July 31, 2019 Show with Lee Dodd on “The Puritan Perspective On Subjective Christian Experience: Outpourings of God’s Love & Romans 5:5”

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Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century Gospel Minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the Church and the world today.

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth.

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We're listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this last day of July, July 31st, 2019.

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And I'm thrilled to have back on the program a guest who I loved interviewing the last time he was on.

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I believe it was one year ago today. I think it was July 31st of 2018, if I'm not mistaken, when my guest

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Lee Dodd was on the program. And this time, we are going to be discussing a topic that I believe is a very important topic.

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And it is a very common issue, one of the most common issues, I think, that arises in Christendom.

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And the issue is Christian, or should I say, subjective Christian experience.

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And today, we're specifically going to be talking about the Puritan perspective on subjective Christian experience and outpourings of God's love in Romans 5, verse 5.

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And we're also going to be announcing the 2019 Fellowship Conference New England in Portland, Maine.

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And my guest Lee Dodd is one of four pastors at Providence Chapel in Denton, Texas. It's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor Lee Dodd.

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Hey, thanks, Chris. Good to be with you, brother. Was I right that the last time you were on was one year ago exactly today?

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One year ago today. Wow, it's amazing that it's been that long. Yeah, I'll see you again in 2020.

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Well, hopefully we'll have you on again sooner than a year the next time. Before we go into the theme of our show today, the

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Puritan perspective on subjective Christian experience and outpouring of God's love in Romans 5, verse 5, tell us about Providence Chapel of Denton, Texas.

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Sure, brother, be glad to. And as a side note, you had said I was one of four pastors or elders in the church here in Denton, Texas.

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But as of August of last year, since you and I last had a program together, we have a fifth elder in the church.

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So I'm one of five marvelous brothers, one of which, Mack Tomlinson, is on your show, is a relatively frequent guest.

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So, yep, the church is located in Denton, Texas, is a Reformed and Baptistic church.

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And by God's grace, we were planted in the year 2000, and now 19 years later, the church is well established, continuing to grow, the saints

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I trust are maturing in the Lord. We have a baptismal Sunday coming up this

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Sunday, where we'll be baptizing two or three new converts. So the Lord is at work here in Denton, Texas, which is just about 30 minutes north of the

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Dallas -Fort Worth Metroplex. Great, and if anybody listening either lives near Denton, Texas, I know my brother,

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John, I would appreciate everybody praying that my brother, John Arnzen, visits

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Providence Chapel in Denton, Texas. My brother, John, is not a believer, and I have been praying that he visits

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Providence Chapel in Denton, because he only lives about 10 minutes away in Justin, Texas.

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But if anybody wants to visit Providence Chapel in Denton, Texas, if you live near there, or if you want to recommend it to family, friends, and loved ones who do live near Denton, or if you're vacationing near Denton, Texas, the website is

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ProvidenceDenton .org, and that's ProvidenceDenton, D -E -N -T -O -N .org,

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and hopefully you'll remember to announce that again later. Tell us about your blog,

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LeeDodd .com. What are the kinds of things that you typically blog about? Brother, that's funny you mention it, and I should have probably touched base with you beforehand.

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I don't really blog all that much. Don't really consider myself a blogger, but will occasionally, a double underline, occasionally post something on the blog, normally a piece of devotional content.

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I do manage and maintain a daily edification email list that is sent out to a couple hundred recipients where I'm either sharing some information from the

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Puritans or the Reformers or just men from church history, just edifying encouragements.

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And I'll occasionally write along those lines as well to email out, and then occasionally those things will find their way to the blog.

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But that is definitely not an active blog, nor an active part of the ministry

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God's given me. Well, if anybody wants to check that out, it's LeeDodd .com,

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correct? That is correct, yes. And we are discussing, as I said today, something that is a very common thing in Christendom, where you have people who use their subjective

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Christian experience as a guide to making vital decisions, as a guide to drive them into various beliefs.

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And I've met, I'm sure everybody listening has met many people professing to be

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Christian who discuss their subjective Christian experiences as if they are with certainty as reliable and as faithful and as true and as inerrant as the

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Bible itself. To give you one example, I won't mention this person's name, but there is a person

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I know very well who swears he is living in a way that pleases

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God, that he has nothing to really worry about in regard to his stance with God, because of the fact that about 40 years or more ago he had a vision of Jesus Christ picking him up in his arms and rocking this person to sleep like a baby and telling him that he was safe and telling him that he was a beloved child of God and all those kinds of comforting things.

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Of course, the fact that this was accompanied by an acid trip doesn't seem to cloud the reality of this event in his life.

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But why is it that you specifically wanted to discuss subjective

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Christian experiences and especially a Puritan perspective on this? Well, for a couple of reasons, but the main focus,

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I think, of our time together today will be on a more narrow reality within the realm of subjective

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Christian experience. And that would be really the heart of what Paul is getting to in Romans 5, verse 5, this reality of God's love being poured into our hearts through the

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Holy Spirit who has been given to us. Let me read that. I'm going to read from the New American Standard Bible, which of course is one of the sponsors of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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Hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the

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Holy Spirit who was given to us. Yes, amen.

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And so, brother, what has happened in recent decades, certainly in response to the rapidly growing charismatic movement birthed out of the 60s and 70s, has been a

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Reformed response that in some measure, in certain circles, has overreacted,

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I think. And the pendulum then has swung too far the other way to where people, even in our own

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Reformed camp, are very hesitant to discuss, talk about, think about, even reticent to experience anything that falls into that subjective category.

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Right? What we're hearing today is, let's focus on the objective truth, and that's right, and will always be right.

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But what is missed is that subjective experience in the life of a Christian is rooted in and flows out of the objective truth that we embrace, the objective realities of the gospel.

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So that's a lot of what I wanted to focus in on today in an effort to help the saints not be afraid of subjective experience and even pursue subjective experience.

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I'm reminded of Jacob in the Old Testament, wrestling there with the angel, and he says to the angel of the

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Lord, we understand the angel of the Lord to be a theophany, I will not let you go unless you bless me.

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And we can ask God for such blessings.

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And that's going to be the heart, I think, of our discussion today. Yes. Those of us who are

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Reformed, who have been known rightly for desiring precision in theological soundness and accuracy in biblical faithfulness, we have been also known for at times being anal retentive and being

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OCD or possessing OCD when it comes to theology as well.

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And sometimes that can make us overreact to things that have been abused by other

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Christians to the point where we are depriving ourselves or, in some cases, even teaching falsehoods when we are in overreaction to the errors of others.

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We run so far the other way that we create our own errors, don't we? Yeah, brother, we do.

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And I've been guilty of that in a variety of ways and I think the Reformed movement, and I'm so thankful for the

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Reformed resurgence, thankful to Banner of Truth, thankful to Dr.

