August 7, 2003

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now at 602 -973 -4602 or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 -877 -753 -3341. And now with today's topic here is James White. And good afternoon and welcome to the dividing lines.

Preparing for the Mary Debate with Eric Svendsen

Good to have you listening this afternoon as we have a number of things to discuss today. Don't forget coming up on the 19th, we will be joined by Eric Svendsen. We're going to be analyzing various statements made by Roman Catholic apologist Jerry Matitix and their debate on Mary sort of in preparation a little bit of a preview of what I can expect in the Debate coming up in October between myself and mr. Matitix on the exact same subject.

I don't know that I've ever done a debate where I was able to listen. Well, I'll take that back. I had heard mr. Matitix debate on solo scriptura, but not not against anyone who was particularly compelling.

Prior to my first debate with him, so I couldn't say that I've necessarily really had that opportunity before. It is an interesting. Interesting way of preparing for debate is hearing exactly how it's been debated before so.

One thing that will be different is I think we'll have a few more Protestants at this one and there was at the one that.

Mr.

Spencer was talking about that sense of talking about there. He was on one of two Protestants in the room or at least evangelicals in the room. Anyway, so that'll be a lot of fun. But first before we get started with the program today I would like to welcome to the program Back from where.

I bet it's a it's a lot more humid than it is here. But probably not quite as hot as it is here, Florida. Michael Fallon is on the phone. How you doing, Mike? Good. How are you, sir? Do you like having air conditioning in your car now?

Yeah, actually I've had it. I've been under the luxury of air conditioning for a good two years.

Providentially I gave you that you don't you don't drive down the road with your hands out the out the window with the the air.

Rushing through the shirt type thing only for for just good fond memories of spending time with you.

I.

Tell you you just adapt, you know, it's it's all you do what you have to do. And that was up. What's that? What's the humidity like out there this time of year? Believe it or not. You really want to know.

Between 95 to 100 percent. 95 to 100 percent. Well, do you even bother with towels after showers or do you even bother with showers?

Well, you would know that.

Okay.

Okay, all right, well we'll move on from there I decide let you know it's 108 degrees here right now and 109 degrees that was 0 .62 degrees. So the boy just stick an apple in your dog's mouth and yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, the heat index is 112. So it's it's pretty nice out here right now. It truly is. Anyway, we're getting out of all this stuff Come come December on a little old cruise that you have arranged and there's breaking news in regards to the cruise because how long ago was it that basically we sort of said well, We've sort of sold all our cabins.

How long has that been now?

Not long at all. Actually, we sold out of all of our cabins in mid-june. Okay, we have been without the ability to book into any more crew any more cabin since that time. We sold If your folks can believe it 86 cabins.

Wow. And the amount of persons that we had attending our cruise is up to right now at about a hundred and eighty. Including folks that are three in a room and four in a room and so forth, right? Right, so we have a tremendous amount of people that for some reason want to come in and listen to you James.

No, I don't. I reject that. That's not why they're coming. But now is Warren if he still could be in the dinghy behind the boat that we're just going to tie to the back.

Is that is that still how Warren's going? No, actually. We filled out the the work papers for him and she's going to be our dining-room. Steward.

I've got to play that for him. That's great. So it's sort of a work work study program type thing. Is that how it works? I'm gonna say it's good thing. He didn't hear that Warren. We really do. He's a wonderful guy.

Why do we pick on him like this? I don't know. It's a terrible thing. Anyway, you have some some news for us though.

Yes, we do and the great news is that as of right now we have a wonderful Just I mean first of all, I want to give just a word to helping us immensely and You and I are both aware of them. She is in the inside there at Holland America Line and has helped us on numbers of things and her name is Rebecca Laurie and she is Has helped us out with all sorts of tight situations and things and gone to bat for us and Helped out our group and one thing that she's been instrumental in is helping us set up Which is unlike the waitlist group that you would be on if you were trying to book into this ship any other way and we have waitlist prices that are alone for Alpha and Omega.

Now, I want to make sure I.

Understand that this is a waitlist group not a waitlist group. Because yeah, I was. I wasn't really able to tell exactly. There you go.

All right.

Just want to make sure everyone understood that medically the same if you're like if you're like if you're like Mike and I and you're. Not wait less. You can still you can still take advantage of this, right?

