Emilio Ramos My Guest As We Discuss the Need for Christians to Be Disciplined of Mind

And welcome to the dividing line. It is a uh tuesday. Yeah tuesday afternoon 17th of november. Greetings and welcome. The camera is all bumped and changed and moved uh so we can make room for you know we have we have we have in studio guests constantly.

Well okay a couple times a year. And uh today uh we have a gentleman who is a very patient gentleman. He's patient because he's put up with me. How long did i stay with you. How was. About five days. About it.

About an eternity. But it's not an eternity at his house. And i know what you're talking about there brother. Later and later in the program we will be talking about uh pig sacrifice and bird offerings uh at the ramos home.

And zombie apocalypses too. Yes yes. But emilio ramos from uh from texas. Um now i i forgot to ask you. How much can we tell people about why you're here.

Very little actually we're trying to you know you know the christian secrets right we keep.

Everything secret so we're working. Nothing shall be done in open. All should be done in secret isn't it. We're working on a project together. Yes yes. That's it huh. That's it. Oh okay all right. So we're working on a project together.

And uh we just got done working on a project together because as soon as the program's over we're kicking them out of here uh and uh. So he's gonna be flying back to uh to texas where uh when they brought me out that was may.

Wasn't it first right. Yeah um brought me out so that i could experience my first tornado warnings uh and tornado watches and going to the middle of a house and and hearing sirens and doing all sorts of fun stuff like that.

So i really appreciate.

You're doing that for me. Well you were under the care of a different church at that time.

Oh well no we we had one come pretty close at your place. Remember if i recall that storm if i recall the the person you're actually famous for because no one knows emilio but you are married to trish.

So that's your claim to fame. She's usually sitting in seats like this. Yes yes. That's your claim to fame. She and lily were in the bathtub. Okay. So that that means the storm was close. That remember.

Yeah. She's always in the bathtub. She just likes to hang out in there. No no no no not not not with the dog. Uh and uh you know like this. Uh. So no. So yeah we had we had a great uh interesting uh time while i was there.

Uh and i also um uh destroyed myself. Uh i think it was first morning i was there.

Wasn't it. I think it was the first morning you were there and it was very early and well early.

For you uh 11 o 'clock in the morning is early. For you uh yeah. So i'm i'm up at you know while you're sleeping. That's right. That's right. I'm working. And early early to bed early to rise is advice that you've never heard.

So uh i got up early. I went running. You thought you. Well i got. I got 472 meters. Uh before i discovered that dallas roads have seams in them. And uh one of those seams grabbed the front end of my left sneaker tore.

It still torn. Well of course still torn today. It's not like i repaired or something. And uh threw me on the ground with the tremendous force. And uh so i come back and i'm bleeding all over the place and and i'm trying to get this stuff cleaned up.

And you know time's passing by man they gotta get up someday. I mean you know it's getting later and later and you know. So finally i'm you know i know what's gonna happen as soon as i knock on the door is lily's gonna start barking.

Which of course she did. And uh so eventually emilio comes out. And he's like you know there's this guy you know bleeding all over the place and uh yeah the the zombie apocalypse that was. That was fun.

Uh found out when i got back i broke my elbow. And then we had. We had a whole conference that day. We did truth and love conference. Yeah yeah. Bandaged up the elbows best i could. Still got a bunch of blood all over the and you ruined your shirt from.

No i managed to get all that blood out. Thankfully cleaned it out. I cleaned it up. I cleaned it up. Yep good. Yep. But uh no we still ended up having a good time despite the tornadoes and despite the fall i still do.

You remember how i forget how many miles i rode when i was there. But uh i rode a fair fair number of miles. Yeah you did. Out there going out toward that panther creek. Panther creek. Yeah panther creek.

Yeah. And that that was that was fun. That's.

Fun. We had a good time. Not as fun as me driving by and seeing you ride that was that was surreal.

And then we and then we had some interesting events there too such as the latent flowers debate. Uh yes that was. Uh that was one of the things we did while we were there. I think the.

Most memorable part of that debate for me was that i got to text you while you were debating and even more important was or more amazing was that you responded.

Yes i am connected. Yes yes yes uh. Don't worry it's it's on silent this time because january is here and uh and is doing very well. Thank you for everyone. So well good. Uh. Now so tell us a little about the church there real quick.