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Lloyd -Jones, thankful to the numerous array of books that have come forth from the presses since the 50s and the

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Puritans chiefly among those books. But we don't need to be so on guard against all manner of subjectivity that we just throw the baby out with the bathwater.

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Right. I think that sometimes, out of fear of appearing to be charismatic, we have on occasion lessened or diminished the exuberance of joy and celebration in our worship services.

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That can be a problem when we are... Sometimes I think the critics of Reformed worship are correct.

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Sometimes, not all the time. But sometimes they're correct when they enter into our worship services and they get the vibe that they're at a funeral service.

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And when it comes to the demonic realm, because we believe prior to the regeneration of a human that that person, as are all people, whether they are elect or reprobate, we are born totally depraved.

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And because of that, sometimes we under -emphasize the fact that there is a demonic realm.

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We have a common thought process that will just blame everything on the sinner.

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And of course, I'm not trying to remove the responsibility of sinners. But in a human level, thinking, well, people are totally depraved and bad enough on their own.

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They don't need any influence of the devil to commit wicked acts and so on.

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And there is truth in that. But sometimes because of that view of total depravity, people have abused it and wind up acting as if the demonic realm doesn't exist.

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Would you also agree with that? Yes, brother. Even though they wouldn't say that in writing,

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I don't believe the demonic realm exists. I'm just saying that many reformed people act that way. That's right.

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So practically, when their knowledge and understanding is employed in their living, you're right.

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It doesn't appear that they really recognize or acknowledge the spiritual realm and that it exists.

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So tell us something about when you say the Puritan perspective on subjective

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Christian experience. The Puritans, although there was a lot that they held in common, typically, they're not a monolithic group.

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I mean, you have Richard Baxter, for instance, who wasn't even a Calvinist. A rare Puritan indeed, but you have differences amongst the

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Puritans. Are there any specific Puritans that you are referring to when you are getting an idea of the

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Puritan perspective on subjective Christian experience? Yes. The Puritans that I'll be referring to really are the

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Puritans that I've read over the years, but some of the most well -known men would really fall into this camp of not only preaching about this love of God being poured into the heart and subjective

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Christian experience, but they lived their lives in such a way to where it was an evident reality, and people that knew them saw this about them and admired this in them.

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So men like John Flavel, of course Samuel Rutherford, whose letters, for those that haven't read them, they read like some of the most intimate material one could read, and yet it's preeminently his adoring of our

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God and Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, and yet the language that he uses reads much like the

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Song of Solomon, and it's rather beautiful. But John Owen, Richard Sibbes, some of the chief men that we would be acquainted with among the

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Puritans. So, before perhaps we should discuss the positive aspects about subjective

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Christian experience, I've already mentioned some negative things. Perhaps you should yourself mention a few negative things about this that we should be cautious about, and then we'll move on to the more positive aspects of subjective

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Christian experience that you are discussing, that you're highlighting, I should say, that we perhaps are depriving ourselves of enjoying or having any notion of God being involved in these things personally, that they are possessing real meaning and not driving us to a false conclusion about something or causing us to make a wrong decision about something.

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But if you could, before we go into the positive end of subjective Christian experience, why don't you mention some things to be cautious about?

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I'd be glad to. And really, I think the ultimate safeguard,

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Chris, in this area, when we're talking about the dangers, the negatives, the abuses, would be that these things happen when subjective experience becomes detached from the objective truth of Scripture.

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And if that takes place, then all manner of subjective experience can take place and it not have any meaning or any positive impact.

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It can be demonic activity, the counterfeit work of Satan. It can be hormonal.

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It could be all sorts of things in and of ourselves. The safeguard to ensuring that subjective experience in the

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Christian's life is true, genuine, and fruitful is that it will always be rooted in the objective realities of the

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Gospel, that it will always be rooted in Scripture. So, obviously, some of the abuses would be much of what we see in the hyper -charismatic arena and even things that we see in the nominally charismatic arena.

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These senses, in terms of personal guidance of the

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Holy Spirit, these feelings that people talk about in so much talk,

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Chris, and I know you hear it as well, about feelings, and yet it's detached from or void of Biblical truth.

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So that would be, to me, one of the main abuses in our day. I would also add to that something that is very rampant today amongst our

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Roman Catholic family members, loved ones, friends and neighbors.

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The so -called or alleged supernatural experiences that have been claimed by those who are the key figures in Marian apparitions.

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I remember a friend of mine who is a Roman Catholic who used to attend nearly all of the

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Roman Catholic debates that I orchestrated with my friend Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries who is the

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Reformed Baptist theologian that was involved in these debates and also more recently

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Dr. Tony Costa of Toronto Baptist Seminary who has also been involved in debates that I have orchestrated.

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I have a friend who, one of the anchors to him, one of the chief things that he believed that led him to be certain that the

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Roman Catholic Church was the true Church were apparitions such as those in Fatima, and I remember he was always emphatic with me about this because he would say how on earth could this not be truly the

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Blessed Virgin or those apparitions because she was saying true and good and wonderful things about Jesus as if the devil never mixes truth with error and that's what

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I had to remind him I was saying to him that's really absurd to think that just because an apparition is saying some true and good things about Jesus that you're going to believe everything else that this apparition allegedly said

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I mean is the devil that stupid that he would only say grotesque and horrible things he's obviously deceiving people as an angel of light and therefore he's going to trick people who love

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Christ or who claim to love Christ and so he just refused to believe that the apparitions at Fatima and some of the other apparitions were false even though it's interesting you'll have

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Catholics who will say that there's no way that Fatima is a false apparition and yet some of them especially the more conservative

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Catholics who are involved in the traditional

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Latin right wing of Catholicism they will totally reject the apparitions at Medjugorje as satanic even so at least they understand that Mary can be a there can be a masquerading demonic spirit that appears to be

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Mary or claims to be Mary at least they're acknowledging that can happen and then you have on the more silly realm of Roman Catholics who see

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Jesus and Mary maybe perhaps more often Mary in cloud formations in bagels in potato chips in water stains on buildings

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I remember when I was visiting Clearwater Florida there was a building that became a shrine to Mary when

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Catholics purchased this commercial office building because there was tinted windows on this building very tall building and the film or whatever material that was used to tint the windows it had when the lawn sprinklers were something went wrong with the lawn sprinklers and they were spraying on the windows for a prolonged period of time they created a bizarre looking stain on the windows and these

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Catholics were convinced this was an image of the Blessed Mother that miraculously appeared there and I always wonder why just because something may vaguely look like a hooded figure that it's got to be

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Mary I mean why can't this be the Angel of Death? But I just wanted to say that because there are many

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Catholics that I know personally that I've met personally who still they will text me or email me photographs of these things of clouds that they think look like Jesus or Mary trees the leaf formations on the trees they'll swear is an image of Mary or Jesus and this is somehow miraculous so these things are these things can be heretically superstitious

