Questions & Answers

Bethlehem Bible Church

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August 28, 2022

00:00: Uh, Pat is Mike's, obviously his younger brother. What do you mean?
00:06: Obviously the hair notice I have hair. It's a clue, although it's not always a telling.
00:14: Well, I won't talk about my brother, but he has no hair. He was here. Mike just tells me if you want to know what you're going to be like in nine years, just look at me.
00:24: Yeah, that's not going to happen. Uh, Pat is the pastor at Omaha Bible church. And has been for how many years since 1998, since 1998,
00:34: I can't do the math. Let's call it 24 years. So, uh, quite a while.
00:41: And, uh, Pat also has a podcast called the pactum where he stars and sells coffee on the side and all kinds of merch.
00:54: Um, anything else I should say about him? Just the smartest guy up here. Okay. So, yeah, that's good.
01:03: Well, Pat, let me ask you this. Uh, your dad died in 1989. What kind of impact did that have on you?
01:10: Where were you then? And what did it, how, how did it impact your life?
01:16: Okay. Good morning, everyone. Thanks for hosting. Thanks for allowing me to be here. I love
01:21: BBC, love my brother. I love Steve. So Mike and I were in New York city doing a conference, had a great time.
01:28: Puffy eyes. Cause we just got into town. So anyway, so yeah, our dad died in 1989.
01:36: So you said, I think it's probably the biggest, most significant event in my entire life, other than conversion.
01:43: I think the Lord used it to draw me to himself. I was just the silly, naive kid that thought my whole world revolved around Omaha, Nebraska and my family and my dad.
01:56: And things would always be the way they were. And he died. And I think I was to use psychological terminology in denial, in denial, changed everything.
02:06: So the Lord used it radically in my life to unsettle me and caused me to ask big questions about life, death, eternity.
02:15: So I think that's really what God used me, used to save me. So I'm, I wish I could talk to my dad.
02:20: I wish I could go ride motorcycles with my dad. I wish I could go to his house today. All of those kinds of things.
02:26: I miss him desperately, but God used that as a gift in my life, a tragedy for good.
02:32: So I think maybe similarly in Mike's life, maybe not exactly the same, but. Pat, remember when the
02:39: Lutheran pastor came over to our house after dad died? And then he said, well, how would you like the funeral to be arranged?
02:46: And then he looked at me and he said, uh, Mike, here's the Bible. And what do you want me to say from the
02:53: Bible about your dad during the funeral? I don't know. I know the
02:58: Bible a little bit, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. I had no idea. So I just said, Oh, I'm kind of in, you know, in despair and in grief, whatever you think's appropriate.
03:07: But deep down, I thought I'm never going to be embarrassed again. If someone says to me, what's in the
03:12: Bible, I'm going to know. So I even wanted to know as an unbeliever, what's in this book, right? This is,
03:18: I knew it was God's word. I didn't really believe it all, but I wanted to know. And so similar to Pat, I thought the stability in our family's gone.
03:26: The rock is gone. The anchor's gone. The provider's gone. The six, four, two 40 golden gloves fighter gone from Korean war.
03:34: He's gone. Now what? So is there, I didn't say it at the time, but the real question was, is there another father?
03:43: Well, that leads to my second question. I just want to know who decided to go to seminary first.
03:50: Oh, that one's easy. Mike went to seminary and he would send me his notes all the time. I had no clue about anything, but I did almost graduate before him.
03:58: So he started like three years before me, and then I came to seminary and then we graduated together.
04:05: But M starts before P I thought about legally having my name changed. Just so Andrew Abendroth could graduate first, but it didn't work.
04:15: Oh, a funny seminary story is one time Mike said, Hey, did you get that hermeneutics paper done?
04:21: This is like on a Monday and classes Tuesday. And I'm like, what? Yeah. We have a hermeneutics paper due tomorrow for Dr.
04:27: Roscoe. Oh, so all nighter stress, panic, all of this stuff.
04:33: I think I wrote it on Matthew 13 in a parable and just complete stress basket. All literal all nighter get to class the next day.
04:40: And Mike's behind me and pokes me. He goes, Hey, sorry. Yeah, that was a next week.
04:47: Let's do the next week. So the brother that God gave me, he sent you a week ahead.
04:56: Right? Yeah. Clear your schedule. What man intended for evil? God intended for good.
05:04: Well, I remember, uh, three years into seminary, Pat came out cause I was working full time, teaching the
05:11: Bible regularly and going to school part time. And so I thought I need to finish school at the same time.
05:16: I can't have my younger brother finished first, but I took a semester off because I thought, you know, my marriage isn't the best and you can't do everything in the world.
05:25: And I just thought I just need to quit for a while, focus on Kim, and then I'll go back into seminary because if you can't run your own household, how can you want to be a pastor even?
05:35: So I quit for a semester. I remember writing the letter to Jim George in tears, thinking basically
05:42: I'm a sinner, right? I can't manage all these things. And then I found out that Pat was going to graduate in 96 and I thought better make sure our marriage gets better real fast.
05:51: I've got to graduate with Pat, honey. I'm sorry. Please forgive me. I'll do better.
05:57: So we graduated together. You had to step it up. All right. I have one more story about seminary that maybe, maybe
06:03: I shouldn't tell, but Mike, before I went to seminary, when he first started,
06:10: Mike was making a lot of money. Successful in sales, like a lot of money from my perspective.
06:16: And he's like, Hey, you know what? Come out, you've saved up money and you've got all this going on and, and I'll give you money every month.
