April 10, 2017 Show with Stephen Atkinson on “The Passover Through Christian Eyes”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us Iron sharpens iron so one

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Now here's our host Chris.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Lake City, Florida and the rest of

humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming.

This is Chris Arns and your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Monday on this 10th

day of April 2017 and it is the day of

Passover the first day of Passover.

It comes at sundown today and It is very providential on this

day of all days that we have in studio again visiting iron sharpens iron radio

Stephen Atkinson Assistant pastor of Covenant Church, which is a congregation in the

Presbyterian Church in America which is commonly known as the PCA in Fayetteville, Arkansas,

and he's also the North American director of Christian witness to Israel and What

better guest to have on a day like Today the first day of Passover and it's my honor and privilege to welcome

you to iron sharpens iron.

Stephen Atkinson.

Chris, it's really great to be back with you.

I'm delighted to be here and it is providential but we take too much credit for that.

We simply said this is a day that we could make it work.

Yeah, I'm glad that that that I'm here to do that and to talk about a subject that is

dear to my heart that is Bringing Christ the Passover lamb to our Jewish friends in

particular to our Jewish friends here in the United States and.

Before we get into the subject at hand, I know that you've given your testimony a number of times in the program.

But we it seems have new listeners joining us every week that we know of.

It might even be every day for all I know but Every week I noticed people

That I haven't recognized their names or email addresses before contacting us and.

For those of our listeners who have not heard your testimony. Why don't you at least give a summarized?

version of How you came to Christ?

What was the religious atmosphere of?

Your upbringing and what providential circumstances did the Lord used to draw you to himself

and save you sure.

One of the Amazing things that that that I just Bow in wonder and worship

and day by day is the way in which the Lord orders our footsteps.

I think maybe it is as the older you get you you think through the providences of God in your life and

Maybe someday in my retirement years.

I'll write a book on God's amazing providence, but I Grew up in a church going

home it was a home that Had the Bible as as

as important and church as important, but the gospel really wasn't clearly

Brought forth either in church or even in my home.

I'm thankful for even those that that security and that the Lord had preserved me in

such a situation and indeed ultimately then brought me to faith and Again,

we look back and wonder How did that happen?

Why me?

You know in in terms of my whole family in terms of my You know my

parents grandparents great -grandparents, there's no one that I can point to that

Was a believer my parents ultimately did come to faith and I'm so thankful for that but in in my

initial home setting I was simply brought up in the in the safety and security of the

Surroundings of church churchianity, I suppose but the the Lord Opened

up the gospel to me particularly through the ministry of a young intern in my church at

that time and some friends in in the youth ministry at the church and I

realized that I was not walking the way I should and that I needed to come to the cross and I

find Christ.

And in those days again the Teaching in my church perhaps was not as clear and distinct and solid

and and up building as I would have desired but nonetheless again the

Lord preserved and provided and so I I felt again a

strong call very a very particular providential incident that Drew me

to consider the gospel ministry even as a 19 year old I was studying Just a

general arts degree at that time and I finished that arts degree and then went into seminary.

And so I was I was out in ministry preaching very young age 25

and I was I got my first senior pastor at age 27, but what did I know when I'm

27 years of age.

And I'm thankful that through all of that and through all the years and you know 30 plus years now of preaching

The Lord continues to teach and continues to show by amazing providential incidents that he is in

control of my life and I simply can respond and say I am your servant

use me and Enable me to be a part of the kingdom work to which

you've called me.

Amen.

Well, how did you get involved with Christian witness to Israel?

Which is one of the oldest Christian outreaches to the Jewish people and this may surprise

many of our listeners but Christian witness to Israel is a theologically

reformed organization or ministry and many involved in

Jewish evangelism believe that that is the exclusively

the the neighborhood of dispensationalism and so on but Christian witness to Israel is

a clearly a reformed ministry and and goes back to the 19th century, correct?

Yeah, we are.

175 years old this November and we began

1842 out of really I suppose the burden of the Scottish Presbyterians in the

1830s and Robert Murray McShane was very prominent in the building of that burden

and indeed he Providentially prayed the opening prayer at the first ever meeting of our ministry

in 1842.

And so we are 175 years old, but we we don't simply rest on the history and rest on our

laurels.

We have a work to do in the present and the burden that drove men like McShane

and Bonner.

And indeed CH Spurgeon was involved in our ministry in his era as well.

But men that drove that burden that drove those men to desire Jewish people to come to know Jesus

is that same burden that drives us and it's the same thing that I want to see driven and

multiplied here in the United States because I think as you have rightly said there there is a lot of interest

in Israel, but very little of a What we might call a reformed

interest and and when I use that term, I use it simply in the sense of a solid biblical

and theologically robust understanding of what is

Israel and what is our calling towards the people Israel and It can be easily

summarized in Romans 10 1 my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel.

Is that they may be saved and that I suppose could be the motto of our ministry as it as it

rightly is the motto of many Jewish ministries.

How did I come into CWI.

Again, providentially, I don't trust my own judgment and I'm thankful that the Lord guides our footsteps in in

every way.

And I could term it a heavy providence and a delightful providence.

I had a situation in a church That might be termed a heavy providence and I don't need

to go into details concerning that at the present time.

But in the midst of that I had a delightful providence in which a brother pastor

that I had known for probably 30 years previous he

called me up and he was on the board of CWI and He called me up and asked me would I be

interested in coming out of the regular pastor?

I've been a regular pastor for 18 years and he phoned me up and said would you be interested in

becoming the CWI?

Rep for Ireland your name has been mentioned and we think you'd be a good fit

for the post and In the midst of the heavy providence and the the difficult

situation.

I was in again, not trusting my own judgment, but committing myself to the company of many

advisors.

I spoke with colleagues and friends and They responded Stephen.

Yeah, we think this this is this is for you.

We think this is a good fit and that was 13 years ago and

I've never looked back since I Week by week year on year.

I grow more and more passionate for this cause as the burden of

the ancient people grows heavy on my heart and I desire to see particularly here as he has now brought

me across the pond to the United States That I would see the church

mobilized To recognize this Important mission field that's on our own

doorstep.

Whereas again, I've repeatedly said 42 of the world's Jewish population live in the United States,

so Churches Christians here in the United States.

Let's get our act together and see this important mission field that the Lord has preserved and

placed Providentially right next to us.

There's no other country on the planet that has as many Christians and Jews living side -by

-side we have Approximately five to six million Jewish people living in the United

States.

How many Christians?

Well again Conservative estimate maybe it's certainly in the millions maybe tens of

millions in the United States.

No other country on the planet has as many Christians and Jews living side -by -side And so and even the

resources we have And the opportunities we have here in the US.

I would simply say that to whom much has been given you know much will be required and

Therefore again as our Scottish forefathers with limited resources, but with a theological burden

We're so passionately concerned to bring the gospel back to those that brought it to us.

Namely the Jewish people I want to see the same kind of burden Become a

flame across this land That my American cousins my

American friends Will really desire to bring the gospel right on their own doorstep to their Jewish

friends.

One of the things that you and I have discussed before before we go into the our discussion on Passover

itself and Obviously, I misspoke in a sense today really.

Well, it isn't the first day of Passover right now because there's sunlight streaming through my window.

It begins at sundown today.

And one of the things that we have discussed in the past is that some

Ministries typically that identify themselves as Messianic and of course not all.

I'm not.