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I guess all superstition is heretical and dangerous when it really comes to become an idolatrous thing for these people

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No doubt about it Well let's move on now to what you consider some good subjective

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Christian experiences give us examples of that and how the

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Puritans specifically spoke of these things and how we are to guide our lives when we are faced with these subjective experiences

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Well ideally brother I'd like to camp out together as we have time today in Romans 5 .5

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and maybe to initiate this segment I will begin with a quote from the

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Puritan John Flavel who was speaking about Romans 5 .5 and he said ecstasy and delight are essential to the believer's soul and they promote sanctification we were not meant to live without spiritual exhilaration and the

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Christian who goes for a long time without the experience of heartwarming will soon find himself tempted to have his emotions satisfied from earthly things and not as he ought from the spirit of God the soul is so constituted that it craves fulfillment from things outside itself and will embrace earthly joys for satisfaction when it cannot reach spiritual ones the believer is in spiritual danger if he allows himself to go for any length of time without tasting the love of Christ and savoring the felt comforts of the

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Savior's presence so how in everyday life of a

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Christian would this apply what specifically can you give us some examples of a subjective experience that a

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Christian may encounter that he should not readily or he should not immediately or automatically dismiss as something that doesn't mean anything he should take no comfort in that tell us some of the good ways that God comforts his children through these subjective experiences sure

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I would love to do just that and I want to say that the thrust of what

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I am commending to myself to you to the audience today is subjective

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Christian experience that is rooted in the Scriptures and that's why if we're simply to focus on Romans 5 verse 5 and the outpourings of God's love into our heart then we can rest assured that this is not something extra biblical not something that is untethered from Christian doctrine not something that is sloppy or man -made but something that is commended to us by the

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Apostle Paul in the epistle to the church at Rome so this kind of experience again rooted in objective truth is an experience the believer has when

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God manifests himself to the individual believer and shows that believer the great love that he has for him as a son or a or a son or a daughter or or or a son or or a son or a daughter or a or a daughter or a son or or or or or or or or or or or or or or or or or or or or or or or or or or or or or or or or or or or or or or or or or or or or inerrant

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Welcome back. This is Chris Arns, and if you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours with a little less than 90 minutes to go is

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Pastor Lee Dodd, one of five pastors at Providence Chapel in Denton, Texas.

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We are discussing the Puritan perspective on subjective Christian experience, outpourings of God's love, from Romans chapter 5, verse 5.

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And before we go back into this discussion, Pastor Lee, I want to make sure that you discuss a little bit about the

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Fellowship Conference New England in Portland, Maine, that's coming up this week, actually. It's going to be held from the 1st through the 3rd of August.

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That's tomorrow through Saturday at the Deering Center Community Church in Portland, Maine. Why don't you tell our listeners more about this conference where you are on the roster?

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I would be glad to. This is a conference that I've had long involvement in, though this will be the first year

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I will be preaching in the conference. So our church here in Denton, Texas, Providence Chapel, was a part of the founding of this conference now,

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I think about seven years ago or so. And we recognized that there was a need in the

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New England states for a doctrinally sound conference for believers to enjoy fellowship, to sit under faithful preaching, and really to allow the

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Lord to make connections between saints in different areas. Many saints in the

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New England states, not even near a good doctrinally sound church.

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So we wanted to see the Lord work in birthing maybe church plants and relationships that would last, and we wanted it to be an encouragement to the saints in those

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New England states. So here we are, 2019, and this is the

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Fellowship Conference New England, and it is continuing to do exactly what we had hoped it would do.

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It's an encouraging time. There's preaching that begins Thursday evening, tomorrow.

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I will actually fly out from Texas to Boston and then head north in a rental car tomorrow morning.

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But preaching begins Thursday, and the conference wraps up Saturday afternoon,

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August 3rd. There's plenty of time for fellowships, relationship building, getting to meet other saints from different New England states.

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Many states will be represented there at the conference, but it's truly a blessing for those who can attend.

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Great, and if anybody wants more details on registering or attending Fellowship Conference New England, starting tomorrow through Saturday, August 1st through the 3rd, at the

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Deering Center Community Church in Portland, Maine, go to fellowshipconferencenewengland .com.

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Fellowshipconferencenewengland .com. Before I have you return, I'll have you pick up where we left off, and then

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I'll take our listener question. We have a first -time listener question from Nigeria, Africa.

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So before we go into his question, why don't you pick up where you left off before the break in regard to Romans 5 .5,

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and I was asking you if you could possibly give us some idea of what kind of subjective

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Christian experience that you're discussing, because obviously there is a rulebook here that you are saying it can't be detached from truths of Scripture, but there's still, if it's subjective, there is a detachment of some kind.

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So if you could pick up where you left off and give me a better idea of where you're coming from. Yes, so to really try to capture the context of Romans 5, the

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Apostle Paul has been, argument after argument, showing believers at Rome why they can be assured of their salvation.

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In verse 1, he speaks of the objective peace with God that we have being justified by faith.

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And he goes on to really just give reason after reason after reason,

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I think, crescendoing in a sense in verses 6 -11, where Paul magnifies the love of God for ungodly sinners, so much so that Christ died for such as them.

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And what he's doing, he's magnifying the love of God and taking it to the highest high, where God shows

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His love for us, and that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. While we were weak, while we were ungodly, while we were sinners, at the right time

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Christ died for us. So there is the objective reality of the

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Gospel and the great assurance that God loves us, and that assurance is rooted in objective truth.

45:40

Yet in the midst of that context, we have verse 5. And Paul, very systematically, logically, is going to make a connection for us that is so helpful.

45:54

We must glory in, rejoice in, find assurance in the objective reality of God's loving us, even while we were sinners.

46:06

And yet, there is a subjective experiencing of that love that Paul describes in Romans 5 -5, and he describes it as God's love being poured into our hearts.

46:22

Other verses come to mind. In John 14 -21, where Jesus says,

46:28

I will love them and manifest myself to them. But Chris, this is rooted in the objective truth, but it is a subjective experience that is birthed from these objective realities.

46:44

And it is personal, it is experiential, it is full of feeling. It is the experience of God's love being poured out into our heart.

46:57

Okay, let me go to somebody whose name, I'm sorry, I'm no doubt going to mispronounce it, our

47:04

Nigerian listener, Deji Yesufu, perhaps he can email me and let me know if I'm pronouncing his name correctly.

47:12

It's D -E -J -I -Y -E -S -U -F -U, Nigeria, Africa.

47:19

He says, this is my first time listening live to your program, and it is such a joy to join in with you today.

47:27

My question to your guest is, in recent times, I got to understand cessationism, and having examined this theological position,

47:37

I affirm today that I am a cessationist. It is correct to say that in line with cessationism and the sufficiency of scriptures,

47:48

God no longer speaks to Christians today outside of scriptures, or outside scriptures.

