June 7, 2022 Show with Dr. Joseph A. Pipa on “Posture in Worship: Does it Matter & What Does it Convey?” and “Who Should (& Who Should Not) Lead Public Worship?”

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Afternoon Cumberland County, Pennsylvania. Lake City, Florida. And the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth. We're listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron radio .com. This is Chris Arnzen your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this seventh day of June 2022.

I'm thrilled to have back as a returning guest to iron sharpens iron radio. Dr Joseph a Piper jr who is an author of over one dozen books and president emeritus and professor of practical and applied theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Taylors, South Carolina.

We're addressing two topics today the first hour. We're going to be addressing Posture in worship does it matter and what does it convey and the second hour? We will be discussing who should and who should not lead public worship.

That's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens iron radio. Dr. Joseph a Piper jr.

I could be back with you. It's been way too long.

Yes, we got to make it a point to not let such a long gap in between our interviews occur.

Well, and that's my fault and not yours. You've reached out a number of times by the way, it's professor of systematic and apply.

Okay, I don't know how I get that mistake there, but I will correct that and Tell our listeners about Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary.

Well seminary was founded in 1987 by dr. Morton H the founding professor. It was from committed to an experimental Calvinism. I came over in January of 98 is the half years Designer tried for this summer and yes, I've interviewed Jonathan in the past and I'd love to have him back on the program.

I'm bumped into him at the banner of truth conference. That was held recently in Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania. And he expressed his great interest in returning as a guest and by the way Pat Daly of the banner of truth.

Also extends his greetings to you. We're excited. The package. Yes. I had heard that.

Well, if anybody wants more information about Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Taylors, South Carolina their website is gpts .edu G for Greenville P for Presbyterian T for theological s for seminary.

Edu.

Gpts .edu. Well, this is an interesting subject that we are about to Explore this first subject. I never have in my memory.

Posture in Worship and the Meaning of Bodily Actions

Devoted.

An hour during this two-hour program to the subject of posture in worship doesn't matter and what does it convey and. Tell us about what compelled you to actually suggest this topic very strongly.

For a number of years and actually working on a book on going back to the before the body and worship how it wants to be.

Yes, they do people.

People who are called to to worship God and the Bible is full of instruction. Calvin and and the Puritans made a great deal of it.

Well, let's go through some of these postures that you believe are to have an important present in The public worship of God's people. Let's start with standing. I know that Standing has a prominent place typically, especially in Reformed churches.

People stand when the Bible is read. People stand when they sing perhaps. Not for every single song but in some congregations it would be for every single song. Tell us about standing.

Let me just do one guiding principle. Chris sure do that and that is as we talk about posture one of the.

Things that.

Against is individualistic are things that we should do together as a congregation unless someone is Physically unable to use one of individual amens and I know of one Congregation where one assisted on standing for prayer in the midst of the car becomes much more.

Yeah, well, that's just what first stuck in my mind or came prominent in my thinking knowing that in Reformed circles. Typically, the only time that we're sitting is when we're hearing the word preached.

But.

If you could move on with the importance, that's at least down here in standing. Well, that's why I emphasize the word preached not read. Right, no, but I'm saying a reading of Scripture. It's not been a practice in many of in both for the reading of it was used in the synagogue the synagogue the people or the preaching of.

In Nehemiah 8, I believe that we should be.

Now, would you say that this standing in? The reading of the word. That it is something that conveys respect as you were saying because that seems to be a tradition Throughout history even when we go outside the boundaries of Christianity or even religion itself.

Standing in the presence of a very important person. That may be in your presence. It may be a dignitary may be a President and other countries that may be a king and. To be sitting there when someone arrives in the room who possesses great importance Would be seen as a sign of disrespect that it seems universally.

So.

Yes, now one of the controversial areas of.

Public worship amongst reformed people doesn't seem to be controversial anywhere else. Is the raising of holy hands in worship? Obviously, this has become a key element in Pentecostal and charismatic worship and these days in the 21st century even those that are cessationist churches outside of Pentecostal ism and the charismatic movement are Frequently seen lifting holy hands, but we seem to be an oddball in the bunch.

I guess reformed folks and fundamentalists Seem to be the only ones these days that rarely. Do you see someone raising holy hands? Can you express your views on this?

