August 9, 2018 Show with Dr. J. V. Fesko on “Romans”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania it's iron sharpens iron a radio platform on which pastors Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage quote we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and Directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour. And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions. Now here's our host Chris Arnton.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania. Lake City, Florida. And the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth. Or listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron radio .com. This is Chris Arnton your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Thursday on this ninth day of August 2018.

I'm so delighted to have today as a returning guest. Dr. J V Fesco. He is an author academic dean and professor of systematic theology and historic Theology or historical theology at Westminster Seminary in California.

And today we are going to be addressing his new commentary on the book of Romans. And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens iron radio. Dr. J V Fesco. Before we even go into the subject at hand, why don't you tell our listeners something about Westminster Seminary in California?

Westminster Seminary California and Historical Theology

Now we are I think one of the only if I think the only reformed confessional seminary on the west coast and really at this stage with the establishment of the new IRBS Institute for Reform Baptist Seminary in Fort Worth now, we're the only one west of Dallas Fort Worth and.

We've got about a hundred and twenty five hundred and thirty students and we've got a faculty of 13. Which means that if you're looking for a seminary education where you can get a lot of one-on-one time with your professors I think that that's certainly then reason for you to check out Westminster Seminary, California.

Great. And Why don't you let our listeners something know something about the Orthodox Presbyterian Church denomination of which you are a minister?

Yeah.

Presbyterian Church was started by J. Gresham Machen And it was founded in the 1920s and it was in response to the fact that he had been defrocked By the Presbyterian Church in the US because he started the independent mission board.

And the reason that he did so is that one of their famous missionaries a woman by the name of Pearl Buck Had written a book called the good earth and among the things that she says in that book was essentially that Denying the need for the gospel and so they can ask the question Hey, why on earth are we sending missionaries out if they're not promoting and propagating the gospel?

And so lo and behold the Orthodox Presbyterian Church after a number of things was founded and Since then it's been in existence For some 85 plus years and so it's it's a fantastic church. I love it. It's the perfect imperfect church Where there's no sin free church, but I think it's certainly, you know, one of the best I'm honored to be a part of it.

Amen.

Well, I do have quite a number of friends who are ministers and members of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church. In fact, you're going to be hearing an ad during the show by my dear friend. Pastor Bill Shishko.

I wonder if you recognize that name, but Bill is now host. He is now hosting A program weekly has been for quite a while now Called a visit to the pastor study. It's heard every Saturday from 12 noon to 1 p .m. Eastern Time on WLIE 540 a .m. Dot-com on the internet and also You can hear it on the 540 a .m. Dial in the New York tri-state area and even parts of Pennsylvania Rhode Island and Massachusetts during that time 12 noon to 1 p .m. Eastern Time, but You are as I mentioned when I was announcing you you have two different courses that you teach there at Westminster Seminary and one of them is Systematic theology and one of them is historical theology if you could Differentiate and describe and compare and contrast these two different fields of theology.

Systematic Theology and Historical Theology

Well systematic theology is the systematic discussion and or exposition of the various doctrines that you find in the Bible and it usually Consists of the what they call the loci or the places is what that term translates to.

The places are the common doctrines of you begin with the doctrine of God and the use often a subset of that is the doctrine of Scripture or sometimes some people put it in under the things and then the doctrine of God and then after the doctrine of God you've got the doctrine of man or anthropology and then you have doctrine of Christ and then from the doctrine of Christ you have the doctrine of Soteriology or salvation and then from that you get the doctrine of Ecclesiology and then after the doctrine of the church and then after that you get eschatology of the doctrine of last things and so it's the systematic explanation of these various Doctrines throughout the scriptures and not only what the scriptures have to say about them, but how they all interrelate.

By contrast historical theology is the study of the historical views that people have held throughout. You know church history, so for example this fall I'm teaching a course on union with Christ, but I'm not teaching the doctrine per se.

