Classic Friday: John Tucker Interview - Pillar’s Conference

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Welcome to No Compromise Radio, a ministry coming to you from Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston.

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No Compromise Radio is a program dedicated to the ongoing proclamation of Jesus Christ, based on the theme in Galatians 2, verse 5, where the

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Apostle Paul said, But we did not yield in subjection to them for even an hour, so that the truth of the gospel would remain with you.

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In short, if you like smooth, watered -down words to make you simply feel good, this show isn't for you.

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By purpose, we are first biblical, but we can also be controversial. Stay tuned for the next 25 minutes as we're called by the divine trumpet to summon the troops for the honor and glory of her

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King. Here's our host, Pastor Mike Abendroth. Welcome to No Compromise Radio, a ministry.

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Mike Abendroth here. It is a, I think in real time, a Thursday, but we have

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Wednesday guests, and I like to bring in the big guns on Wednesday. I bring in people who write more than I do, or have higher

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IQs than I do, know more theology than I do, and so today is no exception for Wednesday.

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Pastor John Tucker, welcome back to No Compromise Radio. Thank you, Mike, it's great to be back.

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You're supposed to say, well, would you do my funeral with an introduction like that? Absolutely, will you?

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I have known John for quite a while, I've preached at his church, he's preached here, and I want you to know,

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John, when I pulled up on Google on my phone, I typed in John Tucker because I wanted to make sure

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I got your church name correct. What do you think pulled up on my iPhone 10

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Max when I typed in John Tucker? What pulled up? Probably the movie

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John Tucker Must Die. You are right! We have a winner, ding ding ding ding! Well...

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I get that. I get that often. Seriously! I had no idea. Yeah, yeah, so it's a fun story about that, is when that movie came out,

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I was contacted by someone in New York City who had a son named John Tucker, and he wanted me to file a lawsuit to stop the naming of that movie, because he was concerned his son was going to get harassed at school, and so he wanted to find a lawyer named

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John Tucker, thinking I would be sympathetic to his plight and cause, and wanted me to do that.

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I politely declined, but thought that was fun. That is a good story. John, we have talked a few times on NoCo before, but I'm thinking about the whole lawyer thing, because you are a lawyer, and you are a pastor.

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Is that like a pastor -teacher, pastor -lawyer? Is there a hyphen? Yeah, your friendly neighborhood pastor -lawyer is mine.

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Yeah, yeah, there's apostles, prophets, evangelists, and pastor -lawyers. Exactly.

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Do you think being a lawyer has helped you more, or hurt you more, when it comes to ministry?

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In other words, with helping, maybe you think analytically, and you can see

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Paul's epistle to the Romans, and then negatively, maybe if somebody doesn't like you or your style, maybe they think you should be nicer, they say, oh, you're too much like a lawyer.

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Yeah, I think it's helped more than it's hurt. Certainly as an advocate in the legal context, those skills certainly translate over to preaching.

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I'm an advocate for Christ, and that's a great honor and privilege. I think it's the most important thing

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I do. I've had opportunities to argue in very important cases in a lot of different courts and appellate courts, and my greatest privilege has been to stand behind the pulpit and to proclaim

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Christ, and I think the development of skills to communicate with respect to how to present an argument in a clear way so people can understand it, see the logic of it, but not be overwhelmed by perhaps some of the complexities that are associated with doctrine and other things,

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I think has been helpful, and the linear way of thinking, A to B to C to D, like Paul does, is something that I like, and the way

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I think. In law school, we were taught to identify the issue, identify the rule, make the application and draw a conclusion that was called

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IRAC, I -R -A -C, and it's kind of a method that I've even used in trying to put together my own messages and sermons and explain the text and read the text and help people make applications, and pointing them to Christ, of course, making certain that He's central and understood to be the theme of Scripture.

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I think it's worked well. Now, there are those who say, well, you know, you sound too much like a lawyer when you're in the pulpit and, you know, you don't want to be so dogmatic or hard or come across so sternly, and I think they sometimes mistake my firmness or my conviction for perhaps being upset or angry about something, but, you know,

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I'm passionate in the courtroom and I'm going to be passionate in the pulpit, and I want to persuade and present things clearly and precisely, so, if they don't like it, they can go down and listen to the wimpy guy down the road.

