June 7, 2022 Show with Dr. Joseph A. Pipa on “Posture in Worship: Does it Matter & What Does it Convey?” and “Who Should (& Who Should Not) Lead Public Worship?”

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this seventh day of June 2022.

I'm thrilled to have back as a returning guest to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dr. Joseph A.

Piper Jr., who is an author of over one dozen books and President Emeritus and Professor of Practical and Applied Theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Taylors, South Carolina.

We're addressing two topics today. The first hour, we're going to be addressing posture in worship.

Does it matter and what does it convey? And the second hour, we will be discussing who should and who should not lead public worship.

It's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dr. Joseph A. Piper Jr.

Thank you, Chris. It's good to be back with you. It's been way too long. Yes, we've got to make it a point to not let such a long gap in between our interviews occur.

Well, and that's my fault and not yours. You've reached out a number of times. By the way, it's Professor of Systematic and Applied Theology.

Oh, okay. I don't know how I get that mistake there, but I will correct that.

And tell our listeners about Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary. Well, the seminary was founded in 1987 by Dr.

Morton H. Smith, who also was the founding professor of the first Reformed Theological Seminary.

And it was for the purpose of having, initially, a seminary, more or less, in the Carolinas, that would be committed to an experimental

Calvinism, as it is expressed in the Westminster Standards, with a very strict adherence to the standards, with the purpose of preparing men to be preachers.

And God has blessed us greatly in that. I came over in January of 1998 as the first president.

I served 22 1⁄2 years. I resigned or retired from that two years ago this summer, and Dr.

Jonathan Master is now the second president at the seminary and doing a fantastic job.

Yes, I've interviewed Jonathan in the past, and I'd love to have him back on the program. I bumped into him at the

Banner of Truth conference that was held recently in Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania.

And he expressed his great interest in returning as a guest. And, by the way, Pat Daly of the

Banner of Truth also extends his greetings to you. Well, I'm very excited that Patrick's coming down to be vice president here at the seminary in the middle of this month.

Yes, I had heard that. Well, if anybody wants more information about Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Taylors, South Carolina, their website is gpts .edu.

G for Greenville, P for Presbyterian, T for Theological, S for seminary .edu.

gpts .edu. Well, this is an interesting subject that we are about to explore, this first subject.

I never have in my memory devoted an hour during this two -hour program to the subject of posture in worship.

Does it matter, and what does it convey? And tell us about what compelled you to actually suggest this topic very strongly.

Well, I've been teaching worship for a number of years and actually working on a book on worship.

And as I've studied, particularly the Fathers, going back to the Reformers and then the

Puritans, they all had a very wholesome commitment to the body in worship.

Reformed people today are strong on what we call the regular principle of worship, that God teaches us in the

Word how it was to be worshiped. But we've neglected what the Bible says about the body, and Reformed people tend to act as if we're disembodied souls.

Yes, they do. People who are called to worship God, and the

Bible is full of instruction in this area of posture. And as I said,

Calvin and the Puritans made a great deal of it. Well, let's go through some of these postures that you believe are to have an important present in the public worship of God's people.

Let's start with standing. I know that standing has a prominent place, typically, especially in Reformed churches.

People stand when the Bible is read. People stand when they sing. Perhaps not for every single song, but in some congregations it would be for every single song.

Tell us about standing. Let me just do one guiding principle,

Chris, to do that, and that is, as we talk about posture, one of the things that, in a sense,

I push back against is individualistic postures. The things that I'll talk about are things that we should do together as a congregation unless someone is physically unable to use one of the postures.

And so we see a lot today of individual amens, and I know of one congregation where one man from Europe insisted on standing for prayer.

Everybody else was sitting, and he was in the midst of the congregation, not at the back, and so it becomes much more of a distraction at that point than it does a helpful thing.

But standing for the reading of Scripture, that's where you said to start.

Yeah, well, that's just what first stuck in my mind, or became prominent in my thinking, knowing that in Reformed circles, typically the only time that we're sitting is when we're hearing the

Word preached. But if you could move on with the importance of that. Well, that is not true in most of the churches with which

I'm familiar. We're seeing a rise, at least down here, in standing for the reading of Scripture.

Well, that's why I emphasize the word preached, not read. Right. No, but I'm saying a reading of Scripture.

It's not been a practice in many of our

Reformed churches.

So it's clearly a posture in Scripture that we see in both

Testaments where people are standing for the reading of the

Word of God. It was used in the synagogue, obviously.

As we see there, Christ was reading from the

Scriptures in Isaiah in the synagogue that people stood for the preaching of the

Word. It is seen in Nehemiah 8 .5.

And in the early Puritans and Reformers, I believe that we should be standing for the reading of Scripture.

So it's to show reverence to God, whose Word it is, and we stand in that reverence to Him in the reading of the

Word. Now, would you say that this standing in the reading of the

Word, that it is something that conveys respect, as you were saying, because that seems to be a tradition throughout history, even when we go outside the boundaries of Christianity or even religion itself, standing in the presence of a very important person that may be in your presence.

It may be a dignitary, it may be a president. In other countries, it may be a king.

And to be sitting there when someone arrives in the room who possesses great importance would be seen as a sign of disrespect.

It seems universally so. Yes, I think so. It's something that we do see in the general revelation of God.

Now, one of the controversial areas of public worship amongst

Reformed people, doesn't seem to be controversial anywhere else, is the raising of holy hands in worship.

Obviously, this has become a key element in Pentecostal and charismatic worship.