That I would go and elaborate say in a class on systematic theology. But rather it's a book that we're going to cover the book John Owens book union and communion with the triune God. So we're going to be studying what he has to say about these things and so as such.

Theology so in short you could say systematic theology is the orderly treatment of the doctrines of the Bible whereas Historical theology is studying what people have historically said about.

Those doctrines or about the Bible now when you're going to be discussing Owen. Are you going to be breaking him down so your your average layman in the 21st century can understand? What he's saying and I hate to use the term layman, but that's what we're left with to differentiate people who are in the pastoral ministry or Differentiate scholars from your average Christian, but if you could.

Yeah, I think that's one of the things we're going to be using you know the crossways edition of his book. Which has gotten a helpful little footnotes for some of the more difficult words. Or at least the more archaic words that he uses and then we're going to be taking it kind of section by section now because It's a seminary class.

We're going to be looking at it say 75 pages per week so the students are going to have to read those 75 pages. But then we'll discuss each one of those sections as we go through it. And then obviously we're going to I'm going to lecture about it for about an hour and then after that give the students ample time for An hour worth of questions and discussion just to make sure that they get all of their and so we're looking forward to it.

In fact, I've had a number of auditors in this class that are not Seminary students. Some of them are seminary wives. Some of them are folks from the community. And so yeah, this is something that I'm going to try to make it equally accessible for all whether they're seminarians or.

Non-seminarians. Now, what would the role of an auditor be in such a class? I've never heard that term involving a seminary.

It depends. Sometimes it just means that they're going to listen and you know, that's what it technically From means to listen, but in this class because I want to mix it up a little bit We're gonna say sure you can do more than listen.

You can ask questions and contribute to the discussion. Because when you spend an hour discussing Sometimes The students can be a little bit shy and so it comes. And what have you. So yeah. So it's an auditor.

They can you know, take the class listen. They can just listen if they want or They can participate but the better gets to do is they don't have to take any tests or turn in any paper.

Well, I could tell you it's the first time I've heard the term auditor used when I didn't break out in a cold sweat so I Want to read a couple of endorsements for the commentary we are going to be discussing today.

Dr. JV Fesco's commentary on the book of Romans. First of all, we have Nancy Guthrie who is a Bible teacher and author. She says this clear and accessible commentary helps to take away the intimidation factor and seeking to faithfully Understand and teach the book of Romans as a capable guide through this important book.

Dr Fesco looks back to bring in needed Old Testament context for Paul's argument while also looking forward to Bring out the eschatological nature of Paul's hope and we have Kim riddle Barger who's been on this program.

It's been a while and this is a reminder for me to invite Kim back on the show. He is senior pastor of Christ Reformed Church in Anaheim, California Which is in the United Reformed Church of North America denomination, he's also co-host of the White Horse and along with Michael Horton and he says JV Fesco's contribution to the lectio continua.

Expository commentary on the New Testament is a welcome addition to this series. Fesco tackles the thorny issues in Paul's epistle to the Romans with scholarly rigor. Yet his treatment is nicely seasoned with pastoral wisdom.

Romans is a book meant to be preached studied and read by the people of God. May Fesco's contribution help God's people to do just that. Then finally another Brother that I have not interviewed in quite a long time that I've got to get back on the program guy Prentice waters the James and beard Jr. Professor of New Testament at Reformed Theological Seminary in Jackson, Mississippi.

He writes for many reasons. Romans is an intimidating book for pastors to preach. In this latest lectio continua contribution Fesco shows us how to explain and to apply with confidence this magisterial letter to the contemporary church.

Fesco's Romans models thoughtful exegesis sound doctrine and relevant application. I heartily recommend this book to anyone who wants to understand this epistle better. By the way, I just want to make an announcement just to make sure that I don't forget to announce it later our sponsors of Cumberland Valley Bible book service CVBBS .com.

Have marked down the price of this commentary by dr. Fesco from $40 to $27 .99. So if you do not win this commentary today Keep in mind that you could purchase it or even if you do win it you want to buy extra copies.