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, basically what's happened is that we have rates that are considerably lower than what the general booking rate is. They're not quite where we were. With our original contract before we completely ran out of cabins, but what they are is they're only about 10 higher.

So instead of having an 84 percent discount you have about a 74 percent discount still incredible rates awesome rate 74 percent off the regular rate and You can start in with these cabins with an inside cabin.

Just about $390. Wow, which is still that added with your port taxes to jump on with us I think about nine hundred dollars or as. Right now I'm trying to book some way just to pop Donna's gotten over all sorts of our planning on betting on some sort of thing of A better way to spend exactly the way that we want that sounds really exciting.

Now you said you also needed to talk to the folks who've already signed up that your flight gets in sometime before 5 p .m. Because our debate walk sharp on 7 o 'clock doll. So cruise with us. You will just book you so if you've already signed up for the cruise.

That's what you need to know. Let's say I think you're going to be Testing out the waters with Holland America so you can let us know what well not exactly the same boat in the same.

Same cruise, but yeah I'll definitely let you let you know about What it's like you bet in fact. Noticing in Carl Keating's e-letter that fact I almost forwarded to you and I think I forgot to do so that they just got back from Alaska and It was you know, I still Still wonder what would be like to end up on one, you know the same ship at the same time.

It was just sir. Can you imagine if you're on the ball down with those guys?

And being that I'm yeah end up at the same table or something that would be really.

The water missus. Great time and I don't want to take up any more of your valuable time on this show. And I'll sign off if anybody has any questions. They can give me a call at 7 3 now.

That's the numbers still. That's still a number on the on the website. We'll need to update those. You're gonna be sending us the new prices, right?

We will be. I've already sent rich and you. I think the new price is about a week and a half ago. Oh, okay. Just check your inbox and I will send them again. No. Oh, well, I.

You know, I once I start seeing details my eyes just sort of glaze over if it's not in Greek or something like that. So well, you're not busy or no. No, not not in the slightest. In any way shape or form.

So, okay. Great. Thank you, Mike and Thank you for all you you do and I hope you'll keep listening because maybe something interesting will happen in the program that you never know. Okay, sir. Thanks a lot.

God bless. If you want to see that information. Obviously we I'm not. I don't think we've updated the the prices yet. So just add like 10 to them for the moment, but we'll get that done. That link is still on the main page on our at a omin org.

At least I hope it is. So eight seven seven seven five three three three four one is the phone number. If you want to jump online and have questions we've been having just a tremendous amount of audience participation the past few weeks and I'm looking forward to that continuing because that really does help a lot in Making sure that we're talking about the things that interest you folks.

Cross-Examining Jerry Matitix on Mary and the Brothers of Jesus

I did want to play. Just again to remind you all and we'll need to turn the computer up here I want to play a another little section just a brief one not as long as I did. The last time from the Eric Spencer and Jerry Maddix debate.

We're not gonna be able to get to all this stuff. Anyways, when Eric is on so it's not like we're gonna there's nothing left to say with Eric because we covered it all this is in the cross-examination period and it was.

Again cross exam is always where you really Start discovering if someone has substance their position or if their position collapses upon Examination that the house of cards and you you the wind blows and it all it all comes that comes apart.

And I think that's pretty much what happened to mr. Maddix presentation. I could certainly tell that in listening to.

What?

He was saying it was very obvious to me that he was playing games in in light of the the clear presentation that meant that professor Svensson had given and. Then a question was asked by Eric Svensson and I.

I just loved how this illustrated the real issue. Let's let's go ahead and listen to to this question. Can I was okay. Okay. Okay. Mr. Mr. Maddix.

Do you believe that Peters mother-in-law had a daughter? So I believe that Peters mother-in-law had a daughter. You believe Peters mother-in-law had a daughter. I Asked it be honest and admit I've never given any thought but can we infer it safely from the text?

There's such a pause there that I'm not sure I don't think this can this can actually actually work. I'm gonna try some but let's listen to this again. Can I was okay, okay, okay, mr. Mr.

Maddix, do you believe that Peters mother-in-law had a daughter? Do I believe that Peters mother-in-law had a daughter. You believe Peters mother-in-law had a daughter. I Asked it be honest and admit I've never given any thought but can we infer it safely from the text?

That Peters mother-in-law had a daughter, right?

