Planned Parenthood Supporter vs. Christian

Apologia Studios

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

00:00

I'm Jeff. I'm B .C. What's your name? B .C. B .C.? Okay, alright.

00:06

So yeah, I've tried to get you guys to talk. I also served a good chicken soup.

00:49

And so do we ignore what Auschwitz did by saying they also provided jobs and labor and shelter and clothes to the

01:02

Jews? Do we ignore what they actually did to the Jews? So for example, I know that there are pregnancy centers and health care centers, and you know that's all over the valley, that will provide those sorts of, you know, that this location today is destroying babies.

01:27

And see, this is what resonates with me. Your concern for other human beings, their well -being and their health care, that resonates with me because I'm a

01:35

Christian and we're all in the image of God, I believe, and all of us have value and dignity and worth. So what you're doing resonates with me when you say,

01:42

I care about their health care. But what, I guess my concern is when you say, for example, women, you care about women.

01:52

You know, I do too. And I think that what some Planned Parenthood supporters are doing is neglecting the 500 ,000 little women that are murdered by abortion every year.

02:02

What would you say to that? What would you say to the little women who are destroyed by Planned Parenthood? The line where you and I differentiate is the fact that I don't see a fetus as an independent, autonomous life.

02:15

It can't survive outside of a host. It can't survive outside of a female. But I shouldn't be enslaved to that female just because I took antibiotics that month and my birth control failed or my condom broke or, heaven forbid,

02:27

I was raped at a party. Yeah. What we would say is, wrong with Ray speaking

03:25

Latin. Fetus comes from the Latin meaning small child or baby. Why don't you just use

03:31

English? Fetus means baby in Latin. Any other form?

03:38

So why don't we use the English word and say small child or baby rather than using fetus.

03:57

So when you say a woman should be able to kill her fetus, it was used 40 years ago and it's a dead argument now.

04:23

You realize as a Planned Parenthood supporter that the people who are at the top echelon of this field and argument don't use the clump of cells argument anymore because it is against biological discovery in science.

04:34

The only difference biologically from the moment of conception to where you're at today, this is just a fact of science, is its size, level of development, environment, and degree of dependence.

04:48

So when do we kill people because of their size? When do we kill them because of their level of development?

04:56

Like you're not, my 6, my 7 year old is here today, he's not fully developed. Can I kill him because he's not fully developed?

05:05

Our environment, it's inside the woman. We're going to go in and out of different environments all of our lives. When do we give somebody the right to kill someone because of where they're located?

05:13

And the degree of dependence, you and I are both going to be dependent upon people at some time in our lives.

05:18

You were dependent upon your mom. I was dependent upon mine. Do you have kids? No. Okay.

05:24

I have four and all my kids are dependent upon me. And sometimes it's like, it hurts because they cost a lot of money, but they're dependent upon me.

05:32

I can't kill them because they're dependent upon me. And you and I probably at some point, it'll probably be 80 years old if God gives us that much.

05:39

And we're going to be dependent upon somebody. And do we say, well, I can kill them now because they're dependent.

05:46

Biologically speaking, it's a fact and you can look this up. You don't have to take my word for it. It's a fact that at the moment of conception, you have the full profile of you.

05:56

The only difference is your size, level of development, the environment and degree of dependence.

06:03

Biologically speaking, that's it. The clump of selves argument isn't even used anymore by people who are actually in this debated field because it would be absurd and fallacious to use that.

06:15

So I'm not saying this to, and I want you to understand something. The cameras are here today because they're doing a documentary.

06:21

But I care about you as a person. I'm not here to try to, I don't want to destroy you in an argument.

06:27

I care about you as a person and I do want to win you to Christ, to the truth.

06:36

I don't want to hurt you. I don't want to simply like again, win an argument with you. But I do want to point out to you that all of us, and I mean this with humility to you,

06:46

I'm saying me too, all of us are impacted by our surroundings and things and things people say to us and our upbringing. And I want to encourage you to think about something.

06:54

You've adopted sort of the party line of the pro -choice movement, but I don't think that you've been thoughtful and thought through these things.

07:02

With all due respect, you don't know what research I have done and you don't know what I have?

07:08

Well, you used a clump of cells argument. That's, that's, that's biologically fallacious. Because you wanted me to use what

07:13

I believe it is. And I'm saying it's a fallacious argument. You don't believe it's an autonomous child. Well, it's a fallacious argument to say it's a clump of cells.