You could go to CVBBS .com and get it for a lot Lower price than you would normally get at retail $40 down to $27 .99. We thank Todd and Patty Jennings for providing this kind discount generous discount to our our listeners.

I'm gonna give our email address right away. So our listeners can write in questions if they have them on the book of Romans. Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence. If you live outside of the good old USA, please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Let's say you disagree with your own pastor on his interpretation of many of Paul's teachings in the book of Romans. Or perhaps you are a pastor and you disagree with your own congregation or your denomination or fellowship or association.

Then you may write in anonymously, but if you are just asking a general question. Please give us at least your first name city and state and country of residence. Now. Let me ask you before we move on This as you know, and even according to some of the endorsers of your book.

This book has been described as a part of a series that Reformation heritage books is involved in publishing. If you could tell something tell us something about this series and what you are aware of in regard to how many Books of the Bible they have already in print and it is and you can maybe begin by defining Lectio.

Continua.

Lectio Continua and the Romans Commentary Series

Yeah, Lectio continua is a tradition. That was really kind of, you know, extra 16th century Reformation after for a number of centuries large portions of the church had devolved into preaching from sometimes lectionaries where they had pre-written sermons that others had read or that others had written and the idea is is that Lectio continua means Continual reading and so what this means is that the reformers rather than preaching these Pre-canned messages if you will or using other methods or just you know of preaching from other things other passages of the Bible kind of Just a hodgepodge.

They would start with the beginning of the book of the Bible and then preach through it You know verse by verse chapter by chapter until they completed Until they completed the book in its entirety. And so a lot of the times you see this In Calvin Calvin, for example in Geneva Preached through Romans.

He preached through Acts. He preached through Genesis and you can buy his his sermons on these Various books of the Bible like I know that Banner of Truth has put out additions of some of his Genesis sermons as well as his sermons on Acts in fact he would preach through the New Testament books in the morning and then Old Testament books in the evening and So, you know, this is the idea that this way people in the church would not just have a Very surface or a very thin understanding of the Bible because it was collected You know hither and thither and yon, but rather it was would be a holistic understanding of the Bible because they would hear books of the Bible preached in their entirety and You know There are a number of benefits to this in the sense that you know so often it can be the case whether in the Middle Ages or whatever even in the present day that Preachers have hobby horses and they will only preach certain passages or certain doctrines.

Whereas this way when you preach Lectio Continuo verse by verse and chapter by chapter there's a sense in which God sets the preaching agenda for the church and that you end up having to preach on whatever happens to Come up in the passage and if you ignore it or you skip over it, it's it's pretty evident.

When that happens people in the church begin to wonder hey, why did you skip over this? So I think it's got a lot of things to commend it and it's you know A way that it's a conviction that I've used at least certainly when I was in the past way To professor now that I do a lot of pulpit supply I still try to do it as much as I'm able but I'm the only one that benefits from it really.

Because I get to hear all of the messages, you know in order whereas different churches hear different different passages as I preach from them when I'm doing pulpit supply, but as far as the the books in this particular commentary series There are came out have come out already.

I I was the contributor for the first one and I you know Did a volume on Galatians and then after that there Kim riddle Barger has written on 1st Corinthians Ian Hamilton has published Ephesians Joel Beakey has done Revelation and David McWilliams has done Hebrews and the plan is of course to have the whole of the the New Testament.

Receiving a volume on each section of the New Testament or each book of the New Testament with a couple of combined volumes I can't remember exactly how they're going to Package. I think it may be like one volume on the past example.

But you know, it's and it's hopefully it would prove to be a good resource for the you know. Understanding having a better understanding of the doctrine letters, but also I think one of the hallmarks of rigorous application.

You know, you not only reflect upon the doctrine the authors do their best to Christian life. What does it look like understand benefit and live out the truth that we find in the scriptures?

Well, it's interesting that you had the privilege of writing commentaries on the two books that and perhaps you can correct me if you think I'm wrong, but the two books of the scriptures that seem to be.