I'm trying not to broad brush here, but Some of them have a misplaced

Emphasis on the nation of Israel where

the allegiance to the nation seems to be first and foremost at the

expense of the actual souls of those Jews living there and.

Globally.

The eternal life of Jewish people Is infinitely more

important than the government?

Yeah.

Of or even in the existence of a plot of real estate in the Middle East and

It seems that some people have far more of an emphasis on that nation, which actually is an

atheist and socialist.

Nation in the Middle East.

I think you're right.

I'm not saying that land issues are unimportant I'm not saying that

issues of Eschatology even are unimportant.

I'm not saying that matters pertaining to Jewishness are not important but

what I would say is if as you as you rightly pointed out if there is a misplaced

emphasis if land becomes more important than the Lord if a

rapture becomes more important than the Redeemer if blood moons becomes more important

than a bloodied Messiah if Jewishness becomes more important than the Jew

called Jesus All of those things I've got issues with it's it's the misplaced

emphasis not that those issues and many many more are not Important they are

important and we need to debate them and we need to discuss them and people will have differing views on them.

But when the land becomes the the one thing I'm sorry, you can

have the land and be lost.

They need the Lord Jesus and shouldn't it.

Be.

Shouldn't our our friends who are very militant about The

United States and in fact, you know all of the Western world being

In unity and having an allegiance to the nation of Israel.

Which I'm not saying that that is wrong.

I'm not saying that that's improper.

I think that they are our greatest ally in the Middle East.

But those Christians that think that that is of primary focus, even if it's

unconsciously they were thinking that way.

And If you were to disagree With them eschatologically or in

some other way that involves the nation.

If you don't believe the nation is a fulfillment of biblical prophecy.

They will very often despise you.

They will call you a heretic and anti -semite a liberal all kinds of things.

They have to be reminded that when that nation began I'm talking about the the new nation that we

see today.

There were literally or virtually no Conservative Jews involved in that.

They were not the Orthodox or Hasidic Jews participating in this.

They were very opposed to it because they believed that the Messiah had to usher in.

The existence of Israel, that's right, and that's where it can get very complicated and

and we in CWI Don't regard the land as

unimportant but we regard the people as of primary importance.

As you as you've rightly said they have a never -dying soul and We need to bring the gospel to the

Jewish people.

The land issue is is is a secondary one and some eschatological issues are also

Somewhat secondary.

Having settled that I repeatedly use a phrase theology drives missy ology.

In other words if we get our theology, right? then our missy ology

flows from that and sometimes we can have a theological understanding

even of the end times.

Which.

Includes the land.

Includes the Jews.

Going back to the land includes a rebuilding of the temple.

It includes a ton of other things.

And therefore that theological position will have implications on the missyological

Outworking of that.

In other words if if that's your theological position your mission is let's get them all back to the

land.

Let's find the red heifer.

Let's get them getting all the implements put together to build the temple.

My issue with that theology is I One.

I don't see it as I understand a reformed perspective in the scriptures.

I don't see it in that way and and very specifically I don't think my forefathers saw it in that way if we can think

of our Presbyterian forefathers or our Baptist forefathers.

And I don't think as I see it even in Scripture the Apostle Paul his heart's desire

his prayer his his weeping his burden was for the Jewish

people to be saved and.

And it just seems to me that we have got distracted on a ton of different things.

And we have lost that one emphasis on What the scripture speaks of as the one thing needful?

Yeah, and the reason that I brought up the the fact that the it was the secularist and the liberal

Jews that were primarily involved in Zionism and restore of the

restoration of the New Israel I brought that up because

just because of the fact that those who have different biblical

interpretations of fulfilled prophecy or eschatology are being accused of anti

-semitism.

And that is an absurd notion.

When you have Jews who did not Jews in mass yes who did not?

Believe that this was Israel many have come to accept it.

Perhaps even the majority.

I'm not sure but well.

I I do think that we we Christians have And and even as

citizens a Either in the u .s..

I'm not a citizen.

I'm a green card holder I'm the legal resident as it's termed.

I'm still I suppose I used to be an alien I'm I'm now I'm not

a regular person perhaps.

I don't know what that means but as we citizens or as people who

live in a in a political landscape we have political positions and

It is right that as we look at the land of Israel or the nation of Israel that we see

That is a democracy in the Middle East and that is an ally.

And we may have reason for having that

Kindliness towards our allies in certain parts of the world, so that's fine the the issue

goes to another level though whenever Christians will say well we got to stand with Israel, and we got to bless Israel

well first of all I got to ask That question what does it mean?

What does it mean to stand with Israel?

What does it mean to bless Israel?

And and we need really to flesh these terms like that.

I think sometimes we use these terms so loosely.

And and we're we're not really even thinking deeply as to what are the implications of will definitely define those

terms.

Well, you think that they should be appropriate way.

I think of them again standing with.

If I stand with someone.

It may be because they need help if I stand with a little old lady

lady that Who needs some help as she needs to cross the road

or if I stand with someone who has just lost a loved one?

I might get alongside that person and be of some Even physical

assistance so again going back to the political question we may stand with a political ally

but in terms of our Unconditional standing with Israel

as a nation I think there are reasons why we Christians perhaps we can't say that

Unconditionally because Israel is not a a Christian nation.

It why should we expect a non -christian nation to act in a certain way?

And why should we simply be standing?

Unconditionally with a nation that may not act totally in a Christian way.

I think politically we may stand with them.

I think Theologically is where I would bring the point to and and so

again going back to our Presbyterian forefathers they desired to express

something of a standing with.

With a desire to bless with the gospel and so ultimately it all goes back to the

gospel.

The standing with someone maybe on their deathbed.

I will I have done so in my pastoral ministry where I will Sit with someone or effectively

stand with someone on their deathbed.

And I want to tell them about Jesus and I want to read them the scriptures.

And I want to bring them eternal truths that will enable them to cross that great River that they are

about to cross.

So our our Standing with Israel must be to bring them to that point

to bring them to the gospel of Jesus their Messiah.

And of course then another word in those phrases that needs to be clarified is the word

Israel itself.

Because indeed in fact someone today Immediately when I told them that my

guest was the North American director of a Christian witness To Israel. He

immediately thought it had something to do with the nation of Israel because of the word Israel in the name.

But that has more than that one meaning.

Of course because.

What does it mean in the scriptures as we read of what the Apostle Paul would?

Would speak of when his heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel.

What was it?

Well, it was for Israel the people.

Or if we read Romans 9 through 11 Where Israel is mentioned, what does it mean it

again?

It means the people.

When when our ministry began 175 years ago our ministry

was.

It was actually named by a different name it was the British Society for the propagation of the gospel

among the Jews.

Because actually in those days there really there wasn't there wasn't Israel the land Palestine was Palestine then

and so our ministry as we have Renamed it to be Christian witness to Israel.

Israel in our name simply means the Jews and it's bringing the gospel to the Jewish people worldwide.

In fact people would be surprised To discover that

Palestinians is.

Really when you when you speak of the Palestinians as an ethnic people, this is a modern

invention.

Hmm, the term Palestinian was always associated with the Jewish people until the

20th century.

Really.

Well both although the the term Palestine

came really in the second century and I think I have a Problem at

times when I hear preachers talking about Jesus walking in the hills of Palestine.

No, he didn't.

We don't read of that in the scripture.

We read of him in in Galilee or Judea or Samaria

or that there were so many different regions.