This is what this is what this makes me makes me think of when I when I when I hear this. Why isn't it working? Oh, I know why it's not working. It would help if I did it, right? Did Peters mother-in-law have a daughter.

Now think about it you can tell you know, this had never been thought of before. But you see what he's trying to get at and I'll let I'll let it play out with you. I'll quit playing but but. It's it's obvious to me.

Jerry knows exactly where this is. Can I was okay, okay, okay, mr. Mr. Maddix.

Do you believe that Peters mother-in-law had a daughter? Do I believe that Peters mother-in-law had a daughter. You believe Peters mother-in-law had a daughter. I Have to be honest and admit I've never given any thought but can we infer it safely from the text?

That Peters mother-in-law had a daughter, right? How do we? Help me and infer it from the text or whatever you say is freeze question. Mr. Maddix. Did Peters mother-in-law have a daughter? Well, obviously the wife Peter had a mother-in-law.

Did that mother-in-law have a daughter? Yeah, that's not an inference. I'm saying that's I don't understand your question. Okay, you have Peter married somebody you asked earlier and he married a woman.

You asked earlier whether there was a passage that specifically names or specifically says Mary had other children. But we do have passages where Jesus is said to have brothers. We have passages where Jesus said you have a mother.

We actually infer from that. That the mother of Jesus and the brother of Jesus have the same son daughter son mother relationship. Only the same way in the same way that Peter. We infer from Peter having a mother-in-law and having a wife.

We don't need a New Testament for it in other words to tell us specifically every conceivable way that a relationship might Be in existence. We don't need it to say Peter Peters mother-in-law had other children and one of those children Was a daughter and that daughter married Peter.

We don't need it to say that because we can infer from the common relationship with Peter. Can't we? If there's no analogy this doesn't help your position at all, it does help my position because you're saying that we require a passage that says specifically Married had other children.

But that would be like that is requiring a passage that says Peter's mother-in-law had other children before we could believe that there was a daughter. Mother relationship with Peter's wife and Peter's mother-in-law.

The reason the analogy doesn't hold is because Peter has to marry a woman. So, of course his mother-in-law would have to have a daughter but the word of Delphi's both sides agree. Even though you don't think it's relevant in these instances can be used has been used both in a broader and narrower sense.

So we're not necessarily driven to the conclusion in what age if we're told that Jesus had brothers. Therefore we don't need a statement that Mary had children that can only be interpreted in that one way.

Can you cite one instance where I'll foster all the pages use that way in the New Testament era? The very instances that we're debating. Yes. Yeah. No, but did you hear that?

That did you hear that? But well the very pastors that we're talking about talk about circular argumentation. Having to assume the very texts that are under debate. To answer the question and and Eric just nails them that way in the New Testament era.

The very instances that we're debating. Yes. Yeah, no. Presenting from the disputed passages. Can you cite one instance so that we can establish the usage? You can't establish the usage from the disputed text you you are aware of course.

You need to have. There are thousands upon thousands of instances of autophagy in that literature. Mr. Mantis. You can't produce even one. Actually, I let me take back what I just conceded. You can establish usage from a text when you look at how that text is understood.

Yes, and is there something in the context that leads you to believe that these were cousins or close relatives rather than siblings?

It just goes on it was I just I loved the question it was it was so well put and I can guarantee you I'm going to I'm going to raise the very same issue. But I'll probably do it in my presentation as an illustration of the fact that Consistently, mr. Matic's is going to have to take passages in their absolutely most unusual Form to be able to come up with with his position.

It's just I thought that was wonderful. It was it was great. Did did Peter's mother-in-law? Oh, that's that's that's classic. Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one is the phone number and Let's go ahead and start with our phone calls.

We only have one of them at the moment. But that means lines are open if you'd like to if you'd like to join us. Eight seven seven seven five three three Three four one. Let's talk with Scott in Edmonds, Washington.

Why Perseverance of the Saints Matters

Oh Scott. Well James, how are you, sir? I'm doing splendidly. How are you doing? I'm doing all right. All right.

I had a question for no Armenian line. He seemed to not really want to discuss the text anymore and he kind of turned to So what? You know, what does it matter if I believe in perseverance or not? It's not essential to my salvation that I believe it.

And and I Question you know, what would your response to that be? Well if someone were to ask me why is that so important?

