June 7, 2022 Show with Dr. Joseph A. Pipa on “Posture in Worship: Does it Matter & What Does it Convey?” and “Who Should (& Who Should Not) Lead Public Worship?”

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Afternoon Cumberland County, Pennsylvania.

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This is Chris Arnzen your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this seventh day

of June 2022.

I'm thrilled to have back as a returning guest to iron sharpens iron radio. Dr

Joseph a Piper jr who is an author of over one dozen books and president

emeritus and professor of practical and applied theology at Greenville Presbyterian

Theological Seminary in Taylors, South Carolina.

We're addressing two topics today the first hour. We're going to be addressing Posture in worship

does it matter and what does it convey and the second hour?

We will be discussing who should and who should not lead public worship.

That's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens iron radio.

Dr. Joseph a Piper jr.

I could be back with you.

It's been way too long.

Yes, we got to make it a point to not let such a long gap in between our interviews

occur.

Well, and that's my fault and not yours.

You've reached out a number of times by the way, it's professor of systematic and apply.

Okay, I don't know how I get that mistake there, but I will correct that and

Tell our listeners about Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary.

Well seminary was founded in 1987 by dr. Morton H the

founding professor.

It was from

committed to an experimental Calvinism.

I

came over in

January of 98 is the half years

Designer tried for

this summer and yes, I've interviewed Jonathan in the past and

I'd love to have him back on the program.

I'm bumped into him at the banner of truth conference.

That was held recently in Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania.

And he expressed his great interest in returning as a guest and by the way Pat Daly of the

banner of truth.

Also extends his greetings to you.

We're excited.

The package.

Yes.

I had heard that.

Well, if anybody wants more information about Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary in

Taylors, South Carolina their website is

gpts .edu G for Greenville P for

Presbyterian T for theological s for seminary.

Edu.

Gpts .edu.

Well, this is an interesting subject that we are about to Explore

this first subject.

I never have in my memory.

Devoted.

An hour during this two -hour program to the subject of posture in

worship doesn't matter and what does it convey and.

Tell us about what compelled you to actually suggest this topic very strongly.

For a number of years and actually working on a book on

going back to the before the

body and worship how

it wants to be.

Yes, they do people.

People who are called to to worship God and the Bible is full of instruction.

Calvin and and the

Puritans made a great deal of it.

Well, let's go through some of these postures that you believe are to have an

important present in The public worship of God's people.

Let's start with standing.

I know that Standing has a prominent place

typically, especially in Reformed churches.

People stand when the Bible is read.

People stand when they sing perhaps.

Not for every single song but in some congregations it would be for every single song.

Tell us about standing.

Let me just do one guiding principle.

Chris sure do that and that is as we talk about posture one of the.

Things that.

Against is individualistic are things

that we should do together as a congregation unless someone is

Physically unable to use

one of individual

amens and I know of one Congregation where one

assisted on standing for prayer in the

midst of the car becomes much more.

Yeah, well, that's just what first stuck in my mind or came prominent in my thinking

knowing that in Reformed circles.

Typically, the only time that we're sitting is when we're hearing the word preached.

But.

If you could move on with the importance,

that's at least down here in

standing.

Well, that's why I emphasize the word preached not read.

Right, no, but I'm saying a reading of Scripture.

It's not

been

a practice

in many of in both for the reading

of it was used in the

synagogue

the synagogue the people or the

preaching of.

In

Nehemiah 8, I believe that we should be.

Now, would you say that this standing in?

The reading of the word.

That it is something that conveys respect as you were saying

because that seems to be a tradition Throughout history even

when we go outside the boundaries of Christianity or even religion itself.

Standing in the presence of a very important person.

That may be in your presence.

It may be a dignitary may be a President and other countries that may be a

king and.

To be sitting there when someone arrives in the room who possesses great importance Would

be seen as a sign of disrespect that it seems universally.

So.

Yes,

now one of the controversial areas of.

Public worship amongst reformed people doesn't seem to be controversial anywhere else.

Is the raising of holy hands in worship?

Obviously, this has become a key element in

Pentecostal and charismatic worship and these days in the 21st century

even those that are cessationist churches outside of Pentecostal ism and the

charismatic movement are Frequently seen lifting holy hands, but we seem to be an

oddball in the bunch.

I guess reformed folks and fundamentalists Seem to be the only ones these

days that rarely.

Do you see someone raising holy hands?

Can you express your views on this?

Yes.

Again, keep in mind that little caveat more began and that is if we are to raise

hands It's not to be individuals of the congregation whether they

feel moved to do so when we say that if we do find it often in Scripture and

But it's all it's done is a corporate act.