Uh well uh. The church is called heritage grace.

Community church frisco texas. And um our church is that sort of north north dallas north dallas area just north of plano. Uh it's a growing community i mean it's exploding uh the growth.

Have they finished that corner yet. Uh no they have not. Near near the sonic. No no they have not. Have they made much in the way of progress. No they have not. Okay because technically i live in.

You know we're right on the border of frisco and little elm and frisco is a much more affluent city than little elm so if we were just you know a few hundred yards past where we're actually at then that road would have been fixed a long time ago.

But because we're in little elm you know we.

Get treated a little bit. That corner is not really passable in my opinion. I mean.

Wow but we love it i love it. We love the church. The lord's blessing our church tremendously and you know i shared with you because you coming out there we got a we got a couple wonderful families that joined our church so that's great.

That was a that was a tremendous blessing to know that.

That bore that kind of fruit. So that's that's what i always want to hear. That's uh that's really good. So now you've had another conference since then. I believe you had uh. Phil johnson. Remember which.

Oh yeah that one. Uh-huh. Oh yeah that one. Yeah that's our annual conference. It's called the.

Emmaus conference and basically what it is. It's a conference that focuses on christ and all of scripture. So it's very edmund clowney it's very it's very christ-centered. So uh we tackled the book of exodus.

Oh my. And we just really scraped the surface. You know i mean so phil johnson did a lot of the heavy lifting. He i had him teaching four times so you know. And then steven yule was there. And i don't know if your listeners are familiar with steven yule but he is.

He's a tremendous author. He is a tremendous preacher. And um he taught um a couple of sessions. That were.

Really good. So yeah good excellent. And no no uh tornadoes or anything while while he was there.

No it's perfect weather while he was there. Yeah phil johnson got perfect weather. Good so good.

We know who the favorite lord is. No question about that. No question about that. No no i i understand. That's that's that's okay. Well good i i know you um um live down there in texas and i know it's a tough year down there.

I mean the cowboys lost seven in a row. Where are the texans. Are they.

Even on the map i i don't know i mean i don't i don't keep up with football and so it's easy it's.

How can you not. Well you know here's the thing i'm not committed that's that's like being a missionary in saudi arabia and not keeping up with islam. I mean well that's the thing this is texas.

Because i am a missionary to the country called texas yes yes i just you know i i just jump on the bandwagon because i'm not passionate about it either way. So i am i'm i'm all things to all men.

Especially even cowboy fans. Okay all right. I got you i got you i got you all right. Well now before we go on to serious things i we do need to i do need to. Uh you have you have you you are the um the dog whisperer.

Yeah that's something i i uh i do on the side you train and you. And as a part of that somehow you ended up with a very interesting a little puppy. Yeah we adopted a little pit bull.

Named lily lily and she's very very uh introverted because she spent three years in a crate. So when when i got her when i rescued her she wouldn't leave the corner of a house or move and uh we quite a ministry we took on there.

Yeah yeah so but she has become really a wonderful dog because she helps me train other dogs and her demeanor is quite um balanced in that way. She you know i'll put i'll leash dogs together with her and she balances them out calms them down.

They just kind her energy kind of rubs off on on the other dog. So it's but that's a that's that's a that's a fun.

Part of my life. Yeah. Well yeah. I got to know lily a little bit first. She wasn't so certain about about me hanging around but uh i think the bow ties threw her off. I'm sure they probably did. I'm sure he probably did.

Did phil do okay with lily. He loved her. Okay. Yeah he loved her very.

Much. And phil it was really really into the dog whispering thing i mean he watches the shows oh.

So you know you'd have to be a cat whisperer for me. So yeah. Yeah that's right i don't do that so but last thing i've got to ask you you know this is a theological question. But what in your eschatology results in your offering pig sacrifices at two o 'clock in the morning.

What. I i really i you know i'm i'm i'm not even a pre-millennial so i'm not sure which strand of pre-millennialism has the offering of of non-kosher as a dockey and pre-millennialism as a dockey.

Okay all right. All right. But i was sleeping and i started smelling bacon. Yeah. And so i just thought and it wasn't it wasn't a bacon alarm. No it was not a bacon alarm though. That's a fascinating idea.

Uh i wish i had thought of it but but no i i'm starting to smell this very strong sense of bacon in my dream. And then i realized oh no no i'm in emilio's house so it must be getting close to breakfast.