47:55

Or better still, when can a Christian confidently say that God has spoken to him, and he emphasizes the word spoken, to him or her in a subjective manner?

48:11

That's a great, great question, Chris. And I think what I want to do in response is read the testimony of one that we may all be familiar with, and there are many more that I could share.

48:26

Should time allow, I'll share more, but I want to share one in response from Sarah Edwards, a wife of Jonathan Edwards, really at the end of the

48:41

Puritan era, maybe the last of the American Puritans.

48:48

Sarah Edwards, in her diary, says this, I cannot find language to express how certain this appeared.

48:58

My safety and happiness and internal enjoyment of God's immutable love seemed as durable and unchangeable as God himself.

49:08

Melted and overcome by the sweetness of this assurance, I fell into a great flow of tears and could not forbear weeping aloud.

49:18

It appeared certain to me that God was my Father and Christ my

49:23

Lord and Savior, that he was mine and I his. And she goes on, entry after entry, over the course of her adult years, brother, to share of these experiences.

49:37

Maybe I'll read others as the show progresses. But this is the experience of God's love in what probably today would be considered an extraordinary measure.

49:50

I'm trying to commend to your listeners that it ought not to be such a rare and extraordinary thing that the

49:58

Christian ought to desire these subjective experiences of God's love more and more regularly because they encourage us in our sanctification, in our perseverance.

50:14

This is not necessarily a word of prophecy at all, so the language of the questioner has to do with God speaking, rather this is

50:24

God manifesting his presence in such a way to where the believer is engulfed in the love of God, the warm presence of their

50:35

Savior, and so encouraged and so moved and so stirred by it.

50:42

Well, thank you, our dear brother, and I'm assuming that's a dear brother, in Nigeria.

50:48

Thank you very much for your excellent question, and I hope that you continue to send in questions to Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio.

50:56

We look forward to hearing from you again. We have Bobby in Hartsdale, New York, who has a question.

51:03

I am having a hard time distinguishing between what you are saying and how a

51:09

Mormon might describe his burning in the bosom after reading the Book of Mormon, or any other person in a false religion that speaks about the warm embrace of Christ that they are feeling, and other words to that effect.

51:23

How can we know that a person is truly a Christian when they describe these experiences when we also know that many false religions report the same experiences?

51:36

So in the question, he's really answered the question when he recognizes that they are false religions.

51:44

So, Chris, you remember I said the ultimate safeguard here is that any subjective experience the

51:52

Christian has, it must be tethered to, rooted in, the objective truth of Scripture.

52:00

So when we're evangelizing a Mormon, and they say, well, I believe that the

52:06

Book of Mormon is the Word of God on par with the King James Bible, and I know because when

52:14

I was reading it, there was a burning in my bosom. We can reject that as genuine experience, because that experience is not rooted in the objective truths of the

52:27

Gospel. So I take it that you're specifically talking about, not necessarily occurrences, but experiences that involve feelings, emotion, and so on, that we should not write off automatically or minimalize them, minimalize their importance, when we are

52:56

Christians who are following Christ, are reading His Word, are repenting of sin, and so on, and we should be taking these as gifts, these experiences.

53:08

Because you're not really speaking, necessarily, about occurrences.

53:14

Let me give you an example that's a subjective occurrence.

53:20

A person that I know and love died, and there was a question mark on what this individual, this man, a very close person in my life, believed about the

53:37

Gospel. He made frequent references to how much he loved Christ and so on, but there was also some extreme ecumenism involved in his belief system, where those outside the

53:49

Christian faith could receive salvation. But he would go back and forth on those kinds of things.

53:56

But after he died, I was told a booklet that he was writing himself, a journal was found, where he was writing how to share our faith in Christ with strangers, and things like that that gave me more confidence, more hope that that person was indeed born again.

54:18

Now is this not what you're talking about today, or does this have some element in what you're talking about today?

54:24

That's a subjective occurrence. In other words,

54:30

I can't say, well, this proves it emphatically, without a doubt, that person saved. I can't say that.

54:36

But should I take hope in that? Should I use that as a sign that I can say, God has possibly given me this sign that this person is in eternity with Christ?

54:48

Yes. I think you could take comfort and have hope in that, though that hope will be proven out when you arrive in heaven and find him there or not there.

55:04

Really, what the focus here is in our discussion is not even so much, how do

55:11

I judge the fruit in another believer, or professing believer, or unbeliever that's really involved in some crazy things, but rather I'm commending to your audience a personal, satisfying, subjective relating to their

55:33

Savior, all of which is rooted in the objective realities of the Gospel. So we want to be those that can say,

55:41

Chris, I know God loves me. And we want to be those, Chris, that can say,

55:47

I feel that God loves me. I'm reminded of Paul in Galatians 2 .20,

55:53

who says, Christ who loved me and gave himself for me.

56:01

In fact, if you could pick up right on that text when we return, because we have to go to our midway break right now. This is a longer than normal break.

56:08

It's our break that Grace Life Radio, 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us because they have to localize

56:15

Iron Trip and Zion Radio to Lake City, Florida, and therefore they use this time to air their own public service announcements and commercials, while we air our globally heard commercials of our own that you will be hearing if you live outside of Lake City, Florida.

56:31

And we ask of you to use this time wisely. Please write down the information provided by our advertisers so that you can frequently and successfully patronize them, because that will further ensure that we remain on the air longer, because our advertisers will want to continue to support us, obviously, if they are getting results.

56:50

But also use this time to send in questions to Lee Dodd about the Puritan perspective on Subjective Christian Experience.

56:56

Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages.

57:15

I'm James White of Alpha Omega Ministries, and my friend Chris Arnson and I are excited to be attending another

57:20

G3 conference together in Atlanta, Georgia, Thursday, January 16th through Saturday, January 18th, on a theme that is vitally important to all of us,

57:29

Worship Matters. I'll be on the speaking lineup with Eric Thomas, Joel Beeky, Paul Washer, Steve Lawson, Phil Johnson, Tom Askell, Votie Balcom, and the world -renowned preacher, teacher, and author

57:40

John MacArthur. A fascinating new addition to the roster is Kosti Hinn, nephew of the notorious false teacher

57:47

Benny Hinn. Kosti has repented of the word -faith heresies of his youth and is now a

57:52

Reformed Baptist pastor and cessationist in California. Come join me and Chris Arnson at G3 2020,

57:59

January 16th through the 18th in Atlanta by registering at g3conference .com.

58:05

That's g3conference .com. My Bible of Choice.

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Iron Sharpens Iron podcast. I consider Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity. He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions while always defending the key doctrines of the

01:02:00

Christian faith. I've always been happy to point people to this podcast knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the internet where folk won't be led astray.

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I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide. This is a day of great spiritual compromise and yet God has raised

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Chris up for just such a time and knowing this, it's up to us as members of the body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances.