Wasn't called Palestine in those days and indeed it was named Palestine

Really to thumb the nose at the Jewish people because it referenced back to the Philistines or

Philistines as you pronounce it over here and and it really was to.

The Romans named it that To to be kind of a thorn in the side of the Jewish

people when the Jewish people had been expelled And and dispersed after

the fall of Jerusalem in 8070.

Right, but this understanding of the of these people there now being Palestinians as if they are a

separate ethnic group or country.

This is something that was foreign from history.

Well again that they they have made up their own identity as well.

Right and and and I almost have taken on.

You know an identity and a cause and and even a narrative.

We hear there's a lot of talk these days about fake news and and it seems to me that

we we need to be so so careful about narratives and.

And even a greater understanding of history.

I think I've maybe shared this the last time I was with you or some previous visits, but the narrative on Northern

Ireland during my days.

You know and of growing up.

The narrative in these shores in the United States certainly in some of areas of

Boston and Chicago and.

Was that those Brits were oppressing the poor Catholic Irish and so the narrative

was presented.

We need to raise money and in the in the pubs and bars of

American Irish in Chicago or whatever and money was raised to fund

terrorism and so the narrative that was told here was a false narrative and I and I think

again in the Middle East and indeed not just in the Israel and the Israeli

Palestinian issues.

We need to be so careful about what we're hearing and what we're reading.

Just as even today and with regard to fake news.

And with regard to the news channels and what is being presented as news, which is more.

This is my.

This is my British take on on the American news channels, but it's

it's it's nothing more than political propaganda.

On whatever side of the fence you are and I crave Narratives

and I crave news and I crave that kind of just give me that.

Understanding of what is happening.

Let me think it through don't give me.

One minute of news and then 59 minutes of comment of what you think is going on in the world.

But that's that's another story for another time.

You've really got me sidetracked there.

Well, I want you when we return from the break I'm sure that we will

eventually get into the actual subject of the Passover.

But but when we come back from the break you had a very fascinating experience in Denver.

That I wanted you to share with our listeners that that in some way Relates to some of the things that we've been already

discussing about people who have a misplaced emphasis when it comes to.

Jewish outreach.

Yeah about a month ago.

I was at a conference in Denver.

I'll talk about that whenever we get back.

Yeah, we'll be back after these messages.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own for our guest Steven Atkinson Who is the North

American director for a question a Christian witness to Israel?

Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

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a pastor.

Welcome back.

This is Chris Barnes and if you just tuned us in on This dawn of Passover We

have as our guest today returning to the studio Stephen Atkinson.

He is the North American director of Christian witness to Israel and we are discussing

not only an appropriate Methodology of reaching out to the Jewish

people with the gospel To put things into perspective according to the

priorities First and foremost being being being bringing praise honor and

glory to God being faithful to his word and having a compassion

for the never -dying souls of the Jewish people first and foremost above any other

area that we may have legitimate rights to to

debate or disagree over regarding eschatology or biblical prophecy

and so on.

And I was.

Stephen also is the assistant pastor of Covenant Church, which is a church in the

Presbyterian Church in America also known as the PCA and Fayetteville, Arkansas before we continue with our story about

Denver, Colorado.

Perhaps he could tell our listeners something about Covenant Church.

We failed to mention that earlier.

Well, as you rightly say a member of the PCA and beautiful Northwest Arkansas,

my senior pastor has been there 30 years.

He was the church planter and He was indeed the means of me coming over here and the

the ministry of CWI making its way over here as He and the

congregation there enabled me to be called in that manner and visa was enabled

and ultimately now I'm on a green card and So I'm good for 10 years according to

Immigration and so I'm very thankful for Covenant Church and for the way in which these things have happened providentially.

Hopefully there'll be nothing in this broadcast today that expedites your expulsion from this country.

You never know with iron sharpens irony.

And if anybody is Interested in learning more about Covenant Church in Fayetteville, Arkansas,

you could go to their website Covenant church PCA org.

That's Covenant Church PCA, which stands for Presbyterian Church in America Or Covenant Church

PCA org and also the Christian witness to Israel

Northamerica.

Their website is CWI and a org CWI for

Christian witness to Israel and a for North America org CWI and a org.

You had informed me about something interesting that developed in Denver Colorado at a speaking

engagement that involved the live streaming of a rabbi in Israel.

Some message he was giving and I'm not talking about a messianic rabbi or a Christian rabbi.

An Orthodox Jewish rabbi.

This was a regular rabbi and we I had been asked to take part in this conference and

the conference organizers had deliberately Decided they wanted to expose

the congregation to perhaps things that me we maybe wouldn't be

wholly in agreement with but the reason that was

given to me was that if you if you get a vaccine you you get a little bit of the

you'll get a little bit of the disease and.

But I I kept saying well if you get too much of the disease though, then you get sick.

So.

The situation that was desired was to expose to some of the other things that are out there and indeed it

for me I hadn't I had known Theologically certain things that were out there.

But I was able to see them a little bit up close and personal through the weekend.

So it was helpful to me in that regard.

But there was one incident on the Saturday afternoon where the organizers were live streaming this rabbi.

And again, the conference was entitled why Christians should stand with Israel and I had my

reasons and even my explanation as to what that means.

But the rabbi Obviously wanted to deliver his impression of what that meant.

And what that meant for him was very specifically that Christians should leave Jews alone.

That they should respect Jews and their Judaism.

That they should come visit the land and enjoy Jewishness in the land and

enjoy all of those kinds of things.

But Primarily, he simply said you you really must not consider us as an

evangelistic project.

In fact, that was the liberal approach to Christian missionary involvement in Africa

and all of the foreign lands where Christianity might

might have been a minority.

Missionaries were told by liberals just to bring food and dig wells and Keep your

religion to yourself.

Don't nail your religion to the natives feet.

You know that nonsense, but and and of course, I.

Listened to this with And I wonder would you have would you have done the same thing?

It sounds as if you probably would.

But I listened to this Kind of approach and and I could contain myself no longer

and I simply said.

And I posed the question at the conference Which then was transferred again live to

to our rabbi friend.

I posed the question just like this that in the light of Psalm 67

your ancestors your Jewish ancestors Prayed

that the world might know Israel's God and his salvation.

And my question and my point was My Scots

ancestors Were dancing around stone images in

the days when in Psalm 67 your Jewish ancestors prayed that the

world and the nations may know your God.

And My question was why did you not leave us alone?

Hey man, amen.

And and you know, he fluffed and he huffed and puffed a little bit but never really responded to my

question and I simply then Followed up and said I just want to say

thank you and thank God That your ancestors did not leave us alone.

Amen.

And you see, you know that to remind our listeners of the psalm

Psalm 67.

We sometimes either sing this psalm or we sing a version of it or we read it and we and we immediately

Christianize it and there's a legitimacy to that.

But let's try and put place ourselves in the original context of Psalm 67.

Consider you know a thousand BC a little prayer meeting in Jerusalem

and these little group of Jewish people are saying May God be gracious to us and bless us

and make his face to shine upon us.

That your way may be known on earth.

Your saving power or your salvation known among all nations.

Let the people's praise you.

Oh God.

Let all the people's praise you.

Let the nation's be glad and sing for joy for you judge the people's with equity and guide The

nation's upon the earth and so it continues and the the prayer there.

Of the psalmist and indeed the prayer we might say of that little group of faithful Jews 3

,000 years ago.

