Cultish: Growing Up in a Polygamist Cult, Pt. 2

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Is Protestantism Heresy? Pt. 3 - The Pope | Collision w/ Jeff Durbin

00:00

All right, welcome back ladies and gentlemen to cultish entering the kingdom of the cults. My name is jeremiah roberts

00:05

I'm one of the co -hosts here. I am joined once again by andrew the super sleuth of the show

00:11

Uh over there in herriman utah. It's good to have you back, man Thank you. Yeah, i'm still holding on to this cliffhanger here for the last like six or seven minutes

00:19

So i'm still waiting six or seven minutes for you. It's been uh, six or seven days So, uh, that's how it is right now a day is a thousand years to all our listeners or whatever

00:29

Podcast time. Yeah, totally totally cheesy christian pun. Anyways, we're back with neil. You're right. It's good to have you back

00:35

How are you? I'm great. Thanks. Same as seven minutes ago. I hope I remember what cliffhanger I gave though. Yes No, well

00:42

I uh, so if you this is a part two of our conversation and we'll be talking really about spiritual abuse the first part

00:48

We were really kind of talking about your upbringing and how that affected you and uh, Really towards the end and I appreciate everything that you shared so much and thank you for doing that um

00:57

You you talked towards the end. It was really Not your dad's death. I mean that was that started kind of the process but it's really your mother's death and seeing her

01:06

Suffer at the end of her life because of the fact that your group did not believe in receiving medical care and You know, we talked actually in the break that it pushed you

01:18

To the point where you were considering taking your life And I think and I appreciate your vulnerability and transparency with sharing that and I think

01:26

That this is a real moment where you have to call a spade a spade and why ministry is like you're just so important because like the mental health epidemic is so huge in the world of the cults and we'll unravel that but the add the realistic reality of people committing suicide

01:47

Dealing with suicide is a huge thing Just as a whole in our culture as a whole

01:52

But specifically within ex -cultists for sure um And that's why

01:58

I think you know as you share that, you know We would this something we definitely need to have compassion for with people who have stories similar to yours.

02:05

So jumping back in To the snare which people have been waiting for a week. Here you are. Your mother passes away

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You're bought you're you're at the brink bring us into that so You know just when people hear oh, so you were 25 and both of your parents had passed already and they're like gosh

02:23

That's so hard. It's like you have no idea because In these kinds of situations deaths can hold a different connotation.

02:30

Now, maybe it's not the same as in my group But oftentimes in cults death is seen as something else.

02:36

It's not just this person is passed on There's maybe some spiritual, you know component attached to that whatever it may look like Now with me

02:43

I had been taught that they could not and would not die and well now both of them have And my mom was such a strong believer that my dad was going to return

02:52

That literally for the three and a half years in between their two deaths every day on the calendar She she counted on our family calendar.

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It was up to you know Oh, we're at 364 days since he passed away. We're at this many days. And so Um, she had even started kind of exercising and trying to lose weight

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So when he came back when he was younger, she would look better And like I mean all these kinds of things how it affects someone's psyche and how they're going to live their lives

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And so when she had then passed away as well I couldn't Hold on to my worldview anymore, and I I knew that but I had no idea what to do with it so I just disconnected from it dissociated and then moved into distraction as my primary coping mechanism of i'm just going to be really busy and i'm gonna

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I started drinking too much and had these you know coping mechanisms of how what do I do with this?

03:39

I didn't know and Ultimately what I ended up doing was my mom had passed away in september

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I was in a one -year advanced standing master's program, which is you know, that's intense. So I finished that up in may

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I graduated and After that, I was like, I just have to get out of here

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And I didn't know where to go, but I just needed a change of scenery And I I really

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I tell this to people Some may call it running away. Sometimes you need a change of scenery.

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It's actually very healing And so I don't think that's running away. Sometimes it's actually creating space for you to deal with what you need to deal with Yeah, so that's ultimately what happened.

04:18

I had relocated to austin. Um thought okay I'm gonna go here and I knew that I hadn't like heard from god on where to go or what to do

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But I actually remember telling god you're taking too long and I can't wait. I have to get out of here So I just left ultimately

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I got redirected to colorado denver metro area Through going to visit a friend one person

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I knew there And I was chatting with some woman in a park and she offered me a part -time job and a room to rent

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So I was like, okay like god, maybe this is you maybe it's not i'm not sure but this is what i'm going to do So I went back to austin packed up and left again

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And When I was in colorado, I was so Isolated so all of my coping mechanisms of distraction whatever form that took on Wasn't really available to me so well anymore because I didn't know anybody other than this this one person

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So i'm i'm on my own. I'm kind of work. I'm working remotely pretty much. I'm only working part -time

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And I I have a lot of time and I had this gosh, it's such an intense period of my life where I was violently bulimic like very very unkind to my body

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And still drinking to self -medicate and kind of numb out Dissociating all the time.

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So definitely mental health concerns. I'm really struggling with anxiety and depression. So all of this is going on and Simultaneously, this is the best way

05:38

I can explain it simultaneously I had this piece that didn't make sense Where it's like i'm feeling all these emotions that i've been trying to get rid of I'm feeling them and I knew if I will allow myself to feel what

05:53

I need to feel and I allow myself to Allow this process whatever it is exactly

05:58

I'm, not gonna stay here And I knew god was telling me that I felt like it was an invitation from him of if you will take my hand

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And you will walk this journey with me and it's gonna be hard, but if you will do that You will not remain here i'm going to bring you somewhere else and this is going to be temporary you will not end here

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And so i'm I remember at times I was literally sitting in my room staring at the wall for four or five hours

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I wouldn't do anything. I'm just talking to god and waiting for the anxiety to calm down enough so I could go to the grocery store

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And I just I started to let it out I did also seek professional support I mean,

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I had a master's in social work I was, you know heading towards licensure to be able to be a therapist myself. And so I very much believed in seeking support

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But I didn't ever feel like I could really share all of my story Or if I shared bits and pieces people just didn't know what to do with that Yeah, I mean, what what do you do with that kind of complicated group grief complicated grief is a thing

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But but not that kind You know, and so it was really tough to find people who were able to support me within my context.

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I couldn't find it but Ultimately for me and my story That ended up being okay because god was so present

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That I didn't I didn't need it Like I think

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I would have just classically thinking about it, you know as a psychotherapist be like wow people really need that support

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God came through for me just the same and I felt So loved

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So cared for In my Devastating brokenness.

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I felt seen like really seen, you know Like wow, like he sees all of it and he knows all that i've done

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And yet I feel His love so strongly like how can that be?

07:57

This is who he really is. Yeah, you know, this is really what he's like Like what what why would

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I not why would I not want more of him? Yeah, and so that Started this process of I I want to find god

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I I mean I found him but like I want to know you more I want to know more like I know the feeling of your presence and your love for me

08:19

But I don't I don't actually know who you are like intellectually. I have no idea Hey, what's up, everyone?

08:25

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09:06

And check out all the awesome merch back to the show Wow, so do you think like at this point of your life?

09:13

There was almost a point, you know, your mother Passes away. Both of your parents are gone. You go to colorado.

09:18

You're in this total isolation Is there a point to where it's almost like you didn't even know who you were anymore? All of these pieces are broken.

09:25

They're on the floor You're anxious, you know, you're you're worrisome depressed, uh in a sense and even like you said sometimes suicidal, uh

09:33

Was it like god? he met you where you were at and like the the peace or the love that you felt was almost the

09:39

Full assurance that there's something out there. There's God who knows you better than you know yourself

09:45

And it's like almost like the journey of healing can start not through catharsis through recognizing your own pain but um almost like God is bringing you somewhere, right?

09:56

Because we know true catharsis is found in the pain and suffering of jesus christ on the cross Was it like almost like the start of finding and healing your true identity in christ was like beginning almost in that moment

10:08

Yes Yes, it was an incredible Blessed contradiction to all

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I had been taught because So much of what I was doing Could have been condemned

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It was wrong and i've looked back and i've repented for those things i'm like lord, you know the circumstances

10:27

You know what? I was going through you know how lost and broken I was but still we're told not to send in our anger And I didn't want to send in my grief

10:34

Yeah, and so please forgive me for that and I know he forgave me for that Sometimes the hardest part is receiving his forgiveness

10:39

Yeah, because it's so kind and it just we're like gosh, we're not used to that kind of forgiveness So it's hard to actually receive it but I I was so thrown by You're not condemning me right now,

10:51

I don't feel Unkindly judged by you right now. I feel held

10:58

Despite these actions that i'm taking and that made me want to cease doing them

11:04

Yeah, because also I didn't need those forms of coping anymore because I was so well loved

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But I was also isolated and that's not easy. I don't recommend isolation Again, this is just what it looked like for me and how god met me in it because of the setup

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I definitely don't recommend isolation. I think it is dangerous and it's it's harder for sure

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And I think what's what's good is that you know What you had in many what it was a supernatural experience with christ

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And you know, it's interesting too because there's a someone that I follow named angela. She hears this podcast

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I'm gonna shout to angela. She is a former astrologer and you actually she had a podcast where she was in Heavily into astrology giving out people's zodiac signs.

