Dan Corner & OSAS, then Passion of the Christ

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This is the dividing line The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us

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Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the

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Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation if you'd like to talk with dr.

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White call now It's 602 9 7 3 4 6 0 2 or toll -free across the

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United States It's 1 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 and now with today's topic.

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Here is James white Well and good afternoon. Welcome to the dividing line live this

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Tuesday afternoon 5 p .m Here in the Mountain West where it's I got like 72 or something today.

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I understand It's very cold where the rest of you are, but this is sort of how it works I'm afraid and you know, the day is getting longer already.

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That is just so disgusting It has not been cold enough yet If you all could package up some of that that cool air you all are experiencing and send it out here.

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We would appreciate it Because I know what's coming in just a matter of weeks sadly and it's a bad thing anyways, open phones at 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 if you are

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Obviously if you're listening, you've probably already seen the front page. I just updated within the last 10 minutes and Some of you have noticed the appearance of some some caricatures some cartoons a little bit of humor that Communicates something on the website.

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We've had a few folks who have no sense of humor who have complained but other than those few folks Everybody else has found the work of Angel Contreras to be wonderful as I do

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I just love this stuff. The first one you sent was the the picture of me And I thought it was great and so we've put that one up there and it's around the website here there and everywhere

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Then we got a caricature of Jerry Matatix on the house who issue If you're looking for it, make sure to go down the bottom of the blog.

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There's an archive there I'm going to need to divide that up And the one we've got right now is big enough.

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That's going to have to be the first section We're gonna start doing it by dates because there's so much stuff Which is probably just an absolute shocking thing to our

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Hawaiian representative Who's actually an Australian representative who's living in Hawaii Balthazar because he used to think that we never ever ever

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Updated the front page, which we didn't but now that we're doing it blog style. We do it all the time. So anyways

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The new one I just posted is so cool it It is about Dan corner and those of you who know about Dan corner we get folks who ask about Dan corner all the time and there is a

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Aomin org slash OSA s all capitals OSA s that HTML is An old file really?

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I mean I've added a few things to it over time I think I need to add this this caricature to it as well just for the fun of it

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But if you go there you can listen to the links to some dividing line programs that we've done and and the emails have gone

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Back and forth Dan corner has written a big thick book. I can see it over there the believers conditional security

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It's an attack on one saved always saved and and that that's his big thing and and he feels that book is absolutely unanswerable and it's it's just the the cat's meow and and so on so forth and I remember

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I first got hold of I first heard from because he sent me his email and said I'm going to expose you on national radio

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Loving folks, you know. Hi. My name is they start with that. So I'm going to expose you on national radio and so anyway, we went back and forth and You can listen to the dividing line we did where You know, he came up with this audio file about me and stuff and and it's really interesting

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When I expose his editing of what I had actually said and and things like that and just you know

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I just exposed him for being who he is. He will not debate the real issues He he says I only debate one saved always saved.

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I won't debate Calvinism. Well Calvinism is the foundation of that I'm sorry if you believe in that but you do not believe in God's predestinating grace

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If you do not believe that men are dead in sin, you don't believe that Jesus is a perfect Savior You have no reason for believing in one saved all the same.

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It's ridiculous I would agree with Dan corner that if you are not reformed believing in that is silly there's no question about it, but that's not why

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I believe in it I believe in it because of The exegesis text of Scripture and my belief in these other issues which leads me to that it gives the the proper foundation for all of that and So I have

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Repeatedly said if you want to debate the real issues we need to debate. Is there a decree of election? What is the nature of man?

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Is he dead in sin? Is he not dead in sin? Is this Christ able to save perfectly the nature of the atonement all those things?

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That's that's the issue so He won't do that and something happened back in st.

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Louis and a couple years ago you can listen to all that at the ailment org slash OSAS capitalized dot

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HTML and Look at that well the I Had never seen a picture of Dan corner and we asked with you

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I had no idea we looked like and for some reason we're sitting around channel chatting about I think we're chatting with angel about Different people that I've done debates with and it'd be funny to see this person along with this person

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And oh, we've got lots of ideas now. There's Hold on. There's more to come actually but anyway

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We were looking around us some of the folks that we'd like to have we don't have pictures of and so I For some reason

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I forget who it was. They just just popped into in the channel with hey Here's a picture of Dan corner. I had never seen them and so I go over to it.

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I'm like, oh no It is the end corner has the perfect pay face for a caricature

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The big old bushy beard and and it's just as soon as I saw it I knew oh boy

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I know what's coming and yeah, we do need to have you know, we that's what we need to start doing I saw on channel We need to have a link where we put all of angels stuff and on one page so you can just hear that our page

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Through them. I have them, you know a larger size. They're a little bit easier to read and so that's a good idea We're gonna do that. Anyway, so just before the program today

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I get an email and as soon as I see angels a name in the in the email line he gets

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He gets his emails open before anybody else does and here was a a

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Dan corner he had listened to the the whole link the the dividing line right exposed his editing his stuff and wouldn't come on the air and The fascinating phone call from the radio host lady who who came on yesterday later on the day you could you listen to it you'll see what

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I'm talking about and So bing -bang -boom here comes the the the cartoon and it is now right there on the on the front page, so It's great.

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I Just love it. This this blog stuff is just way too much fun. There's also also other neat stuff on on the blog

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I've got some neat links there that That you might want to take a look at I mentioned this week the

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Reformed Baptist Theological Review I mentioned I heard from John Piper who listened to My comments on the the passion movie

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I've been given John Sampson came through and gave me a DVD. I haven't had a chance to look at it yet I gave it to me yesterday.