Now in 1st Timothy 2a we see that the one leading in prayer is to lift his hands but in

many other places that Nehemiah 8 psalm 28 psalm

63 psalm.

143.

God calls on his people

singing

and there are many

others.

Lee.

On behalf of

congregation

by

the

minister.

Recommended either for the old indication

or I

know

posture

to go.

A connection with that and then that's usually just a brush dandruff off.

One

psalm

88 9 or psalm 143 6 that talks about psalmist of

hands stretched out to God in faith so in a benediction, which is

God placing his name upon us pronouncing a blessing upon us.

I like the outstretched hand from the waist as.

A.

Posture that is saying yes in faith to that blessing that God is

pronouncing.

So you're saying that this posture.

It would be a positive thing if the congregation was joining the one.

Pronouncing the benediction.

In doing this hands are lifted.

No his hands are lifted up.

Palm down.

That's the posture for the leader because that's a we find that from from Numbers chapter 6.

But the congregations response is about palm up.

Which is a posture of reception.

A lot of our reform can know why?

And it's not being done.

Corporate.

That's one of the postures now that we have introduced and that is

the extended.

The minister has palm down and that's the

posture again of God.

Blessing is put in his name upon

now since you are saying that you are not in agreement.

With individual Spontaneity when it comes to these things.

Are you saying that these gestures and postures should be done?

At a.

Verbal a vocal signal by the preacher.

That's probably the best way to do it particularly as as The congregation is learning.

It's also good when visited and then periodically in worship

or whatever postures.

We we explain them but

because we do a number of things that are a bit different We do explain those things.

Now, how would you respond to someone?

They might especially be responding in this way if they were Pentecostal or charismatic, but not necessarily

exclusively.

They might say that this is Very robotic and

removes a.

Genuineness of.

Joy or Thanksgiving or gratefulness when you are removing the spontaneity from it and

it is only being done when others are doing so at The initiation of

the preacher that might be become right just very robotic.

It's something that you do that has no meaning to it.

I can remember being raised as a Roman Catholic.

And going to church and there were many different postures right and hand movements that were very robotic

and I Will be very confident to say that if you were to interview

Roman Catholics on why they are doing these things I would say probably close to 90 if

not more would say I have no idea.

That's just the way we do these things.

Right, yeah, I know.

You must

always

teach is not to have an outward spontaneus express as

long as we

understand

what

actual

spots the

examples we find in Scripture that's

there

and anything in our now

is one

of

the reasons

why you have a.

Negative reaction or even a negative view

of Individualism and spontaneity in regards to these things and others in a corporate worship service

is because a person whether consciously or unconsciously is drawing

attention to themselves rather to what is being proclaimed from the pulpit

and They are putting the

spotlight on themselves and this would

be wrong in your opinion.

Why.

Because there are some especially in Pentecostal and charismatic circles and I keep bringing that up, but it's

just because there are very different postures and behaviors typically but

between our brothers and sisters in those congregations and those that are

typically reform they would view that as Something that

is an encouragement and an inspiration To others witnessing it.

Oh look at this brother or sister how much?

Filled with the Holy Spirit they are at this moment and it's perhaps

meant to provoke others to.

Find that much exuberant joy in what

they

are hearing and

witnessing

are coming

in.

Also gazing sleeping.

Other indecent behavior, which may disturb the ministry of people are hindered themselves or others in the service of God.

If you need to necessarily be hindered from being present beginning he ought not been to come in and

Congregation be taken themselves to the private devotions, but reverently composed themselves to join with the assembly.

In that ordinance of God, which is that a lot of our problem

is most people are making

Commanded by God and what it means to be some of

the reasons that we don't

any would eventually do

what we do.

Now perhaps it would have been wise for me to even start this program at the very beginning.

For having you define what worship is because even.

Amongst.

Professedly Bible -believing Christians there seems to be a difference

of Understanding like one thing my friend.

Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega ministries.

One thing that really irritates him when he has been

invited to speak at a church or a conference.

Where after?

The singing portion has been completed the either the song leader

or the pastor or someone else will get up to the podium and Say now that our time of

worship has been completed.

Well.

It's time for us to hear a word from our speaker as if the

proclamation of the Word of God is not worship.

So perhaps you could tell us what you believe worship to be.

Okay, psalm

100 in a message I have in a chapter in this book

to get into the purpose

look at the commandments.

There are.

The psalm

is

entitled

Raven worships

the activity of the new life of believer in which Recognized in the fullness of the

Godhead as is revealed in the first he seeks by the power

of the Holy Spirit to render the living God glory honor and submission.

