Gene Cook's Impromptu Interview with Ruben Israel

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

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Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed

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Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with dr.

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White call now It's 602 9 7 3 4 6 0 2 or toll -free across the

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United States. It's 1 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 And now with today's topic here is

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James white I saw it on James White's website, okay

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And I was wondering were y 'all at Salt Lake I was at Salt Lake I was at Mesa and Unfortunately at James White You know as a

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Calvinist You Calvinist. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah Why would James White leave?

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Why would he take off and not do the Mormons? There's a few of us show up. I don't know That is of course

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Reuben Israel or Reuben Chavez. I think his actual name is and why

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Why would we not show up because a few of us show up well, let me just play a little segment of the quote -unquote biblical preaching of Reuben Israel Chavez This is posted on the blog.

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I'm just I'm just playing this straight off of God tube You tell me if this is preaching the gospel

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Literature There's nobody who has a voice as big as as Reuben Israel the man's chest is a as a natural megaphone he's built for making lots and lots of noise and And he can and that's him outside the temple

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Talking to the Mormons and I he's you know, he's not talking to Mormons about their faults God or anything like that he's he's holding a sign about me and he's just about to be joined by a fellow in a bald cap and Lonnie Percival was standing next to him and this is this is what they they call preaching and then they ask

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Well, why wouldn't he be up there at the Mormons? Well, it's real simple. We take witnessing to Mormons Seriously, this isn't a game.

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This isn't entertainment you dress in a way that the Mormons will see that you you you respect them and you study their beliefs so that you can

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Speak their language and all of this so that you can rightly handle the Word of God and respect them

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That's that's what it's all about. But this is this is this is Reuben He won't give it to you free he's got the truth and the

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Bible does say free There there's there's

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Reuben Israel and I wonder how many free copies of Letters to a

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Mormon elder we gave out over the years up there many many of them, of course He wouldn't know that and honestly wouldn't care

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But when he talked with with Gene Scott, which is what we started off listening to he just seemed the

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I'm Gene Scott Gene Cook Gene Scott. Yeah, Gene Scott's dead. Gene Scott had Transchanneled himself into where were they at some there was something in San Diego, weren't they some what was that?

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Do you remember what they're at? I I saw it. But anyway, Gene Scott Gene Cook. Sorry, Gene Always do that.

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Oh who cares? Anyway, he was just the absolute picture of Civility and and and quietness and and so on and so forth and a real contrast, isn't it?

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I mean And he wants to call us a cult Why would he turn us over to the

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Mormons? Turn us over to the Mormons. It's like turning the Mormons over to them I mean, that's that's a bit shocking

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Shocking No, he says he wasn't ever gonna go to Salt Lake and he said he wasn't ever gonna go to Mason Until these guys go get a job and and something like that.

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Yeah I would go if the devil himself was there That would be like me saying if James White doesn't show

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I'm not going now What is it that you have against? I mean James White's a Calvinist But what is it that you have against James White other than the fact that he's a

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Calvinist? Actually nothing in the sense that Yeah should have actually talked to us you mean like when we were in Salt Lake City and when we have pictures of me standing there talking to them and trying to reason with them and asking them about Hebrews 1317

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You know, who are your elders? I want to talk about Jesus our elder, you know That's the same time where you know

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Lonnie comes by and smacks me in the head with a sign and you know I mean that type of trying to talk to them

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Ruben. Is that is that we were talking? Yeah, that's that's called pure bald -faced lying yeah, that's that's called pure falsehood

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Maybe Ruben just has a bad memory about things, but we have these things called videotapes pictures and Multiple witnesses and things like that, you know

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Warren Smith is in the picture standing there right next to me as I'm trying to reason with these people from the scriptures and things like that and We've all seen the result of that Lonnie Percival standing outside the

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Phoenix Perform Baptist Church on Easter Sunday morning And what's he preaching about how I'm not a

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Christian and and things like that. And yeah, that's that's reason So the church has 40 chapters

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Yeah, that's how you define the New Testament Church is by how many chapters you have

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I Wonder who their elders and deacons are and when do they meet and do they have the

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Lord's Supper and that they baptize and is This a church now, I see the confusion between what a church is and what an organization is

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Might indicate some some fundamental problems on on Ruben's part as far as a biblical theology is concerned

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Yeah, I'm a bit envious

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Yeah, I'm envious because I you know for 18 years went up there and did it and it never crossed my mind that the most effective way of meeting the more of reaching the

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Mormons would be to stand there with signs that have almost nothing to Do with Mormonism at all and wave

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LDS temple garments at Mormons. I Yeah, I I'm really envious that I had not thought

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To be able to do that. I it just never crossed my mind that that was the most effective way of getting those

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Mormons was to was to yell out in fact, let me let me scroll down here and There is there is another one here.

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Let me see if I can find it. I didn't queue it up so it's gonna take a moment for for a

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God tube or YouTube or whoever to come up with it, but I do have an example of Ruben Israel's Preaching To the

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Mormons that that I evidently is something that I I feel I need to learn to do this

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I'm envious of of these folks and and their ability to here it is. Here it is.