The primary books the God-breathed books of Scripture upon which the Reformation hinges the Romans and Galatians.

Yeah, these I think those two books were certainly, you know the you know the flashpoints the exegetical flashpoints of controversy between the Protestant Reformers and and Rome and so yeah, it was Contacted and they said would you be willing to do Romans and Galatians?

Like yeah, sure. That'd be fantastic. I mean, I don't know if The comparison is horrible. So please excuse the comparison, but I'm a peasant and it's the only thing that I know in that. It's almost like somebody saying would you like to direct a Star Wars movie?

I'd be like.

That would be the book of Revelation wouldn't.

Dragons and whatnot, so I mean it was just you know. It's just amazing in a sense in which it was a little bit Frightening for me because you know if I write in the preface, you know. You almost feel a bit of fear in like other approaching the ark.

Of course other didn't feel that fear he went and touched it but you know this has been one of the most significant books of the Bible in the history of the church and Goodness gracious, you know, what am I doing writing on it?

And I hope I can do a sufficient job to not only be faithful to the text But also so that I can you know produce something that is edifying.

To the church and glorifying to God. Well as I may have felt at least one second of fear after he touched the ark. We have some listeners who have written in questions for you. We have a first-time questioner.

Brandon from Littleton, Colorado. Brandon writes in as someone relatively new to reformed apologetics. Let's see. I already skipped over some of his sentences here. Sorry about that. As someone relatively new to reformed apologetics I quickly fell in love with Van Till and his method coming from a non reformed approach to apologetics.

It was a breath of fresh air to read someone who understood the way sin affects our apologetics. Approach around the same time. I was reading Scott Oliphant who is for our listeners. You don't know Scott.

He is a professor at Westminster in Philadelphia. Who championed Van Till? Reading these two. I thought this was the reformed approach. I'm sure you address this. But how does Van Till Oliphant and others make this case?

Are they picking and choosing who they quote and of course, this is a little bit off the subject Of the book of Romans, but be since he is a first-time questioner. And you have written on apologetics already on a separate volume so do you care to.

Attempt to answer our listeners question here.

Sure. No and what I can do it connected to Romans because there is a lot of material in the whole Bible that deals Defending of the faith, but in particular I think historically Romans has featured quite prominently in that I think that you know historically Reformed theologians have appealed to a number of statements in Romans chapter 1 and 2 where Paul outlines the the sinfulness of Fallen human beings and you see that of course quite prominently beginning in Romans chapter 1 verse 18 where he talks about the wrath of God being revealed against all unrighteousness and He spells out the sinfulness of the Gentiles the sinfulness of the Jews and then wrapping it up in Romans chapter 3.

Really kind of in a comprehensive way to talk about the sinfulness of all of all human beings. But there are you know two important I think Observations and all of this is that first of all, you know Both I think van Til and the historic reform tradition would say that Romans 1 testifies to the universal Accountability that all human beings have to God in that they know who God is.

Because the things of this created world Clearly reveal now, this is not saving knowledge. This is not the knowledge of the gospel. But rather this is the knowledge that the creation reveals and it's revealed in two primary ways according to Paul.

First of all, it's revealed through the creation itself the creation testifies and psalm 19 For example talks about these things of the creation Shouting forth if you will the existence of God through his handiwork, but then secondarily.

You find this in terms of the law of God that that he has implanted or written upon our hearts in Romans chapter 2 and It's usually in verses 14 and 15. Where the Apostle you know the Gentiles so those who are do not have the law.

That is the Torah the revealed law there at tradition has believers human beings are inexcusable. They all know God therefore. They can't claim. Hey, I didn't know. And moreover in the Apostle Paul, for example even says in Romans 2 14 15 that their consciences Accused and excused their conduct so that they even can discern right from wrong.

And that God has done this by virtue of the fact that they are created in the image of God. And I think then till picks up on this but where there's an unnecessary conflict between van Til and the historic reform tradition.

