July 31, 2019 Show with Lee Dodd on “The Puritan Perspective On Subjective Christian Experience: Outpourings of God’s Love & Romans 5:5”

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Wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this last day of July July 31st 2019 and I'm thrilled to have back on the program a guest who I loved interviewing. The last time he was on I believe it was one year ago today.

I think it was July 31st of 2018 if I'm not mistaken when my guest Lee Dodd was on the program and this time we are going to be discussing a topic that I believe is a very important topic and It is a very common issue one of the most common issues I think that arises in Christendom and the issue is Christian or should I say subjective Christian experience and today we're specifically going to be talking about the Puritan perspective on subjective Christian experience and outpourings of God's love and Romans chapter 5 verse 5 and we're also going to be announcing the 2019 fellowship conference, New England in Portland, Maine and my guest Lee Dodd is one of four pastors at Providence Chapel in Denton, Texas.

It's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens iron radio pastor Lee Dodd. Hey, thanks, Chris. Good to be with you, brother. Was I right that the last time you were on was one year ago exactly today?

One year ago today. Wow, it's amazing. Yeah, I'll see you again in 2020.

Hopefully we'll have you on again sooner than a year the next time before we Go into the theme of our show today the Puritan perspective on subjective Christian experience an outpouring of God's love and Romans.

Chapter 5 verse 5. Tell us about Providence Chapel of Denton, Texas.

Sure brother be glad to. As a side note You had said I was one of four here in Denton text August of last year and program together. We we have a fifth elder in the church. So I'm one of five Marvelous brothers one of which Mac Tomlinson is on your show is a relatively frequent guest.

So. Yep, the church is located in Denton, Texas is a reformed and baptistic Church and By God's grace, we were planted in the year 2000 and now 19 years later. The church is well established continuing to grow the same site trust or maturing in the Lord Sunday coming up this Sunday where we'll be baptizing two or three new converts.

So the Lord is at work here in Denton, Texas, which is just about 30 minutes north.

And if anybody listening either. Lives near Denton, Texas. I know my brother John. I would appreciate everybody praying that my brother John Arnzen Visits Providence Chapel in Denton, Texas. My brother John is not a believer.

And I have been praying that he visits Providence Chapel in Denton because he only lives about 10 minutes away in Justin, Texas and but if anybody wants to visit Providence Chapel in Denton, Texas If you live near there or if you want to recommend it to family friends and loved ones who do live near Denton or if you're vacationing near Denton, Texas.

The website is provenance Denton org and that's Providence Denton D e n t o n org and hopefully you'll remember to Announce that again later. Tell us about your blog Lee dot-com. What are the kinds of things that you typically blog about?

Brother that's that's funny. You mentioned it and I should have probably touched base with you Beforehand, I don't really.

Blog all that much.

Don't don't really consider myself a blogger, but will in a Double underline occasionally post something on the blog normally a piece of devotional content. I I do manage and maintain a daily edification email list That is sent out to a couple hundred recipients.

Where I'm either sharing some information from the Puritans or the Reformers or just men from church history just edifying encouragements. And I'll occasionally write along those lines as well to email out and then Occasionally those things will find their way to the blog.

But that is definitely not an active blog nor an active part of the ministry. God's given me.

Well, if anybody wants to check that out, it's Lee dot-com. Correct?

That is correct. Yes, and.

Subjective Christian Experience Rooted in Romans 5:5

We are discussing as I said today Something that is a very common thing in Christendom. Where you have people? Who use their subjective Christian experience as a guide to making vital decisions as a guide to drive them into various beliefs.

And I've met I'm sure everybody listening has Met many people professing to be Christian. Who discuss their subjective Christian experiences as if they are with certainty?

As.

Reliable and as faithful and as true and as inerrant as the Bible itself. To give you one example, I won't mention this person's name, but there is a person I know very well Who swears he is living In a way that pleases God that he has nothing to really worry about in regard to his stance with God because of the fact that about 40 years or more ago he had a vision of Jesus Christ Picking him up in his arms and rocking this person to sleep like a baby And telling him that he was safe and telling him that he Was a beloved child of God and all those kinds of comforting things.

Of course the fact that this was accompanied by an Acid trip doesn't seem to cloud the reality of this event in his life.

But.

Why is it that you specifically wanted to discuss? Subjective Christian experiences and especially a Puritan perspective on this.

Well of our time together today Will will be on a on a more narrow reality within the experience and That would be really the heart of what Paul is getting to in Romans chapter 5 verse 5 this reality of God's love being poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.

Let me read that it's I'm gonna read from the New American Standard Bible Which of course is one of the sponsors of iron sharpens iron radio. Hope does not disappoint because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit Who was given to us?