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It's actually on YouTube. So let me let me have it queue up here a second and You can list the fact that this is on if you all want to go and look at this right now

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This is dated But we did a lot of stuff that day for seven 2007 if you'll go down underneath the picture of Dave Armstrong in the tree

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You will find a an entry and it is marked a newspaper article and Underneath it.

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You will you will see this is where I get my head whacked, but you'll also see a picture of Ruben He is the the fellow there in the shorts and He's holding a sign about false teachers or something like that And he's basically just yelling at the

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Mormons is what he's doing And I believe the clip starts off with him what he's what he's saying

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This is this is your wake -up call Salt Lake that's not the one I wanted I I wanted the one Oh, here it is.

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Here. It is. It's down below that This is actually Diddy diddy video evidence from the 6th the day before as video evidence

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And that the terminology he uses is Bring him young bring him young is supposed to be

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Brigham Young. So here's here's here's this one You There there you have

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Ruben preaching and you can see All these Mormons streaming by and and just hundreds of them are repenting right there

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They're hitting their knees and they're praying the sinner's prayer I mean just the the they have them they have a mega church in Salt Lake now of the people who've been converted by that kind of preaching outside the temple.

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It's just huge, isn't it? You know I got to chime in here because I grew up in Prescott, Arizona and one thing about Prescott is it's one of those small towns where you've got the big public square that everybody gathers at for The we had a large four -square gospel church there

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And it was very very common for street preachers from the four -square gospel church or the door to come down to the city square

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And and street preach and the interesting thing about how my Recollection of growing up with those guys down there was they had something that these guys did not have

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I've never seen people actually stop and Stand there and listen

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And I think you know, I Harken back to that and I listen to that in my head and then

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I listen to these guys in my head Here's an idea when you preach a sermon have a point it makes it so much more interesting for the

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There were some people who stopped in Salt Lake. They just wanted to get into a fistfight Well, there are they weren't listening to any substance of what they're saying because they weren't they weren't saying it was substance

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But your street preachers a real street preacher actually has the ability to gather a crowd

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Well, there was a guy there was a young guy years before this At the South Gate of the

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Mormon Temple and he stood up on one of the planters Yep. Yep, and he had a set of pipes on him first of all man alive

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But he actually preached and he was thoughtful. It was thoughtful. It was clear.

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I could Know it had to be succinct because people are going by But you could hear him from one side of the street to the other and by the time you crossed you actually heard something

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It wasn't abuse. Yeah He wasn't dressed like he had just gotten off a worksite someplace

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No, and that's the difference between the two just massive difference between the two. Yeah, so let me

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I noticed that Gene Scott, I mean gene cook is on the line Sorry and Poor gene gene gets picked on by everybody, but we need to finish listening to genes impromptu interview

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With Reuben Israel Chavez before we can Recover his is his reputation after being associated with cigar smoking guys with big glasses poor poor gene, but let's let's

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Yeah, nobody's listening to me anymore Reuben's come to our debates

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So he knows that we have this room full of people and we're debating Mormons that he would never do that He could never do it.

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He knows he could never do that. But but nobody's listening anymore. Did you have something you want to? Well, I I was going to point out that when

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Reuben and I think Lonnie was there and one other fellow to whom I don't know his name when they showed up I They had threatened earlier that day in Salt Lake that they were gonna show up Yes, they did and they did we had we had to let security well

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They didn't know do it in a very nice fashion is the way. Oh, yeah I was expecting trouble and they had made it clear.

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They were gonna make trouble Yeah, they didn't but part of the reason they didn't was when they showed up and of course you were speaking at the time

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I was I made a beeline for them and you're like, oh my gosh, what's rich gonna do?

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Yeah. Yeah Yeah well There's a part of that video that is played is is you I think you took of them sitting in the back

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While I'm making presentation during right and so I went over and I had a little chat with Reuben and I basically said

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I've got Some police officers here and they weren't they weren't security They were campus police and I and I said if you guys do anything to disrupt

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These men over here will remove you I have pointed you out to them

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And yeah, I remember you're welcome to stay if you behave yourselves And he just nodded said anything else and I said no and he went over and said yep

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They just sat there and listened and they know Every single one of them knows they could never engage that debate.

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They could never have a Addressed any and because they've been more than one because I remember the first year they came to I think the one with sharps

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Some of them came to that one at the hunter high school and they they came up to us and said hey

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We were there and you know, good job. La la la, you know, there was it was all brightness and light the first year

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But then they started getting you know Rubinish but anyway, they know they could never do that.

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So here he said well, you know, he's just passed out of literature nobody's listening to him and Yeah, all the people around them they're angry

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That was actually the guy in the bald cap yelling out I love Gail Kiplinger, he didn't know who it was

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I can't remember. What happens is we have places where we make our banners So I can put a banner right now

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I had said before the second time we were going to try to make lemonade out of lemons.

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That's a that that's called That's you know, it's a metaphor it's supposed to mean we'll try to make something positive come out of the negative and and they even have a shot of Lonnie Percival You ain't making no lemons lemonade on us boys, you know

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It's like I'm glad I didn't use Shakespeare that really would have gone over. So we caught that And unbeknownst to him we do actually have meetings

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And we actually had a meeting that said guys gonna do something We're not going to stand around Take the offense.