Yes. Again, keep in mind that little caveat more began and that is if we are to raise hands It's not to be individuals of the congregation whether they feel moved to do so when we say that if we do find it often in Scripture and But it's all it's done is a corporate act.

Now in 1st Timothy 2a we see that the one leading in prayer is to lift his hands but in many other places that Nehemiah 8 psalm 28 psalm 63 psalm.

143.

God calls on his people singing and there are many others. Lee. On behalf of congregation by the minister. Recommended either for the old indication or I know posture to go.

A connection with that and then that's usually just a brush dandruff off.

One psalm 88 9 or psalm 143 6 that talks about psalmist of hands stretched out to God in faith so in a benediction, which is God placing his name upon us pronouncing a blessing upon us. I like the outstretched hand from the waist as.

A.

Posture that is saying yes in faith to that blessing that God is pronouncing. So you're saying that this posture.

It would be a positive thing if the congregation was joining the one.

Pronouncing the benediction. In doing this hands are lifted. No his hands are lifted up. Palm down. That's the posture for the leader because that's a we find that from from Numbers chapter 6. But the congregations response is about palm up.

Which is a posture of reception. A lot of our reform can know why? And it's not being done. Corporate. That's one of the postures now that we have introduced and that is the extended. The minister has palm down and that's the posture again of God.

Blessing is put in his name upon now since you are saying that you are not in agreement.

With individual Spontaneity when it comes to these things. Are you saying that these gestures and postures should be done? At a.

Verbal a vocal signal by the preacher. That's probably the best way to do it particularly as as The congregation is learning. It's also good when visited and then periodically in worship or whatever postures.

We we explain them but because we do a number of things that are a bit different We do explain those things. Now, how would you respond to someone?

They might especially be responding in this way if they were Pentecostal or charismatic, but not necessarily exclusively. They might say that this is Very robotic and removes a.

Genuineness of.

Joy or Thanksgiving or gratefulness when you are removing the spontaneity from it and it is only being done when others are doing so at The initiation of the preacher that might be become right just very robotic.

It's something that you do that has no meaning to it. I can remember being raised as a Roman Catholic. And going to church and there were many different postures right and hand movements that were very robotic and I Will be very confident to say that if you were to interview Roman Catholics on why they are doing these things I would say probably close to 90 if not more would say I have no idea.

That's just the way we do these things.

Right, yeah, I know. You must always teach is not to have an outward spontaneus express as long as we understand what actual spots the examples we find in Scripture that's there and anything in our now is one of the reasons why you have a.

Negative reaction or even a negative view of Individualism and spontaneity in regards to these things and others in a corporate worship service is because a person whether consciously or unconsciously is drawing attention to themselves rather to what is being proclaimed from the pulpit and They are putting the spotlight on themselves and this would be wrong in your opinion.

Why. Because there are some especially in Pentecostal and charismatic circles and I keep bringing that up, but it's just because there are very different postures and behaviors typically but between our brothers and sisters in those congregations and those that are typically reform they would view that as Something that is an encouragement and an inspiration To others witnessing it.

Oh look at this brother or sister how much? Filled with the Holy Spirit they are at this moment and it's perhaps meant to provoke others to.

Find that much exuberant joy in what they are hearing and witnessing are coming in. Also gazing sleeping. Other indecent behavior, which may disturb the ministry of people are hindered themselves or others in the service of God.

If you need to necessarily be hindered from being present beginning he ought not been to come in and Congregation be taken themselves to the private devotions, but reverently composed themselves to join with the assembly.

In that ordinance of God, which is that a lot of our problem is most people are making Commanded by God and what it means to be some of the reasons that we don't any would eventually do what we do.

Now perhaps it would have been wise for me to even start this program at the very beginning. For having you define what worship is because even.

Amongst.

Professedly Bible-believing Christians there seems to be a difference of Understanding like one thing my friend. Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega ministries. One thing that really irritates him when he has been invited to speak at a church or a conference.

Where after? The singing portion has been completed the either the song leader or the pastor or someone else will get up to the podium and Say now that our time of worship has been completed.

Well.

It's time for us to hear a word from our speaker as if the proclamation of the Word of God is not worship. So perhaps you could tell us what you believe worship to be.

Okay, psalm 100 in a message I have in a chapter in this book to get into the purpose look at the commandments. There are. The psalm is entitled Raven worships the activity of the new life of believer in which Recognized in the fullness of the Godhead as is revealed in the first he seeks by the power of the Holy Spirit to render the living God glory honor and submission.

But at the end of quote is the highest expression James Vanderman described. Other than the manner and the way which centers associated together in a church are permitted and their collective capacity to hold intercourse with God Maintained in a right and befitting way their fellowship with him.

The Bible teaches that we come into God's presence. Reveals that he wants this thing and in fact singing is a significantly minor part. The reading of scripture publicly not the call told him until I come give attention to the public reading of the word and the church has historically understood that that.

Reading a scripture. And going back to the regulative principle which many but not all but many.

Reformed Christians incorporate into their Life as a church and their worship. And you can correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding of the regulative principle Silence in the New Testament is viewed as a prohibition rather than a license for a Liberty and freedom in the way we worship.

We are in other words those that Believe in the regulative principle as opposed to the normative principle. We would not want to include anything That is not specifically mentioned by command or example in the New Testament as a Means of worship.

Now when I when I emphasize the New Testament Obviously the New Testament includes some of those Old Testament Actions such as such as the singing of Psalms.

We then are defeated by Christ to the woman. In Samaria, so the things that we find in the New Testament are simply the things and they've been fulfilled. The weekly Sabbath was for a holy convocation and that means corporate.

They didn't go to that. So we know but they were meeting houses and all the cities when the psalmist laments the destruction. Let's say God didn't start during the exile it it maybe got that name. But the meeting houses were obviously in use all over.

So this whole idea of corporate worship that was the primary reason for Leviticus 23 for the Sabbath and that Continues that up until today.

We have to go to our first break right now. If anybody has a question for Dr. Joseph Piper, please send it to Chris Arnson at gmail .com. Chris Arnson at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least your city and state and your country of residence.

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Dr. Joseph Piper President emeritus and professor of systematic and applied theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary. Every Christian who's serious about the deformed faith and the Westminster standards should have and use the eight volume commentary on the theology and ethics of the Westminster larger catechism titled Authentic Christianity by dr. Joseph more craft.

It is much more than an exposition of the larger catechism. It is a thoroughly researched work. Utilizes biblical exegesis as well as historical and systematic theology. Dr. Moore craft is pastor of Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia.

And I urge everyone looking for a biblically faithful church in that area to visit that fine congregation. For details on the eight volume commentary go to. Westminster commentary calm. Westminster commentary calm.

For details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia visit. Heritage Presbyterian Church dot-com. Heritage Presbyterian Church dot-com. Please tell dr. Moore craft and the Saints at Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia That dr. Joseph Piper of Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary sent you.

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The first hour of the program we are addressing Addressing posture and worship. If you have a question, please send it to Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris a are n ze n at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least city and state and country of residence.

We have Ted in Moundville, Alabama. I am very pleased that you are addressing this important topic today. I recall listening to a podcast episode of Reformed forum with Camden Busey and our mutual friend. Dr Jeff Waddington in which the two of them had a brief discussion about body posture when offering the benediction at the end of the service.

Camden had mentioned in passing that when he was a seminarian conducting a worship service. He would not extend his hands in the Orin's O-r-a-n-s posture and that he was committing here that he was committed to waiting until he was ordained.

Before he would assume this posture while offering the benediction. I had never heard of this distinction before and I was wondering what the biblical rationale behind it might be. I've also noticed that in some congregations including decidedly non charismatic Congregations that some congregants will assume the Orin's posture while receiving the benediction.

In your view, is there something that these congregants should not do?

Speaking in church office in numbers six. That only the man who has been or is the one who then comes Mount God's giving the benediction. So on that so I instruct our guys who go that if there is no path the Congregation as I said, those should not have their hands up and look into.

That again goes back to number six and the outstretched Hand palm down. Is that is the biblical symbol then. That God's the one bestowing the blessing. So the congregation as I said earlier If they want to exercise the posture and do that together, they extend their hands waist high.

Palm up as the act of receiving.

Well, thank you Ted, let's move on to kneeling.

As.

I said earlier I was raised Roman Catholic and there's far more kneeling going on in a public act of worship in a Roman Catholic Church than I've ever seen in evangelical Protestantism, especially reformed circles.

In evangelical circles that are Arminian and have the practice of the altar call You will typically only see kneeling when people go forward and they kneel at a railing in front of the the pulpit and They will receive a blessing as they recite the sinner's prayer or something.

But I have been told that one of the reasons reformed people typically don't have kneeling or kneelers in the pews as Roman Catholic churches do is Because they want to distance themselves from an act of idolatry that is actually taking place in a Roman Catholic Church.

And that many people might not know this but the primary reason why a Roman Catholic when entering into a church building Crosses him or herself and genuflects Which is like a halfway kneel. Or kneels in a pew with a kneeler that flips up and down Is because they are actually worshiping Jesus Christ in his physical presence, which they believe is present in the Eucharist.

They believe that a consecrated host is Jesus Christ soul body and divinity and those hosts in the sub orium or monstrance they believe that's Jesus so they are kneeling and reformed folk view that as an act of idolatry, but do you think that a proper View of kneeling or kneeling in a proper way when viewed and acted upon Biblically where you're only worshiping Our Lord God Savior and King and not bread and wine.

Do you think kneeling would be a positive addition to a reformed worship service or not?

The Goes back far long before there was ever of the host is involved in Romanism. In fact Calvin and the reformers All used kneeling. Let me just point out that in the Bible. There are three postures.

For prayer and sitting is not one of them. Prostration which is good, but the two that are most appropriate for public worship are standing and kneeling exhortations toward both. Standing comfortably of the first day of the public in at least 18 by this.

Kneeling then is mentioned throughout scripture as a fit posture in prayer to Chronicles 6 Ezra 9 Daniel 6 Luke 22 Acts 20 Ephesians 3. Isaac watch wrote. Kneeling is the most frequent posture used in this worship in nature.

Seems to indicate and lead us in a humility of supplication for mercy and of adoration. Dependence upon him before it's been practiced and even with a lot of scriptures never shines. It might be done conveniently would be certainly most agreeable posture for the worship of God and publicist and advocated.

They hear reverence, which is how their needs should be reformed, which is a matter repugnant. But there should be advised this on time of prayer unless anyone so lost when evangelicalism and by the way, dr.

Piper if you could make sure that whenever you're speaking you're speaking close to whatever mouthpiece you're using because sometimes.

I'm sorry.

Sometimes you fade off.

We started Enlightenment. Now you talked about standing first. See that's another time as well as prayer and reading a scripture that I think people would React again. There's nothing at all wrong about that and people can sing as long as they know how to sing.

Stand up stood up straight. They can sing but it's locked and and many a vocal posture of prayer. One instead before the Lord, but obviously he didn't have chairs. That was probably sitting back on the tauntious I was about playing but you never found sitting as an appropriate posture in prayer.

Now Calvin points out with these things of form that we're not sitting if we don't do this.

So you are advocating that? Reformed churches and basically all Bible believing churches Incorporate Kneelers those flipping up and down Devices at the bottom of a pew. You are advocating that we begin to use these Just as as Roman Catholics have been doing for centuries, but for a very different reason.

You're saying this would be right. Because the only time I can recall seeing anyone kneel in a reformed worship service and maybe miss. Remembering. But the only time I can recall seeing it was when a person is being ordained to an office and the elders lay their hands upon that man.

The man is very often if not most often kneeling while the surround while being surrounded by elders Who have their eyes laid upon. I don't recall ever seeing somebody kneeling.

Probably not.

So I have often wondered about that myself about including the the attachment of Kneelers and pews and reformed church.

If you don't have that money, you can get the Christian ones that simply push up under the seat in front of you. Hmm.

That's fascinating. Well, uh when we come back from the midway break, I'm gonna allow you to summarize What you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners regarding posture in worship. And then we'll continue on with our second topic of the day Which has to do with who should and who should not lead public worship but we have to go to our midway break right now folks and please be patient with us because it is as Always every day the longer break in the middle of the show because grace life radio 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida Requires of us a longer break in the middle of the show because the FCC requires of them To air their own public service announcements and other local things that geographically Attach iron sharpens iron radio to Lake City, Florida.

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