Yes, amen. Brother what what is decades? Certainly in response to the rapidly growing charismatic movement birthed out of the 60s and 70s has has been a Some measure in certain overreacted I think and the pendulum then has swung too far the other way.

Even in our own very hesitant talk about think about even reticent to experience Anything that falls into that subjective category. Right what we're hearing today is let's focus on the objective truth.

And that's right, and we'll always be right, but what is missed is that subjective experience in the life of a Christian is Rooted in and flows direct objective truth that that we embrace the objective realities of the gospel.

So that's a lot of what I wanted to focus in on today in an effort to not be afraid of Subjective experience. And even I'm reminded of Jacob in the Old Testament Wrestling there with the angel and he says to the angel of the Lord.

We understand the angel of the Lord to be a theophany.

I.

Will not let you. And in week week and that that's going to be the heart I think of our discussion today.

Yes.

Those of us who are reformed who have been known. Rightly.

For.

Desiring precision in Theological soundness and accuracy and biblical faithfulness. We have been also known for at times being anal retentive and being OCD or possessing OCD. When we when it comes to theology as well, and sometimes that can make us overreact to things That have been abused by other Christians to the point where we are Depriving ourselves or in some cases even teaching falsehoods when we are in overreaction to The the errors of others we run so far the other way that we create our own errors, don't we?

Yeah, brother we do and I've been guilty of that in a variety of ways and I think the resurgence Thankful to banner of truth thankful and the Puritans chiefly among those books. But we we don't need to be So on guard Against all manner that we just throw the baby out with the bathwater, right?

I think that sometimes out of fear of appearing to be charismatic We have on occasion Lessened or diminished the exuberance of joy and Celebration in our worship services. That that can be a problem when we are.

Sometimes I think the critics of reformed worship are correct. Sometimes not all the time but sometimes they're correct when they enter into our worship services and they get.

The.

Vibe that they're at a funeral service.

And.

When it comes to the demonic realm Because we believe prior to the regeneration of a human That that person as are all people whether they are elect or reprobate we are born totally depraved and because of that sometimes we Underemphasize the fact that there is a demonic realm.

We have a Common thought process that will just blame everything on the sinner. And of course, I'm not trying to remove the responsibility of sinners. But in a in a human level Thinking well people are totally depraved and bad enough on their own.

They don't need any influence of the devil to commit wicked acts and so on and there is truth in that but sometimes because of that View of total depravity people have abused it and wind up acting as if the demonic realm doesn't exist.

Would you also agree with that?

Even.

Even though they wouldn't they wouldn't say that in writing. I don't believe that the demonic realm exists. I'm just saying that that many reformed people act that way.

That that's right. That's right. So so practically. When they're when they're employed in their living, you're right. It doesn't appear that they they really recognize or acknowledge the the spiritual realm and that it exists.

So tell us something about When you say the Puritan perspective on subjective Christian experience. The Puritans although there was a lot that they held in common typically. They're not a monolithic group.

I mean you have Richard Baxter for instance who wasn't even a Calvinist a rare Puritan indeed.

But.

You have differences amongst the Puritans. Are there any specific Puritans that you are referring to when you are getting an idea of the Puritan perspective on subjective Christian experience?

Yes, but the Puritans that I'll be referring to really are the the Puritans that I've read over the years. But but some of the most well-known men Would would really fall into this camp of not only preaching about this Love of God being poured an experience but they lived their lives in such a way to where it was an evident reality and people that knew them and Admired this in them.

So men like John Flavel. Of course Samuel Rutherford for those that haven't read them. They they they read like some of the most intimate material One could read and yet it's preeminently His adoring of our God and Savior the Lord Jesus Christ and yet the language that he used Uses reads much like the Song of Solomon.

And it's it's it's rather beautiful but John Owen Richard said some some of the chief men that we would be acquainted of with among the Puritans.

So.

Before perhaps we should Discuss the positive aspects about subjective Christian experience. I've already mentioned some negative things. Perhaps you should yourself mention a few negative things about this that we should be cautious about.

And then we'll move on to the more positive aspects of subjective Christian experience that you are discussing. That you're highlighting I should say that we perhaps are depriving ourselves of enjoying or having any Notion of God being involved in these things personally that they are possessing real meaning and not driving us to a false conclusion about something or causing us to make a Wrong decision about something.

But if you could before we go into the positive end of subjective Christian experience Why don't you mention some things to be cautious about?

I'd be glad to. And really I think the area when we're talking about the dangers that the negatives the abuses would be that these things happen when Subjective experience becomes detached from the objective truth of Scripture and.