Was that God would graciously shine upon the Jewish people so that the

nations of the world so that my Scots Irish ancestors Would come to know

Israel's God and his salvation and that is what has happened.

Thank God, even as I look at my family tree and see as so far as I'm aware.

No one Who knew the Lord but the Lord broke in and the Lord

brought the fulfillment of that Sam into my life and the prayer of those faithful

Jewish people 3 ,000 years ago was fulfilled in Me coming

to know their Messiah and and of course Israel's God.

So my my response to him was no, I will not leave you alone and indeed a little later in the conference

I I suppose I pressed it a little far and I put on my Liam Neeson voice and I

said I will find you and I will tell you about Jesus.

How did he respond to that that was later on in the evening so he didn't he didn't have an immediate answer.

But again it I stress the that that this is an unavoidable we must bring this.

We must bring Jesus before the Jewish people they did it to us praise.

Thank God.

They did it for amen.

I have a very close friend that I've had since 1990 I believe

Robert Unger Orthodox Jewish individual.

He would definitely be on the in the political right as far as the

spectrum is concerned.

Most people would view him as a very conservative person politically, but he Has abandoned the term

conservative because he doesn't think there's anything left to conserve.

He thinks that the country's become so liberal that that conservative is not even an appropriate term because we

need to be a revolutionary rather than conservative.

But um.

Yeah, one of the things that I admire about him is that he has over the years that I've known him.

He's come to appreciate the fact that Christians Care about

his eternal soul enough to evangelize him even

at the risk of Making him or other Jewish people uncomfortable.

You know, he he has come to see this as something that is only a logical

Fruit of somebody that really believes what they say they believe that.

That's wonderful.

That's wonderful that he has realized that because.

The other side of it is that we are being told leave us alone and indeed some So -called Christian pastors are

telling the church Leave them alone like John Hagee for instance like him there.

There are others.

But yes.

It's that kind of theology that some in the Roman Catholic Church.

Would say that we don't need to evangelize our Jewish brothers because they are already Children of

God and we we need not bring them any gospel because they need not any transformation.

You know to the law and to the testimony what says the scriptures and immediately we run to to find What the

Apostle Paul did.

Or or what did the Apostle Peter do on the day of Pentecost.

The day of Pentecost?

He's he's gathered for a Jewish festival and and there are all these faithful Jews that are gathered and suddenly

Peter preaches a sermon and Tells them that you guys have really messed up Jesus

the Messiah my dear friend and rabbi you killed him with the help of lawless men with the help of those

Romans Jews and Gentiles together put him on the cross, but God has raised him

now.

Let me tell you about Jesus and you need to be summoned to come to Christ.

So what did Peter do?

What did the Apostle do when he went across every, you know into every European city?

He found the synagogue first.

I've got to go call in here and talk with Shmuel about about Jesus.

I've got a call and call in here and talk with Yohanan and tell him about Jesus.

Paul the Apostle to the Gentiles goes into every synagogue.

He could find to tell them about Jesus.

So I I find it just ludicrous that either Christian pastors or

or some Christians or others suggest That we should simply leave them alone

my my CEO Friend and colleague with CWI in the UK.

He was brought to faith by a Gentile.

He's a Jewish believer and he was brought to faith by a Gentile going out of his way.

To tell him about Jesus and and he'd I find it strange, but he has said to me Stephen, you know.

You Gentiles are better evangelists of Jewish people than us Jews.

And I I Challenged him a little bit on that.

He said no No he says this is what's happened to me that you went out of your way to tell me

about Jesus and all our Missionaries must do the same and it goes back to really what I was saying earlier

that the You know the gospel came across from Jerusalem Judea Samaria unto

the ends of the earth.

The gospel came across to us.

They did not leave us alone.

Thank God and and we must return that to them.

Amen.

And.

Well, I'm going to wait for us to begin our discussion on the Passover because we're going to another break

in six minutes.

So I will wait till after the break to begin that discussion.

I don't want to interrupt you midstream on that discussion, but.

This political correctness is very disturbing.

When it comes to especially those who claim to be Bible -believing Christians and evangelicals.

How they will put Jewish people in a certain category as if they're safe.

Just because they're Jewish when in Jesus's day.

They weren't safe.

There weren't.

No, but just because they were Jewish.

In fact, they weren't safe.

Anywhere in the Old Covenant just because they were Jewish my heart's desire and prayer to God is that they will be safe.

Is that they will be saved amen and that they will enjoy that Shalom again.

Thinking back to that conference I used an illustration.

It might be helpful.

About standing with Israel and I used the illustration of the Titanic.

The Titanic was the greatest ship ever built.

Of course, it was built by Northern Irishman.

I don't know if you want to take credit for that.

Let me tell you You see if you know the whole story the Titanic was the greatest ship ever built

built in Belfast but and.

And this is where I'll get myself into real trouble.

It was sunk by the pride of an English captain.

The the English captain would not heed the warnings of the iceberg

because he wanted to get.

In record time across the Atlantic you really want to stir up some old feud.

It's the Scots Irish versus the English again.

There you go but we have we have the greatest ship ever built and

We have pride.

Which brings it down and and what do I'm what I what did I do to use the illustration?

Well, we have the old the Old Covenant came with glory says 2 Corinthians 3

it came with glory.

It was a glorious thing.

I think sometimes we in a New Testament Christianity Tend to just ignore two -thirds of

our book of our book there is glory in the Old Covenant, but then there is

surpassing glory in the New Covenant and I think we need to realize that the

the Old Covenant in a sense the Titanic had a lifeboat and

out of that was Jesus and What do you do with folks who are standing on the

Titanic do you do you shuffle the deck chairs on the Titanic?

Do you stand with the people in the Titanic as they are going down or do you point them to the

lifeboat?

And so with our Jewish friends.

Do we simply stand with them as they go into a lost eternity?

Or do we say here's the lifeboat that you guys brought forth?

That to you as Paul writes in Romans 11 to you belong the covenants the promises the

giving of the law the human ancestry of Christ and Paul wept.

Because from that pedigree came the Messiah and yet they don't don't know their own

Messiah.

And that is what makes us weep today.

So we will stand with Israel.

We will walk with Israel.

We will weep with Israel, but above all I will find you and I will tell you about Jesus.

Hey, man, you know, I can recall being at a meeting at a certain

radio station that I'm not going to mention and There was this Jewish celebrity there who

is a political conservative political talk show host who was being added to the

lineup of this Christian station and he during his speech said that the

That his Jewish friends were saying to him.

Are you kidding me?

How could you as a Jew be joining the lineup of an evangelical Christian Network?

They're gonna want to convert you.

It's going to be a mockery of your faith and all these kinds of things and he said nothing could be farther from the truth.

In fact, I've been welcomed to this network with open arms and I have been assured by the leaders of this

network That we don't want you to convert.

We think you're more valuable in the conservative political arena.

Being a Jew since there are so few Jews standing up for conservative Ideals and

morals in the political arena.

We need you to stay the way you are and I was thinking to myself what a despicable

selfish and misplaced Emphasis they were more concerned

over politics than this man's never -dying soul.

And perhaps they were more concerned over ratings than this man's never dying probably more accurate as well.

And I am still those words echo in my mind.

He thought that was a wonderful thing and It is quite sad indeed.

But anyway truly is.

Please join us on the air when we return from our break with a question of your own for Steven Atkinson at Chris Arnson at

gmail .com.

Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnson.