Is that they until the the way that reform theologians would talk about this is under the category of what they call common notions the common knowledge that all people share by virtue of their creation in the image of God and.

So van Til on the one hand rejects the appeal to common notions. Because he thought that it was a Roman Catholic idea. You know you find Thomas Aquinas talking about it Herman bobbing for example appeal to Aquinas.

Who had talked about it and he said no we have to get rid of this. This is a Roman Catholic idea. Yeah, and instead of this we have to appeal to people on the basis of their identity as covenant breakers.

And as the and in terms of the image of God and I want to say yeah. Yeah, that's that's right. That's exactly what the historic reform tradition has said. So I think at times what van Til is doing is that I think he mistakenly Criticizes the historic reform tradition when he need not do so.

And so in that sense the historic reform tradition in van Til despite van Til's Protestations they actually agree on that that this is the way that we can approach Human beings or fallen human beings is that we can say yeah, you know God you can see his handiwork in the creation moreover.

You know right from wrong and this begins this gives us what some theologians called the point of contact with the unbeliever. And so there are many things that we share in common. But what Paul eventually gets to and he's in especially in Chapter 3 verses 21 and following is that whatever we may hold in common with the unbeliever.

Say in terms of the knowledge of God the law written upon our hearts is that there is there comes that conflict the antithesis that van Til was always so Eager to press and rightly so in terms of pressing the antithesis against unbelief and confronting the unbeliever by showing him or her his sinfulness and Recognizing that there is absolutely no other way no other means by which Paul lays that out.

So I think that you know what van Til does at some points is he presses that antithesis very well in matters of Soteriology and matters of salvation, but sometimes I think he presses it too far. When it comes to matters related to the things that we have in common with the unbeliever.

So, you know, I think at some points I there's you know I've got a book coming out in in May or sorry March of next year. Where I talk in great detail about all of these things. In fact, I was reading the the galley proof, you know going through some of these things.

And so I would I would leave my fuller answer to that. What's the title of it? It's called reforming apologetics. And it's up on you know. You could look for it up on Amazon and the subtitle if I can remember the subtitle exactly.

It's called recovering a retreating classic reform theology for defending the faith. Great and so I'm hopeful that basically kind of re-familiarizing ourselves with the the classic our confessional reform theology on these matters and showing at some places where van Til needlessly distanced us from that tradition and hopefully showing where there's a there's agreements between what van Til was trying to in the historic reform tradition and Going forward to to use this classic teaching in the defense of the faith.

Yes, I have seen amongst reformed writers a stark contrast with With one another on the issue of Thomas Aquinas. There are some who welcome him as a great Teacher and father of the faith. I know that the late dr. R. C. Sproul Gleaned much from Thomas Aquinas, but I also know of others who are very very adamantly opposed to us Gleaning or attempting to glean anything from Aquinas.

So yeah, are you going to be talking about that in much detail in your next book about the divide amongst reformed? exegetes.

Yeah, you know a little bit to that.

I mean.

There's a whole chapter on Aquinas and you know. So we can we can stay on the trail and not to get too far off. Into the weeds, you know. One of the things that I should you know, I talk about in this book and I you know.

It's thoroughly document is that when you look at how Aquinas exegetes Romans one and two. He exegetes it's inverse virtually the same kind of way that that Calvin does I think it's difficult to find, you know significant difference in their exegesis.

And and then in particular I know that there's a lot of antipathy towards Aquinas. But I think that it you know one of the reasons that this is the case is that in the Contemporary setting a lot of people look at things because of on the 20th century and we take things whole cloth.

It's either all or nothing with with a person. But yet the way the 16th and 17th century reformers were is that they were much more eclectic. You know, you could find Francis Turretin, for example disagreeing quite vehemently Against Thomas Aquinas for a number of things, but on the other hand, he would agree with him in other places.

Where he thought okay. No, this is true so that they would you know, be very careful. So it's never a wholesale endorsement of anything, you know, Aquinas is never a seamless robe. For the 16th and 17th century reformed theologians, it's always you know we'll take him where he's right and we will reject him where he's wrong and.