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So we make two banners with his own quotes out of his own book and then we went and preached

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Yeah, we just heard the preaching we went and preached that guy's brain so big his hair fell out that's that's the preaching of Reuben Israel Now I have a question for that comment because if he can thoughtfully sit down and make up signs and take quotes from your own

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Books. Yeah, why couldn't they have done it with the Mormons? I don't know. I good question, you know, here's an idea

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Let's have a site I mean what they don't realize is that we actually have a past where we have held signs yeah for the

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Jehovah's Witnesses and one of the signs that comes to my mind is a sign where it has

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On on there Stephen prayed to Christ. Can you and then a reference to the book of Acts and then a reference to a

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Watchtower article that says you're not supposed to pray to Christ, right? Now if a

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Jehovah's Witness sees that it might actually have some meaning to them. That's right All right, and if a

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Mormon walks across the street and hears They call him Brigham young Brigham young because he likes to bring him young What meaning does that have to the

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Mormon that means that that person hates me that's all it means Yeah, God buy our stuff how many thousands of tracks how many copies of letters to a

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Mormon elder have been distributed gratis in Salt Lake City in a Mesa and How many people have we talked to I remember

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I remember the situation where Years after we passed out one of my books and wasn't even letters to a

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Mormon elders. God's sovereign grace To a man in Salt Lake City. I think it was five years later his wife contacted us having been converted to the faith to the ministry of that book and That I you know, we still know where that person is and we got them plugged into a local church

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Where are these hundred and hundred and fifty people a night that Lonnie Percival claims have been converted by their preaching?

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Where are these folks now? I'd like to like to get some names and addresses We go Yeah I would say unfortunately,

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I think he has a little bit of some of the people in Mesa said that oh, yeah Some of the people in Mesa said We cost the

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Mormon Church Sorry, I have you all you're mocking them.

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I'm sorry. There's some things are just so silly Do they really think that the only reason that they created that park?

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There it's not like because of them. I mean, yeah, they've caused all sorts of a stink up there

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No two ways about they've they've they've caused a stink But they actually think that somehow is a good thing.

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I Mean they they I can guarantee you after I debated dr.

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Potter at the University of Utah a few years ago an Older Mormon man came up to me and he said

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James, please Stop doing debates up here.

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I looked at him I said why he says we have no one who can debate you.

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I Have attended each of these debates. You've won each of these debates. We don't have anyone who can stand toe -to -toe with you

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I still don't agree with what you're saying, but please stop this No one's ever walked up to Reuben Israel or Lonnie Percival or any of these guys and said that not once so which has more value making the

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Mormon Church had to buy Main Street to get rid of us we've cost a millions of dollars or Individuals who have to deal with the reality that we can stand with their best in public debate

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And they have no one who can answer the objections. We raised Mormonism. You tell me in the long run

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What has more value from an eternal perspective Yeah, and and and Ruben think about it

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When when the gay pride folks showed up in Salt Lake they got the same coverage for crying out loud and for the same reason

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It's the exact same reason. It's it's the freak show You're getting freak show coverage not because what you're saying has any impact whatsoever on the claims the

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Mormon Church That that's the sad part about it No one ever showed up to cover us as a freak show

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Because we didn't make ourselves look that way or we didn't act that way We didn't swing

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Mormon temple garments around at people and yell it shouldn't be Mormon. It should be moron

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You know that if you think that getting coverage for that is a great thing Well that that sort of explains things, you know

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No, they do not make the same argument as white

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I mean if all they're saying is well We think Mormonism is false. Great. Wonderful. That's not the same argument

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We are dealing with Scripture, I remember I stood there and it was

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Ruben himself on the Let's see, it would be the north side of the

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North temple outside of the meeting house. I think it was either the first or second time.

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They were there I I can't remember which one it was now, but I Stood back and watched a

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Mormon shred him take him apart biblically tore him to shreds

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Ruben can does not know the Word of God well enough to deal with these people and I stepped in and Responded to what the man said

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Ruben couldn't do it. He didn't have the ability to do it Now what's making an impact on those

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Mormons? That's what I wanted I Think it would be great if we could work together now, let's let's let's remember something here

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When we were in Mesa just a few weeks ago One of the first things that people those people said now

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Ruben wasn't there this time It was Lonnie Percival was the primary guy out there and one of the first things that one of their people said walked up to me and said

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I just want you to know that I hate Calvinism almost as much as I hate

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Mormonism That's first thing okay, we're standing there and when we would

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Have a conversation with someone when someone would stop to talk. They'd yell don't hand him a track

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James He may not be of the elect from across the street You tell me how in the world are we supposed to work together?

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when these people are holding signs saying the New American Standard Bible and the Quran and the Book of Mormon are all from Satan and I'm a critical consultant a

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New American Standard Bible. You can someone deal with the logic here, please I'd like to I'd like to see where this comes from absolutely positively

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Just just just amazing just just amazing to me well, okay Let's I need to take my my shots here now for the fact that that I keep missed

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It's Southern, California, man Scott was over there poor Jean stuck over there it you know those of us outside of California It's just they're they're all it's it's a granola state.