And if that takes place then all manner of can take place in it not have any meaning or any positive impact. It can be demonic activity the counterfeit world it can be Hormonal it could be all sorts of things in and of ourselves.

The safeguard to ensuring that subjective experience in the Christians life is True genius. That it will always be rooted in the objective realities of the gospel. That it will always be rooted in Scripture.

Some of the Abuses would be much of what we see in the hyper charismatic arena. And even things that we see in the nominally charismatic arena these these senses in terms of Personal guidance of the Holy Spirit these these feelings that people talk about in so much talk.

Chris and I know you hear it as well about feelings and. Yet, it's detached from or void of that would be to me one of the main abuses in our day.

I would also add to that. Something that is very rampant today amongst our Roman Catholic family members loved ones friends and neighbors.

The.

So-called or alleged supernatural experiences that have been claimed by.

Those.

Who are the key figures in Marian apparitions? I remember a Friend of mine who's a Roman Catholic. He used to attend nearly all of the Roman Catholic debates that I orchestrated with my friend. Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega ministries Who's the Reformed Baptist theologian that was involved in these debates and also more recently dr Tony Costa of Toronto Baptist Seminary who's also been involved in debates that I have orchestrated.

I have a friend who One of the the anchors to him one of the chief things that he believed that led him to Be certain that the Roman Catholic Church was the true church.

Were.

Apparitions such as those in Fatima and I remember he was always emphatic with me About this because he would say how on earth could this not be truly the Blessed Virgin in that in that or those apparitions.

If.

Because she was saying true and good and wonderful things about Jesus as If the devil never mixes truth With error and that's what I had to remind him. I was saying to him That's really absurd to think that just because an Apparition is saying some true and good things about Jesus that you're gonna believe everything else.

That this apparition allegedly said I mean is the devil that stupid that he would that he would only say grotesque and horrible things. He's obviously deceiving people as an angel of light and.

Therefore.

You know, he's going to trick people who love Christ or who claim to love Christ and you know, so he just refused to Believe that the apparitions at Fatima and other some of the other apparitions were false.

Even though it's interesting you'll have Catholics who will say that there's no way that Fatima is a false apparition and yet some of them especially the more conservative Catholics who are Involved in the traditional Latin right wing of the Catholicism They will totally reject the apparitions at Medjugorje As satanic even so at least they understand that that Mary can Be a There can be a masquerading Demonic spirit that appears to be Mary or claims to be Mary at least they're acknowledging that can happen.

And then you have on the the more silly realm of Roman Catholics who see Jesus and Mary maybe perhaps more often Mary in cloud formations in.

In.

Bagels You know and potato chips in water stains on buildings. I remember I when I was visiting Clearwater, Florida, there was a building that became a shrine to Mary when Catholics purchased this commercial office building because they it was a tinted windows on this.

This building very tall building and the film or whatever material that was used to tint the windows.

It had.

When the the lawn sprinklers were Something went wrong with the lawn sprinklers and they were spraying on the windows for a prolonged period of time. They've they created a bizarre looking stain on the windows and these Catholics were convinced this was a An image of the Blessed Mother that miraculously appeared there.

And I always wonder why just because something may vaguely look like a hooded figure that it's got to be Mary. I mean, why can't this be the angel of death? But I just wanted to say that because There are many Catholics that I know personally that I've met personally who still they'll they'll you know, they will Text me or email me Photographs of these things of clouds that they think look like Jesus or Mary trees.

The leaf the leaf the leaf formations on the trees They'll swear is an image of Mary or Jesus and this is somehow miraculous. So these things are these these things can be heretically superstitious, I guess all superstition is heretical and dangerous when it really comes to Become another idolatrous thing for these people.

No doubt about it.

Well, let's move on now to what you consider Some good Subject subjective Christian experiences. Give us examples of that and how the Puritans specifically spoke of these things and How we are to guide our lives when we are faced with these subjective experiences.

Well, ideally brother I'd like to camp out together as we have time today in Romans 5 5 and Maybe to initiate this segment. I will begin with a quote from the Puritan John Flavel who was speaking about Romans 5 5.

And he said. And the light are Essential to the believers soul and they promote we were not meant to little Exhilaration. And the Christian who goes for a long time without the experience of heartwarming Will soon find himself tempted to have his emotions Satisfied from earthly things and not as he ought from the Spirit of God.

The soul is so Constituted that it craves fulfillment from things outside itself and will embrace earthly joys for satisfaction. When it cannot reach a believer is in spiritual danger to go for any length of time Without tasting the love of Christ and savoring the felt comforts of the Savior's presence.

So how in everyday life of a Christian would this apply? What specifically. Can you give us some examples of a subjective experience that a Christian may? encounter. That he should not readily or she he should not immediately or automatically dismiss as something that doesn't mean anything.