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I've got by the house And it's a very I mean there's some money behind this very nicely produced

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DVD All sorts of endorsements from Lee Strobel and and all these people and I guess they're interviewing a

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Mel Gibson and The fellow who plays Christ in the film and who

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I guess played the Count of Monte Cristo That's the only person I that's the only way I know who he is Is he played that particular person, but there's lots of stuff going on there, and I made some comments about it

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I do think it's I'm very very excited that to John Piper has done What I what

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I sensed needed to be done and that is has written a book to to Fill in where the the film isn't going to fill in I haven't had a chance to see it yet I want to be able to get it as soon as possible, but it is going to give us tremendous opportunities of witness, but Not in the way that I think a lot of folks

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Are thinking it is I mean we need to remember this is the essence of what

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I said in my sermon We go Sunday night We we need to remember that while this is going to be a tremendously

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Emotionally emotionally strong film it's going to leave a tremendous impression When a post -modernist walks into a film like that we need to recognize that it's not going to be their standard operating procedure to Take that emotional experience and translate it into Truth they're not going to you know interpret it within the context of truth

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They're not going to have the rest of the New Testament's discussion of the the intention of the Atonement the purpose of God we have to fill that in and I think one of the dangers of the film is that it's going to give more impetus to a post -modern derived

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Ecumenism where truth is not relevant where look let's you know, let's just all get together

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Let's hold hands. These people are believing in Jesus well, what are they believing about Jesus if a

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Roman Catholic can watch that film and Then walk into mass knowing what the mass means

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Then they have not heard the message of the film if it is biblical They are instead are interpreting that within the context of A religious system that that removes it from its biblical roots and its biblical foundation

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So on so forth Like I said my sermon if all you see there is love or you see an innocent man being killed innocent men in the sense

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Of judicially innocent in our world good just men die unjustly every day

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That's not what the cross was about We need to see the wrath of God.

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We need to see the purpose of God. We need to see the love of God We need to see the sovereignty of God we need to see what the book of Hebrews says about the

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Atonement and we we as as believers need to get that message out there and unfortunately,

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I don't know that that's what a lot of Evangelical churches are going to be doing I get the feeling that many of them are going to be willing to Since the seeker friendly movement is willing to dumb things down that they're going to do the same thing with the

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Atonement and you end up with a lot of folks with an emotional attachment to a historical figure not repentance and faith in Christ and So that's that's an issue.

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It's coming up. It's coming up very quickly. I'm hoping that I'll be able to get a chance to see Dr. Piper's a book

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Fairly soon the link to the website is on the blog if you want to take a look at it

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All that stuff is there other neat stuff. I'm enjoying doing that blog I hope everybody else is enjoying it as much as I'm doing it.

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I know it's low -tech I know I mean there there's blog spot calm where you can have you know

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Responses and stuff, but yeah, honestly, I wouldn't have time for the responses Anyways, that would take us back to back when

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I would write these big long articles and we'd only update them every you know three or four months And most of time those responses back and forth are you know, just get into these huge debates

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That I just really wouldn't have time for anyway, so but it's not as high -tech as some of them are but you know what it works

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And I think a omen likes it because I'm the one who does it and I take care of it In other words, he doesn't have to worry about it.

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I don't I'm not sending stuff over to Over to him and saying here post this on the website.

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I can do all that myself and Somehow manage not to crash the site in the process and that's

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Really good a really good thing. So I try to throw something up there every day I obviously cannot do so all the time

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But I've actually been throwing stuff up there a couple sometimes Twice a day just stuff that comes along people send me neat stuff and if I have time to I'll try to get it up there and and and see what happens with it and Hopefully folks will continue to enjoy.

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Oh, come on It's not that we never had an article on the front page for nine or ten months

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That never happened Someone someone Correct. Mr.

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Mr. Astrophysics geek there. So anyway Hope you're enjoying that.

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I'm enjoying it Obviously we talked about lots of different things from lots of different perspectives on the blog and normally something there for for everybody

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I got a I got an email right before I went on the air And it was a link.

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I'm not really sure what the What the significance of it is, but it was an open letter from a

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Westminster Theological Seminary professor Doug Green Saying he it's in support of Tom Wright And new perspectivism.

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Well, that's wonderful. I you know, that's that's great and wonderful as I've looked through it Unfortunately as normal I I don't see the key issues that are really really being dealt with yes, there's there's some stuff that's being touched on but you know,

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I think what we're seeing here is the result of decades of Well, let's face it decay in our theological seminaries.

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And what do I mean by that? I've said it many times before when when

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Christian theologians See themselves in worldly terms when they see themselves not as servants of the church who have been given a tremendous responsibility a

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Tremendous privilege to simply serve the church and when they start thinking That the rest of the of the world out there is somehow

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Not opposed to Christ and his his lordship when we start making friends with the world in the sense of Adopting worldly methodologies and worldly standards and things like that you do that long enough and your seminaries are going to be ripe for this kind of a situation

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Where you have an obviously brilliant individual and I think it was last week sometime I saw later on Something was copied and pasted to me where where someone had said something in our channel and I hadn't seen it as they'd gone by somebody had referred to NT Wright as a

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Moron or something. I'm like, well you can't possibly believe that. I mean NT Wright is a brilliant writer

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There's no question about that He's done some great work in other areas. I don't find him brilliant as a historian of the

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Reformation I don't find him brilliant as one with a knowledge of what the Reformers did exegetically at all

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In fact, he says things there that are just absolutely positively Amazing to me that that he would do that But that's that's

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That's that's neither here nor there. The point is that He's not he's a brilliant guy, but the question is is his is his theologizing the same thing as doing solid meaningful consistent exegesis and I don't see a lot of folks focusing on 2nd

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Corinthians 5 Philippians 3 9 that would seem to me to be Where the focus needs to be that's where that's where things need to be to be

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Concentrated is on those biblical passages people say well, but you know what he says about the Galatians it fits real well.