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You know and so I get confused. I'm sorry Jean hygiene Welcome to the program. Thanks James Yes Cook cook not

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Scott. Yeah, there's a difference there that you add theologically too. I think I think so Yeah, are you and are you into cigars at all

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I am Okay, there's the difference maybe that one difference will help me to And I'm not

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I'm not into Clark Pinnock too much either. I Yeah, okay. Well, it would be another different actually someone you debated recently seems to be but that's a whole nother issue

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Yeah, now when you say that Reuben Israel look like he just walked off the job site.

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Are you making reference to his construction boots his overalls his flannel shirt? or his tool belt That's not really a tool belt.

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That is a very Specifically designed sign carrying weight distribution device that has been

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Scientifically designed to make it possible to hold that thing for hours and hours and on end. Yeah, but Yeah, especially

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I thought the shorts and the and the the boots in Salt Lake were just you know

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You know just such a good addition the scripture does say be Be sure and be a workman that needs not blush.

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So oh well there you go You know, I hadn't thought about that. I appreciate that deep exegetical

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I'm thinking that this is it this has to be a different Reuben Israel No, because the guy that I talked to was just a big teddy bear.

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Yeah, I know. Uh -huh Yeah, I know and then I'm listening to the clips that you played and I'm thinking that's got to be a different guy

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Unfortunately, I saw the picture that you had and let's let's let's admit Reuben's a unique looking fella.

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Okay, and So no, that's the exact that's the exact same one and unfortunately

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Yeah, there is a vast contrast between the behavior of the two. I think maybe

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The fact that one -on -one is a little bit different than one -on -five That might have something to do with it.

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But no Reuben can be can be quiet When when they showed up the debate as rich was talking about, you know

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They didn't have to yell and scream or anything like that. So They certainly have the ability to turn it on and off But he certainly has the ability to turn it on as well.

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And that's the clips. I've been playing. Yeah Well, he seemed anxious to be on the same team as you so Yeah, I know

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And then of course, you know, I you know, I don't know gene you tell me I did you do

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I really strike you as someone who's you know, just a little bit jealous of Those guys and no

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Not not in the contact. I've had with you Don't strike me as somebody who would be jealous of a street preacher that's got a sign that says

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God hates fags But yeah, no, is that what he was carrying that day? No, but that's what he had the year before. Oh Yeah, that's what he had in 2006.

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So when I saw him on your website I'd already seen him down there the year before so I put two and two together and then

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I walked up and he was Standing there. I think I caught him when he was taking a break. He was just kind of leaning back, you know

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He wasn't yelling or anything but Yeah, I figured you'd get a kick out of that that little interview there.

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That was interesting I I was sent it right before I went up to Anchorage and so I thought you know at some point

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I got to play this and contrast it with well with the same guy Yeah, and it's the it's the contrast of the two that I think makes you go.

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Hmm. That's that's that's most interesting So exactly. Yeah, how many guys do they have down there?

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Do you remember? I saw about four okay, or five guys at the most and They were doing the same old thing, you know yelling and screaming and now what was that again?

29:30

What was that was called Earth Day? Oh, okay. Yeah, and they have a big celebration it's a freak fest down in Bellevue Park, which is a

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Public, you know, it's the San Diego equivalent to to What's the park in New York the big one?

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Yeah Central Central Park right kind of like that in San Diego.

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It's a huge park with museums and everything but We go down there every year and do some evangelism and talk to different people, but not to shift gears anything

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But I'm really looking forward to the cruise. It's going to be coming up in October. Yes, I'm looking forward to it as well

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We've got some additional people that have just recently signed up. And so we're looking I was just up that neighborhood man.

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I'll say it's a beautiful part of earth So yeah, it's just gorgeous. But of course,

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I'm gonna be sort of busy during that period of time So I'm not sure how much of it I'm gonna be seeing but I'm looking forward to it as well

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And in fact, we're gonna be getting back to the Shabir Ali debate here later on the program So we'll we'll press forward but guess who has contacted me trying wanting to work out a specific debate

30:33

You're open theist fellow from Colorado No, not

30:41

Steve Gregg, we are trying to work something out with Steve Gregg too, but Yes. Yes, you know what?

30:47

I'm telling you I was reading some of your comments and you were saying that you were amazed that Steve Gregg was not an open theist.

30:53

Yes well, I talked to a guy that's very close to him and he said a guy that communicates with him all the time and he

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Said that he's not ruling out the possibility of open theism. Mm -hmm Well, I can't

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I can't possibly say not but he made specific statements in that in his nine -part series

31:12

About God's knowledge of future events. So he'd have to change his viewpoints on that, but he'd be more consistent

31:19

He would be more consistent. He would and no two ways about it. Well, hey, thanks for the call,

31:25

Jim I'll try to you know, get better on that, you know, you need to have a name that's you know Bland like mine then it's easy to remember

31:32

Cook is pretty bland. Well, yeah, but so that Gene Scott guy man, you're over in the same area

31:37

So just you know, he just got to get out of his shadow and my wife's name is Melissa too. Can you believe that? Oh Okay I'm joking

31:47

All right. All right, man. Thanks a lot. God bless. Bye. Bye. All right, Gene cook of The narrow mind has joined us.

