A Defense of Cessationism part 7

Welcome to the truth and love podcast. Thank you for joining us again. We are continuing our series on a defense of cessationism.

This is part seven. Dan, what's going on?

How's it going? I'm doing well. How are you? I'm doing all right. I was digging that intro music. It is pretty nice.

I like the beat. And I just noticed something I didn't tell you while we were offline. Our streaming service that we use gives us more options.

There's a pause button up there. So if we need to pause, we can pause and we can start right back up.

Well, all right. Yeah, it's pretty great, right? It's also got a trash this button in case we really screw up, which is possible on my end.

All right. So we're back defending cessationism.

We we've primarily been with six 30 minute episodes in Corinthians.

We did a preamble to chapter 12, 13 and 14. We've been through 12, been through 13.

We're currently in chapter 14. I noticed something reading through 14 that that struck me and I wanted to share with you.

And then you can give us a little introduction to where we've been in 14.

I was looking at verses six and seven. And it made me think about some folks argument about we shouldn't we shouldn't have debates.

We shouldn't I don't know that.

Well, maybe people don't say that we shouldn't defend our position. Maybe they think we should argue our position.

But it seems like that's. Paul lays out his position. This is this is what you should do.

And then he makes an argument for it and gives examples of trying to make logic,

I guess, out of it. So it makes sense. I think it's what he does does here in verse six and seven.

But now, brethren, if I come to you speaking in tongues, what will I profit or what will

I profit you unless I speak to you either by a way of revelation or of knowledge or a prophecy or teaching, yet even lifeless things, either flute or harp in producing a sound, if they do not produce a distinction in the tones, how will it be known what is played on the flute or harp?

He's just he's taking an example from from nature or something that's natural, a creative thing that he calls lifeless.

And he uses as an example, even even those things we recognize as being part of a creative genius.

You know, God creates music. And when you can hit the right notes together, there's harmony.

Or when you play the right as he as he says, how how will you know to march when you hear the certain tune of bugle?

It's things are recognizable because there's organization and there's beauty to this creation that God has made.

And I just I find it fascinating his argument and how he's making logic out of all this.

And that's that's what we're trying to do is is glean from scripture what God is saying and make a defense using our minds, logic, reason.

All those beautiful things that God has created and given us. So it sounded pretty

Anglican over there. Oh, thank you. Anglicans speak of a three, a

I don't know if they call it threefold. They don't put them on the same level. But they talk about scripture, tradition and reason being their guiding force, obviously scripture being primary tradition, reason following afterwards.

But you're sounding kind of Anglican over there. I have some friends would be very pleased with you. Well, I'm glad I could honor them this evening.

Some people want to use natural law and or nature's law. And that's fine.

Paul even does that. But but scripture always comes first. Yep. Scripture always comes first.

And all these things are evidence, just like with archaeology, it's evidence of of what scripture already says.

And it kind of sounds like an argument that we pose back to a continuationist.

We spoke of it earlier before we started recording. You have your discussion or provide your arguments with a continuationist versus a cessationist.

And a continuationist will say, well, whatever revelation is given. It's got to match up with scripture, of course, you know, it's not going to go against scripture.

And then the the back argument to that is, well, why do you need it anyway? Why do you need that extra revelation?

If all that we need is contained in scripture. So it's.

And I'm starting to think that I didn't make a good argument there.

I'm not sure if I did or not. I contradicted myself, maybe. So verse 13, huh?

Verse 13. We'll work through it and try it again later.

That goes back to the preparation that we talked about that we needed more of. Right. I think we're in verse 13.

Sure, I think so. If not, we're right close to it. Yeah, we're close to it.

Therefore, let one who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret. For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.

What is the outcome then? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind. Also, I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also.

Otherwise, if you bless in the spirit only, how will the one who feels the place?

Feels the place of the ungifted say the amen and you're giving of thanks since he does not know what you are saying.

Well, you're giving thanks well enough, but the other person is not edified. I thank

God I speak in tongues more than you all. However, in the church of desire, I desire to speak five words with my mind so that I may instruct others also rather than 10 ,000 words in a tongue.