If you just tuned in to iron sharpens iron radio today, our guest has been and will continue to be

Stephen Atkinson assistant pastor of Covenant Church in Fayetteville, Arkansas

and the North American director of Christian witness to Israel also known as CWI

and we are about to enter into a discussion on the Passover.

We are today now in the dawn of Passover pass out.

Passover begins at sundown today.

And if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own our email address is Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Chris Arnson at gmail .com before I return to our discussion with Reverend Atkinson.

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Thank you very much for your time we are now returning to our discussion with Steven Atkinson of

Christian witness to Israel and I'd like to begin our discussion on

The Passover, but first we are going to go to a listener in Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York

CJ who asks.

Do Jews who are not Christians worship the same one true God that Christians

worship?

Knowing that they do not believe in the Trinity.

It is a good question and it sometimes Can be

misunderstood in terms of what the question is and in terms of the answer that may be given them.

I'm giving that just really as as a disclaimer.

We worship the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob yes the God and Father of our Lord Jesus

Christ.

The Jewish believers in the Old Covenant days worshipped

God the living and the true God.

They did not know him.

Perhaps as the three -in -one.

They knew him Again from the scriptures in some understanding of

a plurality of majesty perhaps.

And the Hebrew would suggest that That but they did not know him in terms of

the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

But they were saved by his blood.

They weren't saved by work so Old Covenant believers are saved in exactly the same way as

New Covenant believers.

They look forward they looked forward in faith, and we look back in faith so

they wouldn't have had the whole picture, but nonetheless they Received in faith that

gracious gift of salvation.

But the question perhaps is a little bit more specific.

Does it for Jewish people today?

Who worship according to the Torah.

But do not know Jesus.

Are they worshiping the same God.

Sometimes people will say yes, and sometimes people will say no.

I think that it is a theological question.

I think that what I would stress is some Missiologists would say that Muslims worship the

same God because the word for God in Arabic is Allah.

So when they worship Allah they are worshiping God.

The the one true living God and I would have to say no.

Because just because they use a word doesn't mean they're worshiping the true God.

But there is a sense of continuity of Christians Jewish Christians or Gentile

Christians.

There's a continuity with the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob, and I'm really

Not ducking the issue my Jewish friends who worship God Are

worshiping as so far as they know the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob, but they do not know

Jesus and Therefore they are lost and we have unashamedly said that no one can come to

the father.

But except for me, of course, so, you know, I'm trying not to to be to duck the

issue.

They are lost and they need to hear the gospel.

But I think also we need to retain our continuity with the believers of the Old Testament.

And that's why I say that we are we Christians are worshiping the God of Israel.

So in answer to the question, it's a long roundabout answer to the question perhaps.

It's not really so much our Jews worshiping the same God as us.

I Prefer to answer it.

Are we worshiping the same God as the God of Israel and we would say yes.

We are because of the Lord Jesus Christ.

We are worshiping the same God in the Old Covenant or the Hebrew Scriptures and Not

necessarily the God of those in modern -day Israel and.

So today is the dawn of the first day of Passover.

Tell us I mean There are the most of our listeners will have a cursory at

least a cursory Knowledge of Passover if not an in -depth one.

But the you have all kinds of listeners to this program.

You have people who are new Christians.

You have people who are seasoned Christians people who are pastors and theologians.

You have people who are not even Christians at all.

I have even a Muslim listeners and so on on occasion who have written to me and

people of other faiths and people who profess to be agnostics or atheists.

Why is this day so important on the Jewish calendar.

Tell us.

Biblically and historically what this event was all about.

I think even just to take one step back from that and maybe like maybe lighten it a

little bit, but I have a three sentence phrase which summarizes the whole of the Jewish

festivals and I hope it's not too banal to say.

But if you if you want a quick summary of all the Jewish festivals I can give you in three sentences.

They tried to kill that they tried to kill us.

God saved us.

Let's eat.

And drink and so tonight Tonight the Jewish people will remember that

that they tried to kill us the Egyptians tried to kill us.

God saved us and L 'chaim, so let's eat and they will have a sumptuous

meal tonight.

And there's a number of different things that will be going on even prior to Passover and in the

evening.

And the symbolism that proceeds throughout the evening and even the festivity and the and the

feast Will all represent a number of different things.

And so I thought it might be helpful just for us to to discuss or to walk through some of those

things the festival itself celebrates the deliverance of the Israelites from slavery in Egypt

and all the symbols on the table and the Passover table.

And the various things that they proceed through in terms of what they sing and what they read.

All point back to that event.

One of the things I find very interesting is the way in which the Apostle Paul

Uses some of the the symbols and some of the aspects of Passover and

helpfully explains things to us Gentiles and

Indeed brings the importance of some of these things into a new covenant context

and even within.

Therefore what our Lord did and the night he was betrayed and what Christians do then in terms

of the Lord's Supper.

There is a a time of preparation if we can slip back one day prior to Passover.

Or even even before that there is there is a great deal of cleaning that

goes on in the Jewish.

Obviously that has not occurred in the studio.

I'm not going to mention anything of the studio.

I'm very comfortable sitting here as you know.

I was on a long trip in Indianapolis and didn't have time.

Anyway, well you you need to get ready for Passover brother.

So the the Jewish household will be cleaned the children will be cleaned there will

be given new clothes.

There will be a cleansing in preparation for Passover and particularly a

cleansing of leaven of yeast and the eradication of.

Yeast.

In from the household, but there is the putting out and casting out of of the leaven.

And all that leaven they actually deliberately leave a few crumbs for

the children to to find and they go on a hide -and -seek and find this

last little bit of leaven this lad these last few crumbs of of bread or

cake or whatever it might be and they take it and Wrap it in paper and

they burn it The next morning.

So what would be this morning?

So they would on the day before Passover there would be a very deliberate cleansing and

and and removing of the leaven in Preparation for Passover and it

reminds me therefore of what Paul says in first Corinthians 5 and verse 7 Where he says

cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump.

As you really are unleavened for Christ our Passover lamb has been

sacrificed.

Let us therefore celebrate the festival not with the old leaven the leaven of malice and evil

But with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

And I think it's for it's helpful for us Christians, even as we then take our New Testament or our

New Covenant counterpart of the Passover and Enjoy the

Lord's table and come to communion and again, the Apostle Paul writes of the

preparation for coming to the table and he says let a man examine himself and

So let him eat.

And in a sense what he's doing there is simply saying in in Passover.

We cleanse the whole house we search the whole house and we get rid of the

old leaven and In our New Testament context, we are to do self -examination.

We are to see test me try me.

Oh Lord see if there be any wicked way within me and lead me in the way Everlasting and it is a good

principle for us as we Think of our Jewish friends Cleansing

the house for Passover that we Christians Do a soul search and

the the house of our lives the house of our souls that we examine ourselves As we

come to the Lord's table as we come to the Lord's worship.

Now I'll list some of the other elements that would be.

Or list all of the elements that would be present at the Passover meal because there is a

very specific and important Change that takes place after 80 70 as

to how this day is celebrated.

Well, it is there is no sacrifice obviously, but there will be a lamb

Bone on the Passover plate, which will symbolize the Passover lamb there will

be a roasted egg and There are a number of different

Reasons and suggestions as to what that symbolizes and and and of course, there's no

one.

It doesn't simply symbolize one thing, but the roasted egg will will symbolize roasted sacrifices.