31:56

They're not the narrow path. That's different. It's the narrow mind and He has the the twilight zone theme theme music.

32:03

We have Steve camp. I'm not sure if that means anything but anyway, let's go ahead and take one more call here and then we'll sort of Shift gears get back into something else of very

32:16

Important interest I think let's talk with Mike. Hi Mike. How you doing? I'm doing great.

32:21

Thank you. How are you? I'm doing quite quite quite well Well, I had

32:28

Because I wanted to help me out with something. All right, I am

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I'm actually married to a woman who is Catholic. Mm -hmm and which creates some problems sometimes but I'm going to a

32:46

Bible college and We're going to a church yet. She actually goes to church with me and she had like last night we went to was a

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Wednesday night prayer service and somebody asked for prayer for salvation for someone who is

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Very Catholic and lost Which sent my wife out of the room? Yeah, they weren't they weren't aware of your situation

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I'm not sure this particular woman was I don't I don't think so. I understand most of the people at the church do though, but I'm at school and I I got in a discussion with my wife and and she says

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Her problem is whether one of her problems is that all you different Protestant people

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You believe something different and you all claim that the Holy Spirit is leading you in the same things I mean because I tell her 1st

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John 2 27 28 says that you don't need anybody to teach you you have the you have the anointing the

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Spirit is teaching you in all things so I The school that I'm going to Is not you know

33:55

Calvinistic per se? Although my theology teacher I went to my theology teacher because I got into a discussion with somebody over here about Limited atonement and he called me a heretic.

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And so I went to my theology teacher and I said, well, you know what? this is what I believe the Bible teaches and I want you to try and talk me out of it and He said there's nothing

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I need to talk you out of I agree with you. Ah Which is very comforting. Can you hear me? Yes, which which which was then followed by just don't tell anybody

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I told you that Basically, yeah Well, well then

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I I have a my hermeneutics teacher I talked to today and I said well I have

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Some issues that I got to bring up with you You know Because God is sovereign

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I believe and in Genesis 50 20 says that you know Joseph said, you know, you know the passage

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Oh, yes, God and God you intended this for evil, but God meant it for good to save many people alive today Okay, and then

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I was reading through Genesis 45 the other day and I think verses 5 through 7 say hey it wasn't you guys

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Who sent me here? It was God, right? And so I bring this up to him and I I mean because I Don't understand why these people are not

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Just accepting what the word says. Oh There's a one -word answer for that.

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That's pretty straightforward Mike and it's called tradition and it's called The person who led me to the

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Lord told me this is the way it is and therefore that's really my highest authority and I'm uncomfortable with any other ideas than that and My foundation is more

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What I've heard from others than from from from my study of the Word of God So that's that's really the reason and that actually addresses your wife's objection, too

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Because when she says well you all say it the Holy Spirit's telling you these things I I you'll never hear me using as an argument

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Well, I'm right about this because the Holy Spirit tells me I'm right about this you've you've never heard me say that because the

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Spirit of God and the Word of God work in concert with one another and Jesus addressed men and and Held them accountable for what the

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Word of God said and you never hear arguments Between Jesus and others saying well the

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Spirit told me this and you're wrong in spirit No, Jesus is always saying is it not written in your law? X Y &

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Z and so there is a an objective Revelation to which we refer that we recognize without the work of the

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Spirit I'm not going to be obedient to that and I'm not going to have a true spiritual knowledge of it that Impacts my soul

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I mean a lost person can understand that the Bible teaches X Y & Z a lost person understand the

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Bible teaches is only one true God for example, but To bow down and worship that God to to take up the cross and follow after Christ that's where the that's where the work of the

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Spirit comes in to to make that change and so When you hear all these differences of opinions in the vast majority of instances, it's not because of solo scriptura

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It's not because that people are seriously taking the Word of God and studying all the

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Word of God It's because they're denying that and they're they're actually This this

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Holy Spirit claim is very frequently a denial of solo scriptura It's not

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I went to the Word of God and the Word of God clearly says this it's I got this feeling and my feeling

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Is that this text means this well your feeling is not what the Word of God is So you don't don't confuse the two of them.

37:27

So that's right. Yeah, go ahead I'm sorry. Well, I told her that the reason that it's pretty evident that the reason that there's so many different traditions or Denominations or whatnot is because someone latches on to one

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You know one verse or one passage of Scripture and they take their whole theology and they run with it in that direction

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And you mean they they latch on to what they think a particular text of Scripture says and then they become imbalanced and run with it

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Yeah, that would be I think the best way to put that better but Shouldn't I guess is

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How would you advise me to To try and explain this because I understand it's hard for me to explain these things because I got so much stuff on the floor now

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Because I don't have that time to study As far as God's having his hand in these things and being

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Totally in control of the situation and like I told my hermeneutics professor I don't believe that anything comes about without God say so and so You know, he says well you can't you got to be careful because you can't

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Make God the author of sin. I said, I don't believe that I'm doing that But realizing that why can you have a paradox that says that God is sovereign yet man is