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I'm pleased to do so and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting

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Iron Sharpens Iron financially. Would you consider sending either a one -time gift or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry?

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I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would. All the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com

01:02:47

where you can click support. That's ironsharpensironradio .com. Welcome back.

01:02:57

This is Chris Arnzen and if you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours with about an hour to go is

01:03:05

Lee Dodd. He is one of five pastors at Providence Chapel in Denton, Texas. We are discussing the

01:03:11

Puritan perspective on subjective Christian experience, outpourings of God's love, and Romans chapter 5 verse 5.

01:03:20

We're also promoting the Fellowship Conference New England in Portland, Maine which begins tomorrow

01:03:26

Thursday the 1st of August through Saturday the 3rd of August and you'll be hearing more about that in just a moment.

01:03:34

Before I return to my discussion with Pastor Lee, let me start off with another reminder about Fellowship Conference New England.

01:03:44

This is a conference that always features wonderful speakers, most of whom

01:03:51

I have interviewed, in fact, this year starting tomorrow through Saturday.

01:03:57

I have interviewed all of the men who are on the lineup and I highly recommend each and every one of them.

01:04:03

The first on the roster is Pastor Anthony Methenia, a pastor of Christ Church in Radford, Virginia.

01:04:12

He is also the pastor of Pole Washer and Pastor Mac Tomlinson, who many of you may recall also being interviewed on Iron Trip and Zion Radio, he is a dear friend, one of the five pastors along with Lee Dodd of Providence Chapel in Denton, Texas.

01:04:29

Pastor Mac is also a generous financial supporter of Iron Trip and Zion Radio, really a wonderful brother in Christ and an author.

01:04:40

I just look forward to every opportunity that I have to interview Pastor Mac, the

01:04:45

Fellowship with him, and just to promote whatever he is doing to further spread the gospel.

01:04:51

Our guest today, Pastor Lee Dodd, is one of those speakers on the roster at the conference.

01:04:59

Pastor Nathan Pickowitz is also on the roster, who I have interviewed a number of times, I just recently interviewed him, and he is an author and pastor of Harvest Bible Church in Gilmonton Ironworks, New Hampshire.

01:05:13

You also are hearing him promote the New American Standard Bible in those ads for the publishers of the

01:05:20

NASB, and we thank God for the NASB and their faithful support of Iron Trip and Zion Radio ever since we launched.

01:05:27

But this conference is a unique conference in that there is never a central theme that they pick for the conference.

01:05:35

Every pastor just unburdens his heart with what they most want their audience to hear that day or during those days of the conference.

01:05:45

So that makes it an unusual conference and more diverse, perhaps.

01:05:51

If you want more information about this conference, go to fellowshipconferencenewengland .com,

01:05:58

fellowshipconferencenewengland .com. Then coming up, it's actually, it's overlapping the conference that we just heard about.

01:06:08

This is an event in Hockley, Texas, where my friend

01:06:14

Dr. Tony Costa will be speaking at the Church at Friendship in Hockley, Texas.

01:06:19

This is a conference of the Providence Theological Institute, and it starts on Friday, the 2nd of August, and continues through Sunday, the 4th of August.

01:06:33

This is on the opposite end of the country than the other conference I just mentioned, which is in Maine.

01:06:38

This is in Hockley, Texas, and the themes included at this conference, where Dr. Tony Costa will be speaking, are the meaninglessness of life without God, the authority and inerrancy of Scripture, the

01:06:53

Promised Land and the New Covenant, and the Glorious New Covenant and more.

01:06:59

If you want more details on this conference, you can either call the Church at Friendship in Hockley, Texas at 832 -349 -5342, that's 832 -349 -5342, or you can go to the website of churchatfriendship .org,

01:07:17

churchatfriendship .org, and you can click on the events, and you will have all the details that you need there.

01:07:27

Also coming up in September, which will be here before you know it, is a debate being conducted by my friend

01:07:37

Pastor Bruce Bennett of the Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York.

01:07:43

Pastor Bruce is debating a Roman Catholic apologist named Matthew Luke Broderick, and it's being held

01:07:50

Saturday, September 7th at 6 .30pm at the Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York.

01:07:56

The theme of the debate is, is the Pope, or should I say, I'm sorry, is the Office of Pope Biblical?

01:08:03

Is the Office of Pope Biblical? And if you want to attend this event, which is free of charge, either go to their website wotchurch .com,

01:08:15

wotchurch .com, which stands for wordoftruthchurch .com, wotchurch .com,

01:08:22

or call them at 631 -806 -0614, 631 -806 -0614.

01:08:31

Then in December, I am going to be packing up my bags and heading back to my stomping grounds, my old stomping grounds,

01:08:37

New York City, to the Foundations Conference in Manhattan, a conference of sermonaudio .com,

01:08:45

Thursday and Friday, December 19th and 20th, and what better time of year to go to New York City than during the

01:08:50

Christmas season. I can't wait. And this is a conference for men in ministry leadership only.

01:08:58

They can only fit less than 200 people in this venue, so they have limited the guests or the attendees to men in ministry leadership.

01:09:09

The speakers include Dr. Stephen J. Lawson, Paul Washer, Jeff Thomas, Rev. Armin Tomasian, Richard Caldwell Jr.,

01:09:17

and Andrew Quigley. If you would like to attend with me, December 19th and 20th,

01:09:22

Thursday and Friday, December 19th and 20th at the Foundations Conference, go to thefoundationsconference .com,

01:09:31

thefoundationsconference .com. Then I'm going to be packing up my bags and heading down south again to Atlanta, Georgia, more specifically

01:09:40

College Park, Georgia, a suburb of Atlanta, for the G3 Conference, which stands for Gospel, Grace, and Glory.

01:09:48

And that's going to be Thursday, January 16th through Saturday, January 18th. And the theme this

01:09:54

January is Worship Matters. And I'm so glad that I just last night got off the phone with my friend

01:10:03

Kosti Hinn, who is on the roster at the G3 Conference. He is going to be returning to Iron Trip and Zion Radio as a guest to promote this event.

01:10:13

And I'm so delighted he is. That's going to be coming up in September.

01:10:20

And we will give you more details on the exact date as soon as possible.

01:10:27

Actually, wait a minute. No, it's going to be in August. I'm sorry. He's going to be on the show, God willing,

01:10:32

August 26th, Monday, August 26th. But Kosti Hinn is the nephew of notorious charlatan and heretic

01:10:42

Benny Hinn. And Kosti doesn't mind me saying that because Kosti has repented of the word of faith heresies he was raised in.

01:10:49

And he spends much of his time outside of his own pulpit warning people about the deceptive, dangerous, deadly, and damning lies of the word of faith movement, including those of his own uncle, who he has publicly said on this show and other places that he knows for a fact that his uncle is not only just a deceived individual who is deceiving others, he is a conscious charlatan.