07:20

It's, it's a human being from the moment of conception and you're arguing at that point not only with scripture, but science.

07:25

It's a fallacious argument to even use scripture to argue this. There's nothing that documents or supports using scripture to do this either.

07:32

But I've been very respectful of the fact that that is your belief. Sure. And that is where your research and interpretation of that research has led you.

07:40

Yeah, I would point you to the fact that if you reject the God of the Bible, then you reduce to absurdity.

07:46

You can't make sense of your experience. You can't make sense of your appeal to defend the rights of other human beings.

07:52

Because if those, if those aren't in the image of God. I, I apologize. I do have to stop you for just a moment. Sure. So you're saying that every other religion that is non -Judeo -Christian based

08:02

God. Yeah. Yeah. Is an absurdity. Yes. You're saying that Buddhism is an absurdity.

08:08

That Hinduism is an absurdity. Absolutely. Fallacious. I, I'm sorry. That's just disrespectful and wrong.

08:16

What's wrong with disrespectful? From your position, your worldview. What's wrong with disrespecting other human beings?

08:22

If you, if you don't have a foundation that can justify that claim to be morally indignant.

08:28

What's wrong with absurdities? What's wrong with disrespect? What's wrong with not giving women their rights from your worldview?

08:34

If you reject the God of the Bible, then you have no basis, no justification for those claims.

08:39

I'm not being morally indignant, however. I'm here standing up for secular ability to choose.

08:45

Right. So, but here's the, here's the point. Um, so what? The, you need the ability to choose.

08:51

Says who? Says you? Says everyone. We allow everyone freedom of choice, personal freedom. That's what our rights as Americans are based on.

08:57

Why is that important in your, why is that important in your worldview? That everyone have the right to choose? Yeah. The same that. To choose to murder their children.

09:03

Why, why is that important in your worldview? That everyone have the right to choose whatever they choose. Okay, so. Whether it's medical care, whether it's religion.

09:09

So you're. Whether it's secular. So you're, you're. Whether it's atheism. Your, your, your position is that people should have the right to choose to do whatever they want.

09:17

They're confined to within the law. Okay, which law? Germany's law in, in, uh, with the

09:23

SS? Or American law when they allowed slavery? Or is it today's law? Which, which, which society and which time period are we going to choose from to say that law is inspired?

09:36

Or does it change? It does change. It does change. Okay, so. Law changes based on the will of the people.

09:41

Gotcha. So if the will of the people say it's perfectly okay to enslave black people, that's morally good in your worldview, isn't it?

09:48

Moral is a word that you continue to use that I never apply. So you don't have, uh, do you believe in objective morality?

09:56

Do you believe that there's objective truth and an objective basis for morality? Yes. Okay, there is.

10:01

So, but you said a moment ago that society determines what is law. It does.

10:06

Okay, so how is that objective? Because societies change over time and their laws change over time. How is that objective? What I am trying to get to is that the problem is, is that, yes, laws do change over time.

10:19

So the law could change tomorrow. Enough people that are anti -choice could come up and say, we want to change the law.

10:26

They could vote that way. Then it's upon the other part of the society to decide whether or not that is correct and just.

10:34

So then it's, it can be a ping -pong match. It can go back and forth. But here's the point.

10:39

Is there an objective truth behind all that, despite what people say?

10:45

Or is it just based upon the will of the people? The baseline should be that based upon the will of the people, provided that some inalienable rights are allowed.

10:54

Where do those come from? Do you believe in evolution? Yes. Okay, so we evolved from fish to philosophers.

11:04

We are protoplasm bouncing around in the cosmos. We evolved through unguided processes to get where we're at today.

11:12

That's what you believe? Yes. Okay, so if that's the case, if we are all just protoplasm, bags of biological stuff whose ancestors were fish, on what basis can you complain about anything at all?

11:24

On ethical basis. Where's ethics come from when our ancestors were fish? So what?

11:31

It's the development of sentience. It's the development of consciousness. It's the development of objective morality.

11:37

There are sentients who have said that that's not a person. I know it looks like a person.

11:42

It's a Jew. You can kill it. There are people who have developed that kind of morality. And you don't have any argument with them because your ancestors were fish.

11:50

You live in an unpurposed, ungoverned universe. Might makes right in your worldview.

11:57

No, might dictates law in my worldview. I didn't say it necessarily makes law.

