August 9, 2018 Show with Dr. J. V. Fesko on “Romans”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host, Chris Arnton. Good afternoon

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnton, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this ninth day of August 2018.

I'm so delighted to have today as a returning guest, Dr. J .V. Fesco.

He is an author, academic dean and professor of systematic theology and historic theology or historical theology at Westminster Seminary in California and today we are going to be addressing his new commentary on the book of Romans and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dr.

J .V. Fesco. Thanks for having me Chris, it's great to be with you today. Before we even go into the subject at hand, why don't you tell our listeners something about Westminster Seminary in California.

Yeah, we are I think one of the only, if I think the only reformed confessional seminary on the west coast and really at this stage with the establishment of the new

IRBS, Institute for Reformed Baptist Seminary in Fort Worth, now we're the only one west of Dallas, Fort Worth, and we've got about 125 -130 students and we've got a faculty of 13, which means that if you're looking for a seminary education where you can get a lot of one -on -one time with your professors,

I think that that's certainly then reason for you to check out Westminster Seminary, California. Great, and why don't you let our listeners something know something about the

Orthodox Presbyterian Church denomination of which you are a minister? Yeah, no, the

Orthodox Presbyterian Church was started by J. Gresham Machen, and it was founded in the 1920s and it was in response to the fact that he had been defrocked by the

Presbyterian Church in the U .S. because he started the Independent Mission Board, and the reason that he did so is that one of their famous missionaries, a woman by the name of Pearl Buck, had written a book called

The Good Earth, and among the things that she says in that book was essentially that, you know, denying the need for the gospel, and so Machen asked the question, hey, why on earth are we sending missionaries out if they're not promoting and propagating the gospel?

And so, lo and behold, the Orthodox Presbyterian Church, after a number of things, was founded, and since then it's been in existence for some 85 -plus years, and so it's a fantastic church.

I love it. It's the perfect imperfect church where there's no sin -free church, but I think it's certainly, you know, one of the best, and I'm honored to be a part of it.

Amen. Well, I do have quite a number of friends who are ministers and members of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church.

In fact, you're going to be hearing an ad during the show by my dear friend Pastor Bill Shishko.

I wonder if you recognize that name, but Bill is now hosting a program weekly, has been for quite a while now, called

A Visit to the Pastor's Study. It's heard every Saturday from 12 noon to 1 p .m.

Eastern Time on WLIE540AM .com on the internet, and also you can hear it on the 540

AM dial in the New York Tri -State area and even parts of Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, and Massachusetts during that time, 12 noon to 1 p .m.

Eastern Time. But you are, as I mentioned when I was announcing you, you have two different courses that you teach there at Westminster Seminary, and one of them is

Systematic Theology and one of them is Historical Theology. If you could differentiate and describe and compare and contrast these two different fields of theology.

Well, Systematic Theology is the systematic discussion and or exposition of the various doctrines that you find in the

Bible, and it usually consists of what they call the loci, or the places, is what that term translates to.

The places, the common doctrines, you begin with the doctrine of God, and often a subset of that is the doctrine of Scripture, or sometimes some people put it under the doctrine of Prolegomena, or first things, and then the doctrine of God.

And then after the doctrine of God, you've got the doctrine of man, or anthropology, and then you have the doctrine of Christ, and then from the doctrine of Christ you have the doctrine of soteriology, or salvation, and then from that you get the doctrine of ecclesiology, or the doctrine of the

Church, and then after that you get eschatology, or the doctrine of last things, and so it's the systematic explanation of these various doctrines throughout the

Scriptures, and not only what the Scriptures have to say about them, but how they all interrelate. By contrast,

Historical Theology is the study of the historical views that people have held throughout

Church history. So for example, this fall I'm teaching a course on Union with Christ, but I'm not teaching the doctrine per se, that I would go and elaborate, say, in a class on Systematic Theology, but rather it's a book that we're going to cover the book,

John Owen's book, Union and Communion with the God, so we're going to be studying what he has to say about these things, and so as such, this is a class in Historical Theology.

So in short, you could say Systematic Theology is the orderly treatment of the doctrines of the

Bible, whereas Historical Theology is studying what people have historically said about those doctrines, or about the

Bible. Now when you're going to be discussing Owen, are you going to be breaking him down so your average layman in the 21st century can understand what he's saying?

And I hate to use the term layman, but that's what we're left with, to differentiate people who are in the pastoral ministry, or differentiate scholars from your average

Christian, but if you could. Yeah, no, I think that's one of the things we're going to be using in a crossways edition of his book, which has got helpful little footnotes for some of the more difficult words, or at least the more archaic words that he uses, and then we're going to be taking it kind of section by section.

Now because it's a seminary class, we're going to be looking at it, say, 75 pages per week, so the students are going to have to read those 75 pages, but then we'll discuss each one of those sections as we go through it, and then obviously

I'm going to lecture about it for about an hour, and then after that, give the students ample time for an hour worth of questions and discussion, just to make sure that they get all of their, you know, their queries answered, and so we're looking forward to it.

In fact, I've had a number of auditors in this class that are not seminary students, some of them are seminary wives, some of them are folks from the community, and so yeah, this is something that I'm going to try to make it equally accessible for all, whether they're seminarians or non -seminarians.

Now what would the role of an auditor be in such a class? I've never heard that term involving a seminary class.

Yeah, it depends. Sometimes it just means that they're going to listen, and you know, that's what it technically, the

Latin word where we get auditor from means to listen, but in this class, because I want to mix it up a little bit, we're going to say, sure, you can do more than listen.

You can ask questions and contribute to the discussion, because when you spend an hour discussing, sometimes the students can be a little bit shy, and so it's helpful to have others who are willing to ask questions and to pose problems and what have you.

So yeah, so as an auditor, they can, you know, take the class, listen, they can just listen if they want, or they can participate, but the biggest thing usually that an auditor gets to do is they don't have to take any tests or turn in any papers.

Well, I can tell you it's the first time I've heard the term auditor used when I didn't break out in a cold sweat. So I want to read a couple of endorsements for the commentary we are going to be discussing today,

Dr. J .V. Fesco's commentary on the book of Romans. First of all, we have

Nancy Guthrie, who is a Bible teacher and author. She says, this clear and accessible commentary helps to take away the intimidation factor in seeking to faithfully understand and teach the book of Romans.

As a capable guide through this important book, Dr. Fesco looks back to bring in needed

Old Testament context for Paul's argument, while also looking forward to bring out the eschatological nature of Paul's hope.

And we have Kim Riddlebarger, who's been on this program. It's been a while, and this is a reminder for me to invite

Kim back on the show. He is senior pastor of Christ Reformed Church in Anaheim, California, which is in the

United Reformed Church of North America denomination. He's also co -host of the White Horse Inn along with Michael Horton.

And he says, J .V. Fesco's contribution to the Lectio Continua expository commentary on the

New Testament is a welcome addition to this series. Fesco tackles the thorny issues in Paul's epistle to the

Romans with scholarly rigor, yet his treatment is nicely seasoned with pastoral wisdom.

Romans is a book meant to be preached, studied, and read by the people of God. May Fesco's contribution help

God's people to do just that. And finally, another brother that I have not interviewed in quite a long time that I've got to get back on the program,

Guy Prentice Waters, the James M. Beard Jr. professor of New Testament at Reformed Theological Seminary in Jackson, Mississippi.

He writes, for many reasons, Romans is an intimidating book for pastors to preach. In this latest

Lectio Continua contribution, Fesco shows us how to explain and to apply, with confidence, this magisterial letter to the contemporary church.

Fesco's Romans models thoughtful exegesis, sound doctrine, and relevant application.

I heartily recommend this book to anyone who wants to understand this epistle better.

By the way, I just want to make an announcement, just to make sure that I don't forget to announce it later.

Our sponsors, Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, CVBBS .com, have marked down the price of this commentary by Dr.

Fesco from $40 to $27 .99. So if you do not win this commentary today, keep in mind that you could purchase it, or even if you do win it and you want to buy extra copies, you could go to CVBBS .com

and get it for a lot lower price than you would normally get at retail.

$40 is down to $27 .99. We thank Todd and Patty Jennings for providing this kind discount, generous discount, to our listeners.

I'm going to give our email address right away so our listeners can write in questions if they have them on the

Book of Romans. Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside of the good old

USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. Let's say you disagree with your own pastor on his interpretation of many of Paul's teachings in the

Book of Romans, or perhaps you are a pastor and you disagree with your own congregation or your denomination or fellowship or association, then you may write in anonymously.

But if you are just asking a general question, please give us at least your first name, city and state, and country of residence.

Now let me ask you before we move on, this as you know and even according to some of the endorsers of your book, this book has been described as a part of a series that Reformation Heritage Books is involved in publishing.

If you could tell us something about this series and what you are aware of in regard to how many books of the

Bible they have already in print, and you can maybe begin by defining Lectio Continua.