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Well, you know This is another area if you don't if you've bought into the idea that you don't need to have a consistent

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Overarching theology and I don't know maybe that sounds like some sort of discrete proposition there It's a discrete proposition to say you don't need a systematic theology

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It is a discrete proposition to say all these things So I'm not sure you know why people get all excited about that But anyway, if you've bought into that you don't need a consistent theology

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You don't need to have a theology takes into consideration the entirety of the canon of Scripture then you can believe anything

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You can you can come up with any system and and make it quote -unquote fit in some areas and just not worry about when it

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Doesn't fit in others. So anyways, not overly surprising to see that Someone had just let me know right before I mean we're talking in 90 seconds before the program started my phone was busy

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In fact, just heard going off again 90 seconds before the program started

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I got a phone call that right at the end of the Bible Answer Man the Calvinism subject came up again

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In fact, our first caller may have heard that I don't know and that ironically

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The the book that was offered the person was by George Bryson without any reference to any other side

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So I found that to be interesting. I haven't gotten the book yet. Believe me It should come this week and hence possibly

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Thursday morning Once I have that book in my hand and I am able to determine

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That every time I was told read the book it ain't there We're going to have a little discussion believe you me and yes,

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I am going to contact George and I'm going to invite him to be on the program. I think it'd be a wonderful thing to do

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I'd like to see that that to continue And especially where it's just just he and I Do so and that would be a that would be a good thing.

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And maybe some of you who are trying to call in Would be able to would be able to do that.

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So anyway, ah Let me see here Bring bring what did my book arrive?

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Is this the UPS deliver or something next door? Maybe if it did Maybe I can maybe

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I can get it even even today though Obviously trying to read the book and do the program at the same time would be a bad thing so let's let's go ahead and Let's go ahead and head for our phone calls here at eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty one.

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Yes, I know I mentioned Balthazar had looked through it couldn't find Genesis 50 x4.

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I realized that I want to look at myself I also want to look for Isaiah 10 You know,

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I trust Balthazar's Examination no question about it, but I want to have it in in my hot little hand when

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I when I discuss it So let's go ahead and go to our phone callers and let's talk with Aaron in California.

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Hi, Aaron Hi Can you hear me? Okay. Yes, sir. Okay. I have a nice little consolidated thing.

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I wanted to talk about I Have a listen to the the Bryce and you and Bryce and talk back and forth till my brain is turned to mush

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I must have listened to each one 12 times by now. There's really no reason to do that there well,

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I am a neophyte at this and that's sort of the the topic

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I wanted to cover the Accepted theological Terminology for certain words used like when we call say

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God was responsible for something and calling them the author of evil what initially what

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I'd like to say is When it seemed like you clearly denied that God is responsible for evil in those debates and I would

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Channel I'm gonna take this thing down Trying to look at my notes and they're waving at me there

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Now if they're talking about God is responsible for evil as in he's accountable for evil

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That would be clearly ridiculous But if neophytes like me are are looking at this

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It sounds like maybe Calvinists are playing some double talk when we say yes, he decreed evil. No, he's not responsible for it

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It I don't know if you know what I'm talking about but well any theistic system that Confesses that God has absolute knowledge of the future has to develop what's called a theodicy theodicy dealing with the issue of the relationship between God and evil and Though the theodicies would break down between those who would say that God created

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Knowing that evil would exist and he has a purpose in the way that he created and in the evil that exists and that would require some type of a divine decree whereby

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The creatures that he creates are the ones who have the intention of doing evil.

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They love evil Desire evil they act in evil fashions and then God utilizes their activities to his own glory and to the good of the redeemed and to the demonstration of his justice and righteousness or You're going to come up with some other concept that in essence does not have a divine decree

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That then has to explain how God can have knowledge of future events. There's some of the various forms simple foreknowledge

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Middle knowledge the system developed by Molina, etc but in some way shape or form you you end up having to explain if you believe

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God has knowledge of all future events the Basis upon which he does and whether you want to try to affirm some libertarian free will in the midst of that So that it's the actions of men in time that determine the shape of the future or what else however else you want to put it

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And so the the term Responsibility or the term decree the term

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Author of etc, etc, at least historically and unfortunately, that's one of the reasons why there was really no reason to listen to the

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Bible Antiman discussion because one of the two people in the Bible Antiman discussion has no interest in maintaining

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The historical use of words. Mr. Mr. Bryson Feels for some reason that he can redefine terms as he sees fit

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It doesn't matter how they've been used whether it's by Westminster or or by Arminius or example

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I'm sorry like monergism monergism and synergism Exactly. These are these are historic terms that have certain meanings.

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He decides he wants to Not only change them but become offended by his reinterpretation of one of them so That's why

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I I wouldn't say it that's that's the best discussion to listen to because we never got past my answering loaded questions

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With loaded language and I never got answers to this to the direct questions.

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I asked so you can listen to one Yes, or no to answer seven questions. Well, yeah, and well not only that but I I just don't believe that that mr

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Bryson is familiar With a lot of the historical issues, I doubt very much that mr

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Bryson has ever cracked the binding of turrets and zealantic theology I I doubt that that he's really spent much time with that kind of stuff.

