John 3:13, Turretin, Pop Thomists

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October 18, 2022

Did about 90 minutes today on a variety of topics but with a bit of a connected theme, digging into the text of John 3:13 as well as looking at Turretin's discussion of the two natures of Christ. Finished up looking at the amazing behavior of folks on line in response to a new theological journal.

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00:54: Well, Rich kept saying I don't know if I remember how to do this and now that it's six minutes after That was proof that maybe he doesn't
01:05: Been a long time been a while that we've since we've been in the big studio I actually had someone believe it or not.
01:13: It's been an interesting day in social media. There's there's a guy who decided to Take a take a shot at how much traveling
01:23: I did. I shouldn't be an elder in church I'm traveling so much He seems to not be aware of the fact that I'm I am the only
01:31: Elder at my church that is not full -time with the church We have three elders that are full -time with the church and I've always been full -time with Alpha Omega Ministries That did not stop when
01:41: I became an elder there And part of my job is to travel and in fact in 2019
01:47: I traveled a hundred and sixty -five thousand miles around the world at that particular point in time
01:53: Now it's around the nation. It's not quite as fast Though I did just have a dear friend and his wife who are more than ten years older than I am
02:06: Trying to fly Yesterday and they ended up sleeping six hours on the floor behind a rental car counter
02:15: At an airport someplace, so yeah lots of Lots of fun there.
02:21: I'm not looking forward to anything like that I'll I'll put up with the the rainstorms and having to get my electricity hooked up in a lake at a
02:30: KOA Rather than rather than doing that. But anyway Here we are and we're in the big studio because we've got a lot to talk about today
02:39: And a lot of things to cover. I did just want to Mention real real briefly.
02:45: I I I Said I announced Sunday night Just what a glorious day
02:52: Glorious evening we had at church. I've been looking forward to this for a long long time.
02:57: In fact little Janie my granddaughter Had been looking forward to this for even longer We had put this off So that both mom and ransom my daughter summer and my grandson ransom who was born early
03:11: September Would be able to be there for her her baptism And so one of the reasons that I put in such long hours driving back last week after picking up our new tow vehicle
03:25: Was so I could be here not only to preach on Romans 11 Preach on Romans 11 as it is used in the baptism debate that There no one could ever preach
03:39: Romans 11 in a single sermon and do any justice to almost anything It is I think one of the most challenging chapters in the
03:48: New Testament simply because of all the background issues that have to be brought in to really interpret the
03:54: Olive tree and the branches and the horticultural stuff and all the covenantal stuff and everything else anyway
03:59: I Preached on and it may be the last of the baptism series.
04:04: We may do one more To sort of wrap things up if if we feel the need to do so, but had that going on had a really good group there
04:14: Janie was one of 15 Baptisms I did and I will confess
04:19: I'm hurting 48 hours later. I'm in pain and But my fellow pastors will understand why we don't put as much water in our baptistry as many other people do because we have apology has lots of young kids who are making professions of faith and we encourage them in that way and So there was one fellow that I literally held until time for the baptism
04:52: Just so people could see him. I Remember very clearly when I was baptized.
04:57: I remember that night. I remember people saying well the only thing we can see of you Where's your head not top of your head at the very top of my head?
05:04: That's all I can see and I I get that but what that means is when you baptize the adults you don't have as much water in that tank and That means you've got to get them way farther down Before the water starts helping to bear their weight
05:23: Let's just say that When I get up in the morning right now, I'm looking a little bit older than my ears
05:32: Anyways, it was a it was a glorious evening it was Mike Hendrickson's kids played in the service the first time is musically wise and they're the one they're the two kids that have done all those skillet covers and Skillet knows who they are.
05:51: They got to meet him last year. It was just a wonderful wonderful evening I'm very thankful for those who prayed that I would get back to be able to do
05:58: That service and I just want to say publicly that to the one guy
06:04: Who commented on my tweet? that this was Bragging on my part.
06:11: I forgive you. I Really you need forgiveness and I I forgive you and and I hope you will find your way someday anyway
06:21: With all that said it's been an incredible day on social media we'll get to that toward the end of the program because there's so many things to be talking about first and The first thing we're gonna be doing do
06:34: Rich do you remember how to to do the big board thing? This is this is a big board thing.
06:40: And do you know how it is hooked up? And oh, very good. Very nice. Very nice big wood.
06:46: Okay. I just want to make sure that's the whole reason we're in here is so that we can We'll just leave it there
06:54: Okay, well Now I do actually, you know what? First of all that camera is what's what's all the space over here.
07:02: I mean, there's nobody over here Yeah, but there's there's not supposed to be that much space behind me
07:12: Now here's now here's here's the real tricky thing oh That will work look at that Now is that when you when you switch to it?
07:25: Go ahead and switch to the thing. I want to make sure this is there Isn't that glorious Isn't that wonderful?
07:35: We will actually be able to see things now. That is very very good I I don't know what made me think about this today, but I have this, you know
07:43: I think it's called zoom loop or something. I don't know That I thought you know, we're gonna be looking at some textual stuff
07:51: So, let's let's see if we can get it big enough for the people my age can see So that's we're gonna do
07:57: John chapter 3 verse 13 if you want to If you want to go there what
08:02: I would like to do is Address an issue and I think you'll find it interesting and hopefully it'll be edifying and helpful to folks
08:16: Over the past past week or so there have been comments that have come up in regards to the
08:30: Well, evidently I guess next month there's going to be some Christology conference someplace
08:40: And There have been comments in regards to the nature of the incarnation which of course is
08:49: Important we have discussions about all the time when we are bringing the gospel outside of the
08:55: Christian faith to people outside But this is more in the context of inside and the current controversies and things that are going on and you know, all the silly accusations of canonic theology and Sicilianism and all that kind of silly stuff.
09:14: But anyway Some conversation has been had and it's a lot of people do think about this
09:21: What do you do? What do you do with the concept of? omnipresence in Speaking of the
09:32: Sun in his divinity and the Sun in in his humanity and It really it has to do with with all of the attributes of the glory of Christ and We're gonna be looking at after this.
