April 10, 2017 Show with Stephen Atkinson on “The Passover Through Christian Eyes”

The Purpose of Iron Sharpens Iron and the Day of Passover

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania it's iron sharpens iron a radio platform on which pastors Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage quote we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and Directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour. And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions. Now here's our host Chris.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming. This is Chris Arns and your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Monday on this 10th day of April 2017 and it is the day of Passover the first day of Passover.

It comes at sundown today and It is very providential on this day of all days that we have in studio again visiting iron sharpens iron radio Stephen Atkinson Assistant pastor of Covenant Church, which is a congregation in the Presbyterian Church in America which is commonly known as the PCA in Fayetteville, Arkansas, and he's also the North American director of Christian witness to Israel and What better guest to have on a day like Today the first day of Passover and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you to iron sharpens iron.

Stephen Atkinson. Chris, it's really great to be back with you. I'm delighted to be here and it is providential but we take too much credit for that. We simply said this is a day that we could make it work.

Yeah, I'm glad that that that I'm here to do that and to talk about a subject that is dear to my heart that is Bringing Christ the Passover lamb to our Jewish friends in particular to our Jewish friends here in the United States and.

Stephen Atkinson's Testimony and Call to Ministry

Before we get into the subject at hand, I know that you've given your testimony a number of times in the program. But we it seems have new listeners joining us every week that we know of. It might even be every day for all I know but Every week I noticed people That I haven't recognized their names or email addresses before contacting us and.

For those of our listeners who have not heard your testimony. Why don't you at least give a summarized? version of How you came to Christ? What was the religious atmosphere of? Your upbringing and what providential circumstances did the Lord used to draw you to himself and save you sure.

One of the Amazing things that that that I just Bow in wonder and worship and day by day is the way in which the Lord orders our footsteps. I think maybe it is as the older you get you you think through the providences of God in your life and Maybe someday in my retirement years.

I'll write a book on God's amazing providence, but I Grew up in a church going home it was a home that Had the Bible as as as important and church as important, but the gospel really wasn't clearly Brought forth either in church or even in my home.

I'm thankful for even those that that security and that the Lord had preserved me in such a situation and indeed ultimately then brought me to faith and Again, we look back and wonder How did that happen?

Why me? You know in in terms of my whole family in terms of my You know my parents grandparents great-grandparents, there's no one that I can point to that Was a believer my parents ultimately did come to faith and I'm so thankful for that but in in my initial home setting I was simply brought up in the in the safety and security of the Surroundings of church churchianity, I suppose but the the Lord Opened up the gospel to me particularly through the ministry of a young intern in my church at that time and some friends in in the youth ministry at the church and I realized that I was not walking the way I should and that I needed to come to the cross and I find Christ.

And in those days again the Teaching in my church perhaps was not as clear and distinct and solid and and up building as I would have desired but nonetheless again the Lord preserved and provided and so I I felt again a strong call very a very particular providential incident that Drew me to consider the gospel ministry even as a 19 year old I was studying Just a general arts degree at that time and I finished that arts degree and then went into seminary.

And so I was I was out in ministry preaching very young age 25 and I was I got my first senior pastor at age 27, but what did I know when I'm 27 years of age. And I'm thankful that through all of that and through all the years and you know 30 plus years now of preaching The Lord continues to teach and continues to show by amazing providential incidents that he is in control of my life and I simply can respond and say I am your servant use me and Enable me to be a part of the kingdom work to which you've called me.

Amen. Well, how did you get involved with Christian witness to Israel? Which is one of the oldest Christian outreaches to the Jewish people and this may surprise many of our listeners but Christian witness to Israel is a theologically reformed organization or ministry and many involved in Jewish evangelism believe that that is the exclusively the the neighborhood of dispensationalism and so on but Christian witness to Israel is a clearly a reformed ministry and and goes back to the 19th century, correct?

Yeah, we are.

175 years old this November and we began 1842 out of really I suppose the burden of the Scottish Presbyterians in the 1830s and Robert Murray McShane was very prominent in the building of that burden and indeed he Providentially prayed the opening prayer at the first ever meeting of our ministry in 1842.

And so we are 175 years old, but we we don't simply rest on the history and rest on our laurels. We have a work to do in the present and the burden that drove men like McShane and Bonner. And indeed CH Spurgeon was involved in our ministry in his era as well.

But men that drove that burden that drove those men to desire Jewish people to come to know Jesus is that same burden that drives us and it's the same thing that I want to see driven and multiplied here in the United States because I think as you have rightly said there there is a lot of interest in Israel, but very little of a What we might call a reformed interest and and when I use that term, I use it simply in the sense of a solid biblical and theologically robust understanding of what is Israel and what is our calling towards the people Israel and It can be easily summarized in Romans 10 1 my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel.

Is that they may be saved and that I suppose could be the motto of our ministry as it as it rightly is the motto of many Jewish ministries. How did I come into CWI. Again, providentially, I don't trust my own judgment and I'm thankful that the Lord guides our footsteps in in every way.

And I could term it a heavy providence and a delightful providence. I had a situation in a church That might be termed a heavy providence and I don't need to go into details concerning that at the present time.

But in the midst of that I had a delightful providence in which a brother pastor that I had known for probably 30 years previous he called me up and he was on the board of CWI and He called me up and asked me would I be interested in coming out of the regular pastor?

I've been a regular pastor for 18 years and he phoned me up and said would you be interested in becoming the CWI? Rep for Ireland your name has been mentioned and we think you'd be a good fit for the post and In the midst of the heavy providence and the the difficult situation.

I was in again, not trusting my own judgment, but committing myself to the company of many advisors. I spoke with colleagues and friends and They responded Stephen. Yeah, we think this this is this is for you.

We think this is a good fit and that was 13 years ago and I've never looked back since I Week by week year on year. I grow more and more passionate for this cause as the burden of the ancient people grows heavy on my heart and I desire to see particularly here as he has now brought me across the pond to the United States That I would see the church mobilized To recognize this Important mission field that's on our own doorstep.

Whereas again, I've repeatedly said 42 of the world's Jewish population live in the United States, so Churches Christians here in the United States. Let's get our act together and see this important mission field that the Lord has preserved and placed Providentially right next to us.

There's no other country on the planet that has as many Christians and Jews living side-by-side we have Approximately five to six million Jewish people living in the United States. How many Christians?

Well again Conservative estimate maybe it's certainly in the millions maybe tens of millions in the United States. No other country on the planet has as many Christians and Jews living side-by-side And so and even the resources we have And the opportunities we have here in the US.

I would simply say that to whom much has been given you know much will be required and Therefore again as our Scottish forefathers with limited resources, but with a theological burden We're so passionately concerned to bring the gospel back to those that brought it to us.

Namely the Jewish people I want to see the same kind of burden Become a flame across this land That my American cousins my American friends Will really desire to bring the gospel right on their own doorstep to their Jewish friends.

Israel, the Jewish People, and the Priority of Evangelism

One of the things that you and I have discussed before before we go into the our discussion on Passover itself and Obviously, I misspoke in a sense today really. Well, it isn't the first day of Passover right now because there's sunlight streaming through my window.

It begins at sundown today. And one of the things that we have discussed in the past is that some Ministries typically that identify themselves as Messianic and of course not all. I'm not. I'm trying not to broad brush here, but Some of them have a misplaced Emphasis on the nation of Israel where the allegiance to the nation seems to be first and foremost at the expense of the actual souls of those Jews living there and.

Globally.

The eternal life of Jewish people Is infinitely more important than the government? Yeah. Of or even in the existence of a plot of real estate in the Middle East and It seems that some people have far more of an emphasis on that nation, which actually is an atheist and socialist.

Nation in the Middle East. I think you're right. I'm not saying that land issues are unimportant I'm not saying that issues of Eschatology even are unimportant. I'm not saying that matters pertaining to Jewishness are not important but what I would say is if as you as you rightly pointed out if there is a misplaced emphasis if land becomes more important than the Lord if a rapture becomes more important than the Redeemer if blood moons becomes more important than a bloodied Messiah if Jewishness becomes more important than the Jew called Jesus All of those things I've got issues with it's it's the misplaced emphasis not that those issues and many many more are not Important they are important and we need to debate them and we need to discuss them and people will have differing views on them.

But when the land becomes the the one thing I'm sorry, you can have the land and be lost. They need the Lord Jesus and shouldn't it.

Be. Shouldn't our our friends who are very militant about The United States and in fact, you know all of the Western world being In unity and having an allegiance to the nation of Israel. Which I'm not saying that that is wrong.

I'm not saying that that's improper. I think that they are our greatest ally in the Middle East. But those Christians that think that that is of primary focus, even if it's unconsciously they were thinking that way.

And If you were to disagree With them eschatologically or in some other way that involves the nation. If you don't believe the nation is a fulfillment of biblical prophecy. They will very often despise you.

They will call you a heretic and anti-semite a liberal all kinds of things. They have to be reminded that when that nation began I'm talking about the the new nation that we see today. There were literally or virtually no Conservative Jews involved in that.

They were not the Orthodox or Hasidic Jews participating in this. They were very opposed to it because they believed that the Messiah had to usher in.

The existence of Israel, that's right, and that's where it can get very complicated and and we in CWI Don't regard the land as unimportant but we regard the people as of primary importance. As you as you've rightly said they have a never-dying soul and We need to bring the gospel to the Jewish people.

The land issue is is is a secondary one and some eschatological issues are also Somewhat secondary. Having settled that I repeatedly use a phrase theology drives missy ology. In other words if we get our theology, right? then our missy ology flows from that and sometimes we can have a theological understanding even of the end times.

Which.

Includes the land. Includes the Jews. Going back to the land includes a rebuilding of the temple. It includes a ton of other things. And therefore that theological position will have implications on the missyological Outworking of that.

In other words if if that's your theological position your mission is let's get them all back to the land. Let's find the red heifer. Let's get them getting all the implements put together to build the temple.

My issue with that theology is I One. I don't see it as I understand a reformed perspective in the scriptures. I don't see it in that way and and very specifically I don't think my forefathers saw it in that way if we can think of our Presbyterian forefathers or our Baptist forefathers.

And I don't think as I see it even in Scripture the Apostle Paul his heart's desire his prayer his his weeping his burden was for the Jewish people to be saved and. And it just seems to me that we have got distracted on a ton of different things.

And we have lost that one emphasis on What the scripture speaks of as the one thing needful?

Yeah, and the reason that I brought up the the fact that the it was the secularist and the liberal Jews that were primarily involved in Zionism and restore of the restoration of the New Israel I brought that up because just because of the fact that those who have different biblical interpretations of fulfilled prophecy or eschatology are being accused of anti-semitism.

And that is an absurd notion. When you have Jews who did not Jews in mass yes who did not? Believe that this was Israel many have come to accept it.

Perhaps even the majority. I'm not sure but well. I I do think that we we Christians have And and even as citizens a Either in the u .s.. I'm not a citizen. I'm a green card holder I'm the legal resident as it's termed.

I'm still I suppose I used to be an alien I'm I'm now I'm not a regular person perhaps. I don't know what that means but as we citizens or as people who live in a in a political landscape we have political positions and It is right that as we look at the land of Israel or the nation of Israel that we see That is a democracy in the Middle East and that is an ally.

And we may have reason for having that Kindliness towards our allies in certain parts of the world, so that's fine the the issue goes to another level though whenever Christians will say well we got to stand with Israel, and we got to bless Israel well first of all I got to ask That question what does it mean?

What does it mean to stand with Israel? What does it mean to bless Israel? And and we need really to flesh these terms like that. I think sometimes we use these terms so loosely. And and we're we're not really even thinking deeply as to what are the implications of will definitely define those terms.

Well, you think that they should be appropriate way. I think of them again standing with. If I stand with someone. It may be because they need help if I stand with a little old lady lady that Who needs some help as she needs to cross the road or if I stand with someone who has just lost a loved one?

I might get alongside that person and be of some Even physical assistance so again going back to the political question we may stand with a political ally but in terms of our Unconditional standing with Israel as a nation I think there are reasons why we Christians perhaps we can't say that Unconditionally because Israel is not a a Christian nation.

It why should we expect a non-christian nation to act in a certain way? And why should we simply be standing? Unconditionally with a nation that may not act totally in a Christian way. I think politically we may stand with them.

I think Theologically is where I would bring the point to and and so again going back to our Presbyterian forefathers they desired to express something of a standing with. With a desire to bless with the gospel and so ultimately it all goes back to the gospel.

The standing with someone maybe on their deathbed. I will I have done so in my pastoral ministry where I will Sit with someone or effectively stand with someone on their deathbed. And I want to tell them about Jesus and I want to read them the scriptures.

And I want to bring them eternal truths that will enable them to cross that great River that they are about to cross. So our our Standing with Israel must be to bring them to that point to bring them to the gospel of Jesus their Messiah.

And of course then another word in those phrases that needs to be clarified is the word Israel itself. Because indeed in fact someone today Immediately when I told them that my guest was the North American director of a Christian witness To Israel. He immediately thought it had something to do with the nation of Israel because of the word Israel in the name.

But that has more than that one meaning. Of course because.

What does it mean in the scriptures as we read of what the Apostle Paul would? Would speak of when his heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel. What was it? Well, it was for Israel the people. Or if we read Romans 9 through 11 Where Israel is mentioned, what does it mean it again?

It means the people. When when our ministry began 175 years ago our ministry was. It was actually named by a different name it was the British Society for the propagation of the gospel among the Jews.

Because actually in those days there really there wasn't there wasn't Israel the land Palestine was Palestine then and so our ministry as we have Renamed it to be Christian witness to Israel. Israel in our name simply means the Jews and it's bringing the gospel to the Jewish people worldwide.

In fact people would be surprised To discover that Palestinians is. Really when you when you speak of the Palestinians as an ethnic people, this is a modern invention. Hmm, the term Palestinian was always associated with the Jewish people until the 20th century.

Really.

Well both although the the term Palestine came really in the second century and I think I have a Problem at times when I hear preachers talking about Jesus walking in the hills of Palestine. No, he didn't.

We don't read of that in the scripture. We read of him in in Galilee or Judea or Samaria or that there were so many different regions. Wasn't called Palestine in those days and indeed it was named Palestine Really to thumb the nose at the Jewish people because it referenced back to the Philistines or Philistines as you pronounce it over here and and it really was to.

The Romans named it that To to be kind of a thorn in the side of the Jewish people when the Jewish people had been expelled And and dispersed after the fall of Jerusalem in 8070.

Right, but this understanding of the of these people there now being Palestinians as if they are a separate ethnic group or country. This is something that was foreign from history.

Well again that they they have made up their own identity as well. Right and and and I almost have taken on. You know an identity and a cause and and even a narrative. We hear there's a lot of talk these days about fake news and and it seems to me that we we need to be so so careful about narratives and.

And even a greater understanding of history. I think I've maybe shared this the last time I was with you or some previous visits, but the narrative on Northern Ireland during my days. You know and of growing up.

The narrative in these shores in the United States certainly in some of areas of Boston and Chicago and. Was that those Brits were oppressing the poor Catholic Irish and so the narrative was presented.

We need to raise money and in the in the pubs and bars of American Irish in Chicago or whatever and money was raised to fund terrorism and so the narrative that was told here was a false narrative and I and I think again in the Middle East and indeed not just in the Israel and the Israeli Palestinian issues.

We need to be so careful about what we're hearing and what we're reading. Just as even today and with regard to fake news. And with regard to the news channels and what is being presented as news, which is more.

This is my. This is my British take on on the American news channels, but it's it's it's nothing more than political propaganda. On whatever side of the fence you are and I crave Narratives and I crave news and I crave that kind of just give me that.

Understanding of what is happening. Let me think it through don't give me. One minute of news and then 59 minutes of comment of what you think is going on in the world. But that's that's another story for another time.

You've really got me sidetracked there.

Well, I want you when we return from the break I'm sure that we will eventually get into the actual subject of the Passover. But but when we come back from the break you had a very fascinating experience in Denver.

That I wanted you to share with our listeners that that in some way Relates to some of the things that we've been already discussing about people who have a misplaced emphasis when it comes to.

Jewish outreach. Yeah about a month ago. I was at a conference in Denver. I'll talk about that whenever we get back.

A Denver Conference on Standing with Israel

Yeah, we'll be back after these messages. If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own for our guest Steven Atkinson Who is the North American director for a question a Christian witness to Israel?

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This is Chris Barnes and if you just tuned us in on This dawn of Passover We have as our guest today returning to the studio Stephen Atkinson. He is the North American director of Christian witness to Israel and we are discussing not only an appropriate Methodology of reaching out to the Jewish people with the gospel To put things into perspective according to the priorities First and foremost being being being bringing praise honor and glory to God being faithful to his word and having a compassion for the never-dying souls of the Jewish people first and foremost above any other area that we may have legitimate rights to to debate or disagree over regarding eschatology or biblical prophecy and so on.

And I was. Stephen also is the assistant pastor of Covenant Church, which is a church in the Presbyterian Church in America also known as the PCA and Fayetteville, Arkansas before we continue with our story about Denver, Colorado.

Perhaps he could tell our listeners something about Covenant Church. We failed to mention that earlier.

Well, as you rightly say a member of the PCA and beautiful Northwest Arkansas, my senior pastor has been there 30 years. He was the church planter and He was indeed the means of me coming over here and the the ministry of CWI making its way over here as He and the congregation there enabled me to be called in that manner and visa was enabled and ultimately now I'm on a green card and So I'm good for 10 years according to Immigration and so I'm very thankful for Covenant Church and for the way in which these things have happened providentially.

Hopefully there'll be nothing in this broadcast today that expedites your expulsion from this country. You never know with iron sharpens irony. And if anybody is Interested in learning more about Covenant Church in Fayetteville, Arkansas, you could go to their website Covenant church PCA org.

That's Covenant Church PCA, which stands for Presbyterian Church in America Or Covenant Church PCA org and also the Christian witness to Israel Northamerica. Their website is CWI and a org CWI for Christian witness to Israel and a for North America org CWI and a org.

You had informed me about something interesting that developed in Denver Colorado at a speaking engagement that involved the live streaming of a rabbi in Israel. Some message he was giving and I'm not talking about a messianic rabbi or a Christian rabbi.

An Orthodox Jewish rabbi. This was a regular rabbi and we I had been asked to take part in this conference and the conference organizers had deliberately Decided they wanted to expose the congregation to perhaps things that me we maybe wouldn't be wholly in agreement with but the reason that was given to me was that if you if you get a vaccine you you get a little bit of the you'll get a little bit of the disease and.

But I I kept saying well if you get too much of the disease though, then you get sick.

So.

The situation that was desired was to expose to some of the other things that are out there and indeed it for me I hadn't I had known Theologically certain things that were out there. But I was able to see them a little bit up close and personal through the weekend.

So it was helpful to me in that regard. But there was one incident on the Saturday afternoon where the organizers were live streaming this rabbi. And again, the conference was entitled why Christians should stand with Israel and I had my reasons and even my explanation as to what that means.

But the rabbi Obviously wanted to deliver his impression of what that meant. And what that meant for him was very specifically that Christians should leave Jews alone. That they should respect Jews and their Judaism.

That they should come visit the land and enjoy Jewishness in the land and enjoy all of those kinds of things. But Primarily, he simply said you you really must not consider us as an evangelistic project.

In fact, that was the liberal approach to Christian missionary involvement in Africa and all of the foreign lands where Christianity might might have been a minority. Missionaries were told by liberals just to bring food and dig wells and Keep your religion to yourself.

Don't nail your religion to the natives feet. You know that nonsense, but and and of course, I.

Listened to this with And I wonder would you have would you have done the same thing? It sounds as if you probably would. But I listened to this Kind of approach and and I could contain myself no longer and I simply said.

And I posed the question at the conference Which then was transferred again live to to our rabbi friend. I posed the question just like this that in the light of Psalm 67 your ancestors your Jewish ancestors Prayed that the world might know Israel's God and his salvation.

And my question and my point was My Scots ancestors Were dancing around stone images in the days when in Psalm 67 your Jewish ancestors prayed that the world and the nations may know your God. And My question was why did you not leave us alone?

Hey man, amen.

And and you know, he fluffed and he huffed and puffed a little bit but never really responded to my question and I simply then Followed up and said I just want to say thank you and thank God That your ancestors did not leave us alone.

Amen. And you see, you know that to remind our listeners of the psalm Psalm 67. We sometimes either sing this psalm or we sing a version of it or we read it and we and we immediately Christianize it and there's a legitimacy to that.

But let's try and put place ourselves in the original context of Psalm 67. Consider you know a thousand BC a little prayer meeting in Jerusalem and these little group of Jewish people are saying May God be gracious to us and bless us and make his face to shine upon us.

That your way may be known on earth. Your saving power or your salvation known among all nations. Let the people's praise you. Oh God. Let all the people's praise you. Let the nation's be glad and sing for joy for you judge the people's with equity and guide The nation's upon the earth and so it continues and the the prayer there.