An egg also symbolizes new life the hard

boiled roasted egg some suggest it symbolizes Pharaoh's hard heart and

Indeed the blackened roasted egg will symbolize the the destruction of the temple and

the blackening burning Of the temple, so we've got the lamb bone.

We've got a roasted egg.

There will be bitter herbs.

You say herbs.

I say herbs tomato tomato.

But there will be bitter herbs, yes, I'm becoming an American, okay and there

so there will be parsley or sometimes celery or lettuce and There will be

horseradish and the herbs are very deliberately Tasted at various

parts of the of the evening.

And the specifics of that is is to bring forth tears.

Because they were in slavery in Egypt and the weeping and the tears

of their enslavement Are represented in the bitter herbs and and the

horseradish.

Then also they have an interesting little mix, which is called carousel.

I love that which is a sweet mix of nuts and apple and honey and

Again in the symbolism, there's a symbolism of fruitfulness.

There's a symbolism of sweetness and in the midst of the

Bitterness there is sweetness In the midst of their slavery.

There is the deliverance.

There is the promise and there is then the ultimate deliverance.

So again on the Passover plate there will be those items That will display and as they proceed

through the evening they will be not only remembering the bitterness Bitter

tears, they will also remember the sweetness of deliverance.

They will also have four cups of wine and wine

gladdens the heart and According to the rabbis it is okay to get a little

shicker.

Passover.

And now.

Is this Canonical advice or is this rabbinical tradition?

I think this is.

Rabbinical tradition that it is okay to To to enjoy and and gladden the

heart with with four cups of wine.

Now, of course the four cups take place over about three hours of three to four hours of their evening meal.

But it is four cups of wine.

They also set out a fifth cup for Elijah.

So there is a fifth plate For Elijah and going through the evening as well.

There is a time when they Send the children to the front door

To look down the street to see if if there's an old guy with a beard

that might be appearing because they set out a place for Elijah and in the hope that Elijah may show up

at their Passover meal because Before Messiah comes Elijah will come.

I remember doing a Passover demonstration in Kansas and I sent

this young kid out the door To see if there was any old guys with gray

beards Walking the street and he came back in and said yeah, there's a lot of them.

I Need to be careful where I tell that.

So they have the cups they have a fifth cup for Elijah.

Have I forgotten?

Yeah, they and then they have the matzah.

And the matzah tash or the matzah bag has three sections to it

so there will be three pieces of matzah and those three

if anyone has ever seen any matzah or if you haven't just quickly google it and you'll see An

image of matzah and it's very distinctive.

You are definitely in the heartland of America.

If you've never seen if you've never seen matzah.

Matzah is distinctive.

It is pierced and striped and that's not even necessarily.

What was being used it was unleavened bread to be unleavened bread unleavened bread.

But if you if you buy the the kosher matzah today in the stores.

You will and you look at it.

You will see that it is pierced little dots in it and it is the way it's been baked.

There are stripes.

So what immediately comes to mind when you hear that phrase pierced and striped.

Right.

The Lord's punishments.

And not only the Lord's punishment, but the prophesied Lord's punishment.

So you don't you don't you don't think this is coincidence.

You think I do not think this is coincidence.

Again some would suggest and and this is not totally verified.

But some would suggest that in Jewish seders today There are some traditions that

have come in that may be Christian in the sense that

in the early church or post temple destruction when Christians and Jews were

generally meeting together and and the the Followers of the way were simply

a sect within Judaism of the day and so they may have enjoyed Passover

together and there were perhaps some Christian symbolism went into

the the Seder.

In fact, we're gonna stop right there because I don't want to cut you off in mid -sentence.

And we're going to go to our final break it will be briefer and when we return we will conclude with the

remainder of what we have on the Passover and if anybody would like to join us

our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

In fact, let me just quickly before we go to the break and you could answer it when we return.

We have BB in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania.

Who wants to know?

There is a difference of opinion amongst Christians on whether or not we need to use unleavened bread when we celebrate the Lord's Supper.

To parallel what would took place at the Passover?

Do you think that this has any relevance at all?

And perhaps you could answer that when we return and then you could pick up where you left off.

I will do so and If anybody as I said would like to join us now is the time to do so because we are

running out of time.

Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

If you have a question for our guests on the Passover and Please give us your first name city and

state and country of residence.

We'll be right back after these messages.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arns.

And if you just tuned us in our guest today for the full two hours with about 25 minutes to go has been

and will continue to be Stephen Atkinson the North American director of a Christian

witness to Israel.

And We are discussing the Passover right now.

And before the break BB in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania wanted to know if Christians

should be using Unleavened bread in their Lord's Day service observance

or their Lord's Supper Observance or does it not matter at all?

I I think it's fair to say that we want to be as close to what was the

original.

And my personal preference would be for using unleavened bread or using matzah to me that makes

normal sense.

In fact to me it's rather strange and I travel around a lot of churches and I don't make an issue of it and I wouldn't

be legalistic about it and I it's it's not something to die for perhaps but I think if

we are trying to Make sure that we show a continuity With

that Christianity is Jewish as Edith Schaeffer's book rightly points out.

That we would use what Jesus used when he said this is my body broken for you.

He broke matzah and there's no, you know, there's no question of that that's what happened in the upper room and

Therefore I would agree with with the listener and suggest that perhaps more and more churches Just need to think a

little bit more as to why we what what should we use?

And and again, I think even through the in the break you and I had a little bit of a conversation as well and

We don't use orange juice.

We we use grape juice.

Whether it is alcoholic or non -alcoholic or Again fruit of the law, but we use

the fruit of the vine.

We don't use the fruit of the orange tree.

And I think with regard to the bread it would be more authentic.

And indeed meaningful and in perhaps even meaningful to our Jewish friends who may stumble in on

our services and wonder What are you doing here with?

Yeast.

Because in actual fact as we pointed out earlier They they cleanse the house because

yeast represents sin and For us to eat bread with

yeast in it is almost suggestive that You know, it's okay to sin.

Again, I'm not I'm not really trying to make hard and fast rules here But I would simply make a plea for us to be

a little bit more thoughtful And endeavor to be authentic and so I'm with I'm with your listener and I would I would

plea for unleavened bread.

Yes, just like.

No matter what side of the baptism issue you are on you happen to be Presbyterian.

I'm a Reformed Baptist.

We still believe that water is involved and that the application of water to the the

Baptismal candidate is involved and not just the waving of a glass of water over the head of the person.

Or or a glass of orange juice.

In fact, I remember Robert Shuler saying that he baptized Someone in the waiting room of a

doctor's office by dumping Fresco over their head or some.

Ridiculous thing.

But anyway.

I.

Never mind, I'm going to say something that I'll regret later.

But anyway, but if you could pick up where you left off as well.

Where did I leave?

Oh, well, we were talking about the elements.

Of I think we'd got on to the matzah.

Yeah, and and the the The piercing and stress right?

Yes, and stripe matzah.

It's it's indicative of the piercing and and and Jesus own

stripes we may say Involved in his sacrifice and tell us about the the

aficommon.

Yeah, I'll come to that in a moment because that is a very vital point to the The matzah

itself.

There are three matzah and I think what I was referencing a little earlier too was there may have been some Christian

Traditions right that had come in.

And of course the rabbis today totally say no no, no, no, no.

But why three matzah?

Why a matzah tash?

Why a matzah bag with three and some?

Scholars would suggest that it represents father son and Holy Spirit and of course the rabbis will say

no.

No, that's just crazy.