He's trying to get some guidance here. He's trying to get some guidance to a people who very well may have the gift of tongues.

All right, you have that gift, so what do you do with it? How do you think about it?

And he says, if you do have that gift, pray that you can interpret it also, that you can make sense of what you're saying.

Because if you don't know the language, you may find beauty in it.

You may even know that your spirit is testifying of the goodness and glory of God in a language that you don't understand.

But if you don't know what you're saying, it's not going to be very fruitful for you in your mind.

So I think what he's getting at there is you may feel better about it.

You may even be strengthened in your faith, but it won't help you think through the things of God any better because you're not understanding the substance of what's being said when this gift is being exercised.

So if you pray in tongues, pray that you know what you're saying, so that way you know what your spirit is praying to God.

If you're going to sing in tongues, make sure that you pray for interpretation so you know what glories you're giving to Christ.

If you're going to just talk in tongues, pray that you can say something so that way not only you can know what you're saying, but anybody else who hears you can know what you're saying as well.

They can say, amen, praise the Lord, this is good stuff, glory to God, so that way you can build up other people.

Because remember what he said earlier, desire the gifts that will show or that will edify the church the most.

That's what you want to do. So that's really what I think he's getting at here, is trying to show people who have the ability to speak in tongues, how do

I use it? What do I think about this gift? Since you've already said it comes down on the list, what of it then?

Is it good or not? What should I do? Well, it's a gift from God, of course. If you have the gift, use it.

But here's how. And I think this is a good time to explain why, at least

I believe, it's important that we went through these chapters in their entirety.

Because when you're not taking time, when you have time limits, you pull out verses that support your calls.

And so if you're a continuationist, you'll pull out these verses that say, here's the gifts, here's the gifts, and they're explaining the scripture, they're giving the scripture.

If you're a cessationist, here's why we believe this, here's this verse. But if you take it in its entirety, you get the whole context, and you don't fall into ditches.

And one of the ditches that I think we can fall into if we're on the continuationist side is failing to remember that Paul is writing to the

Corinthian church. He's described them as infants, as children. They're misusing.

They don't have an understanding on how to use these gifts. So what he is doing, he's sharing with them that these gifts exist, but here's, if in your maturity, this is what it should look like in the church.

And this is the example that you should follow. So that's a warning to us not to not to pull proof texts out of scripture without understanding it within its context of the chapter in its entirety or the book in its entirety.

Yeah, I preached through First Corinthians about four years ago. One thing that I noticed when

I was preaching through this book was that a lot of the passages that are more famous in First Corinthians, when you take them in their context,

I mean, they might say what you thought they said, but really that's not the main point of what's taking place there.

In First Corinthians especially, but also the rest of scripture, we need to make sure that we're not just drilling down so hard that we miss the forest for the trees.

Exactly. So there's no doubt, there's evidence that these gifts,

God gave them, the Spirit gave them, the Spirit uses them through people.

I mean, they're there and he speaks of them, but as we work through these chapters and these passages,

Paul is saying, here are the reins, here are the boundaries. Whoa, in this circumstance, whoa, it doesn't need to be a free for all.

Here's the limitations, here's the boundaries. Yeah, they need to chill a little bit.

Right, right. I mean, let's face it, the Corinthians did that with almost everything.

Yeah, exactly. So you ready to move on to the next few verses?

Yeah, these next few verses are going to take most of our time. Okay, starting in verse 20, brethren, do not be children in your thinking, yet in evil be infants, but in your thinking be mature.

In the law it is written by men of strange tongues and by the lips of strangers, I will speak to this people and even so they will not listen to me, says the

Lord. So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe, but to the unbelievers.

The prophecy is for a sign, not to unbelievers, but to those who believe. Therefore, if the whole church assembles together and all speak in tongues and ungifted men or or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad?

But if all prophesy and unbelievers or an ungifted man enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all, the secrets of his heart are disclosed, and so he will fall on his face and worship

God, declaring that God is certainly among you. A little out there.

Yeah. All right, let's try to break it down. He's trying to tell these these folks, he calls them brothers, so he's trying, he's trying to put this in the best possible light.