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He has spent time reading Calvin's Institutes Well, okay, that's fine But that's not the be -all and end -all of all things and I don't necessarily know that that's really joined with a lot of background

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Information that would allow him to understand that real well. So the the issue really

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Boils down to The regards to the questions you're asking the reason that people think there's some sort of doublespeak is because we're we

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Didn't get a chance to discuss the issue of the means by which

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God Accomplishes the ends that his decree envisions Ironically, it used to be that that on the

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Bible answer man. It would be said there is no such thing as a as a Rebel molecule a

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Molecule that's out of God's control that's not said any longer, but it used to be said that the

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God ordained the ends and the means and That is is what reformed people been saying all along that we have to differentiate between First causes and second causes and we have to recognize

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That God when he uses secondary causes Does so in a perfectly holy way so that when those secondary causes

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Commits evil they do not do so because God's intention is To make them or force them to be evil.

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They do it out of the freedom of their own heart They are doing what they are desiring to do and I tried to bring that philosophical concept into the into discussion

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Biblically by pointing to Genesis 50 Isaiah 10 and Acts 4 because in each one you have the clear

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Situation where humans are acting they have intentions they have desires in point of fact

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God has to restrain them He is restraining them from doing more evil than then his decree is going to allow

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But you do have them doing exactly what God's hand predestined to occur

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And so you have this compatibilism you have the ends and the means if you want to say well was

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God responsible for sending Joseph to Egypt God says yes,

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I was I was responsible for sending Joseph to Egypt now Then if let's ask one of Joseph's brothers were you responsible for sending

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Joseph to Egypt? He's gonna have to say yes, I was However, what was

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God's purpose in sending Joseph to Egypt to save many people alive? What was the brother's intention saying

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Joseph to Egypt to get rid of him? So you have one action the intention and purpose of one is pure and holy

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The intention and purpose of the other is sinful and is is self -centered and is not forced upon him but if anything he is restrained from doing more and Therefore with that in mind you can then ask the question

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Well, if we back up and say the action considered without anything else did

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God decree it? Well, of course he did. Oh, then he decreed evil for the purpose of good

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He did just as in the cross just as in Isaiah 10 just as in Genesis 50 now

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Someone wants to say I'm not gonna believe that fine You've just said you you refuse to believe the

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Bible show me what those passages mean from the text in in those contexts and Make sure that at least if you're going to represent what

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I'm saying You place it within the context of the of the exegesis that I've offered of those texts and not you know the the twisted

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You know raping little children stuff. That's that was constantly being thrown around I'm thinking that should there be a call for a change of tactics when you do

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Debates like this because um what I'm saying here is not not whether who who use the terminology, right?

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is there's going to be a lot of Laymen and and just plain amateurs at this stuff

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I mean, I'm someone who lives and breathes it and even I get tripped up with this stuff so when so should there be like because should there be a change in reform tactics because they're going to be

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While we're saying one thing The common usage of words in English language not not reformed language when we're talking about the theological terms of it is

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Going to be different. We will say no He's not responsible. He's not responsible for evil when if they're just saying are we is he responsible for the existence of it?

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Well, yes, is he going to be accountable for it? No, that's ridiculous We're not going to be going up Well, what are the

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Arminians going to do go up to heaven and arrest God for being as he's accountable for you Yeah But I don't

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I don't know how the the the tactic can be changed I mean if we're in a if we're in an actual debate

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We're both sides are given equal time and and are allowed to make an opening presentation to establish their own their own terminology

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That's one thing But that's not that's why you don't have debates on radio Unless you do it.

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The only debate I've ever done on radio Was on KIXL against James Aiken many many years ago. It was an actual debate because you had equal time amounts and you had cross -examination and Etc.

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Etc. Probably most likely just this radio show where Hank just absolutely tried to it You had I don't know if you noticed but he was answering

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Bryson's questions for now, right? You don't believe that now Bryson believes like this. Yes. I'm a moderator.

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Yeah, every everyone noticed that by the third hour the George was being was being

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Almost had big cue cards being put in front that was obvious No one no one missed that everybody saw that and and you know

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God's purpose was fulfilled in all of that that and that you know, I don't I don't bother myself too much about that.

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But Yeah, that's this is a radio program with callers and with callers you you have to keep things moving

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You have to keep a pace up, you know That means sometimes you don't really get an opportunity to really comment there are a lot of things that George said that I would like to have commented on and there have been many times that if I'd been the moderator of the program

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I would have stopped George after about 30 seconds of rambling and say excuse me, but that's not answer the question

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Could we get an answer to the question that was asked of you specifically? That's that's where we differ.

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That's that's just simply the nature of how things were done. But That that's how it went

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So I'm not sure how I could change my tactics other than not going on a program where I'm you know That's going to happen

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But then again, it's probably just this radio program But I mean an understanding that there were going to be did there

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You know, there's a lot of layman listening and they're just going to be taking the words at face value Well, but you know, but you know

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Aaron you you can't you can't worry yourself about that I for and and we need to run after this, but I you know,

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I understand that and when I was younger, I Really concerned myself about that kind of thing, but you know what

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I've come to learn That I simply have to speak the truth and I have to leave the rest in God's hands

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Especially if we live in a day where God's judgment is coming upon this nation for our our abject hatred of God's truth our abject rejection of the gospel and Throughout our land if that's the case then then we're going to see the truth maligned and misrepresented over and over and over and over again and if we if our blood pressure goes to the ceiling every time it

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Happens none of us are gonna live very long. I've learned the truth of what what I believe it was

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Spurgeon He said Christ's sheep hear Christ's voice and I I I debate for those folks

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I debate for those individuals. I trust the Lord to take care of them hearing What I'm saying and I recognize there could be people who are going to twist what

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I say and everything else Anymore, I've just gotten old enough to realize I've got to leave that in God's hands and go from there.

31:20

Hey, all right Thank you. All right. God bless eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty ones phone number got lots of folks online

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We'll get to all of them right after we take our bottom of the hour break. You'll notice there has been

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I'm sorry. Oh Okay, never mind. I guess I'm going to David in Singapore.

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Hello, David. Hey, how you doing? I guess this is probably costing you an arm and a leg, huh? David hi.

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How you doing? I'm doing good. That's very kind of you to hold the break for me. Okay, what's up? I just wanted to say hello.

31:53

Thank you very much for your ministry. Well, thank you very much for listening Say again. Sorry. Thank you very much for listening.

31:59

I'll try to speak up It's a weak line. Um, I my whole ministry has been turned around by some of your stuff

32:06

I'm not just particularly on the on the Reformation issues But just on just on doing what the text says right leaving what the text says they're not going for for the tradition

32:16

Well, I'm learning to have confidence in the Lord in evangelism I'm going to schools and doing schools work starting with the

32:23

Trinity now starting with the Trinity Ah, excellent, you know Christ Christ is the icon of God in a way we go

32:29

How do you know God and they just just complete confidence? I think a lot more confidence now excellent because we know if God wants one of them, he'll have them

32:37

Yes, he will irrelevant of my babbling at the front That's the first thing I wanted to say secondly.

32:43

I've been asked to call you to talk on your accent You've been asked what the call you to talk on your accent.

32:49

Well, you know, I've noticed that I sound pretty much like you do Don't you think the room seems to be a bit concerned about about what they call your

32:59

English accent Well, I understand that I wasn't gonna do it today, but now that you brought it up I'll go ahead and do it now.

33:05

That's like Dick Van Dyke. Is it that you're doing now Dick Van Dyke? I was like, oh blimey Mary Poppins Very worrying what

33:13

I'm more concerned about is your regular American accent, which is also a pretty bad distortion of English, but I Do you have anything specifically you want to ask you

33:23

I do We're talking about babies before because actually one of my favorite pastimes is chatting with with liberals on the internet

33:30

It's a little bit pulled before swine sometimes a little bit into some things that's coming up. It's psalm 137

33:36

Yes, I'm gonna get very excited to go Oh Psalm 137 verse 9 Hattie shall be the one that takes all little ones and dashes them against the rock

33:43

Right can't be the same God as Jesus. Can it Jesus is very cuddly. He doesn't bash, baby And so one of things

33:49

I'm trying to do is get a good apologetic for that and I wonder if I can just run something Past you okay And I wonder if the key to understanding something like Psalm 137 is actually on the further filling in we get in Revelation 18 about the um the destruction of Babylon Yeah, and I'm aware of that that that's the place to go and to say look this isn't just something that um, you know ignorant

34:11

Israelites were writing 700 years ago to justify their Babylonian baby bashing

34:16

It's actually it's actually the way that God is he will act in judgment against the persecutor of all of his children

34:23

Well, that's true I think the first thing that when when people bring that up the first thing I say to them is well, you know

34:29

I'm very thankful that in the Psalter I find God by his spirit expressing every aspect of the range of human emotion from the highest levels of of worship and thanksgiving to in fact the lowest levels of abandonment feelings of abandonment and here you have

34:51

The people of Israel whose whose children have been destroyed by these these these armies

34:57

They have their they've seen their their children their their wives their husbands killed and here you have an imprecatory psalm and there this isn't the only one there are other imprecatory psalms and People say well, you know what?

35:12

I I don't like that in my Bible I I don't like the idea of an expression of these things. I remember the first time

35:19

I went to Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church and I heard pastor Frey preaching and he still does this every once in a while But I think he did it more often in the past.

35:29

I'm not sure if Why that exactly is but I remember the first time that he was preaching about or praying about false teachers

35:37

And he used the biblical phrase Lord break their teeth Now when

35:43

I think about that, I just shudder. I mean just it's like drawing fingernails down a chalkboard Wow, well in the

35:48

Anglican Church, we pray for that conversion, but carry on But But the point being of course that that I I had never heard that and I had to stop and consider the propriety of that Outside of my just simply my tradition and my emotions and most people are just looking at this on an emotional level

36:13

They're not looking at it on a on a theological level Looking at it as as part of the human experience and so I think you would be right to point out

36:23

That there will be a day coming when judgment comes when when

36:28

God in fact sends the historically sent the people of Israel into a land that was filled with with unbelievable sin and rebellion and he had he had them wipe out every man woman and child and That you know people today just just cringe at that very concept

36:50

But the reality is that that's going to happen in in God's judgment in the final day as well

36:57

So it also takes place in time. So Indeed so those things are there and and it does deal with the the fact that Jesus said it would be better If a man had not been born

37:11

Then he offend one of these little ones and so there is a day of judgment and justice coming The stuff in Revelation 18, um,

37:19

I've been very good boy I've managed not to say psalms or revelations. I've noticed a bit in Revelation 18

37:26

Would that specifically be useful then this stuff about Babylon the whore and the punishment that's going to come to her.

37:32

Oh, well Someone to seven being about being about you know somewhere in point seven being about Babylon Well in the sense that Babylon is is used within scripture in that fashion of right of a picture of the of the

37:49

Of the world system that not only persecutes the people of God both in the

37:54

Psalter as well as in Revelation but but also is constantly seeking to bring unfaithfulness to the experience of the people of God as well

38:03

So within that context, I mean Psalm 137 has a historical fulfillment I mean, this is this is something that the author felt and experienced

38:13

Indeed. Well, so I appreciate your call from Singapore. I just want to Brother you're having you're having a profound effect all over the

38:20

Empire We're about as far across in the Empire from you as we can be right? I think we're about 30 now

38:25

Hey, excuse me. What is that an Empire the Empire? Well, I'm not quite sure which one it is at the moment

38:30

Empire Oh, is that it? Is that a British thought? Well, you'll have to talk to your president about that Okay, well, thank you very much

38:45

It's not dick Van Dyke I tell you If I came to Phoenix and said no, no that that's not being performed back to that that Calvary Chapel I'm really feeling

39:01

I'd love to I really am. Have you ever have you ever heard Martin call in Martin from from England?