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That's a wimpy Bible chapel. Yeah, exactly. Well, our listeners can't...

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Pastor Milkcoast around the corner. I think it was my wife's grandfather.

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He's from Jamaica in England. He had something called Milk Soppy, and they put this bread in the milk and it sopped it all up, so that's

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Milk Soppy preaching, I think, for us. Yeah, we don't do that in Beloit, Ohio.

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Well, I've been to Beloit a few times, and I'm encouraged by the ministry there, and you, John, when

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I think of some of your practice, your law practice, I know you work with churches sometimes, and you didn't tell me details, but you did express some concern that some churches that you work with don't even seem to have the

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Bible as their final authority, right? You have some kind of law case, there's litigation, somebody needs to be involved, a third -party arbiter or whatever the term is, and if you don't have the

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Bible as a final authority, then who's the authority? Exactly.

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And I've come across that quite often over the years of my practice.

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I've had the occasion to represent a number of churches, Christian schools, and I've really enjoyed that, and one of the things

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I've enjoyed the most about those opportunities is to be able to point people back to Scripture as the final authority in faith and practice, and to encourage them to be mindful of that commitment and obligation that they have.

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In the recent past, because of the changes in a number of laws, both at the state and federal level, with things pertaining to transgenderism and homosexuality and infringement on free speech in that regard, with restrictions being imposed and some still in the pipeline with pending federal legislation, people have been concerned about whether or not they have the right kinds of bylaws and handbooks and policies in place.

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And so I've spent a lot of time in the last three or four years just reviewing those documents for Christian organizations and churches, and it's through that process that a lot of these folks have kind of come to the realization that they really never sat down and seriously took into consideration what

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God's Word says about genders and about sexuality and about relationships with people and how then to frame policies and bylaws and governing documents around the

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Scripture. And so that's been a great opportunity and a unique challenge.

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Some people will say, I just never even thought about it, and sadly they're in a church that hasn't really been proclaiming

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Christ and teaching the Bible, so these are oftentimes shocking revelations to them or nuances and points that they haven't taken into consideration.

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So yeah, it's important. We need to understand what the book says, and we apply it in the context of understanding that we have a mind for Christ, and that should be applied to these documents and these practices.

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So that's been enjoyable, challenging at times, but oftentimes it's worked out for the best.

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Talking to John Tucker today, pastor at the Community Bible Church in Beloit, Ohio, maybe an hour south of Cleveland, if you're in the area, you want to make sure you visit.

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John, I just, you know, want to express my concern, though. How can you define female, though, if you're just a theologian or a lawyer?

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Well, I'm not, you know, Mike, I'm not a biologist, so I don't know that I can answer that question. Yeah, that's just preposterous, you know,

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Romans 122, professing to be wise, they became fools. And this is just that on, you know, high -definition display for us right now, rejection, as Paul would communicate, of what

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God ordained in His creative order, and just bizarre nonsense, the presence of sin, its wickedness, its evilness, it's deliberate, it's intentional, people trying to undermine truth and the authority of Scripture and God's creative order.

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So I have no trouble defining what a woman is or what a man is. And what's going to be interesting about that,

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Mike, is that legally, that's going to present a multitude of problems, and you're going to see judges and juries then mimicking this type of nonsense, and as a consequence, justice will not be provided, and the laws will not be applied as they were intended.

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You're talking about centuries worth of legal precedent that appear to be tossed out on its ear with regard to the definition of these well -known and defined terms.

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And I don't need to ask a vet, you know, if I see a dog,

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I don't have to consult with a vet. I can make that determination, and the same is for men and for women alike.

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But this is that relativistic, godless age in which we live, and it's a great challenge and opportunity for those of us in Christ.

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John, you've been preaching through the book of Colossians. I don't know, are you in chapter 3 yet?