I would say well really it's important because it speaks the very foundation of how we view salvation itself. In other words Fundamentally you will you will determine your belief on the eternality of salvation the security of salvation the the continuance of Salvation based upon whether you view salvation as something that is anthropocentric or theocentric.

It's either centered upon man and man's fulfillment of requirements man's efforts man's cooperation or it is something that is solely to the glory of God and None to the glory of man whatsoever. And so really The whole issue is very pastoral.

When you deal with individuals, for example, who are Acceptably introspective they refuse to for various and sundry reasons really embrace the promises of Christ and Trust in the in the in the finished nature of his work that can have tremendous Pastoral ramifications.

It really speaks to the nature of faith and to their understanding of the gospel as well. And so if someone were to ask me, well, what does it really matter? It doesn't it's not going to impact my salvation.

In many ways it does because in essence It's it's speaking to whether you believe that salvation is the result of a cooperative effort between you and Christ that Christ really has no Final and fundamental control over and hence cannot finally be the one glorified for its completion or whether you believe John 639 the fact that Jesus will always do the will of the Father.

He will always please the Father you always be successful.

In.

In what he does and so it really goes back to answering that question whether you believe salvation is all of God or it's partly of God and partly of man and. That's that's how I would at least approach it so as to get to the fundamental issues the foundational issues right off the bat.

Okay. Yeah, I think I think you're right. I think fundamentally I need to start with our fundamental disagreement. And that's what he doesn't understand. It's important because he doesn't understand the fundamental assertion.

Well, it's ironic that it's that you would call that question because the fact that I've been recently getting some emails from a fellow I'm not really exactly certain how he ended up with my email address, but Dan corner.

Ever heard of Dan corner.

Sounds familiar. He's yeah, okay. Yeah, I have a few on the internet.

Yeah, that's it is you on the internet right and he's got this big huge humongous book against what he calls Osas once saved always saved he's he's a fellow who Has put out some real audio stuff about me stuff like that we did a in fact there's there's a article on our website, and there's a link to The dividing line I did in 2001 where I exposed him and and how he had edited stuff and things like that, but anyway This fellow's been I guess Dan corner knows him or something's been calling him the phone and trying to convince him he's not truly saved and Telling him that he sins even once after accepting Christ that demonstrates He's never truly been saved he's going to hell and all the rest is wonderful fun stuff and and it it it really.

It speaks to the to the reality of the fact that from from Dan corners perspective and people like him I don't know why anyone would call what they proclaim good news. It's it's not good news. It's it's bad news it is it is as much a system of slavery as any work salvation system could ever be and It really does go back to you know he is saying it will debate me on on the topic of my book.

And I would say well, I'll be glad to debate you. But we're going to start with the foundations. We're going to start with the sovereignty of God the deadness of man and sin man's inabilities the sufficiency of the work of Christ.

We will Debate the whole issue and he tried at one point when I was on a radio program Back in st. Louis in fact the same radio program. I'm going to be on next the week from a Week from this coming Monday to debate David Bernard on on humanitarian issues.

He tried to fax in a fax and get me to sign something that would say I think we lost our car. Bye Scott. I was still talking to Scott. That's okay he tried to get me to sign a Contract that during the program.

I would not wander off into the other points of Calvinism in other words I can't defend what I actually believe. I can only defend what he wishes. That I believed and I said I'm not going to do that I'm going to I don't I don't believe in one saved all was saved.

I believe in the Reformed Doctrine of the perseverance of the Saints. The reason I believe that salvation is eternal is because it is perfect. Because of what Christ has done and by the way if you haven't listened to that If you go to a omin org, I believe it's slash o s a s in capitals that HTML I think.

If you'll go to that right at the top, there's an update and there's a link to the dividing line Archive at straightgate .com and if you'll listen to it, that was one of the more interesting programs I actually that's a that's a program that rich did.

I wasn't there and I had recorded a response to Dan corner and I played the tape of the KJ SL program. I was on and it's Fascinating. I think it's one of the more interesting calls I've ever gotten was when this woman called in who has a program on KJ SL at midnight.

I mean folks if you have a talk program at midnight let's just say you you you're never going to be Rush Limbaugh, okay, and This lady calls in and she's just ripping and shredding on me and and her entire system just collapsed.