And i i'm starting wondering maybe i overslept because i was always up before you. Anyways. Yep um so i'm like man why did they get up so early to make to make bacon. And it's and it just was overwhelming.

I mean it was just just bacon attack. You know. Um and so finally i i i wake up and i look i look at the time and it's two o 'clock in the morning. And so i i go i go stumbling out uh to the kitchen and there there is the remnants the burnt offering upon the altar.

Yeah. And uh so so what what was what happened was.

Trisha got a she she just got this urge a craving for bacon and she cooked some bacon and she ended.

Up. Uh cooking it just a little bit too much i think she said. She forgot she is a little bit.

Too much you know what i mean. And uh by that time it was too late and you know i couldn't come to.

The rescue. So it was a whole burnt offering. It was. It was a pork burnt offering. I don't know how soothing it was but no it wasn't soothing to anybody. No that was not a soothing offering.

Let's go. Yeah we better move on this more serious thing before you completely shame me out of here.

That was uh one of the more interesting experiences that i i have. Some great experiences when i travel. Those are just a few. I mean we can talk about. There's some we can we can talk about. The cash offering that you got.

Oh yeah. No we don't want to go there. No definitely not. So anyway it was a it was a good time despite breaking my elbow and uh and having scars all over my body now. That are the worst ones that i've ever had.

Um and trisha's posting on my timeline on facebook right now. I can't see what it is but i can imagine we're getting some pictures. Of course because she didn't she took a picture of the burnt offering.

Didn't she. I think she might have. I think she did. I'll bet. I'll bet you the burnt offering. People that are on facebook do that kind of stuff. Yeah. Well her that office thing is right next to where my bedroom was.

And the first night all through the night every time everybody'd send anything. True. The whole night long. Yeah. So facebook is facebook. Is facebook. Yes i get you. Anyway. So i noticed that. Uh you had um written a blog article here.

You told me about called paris and the devil's song. I did not know. Where did you get this information. Uh i forgot the website. But there were actual multiple sites that um that that reported on it.

This is interesting. Although several attacks reported. Let's look at the attack at bataclan concert hall in paris. The concert was in full swing. The band eagles of death metal. The song kiss the devil and it's um it i'm not gonna i'm not gonna.

You know it ends with i will love the devil and sing his song. And this is what they were.

Performing. Yeah they just started going into it and the website actually indicated that this is actually one of the favorite songs of theirs. And uh wow you know the lyrics are very juvenile i mean kiss the devil kiss him on the tongue yeah just ridiculous like a second grader helped them out you know with the lyrics but but that's what they were singing i mean that's well i i have not.

Actually read the isis statement but i know that um our molar read it on the briefing and uh one of the things that was mentioned was the um idolatry being practiced uh at the concert and that this was part and parcel of the uh.

The reasoning is uh you know people talk about the the innocent people who were attacked. Now obviously in the west we use the term innocent to refer to someone who has not been convicted of a specific crime by a court of law and hence is under punishment of the state or something like that.

Or we'll use it morally or ethically for uh a child uh an infant child or something along those lines. But theologically christians should first and foremost recognize that the term innocent is only applicable to one person.

And that was jesus right. Um and yet i think it is indicative of how deeply influenced we are by the culture around us that we can pick up on these these terms and use them in a way that is actually inconsistent with our actual professed worldview.

But is it really our worldview if it does not impact how we think about events in the world. Um i think there are many many professed christians who have one worldview while sitting in church and a completely different worldview.

Well i don't have more one worldview they have one worldview they have a religious veneer at a certain point in time whether it's sitting in church and so you you sort of try to interpret things in a more religious way at certain points in time.

And then when you're not in that uh context then you don't have uh you don't have that kind of religious veneer and you pretty much just think like the world around you. Now what happened was um what i want to talk about today and i'll tell rich you've got someone on uh twitter you need to respond to because uh they're what six months eight months behind now because they're saying how come podcast catchers aren't catching dividing line anymore.

So in other words someone's got a eight month old uh url or something like that because we've been doing sermon audio now for is that how long it's been. Eight nine month may may. Okay all right. Well around there anyway um i was i was troubled by what i was watching um you know everybody went wall to wall fox news etc etc on friday night it started happening while i was actually doing the dividing line but i guess some people wanted me to become a shepherd smith or something like that.