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And if so, has— Yes, Colossians chapter 3, yep. Okay, and what effect have you seen on the

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Church as you've been preaching through this wonderful little letter that extols Christ in every area?

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And have you noticed anything, the nomenclature of the Church, how they talk about Jesus?

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What have you seen as you've been in the book for quite some time? That's a great question, and it's been really truly remarkable to see what the

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Holy Spirit has done with our time in Colossians. Obviously it's a very Christ -focused epistle.

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Paul goes to great lengths to remind the Colossian believers of the foundation of their faith in Christ, their union with Christ, which is really central for Paul in the book of Colossians.

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And so what I've seen in our own congregation is that people, as we've delved deeply into the meaning of the passages, have a deeper understanding of Christ and as a consequence a greater love for Him, which ultimately is what then serves as their motivation to live for Him.

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They—understanding Him better, they love Him more and have a greater desire to know Him better and to know

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Him more. Out of that gospel, gratitude grows, that holy desire to live for Christ and to proclaim unto others.

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And so I get frequent comments from people that they're enjoying the time in Colossians and that they are growing in their understanding of the work and person of Jesus Christ.

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And Paul does such a great job of laying it out, and he repeats himself often. And, you know, he lays that tremendous foundation in chapter one.

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Chapter two, he deals with the error of the false teacher that's crept into the midst of the church there in Colossae, and he deals with the legalism, the failure to understand the distinction between the law and the gospel.

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Chapter three, he gets back into the foundations again in verses one through four, and then he starts to grow into that issue of sanctification and the source of that sanctification and what causes us to grow and how we then live that out in obedience and holiness.

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So it's made a huge impact in the church. The church has grown spiritually, and I think in a deeper way in knowing better who

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Jesus Christ is and what He has done. So it's just been a blessing to me. I think a blessing to the folks.

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It's made a really big transformation in the church, more from a, I'm going to look at,

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I'm going to faith in my faithfulness to more of a, let's look to Jesus Christ, the author and finisher of our faith, and rest in that.

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Wonderful. And in light of that, I thought I would bless you with a reading from the message in Colossians three.

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Oh, thank you, Mike. So if you're serious about living this new resurrection life with Christ, act like it.

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Pursue the things over which Christ presides. Don't shuffle along, eyes to the ground, absorbed with things right in front of you.

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Look up and be alert to what is going on around Christ. That's where the action is. See things from His perspective.

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Well, are you saying I shouldn't be preaching from the message? Well, John, I'm in Ephesians 5 this week, and it's the section with the wives and husbands, and it's interesting because there's this great section in the literal text and in every proper

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Bible translation about nurturing and cherishing, how the

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Lord Jesus takes care of the church, and of course then it moves over to how we're supposed to treat our wives.

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It says in the message, no one abuses his own body, does he? No, he feeds and pampers it.

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So see, if I was a wife, maybe I'd think instead of nourish and cherish, I'd like to be pampered more because Jesus pampered the church, so I want to be pampered.

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I think people probably need some pampers who are reading that. Maybe that would be the best way to go about that.

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Maybe. Yes, I would agree. That's true. So, John, a few years ago you started a

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Bible conference at the church at Community Bible, and I think I was a speaker then and was a speaker last year.

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We had a COVID year in between as well, and we want to talk a little bit today on No Compromise Radio about the next conference that's coming up.

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If you could give us dates and speakers and theme, and why do you think it's important so if people are in the area, they can swing over and be part of that conference.

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Yeah, absolutely. So this is our third year for having the Pillars of the Faith Conference, and we're really excited to have you back,

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Mike. You've spoken at all of the prior two conferences, and we're looking forward to having you back here for this one, along with your brother

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Pat. Pat Abendroff, so he's going to be coming out, the Sons of Thunder, is going to be at the

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Pillars of the Faith Conference in Beloit, Ohio. That's going to be on April 29th, beginning at 630.

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That's a Friday evening, April 30th, which is a Saturday from 930 in the morning to 1230, and then on Sunday, May 1st, beginning at 915, and then for our main worship service at 1030, followed by a fellowship time.