06:24: I don't think it happened one time. So in part, we moved to California cause my older brother was going to help fund it.
06:34: I got zero. Oh, well, uh, I'm sorry. I'll make it up.
06:40: This is nice. We can have family amends right here. It wasn't because he lied.
06:45: It's because downturn to change a job laid off. Yeah. I remember what happened.
06:51: I had a little book by Thomas Watson, the Puritan banner of truth book. It was called all things for good
06:57: Romans eight 28. And it's a classic book and I wanted to read it and I thought, you know, but the only problem is if I read it,
07:04: I'm going to have to live it. So I put it back. You don't read books on humility.
07:09: Wink, wink. And I read the book, got laid off like the next week.
07:15: Haley's tiny. I had no job. Couldn't support my younger brother. Uh, Pat, do you have any
07:20: RC Sproul, um, Ligonier stories? I don't know.
07:26: Maybe we shouldn't tell the story. Okay. It's it's too candid. You know what?
07:32: Yeah, we better not tell that story. I'm still in counseling over it. Because of what
07:38: God did through my big brother. Man, I feel like I just stepped into an
07:43: Oprah show. So, uh,
07:49: Pat, what's something unique in Mike's preaching that you really like? You really enjoy. He's clear and clarity is underrated.
08:01: And so I love that. And I love being able to go home and read the passage. Let's say if I'm listening in person, read the passage and I can understand it better instead of being confused by it.
08:13: So I like that. I think a lot of preaching is confusing. So Mike is clear. He's, um,
08:18: I use this word for his, I was at the 20 year anniversary and I don't use it very often, but when
08:23: I think of Mike in general, he's earnest and I like that word a lot because it has to do with legitimate having integrity.
08:30: It's not some kind of fake life that doesn't match the preaching. And so earnest preaching,
08:36: I appreciate it's from the heart and it's clear. And Mike, what do you like about your preaching?
08:44: No, not your preaching. Cause that would be, that would be a dissection, right?
08:50: Yeah. That's the worst, right? When you critique yourself, I could probably say many words, but it'll sound funny at the beginning and then
08:58: I'll clarify, uh, confident, right. And I don't mean confident in self, but when
09:04: I listened to Pat, I know he's done the study. Uh, we joke about who's the smarter brother, but it's really
09:09: Pat. And when you talk to him about issues and details and theological things, very, very insightful.
09:15: And I know you've studied Pat. So when I listen, I think I can take it easy. I don't have to question everything.
09:21: He's confident because your confidence isn't in self. It's I know the passage I've devoted the time to study and I know it and I can understand the passage better.
09:30: So I think confident. Kind of you to say somebody, I was scrambling last week to get ready for this conference and someone in our office said, you know what they told me in the corporate world, you know, if you, you know, what do they say about fake it, fake it till you make it.
09:45: And I said, well, the only problem for me is I can't fake it. I'm not good enough at it.
09:51: Thus don't bother me. I'm going to my office to beat my head against the wall and pray. So put that on a poster, right?
09:59: Don't bother me. I'm going to my office. All right. Okay. How, how do you define
10:05: Mike? How do you define the difference between law preaching and gospel preaching? Well, law, as you all know, and the congregation is something from God.
10:17: It's good. Reflects his nature, his character, and we want to obey God as created beings.
10:23: And so there's nothing wrong with law. Gospel is good news. It centers around the personal work of the Lord Jesus that the father has sent.
10:31: Excuse me. But law preaching in general really gives no good news.
10:36: It's just to do list. It doesn't give me a motivation to obey. Oh, this is what the Lord has done for me. What's that old
10:42: Spurgeon quote. When I thought God was hard, it was difficult to obey. But when
10:47: I found out how much he loved me, I wanted to just obey him and honor him.
10:52: So I think law only preaching is you're just getting whacked all the time. And as a Christian, you walk out thinking,
10:58: I don't even know if I'm saved or not. Law preaching is good if you end up then preaching the gospel as well.
11:05: So to be convicted is good. To hear God's law is good. To be motivated to obey is good. But then afterwards, we're not going to have those bruised reeds just broken off.
11:15: They're going to be encouraged. And just like we'd want to train up our children after you disobey, I love you.
11:21: You ask for forgiveness. Come alongside. So law only preaching is never giving good news as.
11:30: Glad I'm not preaching today. Sin bearing Lord Jesus or specifically
11:35: Jesus's active obedience as he obeys in my place. So that's what I would say. Law preaching is it almost makes you think the pastor's mad at me.
11:43: Therefore, God must be mad at me because I never measure up. And that's not what we do in Christianity.
11:49: It's not transactional. I have to try to measure up or else we're in Christ. We're adopted and therefore be who you are.
11:56: Right. The Christian life is not. I have to be somebody I'm not because you can never be somebody you're not.
12:01: Instead, the Christian life is because of Christ. Be who you are. Here's who I am in Christ.
12:07: Here's what I'm able to do. I have the spirit dwelling in me and I'll just try to be who I am in Christ. Not strive to be somebody
12:13: I never could be. Thank you, Pat. Let me ask you about same principle, basically.
12:20: But have you ever taken a gospel passage and turned it into law? Is this some kind of confessional thing we're going to do?
12:33: Okay. There's a little screen between us and I have to tell him all the bad things I've done. And he'll say,
12:39: I pardon you. Tabs, although we just were at St.