Everything.

That was completely Unintentional. I turned my sounds off but that is the sound I have that announces the arrival of Every certain person that many people in the channel know thinker is now online. Isn't that great anyway?

That's funny. You should listen just that but just the phone calls worth it and then listening to their radio program later that evening. When they were inviting me to come on at midnight, you know, I'm completely asleep at that point in time.

It was it was something that was interesting. Anyhow Should we go let's go ahead and take a Jonathan and then we'll if we need to hold them over the break we can do. So eight seven seven seven five three three three four one is the phone number.

Why don't you join us? In fact, I'm gonna put my computer on mute that way it won't do anything. We lost Jonathan. Well, Jonathan was. Everybody in the channel is now hearing the The sound that was played when Lynn thinker joined Jonathan give us a call back at eight seven seven seven five three three three four one because you had a question on a topic that truly Gets people gets people thinking and gets people talking on the subject of cessationism.

We always get a phone call every once in a while on that and anyone else who would like to join us on the program this afternoon. Obviously one of the big things while we're waiting for Jonathan to call back in.

If he can I mean obviously if he was driving down the road on a cell phone or something and You know left the cell site or that doesn't happen a whole lot. That's because Wrong spelling www .aomin .org slash o s a s that HTML I even said all capitals and let's say all capitals Is on what in on in on.

I don't understand that.

Is oh.

Well, why don't we take our break first and then we'll then we'll then we'll take that call. That sounds like a good idea doesn't all right. We're gonna take our our first break our only break in fact and be right back with your phone calls right after this.

Answering those who claim that only the King James Version is the Word of God James White in his book the King James only controversy examines allegations that modern translators Conspired to corrupt scripture and lead believers away from true Christian faith.

In a readable and responsible style author James White traces the development of Bible translations old and new and Investigates the differences between new versions and the authorized version of 1611.

You can order your copy of James White's book the King James only controversy by going to our website at www .aomin .org.

What is dr. Norman Geisler warning the Christian community about in his book chosen, but free. A new cult. Secularism. False prophecy scenarios. No, dr. Geisler is sounding the alarm about a system of beliefs commonly called Calvinism.

He insists that this belief system is theologically inconsistent. Philosophically insufficient and morally repugnant. In his book the potter's freedom James White replies to dr. Geisler, but the potter's freedom is much more than just a reply.

It is a defense of the very principles upon which the Protestant Reformation was founded. Indeed it is a defense of the very gospel itself in a style that both scholars and laymen alike can appreciate.

James White masterfully counters the evidence against so-called Extreme Calvinism. Defines what the reformed faith actually is and concludes that the gospel preached by the reformers is the very one taught in the pages of Scripture.

The potter's freedom a defense of the Reformation and a rebuttal to Norman Geisler's chosen. But free you'll find it in the reformed theology section of our bookstore at a omen. Or this portion of the dividing line has been made possible by the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.

The Apostle Paul spoke of the importance of solemnly testifying of the gospel of the grace of God. The proclamation of God's truth is the most important element of his worship in his church. The elders and people of the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church invite you to worship with them this coming Lord's Day.

The morning Bible study begins at 9 30 a .m. And the worship service is at 10 45. Evening services are at 6 30 p .m. On Sunday and the Wednesday night prayer meeting is at 7. The Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church is located at 3805 North 12th Street in Phoenix.

You can call for further information at 602 to 6 grace. If you're unable to attend you can still participate with your computer and real audio at prbc .org. Where the ministry extends around the world through the archives of sermons and Bible study lessons available 24 hours a day.

Millions of petitioners from around the world are employing Pope John Paul II to recognize the Virgin Mary as co-redeemer with Christ. Elevating the topic of Roman Catholic views of Mary to national headlines and widespread discussion in his book Mary another Redeemer James White sidesteps hostile rhetoric and sites directly from Roman Catholic sources to explore this volatile topic.

He traces how Mary of the Bible esteemed mother of the Lord obedient servant and chosen vessel of God Has become the immaculately conceived bodily assumed Queen of Heaven. Viewed as co-mediator with Christ and now recognized as co-redeemer by many in the Roman Catholic Church Mary another Redeemer is fresh insight into the woman The Bible calls blessed among women and an invitation to single-minded devotion to God's truth.