Whereas nowadays it's kind of like it's all or nothing and I'm much more a fan of the older approach. Because really when it gets down to it. You know, obviously we have to qualify what we mean by the word Thomist.

But our confessions essentially have Thomas's fingerprints all over huge sections of it. Say the doctrine of God or you know doctrines like Providence or even on doctrines like predestination. You know, which the Apostle Paul talks about in Romans 9.

You know to put it kind of in us versus them terminology. Thomas is with the reformers on.

Predestination. I heard he believed in double predestination. Is that true? Yeah, that is, you know.

So that's why it's always, you know, it's always been, you know, give and take and the same thing for example goes with Theologians like Augustine, you know, Calvin could be very complimentary of Augustine.

But on the other hand, he could also be very critical of him. So I think that that's where I think in looking at these types of things. My one of my professors in seminary Millard Erickson. He says instead of instead of Outright accepting or rejecting something he says we have to be in the mode of grading of you.

You know, he says we have to look at theologians and grade them and say on this or that they do better over here. They do poorly in other words overall I'd give him a C plus, you know or something like that rather than saying something is just you know outright wrong now.

Of course, there's sometimes when you have to say yeah, though. This is just absolute garbage and you'd say that for example with the great heresy arc Pelagius for example, or Sinus. This is just all you know muddled garbage, but when we're talking about Things like Aquinas and what-have-you.

There's a there's a statement that I really love from you know from Herman Bovink or Bovink in the in the forward Preface to his reform dogmatic says that Aquinas Irenaeus Tertullian he says these theologians do not belong to Rome.

They belong to us as much as to Rome in other words prior to the Reformation, there's one church and This you know, so in other words, how do we look at ourselves? Do we look at the Reformation as the breakaway branch or do we look at Rome as the breakaway branch, right?

Especially after Trent.

Yes, exactly and I say it's Rome that's the breakaway branch not the Protestant Reformation. The Protestant Reformation makes the corrections and keeps. We're the trunk and it's Rome that is the breakaway branch.

And I think when we look at it, then we can say that yeah Augustine and Aquinas they're ours, but that doesn't mean that we embrace them, you know uncritically or we accept everything that we know that that they Have said far from it.

We always are good Bereans and now I'm referring to accents to Romans. But we are good Bereans and we always check. You know what? Anybody has to say against the bar of Scripture, right?

And for those Roman Catholics who are scoffing and mocking at the idea that they are the breakaway branch. And how could that possibly be be because the Reformation came to after the Roman Catholic Church?

Well, I think all's they need to do is look at Pope Francis and see how far he has drifted from even their understanding of Catholicism that they were raised in. And How much more even we who are Reformed Protestants have in common with them over and above Pope Francis?

Sure. Yeah, I think modern-day Roman Catholicism is just is Miles and miles away from where things were at the Council of Trent in the 16th century. So it's it's a very different it's a very different thing today than it was 400 years ago.

Well, thank you.

Brandon and thanks for giving us your full mailing address in Colorado because you are going to get not only this commentary in the book of Romans for free complements of Reformation heritage books, but also compliments of CVBBS .com Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service who will actually be shipping it to you and you're also since your first time questioner getting a free new American Standard Bible Compliments of the publishers of the NASB.

So thanks a lot for your first question to iron trumpets iron radio. We look forward to receiving many more from you in the future Brandon. God bless you. We're going to our first break right now. If you'd like to join us on the air.

If you want to get in line because there are a number of people already waiting to have their questions asked and answered. But if you want to get in line our email address is Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Chris Arnson at gmail .com. And as always always please remember to give us your first name City and state and country of residence if you live outside the USA and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private Matter don't go away.

We'll be right back with JV Fesco after these messages from our sponsors. I am Chris Arnson host of iron sharpens iron radio here to tell you about an exciting offer from world magazine my trusted source for news from a Christian perspective.

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