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You name it And all of a sudden there's a couple podcasts where she's starting to say she's i'm starting to get curious about jesus of nazareth

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Nazareth and so she's still describing Like who this jesus person is and like her being drawn to jesus, but she's still using new age terminology to describe him

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But then you go a couple episodes later and she's like no jesus is the only way to god

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Astrology is an abomination like don't do it. Jesus is the only way and she's just totally on fire for god

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And so you see this like night and day and so with your experience what you're talking about This is not and I you know a cult leader will have you know, an isolated private revelation

12:31

Now god met you where you were all alone But you like your private experience though confirmed a public revelation specifically,

12:39

I thought I thought of this verse in act 17 where it says, um That he said, uh, he and he meant when paul's talking to marcel

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He said and he made from one man Every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth having a determined their allotted periods and the boundaries of their

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Dwelling place that they should seek seek god And perhaps feel their way towards him

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And find him Yet he is actually not far from each one of us and so like when

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I ever I hear someone's story like yourself, it's like I see that scripture like coming to light

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Um in in many many particular ways so like in that so you understand it's got to be an amazing experience like having

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What you grew up in what you're indoctrinated with now to have like the true authentic gospel.

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That's so Antithetical to everything you you grew up in so like what happened from there

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Did you try and just like that kind of draw you to like to find a bible and start reading it? Did you try and find a church or what did that look like for you?

13:41

So this is going to be a strong argument for apologetics a strong apologetic for apologetics

13:48

The emotional part was going on. Yeah, which was great again because I had felt just wrath and fear

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So that was I needed that first to even Want to know more about who god really was so I needed that first god obviously knew that he blessed me with that and his kindness and Then I got involved in the new age

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So I had no good theology. I didn't really know what to do.

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The bible was scary The bible had been used to hurt me So I was named after the book of ruth my middle name's ruth

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I'm naomi ruth and my dad used to always say oh I should have named you ruth first because you remind me more of Of her and and so that was like the one story that felt safe to me

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So I just kept reading ruth over and over again Um, and that's what I was comfortable with so which is also telling

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I didn't know to go to the gospels So, I mean, I think that says a lot. I mean, that's really I mean

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That's where I tell people to go first like go go learn about jesus go know jesus And even as you're learning about other things and you're coming out of the cult keep going back to jesus because you need you need a

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Reminder regularly of who he is But I didn't have that and so I then started

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I mean i'm in these mountain towns in colorado Which are very you know, kind of hippie like and things like that and I started

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Looking at tarot cards and having reiki done on me and hearing about these past lives I had in all this kind of stuff and spiritually things started getting kind of dark and kind of funky and so During that process

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I then felt this pull To go to a church Now this was a really big deal because churches

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Like we met in homes actual church buildings were not of god. They were satanic

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So i'm literally standing outside of this church, which funny enough was actually within the property of an amusement park

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Um, and i'm standing outside of this church and you know, it was a non -denominational but good theological church it wasn't a problem but sitting outside of it and Genuinely praying like please do not smite me god when

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I walk in here like please know my heart I am genuinely just trying to find you Like so if this is wrong, like please don't punish me.

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Just redirect me. I just am trying to seek you And so I walk into this church for the first time

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So from there I I would attend Be so overwhelmed by the teaching

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I couldn't go back for a few weeks because like I was just it just took that much time to process it And then go back again take a few more weeks again

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And as i'm healing hearing all of this teaching i'm thinking this is correct and i'm checking it

16:21

I'm starting to open the bible because i'm kind of wondering like does is that what it actually says in there? So that was helpful. Like I started to get kind of intrigued

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And it's checking out So then well, what do I do with these two?

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Doctrines now so I was very torn about what to do with that So in my mind this church is doing so much good and they have so much right?

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It's just they don't know this like the rest of this stuff. So I still hadn't let go of that It was okay.

16:48

They just don't know the rest and I felt like The healing I was doing and the rebuilding

16:54

I was doing I felt like it was temporary and that it would collapse at some point Because the two couldn't re -reconcile together and I thought well i'm gonna have to let go of these new friends i'm making or these new whatever that looks like because Ultimately, they don't know the rest.

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And so this is this is built on sand and it's going to be temporary and i'm going to Lose it. Yeah, so that was uh, just a concern

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I had I was just afraid of that and you know, obviously that's not what happened because it's actually the the original doctrine that was built on sand and ultimately that that was quite a process that wasn't

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It wasn't um It's just automatic. Some people have this story of I just knew I was raised in a cult and then

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I did all that I was doing it and then I realized it was a cult It was sort of like I had really built up to it clicking.

17:43

Oh my goodness. That was a cold. Yeah Yeah, well, that's huge. I think anybody and this is just relevant real quickly where um

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Anybody who walks in who's an ex -cultist and they walk into a church They're walking in whether it's someone who's jehovah's witness or somebody from any sort of background

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There's going to be layers where it's like, okay, this is weird. This is going to take a little get this is different This is going to take some getting used to so, uh oscar dunlap who's been on our show before he actively goes to our church

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He's also deacon apologia He's an ex -hebrew israelite and you know Going into apologia for the first couple of times.

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It was weird for him I mean being in a whole cult that's based off of you know, ethnic superiority uh based on the color of the darkness of your skin and then going to a body like Apologias where it's very ethnically diverse and people are just you know

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Giving each other hugs and loving each other and then like and it's not like it's not like he

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Like still held on to that ideology He was full of the love of god, but still just it took a little like okay getting used to best case scenario um, you know, we there's other circumstances as well too where they're just There's layers in which people are going to filter a current and active healthy church experience like through their past so So that being said so you're in this process.

19:04

You're growing as a christian you get plugged into a healthy church and That became a catalyst at some point to get into what you do now

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Which is to minister to people who are coming out of cults and spiritually abusive environments

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Tell us how you got into that sure It was it was the last thing I ever thought

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I would do and I feel like a lot of people that step into ministry Probably say that. Yeah, but it was not looking to do this

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Yeah, it was not on my radar and in order to even do it I had to first tell my own story and I hadn't done that I mean

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I have baby pictures with people that didn't know the fullness of my story And so I felt that god was pulling me to start sharing to just start telling

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And I didn't have the vision for being emboldened yet. It was just like, okay I'm just gonna Go out there and and maybe start to write it or like publish a blog or like I don't really know what to do

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And it just took it one step at a time and before I released it I I had people I had to tell like I had friends I had to call

19:59

I had loved ones who are still in the group where I wanted to let them know Hey, i'm going to be doing this and I want you to know it just my love and care for you

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Um while i'm doing it, uh, this is not me Not caring about you or trying to sabotage anyone or anything like that and just being aware of ethical storytelling too trying to not incriminate everybody else and when

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I share just share what I have been through and not try to share what they've been through and different things like that, but that was certainly a process and I I have said in the past People will think being in the cult was the hardest maybe when they hear my story

20:33

It's actually the exit that was the hardest it was coming out of it was way harder than being in it And then going public with it and like whoo, that's a toss -up going public with it is is really really tough because again, those emotions of Fear related to secrecy that all comes back up So even though logically

20:53

I knew this is not reality. This is not the situation emotionally. I was in like a terrified state of i'm

21:01

Telling this publicly I was never even supposed to tell a friend And now i'm making a i'm paying to flight a crew in from chicago and going back to buffalo and you know

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Shooting this eight -minute testimonial video. We're gonna put on youtube. Yeah, you know, like that's that's a big deal and I knew too

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Which this part I was I was accepting of not that it's easy acceptance is not easy But I was accepting of i'm gonna lose more people through this

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And i'm gonna be seen as a judas because these are my own parents This is my own father and I knew that and it was heartbreaking.

21:33

Yeah, but I think this is the truth of matthew 10 35 Where yes following christ will bring division

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And no, it's not like what come some cults say of you know that you have to separate from everyone That's that's not what's being said here

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It's just by naturally being an authentic relationship with christ and following him People who are not doing the same that division will happen

21:56

Yeah, and it's difficult too I mean, I don't think anything hurts more than being misunderstood By the people you love and care for the most when that and it's completely out of your control, right?

22:05

You know because that's again. It's just this sociological demographic Um that you see just just the hold that is on to someone who's like having those doubts.