You can order your copy of James White's book. Mary another Redeemer at a omen org.

And.

We are talking with various and sundry folks. I'm Not sure if this is a conspiracy or what but we have a John and a Jonathan online at the same time and So Jonathan is back but John Called in while Jonathan wasn't there.

So I'm not sure who we're supposed to take first, but let's let's go ahead and and Do we have. Do you have any personal preferences? Which one sounds more desperate? Let's Jonathan.

I.

Jonathan sounds more desperate. So we'll talk to Jonathan first. Hi Jonathan. Hi there. How are you?

Yes, I'm a rather desperate person. I've got to admit that. Oh, and it sounds like you've got a bit of an accent, too.

Yes, I do. Oh, wait. What kind of an accent is it?

I'm from the northeast of England, but I'm currently living in Florida. Believe it or not.

This is wonderful because you know, John who's going to be on after you is a naturalized citizen from from England. Really? So he's gonna sound a little bit like you except he's starting to sound a little bit like a young.

Young.

I love you know, I watched the people in the in the in the channel start yelling.

Oh.

Okay, anyway.

So but I do like doing the accent stuff. So you had a question. Yes, I do. I have a question in regards to Charismatic ism. Yeah, I don't know. I mean the charismatic movement. Yeah, you sound more educated.

Okay. Oh, well, but you're already British. So you sound very educated just by talking the way you do. Oh, very good. Okay.

Well, you know, it's interesting when people ask about cessation ism and for those few people who who live under a rock someplace we're talking about the the the the I. Generally when people hear that term they limit it to the discussion of the issue of tongues and In reality, you can't do that because The the issue really has to do With the ministry of the Holy Spirit now.

Initially.

For certainly all of my Seminary training and of course seminary wasn't the seminar I went to didn't really address this issue very much. Anyway, I understood cessation ism in the context of the ceasing of miraculous sign gifts now, that would be things like raising the dead the the kinds of extraordinary miraculous Activities associated with the Apostles Prior to the writing of the New Testament and so tongues was associated with that, but there were other elements in the sense of of a prophetic ministry of looking into the future or or Special healings and things like that.

I understood cessation ism in that terminology. I have since learned that there are people who would not consider me a cessationist because I do believe That especially for example the concept of speaking in tongues as I understand first Corinthians 14 has a particular Purpose as enunciated by the Apostle Paul and that that purpose no longer exists and the Holy Spirit being a spirit of order and truth.

That a gift that was that had a particular purpose at a particular time. When that is fulfilled that I do not believe that gift will continue. But I've discovered that there are people who who would view me as almost a charismatic and the reason yes.

The reason they would do so Is is not because I speak in tongues like this is an accent.

But.

There are actually some individuals Not just individuals, but I guess people who take an entire perspective that there are no miraculous gifts of the Spirit at all in the sense of for example, I firmly believe that God gifts certain men with Discernment with the ability to handle the scriptures to explain the scriptures.

I believe that he gifts elders To be able to communicate God's truth to the people. I believe that the Spirit is involved in in that way. And there are people who reject that. They they reject that the Holy.

I'm not sure what the Holy Spirit's doing from that that perspective at all. I don't know, but they there are. There are those who who take an extremely strict cessationist viewpoint and hence would view me as as not Doing not holding a cessationist viewpoint, but for most folks cessationism is primarily limited to discussion of Miraculous sign gifts and I I would hold to that because I believe there is a purpose that was fulfilled.

Obviously if you believe that for example like Gordon C does that Romans chapter 8 26 and 27 is referring to a ministry of the Holy Spirit Interceding and connecting this with the concept of tongues and so on so forth.

You would you would disagree. But I would hold that viewpoint, but I don't hold the extreme viewpoint because I believe that the Holy Spirit does give men gifts to to minister within the church.

You know, I've been to something which is I you know that obviously happens.

All the time within certain denominations and certain perspectives and and Obviously as I look at the scriptures that was not what the gift of tongues was about at the time when it was being practiced in the early church and hence if you have to in essence train someone or In essence put them into a state of mind where they no longer have control over their tongue.

That's that's not the ministry of the Holy Spirit the Holy Spirit that gives us Discipline and gives us a sound mind and I'll be perfectly honest with you when I watch out here in Phoenix, Arizona. It's the channel between 20 and 22.