And you know go news stuff even as i sat that night watching the news i knew the majority what they were saying the next day it wasn't probably gonna be accurate you know the the death toll was gonna change and and all it's just speculation after speculation after speculation and there wasn't any reason to do any more speculating especially sitting here on the dividing line.

So i'm watching it that evening and i'm consciously trying to listen to the coverage and to interpret it as a christian as a person considering the lordship of christ issues of sin and judgment and and the the sovereign decree of god and also as a person who just did a debate in south africa tried to do a debate in south africa um on the subject of war violence and peace in christianity and islam.

And and over the next couple days you know i see people putting the tricolors on their avatars and you know i start seeing the pray for france thing and other horrific acts take place during this time in africa.

This kind of thing happens almost every day in syria iraq places like that the media doesn't cover it because it's a different culture but this is paris for crying out loud this is the eiffel tower this is gucci this is whatever.

And all of a sudden there is this in my opinion massive overreaction because of location and nationality rather than who's actually dying why purposes so on and so forth. And so i'm trying to watch all this stuff and i'm trying to i'm trying to filter this through the fact that what i'm seeing from many self-professed christians is either a a full-on emotional response.

Now a lot of people i've i've had people say you bet you bet i god made us emotional creatures so i'm gonna respond emotionally. Hmm all right. Um but the problem is we're we're attempting to consistently apply biblical principles to understanding what the purposes of god would be in bringing such things about now if you don't believe god has a sovereign decree and he's just sort of sitting up there in heaven you know doing the best he can to sort of respond to things is and you know then you're going to view things differently.

But if you believe that god has a purpose in all these things we're supposed to be thinking with the mind of christ and we're supposed to be applying biblical principles um and doing so consistently to the glory of god.

And i think greek terms like sophronous moss um pie duo is has has some some uh some uh syntax uh semantic connections discipline self-control these are things i see. And what would self-control be if it's not self-control including emotion.

I mean we are i do not believe that a mature christian should be a person that is controlled by their emotions. We should have our emotions constantly under control and that makes me heartless unloving unkind unfeeling all the rest that kind of stuff.

I actually would argue just the opposite that if you have your emotions under control you're going to best be able to serve others. You're going to best be able to do what's right and best for them. And that is a deeper form of love than to be constantly uh ruled by your emotions and end up doing things that end up hurting other people.

So that's my apologetic for being scottish. I guess you might say um but i was from the beginning trying to avoid falling into that trap of look when you think of some people in a in a crowded theater tossing grenades and sitting there with an ak -47 at that range um there is you know the first thought in my mind is the absolute cowardice of those men because they know they can do anything want they want there and they're just a level of evil is is difficult to begin to comprehend.

But then another thought crossed my mind has nothing to do with theology it has to do with politics and and culture. Um and that is uh man what if uh what if there were just a few people in there who could fight back.

Um i am not one who believes the bible teaches that we as christians are to be um sheep to the slaughter in that context in self-giving the service of christ called to give your you bet. But in the context of someone if i see someone sitting in a balcony with a with a firearm shooting people indiscriminately right and left and i'm armed i have i have i think i have a moral duty um to demonstrate that i'm a pretty good shot and take that person out.

I think that i have an absolute moral duty to do that. And some people would argue that i don't. I think john piper would argue that i don't. I'm a believer he's an unbeliever. I should be willing to go to heaven because he's he's going to go to hell.

I don't see that in jesus's teaching uh he he talked about the um you know if the if the house owner had known the thief was coming uh then he would have kept the thief coming. Well how are you going to do that.

Uh he told the apostles to you know you know they were going to be walking along uh roads that are unsafe they were to take care of themselves. It's not i don't believe it's a biblical christian thing um to expose yourself and to risk your life.

I think the the commandment to thou shalt not kill includes uh thou shalt protect life. And if i have the ability to do that then i need to be doing that. And in this situation um it is an amazing thing that they could with impunity uh there were only like what seven to nine people involved in these attacks and look at the number of people they killed yeah um that.

Wouldn't happen in texas. Yeah that's the kind of first thing i told my wife. Yeah that would not.

Happen in texas. No no no no in fact i was i was at your house when those guys tried to try to uh get into that uh that uh draw muhammad cartoon thing garland event. The garland event one of which actually lived pretty close to you.