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And so, I think Pat's going to be starting the conference off on Friday night at 630,

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April 29th, and we'll have a Q &A session after he speaks. Mike, or Pat, rather, is going to be addressing some of the common misunderstandings with respect to the

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Trinity. The theme for the conference is our triune God, and so you and Pat are going to be speaking about the

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Trinity. And so, Pat's going to take the time to look at some of the Trinitarian heresies and errors in understanding the

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Trinity, looking at some of the current Trinity drift that we're seeing in evangelicalism.

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Oftentimes, the Trinity is just dismissed as something that's unattainable, we can't understand it, or it's completely mistaught.

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And so, Pat's going to look at some of those issues, the eternal relations of origin issue, the eternal generation issue, of course,

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I think will be something that Pat looks to and talks about. And then you're going to be talking about,

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I believe, the use of the Trinity in preaching and things of that nature.

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And so, addressing how we teach and express the triune

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God in our preaching and our teaching in church, and making certain that we're understanding the work in person of the

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Trinity. And so, those are the topics, and we're looking forward to having you guys out, and to have that sweet time of fellowship.

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We always have a good time, and the turnout's always been really good, and this is the first time we've had

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Pat out, so to have the two of you together, I don't know if I've made a mistake in doing that or not, we'll find out, but I think we'll have a great time.

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Well, Pat certainly has more hair than I do. He's thinner, he's in better shape, he's a better bicyclist.

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And I'm trying to think of what I might be better at than Pat. I can't think of anything, and he's even started a podcast, probably gets more downloads than NoCo Radio, so I love it that my younger brother and then one day my son will exceed me in all these things, so I'm glad for that.

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John? You've certainly paved the way, so that's, they're just simply imitating, and imitation is the greatest form of flattery, so there you go.

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John, in all seriousness, when you think about conference titles and topics, you're not the typical pastor.

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You think, okay, what would be good for the congregation that I am shepherding? If there are visitors from other churches, fine, it's a conference, but it's mainly for the folks, or it's intended for the folks that I shepherd.

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And if you want to get a lot of people, well, maybe you do the rapture, maybe it's marriage boosters, and everybody shows up.

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But why would you pick something about the triune God, our triune God? I mean, it's going to be like eight people, right?

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They're going to show up, they want to hear about the triune God. What were you thinking with your lawyer -like mind? Well, what

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I was thinking is that, you know, these are foundational truths of Scripture. These are the core tenets of what we believe as Christians.

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They are an important part of our confessions and creeds. It's important that we understand biblical categories and that we work within those categories.

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And so, our congregation is concerned about those things, because I'm concerned about them as their pastor.

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And so, as I preach and I teach, I communicate these important things, and I want to bring qualified, sound, godly men who are good students of the

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Word, who understand these things, who are confessional or Reformed, who understand these categories and can speak to them clearly and precisely based upon Scripture.

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You know, there's a huge problem right now in evangelicalism, and it's an abandonment of God's Word, the authority of God's Word, and the content of God's Word.

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And so, I think Matthew Barrett said something along the lines of, to truly know God, we must understand

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God as Trinity. And that's important. We want to truly know God, and as a believer,

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I want to know these things. It helps me appreciate the magnitude and wonder of my salvation, it helps me to understand how this triune

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God sanctifies me, what He did to save me, all of those things that are attendant with the hope that I rest in, knowing that He has accomplished and will accomplish what

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He set in motion, resting on the promises of Ephesians chapter 1, this wonderful picture of a triune

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God at work, bringing about my salvation. That's overwhelming and magnificent, and I know that you and Pat will do a fantastic job of teasing that out and presenting that to the people in a way that drives them to Christ and causes them to revel in the magnitude and the wonder of their salvation, so that's why

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I did it. Amen. And it is a... So the Conference is a pillar of the faith. These are things that we do not abandon.

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This is a sovereign mooring. We are anchored in these truths, and I want them to be held on to.

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We are drifting dramatically on so many issues, and people need to be reminded of these things, so that's why we did it.