And these days, in the 21st century, even those that are cessationist churches outside of Pentecostalism and the charismatic movement are frequently seen lifting holy hands.

But we seem to be an oddball in the bunch. I guess Reformed folks and fundamentalists seem to be the only ones these days that rarely do you see someone raising holy hands.

Can you express your views on this? Yes. Again, keep in mind that little caveat when we began, and that is if we are to raise hands, it's not to be individuals in the congregation lifting up their hands whenever they feel moved to do so.

When we see it, we do find it often in Scripture. But it's done as a corporate act.

Now, in 1 Timothy 2, we see that the one leading in prayer is to lift his hands. But in many other places,

Nehemiah 8, Psalm 28, Psalm 63, Psalm 143,

God calls on his people to lift their hands in worship.

And we know that's a practice of adoration. It's useful in private prayer, but it also can be useful in corporate prayer.

So it is a—we most often see it now in singing, but in the

Scripture, it was much more connected to prayer and not for singing.

And as I said, it should be done corporately. Terry Johnson, in his very good book on Reformed Worship that's according to Scripture, wrote about the posture.

Moses' famous prayer during Israel's battle with Amalek provides a good example, and there are many others as well.

So then if hands are to be raised in worship, it should be done either symbolically, on behalf of the congregation by the minister, or by the whole congregation itself throughout the prayer as a posture for intercession, and I would add to that for praise.

So I find it as a fitting accompaniment to praise, and I recommend it either for the opening prayer of adoration and invocation, or perhaps if the

Doxology of Gloria, which are actually prayers, are being sung. So those are a couple of the places that I think it is useful.

I know a couple now of very strict Reformed congregations that have implemented this.

It's probably the most difficult posture to get Reformed people to pay attention to.

I think most Reformed arms don't go much above the shoulder. So...

In connection with that... And that's usually just to brush dandruff off. Yeah, that's right.

Fix the hair. The other thing we are seeing in Reformed churches, but again it's not being done maybe with as much consciousness as it should be, and particularly corporate, and that is the outstretched hand at waist level when the benediction is pronounced.

I like this posture. We see, for example, in Psalm 88 -9 or Psalm 143 -6,

God talks about the psalmist's hand stretched out to God in faith. So in a benediction, which is

God placing His name upon us, pronouncing a blessing upon us, I like the outstretched hand from the waist as a posture that is saying yes in faith to that blessing that God is pronouncing.

So you're saying that this posture, it would be a positive thing if the congregation was joining the one pronouncing the benediction in doing this hand gesture?

His hands are lifted... No, his hands are lifted up, palm down. That's the posture for the leader. We find that from Numbers chapter 6.

But the congregation's response is the waist level, arm stretched out, palm up, which is a posture of reception.

And I think, as I said, there's biblical precedent for that as well. A lot of our Reformed people have started doing that.

I don't think they even know why. And it's not being done corporately as it needs to be done.

So the church that we're starting, that's one of the postures now that we have introduced, and that is the hands extended, waist high, palm up.

When the minister has his hands up high, palm down, and that's the posture again of God blessing

His people, or as it says in Numbers 6, putting His name upon the people. Now, since you are saying that you are not in agreement with individual spontaneity when it comes to these things, are you saying that these gestures and postures should be done at a verbal, a vocal signal by the preacher?

Yes, I think that's probably the best way to do it, particularly as the congregation is learning.

It's also good when visitors are there. And then periodically in worship, whatever postures we're using, we explain them for the sake, not every week, but because we do a number of things that are a bit different, we do explain those things as we do them.

Now, how would you respond to someone? They might especially be responding in this way if they were

Pentecostal or charismatic, but not necessarily exclusively. They might say that this is very robotic and removes a genuineness of joy or thanksgiving or gratefulness when you are removing the spontaneity from it, and it is only being done when others are doing so at the initiation of the preacher.

It might become just very robotic. It's something that you do that has no meaning to it.

I can remember being raised as a Roman Catholic and going to church, and there were many different postures and hand movements that were very robotic.

And I will be very confident to say that if you were to interview

Roman Catholics on why they are doing these things,

I would say probably close to 90 percent, if not more, would say, I have no idea, that's just the way we do these things.

Right, yeah, no, you must always teach as you go along. Corporate worship, by the actions that we do, is not to have an outward spontaneous expression because it's corporate.

One of the differences in corporate worship and private worship. And as long as we understand what we're doing and do it from faith, and if our hearts are engaged in worship, then there is a natural spontaneity between the heart and the gesture.

But the examples we find in Scripture are the Congregation doing it as a whole. That's the pattern, the form.

Or either one doing it on behalf of the Congregation. So with the biblical pattern that's there, and anything in our worship can and we must always fight against the sin of formalism.

Our hearts must be engaged. We must be worshiping by faith.

But individual acts of spontaneity, I just will say biblically, are not fitting in corporate worship.

One of the reasons why you have a negative reaction or even a negative view of individualism and spontaneity in regards to these things and others in a corporate worship service is because a person, whether consciously or unconsciously, is drawing attention to themselves rather to what is being proclaimed from the pulpit.

And they are... I'll say unconsciously, but yes. Putting the spotlight on themselves.

Right. And this would be wrong in your opinion.

Why? Because there are some, especially in Pentecostal and charismatic circles, and I keep bringing that up, but it's just because there are very different postures and behaviors typically between our brothers and sisters in those congregations and those that are typically

Reformed. They would view that as something that is an encouragement and an inspiration to others witnessing it.