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Man has his free will and that and that is what actually determines what happens But you but you have a problem with looking at this in a paradoxical way and then trying to figure out what it

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Takes on what the Bible actually says. Well now let me let me ask you a question because I'm hearing I'm hearing two threads here

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I'm hearing the discussion of the sovereignty of God and the will of man Which you you've already

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I think got your finger on at least one of the right texts in Genesis 50 Look at Isaiah chapter 10 when

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God uses the Assyrians to punish Israel You look at Acts chapter 4 and you see Pilate and Herod In fact the last little blog article

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I did on Dave Hunt raises those issues as well If you've taken a look at that you've got that going on and the whole concept of compatibilism the idea of primary and secondary causes and the fact that we are judged on the intentions of our hearts the desires of our hearts that is what

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God judges us upon and Not just the the bare facts of events

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That's the one thread and then I have the second thread being your your your wife being a

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Roman Catholic saying There's all these differences is the differences that she's talking about specifically about this or about Other issues.

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Well, she says that my favorite subject is Calvinism and that's what

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I end up talking about and whenever my friends here because I Have it seems that the Conversation always drifts to that subject no matter who

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I'm talking to over here well I don't believe

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I don't believe when I said that I said to him that the the free will and the sovereignty of God I'm I was addressing him and what he believes and if you can if you can go on that and be comfortable with seeing a paradox in that but you know

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Even though I don't think that it is necessarily a paradox There's an answer to it, but well, let me put this way

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Mike an answer to your wife's question What I would emphasize with to her is that the the differences first of all that Rome has never

40:59

Answered these questions itself. So to be a Roman Catholic and say well y 'all got a bunch of different perspectives.

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Well, you've got the Dominicans and the Augustinians who've been Hacking each other up within the

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Roman Catholic community over these issues all along to that the real question might be Hey, if you do have this this living magisterium, how come you don't have a final answer these questions yourself?

41:24

it's hardly a Feather in Rome's cap that that she has as avoided answering these difficult questions.

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It's amazing to me In fact that she can answer dogmatically such issues as the immaculate conception or the bodily assumption of Mary But she can't answer dogmatically the actual nature of God's grace and will of man that that to me is indicative of the the whole conundrum of the alleged authority of the

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Roman Church, but This would provide you with an opportunity and since you're in a

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Bible College And I'm assuming you're pursuing some sort of a degree in in Bible I'm taking a biblical languages major.

42:04

Okay a biblical languages major. Okay, here's an opportunity in your studies Of course, you know,

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I did this when I was in both in Bible College and seminary. I would try to seek to make my assignments when when it was

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There was there I had some freedom in in choosing topics and things like that I tried to choose topics that would allow me to use the results of my research in the ministry that I was doing

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Well part of your ministry, of course is is being a good witness to your wife in this situation

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And so you can illustrate over and over again as you're working in the biblical languages

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How many times that the biblical answer? Well take take the last program.

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I did an X 1348 you can you can illustrate even in the comments of Steve Gregg You can illustrate an exegetical response and you can you can illustrate a traditional response and say see, you know, here's

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Here's a situation where a consistent application of Sola Scriptura leads you to this conclusion and yet the allowance of these external traditions overthrowing

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Sola Scriptura Leads you to ignore this element of the information that element of the information leave this out leave that out

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And you can do that in in John 6 I mean John 6 would be an excellent direction to go to move into the alleged

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Eucharistic language in John 6 and and demonstrating that what comes before that is is so vital in understanding what is actually being said of the the union between the elect and Christ and how they feed upon him and and how this isn't just some

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External thing that develops centuries and centuries later, but but that it had a meaning at that particular point in time.

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So there's You know my experience Mike has been that that when people challenge my faith the reason

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I am what I am the reason that I am Reformed and and and stand so firmly in that camp is not because that's my quote -unquote tradition

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But because when I am forced By those outside the faith or those who claim to be inside the faith to be consistent my exegesis

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I consistently come back to those same conclusions. That's what the Word of God is teaching and so you have the opportunity and it's and yeah, it's a lot of work, but you have the opportunity of illustrating that and I Know you can't necessarily sit down with with your wife and go through paraphrastic

44:31

Constructions, but one of the big challenges especially for someone studying what you're studying is can you take that information and make it understandable people who do not have the same level of scholarly terminology to utilize that said that you do

44:45

So that's that's gonna be a challenge for you Yeah, okay. I didn't mean to be so So all over the place.

44:54

Oh, no, that's that's that's fully understandable. You've got a lot of issues that you're working with It's gonna take time but that really, you know,

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I think I can say with with fair certainty that that's first and foremost

45:07

God's call upon your life right now is the consistent testimony of a of a Consistent Christian life first of all and then the the proclamation of those truths in the situation of that you find yourself within within your marriage, so That's that's what your your calling is.

45:25

And so Keep moving that direction. I was wondering if you would possibly think about Coming to work at my

45:33

Bible college. I can have some more time to sit down and talk to you well rich You think we've got a lot of time extra here.