Lectio Continua is a tradition that was really kind of, you know, exercised with great force during the 16th century

Reformation, after for a number of centuries large portions of the church had devolved into preaching from sometimes lectionaries, or they had pre -written sermons that others had read or that others had written, and the idea is that Lectio Continua means continual reading, and so what this means is that the

Reformers, rather than preaching these pre -canned messages, if you will, or using other methods or just, you know, or preaching from other things, other passages of the

Bible, kind of just hodgepodge, they would start with the beginning of the book of the

Bible and then preach through it, you know, verse by verse, chapter by chapter, until they completed the book in its entirety, and so a lot of the times you see this in Calvin.

Calvin, for example, in Geneva, preached through Romans, he preached through Acts, he preached through Genesis, and you can buy his sermons on these various books of the

Bible. Like, I know that Banner of Truth has put out editions of some of his Genesis sermons, as well as his sermons on Acts.

In fact, he would preach through the New Testament books in the morning and then Old Testament books in the evening, and so, you know, this is the idea that this way, people in the church would not just have a very surface or a very thin understanding of the

Bible because it was collected, you know, hither and thither and yon, but rather it would be a holistic understanding of the

Bible because they would hear books of the Bible preached in their entirety, and, you know, there are a number of benefits to this in the sense that, you know, so often it can be the case, whether in the

Middle Ages or whatever, or even in the present day, that preachers have hobby horses and they will only preach certain passages or certain doctrines, whereas this way, when you preach

Lectio Continuo verse by verse and chapter by chapter, there's a sense in which God sets the preaching agenda for the church, and that you end up having to preach on whatever happens to come up in the passage, and if you ignore it or you skip over it, it's pretty evident when that happens.

People in the church begin to wonder, hey, why did you skip over this? So I think it's got a lot of things to commend it, and it's, you know, a way that it's a conviction that I've used, at least certainly when

I was in the pastorate, that this was the best way to proceed as a professor, now that I do a lot of pulpit supply.

I still try to do it as much as I'm able, but I'm the only one that benefits from it, really, because I get to hear all of the messages, you know, in order, whereas different churches hear different passages as I preach from them when

I'm doing pulpit supply. But as far as the books in this particular commentary series, there are a number of releases that came out, have come out already.

I was the contributor for the first one, and I, you know, did a volume on Galatians, and then after that, there,

Kim Riddlebarger has written on 1 Corinthians, Ian Hamilton has published

Ephesians, Joel Beakey has done Revelation, and David McWilliams has done

Hebrews, and the plan is, of course, to have the whole of the New Testament receiving a volume on each section of the

New Testament, or each book of the New Testament, with a couple of combined volumes. I can't remember exactly how they're going to package.

I think it may be, like, one volume on the pastoral epistles, for example. But, you know, it's got some terrific folks that are contributing to it, some terrific preachers, and so hopefully it would prove to be a good resource for the

Church, not only in terms of, you know, understanding, having a better understanding of the doctrine in these various letters of the

New Testament and the Gospels, but also, I think one of the hallmarks of the series is to have rigorous application.

So in other words, you know, you not only reflect upon the doctrine that's there in the passage and what the text says, but also, you know, the authors do their best to press the implications of the passage for the

Christian life. What does it look like on a day -to -day basis, and how, as Christians, can we understand, benefit, and live out the truths that we find in the

Scriptures? Well, it's interesting that you had the privilege of writing commentaries on the two books that and perhaps you can correct me if you think

I'm wrong, but the two books of the Scriptures that seem to be the primary books, the

God -breathed books of Scripture upon which the Reformation hinges, the Romans and Galatians.

Yeah, I think those two books were certainly, you know, the flashpoints, the exegetical flashpoints of controversy between the

Protestant Reformers and Rome. And so, yeah, it was a real privilege when

I was first contacted, and they said, would you be willing to do Romans and Galatians? I was like, yeah, sure, that'd be fantastic.

I mean, I don't know if... the comparison is horrible, so please excuse the comparison, but I'm a peasant, and it's the only thing that I know, and it's almost like somebody saying, would you like to direct a

Star Wars movie? I'd be like, well, sure, why not? That would be the

Book of Revelation, wouldn't it? Yeah, that's right, with all the dragons and whatnot.

So, I mean, it was just, you know, it's just amazing, and I consider it a real privilege that I was asked to handle those two books, and there's a sense in which it was a little bit frightening for me, because, you know, if I write in the preface or the introduction of the commentary, you know, you almost feel a bit of fear, like Uzzah approaching the

Ark. Of course, Uzzah didn't feel that fear, he went and touched it, but, you know, this has been one of the most significant books of the

Bible in the history of the Church, and goodness gracious, you know, what am

I doing writing on it? And I hope I can do a sufficient job to not only be faithful to the text, but also so that I can, you know, produce something that is edifying to the

Church and glorifying to God. Well, Uzzah may have felt at least one second of fear after he touched the

Ark. Yeah, exactly, that's right. We have some listeners who have written in questions for you.

We have a first -time questioner, Brandon from Littleton, Colorado.

Brandon writes in, as someone relatively new to Reformed apologetics, let's see,

I already skipped over some of his sentences here, sorry about that. As someone relatively new to Reformed apologetics,

I quickly fell in love with Van Till and his method. Coming from a non -Reformed approach to apologetics, it was a breath of fresh air to read someone who understood the way sin affects our apologetics approach.

Around the same time, I was reading Scott Oliphant, who is, for our listeners who don't know

Scott, he is a professor at Westminster in Philadelphia, who championed

Van Till. Reading these two, I thought this was the Reformed approach.

I'm sure you address this, but how does Van Till, Oliphant, and others make this case?

Are they picking and choosing who they quote? And of course, this is a little bit off the subject of the

Book of Romans, but since he is a first -time questioner, and you have written on apologetics already, on a separate volume, so do you care to attempt to answer our listener's question here?

Sure, no, and what I can do is I can definitely connect it to Romans, because there is a lot of material in the whole

Bible that deals with questions related to defending of the faith, but in particular, I think historically

Romans has featured quite prominently, in that I think that, you know, historically,

Reformed theologians have appealed to a number of statements in Romans chapter 1 and 2, where Paul outlines the sinfulness of fallen human beings, and you see that of course quite prominently beginning in Romans chapter 1 verse 18, where he talks about the wrath of God being revealed against all unrighteousness, and he spells out the sinfulness of the

Gentiles, the sinfulness of the Jews, and then wrapping it up in Romans chapter 3, really kind of in a comprehensive way to talk about the sinfulness of all human beings.

But there are, you know, two important, I think, observations in all of this, is that first of all, you know, both

I think Van Til and the historic Reformed tradition would say that Romans 1 testifies to the universal accountability that all human beings have to God, in that they know who

God is, because the things of this created world clearly reveal

God's character and his attributes. Now this is not saving knowledge, this is not the knowledge of the gospel, but rather this is the knowledge that the creation reveals, and it's revealed in two primary ways, according to Paul.

First of all, it's revealed through the creation itself, the creation testifies, and Psalm 19, for example, talks about these things of the creation shouting forth, if you will, the existence of God through his handiwork.

But then secondarily, you find this in terms of the law of God that he has implanted or written upon our hearts in Romans chapter 2, and it's usually in verses 14 and 15, where the

Apostle Paul talks about, you know, the Gentiles, so those who do not have the law, that is the

Torah, the revealed law there at Sinai, have the works of the law inscribed upon their hearts.

Historically, the Reformed tradition has said, you know, this is how we have a connection to unbelievers, and you see this, for example, in terms of saying, yeah, all human beings are inexcusable, they all know

God, therefore they can't claim, hey, I didn't know. And moreover, the Apostle Paul, for example, even says in Romans 2, 14, 15, that their consciences accuse and excuse their conduct so that they even can discern right from wrong, and that God has done this by virtue of the fact that they are created in the image of God.

And I think Van Til picks up on this, but where there's an unnecessary conflict between Van Til and the historic

Reformed tradition is that Van Til, the way that Reformed theologians would talk about this is under the category of what they call common notions.

The common knowledge that all people share by virtue of their creation in the image of God.

And so Van Til, on the one hand, rejects the appeal to common notions, because he thought that it was a

Roman Catholic idea. You find Thomas Aquinas talking about it, Herman Bavick, for example, appeal to Aquinas, who had talked about it, and he said, no, we have to get rid of this, this is a

Roman Catholic idea. And instead of this, we have to appeal to people on the basis of their identity as covenant breakers and in terms of the image of God, and I want to say, yeah, that's right, that's exactly what the historic

Reformed tradition has said. So I think at times what Van Til is doing is that I think he mistakenly criticizes the historic

Reformed tradition when he need not do so. And so in that sense, the historic

Reformed tradition in Van Til, despite Van Til's protestations, they actually agree on that, that this is the way that we can approach human beings or fallen human beings, is that we can say, yeah, you know

God, you can see his handiwork in the creation. Moreover, you know right from wrong.

And this begins, this gives us what some theologians call the point of contact with the unbeliever, and so there are many things that we share in common.