Oh, look at this brother or sister, how much filled with the Holy Spirit they are at this moment.

And it's perhaps meant to provoke others to find that much exuberant joy in what they are hearing and witnessing.

Yeah. It's just that I think it's a biblical principle. The Old Westminster Directory of Worship actually addressed the issue, "...public

worship being begun, the people are holy to attend upon it, forbearing to read anything except what the ministers in reading are stating, extending much more from all private whisperings, conferences, salutations, or doing reverence to any person present or coming in, as also gazing, sleeping, or other indecent behavior, which may disturb the ministry of people, or hinder themselves or others in the service of God.

If any to necessity be hindered from being present at the beginning, he ought not then to come in, and the congregation be taken themselves to their private devotions, but reverently compose themselves to join with the assembly in that ordinance of God which is in hand."

You see, a lot of our problem is most people are making, particularly in that category, worship an individualistic exercise anyway, rather than understanding the glorious nature of corporate worship as it is commanded by God and what it means.

So those would be some of the reasons that I would push back on that.

We have people at times who show up and do that, and we don't correct them.

If they stay involved in the life of the Church, then we would eventually, pastorally, explain to them why we do what we do and such, but we don't just outright correct them.

Now perhaps it would have been wise for me to even start this program at the very beginning, for having you define what worship is, because even amongst professedly

Bible -believing Christians, there seems to be a difference of understanding.

Like one thing, my friend Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries, one thing that really irritates him when he has been invited to speak at a church or a conference where after the singing portion has been completed, either the song leader or the pastor or someone else will get up to the podium and say, now that our time of worship has been completed, it's time for us to hear a word from our speaker, as if the proclamation of the

Word of God is not worship. So perhaps you could tell us what you believe worship to be.

Okay. Worship is, the difference in private and family worship on the one hand and corporate worship on the other, is of the three,

God is most honored and glorified in social or corporate worship.

So take for example Psalm 100. In a message

I have, a chapter in this book, I begin with this psalm to get into the purpose and nature of worship and look at the plurality of all of the commandments.

They're all in the second person plural. The place is the temple and the acts are all acts of corporate worship.

In fact, the psalm is entitled Psalm 4,

Thanksgiving. So social worship is, let me give you a couple of definitions.

One by Bob Rabin, worships the activity of the new life of a believer in which recognizing the fullness of the

Godhead as is revealed in the person and feet of Christ and his mighty redemptive acts. He seeks by the power of the

Holy Spirit to render the living God glory, honor, and submission. Corporate worship is the highest expression of worship.

So James Vannerman described it, public worship is no other than the manner and the way in which centers associated together in a church faith are permitted in their collective capacity to hold intercourse with God, to maintain in a right and befitting way their fellowship with him, and to approach him in acceptable communion.

In fact, all of the great spiritual fathers in the church taught, as through the

Westminster Standards, that corporate worship is the greatest means of grace because the

Bible teaches that we come into God's presence in a very special manner in corporate worship, more so than in the other aspects of worship.

And worship is such, then, as to consist of all the things that God reveals that he wants done in those assemblies.

So it's not just singing. In fact, singing is a significantly minor part, even the reading of Scripture publicly, not the text of the sermon.

Paul told Timothy, until I come, give attention to the public reading of the

Word. And the church has historically understood that, that reading of Scripture itself is an act of worship.

Of course, all the different prayers of the church are acts of worship. And then preaching is also listed in the

Westminster Standards as one of the elements of worship. So we preach in God's presence for his favor, and to God's people for their benefit and edification.

And going back to the regulative principle, which many, but not all, but many

Reformed Christians incorporate into their life as a church and their worship, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding of the regulative principle, silence in the

New Testament is viewed as a prohibition rather than a license for a liberty and freedom in the way we worship.

In other words, those that believe in the regulative principle as opposed to the normative principle, we would not want to include anything that is not specifically mentioned by command or example in the

New Testament as a means of worship.

Now, when I emphasize the New Testament, obviously the New Testament includes some of those

Old Testament actions such as the singing of psalms.

The New Testament includes all that was done in the synagogue, which Christ himself then used the synagogue as did the apostles.

The scriptural basis of the regulative principle is the Second Commandment, and that is that we then are only to offer to God those things revealed according to his word.

And that's repeated by Christ to the woman in Samaria where he says that we are to worship in spirit and in truth.

Now truth there in part has to do with the fullness of the new covenant in the spirit because Christ has fulfilled it, but also

Christ who gave us the Second Commandment is repeating the principle there that we are to worship

God according to revelation. So the things that we find in the

New Testament are simply the things that were in the synagogue. In the temple there were two aspects of worship.

There were the things that were peculiar to temple worship, and they've been fulfilled in Christ in the church.

But the things that were done in the synagogue were the things that God revealed to be done at the temple that were broader, and they're done then in the synagogues.

And it's interesting, Leviticus 23, when he gives the Sabbath commands, the weekly

Sabbath was for a holy convocation, and that means corporate worship. And obviously they didn't go to the temple from all over the land every seventh day.

So we know by inference right there that there were meeting houses in all the cities and villages of Israel.

And so when the psalmist laments the destruction of the land, one of the things he says about the

Babylonians is they burned down our meeting houses. So the synagogue didn't start during the exile.

It maybe got that name, but the meeting houses were obviously in use all over.

So this whole idea of corporate worship, that was the primary reason. Or to Leviticus 23, for the

Sabbath, and that continues then up until today. Well, we have to go to our first break right now.