01:11:19

So, Kosti Hinn will be on this roster. So will Darrell Bernard Harrison, a new addition to the

01:11:25

Grace to You ministry of John MacArthur. David Miller, who is a really wonderful old school preacher.

01:11:32

Derek Thomas, who is a name definitely not unfamiliar to most of the

01:11:41

Reformed listeners of the Iron Trip and Zion Radio audience because of his books that he has written and also because of his preaching and teaching.

01:11:49

My friend Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries is going to be on the roster. Dr. Joel Beeke, the president of Puritan Reform Theological Seminary, also an old friend going back to the 1990s.

01:12:03

Once again, we have Stephen J. Lawson and Paul Washer. They're on this roster as well. Phil Johnson, the executive director of John MacArthur's ministry,

01:12:12

Grace to You. Stephen J. Nichols, the president of Reformation Bible College, the college founded by the late

01:12:19

R .C. Sproul and Ligonier Ministries. Todd Friel of Wretched TV and Wretched Radio is on the roster.

01:12:25

Dr. Tom Askell, the executive director of Founders Ministries, the Calvinistic ministry within the

01:12:31

Southern Baptist Convention. Votie Baucom, another one of the most powerful preachers alive today and more. And as you already perhaps heard,

01:12:39

John MacArthur, one of my modern day heroes, has been added to the roster. I am so excited about that because I have never been in the same building with John MacArthur when he is preaching and teaching.

01:12:51

So I am just so ecstatic about this. If you want to join me at the G3 Conference, go to g3conference .com,

01:12:57

g3conference .com and register to not only attend, but if you are a business owner or you run a power church organization or you are having an event of some kind and you want to publicize it to the body of Christ, especially to Christians who are going to be no doubt predominantly theologically reformed, well, why don't you register for an exhibitor's booth, just like I will be manning, and do so while there is still room.

01:13:25

Because with John MacArthur added to the lineup, I have a feeling they are going to run out of room real fast. Go to g3conference .com,

01:13:31

g3conference .com and register for not only attending, but if it applies to you, an exhibitor's booth. I hope that your booth is near mine.

01:13:40

And just remember, it is Thursday through Saturday, January 16th through the 18th in College Park, Georgia at the

01:13:48

Georgia International Convention Center. And last but not least, if you love my show, you don't want it to disappear from the airwaves.

01:13:56

You love sharing the free downloadable mp3s with family, friends, and loved ones. You love hearing the guests and the topics on the show that sometimes are never heard anywhere else.

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Well, please, if you love the show, please, I'm begging you to help us remain on the air through your generous financial support.

01:14:30

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01:14:36

Go to ironsharpensironradio .com, ironsharpensironradio .com, click support, then click, click to donate now.

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click support, then click, click to donate now. That is if you want us to stay around. And I'm assuming if you're listening, you want us to stay around.

01:15:45

Remember, you could also advertise with us. Send me an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com and put advertising in the subject line.

01:15:51

We would love to help you launch an ad campaign if indeed you're promoting something that is compatible with what we believe.

01:15:57

You don't have to believe identically with what we are teaching and proclaiming here on ironsharpensironradio .com,

01:16:04

but you do need to be promoting something that's compatible at least with what we believe. And of course, if you are not a member of a

01:16:11

Bible -believing church and you're not even prayerfully looking for one, you are living in rebellion against God.

01:16:16

So if you need help finding a church, whether to join if you are not a member of a local church near you or where you're going on vacation, you need a church to visit while you're on vacation, or you need a church to help out your family, friends, and loved ones who live in different parts of the world.

01:16:36

I have already helped a number of people all over the world find churches that they have joined or visited while on vacation or refer to their family in the ironsharpensironradio audience.

01:16:47

I can help you too, God willing, and I have lists of biblically faithful churches all over the world to help me do that.

01:16:52

So send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com and put I need a church home in the subject line.

01:16:58

That is also the email address where you can send in a question to Lee Dodd. That's chrisarnson at gmail .com.

01:17:06

If you just tuned us in, we are discussing the Puritan perspective on subjective Christian experience, outpourings of God's love, and Romans chapter 5 verse 5.

01:17:18

And I interrupted you before we went to our midway break, Pastor Lee, so if you could pick up where we left off.

01:17:25

Yeah, Brother, I had mentioned Galatians 2 .20, which Paul ends that verse with this statement of speaking of Christ who loved me and gave himself to me.

01:17:39

And what I want to commend to the saints everywhere is that salvation is personal, and the

01:17:49

Christian life is experiential. It is not simply factual and embracing mentally, logically, these propositional truths.

01:18:03

It is experiential. Jesus Christ is a person. Our holy

01:18:08

God, triune in being, is a person to be related to.

01:18:14

And that, I think, is what Paul is expressing there when he says, who loved me and gave himself for me.

01:18:22

We need more of that in the Reformed circles. Yes, we do.

01:18:29

And we have Susan Margaret in Dauphin County, Pennsylvania.

01:18:38

She says, or asks, how can we be sure that when we are experiencing joy and experiencing peace of mind and heart, that this is not something subjective that is a trick of Satan?

01:18:56

Well, Satan doesn't relish in the objective realities of the gospel, does he?

01:19:03

He despises the gospel of grace. He despises the preeminence of Christ who laid down his life for sinful men.

01:19:15

So, any experience that is separated from these realities that ground it to the

01:19:24

Christian life and true experience, anything that is devoid of that truth, that basis, may well be something of Satan, a counterfeit, may well be something rooted in hormones or the pizza you ate last night.

01:19:41

That is not what we're commending today. We are commending the personal experience of Jesus Christ with the believer.

01:19:51

Chris, I've been married 22 years this May, and I relate to my wife experientially.

01:19:59

I can tell you all about her. I can describe her and the way she looks, her personality, why

01:20:05

I enjoy being married to her and have for 22 years. But when I am with her, it is wonderful.

01:20:14

This is the kind of fellowship or communion with God that the believer should regularly be experiencing.

01:20:22

This is John Owen, the second volume of that 16 -volume set titled, Communion with God, and he is commending to the saints.

01:20:30

Here is how you commune with God the Father. Here is how you commune with the Lord Jesus Christ, the

01:20:35

Divine Son, and here is how you commune with the Holy Spirit. 2 Corinthians 13, 14 is what that entire book is based off of, and that's what

01:20:46

I'm commending. Actual experience with God that is felt and emotional and warm, but rooted in the truth of the

01:20:57

Gospel. We have Murray from Kinross, Scotland, who has a question for you.

01:21:06

And let's see here, half of the email is being obscured at this moment.

01:21:15

Let me repeat our email address while I am trying to expand this email so I can see the whole thing.