He's trying to say, fellow believers, brothers in Christ, those who have been adopted by God, at least that's what

I'm going to call you until you prove me otherwise, like the dude back in chapter five, or I think it was five.

He said, don't be children in your thinking. So when it comes to thinking through the scriptures, put on your thinking caps, do the hard work, become better and better at thinking through scripture.

So that way you actually understand what God is saying. In evil, be an infant.

Think of like a video game. You're able to think of like one of the football games or the baseball games or something.

You're able to create your own player. If you're able to create your own Christian player, give yourself the 99 % on your thinking.

Go ahead and just cycle down all the way to zero on your evil. Take the points that you could put there, put it somewhere else.

You know, one of the gifts of the spirit or something like that. But in your thinking, be mature.

So he's trying to say, let's grow up here. Let's figure this out. The way I thought about that when he said, in evil, be infants,

I was thinking about infants and they're going to do things unknowingly. They're not able to really differentiate between good and evil.

And so when you, we're not, we're not immune to committing evil because we're, we're still in this

Adamic sinful world. But let it be an accident. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah. Yeah, no. Yeah. I get that. Yep. I agree. So he sends them back into the old

Testament and says in the law, it is written by people of strange tongues and by the lips of foreigners, will

I speak to these people? And even then they will not listen to me, says the Lord. So who's the, this people who are the, you know, what's happening there?

Well, this, this is written back in the book of Isaiah. It's in Isaiah chapter 28.

In Isaiah 28, it's talking about, it's a judgment on, it says

Ephraim and Jerusalem. So it's a, the people of God, those who call themselves the children of Israel and Jerusalem specifically, it's a little thing.

It's a synecdoche. Synecdoche means you say something small and it means the whole.

So like people get upset at, at an upstate in New York, you say that Albany did this again.

Well, no, it's the whole state that's, that's under, under the, the ridiculousness that our governors put us under at whatever it is at that particular point in time.

Same thing here. You point at Jerusalem, you're pointing at the whole of Israel. You know, it would be Israel, Judah, it's the, it's the people within that section.

So those who are called like that, and it's, it's a judgment on them. In verse five, for instance, it says in that day, and it's talking about a day of judgment.

In that day, the Lord of hosts will be, will be a crown of glory, a diadem of beauty to the remnant of his people and a spirit of justice to him who sits in judgment, strength to those who turn back the battle at the gate.

So what is, what is he saying? It's talking about Jesus. When Jesus comes, he's going to be crowned with the crown of glory.

He's going to be beautiful to his people. The spirit of justice is going to come with Christ. He's going to have sin put down.

He's going to, uh, going to create a victory, a gospel, the, the, the message of the

Lord coming that Christ has dealt with sin. Sin is no more. And here is the king who's going to be ascended and seated at the right hand of the father in heaven.

What happens then? Speaking about, uh, the people of Jerusalem says these that reel with wine, stagger with strong drink, the priest, the prophet, uh, he moves on for all tables are filthy or full of filthy vomit with no space left.

Like they've, they're, they're so drunk with whatever they're doing that they have vomited all over the table.

There's not a clean space on it. It's just disgusting. They're filthy in the sight of God. And how filthy are they?

I mean, if it's so filthy that you vomited all over the table and not just all over the table, but you can't find a spot to set your beer down.

You've, you've, you've gone too far. It's a step too far. Uh, verse nine, uh, to whom will he teach knowledge and to whom will he explain the message?

So who is God going to tell of the greatness of the one who is seated on the throne of heaven?

The one who has provided salvation for mankind? Is he going to do it for those who are sitting at the vomit covered table?

Those who are infants and they're thinking it goes here to who will he teach knowledge and to whom will he explain the message?

Those who are weaned from the milk, those who are just taken from the breast. Those who are just barely eating some food.

No. And think back because he's talking about the same thing in first Corinthians. He's talking about, I want you to be mature in your thinking.

No, this is a salvation thing. Now I'm not saying that your idea of tongues is a salvation issue.

That's not what he's getting at. What he's saying is that salvation is at stake here because this is part of the purpose of these gifts.

So back in Isaiah verse 10 says, for it is precept upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, there a little.