39:10

I can't even understand him But the whole 250 million people just across the pond for a moment that we're having trouble understand

39:20

I'm not just the language. Oh my well, thank you, brother David.

39:25

I appreciate your call Even it's just at my desk in there. Well, thank you, brother

39:36

The dick Van Dyke accent, well, hey, you know, I like that program, you know, I thought that was

39:42

I grew up on it No, we can't how am

39:47

I ever supposed to like, you know, get a glass of water in like that whenever we do that kind That's terrible 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 we will get to our calls, but we do need to take a break and At least

40:02

I'm home. There we go. We'll take a break and be right back right after this Under the guise of tolerance modern culture grants alternative lifestyle status to homosexuality

40:28

Even more disturbing some within the church attempt to revise and distort Christian teaching on this behavior in their book

40:35

The same -sex controversy James White and Jeff Neal write for all who want to better understand the

40:40

Bible's teaching on the subject Explaining and defending the foundational Bible passages that deal with homosexuality including

40:47

Genesis Leviticus and Romans Expanding on these scriptures they refute the revisionist arguments including the claim that Christians today need not adhere to the law in a straightforward and loving manner

40:59

They appeal to those caught up in a homosexual lifestyle to repent and to return to God's plan for his people the same -sex controversy defending and clarifying the

41:10

Bible's message about Homosexuality get your copy in the bookstore at a omen or Millions of petitioners from around the world are employing

41:19

Pope John Paul II to recognize the Virgin Mary as co -redeemer with Christ Elevating the topic of Roman Catholic views of Mary to national headlines and widespread discussion

41:29

In his book Mary another Redeemer James White sidesteps hostile rhetoric and cites directly from Roman Catholic sources to explore this volatile topic

41:39

He traces how Mary of the Bible esteemed mother of the Lord obedient servant and chosen vessel of God has become the immaculately conceived bodily assumed

41:48

Queen of Heaven Viewed as co -mediator with Christ and now recognized as co -redeemer by many in the

41:55

Roman Catholic Church Mary another Redeemer is fresh insight into the woman The Bible calls blessed among women and an invitation to single -minded devotion to God's truth

42:05

You can order your copy of James White's book. Mary another Redeemer at a omen org

42:13

This portion of the dividing line has been made possible by the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church The Apostle Paul spoke of the importance of solemnly testifying of the gospel of the grace of God The proclamation of God's truth is the most important element of his worship in his church

42:29

The elders and people of the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church invite you to worship with them this coming

42:34

Lord's Day The morning Bible study begins at 9 30 a .m. And the worship service is at 10 45

42:42

Evening services are at 6 30 p .m. On Sunday and the Wednesday night prayer meeting is at 7

42:47

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42:53

Street in Phoenix You can call for further information at 602 26 grace if you're unable to attend you can still participate with your computer and real audio at prbc .org

43:06

Where the ministry extends around the world through the archives of sermons and Bible study lessons available 24 hours a day

43:43

Phone callers and the one who's been holding on longest is Matthew in Ohio. Hi Matthew.

43:49

Hi, Dr. White. How are you? I'm great. Um, I am a computer science student.

43:54

I just finished up an undergrad out at the Air Force Academy So they've sent me on to do a master's work.

44:00

Mm -hmm and There's a computer science student. You'd be amazed at how much

44:06

It really doesn't have to do with computers, you know It gets really mathematical at a point and of course once you go so far down that road it gets philosophical

44:15

And then theological concerns and Aristotelian thought and you know all kinds of cans of worms sort of come up hmm, and you know the

44:25

Christian you don't want to plant your foundation on Aristotle or You know

44:30

Plato or whatever, you know Kind of abstract concept it eventually goes back to say an artificial intelligence or whatever it is

44:40

Mm -hmm. So, um with you know with that said that's just sort of a quick little testimony but uh

44:46

When those kinds of things happen, I try to go back to the text and execute it If there's one thing

44:52

I've learned from your ministry, it's exegete the text yes, and I've been working through first and second

44:58

Samuel and they're they're extremely complex hard books for me to understand with the drama with David and Saul and Absalom and lots of those things going on and I guess the thing that sort of Got me hung up right now is the the spirit medium that Saul conjures up When I when

45:23

I read the text and I try to execute it there it appears as though Saul really succeeds in conjuring up Samuel spirit and I get this cognitive dissonance at that point because in in my mind for some reason and I couldn't point

45:39

To a place in Scripture where and I could affirm this but in my mind Samuel was one of God's own

45:46

Samuel was prophet Samuel passed on and you know moves into heaven with God or you know something out of this world and then somehow we have a wicked human being

46:02

That seems to successfully Bring him back to interrogate him.

46:09

Yeah, and I'm really sort of hung up and I just wanted to see if I could Get you to comment on that.

46:15

So maybe Just the situation in general there Yeah, you're talking about first Samuel 28 and I've heard a lot of discussions about it

46:24

I'm not going to claim any particular expertise outside of the fact that it seems that That first of all the woman is is shocked

46:35

Evidently, she doesn't believe that she has disability And secondly that would tend to make me think that the reason then that this is taking place is for the enunciation of the of the damnation upon Saul so that he knows

46:53

Why it's coming and who has announced it to him And so there's no question in his mind concerning the fact that the

47:02

Lord is behind this and that here's one who who knew him in life and That he is he is going to be

47:11

Damned and now he's added to this the the violation of the law in consorting with such a person the woman

47:20

I think is is was just simply a charlatan who Was absolutely shocked that this was taking place the fact that She cries out the loud voice in verse 12

47:31

And would not be something that someone would do if this was something that they actually were capable of doing

47:38

So that that's my understanding is is what's going on here is that God takes?