That's right. That's right. One of the guys one of the guys that went to texas just lived just just up the road from me here in phoenix. So um they wouldn't get away with that. In in uh in most places.

Well they would in on the on the east coast and the left coast. Um you bet. But not. Not in texas. Not not in arizona. Uh there would have been people firing back and a lot fewer people would have died as a result.

That's right. Um but that culture has been completely disarmed so they are totally at the uh at the mercy of the state at that point. And the state's only got so many people and can only move so fast.

Um so you know what what can i say anyway. Uh i started thinking about all this because again i started seeing things on on twitter and facebook the bloodlust of certain people. Let's just go. Well yesterday someone once again i cannot believe this someone once again posted bob morris nuke mecca idea.

I'm serious they posted bob morris nuke mecca idea we just need to turn mecca into glass and islam will be over with because then they can't do the five pillars. And i'm just like oh my goodness there is there is absolutely positively nothing i could ever imagine that would solidify the world's muslims more than nuking mecca.

Yeah i mean you you want to change a five percent jihadi population to a 95 jihadi population. That's what you do. And you go. Well destroy the faith. They can't do. They already can't do hajj right now.

Did you know that right now they run the numbers given the number of people saudi arabia allows in to do hajj each year there are more muslims in the world that could ever fulfill the fifth pillar of islam right now there's it's mathematically impossible to fulfill that fifth pillar.

So i've always said what they're going to do is they're going to develop the concept of a hajj of desire just baptism of desire. And so as long as you would really like to do that then that will be considered actually fulfilling it.

You should still try to you know the lottery and so on and so forth. But if a law does not allow you to do so as long as you desire you and that's it that that's all. That's all they need to do. And the idea of destroying that black stone or whatever destroying the religion of islam is the dumbest thing anyone has ever suggested.

There's just no question about. I saw people posting that on my timeline and i'm just like no no no not no no no. And so i'm approaching this from a unique perspective because well unique it shouldn't be unique but i'm approaching this from recognition that if i speak up on this the emotions right now and the only reason i'm being forced to do this now i was still going to leave let a couple weeks pass.

But i i was informed uh today about an article that appeared of all places on pathios. Anything appears on pathios. You might as well ignore it. But um the article appeared on pathios. And um our our uh our lutheran friend um uh posted this uh in regard and the the title that was given here was how christians should not respond to the paris attacks.

So our lutheran friend brother cooper uh posted this. And uh this is why i'm responding to this. This past week has been a very difficult one for people throughout the world. Nearly 150 christian students were killed in kenya and around the same number of innocent people were killed in france due to attacks from radical muslim terrorists.

Muslims terrorists. Um and again i would question the term innocent since these attacks i've seen a number of different christian responses. Many have been overcome with anger and fear. I confess that i felt the same anger after these attacks.

But there was one particular response that i saw shared around social media which was particularly disturbing and i think is worth a response. And then he then he quotes me i am keeping my mouth shut about paris and pray for paris and all the emotions and red white and blue flags and icons and all that stuff have to see.

I would like to discuss the issue from a christian worldview perspective a road that takes into consideration judgment and sin and all sorts of things like that. Well folks wrapped up in emotion tend to dismiss or forget about all that.

So i will wait a while in our day it takes what a week or so before folks move on to something else and emotions die down. Then maybe we can have a meaningful conversation about without about responding to such events in a consistently biblical fashion.

So what am i saying. I'm not going to comment on this yet. And one of the reasons i'm not going to come on this is because of the emotions that this fellow admits he himself had that that he he admits i i felt that fear i felt that anger.

I experienced it. Um this is jordan cooper. By the way i'm sorry i just said mr cooper but it's jordan cooper and this is called just and sinner is the blog on pathios. If you want to wander over to pathios if you can survive wandering over to pathios.

But anyway so after i had posted that someone on twitter had sent me what somebody else had said that's ridiculous. Does that man think he's a prophet etc etc i said i'm going wait a minute. My article said i'm not commenting on this right now.

So if you say i'm not commenting you're commenting. Nobody took up what i actually said. And it is man there's a lot of emotion here. I didn't have anybody defend the idea you know what. And christians should just be a jumble of emotions.