But what Paul eventually gets to, and especially in chapter 3, verses 21 and following, is that whatever we may hold in common with the unbeliever, say in terms of the knowledge of God, the law written upon our hearts, is that there comes that conflict, the antithesis that Van Til was always so eager to press, and rightly so in terms of pressing the antithesis against unbelief and confronting the unbeliever by showing him or her his sinfulness and recognizing that there is absolutely no other way, no other means by which they can be saved except through the person and work of Christ, and of course, you know,

Paul lays that out. So I think that what Van Til does at some points is he presses that antithesis very well in matters of soteriology, in matters of salvation, but sometimes

I think he presses it too far when it comes to matters related to the things that we have in common with the unbeliever.

So, you know, I think at some points, I've got a book coming out in March of next year where I talk in great detail about all of these things.

In fact, I was reading the galley proofs for the book this morning, and you know, going through some of these things, and so I would leave my fuller answer to that book when it comes out.

What's the title of it? It's called Reforming Apologetics, and it's up on, you know, you could look for it up on Amazon, and the subtitle, if I can remember the subtitle exactly, it's called

Retrieving Classic Reform Theology for Defending the Faith. Great.

And so I'm hopeful that basically kind of re -familiarizing ourselves with the classic confessional reform theology on these matters, and showing at some places where Vantill needlessly distanced us from that tradition, and hopefully showing where there's agreement between what

Vantill was trying to and the historic reform tradition, and going forward to use this classic teaching in the defense of the faith.

Yes, I have seen amongst reformed writers a stark contrast with one another on the issue of Thomas Aquinas.

There are some who welcome him as a great teacher and father of the faith.

I know that the late Dr. R .C. Sproul gleaned much from Thomas Aquinas, but I also know of others who are very, very adamantly opposed to us gleaning or attempting to glean anything from Aquinas.

So are you going to be talking about that in much detail in your book about the divide amongst reformed exegetes?

Yeah, you know, a little bit to that. I mean, there's a whole chapter on Aquinas, and so we can stay on the trail and not get too far off into the weeds.

You know, one of the things that I talk about in this book, and I thoroughly document, is that when you look at how

Aquinas exegetes Romans 1 and 2, he exegetes in virtually the same kind of way that Calvin does.

I think it's difficult to find, you know, significant difference in their exegesis.

And then in particular, I know that there's a lot of antipathy towards Aquinas, but I think that it, you know, one of the reasons that this is the case is that in the contemporary setting, a lot of people look at things because of the philosophical influences upon the 20th century, and we take things whole cloth.

It's either all or nothing with a person, but yet the way the 16th and 17th century reformers were is that they were much more eclectic.

You know, you could find Francis Turretin, for example, disagreeing quite vehemently against Thomas Aquinas for a number of things, but on the other hand, he would agree with him in other places where he thought, okay, no, this is true, so that they would, you know, be very careful.

So it's never a wholesale endorsement of anything, you know, Aquinas is never a seamless robe for the 16th and 17th century

Reform theologians. It's always, you know, we'll take him where he's right and we will reject him where he's wrong, whereas nowadays it's kind of like it's all or nothing.

And I'm much more a fan of the older approach, because really when it gets down to it, you know, obviously we have to qualify what we mean by the word

Thomist, but our confessions essentially have Thomas's fingerprints all over huge sections of it, say the

Doctrine of God, or, you know, doctrines like Providence, or even in doctrines like Predestination, you know, which the

Apostle Paul talks about in Romans 9, you know, to put it kind of in us versus them terminology,

Thomas is with the Reformers on Predestination. I heard he believed in double Predestination, is that true?

Yeah, that is, you know, so that's why it's always, you know, it's always been, you know, give and take. And the same thing, for example, goes with theologians like Augustine.

You know, Calvin could be very complimentary of Augustine, but on the other hand he could also be very critical of him.

So I think that that's where, I think in looking at these types of things, one of my professors in seminary,

Millard Erickson, he says instead of outright accepting or rejecting something, he says we have to be in a mode of grading of you.

You know, he says we have to look at theologians and grade them and say, on this or that, they do better over here, they do poorly.

In other words, overall I'd give them a C -plus, you know, or something like that, rather than saying something is just, you know, outright wrong.

Now, of course, there's some times when you have to say, yeah, no, this is just absolute garbage, and you'd say that, for example, with the great heresiarch

Pelagius, for example, versus Sinus. This is just all, you know, muddled garbage. But when we're talking about things like Aquinas and what have you, there's a statement that I really love from Herman Bovink, where Bovink, in the preface to his

Reform Dogmatics, says that Aquinas, Irenaeus, Tertullian, he says, these theologians do not belong to Rome, they belong to us as much as to Rome.

In other words, prior to the Reformation, there's one church, and this, you know, so in other words, how do we look at ourselves?

Do we look at the Reformation as the breakaway branch, or do we look at Rome as the breakaway branch?

Right, right. Especially after Trent. Yes, exactly. And I say it's Rome that's the breakaway branch, not the

Protestant Reformation. The Protestant Reformation makes the corrections and keeps, we're the trunk, and it's

Rome that is the breakaway branch. And I think when we look at it, then we can say that, yeah, Augustine and Aquinas, they're ours, but that doesn't mean that we embrace them, you know, uncritically, or we accept everything that they have said.

Far from it. We always are good Bereans, and now I'm referring to accents to Romans, but we are good

Bereans, and we always check, you know, what anybody has to say against the bar of Scripture.

Right. And for those Roman Catholics who are scoffing and mocking at the idea that they are the breakaway branch, and how could that possibly be?

Because the Reformation came after the Roman Catholic Church. Well, I think all they need to do is look at Pope Francis and see how far he has drifted from even their understanding of Catholicism that they were raised in, and how much more even we who are

Reformed Protestants have in common with them over and above Pope Francis. Sure, yeah.

I think modern -day Roman Catholicism is just, is miles and miles away from where things were at the

Council of Trent in the 16th century. So it's a very different thing today than it was 400 years ago.

Well, thank you, Brandon, and thanks for giving us your full mailing address in Colorado, because you are going to get not only this commentary in the

Book of Romans for free, compliments of Reformation Heritage Books, but also compliments of cvbbs .com,

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, who will actually be shipping it to you. And you're also, since you're a first -time questioner, getting a free

New American Standard Bible, compliments of the publishers of the NASB.

So thanks a lot for your first question to Iron Trip and Zion Radio. We look forward to receiving many more from you in the future,

Brandon. God bless you. We're going to our first break right now. If you'd like to join us on the air, if you want to get in line, because there are a number of people already waiting to have their questions asked and answered, but if you want to get in line, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

chrisarnsen at gmail .com. And as always, always please remember to give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence if you live outside the

USA, and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. Don't go away.

We'll be right back with J .V. Fasco after these messages from our sponsors. Hi, I'm Chris Arnzen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, here to tell you about an exciting offer from World Magazine, my trusted source for news from a

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Iron Sharpens today. James White here, co -founder of Alpha Omega Ministries and occasional guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

I'm so delighted that my friend Chris Arnzen will be heading down to Atlanta for the next G3 conference from January 17th to the 19th, 2019, where I'll be joining a very impressive lineup of speakers on the theme,

A Biblical Understanding of Missions. Speakers include John Piper, Steve Lawson, Vodie Baucom, Mark Dever, Conrad Mbewe, Phil Johnson, Josh Weiss, yours truly, and many more.

I hope you all join Chris and me for this phenomenal event. For more details, go to g3conference .com.

That's g3conference .com. Chris Arnzen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio here.

I want to tell you about a man I have personally known for many years. His name is Dan Buttafuoco.

Dan is a personal injury and medical malpractice lawyer, but not the type that typically comes to mind.

Dan cares about people and is a theologian himself. Recently, he wrote a book titled Consider the

Evidence for the Bible. Ravi Zacharias wrote the foreword. Dan also has a master's degree in theology.

Dan handles serious injury and medical malpractice cases in all 50 states. He represents many

Christians in serious injury matters all over the country. Dan is an exceptional trial lawyer.

He wrote the test for the National Board of Trial Advocacy, and currently his firm has over 100 cases that have settled for $1 million or more, and in approximately 10 different states.

In Illinois, his lawyers had the fourth largest settlement in the state's history. In New York, his case involving a paralyzed police officer made the front page of the

Law Journal. If you have a serious personal injury or medical malpractice claim in any state,

I recommend that you call Dan. Consultations are free. There is no fee unless you win.

Dan Buttafuoco's number is 1 -800 -669 -4878. 1 -800 -669 -4878.

Or email me for Dan's contact information at chrisarnson at gmail .com.

That's chrisarnson at gmail .com. My name is

Steve Lawson, founder and president of One Passion Ministries, as well as teaching fellow for Ligonier Ministries.

I serve as professor of preaching and oversee the doctor of ministry program at the Master's Seminary in Los Angeles.

I would like to recommend the church where one of my preaching students, Andy Woodard, serves as the pastor.