47:44

Saul's sin and he uses it to make make proclamation of his own his own destruction.

47:50

He's okay You know you want to go this way fine. I will I will use it and instead of you getting relief

47:56

You will in point of fact only continue to run into the very judgment that I have already proclaimed upon you

48:03

And you know from your your own guilt is part and parcel of what you're going to experience so that seems to be the the situation here

48:11

That it's not that this is a sinful creature who has this ability it seems to me that she's shocked that it actually happens

48:18

So God remains in control, and it's not that he's allowing her to have some special power or something.

48:23

It's just that He uses this to bring his message of judgment That's my understanding off the just off top my head

48:30

It's not a not a passage of ever preached on or spoken on and so I I automatically tell folks you know

48:37

Keep that in mind if you hear me preach a sermon on it someday That means I actually had time to do more study on it, and who knows well

48:44

Maybe I come up with something more more significant than that, but is that at all? Helpful I was just trying to narrow in I guess and maybe you know

48:55

This isn't even a huge important thing, but I was just sort of wondering with it really

49:00

Samuel spirit, or is it? Just say an apparition that God uses that happens to look like Samuel say would it

49:10

Would you imagine it would be possible say if you passed on and went to heaven right now that later on God would

49:18

You know God would do something such that he would say dr. White James, I guess

49:24

I'm going to send you back to earth because I need you to Tell someone something well

49:30

Where I was I was thinking well that doesn't really No, I wouldn't expect that I wouldn't expect that in the

49:36

New Covenant. I wouldn't expect that in the sense that I'm In Christ and enter into that that rest upon death

49:43

But but we're talking about special situation here Samuel obviously a special individual through whom scripture has come through whom revelations have come

49:51

Etc etc. It's a different different context And I the thing that makes me uncomfortable with that is with that idea that this isn't actually

49:58

Samuel is Verse 17 the Lord has done accordingly as he spoke through me For the

50:04

Lord is torn the kingdom out of your hand and give it to your neighbor today But this is just this is this is demonstrating to Saul Samuel was who he said he was the word you received from Samuel was reliable Why in the world are you now going to a spirit medium?

50:19

He instead he he does not allow Saul to to escape the the proclamation of condemnation that had already been there

50:28

So yeah, but I'm not God ain't sending me back. No It's funny how some of these things that you'd never expect to come up, you know, sometimes when you're

50:40

Conversing with you know people that that are sort of skeptics, you know, they'll they'll find these really

50:46

Obscure type things like that. And yeah, you know you get question. You don't have a good answer right away.

50:52

And yeah I just like to try to stay on my toes with With as many things as I can.

50:57

Well, I should mention that For many years as a young person my whole goal

51:02

The reason I never got to be in junior high school or in high school was I wanted to go where you went?

51:08

I wanted I want to go to Colorado Springs, but the Lord had other plans. And so I have great respect for the

51:15

The young men and women of the Air Force Academy. So I Exegeting and studying the text right now the way

51:23

I am I'd love to Be a part of ministry and reach people like you do one day.

51:29

So in that sense You wanted to do something that I did and I want to do Well, there you go, that's you know

51:37

The Lord has has his purposes why he puts each person where they are and I'm sure you'll have many opportunities of Serving him where you are doing what you're doing.

51:45

We need we need people We need Christian people and all all walks of life to live out their life

51:50

Before before the world and serve the Lord in that way. So remember whatever you're doing that whatever you do

51:56

You're not serving men. You're serving Christ and you'll receive that reward. So keep up the good work, sir I just gave you a salute though.

52:03

You didn't see it. Thank you. God bless. Bye. Bye. All righty. We've got two more calls

52:08

We got to keep keep moving here. Let's talk to David in Texas. Hi David. Hello.

52:14

How you doing, sir? Hey, um, yeah, my phone's kind of dying so I have to ask this real quick I can hear it beeping so make it

52:22

Make it fast. Yeah, my question is a unholy Baptism if it's for today or not

52:29

Well the the immediate Response I have is the only biblical terminology of that term

52:37

That we find for example in first Corinthians chapter 12 is that all of us have been baptized into one spirit

52:43

And so as long as there are Christians and as long as there is the church there is going to be

52:49

Holy Spirit baptism that is we all possess the Holy Spirit, but That's generally not how the term is used today outside of a biblical parameters

52:59

So I'd have to ask you what do you understand Holy Spirit baptism to be? Well, I come from a

53:06

Pentecostal church So they keep saying that you know, you have to be baptized the

53:13

Holy Spirit with certain signs accompanying that baptism Well, no, they say and what's the families of God?

53:21

Right really don't say anything about science well what I mean by that is that many

53:27

Pentecostals would believe that speaking in tongues is the only Verifiable External sign of baptism of the

53:36

Spirit and that is clearly not the case the scriptures tell us very plainly That every believer partakes the

53:43

Holy Spirit if you do not have the Holy Spirit you do not belong to him Yet when Paul speaks about speaking in tongues, he says not everyone speaks in tongues now

53:51

I realize that they have an apologetic they read the Bible to and what they say is well He's talking about two different gifts of tongues there.

53:58

One is the private Personal give speaking in tongues and prayer and the other is a public

54:06

Manifestation thereof. I do not find anything in Scripture that makes that kind of differentiation no basis upon which to accept that as as being a valid point and so When we when we talk about the baptism the

54:17

Holy Spirit if we want to be biblical David the the point is that every believer when they are regenerated receives the

54:26

Holy Spirit in fullness Now the gifts that the Holy Spirit Brings out in that person's life will differ from person to person.

54:35

Some people are given Discernment and the ability to encourage others and and so on and so forth

54:41

But there is no one who belongs to Christ who does not has not been Immersed in the

54:48

Holy Spirit in the sense of having the Holy Spirit dwelling within them There's no such no such thing as a person who does not

54:56

Okay, okay, all righty get that thing charged up because it sounds like it's about to die on you All right.

55:02

God bless David. Thank you very much for calling and we're gonna be able to slide in to Nathan in Oklahoma, hi

55:09

Nathan Hello, sir. How you doing? All right. It's a privilege to talk to you again.

55:14

I Don't think you remember but I called you at your house last summer and I felt really bad about that because I Just was asking you a question about seminaries

55:25

I was asking you that you could recommend any good ones because I Really respect you and I just am really excited about your ministry and what you do

55:36

And so it's just a privilege to talk to you. Actually, I do recall. Oh, yeah, so I do I still feel bad about that I'm sorry.

55:43

I should have just called you here on the dividing line and asked you but my question was as I was listening to George Bryson and Hank debate you on the

55:54

Bible Answer Man and You said some about divine decrees and I wasn't raised in the

56:01

Reformed faith per se more of a four -point Calvinist You know that limited atonement stuff wasn't you know

56:07

It wasn't real and that was wrong and Christ died for everybody kind of thing and right and also Dispensationalism versus I guess covenant theology and stuff and I really don't

56:17

I went to Bible school I'm a pastor right now, but man, that's why I need to go to seminary because there's just so much

56:23

I don't know and I've just been listening to your program and I've learned a lot But one thing you said that I had a question about was how

56:30

God knew or not how he knows what's going to happen Mm -hmm in the sense that it's part of his decree.

56:36

Yes, and I guess my question is obviously I'm in agreement with the Salvation aspect that the father chooses the son redeems and Holy Spirit fills and I understand that but I guess my question is on God's decree does he decree like everything like the socks that I put on today or You know that I called you today on the program.

56:57

Is that does that make sense? I mean, yes, it does It does and let me give you a quick answer because we're close

57:04

Let me put it this way there are a lot of folks who would say well, you know

57:09

I I like the idea that God decrees big stuff But the little things the problem is very often the little things are the things that determine the big things

57:18

I don't believe that there is anything that comes to pass that is purposeless in this world

57:23

Let me give an example since you use the socks example. Let me let me use something a little closer to my heart That is a tie.

57:30

I wear I wear outrageously bright loud ties fractal ties rush limbaugh ties

57:35

I figure if you're gonna wrap it on your neck, it might as well be something that's pretty So let's say one day

57:41

I put on one of my rush limbaugh ties. I get into an elevator I look over and the guy standing across from me is wearing the exact same rush limbaugh tie

57:51

We both start laughing because people who wear limbaugh ties recognize each other that way and we start talking and we go down to the hotel

57:58

Lobby we go into the restaurant. We sit down and talk. I share the gospel with him and he is saved now

58:05

We would we at that point we go. Well, okay at that point then it's all right that God Did that that God Had that particular tie in mind and that's how he brought things together, but I don't want that to be every day

58:21

Well, why not? What's what's the problem with that? The point again is is God's decree is not forcing me to do something

58:29

I'm acting on on my desires, but the issue is it can we identify anything?

58:35

That's going to somehow be so minor that God just simply throws it up in the air and says well

58:41

Maybe maybe not If God is glorified in everything that takes place

58:46

Then I would have to believe that when Paul says who works all things after the counsel of his will in Ephesians 1 11 that I'm uncomfortable saying that all isn't all that that all is is mainly big things or only big things or things that only have a a

59:04

Impact way down the road. I Understand, you know, the question is being asked, but I don't see any reason why

59:12

Those passages that speak of God's exhaustive decree Then when it says all things that it doesn't mean all things.

59:21

So Hopefully that can give you some some sense of where we're going there and I really and Nathan don't worry about last year.

59:29

It's Okay, I do I when you asked if I had a problem or something

59:35

I was like no I just really look up to you and I was like man. I just wondered what you thought about that Well, we had a night.

59:42

We had a nice conversation. I recall that and and so don't don't worry about that I'm glad you're listening and I hope the

59:49

Lord will give you an opportunity to Continue your studies. I know some tremendous Theologians who never went to seminary because they were so self -disciplined in their own life

59:59

That they they learned the the materials out there There's there's great advantages of getting to meet with others and things like that, but the materials there so Continue to to pursue that and and that'll be that'll be wonderful for you.

01:00:13

We actually got a little bit over time Thanks for listening to the dividing line today I appreciate your participation when we have callers the hour goes very very quickly

01:00:20

And of course that that keeps the topics moving and hopefully addresses more of the issues that people want to hear

01:00:27

So don't forget Thursday morning at 11 a .m. We do the dividing line all over again.

01:00:33

Who knows? Maybe I'll have George Bryson's book by then and I'll be able to make some comments. Don't forget the blog You never know what's gonna show up there on the web blog at a omen org.

01:00:42

Thanks for listening. God bless 602 nine seven three zero three one eight or write us a p .o.

01:01:55

Box three seven one zero six Phoenix, Arizona Eight five zero six nine. You can also find us on the worldwide web at a omen org.

01:02:03

That's a o m i n Dot -org where you'll find a complete listing of James White's books tapes debates and tracks join us again next