09:53: We're gonna look at a quotation from Francis Turreton that I think is really relevant to these things
09:59: But a lot of people aren't aware of the debate and the background of the debate concerning one particular text and This is one of the situations where if you have the
10:11: King James and New King James and you have one reading and If you have the ESV NASB NIV LSB etc, etc
10:21: You'll have another reading and that can lead to Confusion and Uncertainty and things like that and so we we want to try to help with things like that and that is
10:35: John chapter 3 verse 13, so let's look at the at the text here and I suppose
10:46: Let's see, how do I do that again? Well, there's multiple buttons down here
10:54: And I'm just trying to find the only way to get this thing to reappear at a certain point
11:14: So in John 3 13 No one has come down From heaven
11:27: Except no one has gone up into heaven except the Son of Man who has come down.
11:33: So this is all right part of Part of what you're gonna see here.
11:38: I should have gone over to Hold on a second before we look at that. Let's don't do that Let's look at okay.
11:47: So The NASB Has no one ascended into heaven, but he who descended from heaven the
11:56: Son of Man and then if we Grab texts and There it is
12:13: No one hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven even the Son of Man which is in heaven
12:19: So the so in so the there's some confusion and some of the variants as to where to attach the variant whether it's what it's referring to whether it's the ascended part and the descended part, so the
12:35: King James Version has even the Son of Man which is in heaven So and no man has sent up to heaven
12:42: But he that came down from heaven even the Son of Man which is in heaven The NASB has no one has ascended in heaven but he who descended from heaven the
12:50: Son of Man so the the which is in heaven is not in the
12:57: Modern translations because it is not in the text that is being translated so you can see here
13:04: You can see this little symbol which corresponds to this symbol here
13:11: Which means there are words added at this point in? The text so the
13:16: Son of Man and then the first reading that is given and this is the
13:21: Nestle Island we will look down here at the bottom at the UBS 5th in a moment, but ha own and to order no so the
13:30: Son of Man the one being in heaven is The other reading and then the text which is which deletes
13:41: Does not have that phraseology These are the manuscripts that contain that so What you have in the longer reading is the
13:53: Son of Man who is in heaven now that's
13:58: How would you understand that? Because it it's saying no one has gone up into heaven except the one who came down from heaven
14:08: The Son of Man who is in heaven So you have you have the you know
14:15: There's one who's who's come down from heaven But then this longer reading says, but he's in heaven
14:23: So not overly surprisingly then you will note down here in the
14:31: UBS 5th which gives a wider number a wider
14:38: You're Given more information When the UBS 5th gives a variant it gives much more information than that And that's the only does and that's the only gives many more variants the
14:48: UBS Focuses upon variants that would specifically influence the translation.
14:54: So they are doing You know there I their focus is upon people doing
14:59: Bible translation work So they have they give
15:05: On Thropu The reading up here and then you have the same
15:11: Witnesses though many many more listed out for you here and so You would have p66 p75
15:20: Sinaiticus Vaticanus And so those those are your two earliest papyri manuscripts of the
15:26: Gospel of John Your two earliest unsealed manuscripts of the Gospel of John All and the way that the
15:33: Nessie Allen has it and continues on with and just as Moses lifted up the serpent But then you have many others
15:41: BLT Washingtonianus in supplemental form there other unseals many skills
15:53: Sahitic Coptic part of the Boheric Some of the Georgian the Diatestron origin and then something that if see this is the the text that a lot of people get when they are in taking first -year
16:07: Greek But very often the
16:14: Textual footnotes are not explained in first -year Greek That's normally a second -year Greek subject and so a lot of people will have all this stuff down here
16:21: But they've never been instructed as to what it means Which can be confusing because for example, look at here you have origin
16:30: LAT 2 slash 4 2 slash 4 origin.
16:36: Yes Latin version of origin 2 of 4 times which means
16:45: It's not this way 2 of 4 times You'll see that with a lot
16:52: Epiphanius down here is 3 slash 4 so 3 out of 4 times 75 % of time if an
16:59: IS has it one way that means once he has it another way and sometimes that you'll find which you can find the other way he has it and that is right here there is
17:11: Epiphanius 1 out of 4 and He now is giving this other reading
17:18: Now the other reading which we have more clearly presented to us here in the Nessie Olin This reading son of man who is in heaven you'll notice there are a number of variants in it.
17:34: So in other words Codex Alexandrinus Seemingly omitted own initially and then that was
17:46: Fixed by a corrector You've got some of the main Byzantine unseals family 1 family 13
17:54: Lots of minuscule texts many many many the BYZ symbol symbol meaning the
18:00: Byzantine symbol right there Lectionaries even though some of them still have a one one out of two
18:08: So there's some changes some of them have son of God for son of man You have
18:16: Latin numerous of the Latin manuscripts the Vulgate Curatorial Syriac Some have who was in heaven
18:28: Not who is in heaven So maybe scribes struggling with that variant there and that does make sense that there would be we saw up above that You know part of the
18:43: Boheric Coptic Reads one way and part the other way Cyril 14 out of 16 times
18:51: One out of 16 times he has they use so you you see the complication that comes when you have
18:58: The early church fathers thrown in here Ethiopic Georgian Slavian Hippolytus We saw origin
19:05: Latin two out of four times Goes on down you can see a large number of Here's the other one out of 16 for Cyril Got we have got all 16.
19:16: You can figure out what all 16 references in Cyril were that's pretty cool out of a single footnote Theodoret three out of four
19:22: John Damascus Etc etc. And so it is widely testified amongst the fathers both ways
19:31: Both ways having the longer ending and not having the longer ending Augustine knows of it in in this particular form and Then you have son of man the one who is from heaven not who was in heaven the son of man who
19:51: What who is from heaven not is in heaven right now but is from heaven and then you have that in 0 1 4 1 certain a number of lectionaries and At least one form of the
20:05: Syriac text so all that sounds Wonderful, doesn't it?
20:11: I mean that wasn't an exciting thing to go through. No, sorry about that Especially if you're listening to this on the road,
20:16: I put some of our dividing line truckers to sleep on that one but the whole reason for doing this is it is a
20:27: Complicated Variant there is no question that it's a complicated variant and Fundamentally, the variant is between though.
20:35: There are sub variants fundamentally. The variant is between saying The one who no one has gone up into heaven except the one who came down from heaven that is the
20:46: Son of Man or The Son of Man who is in heaven now
20:54: One last thing on the textual stuff before we talk about some of the possible theological ramifications
21:04: I'm gonna be really interested and it should be coming soon In fact, I was gonna check on it because I haven't checked for a few weeks.
21:11: I would expect Given the feeds that I follow That I would have seen the announcement of the
21:19: Gospel of John coming out in the CBGM but I really hope it comes out pretty soon because that the most
21:29: Certainly in my opinion the most interesting variants until they get to Romans will be in the
21:34: Gospel of John and I'm just gonna take a wild guess.
21:41: I mean, there's no way without access to a very wide or a wide amount of information you can't really know what the coherence decisions are going to be the the textual flow decisions are going to be just and Anything until you have that information is just a an educated guess at best but I'm just willing to go out on a limb and Say I've got this this strange feeling that CBGM Might just say that the longer ending has higher coherence
22:24: I Don't know it's a lot of data to be to be crunching and Something else keep in mind is
22:29: CBGM is not looking at the vast majority of stuff's down here all these early church fathers CBGM doesn't Look at that not yet.
22:34: Anyways There may be I don't I don't exactly sure how you would even
22:41: Make that work to be honest with you but just looking manuscript wise
22:48: I'm just wondering if Which direction the
22:53: CBGM will go and I'm sort of wondering hmm, I wonder if it's gonna Say that there's a higher likelihood.
23:00: There's a higher coherence among the witnesses that say who is in heaven But how would we understand that?
23:08: How would we understand Let's let's say for the sake of argumentation that we
23:20: Take the reading the Son of Man who is in heaven What does that mean at least one commentator has pointed out that you could look at that in the context of John the standpoint of John at the time of John's writing hence the
23:45: Son of Man Who now as resurrected Lord is in heaven
23:53: That's that's a possibility the the majority of the discussion down through the ages has been if you take it as No one has ascended into heaven
24:12: Except the son except the one who came down from heaven. That is the Son of Man who is in heaven.
24:17: Is this a statement relevant to the continued omnipresence of The second person of the
24:29: Trinity even in the point of incarnation Because I really can't think of many other texts that would have a really direct reference to even asking the question and I would think that most of us would recognize that This could be one of those places
25:03: Where the real argument is joined That's going to determine how we end up viewing certain things and and that is
25:15: Do we follow Calvin and say where God has made end of speaking so should we or?
25:23: Do we follow Edwards? At least in his discussion of Adam and the and his will and Go well beyond where God has made an end of speaking.
25:35: That is that is the question and That also raises for many of us the question of How far are we willing to go?
25:52: To satisfy the curiosity of man. Is there any limitation? Is there any limitation to What questions?
26:05: We should even be willing to seek to offer an answer to in our modern day
26:14: Where there is no concept whatsoever of boundaries of propriety and Certainly no concept of Kingly honor
26:32: Creaturely humility Man believes that the universe is his oyster and He can do with it as he wishes and he can probe its secrets
26:47: Without any limitation. Could I suggest that outside of Christian theology?
26:55: There's just a really clear illustration I think many areas really Where a
27:01: Christian view of creation and a Christian view of science Would give us barriers as to what we would and would not do as Christians in dealing with God's creation
27:16: I'm not saying that Christians have always been consistent in this. I'm simply saying you could make a very strong case
27:23: That Messing with DNA That Seeking to engage in eugenics
27:33: These will be places where modern man demonstrates a fundamental lack of boundaries because there is no view of man as being created in the image of God and Hence there is no glory of God To be concerned about there is no purpose of God to be concerned about and it can even happen within the context of The Theological development of the church over time.
28:12: I think most of us are aware and if not, let me just mention to you the early enemies of the
28:18: Christian faith called the Gnostics Did not have any barriers as to what they would probe into and so the
28:29: Wild heretical damaging Gnostic Gospels and The stories they told some of which are found in the
28:38: Quran Some of which are foundational to Roman Catholic theology this day on Mary those
28:46: Gnostic Gospels Would speculate on the early life of Jesus Now the scriptures tell us almost nothing about their life of Jesus We are given one brief glimpse of Jesus in the temple not with Mary, but you know, which story
29:08: I'm talking about Speaking with the elders that's all we're told and The Gnostics were not satisfied with that that was not enough and so They speculated and the
29:25: Jesus that they came up with by the way was a
29:32: Absolute misgrant a Divinely powerful Unbridled Uncontrolled misgrant and That's not who
29:46: Jesus was But the point is there was this human desire to answer questions
29:55: That Simply Simply put we have to go
30:02: God has chosen not to give us that information and is there a willingness on the part of Christians and Christian theologians and Christian philosophers and and Historians everything else to to stop and to say
30:18: There are questions that are not to be Considered important for life and godliness because the
30:27: Holy Spirit has not has not engaged these things has not addressed these issues And what's more if there has been speculation in the past by Theologians and leaders
30:46: Who ended up having a major impact upon those who came after them
30:52: Does that does that mean that since they were willing to speculate that their speculation should be given a level of?
31:01: Religious and theological authority and on what basis and As in all things by what standard are these things to be tested?
31:17: Once you have gone outside the realm of what Scripture actually reveals You no longer have recourse
31:26: To Scripture as the corrective and so you can't ask by what standard your standards going to have to change
31:36: Once you get to that point and a lot of people just don't seem to realize
31:43: How many times in church history a belief has risen
31:50: That has been rejected by us in the modern period For all our respect for Augustine, Augustine said things that were foundational to the development of the
32:03: Doctrine of Purgatory Now he did not have a Doctrine of Purgatory, but he did have a he did make statements about a a post death cleansing
32:13: That are unbiblical and And Anyone who reads anybody on Augustine knows that Augustine was influenced by a
32:30: Number of platonic categories in the development of his theology, which is why you can make the argument that to maintain post -nicene orthodoxy specifically as It becomes formulated in Augustine requires
32:51: Platonic categories because he himself was influenced by that So by what standard do you then judge even someone like Augustine or do you even judge
33:01: Augustine? These are questions that certainly
33:06: I've had to deal with for many years in dealing with Roman Catholicism Because the Magisterium becomes your standard there the
33:13: Magisterium of the Roman Catholic Church Becomes the standard by which those judgments are made though they are loath to make them themselves.
33:21: I've always found that interesting they could have given us a Entire listing of the
33:30: Inspired oral traditions by now, but just never had time to get around to it and all those years but anyway
33:43: For those outside of Rome, well, you can go to Eastern Orthodoxy many of them would point to the practices and liturgy of the church as a means of Providing that kind of interpretation though.
33:58: I think they really struggle for some consistency there But for those of us who are Reformed Baptists There shouldn't be any question here
34:07: This should not be a difficult issue to address but It's becoming difficult because of the fundamental shifting of the grounds of Ultimate authority and interpretation that is taking place in in our midst and causing the divisions that we are seeing today so those are really important issues to address so Here's here's a text and there are there are certain guys.
34:37: I happen to notice that One of the two guys that did the Wild and crazy debate in Houston a few years ago with Leighton Flowers and Pritchett Hernandez and Zacariades Zacariades is real.
34:57: This is a one of his big things is John 313 and All those issues related there too and Up until recently most of us could just go
35:13: Interesting speculation But you know, no one was holding a theological knife to our throat
35:20: Well, he would He holds a theological knife to everybody's throats. Well, he's pretty much on his own
35:28: But for the rest of us like well, we can we can sit around we can talk about it
35:33: We can think about it, you know when you're preaching through John chapter 3 You might want to come up with a consensus understanding amongst the elders of your church as to how you're going to handle this and I think especially a text like this does illustrate the importance of Looking at these variants and dealing with them when you're preaching through a text because Whether you whether you like it or not and whether you lament it or not that the fact is you're gonna have people sitting in front of you they're gonna have a wide variety of translations and People are gonna notice, you know
36:12: If you spend five minutes talking about who is in heaven and their Bible doesn't have who is in heaven
36:18: They're going to be really confused and if it hasn't is in heaven and you don't even mention it they're gonna be really confused too and You can lament that and say it would all be much better if we just use the
36:30: King James Version but the fact the matter is Erasmus probably didn't even know
36:38: That this variant existed. I mean, I don't know. I haven't read his annotations at this point. I'd like to look him up It would be interesting
36:46: But he probably didn't even know I doubt I don't believe that any of the manuscripts he had access to would have had that reading so The fact is if you just simply went with the
36:59: King James Then you wouldn't even know what the most primitive reading of John 3 won Because it is the most primitive reading
37:06: I mean when you have p66 p75 set Sinaiticus and Vaticanus together, that's very very very early
37:13: That's very very very early No matter how you about how you how you push it and I'm looking here real quickly
37:22: Well, this is interesting I'm looking down Now I just ran over it quickly and my eyesight's not the way that it once was
37:32: But what's interesting to me is I do not see the
37:38: DDD Sure, I'm glad we fixed the resolution on this so I can see this now Well, I fixed the resolution, but you know
37:46: I don't see Irenaeus Hmm I Wonder that that raises the question
37:56: Did Irenaeus not cite John 3 13 in any of his writings interesting
38:06: Factoid to want to look up. I was just trying to look at what might what some of the earliest sources would be
38:16: Outside of well see Alexandrinus is Corrected and has variants in it. It almost looks like the earliest
38:25: Greek manuscript might be Delta As far as just scanning through the things here, so We want to know it is absolutely relevant
38:39: To know how the church has read this text down through the ages and the Diatestron, Origen, Eusebius Adamantius, Gregory Nazianzus, Apollinaris, Gregory Nyssa, Didymus, Epiphanius, Cyril most of the times
38:55: And that's interesting to me, by the way That's interesting to me that Cyril 14 out of 16 times reads in that in that particular fashion because that That's Cyril of Alexandria.
39:08: That's the Alexandrian group versus the Folks from Antioch and their different emphases and that all comes out in the
39:15: Council of Chalcedon that we've talked about before and we'll talk about again more in the future and And even even who's citing what in The footnotes of the textual data can have interesting ramifications as far as things like that are concerned but it is it is vitally important to know what the earliest reading was and I would say you would if you're doing a serious study of John chapter 3 you need to have that information.
39:46: We have it today. You would not have had it You would not have had it easily Any earlier than 60 -70 years ago, but you have it now and That's actually a blessing.
40:02: I know a lot of folks like no No, it's actually a blessing To know what the earliest reading at this text was.
40:11: I think that's exceptionally important and So there you go, so there's um
40:21: There's John chapter 3 and the point quick application is We used to be able to talk about these things and Do so Without fearing that whichever side we came down on on a on a textual variant or on speculative theology that goes beyond What the
40:46: Apostles evidently? Thought we needed to know with clarity That you wouldn't have your head handed to you on a platter
40:55: Depending on how you came down it. It is not a good thing
41:02: That that's not the case right now, especially amongst certain elements of the reformed reformed world
41:11: Really shouldn't be that way sadly, so let me drop that down and We will
41:22: Take all the little markings off No, we don't want to save that and Move on to our next subject for the day
41:36: Have a nice little background there Oh, I do want to I'm sorry there was
41:42: I did say that we would have another Okay, which one is it?
41:49: Oh, we have many of them open right now And of course it won't be it'll be the last one that I that I choose
41:57: This is a
42:04: Citation I wanted to mention to you from Francis Turretin who of course is lauded as and and was just Francis Turretin defines
42:18: Reformed scholastic orthodoxy and That doesn't mean that he was infallible or anything of the kind he was a brilliant theologian
42:30: I Obviously I used him as an example when he for example says that The Kamiohanian in 1st
42:37: John 5 7 was in the majority of the Greek manuscripts. He was wrong But how could he have known differently
42:46: Until the modern period how would anyone have known differently? There weren't any card catalogs there there was no interlibrary loan
42:55: There wasn't any way to know one way or the other and so he had some flawed information and hence some flawed conclusions and big deal, that's
43:07: That's the same with everybody that we we read in history as long as we don't elevate elevate them to the position of having final authority and so it
43:20: You know when I first ran into Molin is in the middle knowledge one of the first people I read was
43:25: Turretin and I was Very blessed by it, but I also remember. I mean this is so long ago. This is back in This was back in our old apartment
43:34: Rich remembers our old apartment because I have this clear I Have this clear memory of you coming up the stairs there and I don't remember whether it was
43:46: Josh or summer was it Josh That said oh Okay, all right, and and what did what did
43:54: Josh call you? You're you're remembering it to see you you'd have a different perspective in my in your mind
44:05: But I'm I'm I think he was running toward you if I recall and he goes oh
44:11: Is he in my arms? Oh, oh and And and Josh goes look.
44:21: It's it's rich the tingle which meant single Cuz there was a period of time that I'm not gonna go into right now when when it did look like rich was
44:36: Was going to could have joined a cenobitic monastery And would have done just just fine there, but the
44:43: Lord was was gracious Okay, we could talk about how many women rich drove away by starting off with Romans nine
44:50: But we won't get into that right now. That's for that's for a dividing line you know 10 15 years from now when rich and I will be sitting back rocking back and forth and Somebody else will be taking care of all of the the technical stuff and we'll just be sitting there reminiscing about About everything and hopefully we'll still remember stuff like that What did that have to do?
45:12: With with with with Turretin. Oh, yes, because it was in that it was in that it was in that apartment.
45:21: I Remember sitting there with Turretin reading
45:30: You're older than I am buddy and very careful about that. Oh oh
45:36: I'm hoping my microphones picking all this up. So, you know, what's coming the other direction because He says you can't tell by looking and I will admit that's that's true.
45:46: I think most people would look at us They they'd figure I'm older than you. Yeah One of us has been taking all the all the shots all the damage and okay anyway, um,
45:59: I Remember reading Turretin and I had to read him two or three times. I'd have to read paragraphs more than once He's not easy reading
46:10: But I had run into the concept of middle knowledge I think in seminary and I Was very blessed and I still think today that Turretin's criticism of the grounding objection
46:25: Has not been answered by Molinus since obviously I brought it up when talking to William Lane Craig With all that said
46:36: Turretin is a fascinating resource. And so I saw a quote and I looked it up and Came across this section from Turretin and talking about the two natures of Christ and if if I Am to be
46:57: Put out to pastor if I am to be canceled if I am to no longer be considered a
47:05: Reliable source of information. I just want to point out to everybody who's making these claims to you professors at certain seminaries
47:13: Who are saying this to your students saying that I hold to a canonic Christology or I'm a
47:19: Sassanian or Things like that That if I had read these words from Turretin In the year 2010 in any one of your churches every single one of you not only would agree
47:35: But you would have understood what I was saying and we all would have been together and I'm not the one that's changed you are and You know it every single one of you knows it and I don't know how you
47:47: Keep that voice quiet But I pray that that voice will keep talking to you
47:54: What does Turretin say if it is asked According to what nature our humiliation and you know,
48:03: I'm gonna go ahead and pop up the let's go ahead and and Get a different color here.
48:09: I don't like let's make it something other than that.
48:14: Okay If it is asked according to what nature our humiliation and exaltation to be ascribed to Christ We answer that this is properly said of the person and is to referred to both natures hmm
48:34: But with a great difference But with a great difference to the human nature
48:42: Into so notice the very first sentence. What is he saying that we can properly speak of humiliation and exaltation of the person of Christ And I think that's vitally important my concern is that We have this we are we are demonstrating a
49:09: Absolute drive To do what the Scholastics did whether the
49:16: Reformed Scholastics, which I obviously think are far better than the Scholastics of the medieval period and That is again
49:26: To think that we have to come up with answers to every question especially when those questions
49:33: Go beyond what Scripture gives to it now what I love here is We've got
49:38: John 17 5 Philippians 2 6 John 5 17 18 Matthew 20 Ephesians 3 4 9 and 2nd
49:44: Corinthians 8 9 All within this section. I'm very thankful for that I'm very thankful that that's one of the differences.
49:51: You'll see between Protestant Scholastics and medieval Scholastics In the sense that these will actually be relevant to the subject.
50:01: We've aren't how many times over the past year or so have we gone to Aquinas for example and Found so many passages from the
50:10: Psalter being cited that had absolutely nothing to do Except in great tradition exegesis
50:17: So in origins way of viewing of things had nothing to do With the subject at hand these guys want the subject to be there so with that Here you have
50:34: The question being answered Exaltation Humiliation be ascribed to the one person to both natures, but with a great difference and He's answering a theological question, but there are places in the
50:52: New Testament Where you simply can't? answer the question in this particular text you can make overarching theological assertions, but I Suggest to you that there are places in the
51:06: New Testament where it was not the intention of the author to answer those kinds of questions and Only scholasticism says ah, but we have the answer
51:18: We can go deeper No So I go back to Turreton so there's a great difference in the description of Humiliation exaltation the person both natures to the human nature indeed as To real depression and exaltation in itself to the divine however only in respect of Concealment and of manifestation
51:53: Now I want you to see this word Conceal Because there are men watching this video right now
52:05: Who have Put themselves in a position of judging my orthodoxy because I have spoken of the veiling of Certain aspects of the glory of Christ as a part of the incarnation
52:22: We are going to see I didn't invent this language. I got this language from others and That these others are sound men and So if you're going to accuse me, you're gonna have to accuse
52:37: Turreton as well, and I could go to many many others in the process, but you have to the divine however only in respect of concealment
52:50: Does that mean the divine ceases being the divine of course not? Of course not but the incarnation has to really be the incarnation
53:00: The one seen upon the throne and Isaiah 6 Could not walk by the seashore and teach the people in parables
53:10: Something had to happen right only in respect of concealment and of manifestation relative to the flesh as a the flesh as a
53:28: VEIL Veil Exact terminology I used in my article
53:35: CRI journal years ago that you all seem to like back then I'll seem like that back then before you became so wise so educated.
53:45: Yes Relative to the flesh as a veil by which it was covered and Whence it brought itself forth
53:58: Oh Covered veil concealment. Oh No, I didn't know that Turreton was a neo -sassinian
54:08: Well, he was one of the primary fighters against sassinianism emptying
54:16: That is what is that term my friends? Kenosis emptying
54:27: Philippians 2 Emptying proper belongs to the human nature in as much as he took upon him.
54:38: Oh Oh Yes, if you go back to my article in the
54:47: CRI journal on Philippians 2 and the Carmen Christi What was my argument?
54:53: What was my argument when I debated? Saban in 1999 on This issue, how does the quote -unquote emptying take place by addition?
55:08: by addition in fact as I Translated Philippians 2 we've gone over this million times before I'm not going to repeat it now
55:15: But as I translate Philippians chapter 2 I see the phrases in verses 6 & 7 as the means by which
55:24: That emptying takes place by taking on the form of a servant by being found in human nature
55:31: He took upon him that is the emptying he took upon him our weakness and suffered and died
55:39: Exaltation or belongs to it in as much as by rising It laid aside all weaknesses and assumed a glory which it had not before but as to the deity
55:53: It was not lessened in the humiliation nor increased so let's
56:06: Change it up here swings it nor increased in the exaltation So what is the emptying but emptying is?
56:20: ascribed to it as to Concealment and restraining of glory and majesty
56:28: Under the form of a servant any Honest hearted man knows that's exactly what
56:37: I have been saying for minimally three decades any honest hearted person and if you've been telling students something different than that I Will let you deal with your own conscious at that point but you need to concealment and Restraining of glory that means he really wasn't
57:02: God. No, that's not what he's saying. Is it? That's not what he's saying. Is it no and that's never what then what
57:09: I'm saying either is it? Nope Some of you who are gonna be doing
57:16: Christology talks, you know in the next month or something like that. You might want to remember this stuff and Be careful.
57:22: Don't lie before God when you're misrepresenting others. Don't just don't misrepresent Just remember what's being said
57:29: Okay, because if you don't we will remind folks But exaltation is ascribed to it as to manifestation and Unfolding when the veil of the weakness of the flesh being removed that glory which he had from eternity and had been concealed for a time
57:55: Under that veil. Oh Goodness glory concealed for a time
58:04: Under that veil once again honest hearted men know That's exactly what
58:11: I've been saying. That's what I said. It's in print if You take the time to read what's in print a lot of people today didn't do that Had been concealed for a time not avail shown forth in the person of the mediator
58:25: Exalted above all heavens now, please notice something Let's go to another color here just to make it really stand out here that glory which he had from eternity is
58:40: Shown out where? John 17 5. Oh John 17 5
58:50: That's that's the member About six months ago all the
58:58: Woo -ha -ha going on about John 17 5 and My saying he's talking about pre -incarnate glory and now it's
59:08: That's the glory that he's talking about here. It seems that Turretin agrees Well, how'd that happen
59:15: Okay, the Son of Man is said to have emptied himself Philippians 2 Carmen Christi Not by an abdication of the deity for he remained always equal with God John 5 17 and 18 so it's not a getting rid of something but by a
59:37: Concealment of it under the servile form concealed
59:45: Concealment of it under the servile form. That's the flesh as a veil
59:53: This is the veiling Concealment restraining concealment of it under the servile form.
59:59: He became poor not by a loss of heavenly riches Which he always retained since the fullness of Godhead was in him and the treasures of wisdom and knowledge
01:00:09: Were laid up in him Philippians 2 3 8 2 3 8 9 But by a
01:00:19: Hiding of them Under the weak and needy flesh
01:00:29: Who knew That Turretin was a neosus Indian. Well, of course he wasn't and Neither have
01:00:37: I ever been and everyone who's used the term just needs to repent and Get with it.
01:00:44: So there you go Francis Turretin Let me look here
01:00:58: You know, I don't think it comes up on this rich in I gave the specific citation
01:01:07: For this in our channel, and unfortunately that no longer works on this unit and hence
01:01:14: I cannot pull that up but I gave When someone post that second paragraph
01:01:21: I I Posted in the channel what the actual reference was and I forgot to write it down and have it available here
01:01:29: If you can find it great, if not life will go on and and all will be well Okay If rich can find it,
01:01:37: I'll give it to you But if not, it's If you have it in electronic form, it's not difficult to track down Obviously just look for some of the key phrases.
01:01:48: That's certainly what I did To track it down in the first place All right
01:01:55: I'm not sure how I did that, but that's okay Okay I'm gonna skip some of the
01:02:09: I'm gonna skip the Modern the current event stuff. We've got an hour Current event stuff so that this can go on YouTube You the the
01:02:19: YouTube Sensors will be bored. They will have fallen asleep in the first five minutes this program.
01:02:25: So no worries But the next program we're not going to be able to skip it
01:02:33: No findy Yeah that just means we've we've talked too much since then but Yeah, I Remember what was posted and what
01:02:50: I put up but we've put a lot of stuff in there since then. Yes, but Most of our people are very very busy
01:03:02: Yes I'll skip the the That stuff so that we can do that next time and we won't even bother trying to put that one on YouTube because we know
01:03:15: It would happen anyway Just briefly I made reference to the fact that Matthew Barrett posted yesterday a day before Hans Boersma will join the
01:03:30: PhD residency at Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary to define Christian Platonism and Explain why a realist metaphysic can keep us from the nominalism of modernity which affects everything from our doctrine of God to our hermeneutical scripture the beatific vision itself.
01:03:47: I simply invite everybody to just read through dr. Barrett's Timeline You will be able to very quickly ascertain the accuracy of what we're saying when we say that this area of subject is
01:04:06: Absolutely positively central to everything he's writing about talking about doing
01:04:12: He said in the next tweet. I have zero interest bickering or dividing with folks on the label
01:04:18: CP Christian Platonist Exercise in missing the point. It's the content.
01:04:24: We're after the realistic metaphysic versus nominalistic elastic enough to discern historical progression from Plato to Aristotle from Augustinian to to mystic realism
01:04:36: So remember a month ago when someone? Popped off at me for Talking about Christian Platonism You're just you're just using these labels to attack people
01:04:51: No, I'm not Craig Carter is a Christian Platonist the central aspect of his argumentation is that we have to have
01:05:00: Christian Platonism and Boersma was the primary influence on the development of Carter's theology and of course,
01:05:11: I just simply pointed out that Boersma is professor of Aesthetical theology at an
01:05:20: Anglican University And of course Carter's PhD is from a believing
01:05:27: Catholic University and Carter's definition of Great tradition exegesis is soaked in the categories of Roman Catholic theology
01:05:39: And he admits it the very next paragraph After he gives that definition he admits it
01:05:49: But I can't get anybody to talk about it or just simply dismiss it or just you're just you're just using labels no, some of us is actually reading these people and Some of us have dealt with Roman Catholicism long enough to know where it's coming from And So there you go.
01:06:06: I think that's that's an important aspect Here it is Found it
01:06:15: Institutes of Atlantic theology 13 .9 .8 if you want the reference of what came before 13 .9
01:06:22: .8 I knew I'd find it eventually Thankfully my phone scrolled quickly enough to be able to grab it
01:06:31: All right. So one other thing that we need to Make sure we're all up on and then
01:06:39: I just want to make some comments about what happened today on social media We will
01:06:45: I Mentioned, I think on the last dividing line. I haven't gotten back with Michael about it, but Michael Brown will be joining me on The dividing line.
01:06:54: I'll be joining him on the on the firing line But not firing line Has a line line of fire
01:07:03: Line of fire. Thank you And we'll be talking about the 1946 movie which will premiere in less than a month 12th of November, I believe is the date in New York City and I had somebody in our channel just today saying yep you got to because I already have people asking me questions about it gets it's getting around and it will and We hit this a lot it was one of the first subjects we addressed in here
01:07:29: We have done two programs on that board We have gone through Leviticus 18 and 20 1st
01:07:36: Corinthians 6 1st Timothy 1 and we have Discussed arson a coy tie arson coy taste where it comes from what its origin source is how to do fair analysis these things and I'm telling you if you have tuned me out up till now stop tuning me out
01:07:57: You're gonna get hit with this if you're a Christian and you say anything about the gospel
01:08:05: This is that you're gonna you're gonna have people raising these objections to you You can either be prepared to turn it around to the glory of God and use it as a key to open up a presentation
01:08:17: Of the gospel or you can sit there and stutter Those are your choices This is not a well,
01:08:25: I just I'm just not gonna get into that That's not where we are in the world today, folks we have to be ready for this and so We've already done two programs.
01:08:38: I should probably go back and grab them and Relink them so that you can go back to them and Review the information and in fact,
01:08:50: I retweeted somebody did that. They Went back and grabbed it and I retweeted that day for yesterday,
01:08:55: I think but anyway this is not something we can we have to take advantage of the
01:09:07: Opportunities that are given to us and this is an opportunity yes, the people pushing this are promoting confusion and ungodliness and a rejection of the gospel and the whole nine yards fine
01:09:19: Use it for the good use it for the glory of God and The only way to do that is if all of us not well, here's a
01:09:27: URL go watch it if all of us know The subject well enough to handle the information
01:09:37: We have a standing invitation to the people who produce this film to debate the topic be happy to do it.
01:09:43: Let's do it. I Doubt they're gonna do that. But there you go But November 12th will be the premiere.
01:09:52: I assume it'll show up on some of the streaming Channels services whatever after that and Eventually will will be easily accessible to everybody and so you will have to be aware of this information
01:10:06: There is no place to hide. There is no place to hide Okay last thing
01:10:17: Let me read you Where did that go? Oh, maybe
01:10:24: I didn't open that one. No open that one.
01:10:31: Yeah, there it is. Okay. Let me read you a few tweets from this morning
01:10:39: Here's one PSA that means public service announcement for those of you who aren't used to that If you're curious about the value of medieval sources the nature of solo scriptura, etc.
01:10:51: Don't waste your time reading this They don't interact their opponents they ask questions no one is asking their refute views.
01:10:59: No one is espousing. You're welcome with a link to today's Grace Bible Theological Seminary journal that was released at 10 a .m.
01:11:10: This morning. I Believe that this was posted less than two hours and it may have been less than one hour but the time
01:11:20: Differences not 100 % sure but here you have an individual and Maybe he read the whole thing in that time frame
01:11:30: But this is the kind of bias and bigotry and scholastic snobbery
01:11:38: That we are facing today. For example, if you're curious about the value of medieval sources the nature of solo scriptura if any of you have taken a look we're talking about the first edition of the new
01:11:53: Grace Bible Theological Seminary journal for pastors and I have two articles in it.
01:12:01: It was initially one article that got too big and So we had to split it up.
01:12:09: I was originally going to write be writing simply on Thomas Aquinas's view Regarding the subject of what we would call solo scriptura and my conclusion by the way
01:12:20: Is that that's that is an anachronistic question That No one in the days of Thomas Was arguing about what we are arguing about today.
01:12:32: And so it is a common historical error to try to go back and take somebody out of the context in which they were living and Ask questions of them that they never actually addressed an answer but my conclusion was
01:12:51: No, he did not hold to what we believe is solo scriptura he may but He was not as far in the departure
01:13:02: From solo scriptura as modern Roman Catholicism and certainly not as tridentine Roman Catholicism the counter -reformation
01:13:08: Roman Catholicism so It was a nuanced answer.
01:13:14: It drew from his own writings But before you could address
01:13:21: That you had to define solo scriptura. So we broke it up to where I have an basically an article that walks through the first chapter as I've done in this program of the
01:13:31: London Maps Confession of Faith and defines solo scriptura So here you have a statement
01:13:40: If you're curious about the value of the nature of solo scriptura don't waste your time reading this well, thank you very much
01:13:45: No, no interaction With what was said, of course and I Within a few minutes because it posted at 10 a .m.
01:13:58: This morning. I think it was 10 a .m It's that central time. I think so Anyway within a few minutes
01:14:07: I posted I said let me wax prophetic and I said this is this this kind of response
01:14:12: You get Wow Did I nail that one And in fact,
01:14:18: I wasn't nearly nasty enough to cover the kind of commentary that Has Come out they don't interact their opponents.
01:14:30: Yes, we do. It's a lie You know who I'm just gonna avoid the name for right now, but but you know who you are and you lied
01:14:38: That's a lie. I have had many of my opponents Exactly raise the issues that I dealt with in my in my
01:14:46: Articles you lied about my articles. Why I Want you to sit back and ask yourself the question, why could you not even try to be accurate?
01:14:57: No They ask questions. No one is asking wrong untrue Maybe you're just maybe you're just living in an ivory tower someplace and you don't even know what's going on social media
01:15:07: I don't know but this just it's just wrong They refute views no one is espousing Okay All right.
01:15:16: Well, there's the first sad one Then we have this guy. I've blocked him. But but but I pulled it up because someone posted it
01:15:25: Because there's the the GBTS seminary announcement pro pastor the name of the journal
01:15:32: That's the journal multiple authors He says I highly recommend this article
01:15:39: It's not an article journal There is a difference between the two. I highly recommend this article written by three people
01:15:47: There was more than three people who either have no clue about what Aquinas teaches or engaging in rank sophistry
01:15:53: Whose quote scholarly and quote qualifications are having large followings of rabid sycophants
01:16:01: GBTS is the IFB KJVO Bible College of the neo -reformed. This is someone who clearly has not even read it
01:16:11: Doesn't even know what it is doesn't know how many people contributed to it thinks it's an article Wow talk about face plant
01:16:20: Just but can you can you get the visceral? Anger how dare you people do this
01:16:31: Then Robert Briggs from over in Sacramento Robert Briggs Steve Meister of Briggs over at Emanuel Claiming that genuine and faithful attempts notice the notice the spin there genuine and faithful attempts to appropriate the great theologians of the church to the church today is somehow nefarious ecumenism is
01:16:58: Ridiculous and dangerous cults are formed that way beware of such folly Hmm now there's a vagueness here, but I would just I would just go okay
01:17:15: Um Part of our argumentation is that we're not being genuine and faithful to our own theology
01:17:24: When we fundamentally sacrifice our commitment to the supremacy of Scripture Great theologians of the church to the church today
01:17:34: I Really struggle with the idea that most of the framers in London that confession would have viewed the
01:17:44: Church of Trent as the church maybe you've changed your view but But Robert, you know, this is not what you believed only a while ago
01:17:56: You know it. I know it everybody knows It's ridiculous and dangerous
01:18:06: Cults are formed that way cults are Formed that way what we're simply sitting here saying brothers.
01:18:15: You've lost your balance brothers. You are being led away By the wisdom of the world by sophistry
01:18:23: But I haven't said anything about a cult starting. Why do you guys have to do? The reactions that we have seen so far
01:18:33: Have been visceral emotional immature and child They have not engaged the substance substance of what it's been argued at all
01:18:43: Which is exactly what I said would take place. I wasn't trying to I didn't want it to be that way.
01:18:51: I Didn't expect it to be this bad But the speed There is no way that anyone had read my discussion of Thomas and his you know, he talks about Scripture in Very exalted language.
01:19:09: The only way to check the accuracy of that is to go back and do it You didn't have time to do that before you wrote this stuff.
01:19:15: You know it you know it in your heart and mind You're responding without doing due diligence, it's sinful and it's wrong
01:19:29: Disagree, if you will, but good grief have the have the Christian character to sit back and Check your sources actually, listen
01:19:46: This is knee -jerk reactions all it is from every one of these guys knee -jerk reaction.
01:19:55: It's amazing and What it tells me is, you know, I've I've said from I don't even know when there should be
01:20:08: Get together. There should be papers. There should be a debate You guys are not acting like people who have any interest in doing anything like that Oh, you're acting like the people who think you've already got this all settled.
01:20:19: Everybody else just needs to repent and believe you That's why I am less and less and less
01:20:27: Convinced anything like that will ever happen Because of this kind of stuff, you know when you all put something out, you know what we do
01:20:37: We get the links We download We listen we discuss
01:20:45: You didn't see us posting stuff five minutes after One of your conferences and you know what when you all do your
01:20:53: Christology conference, you know what we're gonna do We're gonna download it. We're gonna listen to it. We're not gonna respond to it within two hours
01:20:58: Because we actually have respect for this subject. I'm just I am shocked.
01:21:04: I am amazed at the behavior of These individuals that I continue to call my brothers, but oh my goodness.
01:21:14: I Will never treat you the way you treat us I will not will not do it. I Will not do it.
01:21:20: I'll call you out. I'll say this is childish behavior And I'll say look if you disagree with what
01:21:26: I wrote prove me wrong Show me where I was wrong by about what I said about solo scripture. Show me where I was wrong in my
01:21:33: Interpretation of the first chapter of London basketball show me where I was wrong about Thomas. Oh goodness, Thomas Thomas is not a completely consistent source.
01:21:41: So you could probably find a way to try to argue something. But the reality is I took a very
01:21:49: Moderating historical position. It's anachronistic to ask if Thomas Aquinas Functioned on the basis of solo scriptura, that's an anachronistic question.
01:22:00: I said that from the start argued it but then what I did I Went into citations from him and we only have so much space you could with Thomas.
01:22:11: That's the point It's so easy to dismiss anyone who criticizes Thomas because you could always find something else that Thomas wrote on something
01:22:19: You've got a huge amount of stuff to pull from but on the subject of the primacy of scripture as The rule of faith we dealt with the key texts
01:22:32: Have you? Did you before posting this kind of stuff and I simply ask honestly, why not?
01:22:43: What has happened? Because for every single one of you that I knew only a few years ago, this is not how you behave then what has happened
01:22:53: What has happened? I don't get it. I don't get it. So I'm sure there'll be more but like I said
01:23:02: There's a bunch of stuff here To look at from what's going on in the world that It's probably best not to mix into this so that Things can get posted it's
01:23:17: Censorship is such a wonderful thing to have to deal with Anyway, so with that we will wrap things up on the village.
01:23:24: That's right about well No, we started five minutes late. So it's not exactly 90 minutes, but close enough close up.
01:23:30: Like I said Fall is here The Coogee has arrived Rich is sad
01:23:38: Rich is wearing shorts But and I'm and I'm overheated. There's no question about it
01:23:44: But it's fall for crying out loud, and I'm going to enjoy it because it'll be stinking hot by March Fall is here, but autumn will come
01:23:57: We don't have fall here. That's the problem. We only schedule winter in for two weeks in January for crying out loud
01:24:03: This just goes it's gone So there you go. Anyways, thanks for watching the program today.
01:24:10: Oh, by the way There they are. Remember I said I said on social media today.
01:24:15: What's gonna happen to all of our purple copies? Of the existence of attributes of God and I think it's a new version out.
01:24:20: This has worked perfectly fine for me In fact, I was opening it up. I found an old old business card.
01:24:25: I mean this was 1990 right in the section on the immutability of God look at that been reading this for decades, huh?