22:15

Um, There's a fact there's a series that just came out We're going to be doing an episode later on this summer, uh and under the banner of heaven

22:22

Which is a story about these, uh, mormon murders that took place in the early 1980s.

22:28

There's a moment Andrew, I just finished up watching at the show Uh, and so I won't give the full spoiler away anyone who hasn't watched the show but there's a moment where he's reading a red book written by Uh, if I said the book you probably would know the name of it but it's it's a book that's showing all the contradictions in mormonism you see him just like Shaking and not knowing what to do and then his wife comes up to him and basically you see just the you know, and she basically whatever says whatever she says to him and it just It's enough of a grip where he

23:00

I think he puts the book down because it's just such a sociological grip that is uh there within it and that's just difficult sometimes it's like the

23:08

The ability to stand up, you know in many ways. I think the count the cost aspect

23:14

Of is huge with ex -cultists because it truly stand out for what they believe in regards to the gospel

23:20

You know, you are going to experience that on a unique level. That's not a lot of people

23:26

Typically won't experience. Mm -hmm Yeah, I was gonna ask you. Oh Oh, yeah

23:32

Naomi like in in those most difficult moments where you're essentially picking up your cross and following christ those hardest moments of Coming out of the cult right and then making it public

23:42

Was the were these moments also parts of extreme healing right like that christ was supplying uh things to you in these moments because you are actually giving up what is most difficult for you to Honor the calling that god has given you was there any healing in those moments?

24:01

I think so and the way I think I would say it is I guess healing isn't the word that would have come to mind.

24:08

But yes, I do agree with you. So thank you for asking this I I see it as It's continued

24:18

Commitment to who I really am in christ. It's like this this continued change and Yes, this is me in christ and that identity which

24:29

I see as my just authentic genuine self and so There is healing of course in that.

24:36

Yes, but it's these it's these opportunities for me to to choose

24:44

Like lord, am I going to choose you? Despite the fear despite the losses the intense grief.

24:50

I mean My hospice experience comes into play with this probably more than anything else working in this area because the the grief is real

24:57

Um, just all kinds of losses from world view to people to just what do you what is the world?

25:03

What do you what do I wear? Like what can I even wear? I mean just it's all encompassed all encompassing so it's these continued opportunities to stop and be like Yeah, lord, like i'm gonna continue to choose who

25:15

I am in you versus what maybe feels safe otherwise and There's I There is a choice, of course, of course, we have a choice, right?

25:26

We have free will so we get to choose if we're gonna Take that take god up on that or not, right? I didn't have to go public.

25:32

I didn't have to do this but When when you experience god the way i've

25:41

Experienced god and he offers it to everyone. So i'm not special When you do that there's no isn't an option like it is but it's not it wasn't in my heart because I am so grateful

25:58

And so it's from i've had people ask me this and actually just came up in a conversation yesterday there are people who come out of these environments and they want to Go and do missionary work in some way be in ministry ministry in some way whatever that may look like because they are so They feel so guilty and so ashamed for what they came out of or for the part

26:19

Maybe they played in it if they were in some level of leadership or something like that I really issue a caution with doing it from that place because one

26:26

Making amends is different than trying to do good works to earn forgiveness. Like only christ

26:32

Yeah can and he has he's already done it but only christ can and has

26:37

Covered that for you. So it's your need to go to him and receive it. Like I said that receiving part's really tough Making amends is different.

26:44

We are called to make amends. So yes, let's do that But if I was doing this from a place of guilt and shame,

26:49

I would be doing it from a place of nothing Instead i'm doing it from a place of gratitude.

26:55

This is an outpouring of how great grateful I am To what christ has done for me.

27:01

Oh, yeah. Well even too like there's people who will say I remember my pastor uh, this is a church used to go to And he was talking to some guy who was just you know

27:10

Basically self -flogging himself in front of his office metaphor who's speaking fee was actually Someone was actually doing inside the office.

27:16

You want to grab it from him? Like don't do that It's a bad thing. But you know, he was saying I don't know if I could ever forgive myself and My pastor at the time that looked at him and says it's not yours to forgive and the guy was like And he paused and he kind of really thought through that and he was like, oh my goodness

27:34

Like i'm trying to put all this weight on myself You know, and I think that that's a huge thing and again there's an aspect where even there are times where I think people have a misunderstanding of the gospel and they understand they misunderstand the relationship between faith and works and somehow

27:51

Like that terminology difference is they're still No, they know that they're saved and that god loves them, but they still feel all of a sudden

27:57

It's like he loves me. He loves me not he loves me He loves me not and you know even like taking the lord's supper is something that You're coming there to sort of vicariously do a eucharist or something of that nature rather than really understanding remembering

28:10

You know, this is the person who actually bore your sins. And so a lot of times there's a lot of Theological again theological baggage that people bring to the table.

28:19

So anyway, so you're coming forward and you're Doing that you're you're getting ready to sort of tell your story.

28:24

You're kind of counting the cost you understand That On many levels you're going to be misunderstood

28:30

By people who are close to you, uh in your upbringing. So bring us back into that how did that What transpired there and how that how did that turn into that what you're doing now as far as the ministry that you do?

28:41

And you and your husband do actually. Mm -hmm. So sure I ended up launching that video and then I was like, okay

28:47

Am I done lord? Am I done here? May I be excused? And the answer was no

28:52

So so then I just I continue to just have more vision of kind of like one step at a time and then all of a

28:58

Sudden I had the next five steps and I couldn't keep up anymore. But It was it turned into okay. I'm gonna launch this organization and I was launching it based on my story and it was initially just kind of Sharing my story.

29:10

So I just named it after me huge huge problem. I realize that apologetics community. Please don't come after me

29:16

Yeah, but I it was like well, i'm just telling my story. I'm not really doing anything else So it makes sense kind of like an llc um, and then it transitioned from there and suddenly

29:25

I was like gosh, there's there's so much to be done here and people started responding and It just it's grown and we just um,

29:32

I had wanted to rebrand very quickly So now we're called be emboldened and that just went out. I think in february

29:37

We finalized it and we're focused now in two areas one being prevention because I strongly believe that If our young adults can have some

29:47

Some information on what the most common red flags are for groups such as this they're less apt to wind up in them

29:53

Now I totally understand the like counterfeit dollar, you know, like no the real thing you'll recognize what's fake

30:00

And that needs to be happening too, but these groups can be so good Like they're so sneaky and it's just so much to know that maybe by 18

30:07

It's like if you know like the top 10 to 15 red flags, that's probably also going to be okay. So The area of prevention which

30:13

I think you guys work in too, you know, like hey, what does this stuff look like guys? And so that's one piece of it.

30:19

And then the other side of it. Yes is is the healing aspect? So people come out of these situations and you know, this is cultish.

30:26

So we're talking more cult specific We look at uh religious harm in general so in in bible based

30:32

So whether the bible is used to back up the abuse or the trauma or whether it wasn't like the group uses the bible

30:38

So that's kind of I can't call it christianity because it's it's not but someone may maybe thought that they were christian so we we focus in those two areas and the healing aspect is

30:50

I mean, there's just There are so many layers to it I mean there's so many layers to this and We just launched our first support group that we're kind of doing as a pilot with with seven topics

31:01

That commonly come up and I mean right out of the gate We're looking at grief and loss and we're looking at triggers and we're looking at the science of trauma

31:07

Like what happens in your brain and in your body and like what what can we do with that? Because that's really helpful information.

31:12

We're looking at how to set boundaries Yeah, not just boundaries and yes I'll do this or no, I won't but also in our communication because a lot of us have been taught you tell everyone everything

31:22

And you confess to everyone everything and it's like, okay that can not necessarily be healthy. So let's talk about boundaries

31:27

Yeah, we talk about who who is your authentic self. And again, we believe that to be in christ

31:32

But what does that what does that even mean? What does that look like? How do you figure that out? and um, we have two more left i'm trying to think what they are but Uh, yeah trust building a community yeah, no, this is great and and give me thoughts too because I mean

31:47

With reading freedom of mind and and combating cult mind control by steve hassan It really sounds we talked about this previously like what you're really you and your husband trying to emulate is really

31:57

You know what everything that he does with his bite model, you know behavior control information control thought control emotional control

32:04

And the deceptive recruiting techniques like you're bringing those issues up But you're actually using the christian worldview

32:12

To to give a true accounting for it because everything that steve hassan is articulating in his book like that comes from The christian ethic because steve hassan is a while.

32:23

He's not a christian. He's a you got recruited into the moonies um, he lives in god's world and The reason why he can appeal like why it's wrong to be deceptive to have false, you know, we talked about False recruiting techniques.