It's called New Covenant Church, NYC. They are a Reformed Baptist church that meets in Midtown Manhattan.

You can find their service times and location on their website, which is www .ncc .nyc.

They believe in a sovereign God who commands all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel.

If you're looking for a church that believes in expository preaching, which is simply biblical preaching, in New York City, I'd like to recommend that you visit

New Covenant Church, NYC. Again, their information can be found at www .ncc

.nyc. Have a great day. We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you, and we invite you to visit the pastor's study by calling in with your questions.

Our time will be lively, useful, and I assure you, never dull. Join us this Saturday at 12 noon

Eastern time for a visit to the pastor's study, because everyone needs a pastor. Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said,

Give yourself unto reading. The man who never reads will never be read.

He who never quotes will never be quoted. He who will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves he has no brains of his own.

You need to read. Solid Ground Christian Books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the

Prince of Preachers to heart. The mission of Solid Ground Christian Books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to Christians in the present and future, and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world.

Since its beginning in 2001, Solid Ground has been committed to publish God -centered,

Christ -exalting books for all ages. We invite you to go treasure hunting at solid -ground -books .com.

That's solid -ground -books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past to present you can unearth from Solid Ground.

Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. And don't forget to continue to pray for Mike Gaydosh, the founder of Solid Ground Christian Books.

As many of you know, he is going in for some very serious, delicate, and complicated open -heart surgery.

He's going in for surgery prep on Thursday the 23rd of August, and then surgery the first thing

Friday morning on the 24th of August. Please pray that our great physician Jesus Christ raises

Mike up out of that hospital bed when all is completed, a stronger and healthier man physically than he has been in years, and even a stronger and healthier man spiritually than he has been due to this trial that he is undergoing by the loving hand of a merciful and providential

God. And we value Mike very, very much here at Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

He's a key sponsor of this program, and he is my very first pastor after being born again by the grace of God in the 1980s, and has been a friend and mentor ever since.

So please continue to pray for Mike Gaydosh and his open -heart surgery. We are now back to our discussion on the

Book of Romans with our guest Dr. J .V. Fesco, author, academic dean, and professor of systematic theology and historical theology at Westminster Seminary, California.

This new commentary on the Book of Romans that he has written has been published by our friends at Reformation Heritage Books and is available at cvbbs .com,

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, and it's marked down from $40 to $27 .99

if you mention Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio when contacting cvbbs .com.

And the email address, if you'd like to join those that are already waiting to have their questions asked and answered, is chrisarnzen at gmail .com,

chrisarnzen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence.

If you live outside the USA, only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. We have John in Chama, New Mexico.

I don't know how to pronounce it. It's C -H -A -M -A. Maybe both of those pronunciations are wrong, but John asks, if you had to pick one verse in Romans that defines the whole epistle, what would it be?

Oh yeah, I think that's, in one sentence, that's an easy question I'm grateful for. I think it would be

Romans 1, 16 and 17, you know, where I identify that as kind of like the thesis statement of the entire epistle, for I'm not ashamed of the gospel, for it's the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the

Jew first and also to the Greek, for in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith, as it is written, the righteous shall live by faith.

Those two verses right there set, I think, the entire agenda for the letter, and that everything that follows,

I think, is Paul explaining the significance of what that means doctrinally, what it means in terms of our salvation by faith alone and Christ alone, what that means in terms of the person and work of Christ, what that means in terms of the

Christian life. So yeah, I think that those are probably the two most important verses in the whole epistle.

Well thank you, John, and please give us your full mailing address in Chema, or Chema, New Mexico, so we can have the commentary in the

Book of Romans by J .V. Fesco mailed out to you by our friends at CVBBS .com,

no charge to you or to us, compliments of our friends at Reformation Heritage Books. We have

Daniel in Bakersfield, California, and he says,

What do you say to people who believe that Romans 9 is referring to the salvation of a people group and not to the salvation of individual believers?

I've heard explanations on this before, but I wanted to hear your take on it. Thanks. Yeah, that's a good question, and I think it's obviously,

I think, a natural one in that, to me, you know, I think that when you approach

Romans 9, that's the foyer, if you will, or the entry point to Romans 9.

It's going to sound a bit too obvious, but we need to look at Romans 9, 1 through 5.

I think that that really is so important, because so many people immediately go for the jugular, you know, they go for Romans 9, 13, as it is written,

Jacob, I've loved, but he saw that I hated, or Romans 9, 21, has the potter no right over the clay to make out of this same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use.

And we can certainly, I think, approach and get to the truth in what Paul says in Romans 9, 6 and following, but when you see

Paul pour his heart out in Romans 9, 1, where he says, I'm speaking the truth in Christ, I'm not lying, my conscience bears me witness in the

Holy Spirit, so here he three times emphasizes how important what he's about to say is and how truthful it is.

He says it one time, two times, three times, I'm speaking the truth in Christ, I'm not lying, my conscience bears me witness in the

Holy Spirit, so right there that should signal us that he is speaking of the greatest of issues here, and the greatest of concerns.

He says, I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart, for I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers.

So here he's saying he would be cut off from Christ, that's nothing less than damnation.

So right there, I think that gives us an indication as to what's at stake. It's not simply the election of the nation of Israel to serve

God and denoting their privileged status, however important that might be on the stage of redemptive history.

He's talking in terms of salvation and damnation, and so here, this is why there is such great anguish in his heart, is because he's saying that the implication or the inverse is true, that if he could wish that he were accursed and cut off from for Christ for the sake of his brothers, then that means that the people that he is anguishing over are cut off from Christ.

And so the Bible, I think, is very clear that to be cut off from Christ is to be in a state of condemnation and damnation.

So right there, I think that begins to show us what Paul is spelling out here in the ninth chapter of Romans, in that he's talking about the election of individuals and not simply of nations.

Yeah, and I don't even know how it is more comforting to anybody that God singles out entire nations above other nations.

Why is that even more of a comfort? It doesn't really make sense to me. But in fact,

I know that I've said this before on this show, but I cannot help but repeat it because it's such, to me, an amazing story.

I have a friend who has become a full -fledged five -point Calvinist after being a non -Calvinist, independent fundamentalist

Baptist, and he became a Calvinist before he let his father -in -law know that he became a

Calvinist. And his father -in -law, also a pastor of a different church, is a vehemently anti -Calvinist individual.

And when he told his father -in -law that he was going to be preaching on Romans 9 a number of years ago, his father -in -law said, oh, you've got to let me give you my sermon notes and my guideline to preaching on this.

So he politely accepted the notes, and he said that his father -in -law, the anti -Calvinist, said, you must preach through this book in one sermon.

You cannot dwell on it too long and allow people to think too long and hard about what you are saying.

You've got to pull it off like you're tearing off a band -aid. Oh, my goodness.

And you've got to keep in mind, this is a man who believes in the inerrancy of Scripture.

And he is saying this, and it shows you that he's afraid of what he knows this chapter teaches. And he actually said in his sermon notes in the text, where it says,

Jacob I loved and Esau I hated, he said, do not read this. Oh, my goodness.

Unbelievable. But anyway, thank you, Daniel, in Bakersfield, California. And thank you for your mailing address, cvbbs .com.

We'll ship this out to you as soon as possible, compliments of our friends at Reformation Heritage Books. We're going to our long midway break right now.

This is our elongated break that we take because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1

FM in Lake City, Florida, who airs this program daily, they need this long gap to have their own commercials and public service announcements aired to connect to the local community there in Lake City, Florida.

So please be patient. As we take this elongated break, use this time to not only write down questions for our guest

Dr. JV Fesco on the Book of Romans, but also to write down the information provided by our advertisers, because the more you successfully patronize our advertisers, the longer our advertisers will remain advertisers, most likely, because when they are reaping benefits from sponsoring the show, they will be more likely to want to continue with us.

And we need their advertising dollars to remain on the air. So our email address, if you'd like to send in another question or a question,

I should say to JV Fesco, it's chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages with more of JV Fesco on the Book of Romans.

Every day at thousands of community centers, high schools, middle schools, juvenile institutions, coffee shops and local hangouts,

Long Island Youth for Christ, staff and volunteers meet with young people who need Jesus. We are rural and urban and we are always about the message of Jesus.

Our mission is to have a noticeable spiritual impact on Long Island, New York by engaging young people in the lifelong journey of following Christ.

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That's liyfc .org. Tired of box store

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And how about the preaching? Perhaps you've begun to think that in -depth biblical exposition has vanished from Long Island.

Well, there's good news. Wedding River Baptist Church exists to provide believers with a meaningful and reverent worship experience featuring the systematic exposition of God's Word.

And this loving congregation looks forward to meeting you. Call them at 631 -929 -3512 for service times.

631 -929 -3512 or check out their website at wrbc .us.

That's wrbc .us. I'm James White of Alpha Omega Ministries.

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One sure way all Iron Sharpens Iron radio listeners can help keep my show on the air is to support my advertisers.