01:21:21

It's chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com if you also want to send in a question for our guest,

01:21:28

Lee Dodd. We have Murray from Kinross, Scotland, asking, as well as having experienced occasions where I feel assured and reassured of God's love for me in Christ, I've also experienced times of feeling overcome with sheer greatness or godness of God, and my own smallness by comparison.

01:21:58

Some have referred to this as the goose pimple effect. I'm wondering if this same kind of experience is what you and the

01:22:08

Puritans would consider to be a Romans 5 -5 experience.

01:22:14

And I'll ask a second question after you answer the first. Yeah, Brother, I would say it surely sounds like it.

01:22:25

It surely sounds like it. Um, I am not here to say this is exactly what your subjective experience should look like, but I am here to say that those who are walking with Christ, they ought to be those who are experiencing

01:22:45

His presence, His love, being overwhelmed with His greatness and grandeur.

01:22:51

Um, not just talking about it, not just sitting under biblical preaching that is expositing those realities to us, but experiencing it, relishing in it, delighting in it, having actual joy in it.

01:23:10

And that could look very different amongst believers.

01:23:18

Okay, well thank you. Oh, well, I forgot to ask Murray's second question. I'm conscious that there are some who feel that they have had no conversion experience, but will often use language such as,

01:23:31

I can't remember a time when I've never believed. I'm wondering if those whose emotions have never been broken down by a conversion experience are less likely to be aware of subsequent subjective

01:23:45

Christian experience. Do you want me to read that again? Because I'm not 100 % sure what Murray means by this.

01:23:50

Or do you understand? I think I may be following him, but it would be helpful for you to read that again,

01:23:58

Chris. I'm conscious that there are some who feel that they have had no conversion experience, but will often use language such as,

01:24:09

I can't remember a time when I've never believed. Now, before I move on with the rest of this question,

01:24:18

I have had many conversations with especially Pato Baptists, but also,

01:24:24

I guess, Baptists who are raised in Christian homes, who say, if you ask them, can you tell me when you were saved?

01:24:32

They'll say, no, not really, because I just don't remember ever denying Christ. I know

01:24:37

I'm a sinner and need a Savior, and needed a Savior, and had obviously at some point that I'm unaware of a regeneration experience.

01:24:48

But all of my memory informs me that as long as I had a consciousness of God, I believed in Him and loved

01:25:01

Him and followed Him. So that's, I guess, basically what he is referring to. I don't know completely if that's the case, because he says they have had no conversion experience, but maybe he's specifically talking about like a crisis experience, something profound and dramatic, but I'm assuming he believes these people are assured they were converted.

01:25:25

But anyway, the second part of his question says, I'm wondering if those whose emotions have never been broken down by a conversion experience are less likely to be aware of a subsequent subjective

01:25:40

Christian experience. So if you could take that and just run with it however you think he meant it.

01:25:46

Yeah, I think I'm hearing him right, and I think I would agree with his assessment.

01:25:53

To me, it maybe is more of an assessment than a question. And like you,

01:26:00

Chris, I have encountered many in pastoral ministry that can't really point to a moment in time, a specific conversion experience.

01:26:09

And really with the modern day, and I trust, beneficial focus on conversion, repentance and faith in the

01:26:22

Lord Jesus Christ, I think in the midst of that, there has been a bit of wrong looking to a conversion experience.

01:26:36

So much so that it can stalemate people and they will continue to struggle with assurance because they haven't yet had this powerful experience.

01:26:49

And so while the emphasis is good, what is good can oftentimes produce a little bit of trouble.

01:26:56

And this is one of the areas, I think, of trouble or confusion where people are expecting, looking for, not having any assurance until they have this conversion experience.

01:27:10

Yet, the assessment of the gentleman asking the question, I think is valid.

01:27:16

Because there are those that come into the faith quietly without this powerful conversion experience or this kind of night and day transformation, like the drug dealer that gets converted and now he loves

01:27:34

Jesus. People that come into the faith more quietly.

01:27:40

Some come in like a storm, some come in like mist on a cool day.

01:27:47

Those that come in quietly, I think, are prone to not expect or long for these kinds of subjective experiences.

01:28:02

Because it wasn't made known to them early in their faith, because likely they're not hearing much about this from the pulpit, they can kind of wade in shallower waters in terms of subjective experience, not expecting it, not hoping for it, not asking the

01:28:21

Lord for it. Yes, and I have had friends or acquaintances that I've had to rebuke in love for different reasons.

01:28:37

One group would be those who were raised in Christian homes, who actually, and I can't help but say that this is nothing less than silly.

01:28:48

Sorry if I'm hurting anybody's feelings who's listening. But people who say, I wish

01:28:53

I had a more dramatic testimony. I was raised in a Christian home. I've never been overtly or scandalously rebellious.

01:29:02

I've never done drugs. I've never been a drunkard. I've never been involved in sexual immorality.

01:29:07

And I think my testimony is very boring. I was raised in a Christian home and I think that I was saved very young because I can't remember ever being an enemy of Christ.

01:29:15

And they'll be lamenting this. And I have to correct them and say, are you crazy?

01:29:21

I mean, what a thing to rejoice about, that in the 21st century especially, that God had a hedge around you and protected you for his own reasons.

01:29:32

Why he does not do this with all of his children, I don't know. But he protected you from ever being in these extreme, overtly scandalous behaviors before you were regenerate.

01:29:47

This is something to rejoice about and it also gives parents hope that their children may be also protected from this.

01:29:54

And then on the other end, I've had to correct and rebuke friends who are more predominantly from fundamentalist backgrounds who will say, if you cannot remember the day and the hour that you were born again, you're not born again.

01:30:10

What? Where does it say that in the Bible? And even those that would say, if you doubt your salvation, you're definitely not a

01:30:20

Christian. You know, those kinds of things, there is no biblical basis for that at all.

01:30:28

And I think that there are seasons, especially when we're living as Christians in a state of unrepentance.

01:30:35

Now, I believe in Lordship Salvation, as it has been nicknamed, I believe that true

01:30:40

Christians will eventually emerge out of the sinful rut that they are in if they are living in rebellion.

01:30:47

But I do believe, as I even experienced myself when it comes to abuse of alcohol,

01:30:53

I emerged from that unrepentant sin that was unrepentant at the time, of course, and came to my senses due to God's grace and mercy and repented of that and went to an alcohol rehab ministry in Boone, North Carolina called

01:31:10

Hebron Colony Ministries. And so, during that period of unrepentance,

01:31:17

I think that it was right for me and it is right for everybody in a backslidden state to question their salvation.

01:31:27

What do you think about what I just said there, Lee? I'm following you, and I've had similar conversations on both ends of that spectrum.

01:31:40

So, if one is lacking, quote, a conversion experience, certainly they could be commended to test themselves, to examine themselves, to be sure that they're in the faith.

01:31:56

And yet, at the same time, Chris, there are those believers that don't have a, quote, powerful conversion testimony, and yet they're godly men and women, and some of them yet struggle with assurance.

