What does the Bible say about illegal immigration? Is there a biblical solution?-Podcast Episode 110

Immigration as a Biblical and Political Issue

Welcome to the Got Questions podcast. One of the most frequently asked questions we get that has a large, I'll say a political component to it is something about immigration. It seems to be very, very common in election years, especially in the summer when illegal immigration seems to become more of a problem.

So this is an episode we've been wanting to do for the right time. It's just a matter of me finding the right guest. So I've of course been doing research, I'm trying to find someone who I've found presents a, what I've found to be a very biblically balanced perspective.

So joining me today is Reverend Samuel Rodriguez, president and founder of the National Hispanic Christian Leadership Conference. So Samuel, welcome to the show today.

Thank you for having me.

So Reverend Samuel, tell us just a little about yourself, a little bit about the National Hispanic Christian Leadership Conference, and also how God's given you a passion for the immigration issue.

Yeah, by the grace of God, we lead the National Hispanic Christian Leadership Conference. It's the nation's oldest and largest Hispanic evangelical network. We have 42 ,000 plus certified member churches.

They are certified annually by a very prestigious law firm. And it's a wonderful network indeed. In addition to that, we produce movies, we write books, speak at conferences, pastor a wonderful multi-ethnic church in California with campuses in Los Angeles and Sacramento.

And I'm the father of three. I have the most amazing wife on the planet. I'm a Trekkie, a Batman fan, a Yankee fan, and here we are.

That is a thorough introduction. So thank you for that. I can see the Batman fan. So what did you think of the most recent Batman movie? Just out of curiosity. I haven't seen it yet, so don't spoil it for me.

Yeah, no, I'm a Christopher Nolan fan and I'm in the industry. So there's only one Christopher Nolan and one Christian Bale. And that's all I have to say about that.

Okay, point taken.

Yeah.

Balancing Law, Compassion, and Immigrant Dignity

So back to the subject at hand. So how can we as evangelicals balance both the biblical call to obey the law, which I think we agree is important, but also with the biblical commands to show love, respect, and compassion to sojourners, to immigrants, to refugees?

I truly believe the biblical antidote to the immigration malaise may very well emerge as the political antidote. The angst for so many years, you have to understand the historical context, not just of migratory patterns as it pertains to the impact on the American demographic from 1776 to the present.

But you would have to go back a little bit to 1986, 87, Ronald Reagan granted amnesty to those that were here illegally. This is a Republican president, by the way, who granted amnesty. He talked about the beauty and the blessing of the immigrant community.

And how these immigrants share the values of our founding fathers, meaning faith, family, hard work, entrepreneurship. Move that forward to 2006, the current debacle. There was legislation proposed by James Sensenbrenner, supported by Tom Tancredo.

And that legislative initiative really saturated the landscape, even rhetorically, with language that does not line up with the Bible.

What do I mean?

It was full of nativist language, language that talked about preserving Western European heritage and doing away with that, which was counter in their perspective to Western European heritage. So we were advising back then, George W. Bush, we've had the privilege of advising three presidents, George W. Bush, President Obama, and President Trump on this issue.

And I always brought about the biblical prescription. I did away with the politics. And I said, here's what the Bible says. We have to be pro-immigrant, Leviticus 19.

Absolutely.

Immigrants are a blessing to America, not a curse. At the same time, Romans 13, we have to be a nation, a sovereign nation, and engaging the rule of law. We are a nation of laws. We have to stop all illegal immigration.

So as Christians, we come in with that lens. It's not either or. Politicians engage in dichotomies, perpetual dichotomies, either or. Christians come along, and we're people of both the vertical and the horizontal planes of the Christian message.

So we're both vertical and horizontal. That's the cross. We're both righteousness and justice. We're both truth and love, conviction and compassion. So we're both John 3 .16 and Matthew 25. Our Christian solution is, it's both and.

What does that mean?