12:44: Patrick's cathedral a couple of days ago. Yeah, we did. And you've got those little things that you put your credit card in 50 bucks and you get something back.
12:51: And I thought, what do you get back? Nothing. Right. No receipts. So no receipts, $50 indulgence, no receipt.
12:58: You'll get it in purgatory. Oh, funny. I was at the Vatican one time at the
13:04: Vatican bookstore and they sell indulgences there and there's a little calculator right there on the counter. And so I was just being silly.
13:12: And I typed in six, six, six and showed my friend who was with me. And then the lady came over and said, can
13:18: I help you gentlemen? And I said, no. Oh, anyway.
13:24: Okay. So yeah, I think I have. So old sermons probably oftentimes, maybe even from a gospel account.
13:32: And it's something that Jesus has done. That's wonderful. And then you tell the people, so you must do what
13:37: Jesus does. I think that's taking a gospel account and turning it into law. Okay.
13:43: And, and the problem with that is basically the problem with that is if I were Jesus and my own savior, it would be fine.
13:51: So the classic example, I've probably even used it here before when Jesus has tempted too many preachers, self -confession, um, too many preachers turned it into, look,
14:02: Jesus was tempted and you're going to be tempted. And Jesus quotes the Bible and that's how he overcomes temptation.
14:07: So you'd better know your Bible secondary application. I would say that's good to know.
14:12: You should know your Bible. And when Satan tempts you to be good to quote the Bible. Okay, great. But if that's what it's about, first and foremost, you're not reading the
14:20: Bible the way most Christians ever in the history of Christianity have read the Bible, Jesus is the last
14:26: Adam he's there. He's on earth as our representative, firstly, not as our example.
14:31: And so we should read it and say, Oh, this looks a lot like what happened in the garden the first time. And now we're in a garden and now we have a representative and he's tempted by Satan, so many things, the same, and he's victorious.
14:44: The point is trust in him. It's a gospel passage, not follow him or else.
14:49: So there's my sermon for today. Let's close in prayer. Amen. Well, what's that Beal book?
14:55: The right doctrine from the wrong texts. That's right. So Psalm 119, hide your hide
15:01: God's word in your heart so that you might not sin against him. It's true, but I'm not a good enough hider, but once I'm in Christ, now
15:09: I want to do the right thing in light of it. What did S Lewis Johnson say when a man told him Jesus is only an example and I take him as an example only, not as a substitute, penalty substitution, gory, bloody, awful stuff.
15:22: I don't want that. He's only my example. And Lewis said to him, well, how you living up to his example? He said, not so well.
15:29: So now you need him as substitute as well. That's good. Yeah. And that's since Jesus lived the, he obeyed the law.
15:35: So Jesus life preaches law to you. And so you shouldn't look at Jesus and say, whoa, is me.
15:41: I'm undone because he's perfect and did everything perfectly. So, man,
15:48: I'm so thankful that God is kind and merciful and gracious when it comes to preaching. I remember being in preaching classes and thinking it's always about, you know, it's kind of like the
15:59: B series, right? Be faithful, be joyful, be earnest, be it's law, law, law, law, even though some of those things are good, but I'm thinking if I could just find the imperatives and preach the imperatives because they'll preach, but I didn't understand indicative, imperative gospel law.
16:19: Anyway, it was right before our very eyes to you. Look at Ephesians and you think, Oh, chapters one, two, and three.
16:24: Here's who God is. Here's who you are in Christ. Colossians one and two, right?
16:30: Hebrews one to 12. And then we see our response to God's work. We graciously went to obey.
16:38: Okay. Number six. And I'll, I'll give this to Pat. Are you now, or have you ever been in antinomian?
16:46: See, here we go with more of the confession kind of stuff. Well, you know, first, if you would just define what absolutely, absolutely.
16:54: Thank you, man. On the smaller seat. We actually have these stools in our kitchen, so I feel right at home.
17:05: I feel like I should be eating Greek yogurt, Greek yogurt and blueberries or something. Okay. So antinomianism would be anti law, anti Namas and antinomian typically is somebody who doesn't think you have to obey
17:18: God's law at all. So people who would either theologically, they would say you're not under any obligation to God's law.
17:26: For example, moral law in the old Testament, people who say that historically are antinomian, uh, or people who practically are antinomian.
17:35: You can live, live however you want to live. So, Hey, I'm in by grace and now I can just send it up sort of like the question that's anticipated in Romans six,
17:44: Paul expects people to ask, Hey, can we be antinomian now the answer's no, but I've been an antinomian for sure as an unbeliever in my life.
17:54: Even if I didn't know theological categories, I live for as a law unto myself and, but upon becoming a
18:01: Christian, it's like, no, God requires things. I don't measure up. I have to trust in Christ, the perfectly obedient one.
18:07: Now I want to obey the law, even though I don't do it perfectly. Um, God sees me as if I am perfect.
18:15: So never been an antinomian, even though today I might be, here's, let me put it this way. I want to be accused of being an antinomian.
18:23: Think about that. Why would I say that as a Christian, I want you to be accused of being an antinomian sort of like your pastor is commonly accused of being an antinomian.
18:35: Okay. Here's why not because of your lifestyle, not because you lead a double life.
18:41: Um, but because you're so clear on the doctrine of justification, like the apostle Paul is in Romans one to five, so clear that God justifies the ungodly
18:53: Romans four that people say, excuse me, I have a question.
18:59: Roman six, right? Does this mean I can do whatever I want to do? And the apostle
19:04: Paul says by no means. And he explains why, but if you're not being accused of being one, you might just be a neo -nomian, somebody who says it's faith and works.
19:15: So that's going to be my little spiel for the day on that issue. I probably am an antinomian every time
19:23: I sin as a Christian functionally, right? Oh, I'm acting like God's law. It doesn't matter.
19:28: I think the big reveal for me was God's law to an unbeliever. He requires perfect obedience, but now what about the law to a believer?
19:38: And now the law to the believer says to you, uh, for your good. Obey for my glory obey, but it doesn't change our status, our condition.
19:48: Remember, we ought not to think about God as less kind and gracious than our own fathers.
19:55: Fathers don't say, if you sin one time and break my rule, you're kicked out of the family forever. Maybe some have said that, but the heavenly father doesn't.
20:04: And so we have the law of God through the hands of Christ and we want to obey out of gratitude, but not to keep our standing with God, that text does say we're under grace, not law.
20:16: What does he mean as a condemning instrument? We're no longer under law to condemn us because Jesus has paid for that and earned righteousness for us elsewhere.
20:26: We see God's law walk in a manner worthy. Don't complain. Um, athlete language, farmer language, soldier language, work language, toil language, stay up late at night language, be alert language.
20:38: And we do that because we know God wants us to, but not because we have to earn favor with him. So I just want to be clear about the law from God is no longer from a judge.
20:50: Our relationship has changed and it's from a father who loves us. Okay, good.
20:58: All right. Number seven. If you Mike could wave a wand and change one thing and one thing only in today's evangelical churches, what would it be?
21:09: That would be the spirit of divination and we'd have to kill him in the old Testament. There'll be an execution after church.
21:19: Good thing we're not theonomous. I thought it was going to be clever and say your seat height, but then
21:28: Pat stole the thunder. It's not funny anymore. Uh, one thing in evangelicalism,
21:39: I mean, you know what I harp about these days. And if I get asked to go speak at a conference on whatever it is, end times,
21:45: I ended up talking about law, gospel, and sanctification, you know, whatever it is, because you ended up talking about the Lord Jesus.
21:51: And I think probably my biggest complaint about evangelicalism is they evangelicalism believe that Jesus lived, died, was buried, raised, ascended, and will come back.
22:03: But now that we got that over and believed in him, let's get over to moralism and laws and other things.
22:09: I wish they'd talk about it's Jesus, not just to get into heaven, but Jesus to live a holy life, right?
22:15: He gives us his spirit and the fruit of the spirit is love and joy. So Christ for pardon and Christ for power.
22:20: I think that's, what's lacking in the Ted talk Christianity, uh, that you turn on it's five ways, four methods, three steps, two special ways.
22:29: And one, I don't know, whatever, but that's what we want. Because as a congregation, you don't do this, but many congregations just tell me a few things to do and I'll do them.
22:38: And now I can feel good about my Christianity because I did what I'm supposed to do. I had my quiet time. I did my prayer walk.
22:43: I did this, that, and the other. And I want them to do that, but not, that's just out of the flow of gratitude for what
22:49: God has done. So it's like I can get my Christianity out of the way by noon, right?
22:54: Right, right. Now I can live the rest of my day in peace. And Pat, what would you do?
23:00: What would you change if you could just change one thing about evangelicalism? I would agree with Mike, but if I'm going to take a different tact, maybe it's going to be,
23:10: I would change people's perspective on the righteousness of God. First of all, that they would understand what that even means, uh, that God has a holy law and it is a requirement that you keep it personally, perfectly, and perpetually.
23:27: So no one gets to heaven without being perfect. I'm thinking of Romans 10. It's one of my favorite passages because the
23:33: Jews Paul talks about didn't understand the righteousness of God. And so they didn't understand that there's no possible way there there's heart, soul, mind, and strength and neighbor as yourself loving
23:44: God, never. So if we really understood righteousness and what it actually looks like from God, if we really understood
23:51: God, what would happen is we would all say, what was me? I'm undone. I can't do it.
23:56: This is awful. This is terrible. I'm depressed and there's no hope. And that would be awesome because then you look outside of yourself to, to look to Romans 10 righteousness provided by a substitute who perfectly did it for me.
24:11: But I don't think people, they don't understand. So they create their own righteousness, me and Jesus, and we can do it together as long as I'm faithful enough.
24:19: So Romans 10 is phenomenal to consider. I'm going to use that opening for my next sermon.
24:26: There's no hope for you. That's awesome. When you,
24:32: I told Mike yesterday, when you drive across the golden gate bridge and they have like the help phone numbers, 1 -800, you know, don't jump it's 1 -800 jump or look to Christ.
24:46: I mean, there's no hope despair. I can't remember who talked about doing it. Maybe it was just in theory, but I liked the idea.
24:53: Of just preaching law only some Sunday and don't even close in prayer. Just close the
24:59: Bible and walk out. You know, I don't want to do it because we're gospel preachers, but for effect to just lay it out there.
25:07: You know what? Apart from you being perfect, you've already committed enough sins today to go to hell and you do every day and every second, and there's no hope for you.
25:15: Have a nice day. I mean, that's God's righteousness and it's good. And so we need to come to grips with that.
25:23: I think you are sinners in the hands of an angry God. You are dismissed. What's for lunch.
25:31: All right, Pat, deeper question. Was Jesus submissive to the father prior to the incarnation?
25:40: If not, then how are we to understand passages passages that tell us the father sent the son?
25:47: Okay. So I think the answer to the first part of it is no. Jesus was not submissive to the father prior to the incarnation because that would be an ancient heresy, but it is promoted today by EFS, the eternal functional subordination of the sun movement.
26:04: So that would be Wayne Grudem and that would be Owen Strand and that would be Bruce Ware, the father -in -law to Owen Strand and others.
26:13: And I've thought that before, because we're doing confessions with Steve. It's my new podcast.
26:19: Okay. Right. So as happy days was to Laverne and Shirley.
26:25: So no compromise was to confessions with Steve. Confessions with Steve, right? We have this thing on the pactum called the pactum absolvum.
26:33: So maybe this is the pactum absolvum. We have a pactum sofa too. So we'll have to have
26:39: Steve's sofa. Okay. So it's important and I know that's why
26:46: Steve asked the question. Um, it's important that we remember Jesus submitted, but he submitted in the incarnation and coming to earth.
26:54: And that's important in history because there's been a big debate over whether or not Jesus is full.
27:00: Is it is divine? Is he truly the eternal God, the second person of the
27:06: Godhead? And that's why people before us have said things carefully, like very God of very
27:11: God, begotten, not made of one being with the father full of grace and truth. All of these, all of this verbiage is to protect the, the absolute equality of the son with the father.
27:23: He he's just as divine as the father is. Same with the spirit. It's a lot of bloodshed over this, a lot of struggle and persecution over this.
27:34: It's what it's Trinitarianism 101. So if you are a Christian, you're a Trinitarian. If you're a
27:39: Trinitarian, uh, in, in any kind of old classic, nice scene, ancient sense, you don't think that Jesus submitted to the father before the incarnation.
27:50: That's what I'm saying. That's what we would all say. So with that, because think about it. When he comes to earth, he humbles himself.
27:58: That's, that's, that's extraordinary. Like the Bible emphasizes like that, like, isn't it amazing in Philippians chapter two, that he humbled himself and became a human being.
28:09: Well, that wouldn't be so amazing if he'd been humbling himself all along. No, this is, this is new.
28:15: This is different incarnation. He humbled himself and took on the form of a man and he suffered and, and, and even death on a cross.
28:24: So that's, that's the extraordinary. Um, it's not like, well, this is how it's always been.
28:30: Um, before the foundation of the world, this is how it was. No, it's special. It's unique. Uh, and so we have to keep that in mind.
28:36: That's kind of the way Christians have understood it, but we fall asleep at the wheel, so to speak. We say we're
28:42: Biblicists. We don't need church history. We don't need theological history. It's me, the Bible, and the
28:47: Holy spirit. And I'll just make this up as I go, because I believe in the sufficiency of scripture, the sufficiency of Pat and my favorite celebrity
28:55: Christians, uh, who are my confessions, we've kind of lost our way. So I'm sorry, going on a rant now, but dangerous times.
29:03: So let's just say we were wrong and then move on. I was wrong. Um, again, confessions with Steve.
29:11: That's right. That's right. And I, I avoided the last part because Mike was just itching to use theological verbiage.
29:17: How could he. Obey the father, right? Well, one of the things
29:23: I think is why do we mess with the Trinity? There are reasons people do things for reasons. And so I think they're messing with the
29:29: Trinity because they, they need reinforcements to cultural problems. Here's a cultural problem.
29:35: Uh, since the culture says men and women are equal functionally, relationally, everything else are equal.
29:41: Then how can we have roles where the wife submits to the husband? It's difficult. That's a hard word, right?
29:47: You were going to do the Fonzie word on wrong. He can't say the word wrong. Uh, I don't think Fonzie could say submit either.
29:53: I mean, a wife submit to your husband's when I officiate weddings and I know there's a bunch of unbelievers there.
29:58: And I say to the wife, do you promise to submit to your husband? The people look, what are they doing? So wouldn't this make it easier?
30:06: Jesus has always submitted to the father. Jesus is equal to the father. It's okay.
30:12: Wives submit to your husband's because Jesus submitted to the father in eternity past, it just makes it easier.
30:17: So that's, I think why they're tinkering with it and we don't need that in order to teach their roles in a family we're equal in Christ Galatians three, but we have different functions in the church and at home, do you think maybe it makes it easier for us to sort of understand the
30:33: Trinity if we, if we establish an eternal hierarchy and, you know, well, it does say that, you know, that the son is of the father and the spirit is of the father and the sent by the son.
30:46: And so isn't it easier if we just go one, two, three way easier. And I've been told that if you talk about the
30:53: Trinity for more than two minutes, you're bound to say something heretical. So I just go really slowly.
30:59: Jesus is God. The father is God. But what happens is we hear, hear word father and son.
31:05: We always think the word father means greater than the son. And these are relational terms. We have to make sure we think biblically.
31:12: The father in life starts off as a son becomes a father. Did the father in heaven start off as a son and become a father?
31:19: No. And these are just relational terms. The son doesn't submit to the father eternally, but in the incarnation, he does your, whatever you will let your will be done in eternity past the father, the son and the spirit in an eternal council.
31:35: They didn't sit down, but eternal council, the father with the son and the spirit decided that it was right for the son to go rescue the elect, the spirit to apply that work and the father to send him.
31:47: But it wasn't, oh, I'm underneath you. I go. No, this was a triune council.
31:52: It wasn't the father's council. It was a triune God's council. Something that I think Pat calls the pactum.