But at the end of quote is the highest expression James Vanderman described.

Other than the manner and the way which centers associated together in a church are permitted and

their collective capacity to hold intercourse with God Maintained in a right and befitting way their

fellowship with him.

The Bible teaches that we come into God's presence.

Reveals that

he

wants

this

thing and in fact singing is a significantly minor part.

The reading of scripture publicly not the call told him

until I come give attention to the public reading of the word and the church has historically understood that that.

Reading a scripture.

And

going

back to

the

regulative principle which many but not all but many.

Reformed Christians incorporate into their Life as a church

and their worship.

And you can correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding of the regulative principle

Silence in the New Testament is viewed as a prohibition rather than a license

for a Liberty and freedom in the way we worship.

We are in other words those that Believe in the regulative principle as opposed to the normative

principle.

We would not want to include anything That is not

specifically mentioned by command or example in the New Testament as

a Means of worship.

Now when I when I emphasize the New Testament Obviously the New Testament includes some of

those Old Testament Actions such as such

as the singing of Psalms.

We then

are

defeated by Christ

to the woman.

In Samaria,

so the

things that we

find in the

New Testament are simply the things

and they've

been fulfilled.

The weekly Sabbath was for a holy convocation and that means corporate.

They didn't go to that.

So we know but they were meeting houses and all the cities when

the psalmist laments the destruction.

Let's say God

didn't start during the exile it it maybe got that name.

But the meeting houses were obviously in use all over.

So this whole idea of corporate worship that was the primary reason for Leviticus 23

for the Sabbath and that Continues that up until today.

We have to go to our first break right now.

If anybody has a question for Dr. Joseph Piper, please send it to Chris Arnson at

gmail .com.

Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

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Dr. Joseph Piper President emeritus and professor of systematic and applied theology

at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary.

Every Christian who's serious about the deformed faith and the Westminster standards should have and use

the eight volume commentary on the theology and ethics of the Westminster larger catechism titled

Authentic Christianity by dr. Joseph more craft.

It is much more than an exposition of the larger catechism.

It is a thoroughly researched work.

Utilizes biblical exegesis as well as historical and systematic theology.

Dr. Moore craft is pastor of Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia.

And I urge everyone looking for a biblically faithful church in that area to visit that fine

congregation.

For details on the eight volume commentary go to.

Westminster commentary calm.

Westminster commentary calm.

For details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia visit.

Heritage Presbyterian Church dot -com.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen.

Our guest today is dr. Joseph a Piper and he is president emeritus at

Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Taylor, South Carolina.

The first hour of the program we are addressing Addressing posture and worship.

If you have a question, please send it to Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris a are n ze n at gmail .com.

Give us your first name at least city and state and country of residence.

We have Ted in Moundville, Alabama.

I am very pleased that you are addressing this important topic today.

I recall listening to a podcast episode of Reformed forum with Camden Busey

and our mutual friend. Dr Jeff Waddington in which the two of them had a brief discussion about body

posture when offering the benediction at the end of the service.

Camden had mentioned in passing that when he was a seminarian conducting a worship service.

He would not extend his hands in the Orin's O -r -a -n -s

posture and that he was committing here that he was committed to waiting until he was

ordained.

Before he would assume this posture while offering the benediction.

I had never heard of this distinction before and I was wondering what the biblical rationale behind it might be.

I've also noticed that in some congregations including decidedly non charismatic Congregations

that some congregants will assume the Orin's posture while receiving the benediction.

In your view, is there something that these congregants should not do?

Speaking in church office in

numbers six.

That only the man who has been or is the one who then

comes Mount God's

giving the benediction.

So on that so I instruct our

guys who go that if there is no

path the Congregation

as I said, those should not have their hands up and look into.

That again goes back to number six and the outstretched Hand

palm down.

Is that is the biblical symbol then.

That God's the one bestowing the blessing.

So the congregation as I said earlier If they want to exercise the posture and do that together,

they extend their hands waist high.

Palm up as the act of receiving.

Well, thank you Ted, let's move on to kneeling.

As.

I said earlier I was raised Roman Catholic and there's far more kneeling going on in a public

act of worship in a Roman Catholic Church than I've ever seen in evangelical Protestantism,

especially reformed circles.

In evangelical circles that are Arminian and have the practice of the altar call You will typically

only see kneeling when people go forward and they kneel at a railing in front of the

the pulpit and They will receive a blessing as they recite the sinner's prayer or

something.