45:43

Yeah. Yeah, Wisconsin a little bit nippy up there. Yeah Gets a little nippy up there and I loved it up in Anchorage So that that's not the problem

45:52

But you got those cheese heads up there and I just never never figured that part out just a little bit All right, thanks for the call

46:02

Mike All right, yes Well day of Valente Alan Kirshner is a cheese head too, so I yeah, there's there's there's some nice cheese heads

46:12

There's just they're just a little bit on the odd side. But anyhow Eight seven seven seven five three three four one

46:18

I'm not sure we're gonna really have time for that because I did want to play for you as a means of getting believe It out. I want to get back to the

46:24

Shabir Ali Mike like on a debate, but I want to to play for you

46:32

A section of the Bart Ehrman William Lane Craig debate now, why would

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I want to do that? I would want to do that because of the fact that if you weren't listening real carefully and you couldn't tell the

46:50

The the Accent of the voice You would have a difficulty understanding or knowing or being able to determine who you were listening to what

46:59

I mean by that Is I have heard when I when I play this next section from Bart Ehrman and man he gets passionate

47:06

I mean he is passionately against the Christian faith I mean this this guy's and this is let's think about it from the world's perspective

47:14

This is the best the the other side has to offer. I mean Bart Ehrman. I mean he's the he's constantly being cited by Islamic apologists as a great scholar and and Skeptics is a great scholar.

47:27

I mean he this is top flight So here is a section I listened to it a couple days ago while writing here's a section where he is laying out

47:37

Why we cannot trust the Gospels in regards to the resurrection Listen to this and see if you haven't heard this someplace before The stories get changed.

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How do we know that the stories got changed in the process of transmission? We know the stories got changed because there are numerous differences in our accounts that cannot be reconciled with one another

48:03

You don't need to take my word for this simply look at yourself I tell my students that that the reason we don't notice there's so many differences in the

48:11

Gospels is because we read the Gospels Horizontally, I mean I'm sorry We read them vertically from top to bottom you start at the top of Mark you read through to the bottom

48:19

You start at the top of Matthew reading to the bottom sounds a lot like Mark Then you read Luke top bottom sounds a lot like Matthew and Mark reach on a little bit different sounds about the same

48:28

The reason is because we're reading them vertically the way to see differences in the Gospels is to read them horizontally

48:35

Read one story in Matthews in the same story in Mark and compare your two stories and see what you come up with You come up with major differences.

48:44

Just take the death of Jesus What day did Jesus die on and what time of day did he die on the day that the day before the

48:54

Passover meal was eaten as John explicitly says or did he die after it was eaten as Mark explicitly says

49:02

Did he die at noon as in John or at 9 a .m. As in Mark?

49:07

Did Jesus carry his cross the entire way himself or did Simon of Cyrene carry his cross?

49:13

It depends which gospel you read Did both robbers mock Jesus on the cross or only did only one of them mock him and the other come to his defense

49:22

It depends which gospel you read Did the curtain in the temple rip in half before Jesus died or after he died?

49:29

It depends which gospel you read or take the accounts of the resurrection Who went to the tomb on the third day?

49:36

Was it Mary alone or was it married with other women if it was married with other women?

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How many other women were there? Which ones were they and what were their names? Was the stone rolled away before they got there or not?

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What did they see in the tomb? Did they see a man? Did they see two men or did they see an angel?

49:57

It depends which account you read What were they told told to tell the disciples? Were the disciples supposed to go to Jerusalem and see

50:05

Jesus there and were they supposed to stay in Jerusalem and see Jesus there? See Jesus there did the women tell anyone or not it depends which gospel you read

50:16

Did the disciples never leave Jerusalem or did they immediately leave Jerusalem and go to Galilee?

50:23

All of these depend on which account you read You have the same problems for all of the sources in all of our

50:30

Gospels. These are not historically reliable accounts The authors were not eyewitnesses

50:36

They're Greek speaking Christians living 35 to 65 years after the events They narrate the accounts that they narrate are based on oral traditions that have been in circulation for decades

50:46

Year after year Christians trying to convert others told them stories to convince them That Jesus was raised from the dead

50:54

These writers are telling stories then that Christians have been telling all these years Now there is and I'm watching folks and channel

51:03

Anyone who has engaged in any kind of apologetics at all has heard almost every single one of those arguments before and Here's here's

51:12

Bart Ehrman now Bart Ehrman. There is a specific Biblical term that describes Bart Ehrman and he is an apostate

51:18

Now people oh you can't use that terminology. Why what is an apostate as pasta is a person who once?