And in Hebrew, that Hebrew, it's got this, uh, what do they call it?

Monosyllabic, a little, it sounds like baby chatter. It just puts a whole bunch together.

It sounds like baby talk. He's it's one of those times in first Corinthians where he's probably probably mocking somebody and he took it from Isaiah, you know, basically mocking a people who are too drunk to find a place to set their beer down on a table that they've puked all over.

Right. Um, and so he's, he's passing judgment on the people who are full of their sin.

And he says this in verse 11 for by a people of strange lips.

Now this comes from first Corinthians as well as quoted in first Corinthians. And with a foreign tongue, the

Lord will speak to this people to whom he has said, this is rest, give rest to the weary and this is repose.

Now what is that? He's spoken to a people. This is the gospel. This is our rest.

And what, what, what is the people love to say when they don't want to keep the Sabbath day? Say Christ is my rest.

Yes, ultimately, but you still need to keep the Sabbath day. Anyway, we'll talk about that later. Christ is going to be our ultimate rest.

We find our rest in him. Our peace from, from all sin is found in him. All the evil and wicked in the world, it can only be taken away and found in Christ.

That's the peace that's found here. Salvation of Jesus Christ. He's going, but he's going to speak to those people with strange lips and foreign tongue.

The same ones that he's told the gospel to, and yet they would not hear. So these people have heard the gospel.

They know who God is. They've been told what the gospel is, and yet they would not listen to it.

They wouldn't turn from their sin like a dog that kept returning to their own vomit. And the word of the

Lord to them will be, and here's the baby babble again. It's like it's nonsense talk.

Precept upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, there a little.

And what's the purpose of him talking to them like this? What's the purpose of them, that those things falling on their ears, that they may go away, fall backward, be broken and snared and taken.

It's not a good sign. It's not something positive. And so when you come back into first Corinthians, he tells you, be infants in evil.

Don't be like the drunk guy in Isaiah who's puked all over his table and can't find a place to set his beard down.

Be mature in your thinking. Trust in the gospel of Jesus Christ because it is written there's going to be a people who are going to hear tongues.

And the purpose of this gift of tongues to the church is to show those who will not turn from their sin, that there is a message that has been given to you that you have treated as if it was gibberish and gobbledygook foolishness to the

Greek and no heresy to the Jew. Thus tongues, and then it says in verse 22, thus tongues are a sign, not for believers, but from believers.

And just to set a pause right there, I don't want you to lose your train of thought. Not the pause up here.

Right. In your mind. Kind of what you said there towards the beginning, you said this is not a salvation, tongues are not a salvation issue.

It kind of drifts toward that direction in this conversation.

But what we were talking about earlier was that no, it's an evidence or an indicator to show who is not.

Sure. And it's not those in modern times, tongues are used as an evidence of salvation.

Right. But what are we saying here? Tongues are what? Tongues are the fulfillment of a prophecy from God to a people, namely the

Jewish people who were under the old covenant, that them not believing in the gospel is going to end in their destruction.

That them not trusting that Christ is their rest, where it says, this is rest, give rest to the weary, and this is repose.

They don't believe the message of the gospel of Jesus Christ when they reject him, their fate is sealed.

And it's sealed with the fulfillment of this prophecy that tongues will be spoken to them.

So that's what he's getting at. That's the purpose of this gift. Yeah. They're not going to listen.

Right. They're not going to listen. And even if it was spoken in a different language, they're not going to listen.

Right. Gotcha. So it's tough. Yeah. Because it's definitely something that, because Paul says earlier that the people who are speaking in tongues, who are exercising the gift are actually, they're glorifying

God in their spirit. So it's not like they're saying horrible, nasty, wicked things. They're glorifying

God in their spirit. Right. But the purpose of them glorifying God in their spirit in a different language isn't necessarily for their edification.

It's for a sign against those who don't believe. Right. And you may be able to answer this now.

It would be something that I would need to think on more and do some more research on. But you're right.

Paul does point us in that direction that you're glorifying God in your spirit. That's what these gifts are for.

But the question is, how do we know that they are from the

Holy Spirit and not from a different spirit?