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Or go to batterydepot .com. That's batterydepot .com. Have you been blessed by Iron Sharpens Iron Radio?

We remain on the air because of our faithful sponsors and because of listeners like you. There are four ways you can help.

First, do you know potential sponsors who may wish to advertise their goods or services on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio?

Second, whenever possible, purchase the products or use the services that our sponsors advertise, and then let them know that you heard about them on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Thirdly, you can also donate to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio by going to our website at ironsharpensironradio .com

and click support at the top of the page. But most importantly, keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio in your prayers.

We hope that Iron Sharpens Iron Radio blesses you for many years to come. Chris Sorensen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio here.

I want to tell you about a man I have personally known for many years. His name is Dan Buttafuoco.

Dan is a personal injury and medical malpractice lawyer, but not the type that typically comes to mind.

Dan cares about people and is a theologian himself. Recently, he wrote a book titled Consider the

Evidence for the Bible. Ravi Zacharias wrote the foreword. Dan also has a master's degree in theology.

Dan handles serious injury and medical malpractice cases in all 50 states. He represents many

Christians in serious injury matters all over the country. Dan is an exceptional trial lawyer.

He wrote the test for the National Board of Trial Advocacy, and currently his firm has over 100 cases that have settled for $1 million or more, and in approximately 10 different states.

In Illinois, his lawyers had the fourth largest settlement in the state's history. In New York, his case involving a paralyzed police officer made the front page of the law journal.

If you have a serious personal injury or medical malpractice claim in any state, I recommend that you call

Dan. Consultations are free. There is no fee unless you win. Dan Badafuoco's number is 1 -800 -669 -4878.

1 -800 -669 -4878. Or email me for Dan's contact information at chrisarnson at gmail .com.

That's chrisarnson at gmail .com. Oh yeah.

Oh yeah. James White here, co -founder of Alpha and Omega Ministries and occasional guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

I'm so delighted. My friend Chris Arnson will be heading down to Atlanta for the next G3 conference from January 17th to the 19th, 2019, where I'll be joining a very impressive lineup of speakers on the theme,

A Biblical Understanding of Missions. Speakers include John Piper, Steve Lawson, Votie Balcombe, Mark Dever, Conrad Mbewe, Phil Johnson, Josh Weiss, yours truly, and many more.

I hope you all join Chris and me for this phenomenal event. For more details, go to g3conference .com.

That's g3conference .com. My name is

Steve Lawson, founder and president of One Passion Ministries, as well as teaching fellow for Ligonier Ministries.

I serve as professor of preaching and oversee the doctor of ministry program at the Master's Seminary in Los Angeles.

I would like to recommend the church where one of my preaching students, Andy Woodard, serves as the pastor.

It's called New Covenant Church, NYC. They are a reformed Baptist church that meets in Midtown Manhattan.

You can find their service times and location on their website, which is www .ncc .nyc.

They believe in a sovereign God who commands all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel.

If you're looking for a church that believes in expository preaching, which is simply biblical preaching, in New York City, I'd like to recommend that you visit

New Covenant Church, NYC. Again, their information can be found at www .ncc

.nyc. Have a great day. Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said,

Give yourself unto reading. The man who never reads will never be read. He who never quotes will never be quoted.

He who will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves that he has no brains of his own.

You need to read. Solid Ground Christian Books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the

Prince of Preachers to heart. The mission of Solid Ground Christian Books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to Christians in the present and future, and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world.

Since its beginning in 2001, Solid Ground has been committed to publish God -centered,

Christ -exalting books for all ages. We invite you to go treasure hunting at Solid -Ground -Books .com.

That's Solid -Ground -Books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past to present you can unearth from Solid Ground.

Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Hi, I'm Buzz Taylor, frequent co -host with Chris Arnson on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

I would like to introduce you to my good friends Todd and Patty Jennings at CVBBS, which stands for Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.

Todd and Patty specialize in supplying Reformed and Puritan books and Bibles at discount prices that make them affordable to everyone.

Since 1987, the family -owned and operated book service has sought to bring you the best available

Christian books and Bibles at the best possible prices. Unlike other book sites, they make no effort to provide every book that is available because, frankly, much of what is being printed is not worth your time.

That means you can get to the good stuff faster. It also means that you don't have to worry about being assaulted by the pornographic, heretical, and otherwise faith -insulting material promoted by the secular book vendors.

Their website is CVBBS .com. Browse the pages at ease, shop at your leisure, and purchase with confidence as Todd and Patty work in service to you, the church, and to Christ.

That's Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service at CVBBS .com. That's CVBBS .com.

Let Todd and Patty know that you heard about them on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. And you can call

CVBBS .com at their toll -free number Monday through Friday from 10 a .m.

to 430 p .m. Eastern Time at 800 -656 -0231.

There is no voicemail on that line, so if you get no answer, just call back the next day.

If it is a weekday, Monday through Friday, 10 a .m. to 430 p .m. Eastern. Of course, you can order 24 hours a day, seven days a week, 52 weeks of the year at CVBBS .com.

If you mention Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and you purchase a minimum of $50 or more of merchandise, you'll receive free of charge

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We just have a couple of announcements to make that are very important. Coming up next month on Friday, September the 7th, my friend

Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries will be joined by Dr.

Michael L. Brown of the Line of Fire and of Fire School of Ministry at the

Gordon -Conwell Theological Seminary's Jacksonville, Florida campus. They are going to be speaking on cross -denominational partnerships for the gospel.

That's Friday, September 7th, 6 .30 p .m. at the Gordon -Conwell Theological Seminary, Jacksonville, Florida.

Then the following day, they are going to be debating at the Switzerland Community Church of St.

John's, Florida, nearby there in the Jacksonville area. They're debating on the same side as a team against two ordained ministers and professing

Christians who believe that homosexuality is an appropriate desire and activity.

The debate theme is, is homosexuality consistent with New Testament obedience?

That is the debate theme. Is homosexuality consistent with New Testament obedience? And their opponents in this debate are

Reverend Patrick Rogers of the United Church of Christ in Fort Lauderdale, Florida, and the

Reverend Dwayne J. Robinson of the Called Out Believers in Christ Fellowship in Jacksonville, Florida.

For more details, go to switzerlandcc .org. That's switzerlandcc, which stands for communitychurch .org.

Then coming up in November on the 9th and the 10th, the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals is having their annual

Quaker Town Conference on Reform Theology on the theme, The Glory of the Cross. The speakers include

David Garner, Ray Ortland, Richard Phillips, Timothy Gibson, and Carlton Winn. If you'd like to register for this event, which is being held at the

Grace Bible Fellowship Church of Quaker Town, Pennsylvania, go to alliancenet .org, alliancenet .org,

click on events, and then scroll down to Quaker Town Conference on Reform Theology. Please make sure you tell the folks there that you heard about the conference from Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

I intend to be there with an Iron Sharpens Iron Radio exhibitors booth, so I hope to see you there.

Then coming up in January, the long -awaited G3 Conference is going to be held,

God willing, from Thursday, January 17th through Saturday, January 19th at the

Georgia International Convention Center in College Park, Georgia, which is a suburb of Atlanta.

They are expecting between 4 ,000 and 5 ,000 people to attend this event. The theme is

The Mission of God, A Biblical Understanding of Missions, and the speakers include John Piper, Stephen Lawson, Bodhi Baucom, Mark Dever, Conrad Mbewe, Tim Challies, Phil Johnson, Executive Director of John MacArthur's Ministry, grace to you,

James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries, Todd Friel of Wretched TV and Wretched Radio, Stephen J.

Nichols, the President of Reformation Bible College, which is the Bible College of R .C.

Sproul and Ligonier Ministries, and there are many more on this roster. If you'd like to register, go to g3conference .com,

g3conference .com, and also keep in mind if you have Spanish -speaking or bilingual friends, they are having a

Spanish edition of the conference on Wednesday, January 16th that will be entirely in the

Spanish language. Please tell all these organizations and ministries that you heard about these events from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Last but not least, if you love this show, you don't want it to go away, please go to ironsharpensironradio .com,

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Never put your family in financial jeopardy by giving to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Those two things are commands of God providing for church and home.

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Go to ironsharpensironradio .com, click support, then click click to donate now and donate instantly with a debit or credit card.

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English language how grateful I am to you and how grateful I am to God for you. If you would like to send in a question to Dr.

J. V. Fesco regarding the Book of Romans, which is our topic today, that is also the email address where you could send in a question, chrisarnzen at gmail .com,

chrisarnzen at gmail .com. Oh, I forgot to mention that you could advertise with us by sending in an email to chrisarnzen at gmail .com

and put advertising in the subject line because those advertising dollars surely do help us remain on the air. And as long as whatever it is you're promoting is compatible with what we believe here, we would love to help you launch an ad campaign.

You don't have to believe identically with me, but whatever you're promoting has to be at least compatible with what I believe.