32:37

Well, ultimately that stemmed In biblical law, which says that do not bear false witness

32:43

Right, and so there's levels and layers to that. So let's just i'm just curious. So let's talk about that just real quickly the aspects of prevention

32:52

That your ministry real quick. What's the tell me the name of your ministry again be emboldened be emboldened Okay, and so we'll have links in the descriptions to this pod to this where people can find out more about you

33:02

And so and what you're doing here, but the aspects of prevention of deceptive recruiting techniques

33:08

Like what are some of the red flags? I mean one that one that comes up is like deception, uh that a lot of times

33:15

You know when steve hassan, for example when he got recruited by the moonies It was really about it was like a personal development retreat.

33:23

It wasn't up front saying this is run by sung young moon um, or even if you look at Organizations like within scientology that when they do the

33:33

When they view someone as a suppressive person where they have to they do their fair game policy where they go after people who

33:40

Speak out against scientology a lot of the groups that go after them are these human rights groups

33:46

But those are actually fronts for scientology. So you always see a lot of deceptive recruiting like in different cults and destructive destructive groups

33:55

For you specifically what are areas that you try that you try to kind of pinpoint to make people wary of Of how they can get into like a bad either church or a destructive cult

34:06

There's quite a few but i'll just give you a couple of examples. So This idea this elitism of this church is is the best

34:15

It's the right one this kind of maybe more subtle but still an us versus them mentality Like this were it were the real deal this idea of i'm the real deal

34:23

So that's concerning and again, these are flags. They're not always Gonna be like, okay.

34:29

This is a huge problem and sometimes even if it is a problem We can go to leadership and we can have a conversation and and we should do that You know, we don't necessarily just have to run it depends on which red flag we're talking about here

34:40

Yeah, so there's there's room for dialogue around some of this but some of the other ones, um, definitely theological twist

34:47

There's scriptures that are just very commonly used Matthew 10 35 is one of them.

34:53

I mean Scriptures on authority how you have to I mean, there's a group I was just talked to about where they literally play this video on um on the screen for all their new recruits about all of the scriptures relating to authority and how

35:09

The leader is basically god's mouthpiece and you have to obey authority and you have to do everything they say and i'm like well

35:14

That is certainly a red flag So there's there's quite a variety again, I think we have 15 or 16

35:20

We're actually going to be launching. Um a course related to this in the fall. We're hoping to have it out by the end of september

35:26

Okay Okay, good. Yeah, that's definitely that's definitely one of them And do you have any questions initially about when you think about because I mean all the cults we've looked at And you think about the different ways we've seen previous guests cults that we've looked at and how they try and Promote themselves and deceptively recruit, you know have an abuse of authority

35:46

There's good biblical authority. God has appointed all sorts of authorities whether it's a civil magistrate or a church government

35:52

There's always all these abuses of that Like what andrew what are some thoughts that you have that come to mind when it comes to this this whole area?

35:59

I mean, this could be a whole podcasting of itself I mean a podcast a podcast inception level

36:05

So yeah, when I think about more of uh, the healing side or coming out of a cult and you're in uh, now the church or you're

36:14

You know under the authority of great local elders plural and they're there to breathe life and life into you point you to the scriptures

36:21

I think of Essentially kind of like what uh, naomi was talking about earlier like when she was having to pick up her cross

36:26

Uh and follow christ it's you know, there's pain in those aspects But at the same time it's almost like phantom pains, right?

36:32

Because the old has gone But the new has come and so when you're dealing with things from your past you're almost uh having to re -examine these old traumas in your life

36:41

Right, you have to bring up the old again to replace it with christ in a sense but I mean The bible like you were saying jerry gives us the best foundation in order to seek true meaning and purpose even even even in this life, like it says in colossians chapter 3 it says

36:55

If then you have been raised with christ seek the things that are above where christ is seated at the right hand of god Set your minds on the things that are above not on things that are on earth for you have died

37:04

Your life is hidden with christ in god When christ who is your life appears then you will also appear with him in glory and then according to that Keeping your mind on the heavenly things

37:12

This is what you're able to do through jesus christ in the power of christ alone It says put to death therefore what is earthly in you?

37:19

sexual immorality impurity passion evil desire and covetousness Which is idolatry on the account of these the wrath of god is coming in these you too once walked when you were living in Them but now you must put them all away

37:29

Anger wrath malice slander and obscene talk from your mouth like These are parts of the old self that are that are dead and gone, right?

37:36

Even the fact when we're dealing with emotional trauma and pain There's a real reality to where we we don't need we shouldn't be so earthly minded to where we forget the promises of god

37:47

That there's a new creation In us now god is dwelling with us. He has given us the gift of the holy spirit sometimes we believe our own words as scripture right and we fall into pitfalls of vicious cycles and circles of thought that lead us into depression and uh

38:03

Make us think bad about our self -worth or we look back at our past without the lens of christ keeping a heavenly mind

38:10

And we fall prey to the divisive devices of the enemy when really jesus says we need to keep our minds heavenly focused, right?

38:16

To to have a mindset in which that we can see the totality of our lives through the death burial and resurrection of jesus christ

38:23

You know because hindsight's always 2020, right? But the beautiful thing about having a heavenly mind is that we are given foresight through scripture to see that no matter what

38:33

Happens in our life. It's for our good and for god's glory so with the the reality of living as a human being is that we live in a world that god designed

38:42

And he wants us to live according to his purposes Right in relationship with him and that's a blessing and a benefit for us.

38:51

But for some reason us as Fallen human beings even after being saved i'm still a sinner, right?

38:57

He who says what they are without sin the truth isn't in them Uh, we fail but the reality is is that we have everything that we need in god's word and like naomi was saying

39:05

There's psychological like physical ramifications of living in a fallen world. There's there's

39:11

Physiological, you know ramifications of trauma your brain changes, right? There's a real thing

39:16

But I think that we only through the bible actually have the sole authority in order to say, you know

39:22

What that's true but this is what god's word says now and this is how we can move forward and actually grow in relationship and sanctification with christ until we so we

39:33

With him in heaven, right? Like I mean, that's that's the beauty of the script of scripture essentially. That's that's what i'm thinking about Yeah, that's good.

39:41

Hey everyone. If you are watching us right now on apology studios youtube channel You need to know that cultish would not be possible if it wasn't for this studio

39:50

So if you want to support apology of studios, which also makes cultish a possibility for you to enjoy every single week here on youtube

39:57

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40:05

Which will also help support the studio which will allow cultish to be a possibility as well on a weekly basis

40:11

So we thank you all for watching us and now back to the episode So the the second part that's really really cool is that the brain is so malleable it can change again

40:22

So this isn't this isn't permanent like it's literally and i've experienced it myself like I can talk about My story now.

40:31

I don't dissociate. I don't feel sick. I don't like i'm genuinely fine

40:36

And that's because it's no longer this highly emotionally charged traumatic story. It's just a crappy story

40:42

You know, it's just not a good story And honestly the parts where I do have an emotional response would be even when you teared up about what god's done

40:49

I mean, it's so impactful. It's amazing. So that's where I actually, you know feel it And it's it's gratitude and it's joy

40:56

And so our brains they we can change them again and that's part of the work of of working

41:02

You know with someone through trauma So the way god designed us like yeah, you can go through all this and wind up in this place

41:08

But yeah, you really are made new and and you can know that and maybe not everything matches it right now but we can move in that direction and I speak to people so much about hope because It was keeping my eyes on the hope fulfilled in christ that enabled me to go through a healing process otherwise if I was focusing on everything that needed to be healed,

41:32

I That would have been incredibly discouraging. I don't know how anyone's going to really make it through that And so I tell talk to people about like we have to remember there's hope

41:40

And our eyes are set there while we're here kind of going through this stuff. We cannot forget about the hope that we have

41:47

Yeah, so there's almost there's aspects too where you know, you always see that science is always evolving and progressing

41:53

But you always see you know, it only expands and what the bible has already revealed. So, you know neurology for example it's still in its infancy about what we're finding out about the complexities of the human brain just in regards to You know performance and and trauma and all the different ways the brain shapes and how different things affect the brain

42:11

But the fact that the brain can reshape and the fact that it's malleable It's almost confirming the fact where it says don't be do not be conformed to this world

42:19

But be be transformed by the renewing of your mind and so you can apply that towards the world the cults

42:25

Where it's like don't be conformed to these deceptive recruiting techniques or or being you know, manipulated by fear

42:34

Because you're told that the world is going to end and it's going to be armageddon uh, you know right around the corner, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind that now you have the authentic and you can

42:46

Allow like to have the the peace of christ, you know ruling your heart and you can see that transpire and so that's why

42:52

You know, we're we're passionate cultists because we want we want to be able to help ex -cultists because a lot of them

42:59

You know, they're going through sometimes not even realizing what they're going through I think from a mental

43:05

Social psychological mental health standpoint. It's almost the equivalent of the opening scene of save a private ryan

43:11

It's kind of graphic but where you see that one guy kind of walking around aimlessly And then he kind of picks up his arm and like walks off with it

43:19

I mean that scene is disturbing but it's almost like so people who have been in an abusive situation

43:26

Like they're in they're just an oblivious haze many times and they need and they need help and understanding for sure um

43:33

What? Let me ask you this. So like with everything that you do What are some examples of and we talked about this just people different cults that you've dealt with And what was like the main thing that you had you kind of like you have different points

43:46

But what would be like a main focal point that you had had to help specific people through? Like what would be some examples?

43:54

The the groups are Gosh, it's a quite a variety. So I mean, yes, some of the main names that we hear like flds.

44:02

Um, William brenham quite a few of those because of my connection with john So but many of these situations they don't have names like they go by we're christian

44:13

So you might have the name of the church, you know, whatever they named that church building that they meet in But they're not

44:20

Um, they're not one of these like main Religions that you would think of so there's a lot of that going on And sometimes it looks like an actual church building where people are meeting there, but there's a lot of cultish things happening sometimes it looks like a

44:36

Mentorship figure who's mentoring all these young adults and suddenly he's the only voice They're allowed to hear and it just sort of escalates from there till he kind of takes over So I see a lot of those happening.

44:47

So i've been much less focused on These kind of big categories and this is actually a huge category in and of itself and and between that and religious trauma kind of I see it as a bit of a spectrum so we can have something that just it's unhealthy

45:04

And then we can have all the way to like this is cult abuse And so kind of anywhere in between I mean there are people that we work with plenty of them who have come out of Just a mainstream denominational experience where that church has just done some things

45:16

They should not have and that needs to be addressed and they They need to step back and heal before they feel like they can step forward and find a healthy environment again

45:24

Yeah well, what do you think is the catalyst because I think that's one of the challenges i've noticed too is that You know people have wondered if we could start an online network, you know

45:34

Where you know cultures kind of kind of get together and gather together. I think one of the challenges is that ultimately

45:40

To help people in spiritually abusive environments It is the church's role because a lot of it does there is a level two where it's like we got

45:48

Fingers, we've got to point back at ourselves as we're pointing out Like there's there's a responsibility that the church has to do things the correct way

45:54

That's why you know, it says that teachers are going to fall under a stricter form of judgment as well, too but I think i've seen a lot of times

46:02

I remember back. Uh, and this is when this was a Concerned christian.

46:08

This is judy jim and judy roberts's ministry here in mesa, arizona There were a lot of ex -mormons, uh, you know is is it was aimed towards Mormons, but there was like an ex -mormon support group and all of them would gather together almost like a aa

46:22

Like a aa meeting and they would get together and talk about everything that they're going through But a lot of them just they would not get plugged into a healthy and local church

46:31

Now while it is good together to help them and have people that they can talk to and have those outlets

46:36

You know the bible does talk about don't forsake the assembly and the gathering of the people and obviously there is a process but Sometimes there is a point where people are going to start suffering almost unnecessarily

46:50

Or the suffering is going to be self -inflicted because of the fact that You need to be plugged into a body

46:57

And you're not going to be immune to hurt like there's been times even at our church where people sin against one another

47:03

You know and you have to prepare people for that. So You know, how do you like?

47:08

How do we help people actually transition into the church because you you want to help them, but they shouldn't stay there

47:14

You know what I mean? Right? Like how do we how do we work that out from your vantage point? So yes, it does take time

47:20

I mean it takes time for someone to to heal to the point where they feel like they can do that Some people jump right in but then it you know, depending on the person they end up stepping back out so it can look different I love the church.

47:31

I get asked this sometimes especially from pastors who are like wait Are you are you against the church with the work that you do and absolutely not?

47:37

Um, I I know the mess that the church is and I still love the church and i'm a part of it So I kind of have to or I guess

47:43

I just I hate myself along with everybody else but because I fit right in you know, i'm a mess too, so I I understand though the complexity that goes along with someone stepping into a healthy church environment

47:56

First of all, they have to believe that that exists and they also have to know how to judge if it is one

48:01

Because they really may not know they really may not know what they're looking for yeah, they could totally wind up in like some progressive environment or something like that or like A upci see upci church.

48:13

I've known people who have done that or I mean people just they don't understand what they're supposed to be Looking at and what they're not

48:19

So I think giving people those tools is really important But the emotional response so you guys to give you an example

48:27

My husband was doing some news ministry at a church quite a few years back and because he was on staff

48:32

There were some you know expectations on me as his wife to be involved and be at certain things and stuff like that Which is common.

48:38

Yeah and I had such a strong Like ptsd response and i'm using that word appropriately some people don't but I mean it it was a true ptsd response

48:50

That I genuinely felt like I was going to have a psychotic break and I ended up getting help, you know

48:55

I sought mental care for that. I was like, okay. I need some help like this is not I am not doing well and they actually told me after I came through it fine and with great tools and incredible healing and And now i'm not in that place anymore.

49:08

Thank god, but they actually told me in retrospect. They're like When you dissociate for days like that, like you can actually split into multiple personalities

49:16

Like that's a legit thing that can happen And so it's really good that Excuse me, you knew enough to kind of step back and say i'm pushing this too far so I wouldn't want to push someone where they end up in that kind of scenario like people need the permission to kind of Step out for a minute if they have to And then get the support they need step back in But To just totally stay out of it.

49:40

Not only are we told to be in community, but you guys that we need community And that was one of my trigger words this whole like let's do life together.

49:48

I'm like, what does that mean? I don't know. Yeah, let's let's go get a let's go get a commune together, right? You know, yeah,

49:53

I was like, I don't want to sign up for that So just building that trust and again learning and even trust that we're gonna know if it's good or bad

50:00

And finding what is a wise counsel. I thought these people were wise and they weren't right Um, even for example too andrew, give me your thoughts on this, too

50:07

Uh, so clay who is on our episode right right around when we started forever ago

50:13

It's hardly this in four years But there is an instance when he clay is a ex -jehovah's witness and he's got he's one of our previous episodes

50:21

Uh, and he he was for I think it was like 30 something years. He was a jw and You know, obviously a big aspect of people who are abused by the watchtower bible and track society is the disfellowshipping

50:34

Where it's just like you're shunned and you're treated less than human You're there you're instructed by the people who are close to you.

50:41

Don't even look into their eyes Like that's the level of like abuse that happens with that So that being said

50:48

So clay is brand new in christ. He is um, you can give me your thoughts on this, too and Yeah, so clay is brand new in christ.

50:56

We had an instance where we had to do church discipline And so he was a brand new he also he just had become a member of our church as a members only meeting

51:03

Uh pastors fully explained what the situation was and why this person had we had to bring them before the church because they were unrepentant and After that it was it was situation for most people who have been in the faith for a long time

51:16

Okay, it's understandable. We need to pray for this person I could see that clay was like deer in the headlights

51:23

And I knew I could just tell Fight or flight and so I came up to him like hey, man, you want to talk, you know, and he is like, yeah

51:30

And so I think I think we might have met up with him andrew. I think yeah, we met up and we we We had to explain

51:36

Like no, this is not this is not shut. This is not this is not disfellowshipping Like we understand like your mind is like going there and you're probably thinking of you're also associating that with You know the times that you had other friends who are disfellowshipped and and end up, you know taking substances or or end up, you know, just going down really dark paths because They felt like they lost everything and now all of a sudden the pastor's doing something that was necessary and biblical

52:06

You know because of just we're only human that caused him to go back and relive all this trauma

52:12

And you know, thankfully, you know, we are there to where we understood that But I think this is a conversation that a lot of times, you know, even a good and healthy church, especially even an apology at utah

52:24

There's times where someone could come in, you know, like a former flds member Or you know some other destructive cult where you guys are just doing what's necessary but they're going to view it through the filter and the lens of This spiritual counterfeit and I think we have to be aware of that and you know, we have to be able to give tangible answers with a level of compassion to kind of get them in the right direction and Help them renew their mind both.

52:51

Yeah I'm, so glad that you were there to actually approach him because clay may not have been able to approach you guys

52:58

He might have just been like I don't know what to do with this and skirt it off you know out of the back door and so for people to be aware of who's in their room, and that's something i've spoken about is

53:09

The leadership doesn't necessarily expect people like me or people like clay to be walking into their church

53:14

But I promise you they're in there. Yeah, you know, we're in there We're maybe very undercover because we've been taught how to do that.

53:21

Yeah, but we are in there and so to just open up the door to Have these kinds of conversations and to let people know

53:30

We've got a mix in our room and we're aware of that people have come from different backgrounds and and here's here's you know an opportunity for dialogue and somehow providing support

53:40

Where people have a level of education to at least know who to connect them with if it's you know outside of their level of expertise, but just an initial

53:49

Friend who can follow up and walk alongside them as well as like I said connect with other supports if needed

53:55

But when I first was walking into churches I mean people looked at me like I had two heads and backed away slowly

54:01

I mean, they didn't know what to do with this and god bless them Like I I mean, I didn't know what to do with it either

54:06

So I certainly wasn't, you know holding them accountable to that at the time, but we can do better And we want we need to do better because this is an enormous population when you put it all together

54:17

I mean, it's huge and so for the church to feel ill -equipped. I totally respect and understand

54:23

But let's address that and let's get equipped and that's something that being bold and really really cares about as well is how

54:30

How do you love people? Well who are coming in with that kind of background? How do you open up the door?

54:36

For these conversations. Yeah. No, you're absolutely absolutely true I mean, this is one of the biggest you're talking about, you know, the cults being the mission field next door

54:46

I think ex -cultists are even bigger because you think about Like the Lloyd Evans type of people

54:52

Who are ex -cultists who or the Mike Rinder type of people? like I don't I from what

54:58

I understand Mike Rinder is not a Christian, but you know, they They have they understand their identity as a fact that they're now ex -cultists and these things happen to them

55:06

But they stay there. So a lot of people who are in this situation. That's a huge demographic of people anywhere

55:11

For sure. Andrew. Just what what questions would you have to bring? I want to bring into this so given you, you know, you're the head deacon and you know, you really

55:21

Salt Lake City, Utah is really a central hub when it comes to uh cultism not just not just regular mormonism, but the off splints and offshoots and Everything else that is in that area and kind of knowing

55:35

What the mission of apology at Utah like what are what are some questions or some thoughts that you have?

55:41

Yeah, just in terms of the the general conversation that we were talking about essentially like, you know Where things can come up that can essentially trigger somebody with ptsd or some traumatic experience experiences that they may have had in the past uh it

55:53

The word deprogramming is really I say a very Good word in terms of talking to someone who is coming out of the cults because if we think about it

56:01

It's like there's a console command I don't know if you ever push the console button On your computer, but you type in something and all these other things pop up in a in a big line, right?

56:08

So what we need to be able to identify as people in the church is we need to number one We need to you know, put people above ourselves, which we should be doing in the church body again

56:17

None of us are perfect, but we should really care about others that are around us, especially in the situation so we can realize and see within somebody if they're if they're dealing with the situation because all of a sudden they're they're coming out of a

56:28

Occult like mindset let's say like clay and now they're in a situation where they're seeing someone get church discipline in the console command

56:33

They see church church discipline pops up. But now they've been programmed to where church discipline

56:39

Associates specifically with disfellowship and now all of these In their head this line of just all this stuff that they went through in the jehovah's witnesses

56:47

Pops up right? We need to be able to understand what these people are going through. I mean we have biblical precedents for this

56:53

So in second corinthians 1 verse 3 it says this it says blessed be the god and father of our lord Jesus christ the father of mercies and god of all comfort

57:01

Who comforts us in all of our afflictions so that we may be able to comfort those? Who are in any affliction with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted?

57:10

by god For as we share abundantly in christ's suffering. So through christ we share abundantly in comfort, too right

57:18

I mean understanding the sacrifice of christ understanding the suffering that he went through when we can actually understand

57:24

Ourselves in a light to where we put others before ourselves right in like philippians chapter 2 having the same mind

57:30

In you that was in christ jesus Although he eternally exists in the form of god did not consider equality with god something to be grasped

57:36

Therefore he emptied himself if we were to treat people in that in that way To really care about them within our church body.

57:43

We can come around them and talk with them Right point them to the word of god This is why we're doing what we're doing if you think you don't have the ability to help comfort somebody

57:51

I think you're in direct opposition with what scripture says about you. Maybe it's just Sometimes you're not necessarily putting others before yourself.

57:59

We really got to think about ourselves in terms of What our motives are of course before we ever want to try to comfort someone or any affliction

58:06

You want to make it worse for them? But if we have christ as our guide in his word

58:11

I mean, that's what the body of christ is Therefore we're supposed to share with one another our burdens, you know

58:17

Not overshare like we talked about earlier with noami. We don't want to overshare with everything that's going on our lives

58:23

Of course, but what we should be doing is we should be gathering with each other. Do not forsake the assembly

58:29

Help your brother if you see them struggling just like what happened organically in our church body

58:34

We had jerry who's talked with clay myself as well. He saw that he was struggling with something This is what god does he brings people together to help one another, you know

58:41

It's a beautiful thing that god has given us in his mercy in his grace the ability to overcome things in our lives like people pointing us to god's word really it's a

58:52

It's a beautiful and merciful thing. So even out here in utah yeah, we have had situations where uh, maybe someone who is flds has come to service or Other people are struggling with things that they're seeing because they're coming out of mormon culture

59:04

Well, guess what we dig into it we get into the word of god We say well, this is what god says and guess what? You're not an ex -mormon, right?

59:12

You're not an ex -addict You are a new creation in christ jesus Your identity now is in christ and this is what you need to realize we need to go back into the console programming

59:22

We need to delete We need to delete and replace with identity of christ essentially or actually

59:29

Not necessarily say forget everything that's ever happened to you But in the console command say but god but god but god but god in order to really understand

59:39

Your circumstances and the experiences that you're that you're going through if you don't have a biblical lens

59:44

It's really hard to understand suffering in light of the suffering of christ, right? So, I don't know that's kind of what i'm thinking about right now jerry, yeah, no, that's really good.

59:54

What are your thoughts on that? so Yes, absolutely But I also want to add there's a couple there's a couple things that the church has working against it

01:00:03

And one is culture the culture has american culture. Anyway has really sensationalized these stories and so and that's

01:00:10

That really irritates me. So i'm not a fan of that because these are real lives These are real people and these lives have just been devastated um, and so we we don't want to Just get interested or just get curious and be like, wow, this is fascinating So i've seen a lot of that personally and with people

01:00:28

I meet with just people are just like really interested So we want to avoid doing that and we also want to avoid

01:00:34

Being so afraid that we don't know what to say that we just don't say anything Like we don't want to pretend that it doesn't exist

01:00:40

We don't want to pretend that this person didn't go through this experience. So you're gonna say stuff wrong Like just let me give you permission you're gonna say stuff that is going to Trigger them that maybe wasn't the perfect way to say it because you're you're not an expert on what someone else lived in their cult experience

01:00:56

So like you're you can only go so far now That's not an excuse to not learn, you know and not try to grow and to to know

01:01:03

Maybe better or more options on how to engage someone but You hopefully know how to love if you're a christian and if you need a refresher

01:01:11

You can go to first corinthians 13 you can remind yourself And so if you if you look at that and you're like, okay, well, maybe

01:01:18

I don't really know exactly what to say But I can listen That's huge for someone to be heard

01:01:24

And it's actually very healing again with how trauma impacts the brain telling the story is really healing And so for someone to feel heard and then to still be invited to dinner the next day

01:01:33

Like are you kidding me? I shared that with you and you're still inviting me into your home Like that's unheard of that's unprecedented Yeah, so to not be afraid of that person

01:01:40

Because they've already been treated when they were excommunicated from their group Whatever that or maybe they weren't to me, you know, whatever that looked like when they stepped out

01:01:49

They were treated as if their dirt was gonna gonna get on their loved one's white robes. That's how they were treated

01:01:55

It's like I can't even call you because then you're i'm tarnished by having contact with you So the last thing we want to do is to hear part of someone's story and then out of our own insecurities back away

01:02:06

That's going to feel really familiar Yeah, so let's invite them in and let's go ahead and mess up and learn and we can just directly state that Um, I was just told a comment this morning

01:02:16

It's like oh, well, I kind of felt like this because they didn't know this i'm like well then tell them that You know, so if we don't know what to say to say this is so out of my comfort zone

01:02:24

I I have no idea what to do, but I really care And so i'm probably going to say some stuff.

01:02:30

Do you mind telling me when I do because I don't want to say it again Yeah No, that's good, let me ask you this so as we've got you know, uh

01:02:38

Kind of like towards the end of this I want to get just some ideas of just your thought process Because I mean how long have you been doing this now?

01:02:44

This work specifically we're only at about a year and a half. Oh, wow But there's so much of I mean i've been a social worker for 10 years

01:02:51

I mean there's so much of that that's coming with me uh, so I we did a post and I think this episode's gonna resonate with a lot of people because I feel like we've only kind of really

01:03:00

Begun the very unpeeling about where I think we're trying to do here Just start a conversation because I think this is just something that the church has to look at Um, just because never you posted anything on our social media.

01:03:10

We get tons of tons of responses. So Um, I was asking I did a post and I basically said what's the biggest?

01:03:17

For any of you who are recovering from a spiritual abuse if you're an ex -cult member What's the biggest hurdle you've had to overcome?

01:03:24

Uh, one of the things that just came immediately and you can give me your thoughts I want to try and get through as many of these as we can uh was someone said the ability to really trust anyone or anything anymore because most people

01:03:34

I call it the The morpheus holding up the battery moment of the major of the original matrix where it's like you have that all of a sudden

01:03:41

Other edge of the looking glass, you know every your ass your Aspects of reality everything is fragmented and you're like, oh my goodness

01:03:48

Everything I believe is a lie and kind of that initial shock, you know of that i've seen it

01:03:55

Where i've shown i've talked with the i've shown lds missionaries and people who are lds uh documents

01:04:02

Uh, and and photographs of certain aspects of the lds scriptures showing the outright fraud And you see i've seen people's whole world fall apart right then and there and What do you and then and all of a sudden that happens?

01:04:17

And they leave so on top of that you have your whole aspect of reality destroyed But then you have the shunning and the people being disconnected and then it's like how do

01:04:26

I trust anyone or anything again? That's where they're at So instinctively you've dealt this conversation before what's your approach to that?

01:04:33

What are your thoughts on that? I've found that trusting one's own judgment is actually what it boils down to because if we trust our own judgment then we're not as worried about everybody else

01:04:45

Like if I trust that you're a good person and I have a reason to believe that then i'm not So worried about you being a bad person or if you do

01:04:52

I have a context to kind of work that through So really I think what this comes down to is our minds have a lot more value than we've been told in these groups

01:05:02

And we need to get educated. We need to start asking those questions. We weren't allowed to ask Yeah, so we don't have to just have this blind faith for anything

01:05:10

You know, we don't have to just blindly go follow the next person, which is very easy to do There's definitely people who cult hop by accident.

01:05:16

It's not their intention And we're not we're just not used to being able to engage our minds We're used to just being told what we should think and what we should feel

01:05:24

And that's a very scary place to be when we just found out everything we thought and felt wasn't actually based on reality

01:05:30

So now it's well, what do I do with that? and coming out of that is I mean The best way

01:05:35

I can explain it is like what if I try to tell you guys like you don't really have a body You're just I had to take this philosophy class in undergrad the mind body problem

01:05:43

Yeah, it was like the one c I got because I just did not have the time for that nonsense, right? So I was like, this is so stupid um, which sorry,

01:05:51

I don't think all the philosophy is that way, but that was just like I mean if I hit you, would you feel it? I mean you have a body so um, i'm a bad philosophy student, but Imagine that if if someone tells you

01:06:01

I mean you start to feel like your mind is just bending in a way It can't like it's like it's not flexible. I can't go there. I can't imagine this

01:06:07

That's what it's like coming out of a worldview and finding out because everything you did was based on that And now all of it

01:06:14

Is unreal and what does that mean? What does that say about what you've done and the decisions you've made the things your family's done the decisions they've made?

01:06:22

I mean, there's a lot of fallout. So you've got to start with me like our minds are important We're told to love god with all our minds.

01:06:29

So yeah, that's that's all we need guys like start asking those questions and get educated so that you are better able to Decide what you get involved with and what you don't that's going to start to rebuild trust.

01:06:41

Okay? All right, that's a big thing another one too like how do we deal with people that um

01:06:47

There's another question that came up too. So people that are dealing with cults that have that noah's ark mentality that noah's ark aspect where Salvation is only contingent upon the group

01:06:58

So again, you're talking about how the first time you're going to come into a christian church You thought the gates of hell were going to like, you know implode if you came into that church um

01:07:09

So a lot of times salvation is contingent upon You know your adherence to the specific church or your obedience to this particular leader

01:07:16

And people come out of out the other end of that. So that's that's something that people have Have to deal with that Like how do you help people through that process who have been through an experience of that whether it's a major cult you're saying these small little micro micro cults so something that's been really really helpful for people even people

01:07:34

I work with now who identify as Atheists who at this point in time are like I I want nothing to do with with any of that But i'm still trying to figure out what it was that happened to me is

01:07:44

Even if they're uncomfortable opening up a bible I can talk to them about it and I ask their permission to do so I pretty much always get it

01:07:51

And it's really helpful to be able to tell them what you were told isn't actually in there um, especially when you take it in context and you take the bible as a whole now if you want a cherry pick you can

01:08:01

Pretty much find anything in there you want to but if you're going to have proper exegetical and hermeneutical skills

01:08:06

That's not what it looks like so starting to teach people how to read the bible and and what that looks like and how to then apply

01:08:13

And how to look at context and cultural and all these different pieces and being able to show them What you were told isn't even in there

01:08:21

And that can be really healing for people even if they're not yet able to open the bible themselves So I don't know if I ever told you this andrew there's one time where we actually

01:08:31

I actually had to do that Um, actually it was uh, pastor jeff and I we had met with someone.

01:08:37

Uh, Who had been a victim of sex trafficking? And she was trafficked, uh from a young age

01:08:44

Uh, most likely it was and also like sra was involved as well, too satanic ritual abuse and these group

01:08:53

Was using specific scriptures to justify her being violated multiple multiple times our counseling session and it was honestly and it was hard because it was like she was

01:09:09

Numb to the fact she was just talking like this stuff happened to her nonchalant and Like we had to go through, you know,

01:09:17

I was there with jeff And we were showing this person that We were having to show them the actual like context of what this passage actually meant

01:09:28

It was like one by one Saying no, this did not mean That it's okay

01:09:33

For people to violate you that way And god hates that and so yeah, there's like levels and layers to which

01:09:41

I think the christian what you're saying i'd resonate the fact that you know We need like bad theology hurts people and Interpreting interpreting scripture correctly

01:09:52

Hurts people as well, too And we have a responsibility to show people like the reality of what of what god's word actually says because I just remember

01:10:01

That experience specifically looking at someone who had shared with us what had happened to her and it was just Yeah, I mean it was just very

01:10:13

I it still gets to me to this day I think that's it's such an important thing to be able to do when you see up close and personal

01:10:22

That type of evil, uh that goes on and the responsibility to help people through that process

01:10:28

Oh, yeah, it's devastating. That's a horrific story and I have met other people who have experienced sra and Talk about time and talk about support

01:10:38

And the the numbness, I mean I told my story that way so many times It's living in the state of being numb and the state of being dissociated from what

01:10:47

I was actually talking about not connecting the emotion To anything and that can actually be our body's way.

01:10:52

Honestly, our brain is is wonderful. I mean god's design is It's insane.

01:10:58

Yeah, so but it's a way to actually protect us Yeah, you know the fact that we can't connect at all because if we connect at all too fast

01:11:04

It can actually you know send us off the edge. So I'm, I understand why she was in that place.

01:11:10

But absolutely there's there's healing and knowing No, what

01:11:15

I what I experienced was still horrific. It was it was awful. It was unacceptable But god wasn't attached to it and there's evidence to prove that and it's in scripture.

01:11:26

Oh, no, definitely for sure Um, what about the aspects too and andrew? Let me know if you have a i'll let you jump on the next question, uh two if you have anyone specifically about quite like How we would help if you have questions and things like that, but like one two

01:11:39

You can give me your thoughts on this just real quickly is the aspect of just like abandonment you know a lot of times people a lot of people grow up in a very dysfunctional and broken homes and in all of a sudden going into a spiritually abusive environment or just something or even on a small layer can be very very devastating towards someone and so um

01:11:58

We did a series and I think I talked to you about it A couple months ago, I was probably six months ago

01:12:04

We were critiquing the series that christianity today did about uh, the rise and fall of mars hill

01:12:09

And so just in our social media people were commenting on it. You know, we critique the podcast We didn't really have me and mark driscoll now.

01:12:16

He adheres. He's local. He's not too far from here I don't have a bone to pick with him But this i'm just observing a comment that someone made on our social media

01:12:23

And this person didn't have any bitterness or animosity or anything like that. She was acknowledging what she experienced

01:12:29

Is that you know, she came from a very broken home in seattle and so driscoll was like a father figure to her in many ways uh, and so When you know, he was saying, you know, we're all going to be together.

01:12:42

We're all going to grow old together I'm gonna, you know, we're going to have our great grandchildren and just kind of talking about this huge legacy vision he had for mars hill in seattle and so when he when things fell apart and he just came down here to phoenix and Started back up again and in such a way that mars hill basically never even existed for her.

01:13:04

She said it was like I Relive it was just me. I couldn't help it. I I was

01:13:09

I was pushed back to relive all my Younger trauma of all that abandonment, you know, and there's there's multiple examples how you can do that how

01:13:18

You know someone can experience something like that But from your perspective like what would you do in a situation like that?

01:13:23

I'm sure you had similar circumstances as well, too Oh sure, I mean and that one's interesting because in that scenario,

01:13:30

I mean the leader left oftentimes It's the person getting kicked out or the person is writing for some reason or another but in either direction whatever that looks like We we are relational as much as maybe people who are ex -cultists don't want to admit that because it feels unsafe

01:13:44

We are relational and on some deep level somewhere maybe hidden under a lot of baggage. We desire

01:13:52

Relationships we can trust and we can count on and we want that and we need that we were made to want that and need That and so to have someone breach that trust

01:14:00

And in such a major way and especially again, we are always upping the ante when we add the spiritual component

01:14:07

Like that's that's different when we're attaching god's name to what we're doing And even if we don't say god said this or god did this if i'm in a spiritual leadership role by default

01:14:18

The two are getting put together and sometimes I mean I feel for the person in leadership and that's why it's

01:14:24

You know, why would anyone want to be in leadership? I don't understand that but I mean they do they're held to a higher level of accountability and for good reason

01:14:31

They're influencing others So when you put all this together, we end up with a person who is is connecting

01:14:37

Something spiritually most likely to what happened And we want to make sure that's not getting projected onto god

01:14:44

Yeah, and who he is and I think that's super important is Yes, this is what humanity can look like and no

01:14:50

That's not what it should be like that is a part of the brokenness and we need to address that we need to talk about that and we also need to look to what god's plan actually is for us in relationship and again create that distinction of This is god and this is not

01:15:06

And we don't want to get we don't want to start getting the two confused and typically the two get confused We've got to start to untangle

01:15:12

Hmm. Yeah. So yeah, go ahead. Go ahead. Andrew Yeah, so i'm kind of wondering because I know we can get into each person's intricacies of questions or like the things that have gone into their lives, but when it when it boils down to it, is there like fundamental principles or issues that almost everybody

01:15:27

Experiences, right? Like you have to go throughout Their lives, but it always boils down to one or two or three different things

01:15:34

Is it kind of like that in the approach that you're getting to you're kind of whittling it down to what these some of these Core issues are and what what would they be because I would

01:15:41

I would assume like someone's coming out of q anon For example or some very conspiratorial

01:15:47

Mindset of a of a cult and um, it can be extremely probably intricate To go through their lives, but always typically boils down to a few fundamental things.

01:15:57

What what do you think they are? From your experience so how to read the bible People typically don't know how to do that.

01:16:03

How do I read it? How do I exegete it what translations okay or some say for at least all of that lots of questions regarding the bible itself

01:16:10

And how do I engage with the bible? How do I approach it? And then how do I apply it? So that's huge That's an obviously foundational.

01:16:17

So lots of confusion around that Lots of concerns about trust.

01:16:22

How do I how do I know who to trust and who not to trust? I feel like I got that wrong Previously and so how do

01:16:29

I know i'm not going to get it wrong again? So that piece of it receiving forgiveness Again, like we've already talked about that's huge and how to actually going along with trust

01:16:40

How do I actually find a healthy community? Like what does that mean? Because again, we're not going to find perfection on the side of jesus's second coming

01:16:47

So what does that actually look like? How do I discover it? um And how do

01:16:52

I start to to work through maybe these triggered emotions that I have? How do I start to de -trigger?

01:16:58

And de -escalate that emotional response because my head is saying okay, this is fine But emotionally

01:17:04

I don't feel fine. And so what do I do with that? And so again, there's a just a relationship needed for that aspect

01:17:12

No, that's good And even though what I appreciate too is that in this whole process one of our passions as well, too

01:17:17

What we're passionate about is that? In this process of being available people can come and reach out to you.

01:17:22

There have been you know, it has been a catalyst to Read, you know share the god to share the gospel them to show them the authentic and show that you experience a counterfeit

01:17:31

And ultimately, you know and trust that you know in that process, you know, the lord would open their eyes

01:17:38

To see the truth, but you know there have been opportunities for that as well, too Which I think you you have an amazing platform

01:17:43

I think all of us should be looking for that as well, too And that's why specifically, you know the very beginning of our we have the audio at the very beginning of walter martin

01:17:51

Where he says you're in a cult. I love you and I want you out of it And with christ

01:17:57

I think in the same way, you know, we could say the x cult is like you were in a cult I love you and I want

01:18:04

I don't I want you to have the authentic I want you to have christ of what you were experiencing and I think this whole conversation many ways is like I know it's your it's your passion my passion that We want people whether it's people who are in the new age

01:18:20

Or whether they're in a cult and even aspects of the new age, I mean there's is very cultish we have to be able to understand them and so You know just one example real quickly as we wrap up here

01:18:30

So people in the new age and you know understanding them I haven't been involved in new age But what

01:18:35

I have understood that a lot of them who come out Tend to immediately be very like conspiratorial minded and I think part of that has to do is that you're

01:18:44

That spirituality it's all about this definitive certainty about the way that the world is

01:18:50

And that you are the center and focal point of everything and you know You're you have had your eyes open to this deeper hidden knowledge

01:18:57

And all of a sudden when god opens your eyes the fact that it's deception All of a sudden it's like almost you get in this weird like cage stage where all of a sudden like you're in christ

01:19:06

And you love god But you almost adopt this reverse pantheism Where like everything's of the devil because I everything that I thought

01:19:14

I knew it's like they're It's like they're morpheus it's like their world fragmenting all of a sudden like they adopt that so I think there's levels in which

01:19:23

You know, you have to be patient with them and understand even a lot of brand new christians who are ex -cultists

01:19:29

They're they're toddlers. They're christian toddlers And so I think there's levels in which we also and you'd agree with me like we have to be gracious towards them

01:19:37

And to help understand them but also be able to speak the truth to them as well with compassion Yes, and just remember that where they're at probably came from somewhere, you know

01:19:47

They're where they're at for a reason and so you may not know that reason but just assume there's probably something attached to this

01:19:53

So I want again we want to approach in love We want to have patience. We want to have grace. We want to have understand.

01:19:58

We want to have all these things and um again, you can go double check what that looks like because oftentimes

01:20:04

I hear like Oh, i'm doing this in love because i'm calling this person out. Yes We do hold one another accountable that is loving to do our approach still matters and how we're going to do it

01:20:13

So this doesn't mean that if an ex -cultist is in your church and they have you know, they're just continuing and doing causing upheaval in ways that you just Let it slide don't we do we have to hold accountable?

01:20:24

That's part of helping them grow and loving them, but we can do it again also in a loving way

01:20:29

No, definitely. I agree. Um andrew any last thoughts you have as we wrap up here or anything anything?

01:20:35

No, I think that's great good. I think it's great. Okay. Awesome So real quickly, where can people find you and find out more about the work that uh, you and your husband are currently doing

01:20:44

Be emboldened .com be emboldened .com and then social media and everything, you know is attached from there

01:20:50

And if I can make one last comment, I mean again from my my own story That's an invitation for everybody.

01:20:57

I mean jesus offers this to everyone And it's it's not it's not what you've been told it is

01:21:03

And so I just I hope that people feel encouraged that wherever they are right now when they're listening to this episode

01:21:09

Whatever suffering they're going through just like I knew when I was in the deepest darkest times of it that that didn't have to be

01:21:15

Permanent. I knew that god was giving me an invitation to take his hand and it would then be temporary That's that's open to everybody

01:21:22

So I just I pray that that encourages people that if you're in that depth of the darkness right now It does not have to stay that way

01:21:29

Awesome, well, thank you again for coming on and your whole story is is just encouraging I mean, especially now having heard everything, you know that john collins told about us with william brandon, but now kind of seeing you know still

01:21:41

In the offshoots of everything that was happened all the collateral damage has happened because of that whole movement

01:21:46

Still seeing like fragments where like yourself where now god's working together for good and here you are helping other people as well, too

01:21:53

It's it's really It's really exciting and it's it's a motivating for me to continue to do what we're doing on our end as well, too so Awesome.

01:22:01

Thank you again. So if you guys enjoyed this episode, I appreciate you definitely let us know as you thought and Always a program like this cannot continue without your support

01:22:10

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01:22:15

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