I was thinking about this too. A lot of the folks that are continuationists on that side also believe in the doctrine that you can lose your salvation.

And if you can lose your salvation, if that is true, then you can be influenced or oppressed, possessed by a different spirit.

So how can you trust what's going on if somebody can lose their salvation?

How can you know that it's from the spirit? Because a lot of times in modern days, we don't require interpretation.

I mean, that would be one way to do it, but a lot of times it's not required. Well, in verse 13, it says, therefore, one who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret.

And why? Down in verse 16.

Otherwise, so if you don't know what they're saying, if you give thanks with your spirit, how can anyone in the position of an outsider say amen to your thanksgiving when he does not know what you're saying?

It goes on several other places. Now, I wish I would rather speak five words so I can instruct others.

The gift of interpretation is very important to the gift of tongues, because if you never know what you're saying, you could follow it.

Well, I'll put it this way. I think that the gift of tongues being a gift from God for a specific purpose could have a counterfeit from a demonic source.

But that's also why interpretation is something that's also pressed very hard, especially in this chapter.

But even if you don't have interpretation every single time, you should have an interpretation, at least something.

I would say this, if you've heard people speaking in tongues your whole life and never once heard an interpretation,

I'd be nervous. Because an interpretation of what you're saying is kind of important.

How do you know that you're not being led away by your own emotions and thinking that you're speaking another language?

But the people on the day of Pentecost heard everything in their own language. Paul tells them to have an interpreter in certain places or in the church to be quiet, to not let it go somewhere else.

I was going to say that as well. Paul was pretty strong there. And I think Paul kind of answers my question here in what you were explaining, how you're explaining it.

He says, keep silent. He also says, don't forbid the speaking in tongues down towards the end of this chapter.

So he says, don't forbid speaking in tongues. But if somebody's going to stand up and speak in tongues in your service, they have to have an interpreter.

And if they don't, I'm sorry for our audio -only listeners.

That's exactly right. And that's how it will be confirmed.

Right, right. So the purpose here, the reason why he moves on in the passage says, while prophecy, let me back up, tongues are assigned not for believers, but for unbelievers.

Even though the thing being spoken is something that's glorifying God, the fact that it's being spoken of in an unknown language is a condemnation on those who don't believe.

While prophecy is assigned not for unbelievers, but for believers.

So a word spoken that you do understand is a gift to believers.

It's for them, it's for their edification, for their building up. If therefore the whole church comes together and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are out of your minds?

So somebody comes in and everybody's speaking in tongues, and there's no interpretation.

It's assigned to those people that they do not believe. But here's the thing, if you have an interpreter, it seems to me the way that everything's been flowing throughout this, that if tongues are interpreted, really they become prophecy.

It's a word of prophecies. So while tongues is a gift that's used to show there are those who do not believe and don't trust in the gospel, it also says this, but if all prophesy, which

I would include in that someone who has had tongues and an interpretation, but if all prophesy on unbeliever and outsider enters, he is convicted by all.

He is called to account by all. The secrets of his heart are disclosed. And so falling on his face, he will worship

God and declare that God is really among you. So when we say that tongues and prophecy are a sign gift, we say that they're assigned because of this language here.

It's a sign for believers, it's a sign for unbelievers. Tongues uninterpreted is a sign to those who don't believe that they don't believe.

It's a confirmation that the gospel has come and you have missed it. And it seems to have been given to especially the

Jewish people through the prophet Isaiah. So this has been given in order to show them, hey, your

Christ has come. Your Christ has given you rest. You've rejected that rest.

It doesn't matter what language I speak to you in, you're going to reject that rest. And this has been foretold by the prophets hundreds of years prior.

Whereas you hear the prophecy of the same thing, of the conviction of sin, the forgiveness of sin in Jesus Christ, how he laid in the grave for three days, taking your sin upon himself, putting himself on the cross, going into the grave, laying there, rising up again.

You hear a prophecy of those things. You hear people glorifying God, speaking of the message of that gospel.

Then people fall on their face, they find Christ and they are forgiven. So the prophecy then is a gift to the believer.