12:03

Might dictates law. It doesn't always make it right. The same with the SS. The same with slavery. The same with any other type of inquisition or anything along those natures.

12:13

Might doesn't make right. Well, in your worldview it does because you have a collection of protoplasm that gather together to form law.

12:20

And determine what is right and what is wrong. That's your worldview. Society determines law.

12:26

It's based upon society. So societal convention. They get together. They determine what's right and what's wrong. And that becomes the law.

12:32

But we did that with slavery. And I would imagine you and I would both agree it was wicked and abominable.

12:38

It was an evil thing. Slavery was an evil institution. In Atlanta and in the north it was wicked to do that to other human beings.

12:45

But in their society there were people who collectively said this is our law. This is morally right to do.

12:53

Now you don't have any argument with them. No, I do have argument with them because... Their society is larger than yours.

12:58

Different time. Their society, yeah, their society was a different time. It was also less enlightened. It was also less informed.

13:04

Enlightened. It was also less scientifically based. Okay. It was based entirely around a mythology that they had built up and cherry picked in order to justify it.

13:13

What mythology? Slavery? You think slavery had something to do with the Bible? It was cherry picked by many, many people to support slavery.

13:22

So even though people used the Bible to actually abolish slavery in every nation

13:27

Christianity went to, even though the Bible was used to undo oppression and slavery and to give women their rights in every nation we ever went, somehow...

13:36

I'm sorry, I have to disagree. There's the Inquisition, there's the Crusades. The Bible was used to oppress.

13:43

Yeah, the Bible has people... Has been used to oppress. Here's the point. You have people who...

13:48

What I'm saying is that the Bible should not be used, period. Right, I know you believe that. And that's why you need to repent of your sin, because you believe that.

13:56

And not once have I told you that you were mistaken or you need to change your worldviews from what they are.

14:02

But you continue to tell me I need to repent or I need more than I have sinned. Not because of my testimony, but because of the testimony of Jesus Christ.

14:10

Because of a mythology that all we have left is, I guess, a hand down oppression. I don't believe it is a mythology, but what's wrong with mythology?

14:16

My ancestors were fish. Well, you've already said that, you know, it's not scientifically based. No, no, that's not scientifically based.

14:24

And I didn't say my ancestors were fish. You made it very broad -speaking generalization.

14:30

Do you believe in evolution? Yes, I believe in evolution. You believe in neo -Darwinian, micro -mutation, macro -evolution.

14:42

Search them enough to do so. But do you believe that we got here through unguided evolutionary processes? Yes. Okay. So in that case, if you follow guys like Dawkins and Dennett and Krauss, you would believe that the story is we evolved from highly evolved societies of bacteria, then moved into fish, then moved into people.

15:00

And in that case, mythology isn't a problem. Mythology isn't a problem in your worldview.

15:07

It is a problem in mine. Because in my worldview, truth matters. There's an objective standard of truth.

15:12

We're in the image of God. In your worldview, where your ancestors were fish, mythology is not a problem at all.

15:18

You ask me why I have trouble with mythology. I have trouble with mythology because people use it in order to subject their views onto others.

15:26

So what? To subject their views onto others. So what? Their ancestors were fish. There's no moral guideline for the descendants of bacteria.

15:33

You keep making appeals to some sort of injury that people cause to one another, but in your worldview, that contradicts your worldview at every turn.

15:42

Now in my worldview, that makes sense. Oppression, mythology, things that are false, in my worldview, that's a problem.

15:51

But in your worldview, you believe that you're the product of evolutionary processes and that your ancestors were bacteria.

15:58

So there isn't any complaint. So when I said you need to repent, understand this. I am also a wicked sinner.

16:04

And so the call is for sinners like us to turn away from our sin and the foolishness of saying, my ancestors were fish and therefore you ought to be good.

16:14

The call is to turn away from our sin to trust in Christ who forgives us of our sin. Here's the thing. You made a point. You said, and it's important, because you said it and you were right.

16:22

Like, where do you come off saying to me, repent of your sin? Like, that's a pretty audacious thing.

16:28

But if Jesus is God, if He is who He claims to be, then whether you like it or not,

16:33

His claims over your life are true. And what's interesting here is that you've rejected

16:38

His word. Actually, I've never said that. You called it mythology and you acted as though that was some sort of prophet.

16:45

You've rejected His word and it puts you into a worldview of absurdity. I didn't actually say

16:52

I ever rejected His view. You made an assumption based on the fact that I equated all faiths into a mythological standpoint.

17:01

Well, you correct me if I'm wrong. I understood you as essentially pointing to the Bible as the problem in the mythology of cherry -picking.

17:09

Is that what you were saying? It was cherry -picking. However, ancient Babylonian also cherry -picked from the

17:15

Babylonians. Nobody's neutral.

17:34

Every mythology has its own way to justify what it's done.

17:40

Evolution and your mythology is very much the same. You came to the assumption that I was somehow targeting

17:47

Judeo -Christian beliefs. No, no, no. I think it's probably a mixed bag. Because I was using a generalized, broad -sweep term of mythology.

17:55

Yeah, but you know that we're talking about scripture, we're talking about Christ. Of course. And you pointed to it as important mythology. And I more than support your right to come out and do that.

18:01

I appreciate that. What I don't necessarily support is, if you'll forgive me, the use of the amplifier and loudspeakers to call men and women cowards as they walk out the door and call them murderers.

18:15

We have an objective basis to appeal to. You believe our ancestors were bacteria. The problem is that what you're doing is public shaming.

18:26

What's wrong with shaming? You're attempting... I disagree and I reject that claim, but what's wrong with shaming? Calling someone a coward and a murderer as they...

18:32

Because they went in to get birth control? No, no. What's wrong... They went into a place that's tearing the arms and legs and heads off of babies.

18:40

That's where they went. Let's be clear on that. But what's wrong with shaming other descendants of bacteria from your perspective?

18:47

That's your worldview. I would ask you to stick to that. Now, you're borrowing from mine. Because when you complain about shaming other humans, you act like those humans have value and dignity and worth.

18:57

They do. Now, in my worldview, they do. In your worldview, they're descendants of bacteria. No, they have value and worth.

19:03

How do descendants of bacteria... How do you get an absolute ought of what I ought not to do when my ancestors were bacteria?

19:11

There are truths of the heart that are just there. The physical heart? You don't have to know. The physical?

19:16

Of the soul. Do you believe in an immaterial? Of course. Okay, you do. Okay, so you're not a naturalistic materialist where you believe all that exists is matter.

19:26

Now, where do you get the idea that we have a soul? Who told you that? Our appreciation for art, our appreciation and creation of beauty.

19:34

What's beauty when art... We've evolved in a universe that doesn't care. It doesn't matter. It's just stuff moving around in a universe that is unguided and ungoverned.

19:44

You're acting like a Christian right now. You're acting like a Christian and feeling... I'm also acting like a

19:49

Buddhist and I'm also acting like a Hindu. No, you're acting like there's such a thing called beauty and love and art.

19:56

And I want to affirm something for you. I love that about you. I love that you are inconsistent with your worldview.

20:03

I love that you image God at every turn of your life. I love that you talk about the value of women because it contradicts your worldview.

20:11

I love that you talk about beauty and art and love because it contradicts your worldview.

20:18

It does not contradict my worldview. You don't get those things. You don't have to have a black or white worldview. You don't get those things from bacteria.

20:24

You don't have to have a black or white worldview. My belief in evolution is not based solely upon scientific facts.

20:33

Do I have to show respect? It is also based upon... ...against destruction of this rock that I ought to hold to?

21:06

Yes. Really? Okay. So what's amazing here is that you show, right now, that there is dignity and value and worth to this rock, but not to those children.

21:20

Again, you keep cycling back to the fact that, to me, that is not a child. And to the

21:25

Germans, those weren't persons. They're Jews. No, I'm sorry.

21:33

That was the argument. That was the argument. And that's your argument today.

21:39

Those aren't persons. They're clumps of cells. They can be killed. That is not an autonomous being.

21:46

It cannot survive outside of siphoning off of my life force. Okay, well, I said, should there be, could there be, ought there to be...

21:53

Okay, are there. Okay, forgive me. And there are laws that protect... Against destroying a rock? There are laws that protect personal property, public property...

22:01

This rock, we're talking about this specific rock. Yeah. Is there a moral odd against destruction of that rock?

22:07

Again, you're going back to morality. Well, you've been talking about morality the whole time. I, no,

22:12

I'm... Isn't it interesting that when you press on the issue of morality... I'm talking about intermittent morality. Right, and isn't it interesting, when you're pressing the issue of morality, because your worldview can provide no meaningful justification, you have to be in the way around that discussion.

22:23

No, I'm sorry, but okay, and I disagree with you there. However, we'll go back to the rock. Do I believe that there is a moral law or a moral odd that should not destroy that rock?

22:32

Yes, I do. Why? My destruction of that rock doesn't just impact me. It impacts you, it impacts her, it impacts him.

22:38

Amen, preach it. It impacts everyone. However... So, how about those babies in there? Again, that is not a child.

22:43

So, you have more value for a rock. Your worldview gives you this awe about the rock, the protection of the rock.

22:51

What I have is a value... But not to those babies. What I have is a value not to place undue burden on any individual.

22:56

How about the baby? Which would include... How about the undue burden of death on the baby? That's not an individual.

23:02

It is an individual. No, I'm sorry, it's not. I thought your perspective was science. It's not an autonomous being. Okay, so it is...

23:08

It is, at the moment of conception, according to science, which is supposed to be your perspective, it is a person, it is, it does have full personhood and the identification of who they are at the moment of conception.

23:23

That's a fact of science. I can't actually speak to that because I haven't read that yet.

23:29

I haven't researched that at this time. This is my point to you, and this is what I mean with humility to you. That is the identification of the

23:35

Planned Parenthood supporters today. It is people like you who are precious and wonderful and sweet that I respect that have adopted the party line and have not fought through the argument.

23:47

Respectfully, I have once ever told you that you have a group mentality or a party line or that you're doing anything like that.

23:55

I haven't once debased you in that manner or disrespected you in that manner by lumping your beliefs together.

24:02

You said every view has a particular mythology that they build their society upon. You did that and you attributed it to me.

24:09

We have our own perspective that does that. You did the same thing a moment ago. I want you to see this. Look at it for a second and just answer this.

24:24

You asked why we're here. This is Carmelo. His mother was in pre -op. His father heard us.

24:30

His father went in. They almost didn't let him go back to stop it. He grabbed his wife. We took care of their needs.

24:37

We even raised money for his business to get his business back online. Real fast. His name is Carmelo.

24:42

He's alive today. Should he be dead? I'm glad that that mother and father decided that they wanted to have children.

24:51

But we were here. But if that mother had decided, then it would have been up to her.

24:57

He could just as easily be dead. He could just as easily not exist. Right. But he was alive.

25:03

In her womb. And he's alive now because of this work. But in your perspective, you don't want us here.

25:09

So your perspective, Carmelo would be dead. He wouldn't be alive today. That's the result of your worldview.

25:16

That's the result of your work. Is that babies like Carmelo and Olivia Grace and Cara would be dead.

25:23

And I truly hope that the woman that had that child really honestly wanted to be a mother.

25:32

Oh, in tears.

25:40

Where now she has come out with us to plead with mothers to preserve the lives of their babies.

25:47

Begging of women. Don't do this to your babies. I almost did. And that's fine.

25:53

But it's up to no one else to subvert anyone else's wants or desires.

25:59

You have no justification to make that appeal. Your ancestors were fish. You have no absolutes in your worldview.

26:04

No ability to justify them. And I want to just leave you with this last thing. Your labor is working against babies like Carmelo.

26:14

My labor is working in favor of women like myself. No, the 500 ,000 little women who die every year are not being helped by your labor.

26:22

And I just want you to know that the message I have for you is that I care for you. Jesus, his message is that he came to save sinners.

26:31

He died and rose again. And he tells you and I to come to him in repentance and faith. To turn to him and trust in him.

26:37

That's the message I have for you. And what I have as a message for you is I love you and I respect you. I appreciate you.

26:43

However, I trust in your decisions. I trust in your choosing for a life without any influence from anyone else.

26:53

But I'm going to be there the entire time. I support the women and men who go in here.

27:02

I support the men and women who go in here that choose to get birthed. Or choose to get their

27:11

STD tested. So what about the little women who are torn limb from limb right now?

27:18

Again, you want me to go back to something I don't believe. But whether you and I agree with something, that doesn't make it true.

27:24

Truth is truth, whether you like it or not. And you can say all day long, well, I haven't decided to go there yet, but the truth is the truth.

27:31

They are destroying and tearing apart babies. They're going to rip their arms and legs and heads off. And then they piece them back together again on a tray to make sure they didn't leave a face.

27:39

Actually, I disagree. That's what they do. That's good. Just look it up. Medically, I know what they do. Right. Yeah. That's what they do.

27:44

God bless you. Thank you so much for the time. Thank you. Oh, thank you.