We're a pro-immigrant nation. We love immigrants. We understand they are a blessing. However, we want them to come here legally, not illegally. So we submit to that outline. And I submitted something to both President Obama and to President Trump, and I mean submitted literally in meetings I had with them.

And the solution was, let's stop illegal immigration immediately. Let's engage infrared technology, satellite imaging. We have the technological wherewithal and know-how to read a license plate in Afghanistan from thousands of miles in the air.

We can detect who's coming in over the border illegally. Just a matter of resource and asset allocation. Let's stop all illegal immigration on humanitarian, on a humanitarian purpose and basis first and foremost.

What do I mean?

As a Latino pastor, I know firsthand the issue of sex trafficking. I can tell you horrific stories that will break your heart regarding seven, nine, 10-year-old little girls and boys sexually molested, raped, violated.

Tragedy, and I mean tragic. It's difficult for me to even talk about it. We have churches full of young men and women, boys and girls who are now adults with great trauma because they came here illegally and the coyotes exploited them sexually and so forth.

On that basis alone as a pastor, I want to stop all illegal immigration.

We need to.

We're feeding the cartels and the coyotes. And it's just horrific, tragic, indeed, morally reprehensible. In addition to that, that's the first motivation. We are a sovereign nation and there are people that want to do us harm.

And there's fentanyl being transferred over. There is so much happening over the border, egregiously, negatively impacting our nation via the conduit of illegal immigration. So we want to stop illegal immigration immediately.

Stopping illegal immigration is not anti-American. It's pro-America, and I would argue pro-Christian. Forget America's beautiful and blessed to be an American. I'm a Christian first and foremost. So it's our Heavenly Father before Uncle Sam and God bless Uncle Sam, but sometimes our uncles get drunk.

So I'm going to listen to my Heavenly Father first and foremost. And on that basis alone, we should stop illegal immigration. But in addition to that, we are a sovereign nation. We need to protect our borders.

On the other side, the question always arises, all right, Sam, what do we do with the millions that are here already? That's the question. I can tell you firsthand, the reason we haven't solved the immigration crisis is because there's angst regarding that issue.

What issue?

If we make legal 10 to 20 million individuals who are here without documentation, we are literally empowering a political apparatus. And on one side of the aisle, the Republicans think these are primarily people from Latin America, therefore they will emerge as a voting constituency for the Democratic Party, therefore we will never sign onto.

Even when Donald Trump proposed legalizing the Dreamers, those that came in here as young men and women, young boys and girls, the Democrats said, we don't want to give the Republicans a political advantage because some of these individuals may end up voting Republican.

So both parties have engaged in malfeasance, moral malfeasance, egregious malfeasance regarding utilizing human beings as political toys. Both Republicans and Democrats have. Both are equally guilty. The solution is this.

The solution is if you came to this country illegally and you've been here for years and your children grew up here, and we know that you probably are using a false identification number, social security number, but if you're not living off government entitlements, being welfare and so forth, you're hardworking.

Many of them are church goers, actually 98 of them are, either Catholic or evangelical, Protestant. That's pretty amazing, the number, by the way. So if you're a church goer and you love God, you're hardworking, you came here illegally, here's the solution.

You, we will give you a green card. You will admit you came here illegally. You will pay some fine, be it a de minimis amount, be it $300 or $1 ,000. You're gonna pay a fine. There has to be a sense of culpability.

But you're here legally going forward, but you'll never become a citizen of the United States of America. And that's the price you will pay. And there is no and if buts about it, there is no citizenship for you.

Now, your children who you brought over, they shouldn't pay for the sins of their parents. We will grant their children citizenship. Children should not have paid. When you're six and seven year old, years of age and your parents bring you here illegally, you have no vote as it pertains to what happens to your outcome.

So they shouldn't pay for the sins of their parents, as long as they're not involved in the various activities and so forth. So that's the solution that we propose to both President Obama, but we doubled down with President Trump.

And literally over dinner, I gave the president the proposal. And I can tell you, it's gained traction in Congress. I've met with senators and members of Congress, and they have said, this is the biblical solution.