It's, you're really seeing God's work in action because God is pronouncing judgment and blessing at the same time, especially through the gift of tongues.

Because he's pronounced it through the one who's speaking wonderful, glorious things about Christ to the one who doesn't believe that's a sign that they've missed the gospel and they've rejected it.

Got you. Let me ask you this question as we close and we can start right back up with the next episode.

So we need, I guess, to flip over because this is not really helping us.

I think you mentioned in the last episode, you felt like in chapter 14, Paul kind of leads to a cessationist type attitude.

And I'm looking forward to you sharing that with us. Well, it comes somewhat from this passage in Isaiah that he just quoted.

Okay. Hold on to that and explain it to us in the next one.

Cliffhanger. I don't know. Yeah. Cause I want to ask this question because we need to flip over to, because we're doing a defensive cessationism.

And so, and we've talked about before how the Holy Spirit has always moved, always will move.

And this era, this time period, there was a spike because the divinity had come and dwelt among us.

So there was an obvious spike in the work of the

Spirit, the gifts of the Spirit. But we've decided or way we understand scripture is that it's not normative beyond that, post that.

And so, this was for the Corinthian church, the first century church.

And when we speak as a cessationist, I don't want us to be misunderstood that these are the things that we should be looking for in our local churches.

And so, is there an equivalent because Paul was speaking to them.

This is a sign for unbelievers. This is a sign for believers to know who you're dealing with, an unbeliever or a believer.

So, is there an equivalent to the 21st century church for this particular edification or commendation from Paul to know who you're dealing with?

No, someone's a believer. Well, I don't know if it's a sign to anyone outside of who is receiving the sign, if that makes sense.

So, I don't know if it's a sign for us to recognize other folks so much as it is a sign to them that you're an unbeliever or you have fallen on your face before holy

God. So, you're a believer. Okay. So, it's more for me and who

I am before God. If I'm in the first century, if I'm in Corinthian.

For the one who's hearing. Yeah. For the one who's hearing tongues and rejects the gospel to them, that is a judgment upon them for the rejection of the gospel.

Gotcha. It's a proof that the gospel has come and that they have rejected it. Gotcha. Gotcha. Yeah.

So, really, I think it would have more to do with the changing from the old covenant to the new covenant.

Okay. Which is why I think that this sort of leads into a cessationist argument, especially when you deal with what

Peter says and acts. But like you said, cliffhanger.

There you go. Yeah, we'll hold on to that because I really feel like a more equivalent to us, a sign for me that I'm a believer or that I'm an unbeliever is going to come from a different place today.

Well, I tell you what, if you take the Lord's supper unworthily, there's some sign there.

Yeah. Signs of even death. Yeah. Yeah. And so, we want to leave you with the gospel.

We pray and hope that the Lord will use this. We are not seasoned genius theologians.

We're just brothers in Christ who want to share the gospel. Sharpen one another. We want to be sharpened by others.

And we want to share with you what we see in scripture. And as Dan was beautifully speaking earlier about the gospel of Christ and how it was proclaimed to the

Corinthians and those who would receive and those who would reject, that message carries on.

That message is still relevant. That message is still beautiful and glorious today.

And it will be until the consummation of all things. And God brings an end to all these things, brings an end to this sinful world.

But while there is still opportunity, we proclaim the gospel that Jesus, God himself, left his throne, became man, fully

God, fully man, lived a sinless life, obeying all the law, submitting to the

Father fully and completely and perfectly, where we couldn't because we couldn't.

And we never could. We would always be hopeless and helpless, except God sent his one and only

Son, that everyone believing in him would not perish but have everlasting life.

And we would call out to you to respond to that message in repentance and faith, turning from your sins and turning to faith in Jesus Christ.

Dan, would you mind to close us in prayer? Sure. Dear Heavenly Father, thank you for today, for looking into your word.

Thank you for your gifts and for the Holy Spirit's use of them in us to show

God's own glory. In Christ's name we pray. Amen. Amen. Thank you for listening and watching to the

Truth in Love podcast. We look forward to being with you again and hearing from you.

Let us know that you watched, ask a question, give us a critique. We look forward to it. And as always, remember that Jesus is