If anybody has a question for Dr. Joseph Piper, please send it to chrisarnson at gmail .com,

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence.

Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages. The boys are back in town. The boys are back in town.

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I'm Dr. Joseph Piper, president emeritus and professor of systematic and applied theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary.

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Dr. Joseph A. Piper, and he is President Emeritus at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Taylor, South Carolina.

The first hour of the program, we are addressing posture in worship.

If you have a question, please send it to ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Give us your first name at least, city and state, and country of residence. We have Ted in Moundville, Alabama.

I am very pleased that you are addressing this important topic today. I recall listening to a podcast episode of Reformed Forum with Camden Busey and our mutual friend,

Dr. Jeff Waddington, in which the two of them had a brief discussion about body posture when offering the benediction at the end of the service.

Camden had mentioned in passing that when he was a seminarian conducting a worship service, he would not extend his hands in the orans,

O -R -A -N -S, posture, and that he was committed to waiting until he was ordained before he would assume this posture while offering the benediction.

I had never heard of this distinction before, and I was wondering what the biblical rationale behind it might be.

I've also noticed that in some congregations, including decidedly non -charismatic congregations, that some congregants will assume the orans posture while receiving the benediction.

In your view, is there something that these congregants should not do? That's an excellent question.

The first part of it has to do with the nature of the benediction. As I said earlier, it is an act of God speaking.

God is imposing that. As we understand, particularly the basis of it in church office in Numbers 6, that only the man who has been ordained to preach the

Word of God is the one who then becomes God's mouthpiece, because in preaching he's

God's mouthpiece, becomes God's mouthpiece for giving the benediction. So Cameron and I agree 100 % on that.

So I instruct our guys who go out to do pulpit supply that if there is no pastor there, they are to pray the benediction, not to pronounce it and not to lift their hands.

Now, the congregation, as I said, though, should not have their hands up in the air. The whole significance of that, again, goes back to Numbers 6, and the outstretched hand, palm down, is a biblical symbol, then, that God is the one bestowing the blessing.

So the congregation, as I said earlier, if they want to exercise the posture and do that together, they extend their hands waist -high, palm up, as the act of receiving.

Well, thank you, Ted. Let's move on to kneeling. As I said earlier,

I was raised Roman Catholic, and there's far more kneeling going on in a public act of worship in a

Roman Catholic church than I've ever seen in evangelical Protestantism, especially

Reformed circles. In evangelical circles that are

Arminian and have the practice of the altar call, you will typically only see kneeling when people go forward and they kneel at a railing in front of the pulpit, and they will receive a blessing as they recite the sinner's prayer or something.

But I have been told that one of the reasons Reformed people typically don't have kneeling or kneelers in the pews, as Roman Catholic churches do, is because they want to distance themselves from an act of idolatry that is actually taking place in a

Roman Catholic church. And many people might not know this, but the primary reason why a

Roman Catholic, when entering into a church building, crosses him or herself and genuflects, which is like a halfway kneel, or kneels in a pew with a kneeler that flips up and down, is because they are actually worshiping

Jesus Christ in his physical presence, which they believe is present in the

Eucharist. They believe that a consecrated host is Jesus Christ's soul, body, and divinity, and those hosts in the ciborium or monstrance, they believe that's

Jesus. So they are kneeling, and Reformed folk view that as an act of idolatry. But do you think that a proper view of kneeling, or kneeling in a proper way, when viewed and acted upon biblically, where you're only worshiping our

Lord, God, Savior, and King, and not bread and wine, do you think kneeling would be a positive addition to a

Reformed worship service, or not? Well, it's not even a positive addition, it is a biblical addition.

And we have to be careful that we don't throw out the baby with the bath wash.

The concept of kneeling goes back far, long before there was ever a matter of the idolatry of the host that is involved in Romanism.

In fact, Calvin and the Reformers all used kneeling.

Let me just point out that in the Bible, there are three postures for prayer, and sitting is not one of them.

Prostration, which is good in private worship, but the two that are most appropriate for public worship are standing and kneeling.

And the Scripture is full of exhortations toward both.

Standing is a very common posture in prayer. So, the

Savior said, whenever you stand praying, he uses it illustratively of the Pharisee and the

Publican in Luke 18, find it in 2 Chronicles, and it's good in a large public assembly.

Kneeling, then, is mentioned throughout Scripture as a fit posture in prayer. 2 Chronicles 6,

Ezra 9, Daniel 6, Luke 22, Acts 20, Ephesians 3. Isaac Watts wrote, kneeling is the most frequent posture used in this worship.

In nature, it seems to indicate and lead us to it as an expression of humility, of a sense of our need of supplication for mercy and of adoration and dependence upon him before we kneel.

This posture has been practiced in all ages and all nations.

Even where the light of Scripture never shines, it is practiced standing. And if it might be done conveniently, it would be certainly the most agreeable posture for the worship of God in public assemblies.

Calvin advocated kneeling, at the end of the Watts quotation, as the appropriate posture in corporate prayer, and he used it for the prayer of confession in Geneva.

The French churches followed him, and 1559 stated, that great irreverence which is found in divers persons who, at public and private prayers, do neither uncover their heads nor bow their knees, shall be reformed, which is a matter repugnant unto piety, and give a suspicion of pride, and scandalizes them that fear

God. Wherefore, all pastors shall be advised, as also elders and heads of families, carefully to oversee, that in time of prayer, all persons, without exception, are asked that patience be evidenced by these exterior signs, the inward humility of their hearts, and homage which they yield to God, unless anyone be hindered from doing so by sickness or otherwise.