It cannot militate against it. But we are back now with our conversation on the

Book of Romans with Dr. J. V. Fesco, author, academic dean, and professor of systematic theology and historical theology at Westminster Seminary in California.

Our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com. And we have a listener from Sharpsburg, Georgia, Lou, who asks, what makes the

Book of Romans so intimidating for pastors to preach through? You know, that's a tough question in one sense, because maybe it just depends on, you know, kind of subjective answers, but my suspicion is, one, is that it's the impact that it's had in the

Church, and especially for Protestants in the Reformation. I can't cite any specific statistics, but I know that Romans is one of the most written on books of the

Bible. I think there was a period in the Reformation in the 16th century,

I think in a decade, where something like 30 or 40 commentaries on Romans were written by Protestant and Roman Catholics.

So that's the first observation. The second observation is that there are some tough passages in there, you know, whether you're talking about elections, say

Romans chapter 9, whether you're talking about Romans chapter 2 and what

Paul has to say about, you know, the works of the law written on the heart, is he talking about Gentiles or is he talking about Gentile Christians?

And then Romans 7, you know, who is Paul talking about? Is it autobiography? Is it not?

You know, is it pre -fall, post -fall, or is it something else? You know, Romans chapter 11, in what manner is all

Israel saved? Is it all Israel today? Is it Israel as the whole collective people of God?

There's just so many challenging issues there. But then third, I think one of the things that comes up is that when you take some of the greats, say for example, you know,

Martin Lloyd -Jones took nearly 14 years to preach through Romans. Wow.

You know, it's just a lot, you know, a lot of great names are associated, great preachers are associated with the books.

So you add all of that up and it can be kind of intimidating. You know, there are definitely other books that are challenging, but I think that this is perhaps one of the best known.

And I tell the brief story in the introduction that I, when I was going to preach through Romans, and it was probably my second or third year as a pastor, one of my friends said, you can't do that, you gotta wait until you've been 20 or 30 years in.

It's like John Piper waited until late in his ministry to preach on it. And I chuckled and I said, well, you know, that can be one approach.

I said, but if John Calvin said that Romans was the key to unlocking all of scripture, I don't want to wait until the end.

I want to start looking at that key now. And I want to start, you know, trying to figure things out now.

And I can always go back and I can revisit it. I can preach it again. You know, there's nothing that keeps me from doing that.

And so whether that was wise or foolish, I will leave to others to decide.

But I plowed in with both feet and, you know, and was really blessed because of it, and really enjoyed preaching through it.

And not only preaching through it, but, you know, obviously here, being able to put my thoughts and record my understanding of the book here in this expository commentary.

Great. Well, thank you, Lou. Please give us your full mailing address in Sharpsburg, Georgia, so that CVBBS .com

can ship out to you a free copy of this commentary on the book of Romans by our guest,

Dr. J .V. Fesco, compliments of Reformation Heritage Books and compliments of CVBBS, who is handling the shipping charge themselves.

In fact, wasn't Romans 1, verse 17, for in it, the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith, as it is written, but the righteous man shall live by faith.

Isn't that what sparked in the mind of the Augustinian monk,

Martin Luther, the truth of justification by faith alone? Yes, it was.

I mean, that was, in one sense, the verse that tormented him for a number of years, because he thought that it had to be his own righteousness, and in fact, you know,

Sproul, of course, tells it so well, you know, when he would teach on this, that, you know, when he talks about Luther and people asking him, do you love

God? And he said, love God. I hate him, because when he heard of the righteousness of God, all he could think of and conceive of was the righteousness that belonged to God himself, by which he judged the wicked, and Luther considered himself wicked, and of course, as a sinner, he was.

And so he just really had trouble with that, and I quote that passage from his biography, where he says, once he realized that Paul was speaking of the gift of righteousness that comes through the gospel and by faith alone and Christ alone, that Luther says that it's as if the gates of paradise itself were thrown wide open, and no longer did he hate

God, but he loved him, and he realized what a blessing the person and work of Christ was, and how much he had, you know, what kind of a gift salvation was, and that it was received entirely by God's grace and not at all by his works.

So yeah, that's one of the key verses for the Reformation, and I'm not saying had

Luther not run into that verse, you know, the Reformation wouldn't have happened, but you could certainly say that that was one of the key verses and one of the key moments and key people that sparked the 16th century

Reformation, that brought us basically kind of in a sense as to where we are today with our understanding of the gospel having been recovered by Luther.

Amen. We have Chris from Runnels, Iowa, who says, thank you for discussing this most invaluable epistle,

Romans. I understand that Romans chapter 1, verses 16 through 17, is most often understood as presenting the theme of the book of Romans.

I understand that in these verses, the righteousness that is spoken of is the perfect, the very perfect righteousness of Christ himself that is imputed to the believer, and also most likely the display of God's righteousness in that God's wrath is satisfied in the sin -bearing crosswork of Christ.

My question for Dr. Fesko is, first, is that an accurate understanding?

And then, what is up with the repetition of faith, faith to faith, in the

New American Standard Bible? I hope you're not mocking the precious New American Standard Bible that sponsors this program,

Chris. But anyway, or the publishers of it do, anyway. So, if you want to respond to Chris from Runnels, Iowa.

Yeah, no, first of all, yes, I think that that's an accurate explanation of the passage, and in particular, you know, when he, when these verses, when he says, for in it the righteousness of God is revealed, again, it's not the righteousness that belongs to God himself, but rather, as Paul elaborates in Romans chapter 3 and following, verses 3 and, verses, chapter 3, verses 20 and following, that this is the gift of God's righteousness that comes to believers through faith, and then as Paul elaborates in Romans chapter 5, that it's this righteousness that is imputed to us, that he is, you know, that he also explains that in terms of imputation in Romans chapter 4, verses 1 to 8.

So yeah, I think that that's absolutely right. As to the repetition of it,

I think it's a way of Paul emphasizing that it is faith.

Faith first and foremost and exclusively and only by which we receive this gift, and it's a way of emphasizing the importance of faith.

Another way you could say, for in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith, the only way we receive it.

And I think that that's how Paul emphasizes that when he says, from faith to faith. There are other commentators, such as N .T.

Wright, I think, that really give an erroneous understanding of that, or an interpretation of that, when he says, from God's faithfulness to our faithfulness.

I think that that's not at all what Paul has in mind, and especially Romans 3, 4, and 5,

I think really clear that up and make that an untenable interpretation.

So when he says, from faith to faith, it's a way of emphasizing the exclusivity of faith as the means by which we receive the gift of righteousness that comes from God through Christ.

Now, wouldn't you, without hesitation, warn our listeners that they should beware of N .T.

Wright? Is he not a false teacher in regard to the essence of the

Gospel, what the Gospel actually is? Yeah, you know, there's a sense in which at times it is so difficult to understand where he is, because he shifts around in things.

But at the end of the day, I want to say that I think that his teaching on the Gospel is unreliable, and therefore it's to be avoided and to be rejected.

You know, because when it comes to particularly his understanding of Romans, where he wants to define righteousness primarily as covenant faithfulness on God's part, which is an aspect of righteousness, but not everything that is entailed in it.

And secondly, he wants to define righteousness as covenant membership, which again,

I think, is an aspect of it, but it's not the main thing. And so what

Douglas Moo has said, a New Testament scholar who's written a massive commentary on Romans, or I think one of the better ones that is out there, you know, he says that what

Wright does is he foregrounds the background and backgrounds the foreground.

He takes the things that are most important to Paul and puts them on the back burner, and then takes the things that are secondary or tertiary, and he makes them as if they are the most important issue.

And I think that in that respect, it's confusing at best, but perhaps even more so, it's distorting at worst.

And I think that, yeah, you're right, it's untrustworthy. I'm hoping to one day get a debate on Iron Trip and Zion Radio with N .T.

Wright. He actually agreed to do one years ago, and it somehow fell apart because of a conflict in schedules with everybody involved, but hopefully that will happen.

And in contrast to N .T. Wright, Douglas Moo is a utter joy to read.

I'm sorry. Yeah, he's a great, great scholar. All right, we have, oh, thanks,

Chris in Reynolds, Iowa. You are going to receive the last copy of the commentary on Romans that we have been given to give away today.

Thank you, and please give us your full mailing address in Reynolds, Iowa, and that will be shipped out to you.

Compliments of our friends at cvbbs .com. And we thank once again our friends at Reformation Heritage Books for providing us with these copies that we have given away today.

We have Joey in Clifton, New Jersey. Sorry, Joey, that we don't have a free copy for you today as we ran out.

But you can get it from cvbbs .com marked down from $40 .70, actually, to $27 .99.

That's cvbbs .com. Joey says, I am a Westminster East student and appreciate your work.

Do you believe the new perspective on Paul? Oh, that's kind of providential. He's bringing that up after we just mentioned

N .T. Wright. Do you believe the new perspective on Paul is still a growing threat to the evangelical community's understanding of justification, or is it fizzling out?

Along these same lines, attacks on the reformed tradition of justification by faith will surely involve attacks on historic reformed interpretation of Romans and Galatians.