31:58: You have to listen to the pactum. It's on, uh, Apple podcasts and, uh, the pactum.
32:05: Dot org. Okay. Easy to find. Uh -huh. Well, I'm going to ask
32:10: Pat a simple yes or no question. Will the son Jesus Christ, will he rule in heaven eternally as a man by the power of the
32:20: Holy spirit only, or will he, will he reassume his full deity?
32:28: I think the answer is yes. He will rule. He will rule as a man by the power of the
32:33: Holy spirit forever and ever. And he's, he's the God man. And I think he'll always be the God man. I don't know.
32:39: I think that's right. I've learned enough to know you better be really careful when you talk about this stuff.
32:46: Let me check my notes. So if you don't know the answer to the question, you go with what you know.
32:52: We know Jesus is in heaven. Now the languages of prominence, honor seated at the right hand of the father, et cetera.
33:00: We know he still has a human body, correct? He probably has five wounds. Some, I think
33:06: Calvin said he doesn't have any wounds anymore because it's glorified body, but on earth glorified body, you could still see, uh, right in John, uh, 21.
33:14: I believe that he had the wounds on his hands and his feet and his side. Uh, he, his human nature is ruling there in heaven and his divine nature is everywhere, right?
33:26: Is Jesus here now? Lo, I'm with you always, even at the end of the age. Well, his divine nature is everywhere.
33:31: His human nature is in heaven. And you think, how does that work out? That is first Timothy three.
33:37: Great is the mystery of godliness. The, uh, the whole idea of the incarnation is very, very difficult.
33:43: I think the father with the son and the spirit are there in heaven. Jesus has a body.
33:48: What does that look like when we get there? I see revelation four and five. The center of everything is the lamb on the throne.
33:55: And so if you have to see God who is unseeable because he's a spirit, the only way you could see
34:01: God is by seeing the sun. So my guess is we're going to get to heaven and all the fullness of the deity dwells in bodily form in Christ.
34:09: And we will see Jesus, the lamb standing as if slain. Okay. So here's, here's a question that a lot of people struggle with, including my own reformation study
34:22: Bible. Is his sanctification monergistic or synergistic and why you're looking at me?
34:34: Well, since I've just listened to my talk about it, to pontificate about it, no, it's monergistic.
34:40: God sanctifies, God saves. God does everything. There's fruit that results. We're called to action.
34:46: Yes, but God is the one who sanctifies you have been sanctified. It's something he does on our behalf.
34:52: First Corinthians chapter six would be one example. So he's the author and perfecter of our faith.
34:58: Everything from A to Z is what God does. Okay. And Mike, why, why do you suppose it's such a difficult issue for theologians and pastors to get right?
35:09: If you're right, that it's monergistic. In church history, since reformation, most have taught that God alone is the sanctifier and we know
35:19: God alone regenerates, right? It's, it's a work of God alone. He has to do the work. So what about sanctification?
35:26: The problem comes, Steve, as you know, if we say sanctification is all of God, then
35:31: I somehow infer that I don't have to do anything. And what we're trying to say is the language of the
35:39: Bible and the theological concepts in the Bible are God is the one sanctifying. Even Jesus praise to the father, sanctify them in truth.
35:46: Father, would you do the sanctifying? First Thessalonians five about the sanctifying work of the Holy spirit. God sanctifies.
35:52: I mean, can you imagine to quote Pat Avendroth, you're not going to get up to heaven and fist bump God and say, we did it in justification, sanctification or glorification.
36:00: It's all the work of God. So God sanctifies and there is a response. The response is faith.
36:06: We believe it's true. We understand that it's happening, even though we can't see it. Mother, am
36:12: I growing? And she puts the little pencil thing above your head, three foot two. And I'm praying to be six, six.
36:18: I could be a point guard in the NBA and guard magic Johnson and all that. Didn't work out. Um, our response is faith.
36:26: And then our response is obedience and Holy living. And so what we're trying to say is sanctification is a word used of God.
36:32: And we respond, we reply with Holy living and again, work, sweat, toil, et cetera.
36:40: Uh, so sometimes don't you think it's just a, not always, but it's a verbiage mistake in our day, our default is when we say sanctification, we're talking about saying no to sin, loving our wives sacrificially, right?
36:56: And so that's why I don't go in and around correcting everybody who says it. But strictly speaking, when you read
37:01: John Owen, who is writing a lot about saying no to sin, killing it, and he writes a lot about obedience, a lot, he still says sanctification is
37:13: God's work alone because when you read sanctification passages, that's, what's happening.
37:18: God set us apart initially, and then now he's working in us, right?
37:24: And so we, Philippians two is true, but it doesn't teach synergistic. We are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling because the second part's the part where God does the work and we respond to his work.
37:35: So just like with regeneration of faith, which one comes first? Well, God regenerates and gives us faith and God's then sanctifies us.
37:42: And we respond with good works that he's prepared beforehand. And even that's by faith. Did you know God has prepared good work for you to walk into a
37:49: Christian? How do you know that? Because the Bible says it. So I walk by faith. Sanctification is also by faith.
37:58: Then hard work, but it doesn't mean we're passive in the Christian life.
38:04: Correct, right? We're just, we're just enabled to obey. God renews us.
38:10: He gives us the ability to do it because how could we ever say no to sin on our own? I'm good at polluting myself, but I can't, if I thought, okay, let's make it practical.
38:19: I'd like to, Kim's coming home in a couple of days. I'd like to love her more than I have in the past.
38:25: And I'm thinking, I can't wait to see her. And I want to express my love to her. And I want to, you know, here's what we're going to do now.
38:30: And I I'm ready to do all these things. Well, if I believe that God was the sanctifier, I'd probably say something like this.
38:37: Lord, I've had all kinds of resolutions to love my wife better throughout the years. Not many of them have worked.
38:43: Zero of them have worked. Would you please help me? Right. The person that knows that God is the sanctifier depends on God and his grace.
38:51: And then if I do everything, anything good toward her or someone else, then I could say, thank you for enabling me to do that.
38:57: So it both gives us the power and the thankfulness versus we're doing it together.
39:03: But the nomenclature of the world is we do it together. I'm not going to correct every person, but technically speaking, sanctification is modern.
39:10: So then this is helpful. I think then, therefore, if you see some.
39:17: Progress in your loving of Kim, what will you do when you're praying? You won't say,
39:22: God, thank you that I'm good at being sanctified myself. You'll say,
39:28: I thank you that I'm not like other husbands. I see. I'm at least I'm better than Pat. But it shows when you say,
39:35: Lord, thank you for helping me. I'm encouraged by the fruitfulness in my life. By you thanking him, you're acknowledging that you think
39:43: God is the sanctifier. It's kind of funny, like the Spurgeon address, the prayer that the
39:49: Armenian would never pray. Dear God, I came to faith by what
39:54: I did and kind of how you help me. Even Armenians know. Or if you have an unbeliever, a family member who's not saved, how do you pray for them?
40:02: You pray, Lord, save them. That's God alone. Save them.
40:07: And I think maybe that's the missing element in Christian. Holy living is forgetting that God is the sanctifier.
40:13: And what we ought to do is say, Lord, I really need your help to do this because it is hard to say no to self and yes to righteousness.
40:20: Help me. And I think that's a prayer God honors. Good. All right,
40:27: Pat, other than the Bible, what book has had the most impact on you in the last 10 years? Christless Christianity by Michael Horton without any question.
40:37: You want me to elaborate or? Yes. Okay. So I think what that book does is anybody read that book?
40:45: Christless Christianity. Super helpful because at a popular level, I think my court teaches law and gospel and the distinction why they're both important and why when you blur law and gospel, you have the law school and you ruin law.
41:00: God's strict requirement and you ruin gospel. God's gracious provision of salvation.
41:07: Both are vital. Both are important, but don't blur them because when you do, it's called legalism.
41:12: And I like what my court does in the book. He points out that a lot of people who are ranked legalists, we would never think of as legalists.
41:20: So when you listen to Joel Osteen with a million dollar smile, making everybody feel good.
41:25: And he's like, you know, isn't the Christian life wonderful and all this? I can't even try to imitate him, but I have met him before.
41:32: But that's another conversation. We had here one time anyway, all of the, I digress, but when he says, just follow these five principles and everything and God will bless your life and it's all these principles and steps and all this, those are just called.
41:47: Those are laws. That's just legalism, but you don't think it's legalism because it's legalism light with a million dollar smile or when
41:56: Oprah says, you know, it's, it's everything. Religion is so easy. All you have to do is love God and love your neighbor.
42:03: That's called the law and you're going to go to hell because you're not very good at that, Oprah, unless you turn to Christ. And so all of these celebrities that we think of as nice, kind, generous, gracious, moral teachers are actually ranked legalists because they're really just preaching law.
42:21: So it's life changing, super helpful. I think the introduction might be borrowed from barn house.
42:26: I can't remember now. I think it's this book where he talks about it. If he were the devil, if he were the devil, what he would do is have every church in Philadelphia, for example, full, no one's at the bar, no one's at the strip club, no one's at all.
42:42: Everybody's in church and they're, they're all hearing timeless truths to live by, uh, because they're not hearing the gospel and it just lulls people into a terrible sleep.
42:53: So really helpful, uh, encouraging, eyeopening, change my life in a good sense.
42:59: It's all Bible stuff, but we don't realize it. And Mike, what would you say last 10 years?
43:06: Most helpful book, most life changing book, eyeopening book. I think it'd be the whole
43:11: Christ by Sinclair Ferguson, making sure we understand that there's nothing prior to faith for an unbeliever, right?
43:21: We're not requiring them to do things or to change or to be better, but simply look to that snake that's on the tree by faith and making sure
43:31: I get the law gospel distinctions. And I think in the past I was more of a scolder when
43:36: I preached, I still want to be firm and earnest and confident in those things, but I don't want to scold.
43:42: I want to tell people, yes, I too, with you, I'm a sinner and Jesus died for the sins of Christians too.
43:49: And while we don't want to sin, we have a great sin bearer. And that, uh, I mean,
43:56: I used to think God was mad at me all the time. And I think I preached to the congregation, like God's mad at you and you don't measure up.
44:02: And then I see not my own life, but all your lives and none of us measure up. And I'm like, the way to get them to measure up is to get after them, scold them.
44:10: But that's not what motivates because law never motivates. It's like the GPS, right? It doesn't animate.
44:15: It doesn't get you there. What motivates it's the love of God in Christ Jesus. But for so long, I didn't want to talk about God's love because the
44:22: Joe Osteen's talked about it so much. I'm thinking, wait a second, they've overdone it. So my correction was to kind of take that away.
44:29: And the Merrill controversy with Sinclair Ferguson's discussion in the whole Christ. I've read it several times.
44:35: I've probably listened into it seven times. I met, I saw Sinclair at the shepherd's conference years ago and I said,
44:42: Dr. Ferguson, that's changed my life. It's changed my preaching. It's changed the way I live the Christian life. And he's the stoic, stoic
44:48: Scottish guy. And he held my hand and he said, thank you, you're welcome.
45:00: Because if I'm mad at you, guess what you think? God's mad at you. You're thinking that the demeanor of the preacher's demeanor of God, because he's speaking the words of God.
45:09: And while God chastens his believers, he doesn't punish them.
45:15: He doesn't condemn them because they're in Christ. That's happened at the cross already. And so we use the law to guide and we use the law to direct us, but not to condemn us any longer.
45:27: Okay. Well, in the last few minutes we have here, why don't you each just take a few minutes and just tell us, you know, what, maybe a couple of things that you've learned having been at your church for a long time and why that's been an advantage to you to be at the same church.
45:44: Most pastors are at a church for, I think the average is like three years. So, you know, how has it helped you?
45:53: I guess I won't say, how has it hurt you? I guess that's just like, it's harder to recycle sermons.
46:00: Didn't you just preach that two months ago, pastor? Uh, but, but how has it helped you?
46:07: So yes, same church since 98. I think it's been helpful for the selfish.
46:13: Let's go selfish first. Selfishly for, it's been good for my family because it's stable and it's always the same, so to speak.
46:22: So I'm grateful to the Lord and to the congregation that I've been able to be the same place. My kids have been able to see the same church and the same people.
46:31: So selfishly, it's been good for that. For my own heart, it's been good because when
46:38: Jenny hair, a member of our church, I'm good friends with Tim and Jenny, her husband as well.
46:45: When Jenny hair, who's had, I think 13 surgeries for cancer, uh, is on the stage and helping to sing, uh, and lead musical worship.
46:56: She's not just some blonde chick up there. You know, when you come in first, you're day one, you're like, well, they got some blonde lady up there helping to sing with the other blonde lady.
47:06: And the guy up there playing the drums and you know, who are they trying to put on a show? And I'm, I love
47:12: Tim and Jenny because I've been with them for all those years and watch the ups and the downs.
47:18: And if I kept going to different churches and sometimes the Lord needs you to do that or, or has you to do that,
47:24: I'm not trying to say the other's bad, but I so, I so love the people who are there because of what they've gone through because of loyalty to Christ and the gospel.
47:35: So good just to be with, with people. Um, so I just used her as one example, but I'm thankful for that.
47:46: And then the other side of it would be, I think it's been good for the church because it's been stable.
47:51: Oh, we got another new pastor. I wonder what, wonder what his hobby horses are. Got another new pastor. You know, it's just, it's been good for our church because it's been stable, even though I've changed a lot.
48:01: Well, I hope for good. Paul even tells Timothy that it should be evident that there's changes in your life as a young pastor because you're growing spiritually.
48:10: So it's been great, I think, for the church because we've changed a fair amount, but it's been positive.
48:17: It's been good. I'm, I'm thankful for that. And Mike.
48:25: Holy living takes a lot of time, right? There's all these illustrations about farming and you think about plants that grow and how slowly they grow.
48:33: I think pastors that only stick around for three or four years, they don't get the enjoyment of seeing their, their small
48:39: T the people grow and mature. Hopefully you've seen me grow over the years and I've seen you grow.
48:45: And it's such a pleasure because I think you're not the same person. I was talking to Andrew Smith earlier today, uh, with Pat and in my study,
48:53: I just said, Oh, I, Andrew came in as a college student. Didn't really know much about much. And, and, uh, then
48:59: God saves him. He works in his life and now he's in a preaching schedule. And I said, if I just had 10 more
49:04: Andrews and see, I get to watch that. I get to watch that in your lives. I regularly say when people ask me about the church,
49:10: I think of the Goddards when you got here and Nathan's what? I don't know, five months old or something tiny.
49:16: And then Nathan grows up and then Nathan professes Christ. And I, I think
49:22: I baptized him. I can't remember. I'm kind of like Paul. I don't remember who I baptized. I think I baptized him. He's in my preaching class.
49:29: He gets married and there's some kind of brain surgery and there'll probably be kids in the future.
49:34: And all of a sudden I got, I watched the part of me. Oh, it has been announced. Well, like a good pastor,
49:41: I know enough information to split the church 10 times. I think I knew that, but I didn't want to say it.
49:47: And I think I get to watch people as lives transformed. We're different.
49:53: You behold Christ and, and you change. And so that's one of the best things about being here a long time. I think the church gets to see progress is evident in the pastor, right?
50:02: Paul talks about that to Timothy. And then I get to see that in the congregation and it's just wonderful to watch.
50:08: We're not the same people that we used to be. God is transforming us from one level of glory to the next. So that's probably my favorite thing about being here long -term.
50:19: We need to close so that we can get to service, but let me pray.
50:27: Our father, we thank you not because of anything good in us, but because of everything that is good and comes from you that you have granted these men new life, long ministries,
50:44: Lord, we pray that you would continue to use them for many, many years to come. Lord, as we shift here from having fun, even while talking about theological issues to worshiping our triune
51:02: God, father, son, and spirit, would you grant us just joy, fellowship, thankfulness, and let our gratitude be exhibited in all that we do during this next bit of time.
51:17: Father, we thank you for sending the Lord Jesus Christ to rescue us from our sin, to live the perfect life, to die a substitutionary death and be raised victoriously on the third day.