This is the Bible.

You just reconcile Leviticus 19 of Matthew 25 and Romans 13. These three chapters, Leviticus 19, Matthew 25, the sheep and the goat. How do you know you're a sheep or a goat? How do you treat the alien, the stranger, the immigrant, et cetera, the marginalized?

And then Romans 13, the application of the rule of law.

There it is.

That's a biblically substantiated solution where we reconcile mercy and compassion and love, the Imago Dei, with the rule of law. So it's not either or, it's both, Anne.

Why Christians Should Refuse Political Tribalism

I mean, amen, Samuel. That, I've written on this before, just to kind of think, okay, if I were to put together a proposal, I mean, I don't have influence over anyone. I mean, thankfully, a lot of people read GotQuestions .org and watch the podcasts and videos.

So we do have some influence, but in terms of political, that's really not our interest at all. But if I were to put something together, and I've heard you speak on this before, it'd be, if not identical, very, very close to what you propose.

And it makes perfect sense to me, both from a biblical standpoint, and like you said, balancing the need for obeying the laws, but also showing compassion with also the political standpoint, it seems like a compromised view that I'd have trouble seeing either side really being able to come up with a good argument against.

But so in your experience, we'd stick on the political side just a little bit longer. What is the resistance that you're finding from politicians in the United States to the plan that you're proposing?

And I've had an interesting trajectory. I've had issues in 2006, where my pushback came from the right. I've had issues during the Obama administration where the pushback came from the left. I find myself in this, I'm an independent, I am a lambs agenda guy.

So I vote according to biblical values. But that right now, the hesitation is from the left, because they're saying, Reverend Rodriguez, you not granting citizenship is immoral. And I would argue, no, it's actually moral.

Citizenship is not a God ordained right, other than kingdom citizenship in the writings of the apostle Paul. So you came in here illegally, there's a price to pay. There must be consequences to the breaking of a law.

And there must be, if not, we are raising a generation of anarchy and chaos, no respect for the rule of law. So there have to be consequences. And it does away with the political angst on the right. The idea that we're gonna be legalizing millions of democratic voters, well, no.

And by the way, just little side note, little amendment. We're discussing the political component. The idea that every Latino immigrant is gonna automatically vote one political party, meaning the Democratic Party, as you well know from the past few weeks and months, totally a misnomer.

And I've been saying this for 20 plus years. Latino immigrants primarily are very conservative in their worldview, faith, family, entrepreneurship. Some of them come from totalitarian, socialist, communist regimes.

So they already line up, as we have seen recently in Texas and Florida and so forth, with many on the right at the Republican Party. So yeah, that's the angst. Right now, the pushback is from Democrats saying, no, they must be granted citizenship.

Your plan is immoral. And I'm arguing my plan is the only thing that could actually bring a solution, a practical solution that both sides would side onto. And I do believe we'll gain some traction. Inevitably, we will gain some traction,.

Especially after this upcoming November.

I will be meeting with members from both sides of the aisle and establishing a coalition to push immigration reform in some time next year.

Treating Immigrants and Opponents with Grace

That's fantastic. I'd love for you, if possible, to keep me posted on how things are going. If nothing else, I could be praying for this. When I grew up in South Texas, and even back then, I remember this being a controversy.

We're talking 40 plus years ago. People were arguing about that then. And here we are four decades later, and we're still fighting over some of the same issues. And it's infuriating, but it's also sad when you look at the people who are involved.

There are people who are, like you said, being used as pawns for political purposes. So this is not a political podcast, but it's impossible to really discuss the immigration issue without getting into politics at least a little bit from a more spiritual background.

But I have found it so hard to have a conversation, even amongst brothers and sisters in Christ, when there's a political spectrum involved. So in your experience, how can we, as Christians, treat this issue with more grace, or treat each other with more grace when we may not agree?