So, it was practiced by all the Reformers, it was practiced by Puritans. It simply is one of those things that got lost when

Evangelicalism, Evangelicalism is fundamental to both of our Reformed churches in this area of Oxford.

And by the way, Dr. Piper, if you could make sure that whenever you're speaking, you're speaking close to whatever mouthpiece you're using, because sometimes...

I put a piece of paper over it, that was the problem, I'm sorry. Sometimes you fade off.

Let me say something here, Chris. We hope to get muteries in the church that we're restarting, but at this point, we stand for the opening prayer of adoration and invocation, but we stand for the prayer of thanksgiving and supplication, and we stand, obviously, for the prayer of enlightenment in our services.

Now, you talked about standing for singing. You see, that's another

Evangelical thing that got carried over. If we stood for singing all the time, as well as prayer and reading the

Scripture, then I think people would get worn out. We actually sit for two of our psalms or hymns, which is, again, there's nothing at all wrong about that, and people can sing as long as they know how to sing.

Stand up straight, they can sing. But as Watts and many others pointed out, sitting was never an approved

Biblical posture of prayer. One instance we have in David's case, it says he went and sat before the

Lord, but obviously he didn't have chairs. That was probably sitting back on his haunches in a kneeling posture.

So these, the fathers of our claim, you never found sitting as an appropriate posture in prayer. Now, Calvin points out with these things of form that we're not sitting if we don't do this one or that one.

So I don't think it's sin to sit in prayer, but I think it's highly preferable, at least for some of the prayers, to stand and surely to be able to kneel for the prayer of confession.

So you are advocating that Reformed churches, and basically all Bible -believing churches, incorporate kneelers, those flipping up and down devices at the bottom of a pew.

You are advocating that we begin to use these, just as Roman Catholics have been doing for centuries, but for a very different reason.

You're saying this would be a... Because the only time I can recall seeing anyone kneel in a

Reformed worship service, and I may be misremembering, but the only time I can recall seeing it was when a person is being ordained to an office and the elders lay their hands upon that man.

And the man is very often, if not most often, kneeling while being surrounded by elders who have their hands laid upon them.

I don't recall ever seeing somebody kneeling. No, probably not. So I have often wondered about that myself, about including the attachment of kneelers and pews in Reformed churches.

If you don't have that money, you can get the cushioned ones that simply push up under the seat in front of you.

That's fascinating. Well, when we come back from the midway break, I'm going to allow you to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners regarding posture in worship.

And then we'll continue on with our second topic of the day, which has to do with who should and who should not lead public worship.

But we have to go to our midway break right now, folks, and please be patient with us because it is, as always, every day, the longer break in the middle of the show because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1

FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us a longer break in the middle of the show because the

FCC requires of them to air their own public service announcements and other local things that geographically attach

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And also use this time to send in a question for Dr. Joseph A. Piper Jr. as we continue with a new topic, and that is who should and who should not lead public worship.

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Who Should and Who Should Not Lead Public Worship, I just have a couple more announcements.

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Give us your first name at least, city and state, and country of residence. So I wanted you to summarize, Dr.

Piper, before we move on to our second subject. I wanted you to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners about posture in worship.

Thank you, Chris. Oh, and by the way, as I've told you in the past, although I do hold the majority text,

I prefer the NASB. Amen. And I thank you so much for being a part of those advertisements for the

NASB. Yeah. Okay. Well, this whole idea of posture is being greatly neglected in our worship, even in many of our best churches.

And yet because we are people, worshiping God as people, we need to do so with the whole person.

And all the postures that I've mentioned as well as others are revealed in Scripture. As I've said, we're not sinning if we don't use one or some of them.

Calvin has a great discussion of that at the Institutes. I think it's book four, chapter 10, but anyway, where he says when we have these forms that we're not sinning if we don't use them, but they're wise or given to us by God.

So we've talked about postures for the reading of Scripture, which itself is an act of worship, should be standing.

Postures in prayer should be primarily standing or kneeling.

And then what we didn't get to talk about was the voice. And again, in Scripture, the corporate amen was not an individual here and there calling an amen, but it was a corporate response to prayer.

It's throughout Scripture, both testaments, advocated by our fathers in the past.

And then the corporate amen, a little more shout to it after our singing, much better than the sung amen.

And I think that fulfills the shouting of the Psalms that makes some of us a little uncomfortable, but that amen shouted out after we sing is also very useful.

Great. And now we are moving on to probably a much more controversial area that has divided

Christians for quite a long time, especially in the more modern era. In fact, it has split congregations, and it can get ugly when

Christians have disputes over this. And this is the area of who should and who should not lead public worship.

And perhaps you could even clarify or define what you actually mean by leading public worship, because to give you an example, there is a difference of opinion even amongst very conservative, even sometimes

Reformed congregations who may allow a woman to lead in singing.

They may allow a woman to make announcements and so on, because they don't view that as a position of leadership in the church.

They just acknowledge that this woman may be more gifted in the art of music than anyone else that they have, and they have her leading the singing and so on.

So there would be a difference of opinion what leading actually means there, because even in some churches that would never have a woman as an elder or deacon, they may sometimes allow a woman to ascend into the pulpit and lead the music.

But if you could, tell us about what you mean. Okay. This also goes back to the principle of the corporate nature of worship.

And because it's corporate, leadership in worship must be representative in character.

One either acts for or leads the whole in the various acts of worship.

So I have in mind all the elements of worship. And if we quickly listed them, we would talk about singing, various forms of prayer, reading the scripture, and of course preaching.

As to those other things, in my opinion, announcements should not be made within the worship service anyway, because that's not something that's fitting when we've drawn into the presence of God.

So I think it should be made before or after the worship begins. With respect to leading singing, again, it's my opinion that that's primarily the pastor's responsibility to lead the singing of the congregation.

And there is in that an element of authority. There's lots of women that have lots of gifts and even other things that we are talking about.

I've talked to a number of musicians. There's nobody who is innately tone deaf.

Anybody can learn to carry a tune. I encourage my students to be sure they develop their ability to do that, or one of the elders also, who

I think may lead in worship, should lead the singing.

And even then, I see no need for anything but announcing the hymn or psalm.

We don't need arm waving or stuff like that. We can have a companist who will keep us both on pitch and pace.

So I don't make exceptions for either one of those things.

So all the elements of worship then, I believe, require male leadership, and that would be either the minister or an elder or a young man that the church is testing and preparing to be a minister.

We have an anonymous listener who has a question about that. How do you respond to someone who says, in response to what you are saying, that ministers should be the sole individuals leading any kind of act of worship, that you are violating the whole concept of the priesthood of believers and are driving too far of a wedge between an ordained so -called clergy and faithful brothers and sisters in Christ who are gathered in the pews to worship?

Good question. In the first place, I don't use the word clergy. I don't think there's such a person.

But the act of ordination is a God -ordained act. God has given to the minister certain responsibilities, namely, to lead worship, to read

Scripture, and to preach. And I have a very high view of Roman elders who also are ordained to surely be leading in prayer or reading

Scripture. The priesthood of believers, you need to understand, has nothing to do about acts of authority that God has appointed in the

Church. I mean, He's the one that says, for example, in 1 Timothy 2,

I want men in every place to pray, lifting up holy hands without wrath and dissension.

We don't have the prophethood of all believers. We don't have the kingship of all believers. The priesthood of believers means simply that because of our justification and union with Christ, we all come to God in prayer and are accepted in our private prayers and family prayers.

But then in corporate worship, we are accepted individually as well as corporately because of the priesthood of believers.

It has nothing to do with authority in the Church. So basically you are saying that ministers should be, or as you were also hinting at, those that are in training to become ministers should be the only ones at a pulpit.

And I also said Roman elders. I know in some of the Calvinist and Baptist churches, they don't make a distinction that I make.

If you don't make that distinction, and I want to add to that, that in my system of government, a ruling elder is not simply someone who makes executive decisions for the

Church, but a pastor, and he, too, may exercise that authority in a corporate setting.

Right, yeah. In fact, where I am a member, Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania, which you may fondly remember as the place where Walt Chantry was the pastor for 40 years.

I know the Church well, and one of my graduates is a pastor there now. Oh, yes, that's right, John Miller.

Yeah, we are one of the rare Reformed Baptists that I'm familiar with, Reformed Baptist churches, that does at least by title distinguish between pastors and elders.

Most Reformed Baptist churches that I have been involved in and where I've been a member have equated the two offices even by title.

They will call every elder a pastor. At Grace Baptist, it's an exception. We only have the full -time preaching and teaching elders who are also supported financially full -time.

They call them the pastors. The rest of them are elders. I think we have that distinction in 1

Timothy 5. Is it 5 .13? Well, in regard to only elders or those in training to be elders, leading anything that is being conducted in the worship service, that would obviously preclude women from doing anything in a public fashion, including the reading of Scripture or anything like that.

Correct. And we do have a question about the

Great Commission from CJ in Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York.

Is the Great Commission given to every Christian or just to those in leadership in local congregations because of the fact that the

Great Commission includes baptizing? And I know that most Reformed churches will only permit an elder to baptize someone.

It seems to me that the Great Commission is given to all of us, and if a man in good standing wishes to baptize his child or a friend in the public worship service,

I see no sin in that. Well, the Great Commission is actually given to the apostles, and because it's given to the apostles, it's given to the church.

We have to distinguish, though, between this responsibility that's given to the church and a privilege that all of us have, according to our gifts and opportunities, to share at best our testimony, at least our testimony, and those that will have the gifts to make more coordinated presentations of the gospel.

The sacraments are visible expressions of the word.

They are the word of God addressed to the senses, and because of that, the church has recognized throughout the centuries that it's part of the preaching task.

So in 1 Corinthians 4, verse 1, Paul says that he is a servant of God and a steward of the mysteries of the gospel, and the primary meaning of mysteries of the gospel are the great gospel mysteries that Paul will define, unfolding fully now that which was in a very shadowy form revealed in the

Old Testament, but because part of the mystery of the gospel is our union with Christ, some of the best commentators throughout the centuries, like John Calvin, or much later,

Poole, say that this includes that part of the stewardship of the minister of the gospel is, in fact, the sacraments.

The mysteries are one of the terms that have been used in the church to explain the sacraments.

So we see it as part of preaching, and the man that set aside to the task of preaching is the man that does the visible preaching in the sacraments and does the benediction.

We have no examples that I know of in Scripture where a non -ordained man is ever administering the sacraments.

Well, how about preaching? I'll give you an example.

One of the things that Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania does is we will only have an elder or a pastor preach from the pulpit, or an elder or a pastor representing a different church who's visiting as a guest speaker.

But that is in the public corporate worship of our own congregation. They will send out people to different areas that have special ministries outside the four walls of our church to preach.

I've even preached a number of times at a men's mission. So is that something that would be different from somebody actually leading in the ordinances, where you're having somebody go out and evangelize or preach and teach that is not ordained?

I'm not ordained, by the way. And so therefore, do you find that an acceptable practice where men are chosen to do this?

What I find, and this will be another good program, the Bible defines preaching for us.

Preaching is not the only form of communication and not the only form of evangelization.

Preaching, I think, is clearly defined in the Bible as the authoritative public proclamation of the word of God by a man that Christ has set aside to that task.

So no, I would not call that preaching. It can be exhorting. It can be different forms of evangelism.

But I think that anytime we're talking about preaching, as I understand the Bible has defined preaching, then that is to be done by the man that's been set aside to that task.

But even though you would use a different term, it may appear identical to what the pastor is doing from the pulpit.

I mean, I'm opening up the word of God. It may be, but it doesn't have the same promises attached to it or the same authority.

I see. Let's see, we have B .B.

in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania who wants to know, how do you respond to anyone who would say that we put things under a microscope like you two are doing in this program?

We are really taking any heartfelt, passionate joy and exuberant excitement out of what we are to do in worship by making it too much of a meticulous attachment to a blueprint.

I'm not talking about totally ignoring the regulative principle of worship.

And I'm not accusing either of you for doing what I am saying someone might view this as, but I was just wondering how you would respond to people who make that accusation.

I appreciate that, B .B. Just remember why God struck us the dead.

All he did was, in innocence, reach up and touch the ark because it was tottering.

It was tottering because it was being moved in the way contrary to what God had revealed.

Right. It seemed like the instinct of a person wanting to do the right thing.

Right. But God struck him dead. Not that he was a rebel or unconverted.

And then Nadab and Abihu, who simply took some different fire than the fire of the altar to burn the incense.

Jeremiah Burroughs has an excellent book, Chris, Gospel Worship, where he takes that as his text and develops a series of sermons on that text about how we sanctify

God's name in worship. Our God is a holy

God. And if we want to confuse precision with his demands, well, we could, but I will do that in that because he is a holy

God. He has told us precisely how we are to approach him.

And he delights when we approach him. Remember even in Hebrews 12, after the contrast there between the old covenant and the new covenant in chapter 12, at the end of that chapter, he deals with coming to worship

God and he concludes that with remembering that our God is a consuming fire. And our problem today is not recognizing the holy, awesome nature.

We're entering into the throne room of heaven. We are before the throne of God in corporate worship in the way that we in no other act that we do this side of heaven.

And we need to become much more mindful of it. It in no way should hinder joy.

Calvin deals with this in Psalm 2, for example. Rejoice with trembling.

And these two elements must always be together in our corporate worship. And we have to go to our final break, which is going to be a lot more brief than the other breaks.

If you do have a question for Dr. Piper, please send it in immediately because we're rapidly running out of time. ChrisOrenson at gmail .com.

ChrisOrenson at gmail .com. First name, city and state, and country of residence. Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages.

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I'm Dr. Joseph Piper, President Emeritus and Professor of Systematic and Applied Theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary.

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Thursday, September 22nd 11am to 2pm at Church of the Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania for Chris Arnzen's Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Free Pastors Luncheon Welcome back

Dr. Joseph Piper we do have a question from RJ in Westchester, New York RJ says

I have seen reformed churches celebrate the Lord's Supper with two different postures and please forgive me for asking a posture question in the second hour but sometimes the individuals in the congregation will be sitting in their pews when they receive the elements of the table and partake of them in other churches

I have seen the members of the congregation go forward if they are qualified to receive the table and they receive the elements from the elders right in front of the pulpit which is your preference and are these different postures based on the word of God?

I assume you don't agree with the Roman Catholic practice of kneeling because we do not believe that the bread and wine are truly his body and blood

Thank you that's a good question from the

Reformation there were three postures in receiving the Lord's Supper Zwingli distributed in the pew

Calvin had the people come forward and in the Dutch and later in the

Scottish tradition they sat at a table together Westminster Assembly had proponents of the different views and their compromised language was that in the distribution of the elements people should be at or around the table and so this was allowing for all three there's not one that is more biblical than the other and there are advantages to each one the table is nice in that we can express greater unity there of the body coming forward is nice in that it fulfills other aspects of what is happening symbolically in the

Lord's table as is sitting in the pew we practice right now at Antioch the church that Pastor Roth and I are starting and by the way just another for your ad the

NASB is our pulpit and pew bible at Antioch oh great well the publishers will be thrilled to hear that we

I'm seriously considering the coming forward and having a common cup that's the advantage of coming forward that's also the advantage of being at the table that's the advantage you lose in the distribution down the pews the common cup again is a very ancient tradition part of the reason that us took to death in fact

I had the privilege of worshiping in a church in Arabia about 10 years after the

Velvet Revolution we stood in a circle and passed a common cup amongst ourselves and there's no danger in that I've checked a number of positions a sterling cup with a linen napkin and wine which

I believe will be revealed is no germ survives in that situation well there's somebody who's really rebelling against the

COVID hysteria that's right so there's no one way and each has its advantages and you could say disadvantages in terms of the symbolism one advantage that I see in the congregants going forward is that it prevents the temptation of an unbeliever or somebody who's under church discipline in another church or whoever that person may be who is not qualified to receive the elements that when you're sitting down and you're passing the tray or tray is plural when you're passing it to somebody who is in that category of not being a proper candidate to receive the elements it may be a temptation just because they don't want to embarrass themselves that's why elders distribute the elements when it's distributed in the pews they know who should be taken and who should not be taken so nobody is actually passing the plates in the pews elders will pass it down each aisle but they know who's taken and who's not