But the the truth is they really don't know exactly Why there are three they

will have reasons why there are three months, but they won't exactly say they know why so this is a non.

Canonical element.

Yeah, yeah.

The the well it we haven't got a clarity we haven't got clarity with regard to

it's it's like fiddler on the roof tradition.

You know, there are many many traditions That are that have come in over the years

that the rabbis will give reasons for.

But there may be not Full -proof reasons as to why they do certain things.

So we have three months.

Oh why I might suggest.

Maybe some messianic maybe some early believing Jews.

Put this in but we have a situation where three months are in the bag.

The middle matzah is taken and is broken.

What does that represent again?

We can immediately see.

You know.

Christ symbolism there and not not the first not the third.

The middle matzah is broken and you mentioned a free common and that's a very important point because that

middle matzah as it is broken the half of it which is broken is then

wrapped in a napkin is taken away is hidden from view

for the next three hours as they have their meal and after

three hours that broken middle matzah placed in a napkin

is brought back.

And I've got to say, you know, can you not see something in the symbolism of that of.

Jesus.

Being broken.

This is my body broken for you.

He.

Dies, he is placed in a napkin not for three hours, but three

days and he is brought back and He again should

displays himself as as the the one who is alive forever more and

Again, the AFI common it is called the AFI common.

Again, different people will explain that in different ways.

Scholars would suggest it has Greek and Hebrew roots to it.

But they tend to be united in suggesting that the word means he who is

coming again.

Or he who is coming after so we have this half matzah that

is brought back and It represents he who is coming again.

I've got to say that's Christological.

I've got to say that that's Messianic in the Jewish Passover that they will be doing

this evening in their homes and It points to Jesus.

Pray pray my my Christian friends pray that God Will open

their eyes will take the veil from their eyes and see Christ in the Passover.

Amen, one thing that we kind of glossed over but I think is very crucial because it involves the

very atonement for sin that Jews need today and without

them.

Bowing the knee and worshiping the Jewish Messiah or the Messiah of Jew and Gentile the Lord Jesus Christ

the one true Messiah.

This this.

Without that Messiah, they will not have eternal life.

They will have no atonement and that is connected to the lamb.

Being absent from the Passover plate today.

Yeah, they don't have either on Yom Kippur.

They don't have an atonement or in Passover.

They don't have a Passover.

They don't have Christ our Passover lamb and so we again we must take them back to

you know to Leviticus or to To their book and say without the shedding of blood.

There is no remission for sin, and I'm sorry, mr Rabbi, you can't just make it up and just say well.

You just got to be sorry for your sin now and it's okay and God's okay with that.

No, he said without the shedding of blood There is no remission for sin and we've

got to say well.

We have the shed blood and they used to and they used to from the very beginning.

For all those years God demanded blood.

He demanded death in the place of another.

Why is it that God simply simply changes his mind and said it's okay.

Just just have a little bit of Jewish repentance there and and that's okay.

I'm sorry that doesn't cut it with anyone God is I am the Lord I change not.

So, how can how can the rabbis reinterpret what those scriptures originally said

pertaining to a blood sacrifice a necessary blood sacrifice and indeed some

in the ultra -orthodox will continue to Sacrifice

chickens big and it's frowned upon to some degree, but some will do that because they

recognize it has to be blood and This is why we we've got to take

them back to this and show that the blood sacrifice was made in the Lord.

You know and it had to be a spotless lamb.

Did it not?

Yes.

Yes, and.

Symbolizing a perfect.

Sinless Savior.

Yes, and and here we have we have the spotless lamb this this is a story that we we've got to tell this.

This is something that we need to bring to our Jewish friends.

This is the greatest story ever told and they brought it to us and they brought that Sacrifice to us to

that that we might have our sins washed away.

How dare we?

Withhold such amazing gospel truth from our Jewish friends now.

Why is it that when the temple was destroyed in? 8070 that there were

no Sacrifices continuing after that for instance when when an

average Jewish family Was partaking in the Passover the way it was

originally intended with the sacrificed lamb.

Were they not doing this in their own homes from their own flocks or were they actually traveling to the temple?

How did that work?

Well again.

After the after the temple was destroyed there was no possibility and you know I meant before the destruction of the temple

before that.

Well you you had for the for the full Following of the rules.

You came to Jerusalem for the temple feasts and that's why you know whenever I mentioned

earlier Pentecost.

There were there were you know, a large group of Jewish people from all over the known world.

They had come.

Why did they come.

They didn't celebrate Pentecost in their own?

Localities.

They came to Jerusalem and it was there that Peter preached Christ and then they were sent out to

Their synagogues to tell others about Jesus.

So it had to be in Jerusalem and the Jew today has to wonder and they

must have been wondering since.

8070 why God Would allow the Roman armies to

destroy that sacred place if he was not pouring out a chastisement.

Well, they have reasons for that.

They they will have it.

They will have answers to that.

They will have reasons for that.

Not not reasons that we will be sufficiently satisfied with but they will have reasons for that.

But you're absolutely right.

God did something decisively in ending the whole sacrificial system.

Because the one sacrifice had already been made and they really have no legitimate claim to an atonement

that they have really created.

A.

Fantasy world in regard to that that an unbiblical.

Uncanonical even according to their own Hebrew Scriptures.

I believe so.

I think this is where you know our we need just to have a little bit more of an insight into

modern Judaism because while We have 2 ,000 years of church history

and indeed some of it is bad church history I'm pertaining to the Jewish people a lot of it is bad church

history.

But we have also got to bear in mind 2 ,000 years of rabbinic reinterpretations, so, you know,

I Go and I visit different churches and they talk to me about their Jewish friends and you know, they they ask me

Well, are they are they going to be like the Jews that we read of in the scriptures?

And I said no, no, no.

They're they're probably far far removed from that because mr. Rabbi has has so reinterpreted

things.

That don't assume that your understanding of Jews and Judaism from the

scriptures is going to be the same as The shul down the road.

No, do you agree with the assessment of one of my.

Messianic Jewish friends who's now with the Lord actually in heaven.

My dear friend Marty from who I miss greatly.

He was a precious brother and dear friend, even though we had differences on eschatology and things like that.

We were very good friends for quite a number of years going back to 1985 actually and he just went home to be

with the Lord and glory about a year ago or so, but he said that a

an Orthodox Jew would look upon you with horror and perhaps even

consider you a blasphemer if you were to walk over to the plates of those celebrating the

Passover and perhaps even in a naive way thinking you were being hospitable and Trying to be original

started carving up a lamb on their plates.

That would be something it looked upon as horrific because there is no sacrifice.

It's not supposed to be a lamb there.

Yeah, though.

They they would be horrified and We've got to be sensitive.

We've got to be sensitive to our friends.

The veil is still over their eyes and we got a pray that that veil would be removed.

They have experienced a hardening.

In part there is a judicial aspect to that.

But there's also a divine providential aspect to it in the sense that they have experienced a hardening for our

sakes.

For us Gentiles so that we may know mercy.

Thank God that he has been merciful to us unclean goyim.

But with the mercy that we have received we are to respond to them

with mercy.

RJ and White Plains, New York wants to know it should we have no fear of Judgment as God

judged a dab and a by Hugh for offering strange fire when we participate in the Seder

that has new Uncanonical elements added to it.

I'm tempted to say no comment.

To getting into a strange fire debate, I think that will demand several more hours.

Well, obviously you don't really believe that since you enjoy and participate in Seder.