01:32:12

And so, pastorally, we would come alongside those individuals and commend to them these objective realities of the gospel, that it doesn't matter if one is saved, like the driftwood just floating down the stream toward Christ, or if one is saved and it's like a tidal wave experience, they are no less miraculous one way or the other.

01:32:38

And by the way, I think we have to be clear when we say people who don't have a conversion experience, we believe that everybody who is saved, obviously, is converted, but we are talking specifically about what we believe

01:32:53

Murray is referring to as something, a moment that was a dramatic experience that they can palpably and tangibly grasp as a moment of leaving darkness and entering into light, that kind of a thing.

01:33:09

That's right. Because even children raised in a Christian home who are rescued by God early and regenerate, even though they may not be conscious of the day and hour this occurred, because it was life as usual, they were still converted.

01:33:31

Yes. Spiritually converted, not that they were converted from one religion to another, but they were converted.

01:33:37

We are going to our final break right now, and if anybody wants to join us on the air, please send us an email as soon as you can to chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

01:33:45

chrisarnson at gmail dot com. This will be shorter than our normal, or should I say, shorter than our last break.

01:33:53

So, please send in those questions, if indeed you intend to send it, send it in as soon as possible before we run out of time.

01:34:01

chrisarnson at gmail dot com. chrisarnson at gmail dot com. And please, as always, give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence if you live outside the

01:34:09

USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal or private matter. Don't go away. We'll be right back with Lee Dodd after these messages.

01:34:18

James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries and the Dividing Line webcast here. Although God has brought me all over the globe for many years to teach, preach, and debate at numerous venues, some of my very fondest memories are from those precious times of fellowship with Pastor Rich Jensen and the brethren at Hope Reform Baptist Church, now located at their new, beautiful facilities in Corham, Long Island, New York.

01:34:40

I've had the privilege of opening God's Word from their pulpit on many occasions, have led youth retreats for them, and have always been thrilled to see their members filling many seats at my

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Holy Scriptures, and to be surrounded by truly loving and caring brothers and sisters in Christ.

01:35:05

I also want to congratulate Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham for their recent appointment of Pastor Rich Jensen's co -elder,

01:35:11

Pastor Christopher McDowell. For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net,

01:35:18

that's hopereformedli .net, or call 631 -696 -5711, that's 631 -696 -5711.

01:35:29

Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island that you heard about them from James White on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

01:35:42

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01:53:04

This is Chris Arnzen, and this is the final segment of our interview with Lee Dodd of Providence Chapel in Denton, Texas, on the

01:53:10

Puritan perspective on subjective Christian experience. If you could, Lee, summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners in regard to this subject.

01:53:20

Yes, it is to commend subjective experience in the life of the

01:53:27

Christian as both valid and biblical, to commend what the

01:53:32

Apostle Paul commended in Romans 5, 5, and to even not just appreciate it or acknowledge it, but to ask

01:53:42

God for it. I want to quote Thomas Goodwin, the English Puritan. He said, there is light that cometh and overpowereth a man's soul and assures him that God is his and he is

01:53:56

God and that God loves him from everlasting. It is a light beyond the light of ordinary faith.

01:54:04

It is the next thing to heaven. It is faith elevated and raised up above its ordinary rate.

01:54:10

It is the electing love of God brought home to the soul. And that is an excellent summarization of Romans 5, 5.

01:54:21

We have Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania, who says, Do you think that Christians fail to recognize the importance of what you are saying in countries such as the

01:54:34

United States where we are not really being persecuted? Sometimes I think that God gives an extra measure of the supernatural as far as a conscious experience of his love when it comes to persecution, when we see heroes of church history who were singing hymns when they were being burned alive, etc.

01:54:55

I think even though it looks like there is persecution rising up on the horizon in front of us here in the

01:55:02

United States and other places that are relatively safe, I think that we perhaps lose something in this kind of vivid experience.

01:55:14

You know, Chris, that's very, very insightful. Yet I'm not totally convinced persecution is at the heart of it.

01:55:25

Rather, it is the neediness of Christians. In America, we are prone to not feel as though we need the

01:55:36

Lord because we have so many creature comforts and so much stability. So the persecution is a symptom, an outward circumstance.

01:55:46

But what it does in the lives of believers is it causes them to show their neediness.

01:55:52

Here in America, we're not all that needy. But needy ones in America that can say, as Isaiah said,

01:56:01

I am poor and needy. They are experiencing these manifestations of the love of God in the heart.

01:56:09

And I trust they can and should experience them regularly. We have

01:56:15

John in Bangor, Maine. And by the way, John, I hope that you make the trip to Portland, Maine tomorrow through Saturday for the

01:56:22

Fellowship Conference in New England. But John in Bangor, Maine says, do you think that people who stress these kinds of experiences over and over again may be missing out on the authentic experience that you're talking about?

01:56:36

Because everything, in their opinion, is some kind of a supernatural experience. Yes, that is certainly sad, but true in the lives of some.

01:56:47

And yet, we cannot, we must not let that distract us from genuine

01:56:53

Christian experience ourselves. Well, I want to make sure that our listeners have all of the contact information that they need to get ahold of you, to visit

01:57:06

Providence Chapel in Denton, Texas, and to attend the Fellowship Conference New England. First of all, our guest's personal website is leadod .com.

01:57:16

And there's two, or should I say three Ds in Dodd, one in the beginning and two at the end. leadod .com.

01:57:23

Providence Chapel of Denton, Texas has a website, which is providencedenton .org.

01:57:30

providencedenton, spelled D -E -N -T -O -N .org. So make sure that you keep that on file somewhere if you're ever visiting

01:57:38

Texas, or perhaps if you already live there or have friends and family living there. The Fellowship Conference New England, where my guest is speaking along with,

01:57:46

I believe, three other speakers, Fellowship Conference New England from tomorrow through Saturday, August 1st through the 3rd, that website is fellowshipconferencenewengland .com.

01:57:58

fellowshipconferencenewengland .com. And might I remind you, folks, before I go off the air, that Solid Ground Christian Books has been a faithful supporter of Iron Trip and Zion Radio since we first launched.

01:58:11

So please, for all your gift -giving needs, whether it be for wedding anniversaries, whether it be for children going off to college, anything that you are buying a gift to celebrate, please, not that you're celebrating your kids going away, or perhaps you are, but please remember solid -ground -books .com,

01:58:29

solid -ground -books .com, and remember to tell them that Chris Arnson of Iron Trip and Zion Radio sent you.

01:58:35

Thank you so much, Pastor Lee Dodd, for being on our program today. I look forward to your return. I want to thank everybody who listened today, especially those who took the time to write.

01:58:44

And I want all of you to always remember, for the rest of your lives, that Jesus Christ is a far, far greater