51:25

professed a Belief and now denies that belief and he says in this debate He once believed everything that William Lane Craig had said about the

51:32

Resurrection now, he denies it Technically that makes him an apostate and who are you to say that the

51:39

Bible shouldn't use terms like that? But you know, we live in a day where you know someday that'll be called hate speech

51:45

I'm sure and and you'll be thrown in jail if you actually use biblical terminology, but Bart Ehrman is an apostate and in fact,

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I would point out the Bart Ehrman has a He has a reason to come to conclusions that he's come to He is the one he this is not some objective neutral scholar when you're an apostate to a religion

52:06

You have to live up to a little higher standard. I think of Demonstrating your quote -unquote scholarly objectivity than someone who is not an apostate to a religion

52:16

I think that's fairly obvious in any case of All the arguments that were just presented

52:25

There is only one of the arguments I just just heard present just thrown out there as if they are just Bald facts that just you know, this is just the way it is

52:35

You have to deal with this. There was one that is difficult to deal with and it was the first one

52:41

What John 19 says and how you interpret the day of preparation and which Passover is being referred to in the

52:48

Sabbath days and That's it. That's a huge Area of discussion there all sorts of articles and and things like that and people come up with all sorts of Interesting ways of trying to deal with this, but he just he just throws it out there and says see

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Here's contradiction and that's the way it is. Everything else that was presented has to me anyway, rather Easy responses that can be given to them

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For example, I just happened to you know the hour of the of the crucifixion that that's really easy

53:24

Because it's Matthew Mark Luke versus John at that point and John's using the Roman system and Matthew Mark and Luke are using the

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Palestinian System and when you just allow that they're saying the exact same thing. There's no way you could fit it any other way

53:36

So it's just it's facile and simplistic To to look at it the way that he's looking at there

53:42

I mean that that's that's not even a tough one But since he throws it out there With all these other lists and concludes from it.

53:50

See these are not historically reliable He's using one standard for this that he would never use

53:56

I mean for example, I I know that when he deals with Gnostic Gospels he bends over backwards to try to try to come up with ways of of Reconciling these things one another and making them look a little less silly than the standard reading of them would would lead one to but Again the man's an apostate and apostates do that now another one that I just happen to throw up on the in Bible works while he was doing this was the veil in the temple and You have in Matthew 27 51

54:25

You have actually Matt 27 50 Jesus cried out again with a loud voice and yielded up his spirit and behold the veil the temple

54:31

Is torn in two from top to bottom near shook and the rocks are split. So that's Matthew then Mark says Mark 15

54:38

Jesus uttered a loud cry and breathed his last mark 1537 next verse and avail temples torn top from In two from top to bottom what he's pointing out is that then in Luke 23?

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It was now about the sixth hour and darkness fell over the land until the ninth hour because the Sun was obscured and the veil the temple was torn in two and Jesus crying out with a loud loud voice said father into your hands.

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I commit my spirit having said this he breathed his last So he he assumes for some reason don't ask me why?

55:07

that for probably some reason of Rhetoric or something.

55:14

I don't know undoubtedly assuming a slavish Connection a slavish dependence by both

55:23

Matthew and Luke on mark that Luke just either makes a mistake or just tries to tries to come up with some value in making the the

55:32

Rending of the veil before Jesus died Jesus dies rather than afterwards rather than just simply seeing that Luke is

55:38

Reporting all that happened and he's not trying to make a chronological connection that That would make this contradictory.

55:46

So that's just you know, just throw it out there and and Just assume that you you're reading it in the only way it can be read and and the idea of allowing

55:55

For these to be what they are and that is accounts that as Luke says he

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Compiled written information as Luke says he interviewed people I wouldn't have any problem if Luke had access to written documents, which might include elements of mark or all of mark

56:14

That's not the point what they ignore is that there was an apostolic preaching which included the testimony of eyewitnesses that Luke himself refers to and Those eyewitnesses were still around the idea of wholesale editing for the fun of it in The context of a living community that still had eyewitnesses in it is absurd

56:38

But no one will deal with this Because well airmen airmen was trained at Princeton and that just means that airmen must be right about everything airmen says well baloney

56:47

We've got to start demythologizing this silly scholarship. I don't care where you got your degree if you can't think straight

56:54

That's a problem if You can't demonstrate that you can utilize the same standards

57:00

Consistently with the sources. That's a problem. I don't care if you went to Princeton.

57:06

I'm sorry That doesn't matter Scholarship is not something you buy.

57:11

It's something you do and if you can't do it consistently over time then that says something doesn't it and So when you listen to all these

57:21

When we go back finally, we're gonna run out of time today, but when you go when we go back Lord willing at the regular time next

57:28

Tuesday to the the Ali debate with Mike like Kona You're gonna hear the exact same things

57:35

In fact, I don't know if Shabir borrowed this from airmen or what but the horizontal vertical thing

57:40

Which is commonly discussed when you talk about I mean, I've talked about that I talked about that in the introduction years ago to our

57:47

Synoptic study at Phoenix foreign Baptist Church, but you'll hear the exact same kind of language and the exact same type of president presentation and Very few people sadly are in a position to be able to challenge that stuff because well

57:59

We're you know, we're a little uncomfortable in doing that kind of synoptic study in most churches

58:04

We've been doing it for four years, but you know, we're a little uncomfortable with that and maybe don't have the resources Well, we need to get the resources.

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This is what we are called to in our generation today This is the kind of information that's out there and if we don't want to be silent

58:18

Christians who do not make an impact in this world then this is the work that we Have to do and that's why we do the dividing line.

58:25

We'll be doing it again Tuesday morning Lord willing Hope you'll join with us then as we get back to the Shabir Ali Mike like Kona debate on the subject of the resurrection

58:32

Thanks for listening. God bless The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries

59:46

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