But I have been told that one of the reasons reformed people typically don't have kneeling

or kneelers in the pews as Roman Catholic churches do is Because they

want to distance themselves from an act of idolatry that is actually taking place in a Roman

Catholic Church.

And that many people might not know this but the primary reason why a Roman Catholic when

entering into a church building Crosses him or herself and genuflects

Which is like a halfway kneel.

Or kneels in a pew with a kneeler that flips up and down Is because they

are actually worshiping Jesus Christ in his physical presence, which they believe

is present in the Eucharist.

They believe that a consecrated host is Jesus Christ soul body and divinity and

those hosts in the sub orium or monstrance they believe that's Jesus so

they are kneeling and reformed folk view that as an act of idolatry, but do you think that

a proper View of kneeling or kneeling in a proper way

when viewed and acted upon Biblically where you're only worshiping Our Lord God

Savior and King and not bread and wine.

Do you think kneeling would be a positive addition to a reformed worship service or not?

The Goes back far long

before there was ever of the host

is involved in Romanism.

In fact Calvin and the reformers All used kneeling.

Let me just point out that in the Bible.

There are three postures.

For prayer and sitting is not one of them.

Prostration which is good, but the two that are most appropriate for public

worship are standing and kneeling

exhortations toward both.

Standing comfortably of

the first day of the public in at least

18 by this.

Kneeling then is mentioned throughout scripture as a fit posture in prayer to Chronicles 6 Ezra

9 Daniel 6 Luke 22 Acts 20 Ephesians 3.

Isaac watch wrote.

Kneeling is the most frequent posture used in this worship in nature.

Seems to indicate and lead us in a humility

of supplication for mercy and of adoration.

Dependence upon him before it's been practiced

and even with a lot of scriptures never shines.

It might be done conveniently would be certainly most agreeable posture for the worship of God and publicist

and advocated.

They

hear reverence, which is how

their needs

should be reformed, which is a matter repugnant.

But

there should be advised this

on time of prayer

unless anyone so

lost when

evangelicalism and by

the way, dr.

Piper if you could make sure that whenever you're speaking you're speaking close to whatever mouthpiece you're using because sometimes.

I'm sorry.

Sometimes you fade off.

We started

Enlightenment.

Now you talked about standing first.

See that's another time as

well as prayer and reading a scripture that I think people would React

again.

There's nothing at all wrong about that and people can sing as long as they know how to sing.

Stand up stood up straight.

They can sing but it's locked and and many a

vocal posture of prayer.

One instead before the Lord, but obviously he didn't have

chairs.

That was probably sitting back on the tauntious I was about

playing but you never found sitting as an appropriate posture in prayer.

Now Calvin points out with

these things of form

that we're not sitting if we

don't do this.

So you are advocating that?

Reformed churches and basically all Bible believing churches Incorporate Kneelers

those flipping up and down Devices at the bottom of a pew.

You are advocating that we begin to use these Just as as Roman

Catholics have been doing for centuries, but for a very different reason.

You're saying this would be right.

Because the only time I can recall seeing anyone kneel in a reformed worship service and maybe

miss.

Remembering.

But the only time I can recall seeing it was when a person is being ordained to an

office and the elders lay their hands upon that man.

The man is very often if not most often kneeling while the surround while being surrounded by

elders Who have their eyes laid upon.

I don't recall ever seeing somebody kneeling.

Probably not.

So I have often wondered about that myself about including the

the attachment of Kneelers and pews and reformed church.

If you don't have that money, you can get the Christian ones that simply push up under the seat in front of you.

Hmm.

That's fascinating.

Well, uh when we come back from the midway break, I'm gonna allow you to summarize What you most want

etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners regarding posture in worship.

And then we'll continue on with our second topic of the day Which has to do with who should

and who should not lead public worship but we have to go to our midway break right now folks and please be

patient with us because it is as Always every day the longer break in the middle of the show because

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James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here if you've watched my dividing line webcast often enough.

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Good to be back.

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into our second hour? Is going to be on the subject who should and who should

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So I wanted you to summarize Dr. Piper before we move on to our second subject.

I wanted you to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners about posture in worship.

Thank You Chris.

As.

I've told you in the past, although I do hold the majority text.

I prefer the NASB Amen, and I thank you so much for being a part of those

advertisements for the

NASB.

Yeah in our Worship, even in many of our best and yet

because we shipping God as people need to do so with the

whole person.

And all the postures are revealed in Scripture.

As I've said we're not sinning if we don't use one or are some of them.

Calvin has a great discussion of that the Institute's I think it's.

Think it's before chapter 10.

But anyway, where he says when we have these forms that we're not sinning if we don't use them.

But their wives are given to us by God.

So we've talked about

postures should

be primarily Standing or kneeling.

And then what we didn't get to talk about was the voice and Again in Scripture the

corporate.

Amen without an individual here and there calling it Amen, but it was a corporate response

to advocated by our fathers

and then the corporate amen a little more shout to it after our singing

it's much better than the Sun a bed and I think that fulfills the shouting of Of the Psalms that

make some of us a little uncomfortable.

But that amen shouted out after we sing is also very useful

great.

And now we are moving on to Probably a much more controversial area that

has Divided Christians for quite a long time, especially in the more

modern era.

In fact, it is split congregations and it can Get ugly when

Christians have disputes over this.

And this is the area of who should and who should not lead Public worship.

And perhaps you could even clarify or define what you actually mean by leading

Public worship.

Because to give you an example There is a difference of opinion even

amongst very conservative even sometimes reformed

congregations.

Who may allow a woman to lead in singing.

They may allow a woman to make announcements and so on.

Because they don't view that as a position of leadership in the church, they just acknowledge that this

woman may be more gifted in the in the art of music Than

anyone else that they have and they have her leading the singing and so on.

So there would be a difference of opinion what leading actually means there.

Because even in some churches that would never have a woman as an elder or deacon.

They may sometimes allow a woman to ascend into the pulpit and lead the the music.

But if you could tell us about

what

you mean

in character

one in the various

I have in mind all the Elements of worship

then we would talk of reading of

Scripture.

In my opinion.

Announcements should not be made within the worship service anyway, because that's not something that's fitting

when we've drawn into the presence of God.

So I think it should be made before or after.

The worship begins with respect to leading singing.

Again it's my opinion that that's primarily the pastors responsibility to lead the singing

of.

Of the congregation there's

lots of women have lots of gifts and even other things that we are talking about.

I've talked to a number of musicians.

There's nobody who is innately tone -deaf.

Anybody can learn to carry a tune.

I encourage my students to be sure they develop their ability To do that or one of who

I think May lead in the singing and

even then I see no need for But anything but announcing the hymn

or psalm.

We don't need Arm -waving or stuff like that accompanist

who

keep us

that would

be either the

man

that the church is Testing and preparing.

We have an anonymous listener who has a question about that.

How do you respond to someone who?

Says in response to what you are saying that Ministers should be

the sole individuals leading any kind of act of worship that you are violating the

whole concept of the priesthood of believers and are driving too

far of a wedge between an ordained so -called clergy and

Faithful brothers and sisters in Christ who are gathered in the pews.

To worship.

God has given certain responsibilities namely.

To lead worship to read scripture and to preach and I have a very high view of you.

Oh really the leading in prayer

priesthood of believers Need to understand has nothing to do

as appointed in the church.

I mean, he's the one that says Example in 1st

Timothy men just enough holy hands with

we don't have the the kingship.

There's mean simply that because of our justification and union with Christ

Individually as well as corporately because of the priesthood of believers has nothing to do

with.

So basically you are saying.

That.

That ministers should be or as you were also hinting at.

Those that are in training to become ministers should be the only ones.

At a pulpit.

I know and

some of the

Calvinist

I think right,

right?

Yeah, I mean, in fact where I am a member Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania, which you may

Fondly remember as the place where Walt Chantry was the pastor for 40 years.

The church.

Well and one of my graduates was a pastor there now, oh, yes, that's right.

John Miller.

Yeah, we we are one of the rare reformed Baptists that I'm familiar with reform Baptist churches that that

does at least by title distinguished between pastors and elders.

Most reformed Baptist churches that I have been Involved in and where I've been a member have

equated to the two offices even by title.

They will call every elder a pastor.

This is a grace Baptist.

It's an exception.

We only have the full -time preaching and teaching elders Who are also supported

financially full -time that they call them the pastors.

The rest of them are elders.

But you what you're saying.

We have that distinction in first, Tennessee.

Five.

Well in regard to only elders or those in training to be elders.

Of.

Leading anything that is being conducted in the worship service that would obviously preclude women

from doing anything in the public fashion including the reading of Scripture or anything like that.

And We do have a question

about the Great Commission from CJ and Lindenhurst,

Long Island, New York.

Is the Great Commission given to every Christian or just to those in

leadership in local congregations.

Because of the fact that the Great Commission includes baptizing and I know that most

reformed churches will only Permit an elder to baptize someone.

It seems to me that the Great Commission is given to all of us.

And if a man in good standing Wishes to baptize his child or a

friend in the public worship service.

I see no sin in that

to the Apostles.

It's given to the church between

this responsibility is given to the church and our

gifts and opportunities To share At best our

testimony at least our testimony and those that will have the gifts to make more

coordinated presentations of the gospel the sacraments

of God addressed to the senses.

Because of that the church has recognized throughout the centuries that It's

part of the preaching so in in first

Corinthians

4 of God and a steward of the mysteries of the gospel

now the primary Meaning of mysteries of the gospel are the great gospel mysteries that Paul

will define unfolding fully now that which was more

revealed in the Old Testament, but because Part of the mystery of the gospel is our

union with Christ, one of the best

say that of the

ministry of the gospel Mysteries are one of

the

terms that

have been used

the visible

benediction.

We're a non

-ordained man.

Well, how about.

Preaching like I'll give you an example one of the things that Grace

Baptist Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

Does.

Is we will only have an elder or a pastor preach from the pulpit or

an elder or a pastor from a visiting Represents

a different church who's visiting as a guest speaker.

But that is in the public corporate worship of our own congregation.

They will Send out people to different areas that have special

Ministries outside the four walls of our church to preach.

I've even preached a number of times at a men's mission.

So, is that something that would be different from somebody actually.

Leading in the ordinances where you're having somebody go out and evangelize or preach and teach.

That is not a model.

I'm not ordained by the way, and so therefore.

You find that an acceptable practice where men are chosen to do this

the Bible defines preaching

communication and that's on a form of Evangelization in

the Bible as the authoritative public Proclamation of the Word

of God by a man that Christ has said.

So no, I would not call that preaching.

It can be Exhorting.

It can be different forms of evangelism.

But I think that anytime we're talking about preaching as I understand the Bible has defined preaching

then that is to be done by.

The man has been.

But even though you would use a different term. It may appear identical To what the pastor is doing

from the pulpit.

I mean, I'm opening up the word maybe but it doesn't have the same promises attached to it.

I say the same authority.

I see.

Let's see we have BB in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania.

Who wants to know how do you respond to anyone who would say then we?

Put things under a microscope like you two are doing in this program.

We are really taking any heartfelt passionate joy and

exuberant excitement out of what we are to do in worship by making it too much of

a meticulous Attachment to a blueprint.

I'm not talking about Totally ignoring the regulative principle of worship,

and I'm not accusing either of you for Doing what I am saying.

Someone might view this as but I was just wondering how you would respond to people who make that accusation.

Connery.

Because being moved in the way contrary to what God had revealed, right?

It seemed like the instinct of the in the instinct of a person wanting to do the

right thing and.

Then they dab in a bahu

Develops the students on that take on

is a holy God and if we want to

Confuse his demands.

Well, we will do that in that because he is a holy God.

He has Told us precisely how we are to approach and he

delights when we approach and remember even in Hebrews 12 after

between the Old Covenant and And the New Covenant in chapter 12.

The end of that chapter he deals with coming to worship God and he concludes that that's remembering that our God is a

consuming power and our problem today is

Not entering

into the throne room of heaven or the throne of God.

Become much more mindful of it.

It in no way should hinder joy.

Calvin deals with this in Psalm 2 for

with trembling two elements must always be together.

And we have to go to our final break.

Which is going to be a lot more brief than the other breaks.

If you do have a question for dr Piper, please send it in immediately because we're rapidly running out of time.

Chris Ornson at gmail .com.

Chris Ornson at gmail .com.

First name city and state and country of residence.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back after these messages.

When iron sharpens iron radio first launched in 2005 the publishers of the New American

Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors.

It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the iron sharpens iron radio audience have been

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James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here excited to announce that my longtime friend Chris Arnson of iron sharpens iron radio

and I Are heading to Washington DC for the g3 ministries regional conference on the theme

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The conference will be held Thursday September 15th through Saturday September 17th.

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Stop by the iron sharpens iron radio exhibitor booth and say hi to Chris Arnson while you're there.

I'm dr.

Joseph Piper.

President emeritus and professor of systematic and applied theology at Greenville Presbyterian

theological seminary.

Every Christian who's serious about the deformed faith and the Westminster standards should have and use

the eight volume commentary on the theology and ethics of the Westminster larger catechism titled

Authentic Christianity by dr. Joseph more craft.

It is much more than an exposition of the larger catechism.

It is a thoroughly researched work utilizes biblical exegesis as well as historical and

systematic Theology.

Dr. Moore craft is pastor of Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia.

And I urge everyone looking for a biblically faithful church in that area to visit that fine congregation.

For details on the eight volume commentary go to Westminster commentary calm.

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For details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia visit Heritage Presbyterian

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Please tell dr. Moore craft and the Saints at Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia That dr. Joseph

Piper of Greenville Presbyterian theological seminary sent you.

How do we know we picked the right Bible?

Why do we go to church on Sunday?

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Host of iron sharpens iron radio.

I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.

The church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church

in Flemington, New Jersey pastored by Alan Dunn.

Grace Covenant Baptist Church believes it's God's prerogative to determine how he shall be worshiped and how he

shall be represented in the world.

They believe churches need to turn to the Bible to discover what to include in worship and how to worship

God in spirit and truth.

Grace Covenant Baptist Church endeavors to maintain a God -centered focus.

Reading preaching and hearing the Word of God singing psalms hymns and spiritual songs.

Baptism and communion are the scriptural elements of their corporate worship performed with faith joy

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Discover more about Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey at GC

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Tell Pastor Dunn that you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church on iron sharpens iron radio.

If you love iron sharpens iron radio One of the best ways you can help keep the show on the air is

by supporting our advertisers.

One such faithful advertiser who really believes in what Chris Arnton is doing is

Daniel P Buttafuoco serious injury lawyer and Christian apologist.

Dan is the president and founder of the historical Bible Society.

Their mission to foster belief in the credibility of scripture as the written Word of God.

They go to various churches schools and institutions To publicly display a rare

collection of biblical texts along with a fascinating presentation by mr. Butterfuoco.

Demonstrating the reliability of scripture to advance the cause of the gospel.

They created a beautiful perfect facsimile of the genealogy of Jesus Christ from the

original engravings contained in a first edition 1611 King James Bible.

This 17th century hand engraved chart shows the family tree of Jesus Christ

going back to Adam and Eve.

This book is complete with gorgeous full -size illustrations of Noah's Ark and the Tower of

Babel and an Explanation of why the genealogy of Jesus is so important for his claims

to the throne of the universe.

Originals of this work are in museums and nobody's ever made it accessible to the public

in a large book form before.

You can have your own copy of this 44 page genealogy book for a donation of $35

or more.

Visit historical Bible Society dot org that's historical Bible

Society Dot org.

Thanks for helping to keep iron sharpens iron radio on the air.

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Welcome back Dr. Joseph Piper.

We do have a question from RJ in Westchester, New York.

RJ says I have seen reformed churches celebrate the Lord's Supper with two

different postures and please forgive me for asking a posture question in the second hour,

but sometimes.

The.

Individuals in the congregation will be sitting in their pews when they receive the elements of the table and

partake of them and other churches.

I have seen the members of the congregation go forward if they are Qualified to

receive the table and they receive the elements from the elders.

Right in front of the pulpit, which is your preference and Are these different

postures based on the Word of God?

I assume you don't agree with the Roman Catholic practice of kneeling because we do not believe.

That the bread and wine are truly his body and blood a

good question.

The Reformation.

There were three postures and receiving the Lord's Supper As wingly distributed in

the people come forward.

And in the Dutch and later in the Scottish tradition They sat at a table together

Westminster proponents of the different views and their

compromised language was that in the Distributing of the elements people should be at or around the table.

And so this was allowing for all three.

There's not one that is more biblical Than the other and there are advantages to each

one.

The table is nice and that we can express greater unity there

of Coming forward is nice

And that it fulfills other aspects of What is

happening symbolically in the Lord's table as is sitting in the pew.

I.

Practice right now.

At Antioch the church that pastor Ralph and I are starting.

And by the way, just another for your ad.

The NSB is our pulpit and pew Bible at Antioch.

Oh great.

Well, the publishers will be thrilled to hear that we

the coming forward and having a Common cup, that's the advantage

of coming forward.

It's also the advantage of being at the table.

That's the advantage you lose in the distribution down the pews.

The common cup Again is a very ancient part

of the reason that us was put to death.

In fact, I had the privilege of worshiping in a church in Arabia

Ten years after the Velvet Revolution.

Number of

positions.

A sterling cup with a linen napkin and wine, which I believe

will be real is.

No germs survive.

Well, there's somebody who's really rebelling against the kovat hysteria.

That's right.

So there's no one way and as each has its

Advantages and you can say disadvantages in terms of

one advantage that I see in the.

Congregants going forward is That it prevents the

temptation of An unbeliever or somebody who's under church discipline in

another church or whoever that person may be Who is not qualified to receive the elements?

That when you're sitting down and you're passing the tray or tray is plural

when you're passing it to somebody who is in that category of not being a Proper candidate to receive

the elements.

It may be a temptation just because they don't want to embarrass themselves and.

That's why why elders so nobody

is that.

Nobody is actually passing the plates in the pews.

Pass it down each aisle, but they know who's taking.

I see.

Well, if I guess a congregation is large enough that may be difficult for even a an elder to

to watch all right.

The big disadvantage of the table, which has many advantages is that It's

congregation is many.

They're going to have what they call more than one city.

So you've been you lose the whole idea of the unity this

expressed that a small congregation have.

But the other disadvantage is Is Lack of frequency the

again in the Westminster Directory of worship

according to the

praise God last few last few years and because of the grace that is

connected that there's advantages and disadvantages.

And yes, that seems

to be a.

Growing trend amongst reformed churches to have a weekly observance of the Lord's Supper and I'm 100 in

favor of that.

Yes.

Let's see here.

We have another anonymous listener Who says speaking of leadership in the

church one thing that I have become increasingly uncomfortable with is When a

praise band will have its lead singer begin to

pontificate from the stage and act as if this is an ordained leader of the church

when in reality He's just a talented musician in Parentheses or her and I

do not think that this is conducive to congregational worship.

It seems more like entertainment to me.

What is your guests thought on this?

Yes, it is anonymous 100

then he

praise band is in fact a detraction from the corporate nature of worship and

Singing and that temptation is often there same thing.

I've seen churches where just the pianist takes opportunity

To give some testimony or exhortation before

a hymn or a song.

I think the congregations because I've

heard in the past had choirs.

It's not an issue.

But it's off again to follow the music,

you know, you can you can pray vicariously

By its nature, but you can't sing vicariously.

And you don't need to be sung at or on behalf of but that's pretty radical I know

well before I take any.

More listener questions.

I'd like you to have several minutes of uninterrupted time to really summarize what you most want

etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners.

Regarding who should and who should not lead worship

issue in my denomination the Presbyterian Church in America and it is a

Thing that did by not

wanting to part a

div in our

gala leading worship and so from the call

to worship through the benediction

that only ordained men and men being prepared

for the ministry should.

Well, we do have I'm

sorry keep going first Timothy

two is because after he Addresses one verse the men leading worship

qualifications thrown into that.

So he says I want men in every place and without wrath and

dissension.

There are three spiritual and that is there to be holy men and they're to

do not to be men.

They're known for wrath and dissension.

These all tie into the qualifications of the elders.

He gives in the very next chapter second all acts of worship.

Barricaded Perkins said

that the congregation on behalf of God and to leave the congregation is speaking to God.

Our prayers are to be Biblical he must be a man who

has who has gifts.

He takes one day says a lot in that one verse and and I apply what I

think are genuine inferences.

I think he did this

much more trash for anybody.

But an ordained person unless he deals with the

other and he goes into

authority.

He's talking here

not as it

was her

serves of the God.

But in the home and in the church in particular Many says

that she's not to have authority or teaching

position in the church.

I think even teaching men was in the church

and they're basically her domestic roles and

so other women teaching children and piety.

The side B on

the Sexuality and then was people are

not willing to say that there are created Analogical differences between men and women by

that I mean by the very nature.

Now.

Very briefly because we were almost at a time a lot of the arguments or the debates

between brethren over complementarianism and egalitarianism.

Stem from a disagreement over Priscilla's role in her household.

Was she not along with her husband?

Instructing new believers.

That's why I used which is

all we ever had.

There was yes.

We sit here in my house.

I learned from my wife.

It's just as she learns from me.

We have guests we have robust conversations and.

A.

Woman has a very important role there, but that's an informal role.

It's not a formal role in the life of the congregation.

Well before I give the website again for Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary, do you have any contact

information for the new? Church plant that you are currently involved.

Yes, it would be Church in America this website

That you can go to and learn about the church.

I think all our messages are accessible there as well and.

The actual website is Antioch Presbyterian Church in America, or is that what you would Google to find that.

What I Google to find it.

Okay, and.

That is located specifically where?

Taylor's, South Carolina, or it's in the country in Spartanburg County.

It's about it's right in between Greer and.

Okay great highway 101.

Great and.

As far as the Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary remember folks it is gpts

.edu G for Greenville P for Presbyterian T for theological s for

seminary edu.

Thank you so much Dr. Piper as we both agreed at the beginning of the program We must not late wait so long

before you return as a guest.

I want to thank you so much for being a superb guest.

I want to thank everybody for listening and I hope you all always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a Far

greater Savior than you are a sinner.

Amen.