No, I make it very clear when I do it a demonstration that it is just that though that it is a demonstration because I'm not

Jewish and I'm I make it clear to my I'm doing one this Thursday actually in

a Presbyterian Church and I will make it clear at the outset that it is a demonstration.

In order to display Christ in the Passover in the elements of the Passover

there is a sense in which Passover changed post destruction

of the temple there there is a sense in which there has been a some measure of fluidity

and and and you know more traditions being added to the Passover and so.

You know, I I wouldn't I wouldn't enter into the strange fire debate on something like that.

Well.

I definitely want you to Have an uninterrupted period of time now to just summarize what you most want

etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners before we run.

Out of time and then if we have time we'll go to another listener question if we have one or so.

I'm again.

I go back to where I began the the wonderful truth is that by the grace of God the

message of Israel's God and His salvation has come to us and and I want to

unavoidably and unashamedly Bring that gospel back to our Jewish friends and as we

are at Passover evening.

That I would ask my Christian friends to be praying for our Jewish neighbors that

God would open up their eyes.

And that by his grace even in the reading of the scriptures that they'll be reading that they will

consider Who it speaks of search the scriptures they speak of me said Jesus

and what did he mean by that?

He actually meant the Jewish scriptures because that was the only scriptures at the time and So the Jewish

scriptures that they will be reading they speak of him and the and the Passover itself

Will speak of him as the Lord takes the veil away from their eyes.

I Remember, I I need to tell a little story.

I remember hearing the story of Moshe Rosen From the finding member of Jews for Jesus

and he was a friend of James Montgomery Boyce was you know?

Yes, I believe he was.

Yes.

I was never privileged enough to meet him.

I some of my colleagues did meet him, but I did hear the story of his first

attendance at church when it was communion and He had

started to attend church and again.

It was we need to come to a sensitivity and an understanding of our Jewish friends what it would be like for them to

come Into our churches do will they see something that is recognizably?

Connected to their religion.

Or is it going to be completely foreign as I said earlier Christianity is Jewish.

We need to show some measure of continuity.

And so Moshe Rosen started attending church and and this very helpful lady Explained to him now you

stand up here you sit down there you you sing this you do this you do this and so he was

learning all the various things week in week out and Then the week was coming along that it was

going to be communion and she said to him It's it's it's gonna be communion next week.

Oh, you'll love that because it's just like Passover and He thought okay.

All right.

I know this one.

Okay.

I'll come I'll come really prepared so the Sunday arose and

he came along to the church for communion.

And he decided he wouldn't have any breakfast because if it's like Passover, you know, he he

doesn't need any breakfast because Passover he thinks of as a sumptuous meal, so he comes

along and there's he comes into the church and he sees this shroud

over.

Something and he'd heard about these Christians and what these Christians might be doing with a body and

Blood of the Lord and he's starting to wonder what's going on here.

Is there a body under that shroud?

And then he and then he sees these deacons come up and they lift the shroud off and and and there's this

little cup.

And there's this little piece of bread and and he says this is supposed to be like

Passover.

This is nothing like Passover.

But it was a you know, it alerted him to the fact that we have gone some ways away

from Passover.

Now when we come to our Lord's Supper, yes, it's bread.

It's wine and there is a simplicity to the meal.

But we do need to be sensitive to our Jewish friends and our Jewish friends who may come into our churches.

So you don't believe as some sects do That the Lord's Supper

should be a Passover a Seder exactly the way it used to be.

No, I.

Don't see any.

I don't think that's what the Lord has instituted for us.

And I don't think that's what took place in the New Testament Church.

There were Passovers and indeed the Apostle continued to to you know, as I read in 1st

Corinthians Let us keep the festival.

So he was keeping the festival.

But we there was also the love feasts and there was also the communion and there was also the

eating and drinking.

In that context of the New Covenant and the and the institution of the sacrament as the Lord gave it

now there are some.

Christian congregations fellowships brotherhoods denominations.

That will have the Lord's Supper every week and there are some that have it monthly.

Some of them have it biannually and some will follow The Jewish calendar and have it when

Passover begins.

What is your understanding of that?

Do you think that it really matters or again?

I've been in churches where all of the above kind of thing.

Well, maybe not all of the above but I've been in in a denomination where it was celebrated

twice a year.

I've been in churches where it was once a month.

I've been in churches where it was every week.

My personal preference probably is To be once a month, but that's that's a that's simply

a preference I find sometimes if we are doing it every week, it loses something

of its of our preparation perhaps.

You know in the old Scottish manner.

It was celebrated twice a year and there was a whole weekend of preparation and There was a it was

a very large event and not only in the Sunday and then the Monday.

There was a Thanksgiving as well and so there was a heightening of the

the sacrament and the coming to the Lord's table and I like that sense of Having

a heightened understanding of the privilege that is ours at the Lord's table.

So I would probably go further than every week but maybe

more frequently than twice a year.

But as as the local eldership would consider appropriate I would

I would happily submit to that and I want to make sure before we run out of time that our listeners.

Have your contact information once again the Covenant Church in

Fayetteville, Arkansas.

Where you are an assistant pastor their website is Covenant Church PCA

org Covenant Church PCA which stands for Presbyterian Church in America

Covenant Church PCA org and also the website for Christian Witness

to Israel North America is CWI for Christian Witness to Israel NA

for North America org CWI NA org.

Do you have any other contact information that you'd like to care share with our listeners?

It's all there on the website.

If you want to get my email address, it's there on the website as well.

I'd love to visit with you.

I'd love to visit churches If we have time.

Chris, yes, I'd like to really just draw things to a conclusion.

As as our Lord drew it to conclusion on the night in which he was betrayed.

There were a number of things that happened in the upper room and we could helpfully discuss them.

But I want us to think about what he sang as.

That last song of the night because they would have sang the the Halal

Psalms.

We read in the scriptures that when they had sung a hymn they went out to the mind of olives.

Well, that's not entirely accurate.

They really sang a psalm and.

The last one would be Psalm 118.

And if I could just simply read a couple of verses I think it's very very poignant sure for us to

think of Jesus on the night in which he was betrayed.

Singing the these very verses Psalm 118 verses 6 and 7 we read

this.

This is Jesus saying they're singing this the Lord is on my side.

I will not fear.

What can man do to me?

The Lord is on my side as my helper.

I shall look in triumph on those who hate me.

And then further down to verse 22 to 24 of Psalm 118 the stone that the

builders rejected has become the cornerstone.

This is the Lord's doing and it is marvelous in our eyes.

This is the day that the Lord has made.

Let us rejoice and be glad in it.

And Jesus on the night in which he was betrayed ends the evening.

Indeed begins the next day.

By saying this is the day this.

This is the day.

The Lord has made.

And for the next 24 hours What is going to happen as sundown as he goes out.

He goes to be betrayed to be mocked in trial and to be crucified and die.

For sinners like you and me.

This is the day.

So tonight we celebrate with our Jewish friends The day the Lord has made

and we will rejoice and be glad in it.

Amen.

Well, thank you so much Steven Atkinson for being my guest today.

I'm so delighted that the Lord providentially worked it out.

So you would be in the studio with me rather than on the phone on this very appropriate day.

The the dawn of Passover as it approaches.

Now as I look out the window and the Sun is going down I hope that you return very soon and very often to iron sharpens

iron radio.

I will do so and I hope everyone listening will always remember for the rest of their lives Jew and Gentile

alike that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.