No they didn't defend that though i think most of them fell into that. But i did mention one thing i said um till then till i comment this cartoon from joanne's far a former charlie cartoonist reminds us of the fact that french society by and large has no interest in god god's ways god's laws god's will and well god in general.

But i want to consider that after all the emotions have died down. That is that's all i said. And then i and the the cartoon was all over the place. And it was the cartoon where she basically said we appreciate the pray for paris hashtag but we don't need more religion.

Paris is about love and joy and kisses and wine and celebration. And it was your just standard in your face keep your religion to yourself. This is a secular society response now evidently mr cooper can read my mind this is an amazing thing because not only can he figure out what i'm saying from this before i actually say it but he can even criticize me for saying it too soon after the event.

Even though i didn't actually say anything that was the amazing part was it part of his his his problem. Is it this. This is right afterwards how there are people still hurting how can you. And i'm like you know i didn't ask for someone to give me an illustration of hyper emotionalism.

But if you want to provide one you know i guess you know and do it on patheos there you go. Um but i sort of feel like i've been forced to do this earlier than i wanted to. Because i keep running into people who are saying well you said this and i just think it's terrible that you think this and it's like okay all right.

At least let me actually say something so that when you're disagreeing with me you can. Well i just realized i was about to say you can disagree with what i actually said. But folks like this aren't going to be disagreeing with what i actually said anyway.

So i guess it doesn't matter one way or the other anyway um and if you disagree you go ahead and and let me know uh we'll have a lot of nice discussion about it right here right here on the program. Um it was actually your charlie hebdo uh.

Post that you know that picture that you posted that kind of contributed to me writing my article too because i think it was a valid point that we needed to point that out to people that you know all of this uh sympathy that we are lavishing on france and rightly so i mean weeping with those that weep you know but i think the thing with jesus is that um we have to watch the way he wept.

Right. I mean he like you were saying i mean jesus obviously a man of perfect self-control. Wept uh very strategically i guess we can say right. Um it wasn't just for emotionalism's sake if you look at john chapter 11 he wasn't weeping along with the mourners at lazarus's tomb.

His tears were much more profound. So i think that is where the biblical worldview really comes in. And i think what you were i know what you're going to try to do with this and eventually and then why you had to put something out saying you'll talk about it later but in my article i tried to do a little bit of that and that is you know interpreting things from a biblical worldview actually sees beneath the surface of the initial reaction of everybody and really informs the world as to what is actually transpired in france and which is just really wave upon wave of evil where you have people you know revelry in in evil and then being murdered in the most evil way.

But it isn't. It isn't. It is as if these are a bunch of saints you know uh right gathering together for a choir service and they were slaughtered by you know by these terrorists they were.

Slaughtered and it was unjust and it was evil. And those men will be judged for what they did. Absolutely. But here's where theology matters. Um i think mr cooper because of his theology may not agree with this uh but just as uh assyria was judged for okay something i'm making a serious point.

What did i just say just as syria was judged. Right. You know what happened as syria was judged. Siri popped up on my iphone. Siri's like what can i help you with. Tell tell siri not to judge. Yeah tell.

Yeah siri don't judge. Okay. Whatever all right. Uh she probably already knows that uh probably has that programmed in. That's funny. But um but as in isaiah chapter 10 when god brings assyria against israel he says that they're they're the the the axe in his hand they are the means by which he is judging an ungodly people.

And then having justly judged an ungodly people people of israel in perfect accordance with his holy law in perfect accordance with deuteronomy 28 29 blessings and cursings etc etc. And man those are tough tough chapters to read.

I just read them recently from the pulpit as part of our regular readings of the old testament. And man really hard. Um just judgment. And we're talking the assyrians isis she did it again. Uh isis doesn't even know how to pretend to be like the assyrians were because they were absolutely brutal beyond description.

I mean uh a an ak -47 and a uh a hand grenade is merciful. And it's a humane way to die. It's a humane way to die. Very very much. So so they bring this slaughter and then god judges them for the attitude of their heart.

Now a lot of theologies aren't big enough to handle that. Which is why they end up throwing so much of the old testament out. And well you know this is just how the israelites thought about uh god and and and that kind of thing and blah blah blah blah blah.

Um but i take that very very seriously. I think that is how we are to understand these things. And so i start with a i think as a christian that we should be very careful with that word innocence non-combatants etc etc.