We may, one side may want to emphasize enforcing the law more, the other side may want to emphasize showing love, compassion, mercy to the immigrant side. How can we all just get along, for lack of a better way of saying it?

The Kingdom Lens, the Cross, and the Immigrant Revival

Let's put on our kingdom lens. If you wake up in the morning and you're primarily a Republican or a Democrat, then we're going to have some issues. But if you wake up in the morning and you are first and foremost, a child of the living God, a benefactor of the gracious, vicarious, atoning work of Christ, finished work of Christ, then you will look at this differently.

I look at this primarily vertically. I'm going to go back to that cross being vertical and horizontal. We discussed for the past few minutes the horizontal. Let me talk to you about the vertical. What if I tell you that if we deport 20 million, which is impossible, we can't do it.

We don't have the manpower, the bandwidth, the inclination. We just can't do it. But hypothetically speaking, if we deport 20 million immigrants, we may very well be deporting the next great awakening.

Period.

We may be deporting the next great spiritual revival, the next Jesus movement. The fastest growing demographic coming to Christ as Lord and Savior emerged from the immigrant community. That's every study from Pew to Barna to Gallup.

This is it.

The immigrant community is embracing Jesus. When we just found out from Gallup, 81 of Americans now believe in God is a number down in the past 12 years.

But guess what?

This emerging demographic of immigrants are embracing the finished work of Christ. It's a beautiful thing to see. My point to you is the fastest growing demographic in the Southern Baptist, the Assemblies of God, the Church of God, Four Square, Christian Missionary Alliance, the Evangelical Church, the immigrant community.

The immigrant community. If not for the immigrant community, these major denominations would be in steep decline. Not my wording, by the way. This is actually the wording of people like Ronnie Floyd and other great leaders.

So there it is, my friends. Let's be careful. When we discuss this, let's deport them.

They came here illegally.

Well, these individuals may actually be the antidote to moral relativism and cultural decadence. They actually may be the new Spurgeons and Finneys and Westleys. Last names Rivera, Sanchez, and Miranda.

Nevertheless, they may be the carriers of an awakening that may help this nation in these troubled times. And that's what drives me. They love God, and there's a strong hunger for spiritual awakening and righteousness.

How to Learn More About Samuel Rodriguez and NHCLC

Well, Reverend Samuel, how can people learn a little bit more about you, your ministry, and both your political proposals and the spiritual background behind them?

NHCLC .org, NHCLC, National Hispanic Christian Leadership Conference, the acronym, or pastorsam .com. And you can, of course, Google not everything, and Google is accurate, and some of, you know, Google pages are full of hate and mischaracterizations.

Nevertheless, you'll find some, if you put Samuel Rodriguez in immigration reform, you'll discover some articles and the proposals that I submitted to the previous president. The previous president brought me in as a negotiator between the White House and Nancy Pelosi, to Speaker Pelosi.

So I was involved there as the go-to person, literally going from the White House to Congress, coming back the same day and negotiating a solution. And we were this far away until it was bamboozled by the Senate leadership.

So yes, pastorsam .com, NHCLC .org.

So Reverend Samuel, I truly appreciate your time today. Thank you for coming on the program. And we'll include links in the show notes at podcast .gotquestions .org, and also on the description field when this video goes live on YouTube, where people can learn more about you, the ministry God's calling you to, and even your political proposals.

Again, like we said earlier, this is not a political podcast, but at the same time, the issue of immigration is both a biblical, spiritual issue, but also a political one. So we couldn't help but touch on it.

I'm not here to propose anything politically, but from what I've read of your proposal, from what I've heard you present, it makes sense to me, both from a biblical perspective and a political perspective.

So thank you for giving me some further insights and for just sharing your passion. And it's exciting to see, and I would love to see our nation headed in the direction you're proposing on the immigration issue.

Thank you for having me, my friend. Honored to be with you.

This has been the Got Questions podcast with Reverend Samuel Rodriguez. Got questions? Rivalized answers? We'll be fine.