He should take no comfort in that. How is. You know, tell us some of the good ways that God comforts his children through these subjective experiences.

Sure, I would love to do just that and I want to say that that the thrust of what I am committed to myself to you to the audience today is Subjective Christian experience that is rooted in the scriptures and that's why if we're simply to focus on Romans 5 verse 5 and the outpourings of God's love into our heart Then we can rest assure extra biblical not something that is untethered from Christian doctrine not something that is sloppy or man-made.

But something that is commended to us by the Apostle Paul in the epistle to the church at Rome. So this kind of experience again rooted in objective experience the manifest to the individual believer and The great love that he has for him as a son you can see this.

I think Chris in the context of Romans 5. Where in the early verses really the first half of the chapter? The whole chapter in one of the chapter the Apostle Paul is giving argument can be assured of their.

Salvation. In fact, we're gonna we're gonna pick up. We're gonna pick up right where you left off when we return from our first break. Sounds good. Alrighty, and if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question for Lee Dodd.

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We are discussing the Puritan perspective on subjective Christian experience outpourings of God's love from Romans chapter 5 verse 5 and Before we go back into this discussion pastor Lee. I want to make sure that You discuss a little bit about the fellowship conference New England in Portland, Maine.

That's coming up this week. Actually, it's going to be held from the 1st through the 3rd of August. That's tomorrow through Saturday at the Deering Center Community Church in Portland, Maine. Why don't you tell our listeners more about this conference where you are on the roster?

I?

Would be glad to this I've had long involvement in though. This will be the first year I will be preach here in Denton, Texas. Providence Chapel Was a part of the founding of this conference now I think about seven years ago or so and we we recognized that there was a need in the New England States for doctrinally sound for believers to enjoy fellowship to really for to allow the Lord to make connections between Saints in different areas many things in the New England States.

Not even really sound church, so we wanted to see the Lord work in birthing maybe church plants and Relationships and we wanted it to be an encourage in those New England States. So here we are 2019 and this is the fellowship conference New England and It is continuing to do Exactly what we had hoped it would do.

It's an encouraging time. There's preaching that begins Thursday evening actually fly out from Texas To Boston and then head north in a rental car tomorrow morning. But preaching begins Thursday and the conference wraps up Saturday afternoon, August 3rd.

There's plenty of time for fellowships Relationship building getting to meet other Saints from different New England States. Many states will be represented there at the blessing for those who can attend.

Great, and if anybody wants more details on registering or attending Fellowship Conference, New England. Starting tomorrow through Saturday August 1st through the 3rd at the Deering Center Community Church in Portland, Maine.

Go to fellowshipconferencenewengland .com fellowshipconferencenewengland .com. Before I have you return. Well. Let me before I'll have you pick up where we left off and then I'll take our listener question.

We have a first-time listener question from Nigeria Africa. So before we go into his question Why don't you pick up where you left off before the break in regard to Romans 5 5? And I was asking you if you could possibly give us some idea of what kind of subjective Christian experience That you're discussing because obviously there is a rule book here that you are saying it can't be detached from truths of Scripture.

But there's still there's still if it's subjective there is a detachment. Of some kind. So if you could pick up where you left off and give me a better idea of where you're coming from.

Yes, so how to capture the context of the Apostle Paul has been argument after argument Showing believers at Rome why they can be assured of their salvation. In verse 1 he speaks of the objective peace with God that we have being justified by faith and He goes on to really just give reason after reason after machindoing innocent in verses 6 through 11 Magnifies the love of God for ungodly sinners so much so that Christ died and in what what he's doing he's magnifying the love of God and Takes his love for us and that while we were still sinners Christ died for us while we were weak while we were ungodly While we were sinners at the right time Christ died for us.

So there is the objective reality of the gospel and the great assurance That God loves us and that assurance is rooted in objective truth. Yet in the midst of that context we have verse 5 and very systematically logically is Going to make a connection for us that is glory in Rejoice in find assurance in the objective reality of God's loving us even while we were sinners and yet There is a subjective Experiencing of that love that Paul describes in Romans 5 5 and he describes it as God's love being poured into our hearts come to mind to John 14 21 where Jesus says I will love them and Manifest myself to the rooted in the objective truth, but it is a subjective experience that is birthed from these Objective realities and it is personal.

It is Experiential it is full of feeling it is the experience of God's love being poured out into our heart.

Okay, let me go to Somebody whose name I'm sorry. I'm no doubt going to mispronounce it our Nigerian listener Deji yesufu and perhaps he can email me and let me know if I'm pronouncing his name correctly.

It's.