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John, I love the answer, and I want to pat myself on the back for giving you such an underhanded pitch, but I won't do that, because it would take the focus off what we're both trying to accomplish.

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I think maybe you should entitle the Conference something that maybe is a little controversial, but I think it might draw in more people.

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Trinitarian pampering. Maybe... How would that work? Exactly. We'll do that.

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I'm going to write that down right now. Trinitarian pampering. We'll change the website. We'll take care of that.

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John, I was in California for the Shepherds Conference, and I think that's when we first met years ago there at the book tent.

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I know right where we were when we first talked to each other. I was talking to another pastor, and he was basically trying to defend people who teach eternal subordination.

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I think he's friends with Owen Strand and other things like that, so maybe it was more of a personal thing than theological, and he said something like, you know what?

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We can't understand all these things about the Trinity, and it's past us, and we're finite, and we're tainted by sin, and it's just kind of like it doesn't really matter that much because we can't figure it out.

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And I said, kind of in front of a group, I was nice about it, but I said, of course there's knowledge of God about Himself that we don't know.

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But there's knowledge of God that we do know by revelation, and if God has so decided to reveal

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Himself in a particular, precise, exact way, then that's how we're to think about God, this particular, precise way.

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So it does matter. And we just can't say, well, we don't care about eternal begotten, and it doesn't matter about that because we can't grasp it anyway.

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But this is the way God has revealed Himself, and we ought to think about Him that way.

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So I love it that you've picked our triune God as a topic, and I've even been convicted myself in studying,

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John, when you read about Jesus, we ought to be thinking about the Father and the Spirit, right?

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There's one God, not three gods, and every time I read about the Holy Spirit, it flags my mind now to think about the

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Father and the Son as well, and the same thing goes for the Father. He is a triune God, and we want to think triunely, if we can make up a word.

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Yeah. No, I agree, and I reject the premise that these things are too deep for us to understand or just too complex for the common person, so to speak.

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You know, as a lawyer, when I try a case, I try that case not to the judge, but to typically a jury of eight or twelve people.

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And they're required to sit through days, if not weeks, of complex fact patterns, and then at the conclusion of that, take a set of jury instructions that contain a very precise recitation of the law, and take the facts and apply the law and draw a conclusion.

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And you have people of varied education and backgrounds and experience, and I've always been impressed by the

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American jury system and by the ability of jurors to come back and render a decision in sometimes insanely complex cases.

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Some of the laws that we have are incredibly complex. And so this excuse that somehow we can't understand these things is ridiculous and buys into this kind of relativistic, we -don't -care approach today.

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But we're called to have the mind of Christ, we're called to look into God's Word and to understand it and to ponder it and to meditate on it and to grasp these things so we can glorify

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Him. Soli Deo Gloria, that comes out of a recognition of these wonderful truths, one of which is the fact that we have a triune

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God. Is there complexity to it? Absolutely, but there's also simplicity as well, and we need to understand that and to get our arms around it.

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So no, I'm of the mindset that we need to restore these great

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Orthodox truths that are the bedrock of Christianity, and I'm glad that you guys are helping me do that.

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Amen. Well, that was a quick half -hour. Thanks, John, for being on the show. People can go to Community Bible Church, Beloit, Ohio, for the conference and read more about it.

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If you'd like to go to the website, it's www .thecommunitybiblechurch .com,

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right? That's correct. This is not a community Bible church. This is, out of all the community Bible churches, this is the community

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Bible church. Yeah, it's like the Ohio State University, this is the community

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Bible church. Thanks, John, for being on NOCO. Thank you, Mike, for having me.

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I appreciate it. No Compromise Radio with Pastor Mike Abendroth is a production of Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston.

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Bethlehem Bible Church is a Bible -teaching church firmly committed to unleashing the life -transforming power of God's Word through verse -by -verse exposition of the sacred text.

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Please come and join us. Our service times are Sunday morning at 1015 and in the evening at 6. We're right on Route 110 in West Boylston.

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You can check us out online at bbchurch .org or by phone at 508 -835 -3400.