I see well if I guess a congregation is large enough that may be difficult for even an elder to watch over that the big disadvantage of the table which has many advantages is that if the congregation is of any size at all they're going to have what they call more than one sitting and so then you lose the whole idea of the unity that's expressed in a small congregation but the other disadvantage is lack of frequency again in the

Westminster Directory of Worship they advocate frequency according to the wisdom and discretion of the elders

I have moved toward weekly communion recently last few years and because of the grace that is connected to the sacrament so there's advantages and disadvantages and well

I'll leave it there yes that seems to be a growing trend amongst

Reformed churches to have a weekly observance of the Lord's Supper and I'm 100 % in favor of that yes let's see here we have another anonymous listener who says speaking of leadership in the church one thing that I have become increasingly uncomfortable with is when a praise band will have its lead singer begin to pontificate from the stage and act as if this is an ordained leader of the church when in reality he's just a talented musician in parentheses or her and I do not think that this is conducive to congregational worship it seems more like entertainment to me what is your guest's thought on this yes

I agree with Mr. or Mrs. Anonymous or Miss Anonymous 100 % and probably go even further than he or she would go a praise band is in fact a detraction from the corporate nature of worship and singing and that temptation is often there same thing

I've seen churches where just the pianist takes opportunity to give some testimony or exhortation before a hymn or a song

I think that's out of place I think the congregation is the choir and I don't most of the churches

I've served in the past had choirs it's not an issue that I would have raised but in planning the church we sought again to follow the form principle that the congregation is the choir and we just get rid of the special music you can pray vicariously by its nature but you can't sing vicariously and you don't need to be sung at or on behalf of but that's pretty radical

I know well before I take any more listener questions

I'd like you to have several minutes of uninterrupted time to really summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners regarding who should and who should not lead worship

I know it's an issue in my denomination the Presbyterian Church in America and it is a growing issue

I think that probably somewhat motivated by not wanting to appear authoritative in our egalitarian age in which we live but again under the regular principle of worship it's revealed who should be leading worship and so from the call to worship through the benediction

I believe very biblically defensible that only ordained men and men being prepared for the ministry should lead in any of the acts of worship well we do have

I'm sorry keep going the Paul's instructions in 1st

Timothy 2 are very telling with regard to this because after he addresses one verse to men leading worship by the way there's lots of qualifications thrown into that so he says

I want men in every place to pray lifting up holy hands without wrath and dissension there are three spiritual qualifications there and that is there to be holy men and there to do not to be men are known for wrath and dissension these all tie into the qualifications of the elders that he gives in the very next chapter second all acts of worship led are acts that are authoritative

William Perkins said that the pastor the prophet had two roles to speak to the congregation on behalf of God and to lead the congregation in speaking to God our prayers are to be biblical he must be a man who has very good keen theological discernment he must be a man who has gifts in that area he takes he says a lot in that one verse and I apply what

I think are genuine inferences from that verse but then he takes rest of the chapter to address women in the church now

I think he did this because in the gentile culture it was something that needed to be much more addressed than it would have been in a

Jewish culture there was never anybody but an ordained person that was leading any act of worship in the

Old Testament so he deals with the character of women in the church then he goes into he says they are to listen in silence and then he says they're not to teach or have authority over men and then to demonstrate that he's talking here not about culture but biblical truth he roots it in to in Corinthians he says according to the law women should be silent here he spells it out goes back to Genesis 2 and 3 in Adam's creation first God established an authority structure has nothing to do with person or equality or image bearers of the

God but in the home and in the church in particular then he says that Eve was deceived and by her own confession she was deceived this is why she's not to have authority or teaching position in the church

I think even teaching men now she has great roles in the church and they're basically her domestic roles and so care service mercy teaching other women teaching children unifying the church all these aspects of femininity one of the big issues that we have today and I think we see it both in the side

B on the sexuality and in what I call reformed feminism is people are not willing to say that there are created on the logical differences between men and women by that I mean by the very nature of manness and womaness and so there's a lot of push back now because people don't want to make that common distinction now very briefly because we're almost out of time a lot of the arguments or debates between brethren over complementarianism and egalitarianism stem from disagreement over Priscilla's role in her household was she not along with her husband instructing new believers that's why

I use the word formal with respect to teaching informally which is all we ever have there with Priscilla and Aquila yes we sit here in my house

I learn from my wife it's just as she learns from me we have guests we have robust conversations and a woman has a very important role there but that's an informal role it's not a formal role in the life of the congregation well before I give the website again for Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary do you have any contact information for the new church plant that you are currently involved in yes it would be

Antioch Presbyterian Church in America it's a website that you can go to and learn about the church

I think all our messages are accessible there as well and the actual website is

Antioch Presbyterian Church in America or is that what you would google to find that uh

I'm not the techie that's what I google to find it ok and that is located specifically where it is in Taylor South Carolina it's in the country in Spartanburg County it's right in between Greer and Woodruff South Carolina Highway 101 great and as far as the

Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary remember folks it is gpts .edu

G for Greenville P for Presbyterian T for Theological S for Seminary .edu

Thank you so much Dr. Piper as we both agreed at the beginning of the program we must not wait so long before you return as a guest

I want to thank you so much for being a superb guest I want to thank everybody for listening and I hope you all always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater