Open Air Theology "Debate Review"

Black sheep among misfits A misfit in the trailer park at night

A misprint with the sixth sense Been sick ever since my brother died of an

O .D. My true sense never made sense Either to me or anyone else's side of the sheep fence

My ninth hit on my right side Why you starin' at your cop, I'm the son of my dad

I'm handcuffed on the dotted line Tell me what's the bottom line The bottom line is I'm not right

I'm not left but this elephant won't fight There's nothing left but the spotlight Hold my spear, you can find me in the moonlight

Moonlight If you say what you want, want If you say what you want, put your heart around If you say what you want, want

If you say what you want, want I'm with sin to deep end

And I can't find my assigned seat to sit in My theology don't fit in Black sheep of the

Reformation sheep pen The children formed, I'm just another Baptist Baptized again, the bastard child of Anabaptist Posted child of Reformation society

We don't need your education Give me a bible and a bookshelf of dead men

Cigars, bourbons, and beer cans Bow ties, tattoos, and bearded men

Making Reformation great again If you say what you want, want

If you say what you want, put your heart around If you say what you want, want

If you say what you want, put your heart around Know you are around me

Yeah, ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Open Air Theology Show. My name is Jeff. I'm one of the co -hosts of Open Air Theology, and I'm also one of the elders, pastor elders of Covenant Reformed Baptist Church in Tullahoma, Tennessee.

If you don't come and visit, we really don't know what you're doing with your life, but be that as it may,

I'm going to pass it down to this this guy right here, Brayden Patterson.

All right, I am Brayden Patterson. I am the pastor currently of Reformed, I almost said the wrong thing, excuse me, the pastor of Valley Baptist Church in Hagerman, Idaho.

We meet on Sundays at 11 a .m. Come check it out. If you live in southern Idaho, it'd be a real blessing to be able to meet you.

However, I'm going to be, my family and I are going to be moving to California to Grace Bible Church in Moore Park in Ventura County.

They meet on the Lord's Day at 1030 a .m. So if you live in that area and you're looking for a fellowship, come check that out.

It'd be a real blessing to celebrate the resurrection of Christ with you. Also, I have a YouTube channel called Reformed Ex -Mormon.

It's a real blessing sometimes to be hanging out with these guys on open -air theology. I'll pass it up to Tom.

I do more than you. I get a longer plug, guys. My name's Tom Shepard.

I'm a member of Grace Bible Church in Burney, and I head up the evangelism team that goes out on the streets to proclaim the gospel.

And we're north of San Antonio. Come out and visit us, and I'm glad to be here with you guys.

Very good. Very good. Well, gentlemen, how was church?

Well, I'll go first. I was driving. I drove back on the Lord's Day. Do not forsake the gathering of yourselves together.

So what is she saying? My wife is saying, are you wearing my t -shirt? No, this is my shirt.

This is my shirt. Take your wife's clothes off, Tom. So we went out to the

G3 conference, the cessationism conference, and hung out there in Oklahoma, and I heard some good preaching.

We enjoyed our time out there. And we drove back all the way from Oklahoma today. It was pretty exhausting.

And so we listened to Jeff online. We listened to our pastor online.

Yeah. And you got fed. Yeah. And then

I would listen to our church online as well as long as another one.

So yeah. So we actually didn't get to go today, but it was still a good Lord's Day. How was your

Lord's Day, Brayden? I actually was fellowshipping with the saints today. So it was great, unlike some other people in this conversation, apparently.

Just got to sit in and have my co -pastor be able to preach today. And so it was a real blessing to sit under him and just hear him speak on Galatians chapter four, verses one through seven, a very edifying text to be in.

And yeah, it was overall a great Lord's Day. How about you,

Jeff? It was pretty good. No, it was really good. Just fellowshiping with the saints, man.

I mean, like I just, I'm just so grateful that the Lord has got the people that he has at our church.

Just the fellowship, the camaraderie. Man, it's unlike anything

I've ever experienced. Like just the love that's displayed, right?

It's fantastic. And now as far as my message, in the moment,

I didn't feel like I was doing well, but I've received a lot. I haven't got to hear my message. I mean, it was definitely a deep, deep topic.

I spoke on John chapter 14, verses one through six, and I pointed out what's clear and obvious, but I also pointed out what isn't so clear and obvious.

And in doing so, it got a little deeper than most, but I've received a lot of feedback from it where people really enjoyed it.

They thought it went really good. And again, I haven't got to hear it, but in the moment, I felt like I was dropping the ball.

I felt like I was eating it, but I'm grateful that the Lord used it either way.

So amen. What we heard was fantastic. It was really good pointing people to emphasizing that he is the only way, that was

Christ is the only way to be reconciled unto the father. I thought it was really good.

And that was, I think we were in Brownwood, Texas. It was a backward. Whoa. I thought it was

Jesus was one way and being innocent from birth is another way to heaven. Yeah, that's what we're going to be talking about today.

Yeah. Hey, how does my mic sound? Do I sound okay to y 'all? Am I clear? That's what

I'm saying. I'm here. I got animals. I mean, I got the crickets and everything. Do you have a microphone plugged into your, your device?

My microphone is this right here. Can you take that off? It's a, it's like, let me try.

I might not sound as good. Not saying that I sound good, but I know

I've got one of those voices that, you know, you just heard. Oh yeah.

I hear crickets. You're good. Can you hear me better? Yeah. Oh, it's better.

I'm talking right now. Can you hear me? Huh? Oh, wait, what? Listen, I've been standing.

I don't want to hear it. I need some new besties. Tom has his besties.

Okay. Man. Hey, listen. So what we're smoking, we already have a question.

I'm smoking a diamond crown Maduro. That it's, it's some good stuff right there.

What are you smoking, Jeff? I'm smoking a joy. A what? A joint. Yeah. Joy.

Joy. You're not allowed to do that as a pastor. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, we're, we're formed.

Okay. Yeah. We don't call something saying that the Bible don't call sin. No, that's right.

Yeah. Right. I knew it was coming. I don't got much to hide behind, but I'm hiding behind those little hands.

But it's really fun. You guys are ridiculous.

So how many people, I mean, put a, put a comment in the, in the section. If you heard Braden's uh,

Braden's debate. Yeah. If you heard the debate that Braden did, where he just mollywop

COC. Yeah. Put it in the comments. Let us know what you're working with. That's right.

And if you didn't watch it, finish watching this and then go watch that. Yeah. If you didn't watch it, listen, you're, you're about to get open air theology discipline.

Okay. I mean, we just, the very first thing, the very first thing when

I, when I get done with the debate, I talked to my wife, of course, Emily, and then I went and called these guys and these guys tell me

Braden, before I even tell you if you did good or not, you look dumb wearing a button up in a tie.

They didn't even compliment me on the debate. They just started rifting and hating on the, my outfit.

It was messed up. Well, we're open air theology. And I mean, I'll tell you how gangster this show is.

Even my wife gets on the debate and says, you're an idiot. You're not allowed to use that.

This is, but then I forget she's the, she's the black sheep spouse. So she's allowed to do it.

It is what it is. Not you an idiot, Braden. Oh, I thought she was calling me an idiot.

Well, that's, I understand if she was calling you an idiot. That makes sense. No, she was calling your, uh, your debate partner an idiot, right?

Oh, okay. That really makes sense then. Yeah. Braden also had a whipped cream problem.

I did have that. You come to Texas next week.

I'm making you a Texas ribeye. Oh, Debbie. Wait a minute. That's my ribeye. Nope.

Listen, listen, I'm a little, I'm a little mad. Okay. I'm gonna, I'm gonna go ahead and get this off my chest while we're up before we get started.

I'm gonna get this off my chest. These two jack legs are going to be together next week. You know, who's not going to be with him?

This jack leg, right? They're going to try to call me and want to know what they're probably wanting to try to call me.

They probably just forget all about me. So we're not having this tomorrow.

We're not going to be absent. No, we're next week. We're going to be right here and we're going to be next next week.

I'm still mad. I'm still mad. You should be so mad. We probably won't actually have time to call you because of all the fun activities.

I know all the fun y 'all going to be having. Get on my nerves. So we get to go.

We're going to go do some evangelism. How do you say Jeff ain't nothing without saying that he ain't nothing by y 'all hanging out together all week.

Yeah. We won't be able to call you to tell you ain't nothing. I'll be over here hanging out.

Oh, chop liver. We offered you to go hang out with some other friends and you weren't you didn't like those suggestions.

Listen, listen, get on my nerves. Fair enough.

What were you saying, Tom? I ain't saying that. My beautiful fiance is in the chat.

Hey, baby. Oh, order a stiletto. What the heck is what y 'all doing?

Tom is just a top liver. Top of the chop.

Still gross liver. A liver is gross. I'm just letting you guys know. I'm pretty sure. Yeah, I don't touch it.

OK. The only time I use liver is when I go catfishing. OK, I'm pretty sure that's like an actual judicial ceremonial law for the church is not to eat liver.

I eat liver. It's oh no. Tom, do you really? Yeah. By the way, we're on carnivore here.

Here we go. Look at that. I'm getting ready. I got a new bestie.

Braden, tell us what the debate was about. What was the topic of the debate? Well, first of all,

I'll first come on to how the how it came about. I got hit up by Marlon.

I think it was Saturday last week. I think saying, hey, will you be interested in doing a debate on the topic of our babies born with a sinful nature?

And so I was like, well, I think I can make that happen. I got a lot of stuff going on next week, but I think

I can make that happen. And so I ended up telling him, yes, I believe on Sunday last week. So seven days ago.

And so in reality, between work, I had about four days to be actually able to prepare for this.

And I'm also trying to do a seminary class right now that I'm getting through. So I didn't get a lot of time to debate for or to prepare for this debate.

My opponent's name is Joshua Rodriguez on that debate. And he had,

I think, months to prepare for this. The other gentleman that he was originally supposed to debate backed out because of I'm not 100 percent sure the reasoning for it, but something came up and he wasn't able to do it.

I'm happy I got to jump in. I think I did well for four days of preparation.

I was happy about it. Yeah, I thought you did good. So are babies born with a sinful nature?

What do you guys say? Well, they're born in Adam. So, you know, through Adam, all we all have died through Adam, because when

Adam sin, he brought into the world sin and death. And as long as there's death, then there is sin.

And as long as there's birth, there's going to be people born with that sin nature.

Therefore, we are going to die. The wages of sin is death. When it comes to an infant, as long as infants die.

All right, well, an infant hasn't committed a personal sin in order to deserve death. So how is it that infants are worthy of death?

There is because they are born under the federal headship of Adam. Now, is that easy to swallow?

No, but good theology isn't easy to swallow. So he contradicted himself several times, too.

He was talking about how God wouldn't wouldn't punish an innocent person. And then and then he explained he tried to explain away the punishment, you know, on or the judgment on Sodom and Gomorrah, on the flood as well, where babies died.

He contradicted himself several times, basically saying, well, you know, they were innocent. That was based on on the judgment of their fathers, you know, on their father's sin.

So babies were being punished then. But then at the same time, he goes, well, then you can't be punished according to someone else's sin.

All them on that. And he didn't I don't think he knew what to say. Yeah, I think the thing that I think really is bothersome about the whole conversation is that it really does undermine the gospel and what we see with the principle of Christ.

I mean, even in the sense of and this is not something I talked about in the debate, but God appears to Abraham and tells

Abraham in you there will be a sea that will bless the nations. Was Christ inside of Abraham?

Like this is this is this is speaking of federal headship and what brings about things. And so are we in Christ? Well, yeah, because he's our federal head.

Galatians chapter three, we're the heirs of the promise, heirs of Abraham, sons of Abraham, through faith in Christ, the seed singular.

And so I my opponent doesn't understand in this video.

He did not understand federal headship is his presupposition, his biblical systematic of how he's approaching to read the text comes from a church of Christ standpoint that doesn't hold the covenant theology.

And so that is completely foreign to him. And so that's what I was really trying to get to with things is that we have to have a federal head that represents us in one way or another, because Christ is imputed with our sin and we are imputed with his righteousness.

In second Corinthians chapter five, verse 21, that is the teaching. And so if we deny that we fall in Adam, how can we how can we have hope that we are saved through the innocence of somebody else?

What blew me away is when you had when you had said he was he was making the same trying to draw conclusions, saying that if you're saying that all babies are born with the same nature, then he turned it and said, well, then

Jesus was born of the same nature as well. Man, when he said that, I about freaking threw my phone.

So he's literally. And here's the thing. When you when you don't understand who God is, when you don't understand his because he's holy, that he requires perfection, understand hypostatic union, right?

He doesn't understand who Christ is. You don't understand man's condition. You don't understand who God is.

You're not a brother. You don't understand the gospel. And it's sad to say, but but he doesn't understand the gospel.

He's not all that Bible reading. No better off than an atheist.

Yeah, he's no better off than a Muslim. And I'm going to say this and I'm going to piss a lot of people off.

And it's OK. He's no better than someone who is in Judaism. They don't have

Christ. They don't have God. Well, Christ, listen, I made this point today to believe in Christ is to know

Christ. And if you don't understand the hypostatic union, my dear friend, you do not know Christ.

Right. That's right. That's the whole purpose of whenever the God did not turn to Adam and said in a seed, the seed of Adam speaking to the serpent, he said the seed of the woman.

Right. Right. This seed was not going to have a federal head. You're not going to be born of a natural birth in the sense that one man and one woman come together and have a child.

That's right. If Jesus, if Joseph was was truly

Jesus's father, then Jesus would not have been the Messiah. Right. That's right. Under the he would have been condemned the same way as all people are condemned in Adam at birth.

Right. So and that was the thing. I think even Braden pointed that out, just saying he could basically under your system, you're saying that if a baby is born innocent and never sins, then he's going to go to heaven.

He doesn't need Christ's righteousness put on his account because he's already perfect. That's basically occasions.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, the thing that really bugged me about it is that he so first of all, he never said anything in any of the conversations that I had with him or he had with Marlon about using slides.

And so he brings up these slides that have pictures of babies with devil horns on it, second commandment violations with it, things that I was not aware of and I was not

OK with at all. And so Marlon didn't know about it. It took place.

It is what it is. I'm just disappointed that he did that, to be honest with you, because like that would be the equivalent of me making a slide and having a baby dancing on the blood of Christ or dancing on the cross saying, look at how innocent

I am. I don't need the blood of Christ. I'm like, those are just red herrings that are not like that should not be permittable in a debate when we're trying to have a cordial conversation.

Isn't that what he tried to do, too? And I think you had actually mentioned it to Jeff and I before the debate even started that you've seen him do this a couple of other times where he was trying to make the case where, do all babies go to hell since if they die, do they all go to hell?

And you'd pointed out, you'd brought up, you're bringing up an emotional point to look at the implications of something.

That's not what the debate was. It was on, does the baby have original sin or not? A thousand percent.

Yeah. So his question was, do babies go to hell? And that is a question on soteriology that absolutely is tied with original sin and that question on it.

But that being your very first question just shows where you're going with this.

Like you're just trying to make an appeal for the audience to get emotionally charged with it. You're not actually trying to go to the next.

I would have had a lot more respectful and said, let's go to a Bible verse. And I'm going to ask you this first of all, like that would have been totally different that like, just to say, do babies go to hell?

You're making an emotionally charged straw man. That's a red herring. That's trying to get people to be emotionally invested with your argument rather than what scripture says.

And that that's just ridiculous. That's not, that's not good. I think the most outrageous thing he did one besides that was bringing up the fact that you're going to be the next pastor at grace

Bible church and the current pastor who you're going to be, as if he was trying to find some contradiction and there was no contradiction.

It just when he tried to do that, I just couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe that either.

I thought it was quite comical because when he said that, I was like, Oh, he's talking about pastor

Errol right now. And I was like, nothing to do with this conversation.

He wants to. Hey Jeff, do you, do you mind if I play this video of Errol and what he said this today?

He said this today at his church, at the church that I'm going to grace Bible church. Are you trying to make us cry?

This gentleman, look,

Joshua went to this humble man and was trying to use

Errol man. Listen, this humble, gracious, godly man that has been pastoring for 40 years.

Listen to like, just listen to how sweet this gentleman, just the kindness. Listen to this. Yesterday, our next pastor

Braden was engaged in a debate online and it was live from five to seven or something like that.

Francis and I watched it last night. Listen, go to, go to YouTube and put in the search bar, gospel truth, the gospel truth.

That's the name of the people who sponsored the debate and just put in Patterson debate on, on that.

And it'll come up. He's involved in more than one. Just look for the one that was on this fifth. Uh, we'll leave that up for a little while so you can write that down.

Listen, you know why I want you to listen to this. I want you to see how gifted your pastor is. I could not have done that when

I was his age. I could not do that now. He is uniquely gifted with God's word and kind, powerful, bold, but kind.

It helped of course that the position he was debating was correct. And his opponent was sadly doesn't understand the gospel, even though he claims to be a

Christian. But I just, I just really want you to take the time to watch your pastor in action.

Um, wow. Yesterday, uh, our next pastor, that guy to go and try to,

I was just, I was, I think he's speaking too kindly of you.

Like I just, I agree. I agree. Listen, I just, when

Joshua brought him up and thought that like saying something that he would say was going to contradict something, I was going to say it.

No, not at all. And like, that's just, I don't know. I thought it was a little bit off.

It wasn't, it wasn't called for, but thus he did it. And I think it did not work out for him because Errol and I are, we're both reformed

Baptists. So guess what? We're both arguing for probably from that perspective. So I'm not on that.

And, and I, I, I would, I would even bet, I would even bet the arrows probably praying for this guy because he truly does.

Oh yeah. And the gospel. I promise you he is. Yeah. Yeah. He is a humble.

That was, that was underhanded. You know what God means for bad God or what is it good? God, what man means for bad.

God means for good. Good Lord. Oh my Lord, dude, you need to go to bed. I have this person in my speech.

I will say, I will say this. I told you guys earlier, I am from Idaho. I'm a simple man.

I mispronounced Philippi, Philippi. I still don't know the way to say it. And in the debate,

I said, Hey, you can't say Tullahoma. No, it's not.

It's Tyler. I live here. And it's not cow. It's Kyle. How? That's what

I said. Listen, I said, Hey, Auris. And I should have said heiress.

That's my fault in the debate. Stop straining at Nats and trying to swallow a camel in the process.

Hey, what's up, Tim? How are you? How are you doing, Michelle? How are you doing, Debbie? So, well,

I, uh, I have the video of the debate here. I don't know if you guys want to listen to any of the parts that were said by either him or by me addressing.

You know what? I don't even think they're really going to pay attention because we kind of pushed Haps out and brought Tom in and no one even said anything about it.

So what are they going to listen to here? You ready for it?

Let's do it. I'm down. What parts are you going to put? You know, I think the best parts, whatever parts you want me to put, do it where he was asking you questions because you nailed them on everything that he maybe tried that.

Yes. All right. It's coming up. Can I bring up before we go right to his questions?

Can I bring up the time when I asked him, you can do what you want. This is your show. Let me ask him permission.

Fair enough. Fair enough. Look at how handsome Brayden looks though in this. He looks like a dork fish.

I know y 'all are jealous. Were they?

He's got better hair. I believe it's right here. Yes. I mean, clearly he's in a...

Oh no. He obviously didn't have kids, right?

Orthodox. He does have one child. He does have one kid. He's not around him. Well, before we begin, if you're new to this show, we make fun of people and we do it in good fun.

Get over it. Get over it. Yeah. If you're looking for a show that doesn't make fun of people, this is not the show.

That's right. We will play a violin for you at the end of the show though.

It is true. If you can't have fun, what are you doing?

Yeah. What are we doing? I've never heard of a dork fish.

Yes. I mean, clearly he's in a... Where he obviously understands law, right?

I said earlier about that, you know, when we come to our youth. Now you're asking me like, well, he had to look into the law that he's in.

Well, obviously because in his youth, you know, understanding, then obviously he obviously knows that he's sinned, but the law obviously just exposed his sin that was to covet.

So he said, I would not know covetousness unless in the law said, do not covet, right? So he did not know that.

He only knew what he understood was based upon what the law actually said.

And that's how he died. And says in Romans 7, 11, for sin taken occasion by the command to deceive me and by it slew me.

So sin slew him, but isn't the case that he was already born like slain rather than sin slain him after the commandment came and deceived him and slew him.

So, I mean, I don't know how, I mean, if that's your point is to... Yeah. So you're in your thirties.

Let's just say you have high blood pressure. Let's just say you have it and you've never had your blood pressure taken.

Do you know without the blood pressure being taken that you have high blood pressure? No. Okay.

So if I give you a blood pressure machine, what does it tell you?

That I have high blood pressure. Yep. So there was sin. The law came and it showed

Paul that he was sinful previous to the law before. And your argument from verse nine is that Paul was innocent when

Paul saying he was actually sinful before the law came. Well, mic drop.

I don't think what's being dealt with is that he says I'm alive. So it wasn't like he was saying... That got him tripped up big time.

Yeah. Big time. Big time. Yeah. Yeah. That was good. So let me go right to his opening

Q &A part right here, because the reason

I was arguing from that was Romans 7, 9 says before the law came,

I was alive, but when the law came, I died. And then verse 13, it says that the law demonstrated that I was sinful.

So what he's talking about there is that Paul thought he had righteousness, but when he realized what the law was, he realized he was dead and he couldn't be made righteousness.

That's what the whole point of that is in that part. But here is... Hey guys, this is

Charlie with Badass Beard Care. And today I'm here to talk to you all about free sample oil. That's right. Free sample of beard oil.

Talking about sins or righteousness. He's talking about a Jewish system of the Levites and Melchizedek. He's not talking about righteousness being spread to another person or sin being spread to another person.

So I can't... Joshua, you're up for your 20 minute cross -exam, Brayden. Okay. Let's begin our questions.

All right. So Brayden, first question. If all children are born in sin, right, which would be a child or an adult, you know, makes no difference, right?

Then do you believe that it's possible for God to send perhaps my seven -month -year -old or your three sons to hell if God forbid they die today?

I think that that is a question regarding soteriology that I heard you ask in your debate with Ian that I believe is a fallacious straw man and that is being used as a red herring that's not dealing with the fact that children are dealt with or are born with original sin.

However, I will answer your question on this and I will do it in a non -emotional way. According to 1689,

London Baptist Confession of Faith that is fitting with the scripture on this topic. It gives us what scripture also gives on the topic is that there's always one means of salvation for all people, which is being born again and having faith in Jesus Christ alone and it's righteousness of Christ, the obedience, according to Romans 5, that makes a person righteous.

So do children go to hell or to heaven? Ultimately, I don't know. Anybody that goes to hell goes there justly based off of not only their sin, but what the representative

Adam did, but anybody that goes to heaven likewise is represented in Christ. So if a child goes to heaven, according to the confession, according to scripture, it's based off the righteousness of Christ.

So he brings up my children, my children, like that's just, that is not cool to do in a debate.

But at the same time, it worked against him too. It did. Yeah. It definitely did.

You want me to just let this play, Tom, and we can talk about things or what is there a place in there specifically you want to look at or what?

So, yeah, I'm trying to think when, when the question came out, does God, does

God, does God kill innocent blood? Can you, do you know where that is specifically?

Ooh, that was a question he asked me. That was a question from, it was at the, it was one of the audience.

Even if none guy asked it. Oh, look at that. I just got it. By the way,

I just, I just put it up and I got it in my first click. There you go. Okay.

This is good. All right. And listen to both answers. Um, well, it's not for Joshua, but it says for both, uh,

I guess every question for both is so capacity, but anyway, anyway, does

God kill innocent blood? Joshua does God kill innocent blood right now?

It is a time of war. You need a better, uh, many of our family members want to pay for a premium.

We read in Jeremiah nine five premium. We don't play that killing innocent blood in regards to now,

I guess what he's trying to say is that when God killed certain nations where children involved, well, that was a consequence of their parents, what they did.

So they died because of that children weren't committing sins. Therefore, that God was killing them for that.

Like me, if I was born to a mother who was a drug addict and I come out deformed, that's not because I somehow inherited her saying that I'm a drug addict too.

No, it just is a consequence, right? Just like in Jonah, when the, when the ship was being wrecked, the people were saying what's happening, who's causing this.

It was a consequence of what Jonah did. And so people in the boat happened to be part of the situation, the setting where they had to, had to pay for Jonah for what he was doing.

So no, God does not kill innocent blood in regards to, Oh, I'm going to kill a baby because you know, they're a devil.

No, that's not how he works. As for, um, David, when the, when his baby died, it was a consequence of what

David did. It wasn't because God set forth just to kill that baby. That that's not the case. All right.

Uh, Brady. Yeah. So Joshua just essentially became a believer in original sin.

He said that the babies were dead, were able to be killed because of a consequence of their father's sin.

And he quoted earlier from Ezekiel chapter 18, saying that innocent people from the children of a father shouldn't be put to death because they are innocent.

Um, he has just contradicted himself and he's closer now to the line of original sin, which praise the

Lord for it. Uh, this is dealing with federal headship. Uh, no one is righteous. No, not one children are not righteous by nature and they are only made righteousness, righteous through the federal headship of Christ.

I agree with no, uh, Joshua. Uh, I would also look at Jonah and I would also talk about Noah in the regard of his boat.

According to Genesis chapter seven and Genesis chapter eight, it says that they were able to enter the arc based off of Noah's righteousness.

And so why did only seven people, uh, not including the Noah, we were able to make it through the because Noah was righteous.

Uh, God does not kill innocent people. He kills people that are sinners. And the only time that an innocent person has died is

Jesus Christ. Uh, praise all praise and glory to him. So here's the thing on that.

And you, you, you ripped him on that because if, if, if a baby is innocent and doesn't need the blood of Christ to cover his sin nature, to cover his sin, guilt,

Christ need to die. And you know, one of the things that you didn't bring up and everything, you know, when you look at the abortion issue and stuff like that, and why are we opposed to abortion?

If all these innocent babies are going to go right to heaven anyway.

So Tom, I wanted, I was thinking about asking him that question. I didn't, because I didn't want to stoop down to his level of asking the fallacious reasoning argument, like he did.

I, I, oh, fair enough. I almost asked him that because if he believes that if a child is born innocent and they get a ticket to heaven, in that sense, they get to go to heaven based off their innocence, not off the blood of Christ, based off of their innocence.

Listen, an abortionist has sent more children to heaven than Jesus ever has because he hasn't sent anyone to heaven.

That's right. Yeah, man. If your theology allows for that kind of reasoning, you got issues.

Yeah. Yeah. Anybody, anybody who thinks that they could have a relationship with the father outside of Christ is not a

Christian. It's not, you're not a Christian. Nope. It's a works -based salvation and you can't get there.

You can't, the standard is too high. We've discussed this numerous times on different shows.

Numerous times. Yeah. Thinking of where would be another good place to go to, to talk about stuff.

I think her name was Dineen. I don't see her on tonight. Did it come before your question or after your question?

It was after mine. It was after yours. Oh, right there. Found it. That's it.

All right, everybody. I'm sorry. You're gonna have to watch another ad and these ads do not help open air theology.

This is, these ads are not paying us money.

No. All right. So we go jam through a couple of these questions here.

And this question comes from Dineen. Oh, thank you Dineen for the question. Question for Joshua. If we are not born with a sin nature and are only prone to sin, can there be a person who never sins?

That was the best question of the day. Great question. Yeah. Yeah. So again, we're not born prone to sin or prone to goodness.

Like Adam and Eve, they weren't born to goodness or to sin. They had to make that decision for themselves.

They had no knowledge of good and evil. God gave them a command to me. If they had a promise to goodness, God wouldn't have to give them a command.

They would just do good all the time. Could you stop it right there? So according to him,

Jesus is plan B. Yes. So according to that logic,

Jesus is plan B. Yeah. That Adam and Eve messed up and God and Trinity were like,

Oh, what are we going to do? We just created this people. We, we created this world. We've done all this stuff.

What are we going to do? And Jesus is like, send me, send me. Like this is absolute garbage.

And then just in hopes, I hope they make the decision, you know?

Yeah. Yeah. And I think that goes back to him being, he is a Pelagian. And so he undoubtedly doesn't believe in God's sovereignty.

So that, I mean, this is where I made it in my introduction statement. I said that by denying original sin as Joshua, Church of Christ members and other people along those lines of theology do.

It introduces fatal flaws into your theology regarding other essential areas or other very important areas within theology.

And God's sovereignty is affected by how you view original sin. One thing that I don't think he says in this part right here, but I would just bring out as principle,

Joshua believes that death could have taken place without the fall.

In fact, he believes that Adam and Eve were going to die without sinning.

So the issue with that is then death was a part of God's original created order, which means it was called good, which then first Corinthians 15 calls death the last enemy, which is not good.

And then there'll be a saying that will come about, oh, death, where's your sting? Oh, death, where's your victory? If we say that death could exist prior to the fall, then we have to also acknowledge that death could exist after the resurrection because it's a garden state.

There's no hoping system. There's no hope in this plan whatsoever with this. And that's where the idea that we are born innocent like Adam and Eve is undermining the need for Christ.

It's undermining that need. Let me ask you guys this because I'm not too familiar.

I mean, he's one of the first persons that I've actually heard on church of Christ. Is he an accurate representation of what church of Christ believes across the board?

Yes. A church of Christ is what you would call a radical biblicist.

So by definition, we as Baptists are biblicists in a sense, right?

We want our theology and our doctrine to derive from the scripture. A radical biblicist would say only the

Bible. Like it was probably a couple months ago, I had this guy that I met doing open air preaching reach out to me, wanted to have coffee.

And so I went to have coffee with him and he brought his Bible. He said, listen, I am not a part of a church.

I just read my Bible. And then we started having a conversation and he sounded very church of Christ to me.

And finally I got him to admit he was a church of Christ. He asked the question, he said, if all you had was a

Bible, would that be good enough? And I said, all I had was a

Bible. Yes, that would be great. It would be fantastic. However, that is not all that the

Lord has given to us, right? Because it's one thing, and I've been saying this for about the last week and I think

I even mentioned it in my sermon today. It's one thing to have the words in the

Bible memorized, right? It's one thing to know the words that are in the

Bible. It's quite another thing to know why the words are in the Bible. That's right. And so we have a such thing as biblical theology, historical systematic theology, but more specific historical theology, right?

Dealing with what was taking place at the time that these words were written because everything that was written was written for a purpose.

And it's the job of the exegete to get into the words of the scriptures, to understand the context of the scriptures, but also to understand why

Paul wrote this book or Peter wrote this book or Isaiah wrote the book of Isaiah, right?

Why were these particular words given at that particular time? That's right.

You don't know that if all you have is just the Bible. And so would it be sufficient if that's all we have?

Yeah, I mean, okay, but that isn't all we have and we need to use all that we have. So someone like a church of Christ would say, just give me the

Bible and only the Bible. I don't need to know why these words were in there. I just need to memorize these words, even if they contradict everything else

I say. To Jeff's point there, let's go in the video where he brought his opening statement because he cherry picked verses.

Yeah. Do you want me to come back to this part with Daneen here in a moment? I mean, did we hit it?

We got through part of his answer. Do you want me to go back to find his introduction? Let's finally finish that and then let's go back and listen to how he took verses way out of context.

Obviously Adam chose through his free will to choose evil rather than the good. I mean, again, this defeats the depravity because Adam didn't have a sinful nature yet.

He chose evil. Why? Psalm 78, says that we are just but flesh.

God remember that they were just flesh. Hebrews 2 .7, we are made little lower than the angels. Proverbs 1 .10, sinners entice us.

Genesis 6 .12, we corrupt ourselves, not that we're born corrupted. First Peter 1 .14,

we're ignorant. That's the thing. Like we were born ignorant, just like Adam and Eve were made. They didn't have the capacity.

I mean, they didn't have the understanding of good and evil until God said, here's the command, don't do this. And they did the opposite.

So, I mean, no, we don't have proponents to evil or good. And no, we're not born in sin. Yeah.

Stop right there. Yeah. That's a good example of what his introduction was like. Just Bible verse after Bible verse after Bible verse, which he is in his mind, undoubtedly thinking, oh, this means

I won the debate because I talked about Bible. No, you're taking things out of context. Like, that's like, that's like me just reading little snippets of Kamala Harris and saying, look how great she is.

Like you need to know context before you can determine if this is a, it is true in the way that you're interpreting it.

Right. And, and, and I think you brought up to the point, I mean, you, you did a great job in Romans seven or in Romans five, where you were talking about, well, basically you're, we all have a law written on our heart.

Number one, we are without excuse, Romans one. I mean, so, so it's not ignorance.

We're suppressing the truth. You know, that's, that's what sin does. Yeah. Let's, let's go back and listen to him.

Yeah. His introduction then. Yeah. You guys ready for baby devil?

Baby devil. Yeah. Oh, we got second commandment violations in this one, everyone.

So you think, you know, wicks, do you really, you really know that first up we've got shake.

Okay. Now friends, if God were going to tell us that man was going to be born in sin, that would not Genesis three, be the place to do it in Genesis three, 16 to 17.

It says unto the woman. He said, I would greatly multiply that sorrow and that conception and sorrow should not bring forth children.

And unto Adam, he said, cursed is the ground for thy sake and sorrow should not eat of it all the days of thy life.

Now we read where ease pain was going to be multiplied. And we read where Adam was going to have to work harder from the ground, but nowhere do we read where God said, also, your children are going to be born sinners.

So who added this additional curse? Of course, Adam's sin had catastrophic consequences for the human race, but his sin did not lead to a redesign of the original prototype.

Since God's workmanship still remains as good as ever. Deuteronomy 32, three to four and James three, nine and Jane.

And in Genesis four, one, it reads and Adam knew Eve, his wife, and she conceived and bear Cain and said,

I have gotten a man from the Lord. Now, after being expelled from the garden, Eve gets birth to a son. And as the psalmist says, low children are a heritage of the

Lord. And the fruit of the womb is his reward. Psalms 127, three. And I am fearfully and wonderfully made.

Psalms 139, 14. But if children are born and made simple, then what reward is children to parents?

And how can a child be described as wonderfully made? Going back to the garden, God made man after his image and observed all his creation that it was made very good.

Genesis 127 and 31. And yet, even after the fall, God still continues to make man after his image and upright.

Genesis nine, six, Ecclesiastes seven, 29. Now we just read that Cain was the first child born after the fall.

So wouldn't Cain be a great indicator whether we are born simple or not? In Genesis four, six to seven, it says, and the

Lord said unto Cain, why art thou rough? And why is that countenance fallen? If thou doest well, shall thou not be accepted?

And thou doest not well, send life at the door, and unto thee shall be his desire. So I think

Jeff and I were discussing this and I'm going to put Jeff on the spot here. Maybe he'll remember it. When we were talking about, you know, all men were created in God's image.

In Genesis five, three, it says, when Adam had lived 130 years, he fathered a son in his own likeness after his image and named him

Seth. What's the distinction between being born of natural generation right there in the image of Adam versus in the image of God in the previous verses before that?

So I take the position that Adam alone was born, well,

Adam and Eve were created in the perfect image of God.

And when it says that Seth was created in Adam's image, I take the position that Adam, the image of Adam is the imperfect, it's the broken image of God.

So here's what I would say to prove it. So if you would turn in your Bibles to Romans, you want, man, listen,

I opened it right to it, baby. Feels amazing when that happens.

Oh my goodness, that just happened. Because a lot of people, this isn't,

I don't, it's not a new interpretation. There are other people who said this. So my wife thought that I came up with this interpretation and then she read

J .C. Rowell's book on holiness and she said, hey, he has your same interpretation. I said, woman,

I'm not making this stuff up. This is huge. This really is big. Yeah, this is big.

All right. So in Romans eight, verse 29, it says, for those whom he foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his son in order that we might be the firstborn among many.

All right. So let me put it like this. So are you saying that we're created in God's image, but we have to be conformed to the image of God?

We're created in God's image and we need to be conformed to the image of his son, who is God. And so after the fall of Adam, not only so, you know, like the whole idea of being born in Adam's curse, his descendants are the broken image of what he was created in.

And what I like to do is I like to think of it as a mirror. So let's just say that everyone who is born, they're born a broken mirror.

And this mirror is a broken image of God. Right. All right. And it says that we are being conformed to the image of his son.

And my understanding of that text, if you keep reading it, it's speaking about the resurrection of the dead. When you and I, as Christians, are raised from the dead with our glorified body at that moment, we are the perfect image of Christ.

Absolutely. All right. So when we're born, we're born broken. We have a broken, marred image of God.

Right. There's cracks in the mirror. Right. You can see it, but there's defects. It's cracked.

All right. And so for the believer, as he's being conformed to the image of God and his sanctification, those cracks start to heal themselves.

And at the resurrection, he comes up. It's a perfect image of God. It's a perfect mirror. For the unbeliever, who was born with that same broken mirror, as he's living his life, not being sanctified, not being conformed, that mirror, those cracks start to get all the more.

So that mirror is starting to crack all the more. And when he raises from the dead, it's dust. In other words, he stays in the image of the broken.

He comes out of the ground, the perfect image of Christ. And that, I mean, the perfect image of Adam, which 1

Corinthians chapter 15 is teaching. 100%. That's a huge,

I love that. That's awesome. Good stuff. I'm here every Sunday night.

So come check me out. I think we have an ad for you here soon. So Jake, I don't know if this is, if it's, he's saying that Sam just said, doesn't that look like LDS pictures?

And Jake just said, it actually is.

I know that awful art style anywhere, LOL. I don't know.

I want to know if this is going to be confirmed or not. Was Joshua using JW or Mormon pictures to describe this?

Well, I mean, there's Cain right there. I've seen him before. I do want to address though, too, like in his argument of Genesis 4 .1,

that today I've got, I've gotten, I've born a child with the help of the Lord. Listen, this is a mother who's holding her first child ever, and she's praising

God for it. That doesn't mean that the child was made innocent. That doesn't mean that at all.

And especially, especially does Eve know if Cain is, Cain, baby in her arms, does she know that Cain's going to go kill

Abel one day? No, she doesn't know what he's going to do.

So what was the promise right before this text? Eve, through one of your offspring, the serpent will be crushed.

There is a potential that as Eve's looking into Cain's eyes, she's thinking, maybe this is the son.

Is this the son? But no, she was holding a viper in a diaper that would go and kill

Abel, the one that was making a righteous sacrifice. Yeah. If you don't get this and you don't see this in the

Bible, man, you are lost. Yeah. Good stuff.

All right, I'm going to hit play. I shall rule over him. As for what

I understand, those that uphold the doctrine of born in sin teach that we are utterly indisposed, disabled, made opposite to all good and wholly inclined to all evil as a consequence of the fall.

Yet while Cain's sacrifice wasn't acceptable to God, can someone explain how Cain was trying to offer to God so that he would be pleased?

Furthermore, the fact that sin lurks at the door seeking an opportunity to come in proves that sin has no power over us unless we allow it to.

More importantly, God also told Cain that he is capable of living right and that we can rule over sin. Stop.

Now, it's said that our intellect... Okay, rewind that. Go to Romans 6.

That was weird. Back up a little bit. He basically said that a person being born has power over sin, that they choose whether or not they can sin.

So I went back 15 seconds. Let's listen if I got that. Furthermore, the fact that sin lurks at the door seeking an opportunity to come in proves that sin has no power over us unless we allow it to.

More importantly... Sin has no power over us unless we allow it to. Yeah, that is absolutely crazy.

So Romans 6, let me try and find it. This is talking about the

Christian. We don't have power over sin until we are in Christ.

Starting at verse 10, for the death that he died, he died for sin once and for the life he lives.

So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to Christ. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body to make you obey its passions.

Do not present your members to sins as instruments of unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God, to those who have been brought forth from death to life, your members of God, the instruments of righteousness.

For sin will have no dominion over you since you are not under the law, but under grace.

It wasn't until the covenant of grace was the point in time where you could actually have the power over sin.

Dude. All right. I got to share this real fast too. That was good stuff, Tom, but Jake from your church,

Jeff, dear beloved Jake, look at what he just shared with me. Oh!

This is off of JW .org. Is there a, um,

I don't see where it says JW .org. Oh, it's, it's at the top. I can't show it, but it is

JW .org. I see it because they're clearly, yeah, I see it. It has

Jehovah down here. Yeah. Jehovah's servants. Yeah. It's JW .org.

And that's, oh my goodness. Yeah.

Jeff, correct me if I'm wrong. Jehovah witnesses came from church of Christ.

Is that right? No. So the Jehovah's witnesses came from, uh, the seventh day Adventist.

Charles Kays Russell was a seventh day Adventist. However, it was in the same timeframe as the restoration movement out of the restoration movement came the churches of Christ, which were, were, uh, uh, uh, uh,

Campbellites, but they were really called Campbellites. And then you had the Charles Kays, uh, uh,

Helen J. Ellen J. White brought about the, uh, seventh day Adventist, her, her, her husband, and some other folks and Charles Kays Russell, who was the, um, the, the guy that started

Jehovah witnesses, which were they, they were originally called Russellites. Okay. Was a seventh day

Adventist. Wow. That is great. That is unbelievable that he.

I mean, he is pulling from resource at the same time that his, the foundation of his church was being brought up as well.

That's strange. Heresy begets heresy. Yep. Yeah, that's right.

For sure. Wow. Good find Jake. Yeah, definitely. Hey, Jake's a, he's a smart guy.

Yes, he is. All right. I'm gonna hit play. Maybe. Portland.

God also told Cain that he is capable of living right. And that we can rule over sin. Now it's said that our intellect, body, and spirit have all become dead in sin.

Holy defiled according to the doctrine of born in sin. Uh, Job six 24, Job 26, four says to whom has out other words and whose spirit came from thee.

So my question is whose spirit came from Adam. Nobody's because the spirits come from God. Ecclesiastes 12, seven

Isaiah 42, five. And he is called the father of spirits. Hebrews 12, nine, our human fathers are men of the flesh.

They are called the fathers of my flesh. So our physical attributes like our skin color, eye color, hair color, and many other physical features are passed on from my human parents, but our spirits come from God.

So if our spirits come from God, then shouldn't they be as pure as a source from which it comes. Unless you are saying that God's spirit is also corrupt.

Now, based upon what I'm about to read, I do not know how my opponent and others alike believe that children are born in sin due to the consequence of Adam's transgression.

In Ezekiel 18, 20, it says the soul that sinneth, it shall die. The sons should not bear the iniquity of the father.

Neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteousness should be upon him. And the wickedness of the wicked should be upon him.

You see, after God told the Jews to not use a proverb mentioned in Ezekiel 18, 23, the father.

Okay. Shall not bear the iniquity and you shall die. The one, the soul who sins shall die.

You guys, is, is that not true? Do we not? It is true. We all die.

I brought this out in my rebuttal for just a quick second. One out of one people die, Brayden. A hundred percent, except for Christ.

Well, Christ even died, but he rose again. He's the only one that died unworthily of death.

I would, so he just goes on just carpet bombing the audience with Bible verse after Bible verse after Bible verse.

I bring that up in my rebuttal. And I mentioned how Ezekiel 18, he's taking out of context because Ezekiel 18 is talking to Israel about land promises.

So what, what kind of law do you think this is talking about putting the father to death and not the son to death over?

And also is this talking about God bringing death upon these people or man bringing death upon these people?

It's about the nation managing, governing themselves. It's penal code is what this is. This is a judicial law.

So if a father goes out and commits adultery or eats bacon, should we put the child to death?

Should we put the child out of the land with him? No, that's what this is talking about.

However, and I brought this to him in Exodus 34, seven, it says, I will, I will surely not clear the guilty.

I will visit the father's iniquity upon his children and upon his children to the third and fourth generation.

So it seems that when God is the one that can bring injustice on someone, he actually does transcend just the, the father who did wrong, but it affects, and he brings the consequences of those sins to the children and the children's children.

And this is in the giving of the moral law, the second time after the battle, after the, after Israel had broken the law the first time.

And so the, the thing that I found that is very inconsistent in this verse, and I did a terrible job in my cross examination, trying to say this because I couldn't find the

Bible verse. It was the biggest hiccup I had in my cross examination, but the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

So if you're a sinner, you should die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father.

So, so the son will not. So if you're righteous, you cannot be given your father's iniquity.

Neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son. So if the father's righteous, the son can't transmit his sin to the father, the righteous of the righteous shall be upon him.

And the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. Ladies and gentlemen, let me chime in just a second to talk to the chat group.

I just, I just figured out how to add moderators. Oh, cool. I just added three.

So y 'all can figure that out. Go ahead. No, you're good.

So if, if listen, if it's unjust to put a child to death based off the sins of the father, if it's, if it's in just, and I asked him this, is it in just for God to transmit the sin of the father to a child?

And he said, yes. And I asked him if it was in just for the righteous to have their righteousness being imputed to a guilty party.

And he said, well, I don't know if I'd say in just Isaiah 53 and the suffering servant says, surely he bore our iniquity.

He was pierced through for my transgressions. He was crushed for our peace.

Listen, if we don't under, if we, if we think that this is talking about moral law and federal headship, and we're going to say it's in just, well, then

God did something in just when he transmitted our sin upon Christ and Christ's us. We're blaming justice.

And this is the very gospel. This is the gospel. Yes. Yeah. Ezekiel 18 is talking about Ezekiel.

First of all is prophesying and it's with a nation being taken into captivity into Babylon.

And it's, it's saying that it's addressing the people of Israel who are complaining is what the context is there.

They have this proverb that the fathers eat sour grapes and the children's teeth are set on the edge.

And God says, stop complaining about this. Right? He says for your penal code, put a man to death that commenced the sin, not the son and the man, but that doesn't alleviate that God in Exodus, when he brings the death of the firstborn in the house.

Why did the firstborn live in the house? If the father committed a righteous act, right.

That's right. The son died that night. If the father disobeyed

God, right. Look at the pattern of scripture all the way through judges. That's a good point.

When, when Israel continued to, to turn away from the God, do what was right in their own eyes, they would turn away from their

God after idols and it affected generations uh, because of their sin, because it was the consequences of their sins.

And until they repented and called that out to God, it was the entire cycle all the way through judges.

It's the exact same thing that's happening here. So Jake sent me another link.

I think did he use, tell me if he used this picture. If this picture came up earlier, I'm going to share this.

Is this another picture that he used? Uh, I'm not sure. Where's it from?

J Dub's J Dub stuff. Wow. Now is he using it?

Oh yeah. He did it for job too. Yeah. This is job. Yeah. He used another pic. He's using pictures from Jehovah witnesses.

That's absolutely insane. I wonder if he used all of his pictures using any of their content too, by the way.

I'm just wondering. I maybe he's definitely got their argumentative because it was from Joe 26 that he was quoting from.

So I'm looking real fast. Joe 36 day job. This is nuts guys.

I can't believe this. Believe it, bro. Good find

Jake. This is, this is embarrassing for Joshua. Yeah.

Samuel says all are from watchtower. All his pics are from Joe. Wow.

That's I'm going to just say it. Joshua repent and believe in the gospel.

Yeah. Yeah. He's definitely not a brother, man. He's again, I stated this earlier. He's just as lost as any atheist.

Right. Um, I mean, I don't, so personally for me, so I know some churches of Christ pastors that are reformed in their understanding of justification.

Like they don't hold to baptismal regeneration. They don't hold to all this stuff that we see.

I can't name them. Well, excuse me. They're not preachers, churches of Christ preachers.

I can't, I can't name them cause they, you know, they will get in trouble. Um, you know, but I, I've been calling them to come out, come out of that.

Right. So not all churches of Christ are in the same boat.

However, but if you, if you're bought into this system, you're, you're not a brother. You're not.

And I, and I'm going to be honest with you. I really have trouble with saying that the ones that are in it, but that, that, that hold to a biblical justification are brothers as well because they won't come out of it.

Like they, they won't disconnect from it. Yeah. It's like, what do you love more? You know, do you love the truth more?

Do you love your system? Do you love the, the being under the umbrella? Yeah. Do you love the fact that you're getting paid to be a preacher?

Right. Yeah. Listen, get a regular job. Like, like go work at Kroger. Be better.

And go plan a church for sure. Yeah.

That's right. Amen, man. That's nuts. Jay. Good.

Fine. Brother. Good. Fine. How do I need the balloons? I don't know what you're doing over there.

I heard it usually goes, look, I Googled it. I said, why do balloons pop up on somebody's screen?

And it said, it's usually because somebody listens to too much P Diddy. Next Sunday we're doing a

Diddy show. We'll get a mean of Diddy around Tom. Hey, no

Diddy. No Diddy. Oh man. Oh, that's good. We're going to do a

Diddy show. Bring your baby oil. Don't you dare leave the baby oil at home.

Don't worry. I have to fly with an air, air airplane size.

It's only this big, but I'm bringing hundreds of them. So don't worry. Do you want me to hit play or do we want to go somewhere else in this debate?

Wherever you want, man. I'll tell you what I just, I feel, I mean, I'm not sure if y 'all want to keep going with them, but I'm just,

I do. I do want to bring out. I did say something that I really was proud of coming up.

Sorry. If you're lying to Jacob, sorry,

I should've let it keep on playing. That was too good. This is just a part of my debate.

The intro that I, I thought this was a good section here. We'll see on the show.

We'll see in Abraham and Joseph's brothers, how sin manifests in even the greatest men of the faith.

Their stories remind us that this sin is not something we learn or develop later in life.

It is present from birth and a scene. So no, I did not treat my son's sin as a little thing by excusing him as innocent.

Instead, I exposed his sin and told him that he needed to seek forgiveness in Christ and prayed with him right there.

A moment to address sin that could have been missed or possibly reinforced. If I denied original sin, my three -year -old likewise will laugh when he is caught disobeying, lying, or stealing his brother's toys.

And even my one -year -old child will purposely look over his shoulder to ensure that his mother and I are not watching before he tries to do something that he's not supposed to.

Children are not taught these traits, but my children inherited this nature through me because my first father,

Adam sinned. As R .C. Sproul says, we are not sinners because we sin. We sin because we are sinners.

In the infamous story that we all know of Isaac Newton, it is said that while sitting under a tree, an apple fell upon his head, leading to his discovery of gravity.

I want to ask the audience this. If an apple hit his head, what kind of tree was he sitting under?

Surely it was an apple tree. I pray that this will strike my opponent's head today. Why are you a sinner?

Because your family tree goes back to Adam, who was a sinner in need of.

Ah, stop right there. That was good though. That was real good. That was good. That was real good.

That was smooth. This therefore shows the need for parents to pray with their children, the need to teach them the

Bible, the need to bring them to church, and most importantly, the need to call them to repent and believe in the gospel in hopes that they might be born again.

It is unbiblical, illogical, and very dangerous to believe that children are not born with a sin nature, as it elevates their morality to that of Jesus Christ, thus lessening the need for Jesus's obedience and removing the desire to proclaim the gospel to them.

The need for Christ is for all, including children, because all people, including all men, all women, and all children are dead in trespass and sins.

Our only hope is being made alive in Christ Jesus. Boom. Boom.

Boom. Good stuff, Brayden. Safe to say that I think you whooped him pretty bad.

Thank you. All glory to God. I hope that he will be regenerate and have faith in Christ, recognize his own fallenness, and also his federal head's fallenness, and seek the righteousness that is in Christ alone.

Right. Amen. Amen.

Yeah, man. I thought you slapped him up, man. I mean, it's like the pastor at the church.

I can't remember. Remind me his name again. The pastor going, Errol? Errol Hill.

Yes. Yeah. It's like he said, you have the truth on your side.

Yeah. Yeah. You know, the sad part about it, it's one thing when there's pushback from a brother.

It's another thing when you're so dug in, when you're so blind, and everything. But what would we expect an unbeliever to answer?

I mean, he's in the natural man. The natural man receives not the things of the Spirit, because the Spirit is unto him.

Everything that you had said was right over his head. And the sad part about it is being, I mean, hopefully the seed is planted.

He heard the gospel clearly presented. And hopefully, well, now it's up to the

Lord to do his work. And maybe he did. Maybe he will. That's right. You know what else I got a problem with?

If you bring up something about my small hands. Listen, I'm not going to mention your small hands.

Good Lord. I was going to mention only two out of the three of Open Air Theology have done a public moderated debate.

One of us is a sissy. I've been saying this for the longest time. Are you trying to look for a debater right now,

Tom? Yeah. Are you trying to bait a deer? You got him until Brighton gets there.

I'm a chokehold deer and bring it to you and let you debate it right then and there. If anybody wants to do, don't we have some

Armenians that want to do something on Calvinism soon? So Jake, Jake came to me today.

He said that he found these three guys. One of them reminded him of Brayden. One of them reminded him of you.

And the other one reminded him of me. Jake came to you and said, one of them was really handsome.

He reminded me of Brayden. The other ones were a little ditty and get a little, little ugly. Wait a minute.

Wait a minute. I'll tell you whoever that guy was to remind me of me. I'll take that old dementia guy anytime

I want to debate. I'm challenging him right now. Any dementia guy wants to talk to me about.

I challenge Joe Biden right now. Tom, that's a dangerous game because if it's a lose -lose situation, if you win, you beat up a dementia dude.

If you lose, you lost to a dementia dude. Yeah. I mean, it's not a lose -lose. I'm ready.

I'm ready. Get the old dementia guy on here. I'm ready to go.

What are their names? What's the YouTube channel's name or what is it? Jake, are you still on buddy?

I think he's still on. We're relying on you, Jake. We don't know these guys. We've never watched these guys.

Let me go to it. He sent me a link. We don't know these guys. We've never watched these guys. But listen, if three

Armenians want to get on and debate three Calvinists. It's the evangelical

Armenians is what the show's called. Let me, I'll have it.

Let's do it. Post it. Put it on the screen. We get a non -bias moderator.

He's going to send you the picture. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Okay. Yeah. Get it to me. I can get it.

I can get it done. Are you sending it on Facebook? I'm going to put it on the, on this crap.

I had a Joe Biden moment. I'll debate Jeff anytime on Calvinism.

Here it goes. I just sent it. Hey, yeah. Oh dude, that's a good one.

Tom, you should debate JP Uncut again, the Calvinist killer. Let's do it.

That guy's whack. Did you send it? Yeah, I sent it. It's on, I sent it to the

YouTube link. The what? On Open Air Theology. You got to click on Open Air Theology.

I don't know if y 'all know what that is. Hey, listen, how about you do this? Can you go to the private chat in this, this thing and send it through our private chat section?

Well, it'll be easier. So no, I can't. Send him a screenshot on Messenger so he can post it.

I'll put it on my, I'll send it, I'll do it on YouTube. I mean, on the comments on Facebook. On the comments for this video?

Yeah, on my Facebook page. You're losing me right now.

Dude, I don't know how to get you. Braden, do you see the link?

Is it the link? Hold on here. I'm posting. I'm going to private. I got it. I got it. I got it right here.

I got it. I'm up. It's coming. Let me get it all screened up now on my side.

Got to hit present, screen share. There you go. Thank you, Tom. Jeff, do better next time.

Hey, I can only do what I do. Look at these jack legs.

I already know which one I'm like. Which, wait, wait, which one is Braden? The one with the small hands.

Hello, welcome to the Society for Evangelical Armenians YouTube channel. I'm Dan Chapa, and I'm excited to be joined by my co -host,

Chris. Chris, good to see you again, as always. And then also, welcome back to the program.

Jim Pearl. Oh, yeah. Let me have the bottom. I'm all over it. I guess

I'm the dude in the blue. I guess I'm the bald dude.

Reach out to him. We're calling you out. Let's go. Yeah. Anybody know these guys?

Jake had a long conversation. I think if you go to the end of this mess, towards the end,

Jake is interacting with them in the messenger. Oh, cool. All right. Yeah, so right there, there it is. That's Jake.

Getting into a car with a seatbelt, right? It's a manufactured car.

We might have to do one on, I'm sure they're not on millennial either. Well, I'll do any one of them on millennialism too.

I think you need to debate your son on millennialism. Who? Kevin.

Who? Kevin Hay? Yeah, dude. I'll be Kevin Hay on millennialism. Absolutely.

I'll say the number one motive from my experience. Oh, he's going off his experience.

I don't like him. Let's get him. Let's go. And they tried to get away from that fear by claiming that it's not possible.

There's Tom. That seems to be the number one motive that I encounter. That's the number one motive for OSAS, for sure.

Well, yeah, but I think there are more Calvinists that are Calvinists because of one saves always saved than they are for the other things.

There's a comment here that I really think we should share. Yeah, let's share. Yeah, he's coming at you.

He's coming at me and he's welcome to come at me. Two things, Jake. One, since when is doing the wise thing that God wants you to do something to criticize?

I mean, show me in the Bible where you see a prophet or an apostle saying, how dare you?

You think you did the right thing and you did and you did what God wanted you to do.

And we're going to scold you for that. If I burn you, bro, they burned you,

Jake. Jake, you got answered. I'm surprised you're even go to just church still being being an

Arminianist now. Yeah. Marlon's watching.

Marlon, get these guys. We're ready to debate all three of them. We want to do three on three. Open air theology versus some

Arminians. Topic. Yeah.

What is the topic? Topic is who can smoke more cigars?

Hey, they probably smoke cigarettes. What is going on?

Listen, we ain't right, OK? You mean y 'all pastor churches?

Well. They kicked me out yet. All right, so, yeah, let's close out with some questions.

Anybody got any questions? Hey, thank you guys for letting me look at a review of the debate.

I appreciate you, everybody. I appreciate these two guys for watching. I appreciate everybody. You are a part of open air theology.

Don't be thanking me. I'm thanking you guys. Listen, out of everybody here,

I know you're a theist. So welcome, Brayden. Thank you. And thank you to the audience for watching and supporting and praying.

And that was very encouraging. Thank you. Like I said, I only really got four days. This gentleman had months or a month, at least several weeks.

OK, I appreciate the prayers. Thank you, guys. Go ahead now. Continue on with what y 'all were saying.

Thank you. That's what I need to know.

Am I a part of your besties? Well, I have another group chat that I go and hang out with people at conferences with.

And when I'm hanging out with them, I will not answer your phone call. I mean, does that make you guys my besties?

Or does that sound like you guys are my second hand friends? It sounds like we're chopped liver. Ah, all right.

Are you describing Tom to me? I mean, we were literally right behind Virgil Walker's preaching.

Brayden's calling me up. How come you're not answering, Tom? I thought I was more important than Virgil, but apparently not.

I was right under the pulpit. I couldn't answer. All right,

I haven't watched him. OK, yeah. Is Marlon still watching? Hey, there's

Melissa on Facebook. What are you doing, girl? Oh, guys, we should.

We should. So all right. Maybe next Sunday. Let me let me throw this out as a as a. Oh, no. Another Brayden show.

And let's talk about Steven Anderson next Sunday. Did he and Steven, you know what?

You don't know who Steven Anderson is, Tom? No. Are you kidding me?

To the IFB world. He's the guy that debated James White.

He's the guy that stands on top of his pulpit shouting about Calvinism. OK, he's had a huge thing.

He's a he he's very well known, very popular. He's known he's known as the hate preacher is what

I've seen people call him. He just look at Michelle just commented the hate preacher. So, yeah, the hate preacher.

He just had a whole bunch of stuff come out that him and his he's an abusive man. Him and his wife were abusing their children.

They're now out of the house and are blowing everything up. It's bad. But we can talk about Diddy and Steven Anderson and goes hand in hand.

OK, I haven't heard anything about the Steven Anderson thing. Oh, you haven't? Oh, yeah.

I know about it. It's blown up. Yeah.

Another thing we could talk about is what people are calling replacement theology. Yeah, let's let's see what this saying children love

God with all their being. And they may resist themselves. Do children love

God with all their being and as themselves? No, no. Yeah, and I brought

Nicholas out with something I brought out in the debate. Children do not do that. That's a law that's universal.

That's over everybody. Children do not do this. Adults do not do this.

Grandparents do not do this. And that's the underscoring fact that we need Christ. The only way to love

God with all of your heart, with all of your soul, with all of your mind and with all of your strength, according to 1

John chapter three, verse 23, is to believe in the name of the son,

Jesus Christ. Amen. So unless somebody believes in Jesus, they do not love

God. And those who believe in Jesus, guess what they do? They love their neighbors. They love their neighbors as themselves.

True believers in Jesus Christ do not have a dead faith. That was a great question.

Yeah, go check out the debate. Great question. I've already got a thumbnail that I'm going to make for next week.

It's going to be Diddy and Steven Anderson holding hands, holding bottles of oil. It's going to be all awkward.

Steven Anderson is going to be standing on top of the pulpit. It's going to be good. I can't believe you don't know who Steven Anderson is,

Tom. Well, I'm sorry. I do think less of you now.

You didn't think much of me before. This is true. He's the guy. He's the guy that like has the

UP sitting down. If you pee sitting down, you're not a real man. Oh, my gosh. What?

Size of this tarantula. Oh, my gosh, dude.

I don't like bugs. I'm not coming to Texas. That thing got carried right in the way.

Dude, that thing's bigger than my hands. I'm telling you. I'm sitting here, sitting here. That's not saying much.

Big bug, big spider. I think we have a question here. Let me pull it up. No. Let me look.

Do you guys believe that a man can turn God away when he convicts them of their sin? So. Yes.

Well, is it convicting of their sin unto salvation? Like, is he calling them? Because in John five, he says, all that the father has given me,

I lose none. And he says that if you were called, he will surely raise you up on the last day.

So if the conviction of sin is coming about from the Holy Spirit calling you, then no, you can't turn that away because you will be raised up in the last day.

However, God can use sin or can use law to convict people and they can become more hardened.

So I guess it just depends on what you mean by that question. If it's the way that I was taking it was from the point of view of a

Christian. So a Christian who has fallen into sin. So can you can a person?

Well, he's not going to. So I think the Westminster Confession probably. Yeah. Westminster Confession says that we can we can fall hard, but we will not fully and finally fall away.

You know, the six. Westminster. Tom, what are you doing? You Presbyterian. What is going on with you today?

What the heck, man? You hang out with your besties too much and look what happens.

You're a Presbyterian now. I'm not a Presbyterian. You just. We have the second

London. The superior confession of faith. I'm a.

Am I not? Oh, jeez. You want to debate? Is that what you want to do?

No, we not fully and finally fall away from if we are already had too much.

Now, I did believe that someone. So so just to give a football term, I believe that that a

Christian can stiff arm the Holy Spirit in the sense that he can he can. So like in Galatians, where it says that you what does it say about the

Holy Spirit? You have a degree in the Holy Spirit. Are we speaking to Christians who are listening to false teachings through the

Judaizers? So when he says that you have agreed the Holy Spirit, what he is not saying is that you're no longer a

Christian. He's just saying that you're you're not listening to the Holy Spirit. Right.

And so and so a person can be in sin and be convicted by the Holy Spirit and continue in sin until the discipline of God comes upon them.

It's one thing to be convicted by the spirit. And then there's quite another thing when

God uses that rod, his rod to discipline. Let's hear what the

West Minister says. Go ahead, Tom. Wait, what does he say?

No. So she knows it more than better than you. So so cannot.

He says, I'm asking, can a man decide not to be saved? Oh, no.

That's what he's asking. The now. Where's that at? Where's that at? Irresistible grace.

Did he put that up there? Yeah. I didn't see it. That's where I'm saying it just depends on what way he's asking the question.

He's asking if it's unto salvation, meaning that the call of God for you to come unto the son.

But God has called sexual sense. God determines. So let me answer it this way.

If God determines to save you, Fred, can you thwart his will? And no, you cannot.

It's impossible. If God is calling you unto himself, you will come. You cannot.

You will have you will have a new heart. You will have affections all done by the Holy Spirit.

Ezekiel 38. What is somebody else saying? No, Orthodox MacArthur just said something.

What did he say? He said, if Anderson gets charged, he could be sitting down.

Sorry, that caught me off guard. Listen, you got to pay attention to what we're doing. I know that would just got me.

Oh, my gosh. Snack it with your

Westminster confession. There ain't enough weight.

You guys see that thing? Tom, I'm not going to come to Texas if you don't kill that thing. In your bed.

I'm going to have to go take a shower. Shut up, don't you dare answer that. We're just going in your room when you get here.

I will kill an axis deer and put it in your bedroom if that happens. Yeah, so concerning his question,

I think you also need to answer the question. What does it mean to be saved? Right, so to be saved, salvation, the root of it means to be rescued.

Right, so if a kid is playing in the middle of the road and the car is about to hit the kid, and I run out in the middle of the road and grab that kid out of the road and keep the car from hitting that kid, in one sense, you could say that at that moment,

I was that kid's salvation. I had rescued the kid. What are you laughing at?

He's gone. Hey, Marlon, what's up?

You're making fun of me, Marlon, like always. Anyways, a big problem in Christian circles is they don't understand what it means to be saved.

I had a guy walk up on my porch one day, he didn't know that I was a Christian, and he asked me, he says, are you saved?

And I turned around real quick. He's like, what are you doing? I said, saved from what? Is someone trying to kill me? He says, no, have you received

Jesus Christ as your Savior? You can pray this prayer. And I was like, get off my porch, you idiot. Anyways, to be saved means that you have been rescued.

All right, and if that's the term given to us about our being in Christ, it means that we were dead in our sins and we have been made alive.

That's what salvation is. That's what Ephesians chapter 2 is speaking about, salvation.

We were following the prince and the power of the air, who is the devil, who is at work in the sons of disobedience, which is what we were.

But God has made us alive. That's salvation. We have been rescued by the work of Jesus Christ.

And if that's what it is, then there's no way that you can still farm God. There's no way that you can resist that because we were following the course of this world, following the prince and the power of the air.

And guess what God did for those who are saved? He made us alive. He made us alive. And we come to him when that takes place.

We come to him happily and rejoicing because if your eyes were once blind, your heart was once stone and your ears were once deaf.

When the gospel call penetrates and your heart is made flesh, you rejoice and praise and glory to God.

A lot of times people paint the Calvinistic understanding of soteriology in this light of saying, well, we're being dragged.

Yeah, you are. But when you experience it, you are rejoicing. You are so thankful unto

God for what has taken place. I mean, think about, yeah, Lazarus being raised from the dead.

Yes, Saul on the road to Damascus. There's several occasions of people who were hell -bent against God and then

God changes their heart. Now they are totally different. They reject their sin. It's remarkable.

And God regenerates a sinner. Just in case anybody. Yeah, I'm leaving the tarantula alone.

I don't touch it. I hate bugs. I don't like bugs. Go get a blowtorch, dude.

You got a blowtorch? I got it. I got it. I don't think this. Yeah, this. Are you sure that thing's not a dog?

Dude, that would get it. It's huge. I am not going near it. Dude.

Oh, you know what you should do? Does Debbie have any hairspray? Oh, she's got the pump.

She's got the what? The pump. The rave.

Yeah, that thing is huge. I this thing might kill you when you get here.

Dude, you better. That thing needs to be dead before I come. That's not OK, Tom. I will not be to your house during that time.

I'm going to get the Westminster confession and smash it. I didn't want to say thank you,

Marlon. Marlon's watching. So just thank you, Marlon, for moderating that debate. It was a blessing to be able to come on.

Thank you again. Marlon, can you reach it? Yeah. My wife's out here rescuing me.

Stop it, Debbie. Come on, man.

You gotta act like a man. You don't open up theology. It's on this chair.

Give it away. Don't mess with it. Seriously, what are you going to do with it?

What are you going to do with it? What is going on right now?

Watch out, they're hiding in the dark right now. Ladies and gentlemen, I want to publicly apologize for Tom.

All right, let's look. Okay, so he asked that question and then he brings up this verse.

So let's address this verse because he's looking at it in the wrong context. So if you go back, my friend, to verse 35, he mentions, all that the father gives me will come to me.

All right, so this is the context. So in the same way that a door needs hinges to open and shut, we need the giving to the son in order to come to him.

And so we experience our coming to Christ.

We absolutely come to Christ. We absolutely believe. And so what he's talking about right here, as you get into it, he starts speaking in a way, well, especially in chapter six, he's giving euphemisms, right?

Believe, I mean, eat of his flesh, drink of his blood, they're euphemism for believing.

Our coming to Jesus is our believing in Jesus, but we can only believe in Jesus if we have been given to Jesus by the father.

All that the father gives me, that would be an eternity past, will come to me in present time when the gospel is given.

And so you have to harmonize those two truths given to us in scripture.

That's right. I'm sorry, I'm the only...

Listen, it's bad when I'm the sensible one, okay? Like there's something wrong with our show when

I'm the sensible one. Tom's in total shock right now.

I can tell you what's wrong with our show is that it's got Jeff Rice and Tom Shepherd in it. Oh man, what other questions we got?

Uh, what do you look that little behind me for?

You didn't see the thing behind you, Jeff? I'm gonna have to go stand and take a shower, man.

I'll tell you, like if I feel anything crawling on my face... That's not funny,

Michael, Michelle. Good lord. All right, you're crazy.

All right, well, should we end it there? I don't see anything else, so might as well.

Oh, biblical case. What are your thoughts on the biblical case for pacifism? I disagree with it. We're told in the

Bible to protect the innocent and part of loving God and loving our neighbor is protecting loved ones from evil and wicked men.

So if somebody broke into my house and is trying to hurt my nearest neighbor, he going bye -bye.

He's no longer going to live, most likely. Yeah, I'm so glad you didn't say you was going to unlife him.

I just cannot stand that kind of language. Oh, I'm happy you interrupted me.

You're welcome. I do what I can do and I can do it. Yeah, what biblical case?

Oh, the biblical case that people try to argue from is that Jesus says, turn your other cheek, that kind of stuff.

Yep, Jesus says, go thy sword, yep. So, okay,

I take it for a turn. If you think that way, you're saying that they have to get saved right away.

What? He says, okay, so I take it. I don't understand the question concerning the context of what we were talking about.

So salvation, number one, isn't a process. Yeah, salvation is not sanctification.

Right, so it's a process. I think what he's saying is that we could be given to the

Father, or we could be given to this. Grab me if I'm wrong. We could be given to the Son, but that process plays out in time.

It's gonna be in real time, yes. Yeah, so the given takes place in eternity past, all right?

We are called to him in the presentation of the gospel, right?

Whenever that call, man, that's gonna matter. When the call is given, those who have been given, when the call is, so me as a preacher behind the pulpit, and I go out on the street, preach, when

I proclaim the gospel, I am calling man to repent and believe. I am preaching the gospel, calling them to repent and believe.

If they have been given to the Son by the Father in eternity past, if that's the moment when they hear the gospel, they will come to Jesus Christ.

How? In repentance and faith. That's right. Boom. Let's see.

So yeah, so somebody's presented the gospel. God is gonna choose when he's gonna declare that person righteous.

So it's not, again, it's not left up to the man. There's gonna be a point in time when

God will declare that person righteous through faith. At that point in time that he grants that person to be able to, like Jeff said earlier, he makes a person alive.

That person being made alive is being granted faith and repentance. So you were dead in your trespasses and sins in which you formally walked according to the course of this world.

According to the prince of the power, they are the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Says among them, we too all lived in the lust of our flesh, indulging in the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath.

But God being rich in mercy because of his great love, with which he loved us, made us alive.

He made us alive. By grace, you have been saved. And he raised us up with him. And he seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus.

So that in the ages to come, he might show us surpassing riches towards us in Christ. For by grace, you have been saved through faith.

And that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God. So he grants you the right to believe. He grants that, he gives you that faith.

We think people are born again. So yes, we're born into it. Unless a man is born again, he cannot see nor enter the kingdom of God.

All right, so let's move on to Orthodox MacArthur. He asked thoughts on deaconess. I'm against it.

I'm against it. And here's why, because if you're for deaconess, you have to also be for women pastors.

Because in the, I got a little hand raised. Okay, go ahead. Okay. Women can be servants.

They can serve the church in different ways, but they cannot be in the office. The office of deacons.

No, absolutely not. Because if you look at that passage in Timothy, so he addresses elders, then he addresses deacons.

And then he says, and their wives. So the question is, who's the theirs? And so I would take the,

Brayden was, whenever we had this conversation, actually Brayden kind of pointed this out to me, that the theirs, it has to be speaking to both the deacons and the elders.

Right. Or else he's only, so why would he lay out qualifications? You know, so immediately after he talks to the, speaking of elders, he speaks with deacons and then he speaks to wives or women.

So these women have to be the wives of the deacon and the elders. And so there's not just qualifications for the elder, the man's become an elder or the deacon or the man to become a deacon, but also his wife also has to meet qualifications for the man to become either an elder or deacon.

And it's part of managing your household wealth. Your wife is not, if she's gossiping and slandering and doing a whole bunch of wicked things, a pastor is disqualified.

So yeah, everybody, yeah, Orthodox. Oh, so hold on.

So Fred, are people born into hell? Yeah, until God - Born into hell?

That doesn't make sense. So all people deserve hell. All people deserve to go to hell.

Unless God intervenes in a person's life and chooses not to, unless God intervenes and leaves and pulls them out of their sin and makes them alive.

In other words, He will leave them to themselves. They will, He will leave them to exactly what they want to do, which is sin, because they love their sin more.

So until God chooses to save some, to make some alive and intervene them and cause them to be born again, that person is going to go to hell.

And so they will probably leave them to themselves. Yeah, and I would also point out, this is why the active and passive obedience of Jesus Christ is so important.

Because if you leave out, and most people will, they'll talk about Jesus dying for them.

So they speak about the passive obedience. But the active obedience is the one thing that they leave out in which brings this to a fuller picture, right?

He lived the life that we could not live. Meaning that the law that we could not keep,

Christ kept in our place as a substitute. And then He goes to the cross and He dies, taking the punishment that we deserve in our place as a substitute.

If that happens for everyone, guess who doesn't go, excuse me, guess who goes to hell?

No one, absolutely no one. If He has lived the life that you could not live and taken the punishment that you deserve, there is no hell.

Everybody goes to heaven, that's universalism. But if you hold to the active and passive obedience of Jesus Christ, you have to understand that He did this for some, who are the some, those that the

Father chose. We're harmonizing scripture. And that's the only way that you can see it or you're left in a conundrum that you cannot get out of.

So in order to have that position that you take, if you just look at the active obedience, you're going to end up being a universalist.

I had to come inside and pull and grab my chair. My computer was going to go dead. No, it's by grace through faith.

Grace is God. The act of grace takes place in regeneration. In regeneration,

God grants to us faith. I would encourage you to go to the gospel truth and listen to the debate I had with Jason Breda, where I took his lunch money from him.

And I took Joshua's dinner money from him. Tom, don't have no money.

No money. No money. I would like to go back to the question that MacArthur, Orthodox MacArthur asked on it.

So... Hold on, let me find it. What was it? I might've missed it. It was regarding the whole deaconess stuff. He said, but they are by de facto co -servants with their husbands, just not hold the titles in your view.

No, in one sense. So there's no... I cannot stand it when a woman's like, oh yeah, almost like announcing when somebody becomes a pastor, well, it's the pastor and the pastor's like wife, like almost grouping her into this title essentially, right?

That she's the pastor. You see what I'm saying? Not exactly, I wouldn't say, but women can teach in certain contexts.

They cannot have authority over the church. They can't hold an office over the church. A deacon has an office.

So people within the church can serve within the church, but not have that authority over ministry in that sense.

I would also say that women are not equipped to hold that office. For sure. So when we go to Romans...

Is it Romans 16 that talks about Phoebe being a deaconess? Regardless, wherever it is, it says that she's a deaconess.

Tom pointed this out, which I think was expertly done. The government in Romans 13 also is called a deacon, a deaconess, a servant, right?

It's in the masculine. But anyway, regardless, they're called a deacon as well.

And so we are not saying that the government is a deacon in the office of a deacon in the church for the church, no.

So in that context, it seems to be that it's a woman who went and excelled in serving.

Serving, and that should tell us that women can serve in the church and excel in it.

Do wonderful things for the church, serve God in those capacities, but she cannot hold a position of authority such as a deacon position.

She cannot have hands laid on her to be set apart for that office. So Fred asked another question.

Repentance isn't faith, no. Yeah, let me pull that up real quick. Yeah, yeah. Repentance is not faith.

They are the two sides of the same coin. They go together. You can't have one without the other.

You're going to have faith. You're also going to have repentance. If you're going to have repentance, you're also going to have faith. And Jeff has a good explanation on this too.

Yeah, so repentance, so, you know, the Greek word, the root word is metanoia, means to change the way you think.

And the way I like to say it, like my hand can't reach out and grab like this phone holder that I have unless my mind causes the nervous, whatever takes place for my hand to move.

So my mind has to control my hand in one sense. My hand can't do something that my mind ain't causing it to do.

So in repentance, so the initial salvific repentance, I would argue, isn't turning from all sin, but it's turning.

It's you stop trusting in whatever it is that you're trusting in. And you turn to God by looking to Jesus Christ, trusting in Jesus.

You can't turn from something to nothing. You can't believe in something unless you turn from something.

So they go hand in hand. And once a person becomes a believer, right, they stop, like Braden had to stop trusting in Mormonism and put his faith in Jesus, turn to God by putting his faith in Jesus Christ.

When Braden did that, that was given to him by God. However, from that moment forward,

Braden has been repenting of his sins. So initial repentance is also stop trusting in something and trust in Jesus Christ.

And I would ask you to read the Merrill Controversy, The Whole Christ by Sinclair Ferguson will kind of give you the gist of it.

So, and I would also even say that not only that, it would also include turning away from the sins that you love so much, turning in your own self -righteousness, turning from...

Yeah, so the turning from sin, for sure. But it's the initial, like the repenting of sin.

So like, hold on. So I would say it would be an affection of the heart that you're turning away from the sins that God hates, turning towards Christ and following Him.

Turning away from one thing, turning towards Christ. Yeah, but my argument would be that a person cannot turn from sin as an unbeliever.

Exactly. Yeah. I would agree with that. Like, when I became a

Christian, I was still, I wasn't like active, active, but I was still a gangbanger.

Sure. I had to stop trusting in myself. But the affections of your heart, you would agree with that.

Yeah, so the affections of my heart took place then. Yes. And then the life that I live, my sanctification,

God sanctified me. He reveals sin. I turn from sin that's revealed to me. Yeah. And so that's the ongoing process.

The initial process is that you turn to God. You stop trusting in whatever it is that you're trusting in. Me, like Braden had his turn from Mormonism.

I had a turn from me. Like, I was my God. I was the leader of a gang.

I mean, I had a really bad God complex. Only six people could talk to me. Anyone else, they'd get their hands, they'd get hands put on them.

And it wasn't, oh Lord, it was, you know, like I had a problem. I had a turn from me.

I had a turn from the man in the mirror and turn to God. That's repentance, turning to God.

And faith is me trusting in Christ. Yeah, I think when that initially happened, everything else began to change.

Yeah, pull up Nicholas's and then let's go to... I do have to get off here in a moment guys.

Okay, so real quick, Nicholas says, so I might say that the core of repentance is coming to faith, but the connotation of the word emphasizes changing our mind about our sin, understanding our need for the

Savior. Yeah, but you're talking about in a moment when the regeneration takes place, right?

Regeneration takes places is that God forgives us of our sins. So this is, you know,

He sprinkles us with clean water. He removes our heart of stone, which I would say is self -righteousness.

This is our turning. He gives us a heart of faith, which is our believing in Jesus Christ. And He puts

His Spirit in us that causes us to keep His command. Absolutely, yes. All right, and I would say it happens in that order because the

Bible teaches that the Holy Spirit comes to those who believe. Yes. Again, watch my debate.

Yes, I agree. So the Holy Spirit in us causes us to keep His law. That means it's causing us to turn from the laws that we're breaking.

Right. So that's that turning, repenting from sin. It's one thing to have a sorrowfulness for sin.

I mean, that's going to happen in the beginning. But the actual walking it out, turning from the sins, that's happening after you have become a believer.

I would agree. I'll die on that hill. So Fred just said, so you're not like some I've talked to.

I've talked to Calvinists that believe God predestined some to hell and some to heaven. So when you think about God choosing some to have a relationship with Him, that special relationship with Him that He's going to dispense

His grace on a particular people. When you look at that, the opposite end of that is

He's passively leaving the rest to their own sin.

So, yes. Romans 9, it just says that He's prepared some vessels for destruction and some vessels for glory.

And then Paul says, well, what are you going to say? Oh, God, why have you made me like this? And he says, who are you, old man, to answer back to God?

Well, the thing that is created stands to His creator. What does it say? Why did you make me like this?

Thank you. Yeah, ultimately, we're talking about the creator who is infinitely greater than anything that you and I can even think of.

And He created us, meaning that we are infinitely lower than Him, and He still died for us.

So it shows the magnitude of His love for us found in Jesus Christ. But at the end of the day, we have no right to say,

God, why? Right, if God has chosen these four coins, if He's chosen three of these coins to save,

He's chosen to save three of these coins. He's going to choose these three for His own purposes. He leaves the one to itself.

So He didn't intervene in this one's life. He gave them what they wanted. This person right here wanted exactly what they wanted.

They loved their sin more than Christ. He left them in their sin. He chose to save these three.

All four deserve hell, but He chose these unto

Himself. I hate the analogy, Tom. You need to work on that. I hope you don't use that in your future upcoming debate with JP Uncut.

It works. And I'm 75 % richer.

Oh, that's a good point. Good point. All right, guys, I got to get off. Yeah, we'll just go ahead and call it.

Last words. Go check out my debate. If you haven't watched it already, go check it out.

Mon Marlin's channel, The Gospel Truth, go subscribe on there. Also, if you live in the

Ventura County area in California, Moore Park more specifically, go check out Grace Bible Church.

If you live in Southern Idaho, come check out Valley Baptist Church. I have a YouTube channel called Reformed Ex -Mormon. It's a blessing to be on here with these guys on open -air theology.

Seriously, you guys are a blessing. Love you guys. You are my besties, and I do not put you in second place.

I'll now pass it to Tom. Let's hear what you have to say on this topic. I would say to Fred, because I don't know who you are, if you're looking at being a

Christian from the front end and as to whether or not you're saved, everything, dude, repent and believe, and you'll know that God did that in your heart.

Your responsibility is to repent and believe the gospel. Your responsibility is to call on Christ to recognize that you're a sinner and that you need a substitute.

You need his perfect righteousness put on your account. If you do that, instead of getting into the debate, is how does he do that, looking at it from the front end, you will know that you are his because you have faith, because he has granted that faith.

I would say to call on him today if you don't know him. Is that your last words?

That's my last word. You guys are my besties, just in case you guys don't know. You guys are my besties.

I love you guys. I love all you guys out there too. You guys are my besties.

I guess I better begin with that. I can tell you guys now what I'm getting you for Christmas. Don't let me say it. Are you gonna let me say it?

No, it's a friendship bracelet. Damn, I got 70 cypher. I'm shaking. Yeah, so hashtag no diddy.

Because the way that they said it sounded really gay. I would consider you all my besties.

All right. So now that we got that out the way. Now we got that out the way. Again, thanks everybody for watching, checking us out.

We really love interacting with y 'all. It's been a blessing. Some of y 'all reached out to us privately, talking about the show, thanking us.

If there's a subject that y 'all want us to touch on, please reach out to us. Also, remember the conference coming up in February, Open Earth Theology Conference.

So if you go to openeartheologyconference .org, you can register. We're going to have a really good time.

So this will be our third one. And listen, just find someone that's been to one of them and ask them about their experience.

It is the best conference. We're trying to make small conferences great again. Please come check it out, hang out with us.

And if you're ever in Tallahumma on the Lord's Day, please come to Covenant Reform Baptist Church.