As you have written these commentaries, what modern challenges or errors have you had to face?

So let's take these one at a time. Do you believe that the new perspective on Paul is still a growing threat to the evangelical community's understanding of justification?

I think that, I want to say that I believe that it is a diminishing threat.

You know, about, I'd say 10 years ago or so, I think most every NAPARC denomination, that's

North American Reformed Churches, they issued study reports essentially rejecting the teaching of the new perspective on Paul, and specifically identifying what is problematic in its teaching as far as what particular specific claims that they make about the gospel is problematic.

Because, you know, it's one thing to say the new perspective on Paul and then make some grand sweeping statement. Not everything that they say is wrong, but I want to zero in specifically on the issues that are related to the gospel and justification in particular.

There are other things that we could mention, but those come to my mind. Those are most relevant for this question.

But as to whether or not it is a lasting threat or a lasting problem, that's tough to tell, and I always, you know, there's a sense in which maybe

I'm hobbled as a historian, but I always say, well, time will tell, but it'll be long after we're dead and gone.

Because these things, what I don't know is, does the internet and the existence of the internet really accelerate the false teaching cycle so that we get things that come up a lot faster, but they disappear a lot faster?

Or is it just, is it, you know, was it here for a while, it was a huge flash, but it'll kind of endure?

I don't know, that's tough to tell, but I think it is diminishing, and I hope that it goes away, because even now

I've seen some scholarly books here and there that are looking for quote -unquote post -new perspective on Paul readings of various things, so that even the academy,

I think, has grown past it. I don't think you'll see N .P. Wright give it up, essentially he's based his whole career on this, so I don't think he'll give up that ghost anytime soon.

Right, and unfortunately, when you have the holidays, such as Christmas and Easter every year, when you see these

TV specials that they air, they will typically, or very often anyway, feature apostates, atheists, and agnostics, like people involved in the

Jesus seminar and Bart Ehrman, and they will throw in N .P.

Wright as the conservative, because he's comparatively conservative, because he actually believes

Jesus Christ did indeed raise from the dead. In fact, oddly, he denies that Lazarus physically raised from the dead, and he teaches that Lazarus did not raise bodily from the dead, because that would deny that Jesus was the first fruits of the resurrection.

So he has a kind of an odd thing to teach, but anyway, you've been forewarned about N .P.

Wright. We're going to our final break right now, and this is much more brief than the last break, so please use this time to send in a question to our guest

Dr. J .V. Fesco, and we will get to as many of you that are still patiently waiting, and I hope you're waiting patiently anyway.

We'll get to as many of you as we can, as time will allow, but our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away, we'll be right back with more of J .V. Fesco and the book of Romans.

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Thank you so much. And we are now back to the final segment of our interview with J .V.

Fesco on his commentary on the Book of Romans. Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Joey of Clifton, New Jersey, who wrote in earlier, just has one more follow -up question.

But if you could have Dr. Fesco answer the second part about what errors on justification, aside from new perspective, he sees and addresses these days, what would be good, even if it's just in your discussion time?

Well, you know, that's what Paul addresses in Romans chapter 6, where he has just unpacked the nature of justification in Romans 320 and following, chapter 4, chapter 5, and he also explores its implications in chapter 6.

But, you know, one of the things he addresses is antinomianism, or the idea that if you are saved by grace through faith, then does that mean that you need not worry about obedience, that you can go on sinning, that God's grace would abound.

If God is in the business of forgiving sinners, and I'm a sinner, then we're in good shape.

I can sin, he forgives me, and all is great. And, you know, he always, Paul gives that trademark response of his, by no means, meganoico, it may never be.

And so that's, I think, one of the issues that we face in terms of understanding a right doctrine of justification, because as Paul, as he unpacks this, one of the things he shows is that, you know, to put it in Reformation language, that, and this is fresh on my mind from Owen, because Owen talks about this in the communion with the triune

God, that through Christ we receive the double benefit, or the twofold benefit of our justification and our sanctification, and that the

Holy Spirit indwells us and produces his fruit within us, so that far from the doctrine of justification being a license for sin, or for immorality, or as a cover -up for, you know, any kind of thing that the law of God condemns, it is supposed to essentially be, in some sense, the foundation of our

Christian life, because we recognize that because we have been justified, because we have been declared righteous, that therefore we go on to live, you know, godly lives, so that we can produce the fruit of holiness and righteousness.

Thanks again, Joey, from Clifton, New Jersey. Keep listening to Iron Trip and Zion Radio, and keep contributing excellent questions to the broadcast, and we also thank you so much for your financial support, which is very valuable to us.

We have Grady in Asheboro, North Carolina, who says, when sharing

Christ, sometimes I challenge unbelievers to read through the gospel of John.

However, as I speak with others, other brothers and sisters, I'm founding,

I'm finding, I think he meant to say, they've been brought by the providence of God to him, meaning

God, while reading through Romans. Would you suggest to unbelievers that they read through Romans instead of John?

I don't know why you would want to tell people not to read John. Maybe he's just meaning as an initial, because I know that even, there are even tracts that are just the gospel of John, because it contains such a rich wealth of theology in that one gospel.

But, if you could, respond to Grady. Sure. I mean, I think there's a sense in which you can say, regardless of what book of the

Bible you give them, you want to get people into the Bible. And, you know, I would want to set aside the whole issue of,

I need to present something that will give the hardest punch and the quickest results up front.

You know, if we set aside the whole kind of anxious bench kind of mentality, the idea that I'm only going to get one shot and I have to make it count, if I only get 10 minutes of their attention, where am

I going to put it? That may be the case in some cases, that you're only going to get somebody's attention for a few minutes.

But, if you've got somebody reading a book of the Bible, then, you know, whether it's Romans, whether it's the gospel of John, whether it's

Matthew, you know, whatever the case, you're going to find the gospel there, so long as you're exposing them to the gospel itself.

And I think that regardless of what book of the Bible you read, like Philip, for example, with the Ethiopian eunuch, he's reading

Isaiah, and he says, who's he talking about? Is the prophet talking about himself, or is he talking about somebody else?

So that, you know, you're always going to get questions, and when you get those questions, whether they're reading through John or Romans, you're going to end up with the opportunity to explain the gospel and to point people to Christ.

You know, myself, I think in the past, I've probably usually pointed people to the gospel of John.

I think it's maybe, it's got a slightly easier feel to it, a slightly easier read.

Paul and Romans at certain points is obviously a little bit challenging at times, so I might personally pick

John as a starter, but I wouldn't criticize anybody for starting with Romans, and I would just pray that God would use either one powerfully in the conversion of the unbeliever.

Amen. And thank you, Grady. Sorry we couldn't mail you a free book, but thank you so much for being a faithful listener to Iron Troupe and Zion Radio, and please keep spreading the word about the program in Asheboro, North Carolina, and beyond.

We have Murray in Kinross, Scotland, and he says,

I mean this respectfully, and I hope to buy your commentary anyway, but why would a believer already armed with commentaries on Romans by Hodge, Haldane, and Murray, and of course he doesn't mean himself, his name is

Murray in Kinross, Scotland, he means John Murray, why would people already armed with commentaries on Romans by Hodge, Haldane, and Murray also need

Fesco? And he said again that he means that respectfully. Sure, because my children need shoestrings.

That's kind of an antiquated slogan there that you used. Yeah, no,

I mean in all seriousness, I mean obviously if you've got limited funds, there are people out there, the theologians in the history of the church, that have written brilliantly on it, and you know, who am

I in comparison with Hodge, and Haldane, Haldane's one of my favorites, I really like Haldane a lot, or Doug Moo, I mean they're fantastic, but one of the things that I talk about, and I do talk about in the opening section of the commentary, you know,

Romans commentary fatigue, because I can hear people thinking, or groaning, oh no, not another commentary on Romans.

Am I adding to the glut? But I think a couple of observations on order one is that, you know, this is, every generation has to own the gospel for themselves.

They have to make it their own. They have to study these things and not take it for granted. So that's the first important thing, so that there's a sense in which every generation, we should be writing and reading new commentaries on things to make sure that we stay connected to the gospel and we understand it, and studying the scriptures afresh.

Secondly is that, you know, this is a commentary essentially that's hammered out on the anvil of the pulpit, in the sense that, you know,

I wrote this, you know, studied it, and I wrote it with a view to preaching it to the church, and not only preaching it to the church, but as the commentary series goes, ensuring that, you know,

I'm really pressing Paul's point to understand how it relates to the

Christian life. So in that respect, that there are many fine commentaries out there that are really deep in terms of their exegetical rigor, but they might be a little bit shallower, perhaps, when it comes to pressing those points about the

Christian life. And that's not to say that they say nothing about it, but what I really try to do is, you know, delve into those matters so that the person in the pew can walk away with a better sense of what

Paul is talking about, as well as how he or she is supposed to go forward and live the

Christian life. Amen. Thank you so much, Murray. Oh, wait a minute, I think Murray had a second question here.

Oh, yes. Do you believe that our concentration on the weightier doctrinal issues in Romans can cause us to forget that it is actually a letter written by Paul for a purpose?

You know, perhaps. I mean, I guess that would be somewhat subjective, depending upon the particular preacher and the person in the church.

But that, to me, is the brilliance of Lectio Continua preaching, of which this commentary series sets forth, is that, you know, you go through the entire book, and so, you know, when you get to Romans 3, 4, 5, you know, 6, and 7, and 8, and 9, those are certainly important, and they bring weighty doctrines to the table.

But on the other hand, when you get into 10 through the end, so 10 through 16, you're also dealing with significant practical pastoral

Christian life issues, Christian liberty, getting along with people in the church, evangelism, missions, preaching, you know, these are all important things, so that if you go through the whole letter, you're bound to run into those things, give thought to them, and see the importance that they bring, you know, that if Paul thought that this was the the outgrowth of the doctrine that he sets forth in the first part of the letter, then certainly

I think that that weighs upon us, and should weigh upon us, in terms of how important these things are for the church, corporately and individually.

Great. Well, thanks, Marie, and keep listening there in Kenroth, Scotland, and spreading the word about Iron Trip and Zion Radio in Scotland, UK, and beyond.

One other thing that I'd like to say about why read Fesco when you have all these giants of history who have written commentaries on Romans, a person,

I can't remember which guest it was, but he very, I think, appropriately said when he was asked a similar question, in fact,

I might have even asked it, about his own commentary, that it is a very beneficial and valuable thing for people to see two things that are in tension with each other, and they may seem to be contradictory in some sense, but they're not.

On one hand, it's valuable for people to see how throughout the centuries the unchanging word of God is still being proclaimed in the same way, and the same truths are there in the church.

They're being taught and uplifted in the church, in the body of Christ, and that shows harmony with the past and the present, and at the same time, no one who has written a commentary has an exhaustive knowledge or understanding of the unsearchable riches of scripture, and you may have a commentator or someone who's written a commentary,

I should say, on a book of the Bible who sees some insights that may have been overlooked by other great men, or he might bring to the surface some insights that some great heroes of the faith have said that aren't included in some commentaries.

So, I mean, those two things, I think, are valuable that go hand in hand.

Do you care to comment on what my guest had said about that? No, I think that's very true, and that's, you know,

I mean, you know, when I look here at the shelves of my office, I've got, I don't know, two, three, four books or commentaries on each book of the

Bible, but Romans, I probably have a dozen or more on that one particular book for that very reason, because, you know, you're looking to see, not everybody sees the same thing, and that's not to say that we're looking at something different, but like you said, it's like looking at the facets of a diamond, and what might catch one person's eye might not catch somebody else's glance, and so that, you know, together, corporately, it becomes an exercise in the churchly reading of the

Epistle, rather than just looking at it through the eyes of one particular individual at one particular time.

And like you said, I can't agree more in terms of, it's so important that we join hands with the church throughout the ages to recognize that whether we're talking about, you know, the 5th century, whether we're talking about the 16th century, or the 21st century,

Paul's letter, and more broadly, the Bible, is as relevant then as it is now.

It's still ever relevant. We're still living under the, you know, the weight and the blanket of sin as fallen creatures.

We still need the Gospel. Christ is still the only way to be saved, and so its message is ever relevant.

Amen. And I think that's also, it may seem like an entirely different issue, but I think it actually is harmonious with what you said.

I think it's one reason we should include Psalms in our worship, not that we are all, that we should all be exclusive psalmody advocates, but that when we include the

Psalms with our hymns, we are joining the church of all ages, and even the saints of the old covenant in worshiping

God with the same words. Yeah, no, absolutely. I couldn't agree more.

By the way, I just got word from Pike Lambeth, who is the president of the publishers who publish the

New American Standard Bible, that they are renewing their advertising campaign on Iron Sherpins Iron Radio, so thank you so much,

Pike, for that good news. It certainly does lift my spirits today. Thank you, brother, and we treasure your friendship with Iron Sherpins Iron Radio, and we treasure your translation of the precious, inerrant word of God, the

New American Standard Bible. Anybody who wants to find out more about the New American Standard Bible, go to nasbible .com,

nasbible .com, and please, I'm urging you, if you are in a congregation where you're looking at the

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Bibles, if indeed your church has Bibles in the pews. And that would help us as well here at Iron Sherpins Iron Radio, because you'll be giving more reasons for the publishers of the

NASB to continue as a sponsor of this program. Well, I want to make sure, before we run out of time, brother, that you have at least five minutes of uninterrupted time to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today, in regard to this precious,

God -breathed book known as Romans. Sure. I mean, it's certainly a breathtaking view,

I think, of the Gospel that the Apostle Paul presents, and he was giving it to the church at Rome.

And as I said just moments ago, that it is so important for us to understand what the

Apostle Paul is talking about, not only in terms of what he's preaching and teaching doctrinally, but how that has an impact upon the

Christian life. So often I think it's the case that we know our doctrine quite well, but the connection between doctrine and practice somehow becomes injured or severed, and we fail to make those connections.

But I think for myself personally, as I reflect upon this, you know, there are two chief things that come to mind.

This is not the only view, not the only things, but two of the biggest things that come to mind. First of all, in terms of Romans chapter 9,

I think that that's such an important passage, as challenging as it may be, that it really,

I think, confronts us with the sovereignty of God. And I can remember when

I was struggling with understanding issues of the doctrine of election, that I had a minister who was a good friend, but also who held my feet to the fire when

I was questioning the nature of God's sovereignty, and he said, hey, I want you to read

Romans chapter 9 every day for the next month, and if you have any questions after that, you know, come and talk to me.

But I don't think you will. And sure enough, I think within three or four days, I was like, okay

God, okay God, you are sovereign and I'm not, you're the creator, I'm the creature, you're the potter, I am the vessel that you have formed.

And so I think that that's one of the most important things that Paul's letter brings across, is the sovereignty of God.

And so often it's the case that I think we get lost, we look at things with the eyes of our flesh, and we don't see

God at work, and we tend to think that he has forgotten us, but he hasn't.

He's not only the God who is the electing God, as he says there in Romans chapter 9, but he's also the

God who cares and loves for us, as Paul so beautifully puts forth there in Romans chapter 8, in verses 29 and following, that he has predestined us to be conformed to the image of his

Son, and that those whom he has called he is also justified, and those whom he has justified he is also glorified.

So, and that there's nothing in this world that can separate us from the love of God in Christ.

To me, those are some of the most powerful words in all of Scripture, and all of this flows,

I think, from the fact that God is indeed Lord of all. That's, I think, one of the most pressing truths.

The second truth that I think that I find in all of these things is when

Paul expounds the gospel, and in particular, after he sat there for a number of, you know, several chapters talking about the sinfulness of humanity in general, and this idea that everyone has fallen short of the glory of God, and that everyone is sinful in his sight, you know, there's a sense in almost which you want to say that, you know, where is there hope?

Where can you find hope? And those words in Romans 321, but now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe.

You know, if there's a passage for me for which the gates of heaven swing open, it's there in Romans 321 where Paul talks about this outpouring of God's mercy, mercy through Christ that we receive through grace alone, by faith alone, in Christ alone.

And as Paul hammers this out, it's like in Romans 4, he mentions the word faith or belief,

I think nearly, I think it's 16 or 17 times, which I think really hammers the point that this is not something that we do, it's not by our works, it's not by our effort, but rather it's the free gift of God in Christ that we receive by faith alone.

And to me, those are some of the sweetest words that you can hear from the Apostle Paul, and the sweetest words of the

Gospel, to know that it's not by our work, but rather, you know, to borrow the language of the

Westminster Confession of Faith, chapter 14, and the nature of saving faith, it's by resting, receiving, and accepting the work of the

Lord Jesus Christ by faith, by trusting in what he has done. And so to me, those are some of the two of the biggest and most significant things that the

Apostle Paul teaches, and of course there's just a trove of other things that he addresses, but those,

I hope, are the two main things that people would walk away when they pick up Romans and read that, as well as when they look at my own commentary and read that as well.

Well thank you so much, Dr. Fesco, it is always a joy to interview you,

I look forward to you returning to Iron Trip and Zion Radio frequently, and I just want to make sure that our listeners have all the information that they need about contacting you.

First of all, you can go to Westminster Seminary California's website at wscal .edu,

that's W -S -C -A -L, C -A -L for California, dot E -D -U, and you could also, for more information about Reformation Heritage Books, who has published this excellent commentary, you can go to heritagebooks .org,

heritagebooks .org, and last but not least, cvbbs .com, remember they've marked down the price of this commentary from $40 down to $27 .99.

Please, if you're ordering it, make sure you mention Chris Arnson of Iron Trip and Zion Radio, go to cvbbs .com.

Thank you so much, Dr. Fesco, thank you everyone who has listened today, especially those who took the time to write, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater