Calvinism Debated | Apologetics Live 0010 | Matt Slick HD 720p

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00:10

This is Apologetics Live with Matt Slick and Andrew Rappaport, part of the

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Christian Podcast Community. All right, we are live.

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This is Apologetics Live. We are here with our resident apologist, Matt Slick from CARM .org, a great place to go for all of your apologetics questions.

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We also are going to have with us Don Johnson from the 80s. He was in a lot of the movies.

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Oh, wait, no, no, no, sorry. This is John. John Johnson. Sorry. But it was close. Close enough. But he is a

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Pelagian. Matt is a Calvinist. And we are going to start off, before we do open

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Q &A, we're going to start off with... John wanted to discuss, in a friendly debate, not a formal debate, but a friendly discussion debate type, the topics of total depravity and original sin.

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After that, if you guys think John didn't do a good enough job defending your views, those of you who are

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Pelagian or semi -Pelagian, you can come in and take your shots with Matt and see how well you do.

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So, John, you're going to have to make sure that you do yourself justice right here. But for folks who do follow us or used to follow the old show

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Matt and I did, they'll know John. He was actually the guy that was driving down the road. Matt, I don't know if you remember this, but John was the guy that was driving down the road.

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You told him to put his hand in front of his face and on camera, he actually slapped himself.

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Oh, yeah. I remember that. That's good. That had to be one of the funniest things. You're like, put your hand right in front of your face.

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He did it. So, John's a very good sport with that. But we want to first, before we get to that, just let folks know, we want to give you some plugs for you to check out karm .org

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for different apologetics things you're going to see out there. That's the ministry that Matt works for and is the founder of.

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And I'm the founder and work for Striving for Eternity. You can go to strivingforeturning .org and check that out.

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We'll give you some folks to know that we are hoping to open the

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Christian podcast community up to the public, to podcasters who want to be on that, hopefully in January, late

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January. We're going to be doing a controlled introduction. And so we want to do it slow and make sure we have all the kinks worked out.

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But if you're a podcaster and you want to be part of that, you can contact me at strivingforeturning .org.

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If you're a listener to podcasts, well, just go to Christian podcast community on whatever podcast app you have.

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You'll get this show and all the others if you want them. So, Matt, can you bring us up to speed with how you and John came about with this discussion?

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Because I know you're the one that posted it. Something about a Facebook page or something, you know, it's been so long ago, a few days ago, and I do so many things that I can't remember all the particulars.

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But it was like, oh yeah, let's talk. And here we are. And you're always up to a challenge.

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So well, lately, not so much the way things have been, but I am trying to set up a debate with a

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Muslim now, but we'll see. That would be a fun one.

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All right. So, so, uh, I don't, I act, we, because this is going to be an informal and we didn't actually say who, who wants to go first or, you know, do we want to do it with one top, one of the topics at a time, or do we want to, uh, yeah, one top at a time.

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Go ahead. Okay. So, so John, why don't you start us off? Why, why, for some folks, why don't you at least introduce yourself?

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I don't think everyone may remember you from the old days when we were on the other. Yeah, no worries.

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Uh, yeah. My name is John Johnson. I'm also go by the Irenic Pelagian. Uh, some people know me by that name.

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Um, I still hang out with most of these console or Google plus guys on occasion. Like I see

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John here, but, uh, yeah, I'm just a Christian. I, you know, phases of, uh, you know, my theology and trying to, uh, understand it.

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Um, and I, you know, I went through a Calvinistic phase early on and, uh, I just,

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I came to understand that. Uh, it's, I guess, you know, all

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I would say is I think the, that Calvinism seems to me to be a system of proof texts.

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So whenever I find someone making an assertion about Calvinism and then they'll point to a text, it never seems to actually say what the

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Calvinist wants it to say, uh, or at least there's, you know, other ways to see it that are, uh, you know, less, uh, do less damage to the name of God.

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If that, you know, so my, my, my issue with Calvinism is I believe it impugns the character of God.

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So, um, so if, I guess if, if Matt would want to, you know, steadily that total depravity is, is, is, you know, just a non -biblical doctrine.

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You know, I believe men are born essentially as Adam and Eve were created before they fell.

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They're born, they're on the path to, uh, you know, they're born on the path. And then, you know, when they reach a certain age, then, you know, they'll sin and they'll leave the path.

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So that's kind of how I see our anthropology. You know, I, I look at Jesus, you know, and I see that he was a human being made like us.

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And so that's where I kind of start with my anthropology. I, you know, I don't think Jesus, a sin nature of the

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Bible. I don't think I ever talks about a sin nature. I don't believe sin, the Bible ever indicates that sin has the power to change our nature.

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So I believe we have human natures and our natures are subject to sin and we can become slaves to sin and we do.

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Um, so I don't know, those are some of the issues I have with Calvinism. I mean, if, if you would want to go to a text,

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I would like to look at one text at a time. You know, uh, I'm kind of familiar,

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I think with, you know, any texts you'll go to. Well, I would just ask you to demonstrate from the text, uh, the idea that people are borned sinless, uh, as Adam and Eve were before they fell.

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That's a statement you made. So show me some scripture. Um, okay.

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So we see, uh, in Romans nine, Jacob and Esau when they're in the womb, they've not done anything good or evil.

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Um, that's one place we could look at. Well, we're going to say there that, uh, they're born in the same state as Adam and Eve were before the fall.

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Where does it say that in the text? Because you just said the Calvinists give you a proof text, but it doesn't say what you say.

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And then you just now, the first thing you did was exactly what you accused Calvinists of doing.

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So show me where Romans nine, nine through 13, where it says that Jacob, you know,

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Jacob didn't do anything good or bad. Show me where it says in the text that they have a sinless nature.

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Well, it seems to me, uh, you know, I just have, you know, my point is they have a human nature.

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If you want to suggest they have a sinful nature, sin, some kind of sin nature, that'd be up to you to show, you know, the

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Bible doesn't teach it. It's pretty hard to tell where that is. Are you a sinner? Have you sinned?

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Yeah. Do you have a human nature? I do. Then you're a human that has, uh, you've sinned.

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So there you go. You just reputed your own self. No. Okay. So, all right.

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So let me ask you a question, Matt. So Adam and Eve, uh, when they were created before they sin, would you say, uh, they were, uh, they had not, they had not done anything good or evil.

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That's correct. Well, I don't know about good or evil because, um, that's a more technically difficult question to answer than just saying good or evil, because what is good, what is evil, but Romans nine talks about some stuff in the context of, of after the fall of Adam and Eve.

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Can you hear me? Okay. My computer's okay. There it goes. So, you know, to say that, well, it hadn't anything good or evil was to say that they weren't doing anything good in their worship and adoration of God in the garden, because they're walking with them.

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So that wouldn't make sense really. Okay. So I, like I said, I, I, you asked for some verses. I just, you know, that was one.

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I want to just, you know, we could point to that. But that verse doesn't say that, uh, that people are born with a nature.

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That's the same as Adam and Eve before they're sent. It doesn't say that in Romans nine. Right. But it does say they haven't done anything good or evil.

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And that, that's the point Paul is making is that, yeah, I've made this choice when the, when the kids were innocent, you know, before they had done anything good.

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Or to say they were innocent. Okay. I'm, I'm implying that. So, all right. Another, you're the one who set the stage and said that the verses you quoted by the

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Calvinist quote, it doesn't say that you keep doing the exact same thing that you accuse Calvinists.

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Okay. See, Matt, you're the one I, I, I opened this up telling you,

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I had objections to your view. Okay. And I told you why. Okay. So you asked me why

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I think, you know, kids are born, you know, there's, there's a lot of reasons, you know, I mentioned. First, you know, that Jesus was born, you know, we have a, we have the, we have the same nature that Jesus had when he was divine.

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You're saying we have a divine nature. We do have a divine nature. I mean, as Paul, as Luke describes it in Acts 17, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

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We have a divine nature. So we're gods. No, but we have the divine nature. We share.

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How do we have a divine nature if we're not gods? Because we're children of God, we share the divine nature.

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You carry the divine nature. Not that we, so what do you mean by we have a divine nature?

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Well, I mean, like in Acts 17, Paul uses the fact that children, you know, we have the divine nature to show that God isn't like a wood and stone and, you know, things like that.

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Um, Acts 17, let me see. Yeah. It's going to be after verse, uh, you know, 22, it's in this section, 22 and following.

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Yeah. It's verse 29. It says, therefore, since we are the offspring of God, um, we ought not try to think, uh, that the divine nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by the art of man's devising.

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Truly these times, you know, so what he's going to go on to say is by looking at God's children, you can see that he's got a divine nature, not a.

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Uh, are we born with his divine nature? Yeah, because, well, we must be because this is a talking about all men, all people.

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So people when they're born are divine. Well, I'm saying that we share the divine nature.

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Well, what does it mean to share the divine nature? You're saying that all people when they're born share the divine nature. What does that, what does that mean?

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Sure. What, what, what divine nature? God's divine nature. Well, I can't think of any other divine nature than God's.

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Okay. So then all people who are conceived and born are sharing the divine nature.

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What does it mean to share the divine nature then? I'm just not sure what you mean by that. Yeah. I, you know,

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I don't have all the answers, Matt, but, uh, it, it sounds like I don't know what that means. Then you shouldn't be saying it.

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Well, the divine nature seems to be, uh, indicating that human beings, uh, and you know, in their, in their created person share the divine nature.

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I would assume it has something to do with our being God imagers. Uh, but you know, that's, that's, you know,

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I'm just saying, he says we have the divine nature now, so you have to argue about, you'd have to ask

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Paul, what does he mean by that? Where does it say we have a divine nature? It doesn't say that in Acts 17, 29, being then the children of God, we have to not think that the divine nature is like gold or silver or stone.

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Where does it say we have a divine nature? Yeah. Okay. So just let me read, let me read the whole, uh, because it's the argument he makes.

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So first, uh, verse 24, God who made the world and everything in it, since he is

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Lord of heaven and earth does not dwell in temples made with hands, nor is he worshiped with men's hands as though he needed anything since he gives to all life breath and all things, and he has made from one blood, every nation of men to dwell on the face of the earth and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings so that they should seek the

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Lord in the hope that they might grow for him and find him though he is not far from each one of us or in him, we live and move and have our being as also some of your own poets have said, for we are also his offspring.

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Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the divine nature is like gold or silver stone, something shaped by art and man's devising.

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So since we are the offspring of God, Paul says, we ought not to think that the divine nature is like gold or silver.

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He's making the argument. God's nature is like our nature. This is why he's arguing it.

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Infinite divine nature is like our fallen nature. I'm just telling you the argument

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Paul is making, Matt. He's proving that God is not like these idols made of wood and stone and such, because you can see we're

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God's children. He just made that point in the argument, just as your own poets have said, we are God's offspring.

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So and he affirms that we are. So we are his children. So therefore, he says, based on the fact that we are

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God's children, we know that God isn't like wood and stone. Do you see the argument?

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So, yeah, the divine nature is different than gold and silver and stone.

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OK, so where does it say that we're born with a divine nature? No, it says that we know that God has a divine nature because we can see that the children of God.

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And so where does it say that children are born with a divine nature in them? Matt, it's right in the it's in the it's built into the argument.

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If you don't see it, you don't see it. That's fine. We can move on. Well, wait a minute. I'm just going off what you said, the tone.

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You said that the problem with Calvinists is they take these verses, they quote things, proof texting, but they don't say what they what the

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Calvinists say they say. And here, every single time quoted a verse, it's the same thing. No, I just explained that it's in the argument,

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I laid it out, the divine nature is. That's how you know

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God is divine, by looking at his children, do you get it? So if I can look at your children,

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I would know something about you by looking at your children, Matt. No, no, no, no, no. Something about God, you said divine nature and you switch it to me.

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So you're saying that look at my children, then you'd know about God's divinity by looking at my kids. Yeah, see, verse 28, for in him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, for we are also his offspring.

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Right, so he's quoting a pagan philosopher, he's trying to witness to the unbelievers and trying to get a common bond with them, and they believed in bowing before different gods as wood, stone and things like that.

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He says, no, the divine nature is not like that. It doesn't say that divine nature is in us when we're born.

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No, how is it Paul is proving that God isn't like wood and stone?

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By saying the divine nature, we ought not to think that the divine nature is like gold, silver and stone.

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Why shouldn't we think that? He made an argument that shows why we shouldn't think that.

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Because God is not like that. He's just stating the fact. No, it's because of the offspring, his children.

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You can look at the children of God that are spread all over the world. He's talking to the unbelievers and using a pagan poet in order to connect with them.

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It says, so being the children of God, all of us, now, biblically, the children of God, you know, you go to John 1, 8, 1, 13, or excuse me, 1, 12, as many as received him to them, he gave the right to be called the children of God.

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So we have Romans 8, we have the issue of adoption. What he's doing here is something theologically different. He's doing evangelism.

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He's simply trying to connect with them and show a commonality. What if your own poet said this?

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Well, being then, from what you're a poet says, the children of God, we ought not think of the divine nature is like gold, silver or stone.

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An image formed by the heart. What he's saying is, hey, look, we should know this. And it's that the divine nature is not like the simple physical things.

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That's what he's saying. You're reading way too much into it. You're ignoring the fact that, look at verse 26, and he has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth.

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Right? So this isn't, this is everyone. This isn't distinguishing God's creation.

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Are you saying everyone's a child of God? Now, hold on. And he says, and has determined their pre -appointed times and the boundaries of their dwelling.

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So all across the globe, he's determined where people will live, when they will live. And he's done that so that, verse 27, so that they should seek the

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Lord in the hope that they might grow for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us.

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Now, that's all inclusive. God is not far from each of us. That's okay. Now, we're talking about, we're talking about the divine nature in children that you're born with.

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That's what we're talking about. So right now, right now, we're just talking about the children, you know, who we're talking about mankind.

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The verse doesn't say what you say it says. So maybe you want to try another verse. No, no. I'm just saying so far, we just have all of mankind in view.

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So now at verse 28, Paul continues. He says, for in him, in God, we live and move and have our being.

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And this, as he says, as also your own poets have said, for we are also his offspring, his children.

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So Paul now, since he's established that we are God's offspring, we are

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God's children. Okay, now he says, so that now, so since that's true, therefore, since we are the offspring of God, see,

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Paul affirms that we are God's children. We ought not to think that the divine nature is like gold and silver.

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It's obvious because you can see a human being and they possess the divine nature.

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We know that God is not like wood and stone. God has the divine nature. We can see it when we look at his children.

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That's what his argument is. So you're saying then that we are divine by nature?

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I'm agreeing with Paul. Are you saying we're divine by nature? Apparently, the human nature is divine.

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Sounds like it to me. Okay, so now you're saying that everybody's a little God. We're all divine like God.

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I'm agreeing with Paul. I'm not saying, I'm pointing out what Paul said. Are you saying then that we're all little gods because we're divine in our nature?

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We're born that way? I'm saying that the human nature designed by God is divine, has some divinity to it.

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Okay, so that means we're God. Divinity is the quality of being God. That's what it means biblically.

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So you're saying we are God? No, I don't believe that's what divinity,

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I mean, what does divinity mean? I'm saying if God, just the fact that God shares his divinity with us, if that's what he does.

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What does it mean to share his divinity? Look, you use these terms, but you don't explain what they mean. What does it mean to share that makes someone else a little bit divine?

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Or does it mean just to indwell us and there's a separation between his nature and our nature? No, we,

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Paul says we have the divine nature. Okay, so you're saying that we are divine by nature then? I'm saying

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Paul says that we have the divine nature. Okay, what does it mean to have? Does it mean that we have it as in part of our nature?

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Or does it mean have as in God indwells us as we have it in that sense? There are different senses, I'm trying to get clarification.

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So which is it for you? It seems to me that Paul has the sense of, you know, it's part of our ontology or, you know, part of our nature.

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So now you're saying we are, we're, we're divine. Okay. So he's ontological. You're saying we are divine. So that means that we're like God because we're divine.

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So that's, that's, that's Mormonism. No, it means that we share the divinity of God somehow.

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You're teaching Mormonism. We're little gods in embryo.

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And then we reach our full potential of Godhood. That's what Mormonism teaches, that we have a divine nature because the nature of God and nature of man are basically one of the same, except that he just progressed further than we have.

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So you're just saying the same basic kind of a thing, you know, you're, you're just, you're just heaping heresy upon heresy.

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But, so now you're saying that we're divine by our very nature being when we're born. So that makes us little gods.

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No, I'm just pointing out that Paul argues that we have the divine nature. So I'm not going to argue with Paul.

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No, you're begging the question. You're assuming that's what he's saying. I'm taking out, I'm taking what you're saying and I'm working with what you're saying. So is

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God divine? God is divine. Yes. Okay. So if I'm divine, am

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I God? No. Then how can I be divine if I'm not God?

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Because it is God. Because you're a creature that God made. Oh, so I'm a divine creature?

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It sounds like, it sounds like because we're children of God, do you think children are related to their fathers?

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Yes. Can God sin? Can God sin? I don't believe so.

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You don't believe so. Wow. Okay. Well, I'll answer that. No. So since I am a sinner and I still struggle with sin and I'm divine according to you, so I'm, I have a divine nature and yet I'm also sinning.

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Yet the divine nature can't sin. So how does that work? It works because God is the father of all humanity and humanity are his children.

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So because they're related to God, I think that's what Paul has in mind. So how can my divine nature that I have, and I'm, I'm divine by nature.

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How can I also sin? Since God was divine nature, cannot sin. And I have his divine nature.

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So how can I sin? Well, obviously we have the ability to sin, Matt. Wait a minute, but God cannot sin.

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And you said, I have God's nature. So how am I able to sin with God's nature?

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Apparently we can possess the divine nature and still sin if we choose to.

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Okay. So I can sin with, I have a divine nature and God can't sin. He has a divine nature. Well, I have a human nature.

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God doesn't have, God doesn't share my human nature. Is a human nature the same thing as a divine nature?

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I don't, you know, some of these questions I'm not going to have the answers to Matt. I, I think God, as we see

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God, you know, God is spirit like Jesus. Ask me the question. Is the human nature the same as the divine nature?

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Go ahead and ask me the question. Is, is human nature the same as divine nature?

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No. Is that what you said? No, the answer is no. The God possesses the divine nature and him to us all the fullness of deity bodily form as Jesus, the divine nature of the

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Godhead. He's before me, the creature. So I don't share his nature because part of the divine nature is immutability, is eternality, is aseity.

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I don't possess those things. I don't have the divine nature in the sense of it's my ontos, my nature in essence.

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So if God cannot sin and he cannot sin with the divine nature, and you saying that I am divine, well then

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I can't sin. But now you're saying, no, you have a divine nature. That's the same as God, but you can sin. But God who has a divine nature can't sin.

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You're not making any sense. Well, you're just not understanding that, see,

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Adam was the son of God. You realize that? Yeah, he was in one sense, a son of God.

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Yeah. So God was his father. Right. And in a sense, being a creator.

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Yeah. You understand, though, don't you, that that children share the attributes of their father?

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Yeah, my children share the attributes of their father and their mother, yes, biologically, you know, genetics.

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Right. So this is what Paul is saying back in Acts 17. Once he shows that, you know, all these people are around and these are

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God's children. And because we're God's children, we shouldn't think that the divine nature is like wood and stone.

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So the divine nature is not wood and stone. We know that. But I asked you if God could sin.

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You said you don't believe so. I'd help you out. No, he cannot. And then you say, I have a divine nature, but I can sin.

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You haven't been able to to explain that disparity, because if you say if I have a fallen nature, well, welcome to Calvinism.

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But if you're saying that we don't have a fallen nature of a divine nature, that's a problem. But I'm a sinner and you're a sinner.

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So you have fallenness. I don't believe in fallen natures. I believe we have a human nature that can sin or do whatever humans are capable of.

27:32

Well, I believe we're by nature children of damnation, children of wrath. That's what our nature is. Only sons of disobedience are children of wrath by nature.

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Really? And so only them. OK, but I mean, so when we're born, we're born completely innocent, which you have no verses for.

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And you're like Adam and Eve before they fell, which you have no verses for. And then you say we have divine nature, which you go to the text, but doesn't support that.

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And then you say we're divine in our nature. And then yet we can sin. And when

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I ask you if God can sin, you say you didn't think so, which is a problem in itself. You should have the emphatic, no, he cannot.

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And there's problematic there. Because you're so man centered in your theology, you're affecting the very nature of God. Your humanistic philosophy is overpowering you.

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You see, this is a sign of, believe it or not, total depravity. Well, I think you ignore

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Jesus and his role and whether he was actually tempted to sin or not. So how do

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I ignore Jesus role? Yeah, because I think Jesus chose as a human being,

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I believe Jesus chose not to sin. I don't believe he didn't sin because he couldn't sin.

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So does Jesus have two natures? Did he have two natures?

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Does he have two natures, divine and human? Does he have two? I don't know. Do you read the

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Bible? Do you believe the Bible is true? I do. John 1 1 verse 14. In the beginning was the word.

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The word was with God. The word was God. Verse 14. The word became flesh and dwelt among us. So the divine

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Lagos God became flesh. Colossians 2 9. For in him dwells all the fullness of deity in bodily form.

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That's divine and human as two natures. Except that I read that in Philippians, Jesus said he didn't, you know, count his equality with God, something to be held on to.

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And he laid it aside and became a man. He lowered himself. Oh, so Jesus on earth was not in the form of a servant.

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Yeah. Jesus was not God on earth. I believe, of course, his identity as God remains the same.

29:51

Was Jesus God? Did Jesus have a divine nature? Was he actually God incarnate on earth? He was a human.

29:57

He had a human nature. I know that much. Did Jesus have a divine nature? Was he God incarnate?

30:03

Well, you'd have to show if you think he did, Matt, show me where you think Jesus had a divine nature.

30:08

John 1 1 verse 14. Colossians 2 9. Philippians 2 5 through 8. What about the fact that Jesus didn't count his equality with God, something to be held on to, and he set aside those things?

30:20

He did not consider it robbery to be made in the form of a servant. Yeah, he did not consider equality to be robbed or taken.

30:29

In other words, it was already his. OK, let me just interrupt real quick for one thing.

30:36

If you guys could try not to talk over each other. So like if you ask a question, give him a chance to answer and vice versa.

30:45

Thanks. So you're not even sure if Jesus was God in flesh when he's on the earth?

30:52

No, I know he was God and he became a human being. Was did

30:57

Jesus possess two natures while walking on the earth, God and man? I don't read any scriptures that tell me that.

31:05

OK, what do you believe? Does he have two natures when he walked on earth? Yes or no?

31:10

I believe he was a human being whose identity is

31:16

God. OK, did he have two natures? Did you believe he did have two natures or did not have two natures, both divine and human or not both divine and human?

31:26

Well, if I'm stuck with only one, you know, where do you see,

31:33

Matt, that Jesus at all you know, at all times possessed two natures?

31:42

Jesus, just for clarification for those with his question, Jesus at all times, we're not talking about the pre -incarnate

31:47

Christ because Jesus himself came into existence when he was conceived and born. That's when he adopted the human nature and the word became flesh in that sense.

31:55

From that point on, from eternity on, he will always possess two natures. Now, that's the Orthodox doctrines called the hypostatic union, just for clarification.

32:03

So when you say that Jesus always possessed this, it's not the case. Two thousand years ago, Jesus became a man.

32:09

So technically to say he always possessed both natures is technically correct. If we understand it to mean at the time of his inception that Jesus with two persons, that's what that means.

32:18

That's that's biblical Orthodox theology. Now, Jesus says, unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins.

32:24

John 8, 24 and John 8, 58, he says before Abraham was, I am. They wanted to pick up stone to kill him.

32:30

John 10, 30 through 34 to pick up stones again to kill him. And he said, many good works in the

32:35

Father I've shown you. For which of these are you stoning me? And they said, for good work, we don't stone you, but you being a man make yourself out to be

32:42

God. So the Pharisees understood he's claiming to be God. Jesus claimed to be God, he was claiming it, they understood exactly what he was saying.

32:50

So you either believe Jesus or you believe the Pharisees, you either affirm that Jesus is God in flesh, two natures, or you deny that he's

32:57

God in flesh with two natures as the Pharisees. No, I don't have to. I can affirm that Jesus is

33:02

God and that he has a human nature. Does he have two natures? The person have two natures, a divine nature and a human nature.

33:11

I don't read. It seems to me Jesus set his divinity aside. So I'd have to say that.

33:16

So if he said it is a miracle. If he set his divinity aside, then he was no longer

33:24

God. No. Why do you say that? Because he would set it aside.

33:31

So he's not divine. It's not there. It's not his. He says set it aside someplace else.

33:38

Well, he set it aside. Didn't mean he could pick it up again. Just because he sets it aside doesn't mean he loses his identity of who he is.

33:49

Like should God choose not to exercise his power at a certain time doesn't change the fact that he's

33:56

God. Or, you know, I mean, it's all right. So you don't understand the hypothetic.

34:01

Did you even know what the Trinity is? Yeah, I believe in the Trinity. What is it?

34:08

I believe in that and I believe that God is one God and three persons.

34:17

OK, did Jesus rise from the dead, the same body he died in? I believe so. Is he a man right now?

34:24

Is he a man? I suppose so. Is he God right now?

34:32

Well, you know, I have questions about that. You know, I mean, we could, you know, I would suggest you go to talks about him being at the right hand of God, you know, that Jesus, you know.

34:46

I'm not sure of, you know, I could see more of a hypostatic union at the time of the ascension than I can at the time of the incarnation, if that makes sense.

34:59

And that would mean his personhood changed in that interim. And that would be adoptionism, a form of that.

35:05

And that's a problem. I would suggest you go to QARM and read up on the nature of Christ, the hypostatic union, communicatio idiomatum, and read these things because you are in serious error.

35:19

You're really confused. We're going to talk about total depravity. So you've not been able to demonstrate your position of Pelagianism or no total depravity yet.

35:30

Well, my charge is, Matt, that it's your verses that you try to prove total depravity that don't prove it.

35:39

So you asked me some questions. I went to some texts. I didn't go through all the texts that we could go over.

35:46

Ask me a question. Right. Well, I go to Acts 17. And you don't even see the argument there.

35:53

You don't admit that it's the reason that we are like God.

36:00

And Paul says that's the divine nature. That's how we know by looking at his children that God has the divine nature.

36:08

You can't see that somehow we share the divine nature. You have a problem with that. I didn't say that.

36:15

I deny that we somehow share the divine nature. But I'm just saying that your interpretation of the text is not proper.

36:22

But you want to ask me a question, though? Well, I would like to know why you think men are born in the condition you think they are born in.

36:35

Because Adam represented us. When he fell, we fell. OK, so from I suppose you're taking that from Romans 5.

36:49

12. Is that where you get that? Sin entered the world through Adam, and he represented us in Adam.

36:56

All die. First Corinthians 15. 22. Through one transgression, there resulted condemnation to all men.

37:02

Romans 5. 18. So, yeah, that's what I believe right there. The Bible says there's none righteous, not even one.

37:08

There's none who understands. None who seeks for God. All have turned aside. There's none who does good. See, people act based on what they are.

37:16

And so what they are is sinful. Right. I agree that we act like what we are.

37:22

But what you what you're what you're supposing is that we were born this way. Like you just quoted a verse.

37:29

You just quoted a verse that shows that we were not born that way. Romans 3. 10 to 12 is on my side because there it shows that all.

37:39

And you think that's everyone. All have turned aside, Matt. Where did they turn aside from?

37:48

He's quoting the Old Testament, of course, and he's saying there's none righteous, not even one. Would you say that we're born righteous?

38:03

I don't think we were born righteous. No. Were we born sinful? No. Were we born neutral?

38:12

It seems like it. Yeah. I think God, you know, God creates us in the womb, just like Psalm 139 says.

38:19

You know, so we have to assume that when God makes us, that's something that's good. It doesn't have a sin nature.

38:25

That wouldn't be good. OK, do you know what federal headship is? Mm hmm. What? It's the it's the doctrine that through Adam's sin, you know, that Adam was actually the representative of humanity and that when

38:47

Adam sinned, God held all his progeny. You know, we basically all sinned when he sinned.

38:54

And so he holds all his progeny guilty for this, for that sin. That's pretty much there's different variations on this called original sin.

39:03

But it's the it's the teaching that the male represents its descendants. And that's what it basically is. Now, it says in Adam all die.

39:11

Do you know what the phrase in Adam means? I believe it means he's talking about that would be those that identify, you know, as human beings in his line.

39:24

Those that identify as human beings. So if someone identifies identifies as a roach, would that not be represented by Christ?

39:32

No, I'm saying, you know, I would understand that is all human beings that come from Adam.

39:38

OK, so good. So Adam was our first ancient father and all descendants from him.

39:44

Right. Right. Says in him, in him was a term of federal headship. Just as it says in Christ, all will be made alive.

39:53

First Corinthians 1522. So federal headship in Adam. So who are the ones who are in Adam?

40:01

All human beings, I think, are in Adam. So all human beings die. Yes. OK, do babies die?

40:10

Yes. So sin results in death. Well, death wages in his death.

40:21

Romans 623. Hold on one second, John. Is there any way you can get headphones on? We're getting an echo from from when

40:28

Matt speaks. Yeah, because I know he's got some headphones. I'm sorry to interrupt,

40:34

Matt, but. OK. It just it's making it kind of hard to do. Well, I'll tell you what, while he's doing that, now would be a good time we could give a word out to our sponsor.

40:45

We'll do that. Be a good time for that. We were this this show is actually it's it's

40:51

Matt Slick Live, the radio show that is sponsored by MyPillow. And MyPillow is a pillow that both

40:57

Matt and I use regularly because we love them. So it's very easy to have them as a sponsor.

41:03

And Mike Liddell, Matt is a professing believer and has donated,

41:09

I think, like a million dollars to a pro -life movie. He's been coming under some heat for that. And I actually in January, it looks like I'll have him on the

41:18

Rap Report podcast to discuss that. So good for him. Yeah.

41:23

And so it's good to have men there willing to stand on convictions. But MyPillow is an excellent pillow.

41:31

It is it doesn't matter like how late you how much you sleep on it. It stays the same firmness.

41:37

It is great. And, you know, gets dirty. Just throw it in the wash, dry it, throw it in the dryer.

41:45

And it's like back to normal. Back to new. It's a great pillow. Matt and I both travel with ours. If you'd like to get your

41:52

MyPillow, you can call 1 -800 -944 -5396.

41:59

That's 1 -800 -944 -5396 to get yourself a

42:05

MyPillow. Back to the debate. John. Yeah, I'm still

42:12

I'm going to have to try a different pair.

42:19

So he's about as good with his technology as he is with his theology. You guys are the ones that have the problem, not me.

42:31

What I'm saying and why you do that, there's a guy in in on YouTube called

42:40

JC Superstar. I'm assuming stands for Jesus Christ Superstar.

42:48

Love to get him in here. If he if he would like to come in and prove his non -belief in God, that would be wonderful.

42:58

Also, Edison, if I know you're watching, I don't know if you can see the chat. If you can see chat, just put a note in the chat.

43:05

I got some I got to share with you about the conference out in the Philippines. Are you set up now,

43:11

John? I think so. Can you hear me OK? Because I can hear you. Good.

43:17

Yeah, as long as you can hear me. And is that taking care of your echo problem?

43:25

That's good. Yep, that takes care of it. Thanks. OK, I kind of forgot where we were.

43:36

Well, let's just pick up with you. You were asking questions.

43:43

We were talking about death and babies. Federal. And federal. Yeah, so babies die, right?

43:57

Well, all human beings are mortal. They were created mortal. But the only reason you die is because of sins, which is death.

44:05

If someone's sinless, there's no there's nothing that holds them. There's death is what is result. You know, the day that you did the fruit, you'll die.

44:12

And that's the rebellion against God in Genesis to 17 death and sin. If there is no sin, why do they die?

44:19

Well, what happened when Adam died was that he was removed from the garden and the cherubs placed there to guard the way to the tree of life so they couldn't eat and live forever.

44:30

So that's why people die like Adam. You know, he was removed from the garden. That was his sentence.

44:36

And that's how he, you know, he, you know, in effect, removed all human beings from the garden because he got removed.

44:43

So the reason people die is because I mean, as far as a baby dies, you know, who hasn't committed any sin, they might die just because they're mortal.

44:53

The wages of sin is death. But that death, you know, Adam didn't die till nine hundred and thirty years later.

44:59

If Adam had never sinned, would he have died? I think he would have remained alive, you know, in the garden because he would have access to the tree of life.

45:10

OK, so as long as he didn't sin, he could stay alive. Yeah, he would.

45:15

No, he as long as staying alive was a result of him having access to the tree of life.

45:22

So you mean he stayed alive not by being sinless, but by eating a certain fruit?

45:29

I believe so, because God created Adam. Yes, he created him out of the dust.

45:35

And, you know, that shows his mortality. So as long as he kept eating of the tree of life, he'd stay alive.

45:41

I believe so. Yeah. Just like in Revelation, we see the tree of life again.

45:48

It produces fruit each month. You know, that's probably was this design in the garden. You know, they would they would have to keep eating of the fruit in order to have life.

45:57

OK, so that means they would have. So then you're saying they have to eat of the fruit of the tree to stay alive, but they would have been sinless.

46:07

And if they hadn't eaten of the fruit of the other vegetables, then they would have died, even though they had never sinned.

46:14

Now, as long as they ate from the tree of life, I got that they didn't eat from that tree and they were eating from other fruits, vegetables in the garden.

46:23

And yet they never sinned. They would have died. Right. Yeah, I think so. So it says the wages of sin is death.

46:32

What does that mean then? What's that death? Well, it's the there is only you know, the only reason we we think of death in in ways other than one way is because we know about the resurrection.

46:48

But death, I see death as the, you know, eschatological death, you know, death that you won't come back from.

46:56

That's OK. So babies die because they don't eat of the fruit of the tree of life.

47:04

Well, we don't have access to that tree. So, yeah, babies are mortal and they can die even though they don't sin.

47:12

So babies die, but they have not sinned. And yet the wages of sin is death.

47:20

So they've not sinned, but yet they're dead. They die. Yeah. So you got any verses you got any verses to show me that that this mortality thing will live, you know, will they'll die in mortality and their sinlessness?

47:34

Do you have anything to back this up scripturally or? I don't know what

47:39

I'm not sure what you want me to back up your idea with scripture. Yeah, I just I mean, this is all based on scripture.

47:51

You know, we see that Adam was kicked out of the garden, and that is why, you know, that that I believe is exactly what

48:01

Paul had in mind in Romans five, when he was talking about Adam and what he did. And we can see a little of that in in Romans five, 12, because he he doesn't say that.

48:13

I mean, he says that death spread to all men because all sin. You know, they all sinned in Adam that include babies.

48:24

Well, it only includes babies after, you know, they reach the age of accountability. So then the all who sin doesn't include babies until a certain age.

48:34

It doesn't mean all. Well, in my view, sure. I don't believe that baby.

48:41

So why would a baby die? Why would a baby die? I mean, if he's mortal, he's going to live for a long, long, long time.

48:47

Why is he dying in infancy? You know, there's abortion.

48:53

People kill babies. I mean, they die because they they they're mortal. That's why they're they're diable.

48:59

They can die. But what about sudden death? SIDS, you know, sudden infant death syndrome.

49:06

They're in the crib. They just die. Nothing apparently wrong with them. They just die. It happens. But they didn't sin, according to you.

49:12

So why? Why'd they die? Right, because they're mortal. They die because they're mortal.

49:19

But what's the reason that they did? Because if they don't sin, they're going to continue to live for a long period of time.

49:25

So something must have happened that they sin. Yeah, but they die. Yeah. The reason they die is because we are kicked out of the garden.

49:33

OK. You want to ask me another question? Yeah, I don't know.

49:43

Yeah, I just OK. So federal headship, I mean, I see that principle in the scripture.

49:50

But what I don't see is all that like certain

49:55

Calvinists want to attach to that doctrine. So, you know, that's one issue I have.

50:01

But just to touch back on federal headship. Federal headship is a teaching that the male represents a descendants.

50:08

Did Jesus represent us? Yeah, he I believe he represented all humanity on the cross.

50:15

He represented everybody. So did he bear everybody's sin? Yes. So he canceled the sin debt for everybody who ever lived.

50:23

In a legal sense. OK, so we're judged for damnation on a legal sense for the base on sin.

50:29

So why do people go to hell if he canceled their sin and got rid of it for everybody? Why did I go to hell?

50:36

Well, because life only life is conditioned on faith in Christ.

50:41

And if you unless you believe you won't live forever. Well, faith denying, you know,

50:48

God and not having faith in Christ is a sin. So he paid for all the sin. So why do they go to hell if there's there's no sin to be held against them?

50:57

Right. Jesus took care of the sin in the legal sense. So unbelief, a legal aspect of unbelief is taken care of.

51:05

Jesus took care of that. So unbelief, though, and not only is it a sin, it will.

51:13

It also keeps you from being joined to Christ, which is which is the necessary, you know, aspect that has to be completed before we can live.

51:25

So you can have all your sins paid for, including unbelief in the legal sense, paid for on the cross.

51:31

But once Jesus returns and you don't have a body, you don't get the body that's fit for the kingdom.

51:37

You know that from then on, you're just going to be burned up and you won't you'll die. So you're saying

51:45

Jesus actually removed the legal sin debt of everybody and yet God still send them to hell for their sin debt that doesn't exist.

51:54

No, God doesn't send them to hell. And this it's a consequence. It's certainly a consequence of not being joined to Christ when he comes.

52:04

So God doesn't actively put them in hell. They just kind of what just kind of levitate on their own and just kind of move in there, because that's a consequence of not believing.

52:13

Just like a spiritual force. No, like if you go to 2 Thessalonians 2, chapter one, 2

52:22

Peter, chapter three, you'll see that what happens is the picture we have is

52:28

Jesus shows up and his very presence. The believers, you know, they get new bodies.

52:37

The believers are right. You know, everyone's raised believers, get new bodies. But all the unbelievers, they get burned up by God's very presence.

52:45

Like the man of sin gets destroyed by the brightness of Jesus coming. The you know, the epiphany of this prayer is annihilated.

52:53

They burned up. Yeah, they're annihilated. You believe annihilationism? I believe they're burned up.

53:00

Do you believe in annihilationism, that they stop existing? Is that what you mean by burned up? Oh, I just I said what

53:07

I mean, Matt, so. I don't know what you mean, Dwight, that's for clarification. They're burned up. Annihilationists say they're burned up.

53:13

What they mean by it is a person ceases to have any existence. Is that what you're saying? Well, I would go to Isaiah 66 and you can see, you know what?

53:24

You know, there's another picture of it. You know, that, you know, the wicked are like, you know, corpses, you know, just going to be eaten by worms or ashes under our feet.

53:36

So I don't know. Do ashes exist? I mean, you know, if someone's annihilated, will there still be a dead body there?

53:48

If they're annihilated, then they don't have existence. I mean, that's what annihilation means. And unless you want, you know, you know.

53:56

Right. So I'm not an annihilationist. I'm not an annihilationist. Oh, so they're burned up, but they continue to live afterwards?

54:03

No, they're burned up. And then then we then there's a new heaven and a new earth and we're only righteousness dwells and we we go on into the eternal kingdom.

54:14

Do the wicked have any existence at all, any place? Only a dead existence. Only a dead existence.

54:22

Do they have any conscious existence? No, they're dead. So they don't have any consciousness.

54:29

There's no real existence. Well, they're thrown into the lake of fire. And, you know, we see that, you know,

54:36

Hades is thrown in there. Death is thrown in there. We know that death is no more. So I guess, you know, it wouldn't be unbiblical to suggest that people that are thrown into the lake of fire are no more.

54:48

After that, after that, you're an annihilationist. OK. All right.

54:54

Wow. OK. So you've not demonstrated your position versus out of context.

55:01

I've talked to you about federal headship representation. The babies die and you say that they die because they're mortal.

55:08

But that doesn't mean anything. That's just the mortality isn't the cause of their death. Mortality means they can die.

55:14

The cause of their death is something else. And I'm trying to ask you, what's the cause of the death of a mortal child?

55:21

And, you know, you said maybe abortion, that would be an example. And I gave you

55:27

SIDS, just there's no apparent reason. And the way to sin is death. Romans 6, 23.

55:33

And they haven't died or haven't sinned, according to you. They don't sin till the age of accountability, which we haven't even asked you.

55:39

That's biblical. So but yet you say Calvinism is whacked. And then we went into limited atonement a little bit.

55:46

You said everybody's sins are taken care of and canceled. And yet people still go to hell for sin that doesn't even exist for them anymore.

55:53

Illegal. It's a legal debt that doesn't exist. That's exactly correct. You can cancel the sin debt.

55:59

Oh, I believe only for the elect, limited atonement. But if you're going to say you cancel the sin debt, the legal debt for everybody ever lived,

56:05

God can't judge them for damnation because there is no sin debt against them at all. It's gone.

56:10

And that would accuse God of unrighteousness by sending them to hell for sin that doesn't even exist on them. Well, actually,

56:16

God judged the sin. I'm at the cross. Right. So he he did talk about people going to heaven and hell, not going to heaven or hell.

56:25

No, but you're saying God does not not judge sin. He judged it all at Calvary.

56:31

You're saying that people whose sin debt is canceled, doesn't remove it's removed, doesn't exist anymore.

56:37

Legally paid for that. God still judges them for sin. Sin is breaking the law. Sin is breaking the law of God.

56:43

First John four, three. And Jesus said, our father, art in heaven, hallowed be thy name, forgive us our sins.

56:49

Another place, forgive us our debts. You go to Romans 6, 12 and Luke 11 forward to see the relationship where Jesus equated sin with that.

56:57

So you're saying Jesus actually canceled the sin debt for everybody. And yet people still go to hell, which means

57:02

God, the father, God is judging them for sin. They don't have sending them to hell for sin. They don't have.

57:08

It's an inconsistency on your part, but it's not judging them. They died consequentially.

57:15

God died consequentially. Yeah, they experienced the wrath of God. Consequent as a consequence of not having been joined to Christ and not getting the bodies that they need.

57:25

Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter. There's there's sin that does. God can't judge them for damnation. He doesn't. It doesn't exist.

57:32

Well, as a consequence of the only people that are going to live, according to the

57:37

Bible, are people that are joined to Christ through faith. And God grants that they believe. God grants that they believe.

57:44

I'm sorry? God grants that they believe, Leviticus 1 .29. Another problem. Hold on, hold on, hold on.

57:51

He granted the Gentiles that they could believe. And what Paul is talking about, not only did he grant that you could believe, but he's also granted you to suffer for his sake.

58:01

So, I mean, that's the point of the verse. It's not like God has granted individuals a gift of faith.

58:07

That's not what Paul's talking about. Well, he says he's granted you to believe and also to suffer. Does he grant this to individuals or not?

58:15

He grants, no, he grants. He never grants an individual to suffer. And it points in to suffer when Paul, when the

58:21

Holy Spirit spoke to the prophet Joppa or something like that and said, as his belt is, this is how it's going to be for you specifically.

58:28

Now, I was trying to address Philippians where you were starting at. You made a broad statement.

58:33

I just countered it with Scripture. Now, we know that salvation came to the Jews. They rejected him.

58:40

He came to his own. His own did not receive him, but as many as received him, to them he gave. So there's a progression.

58:45

He came to Israel and then after they rejected him, then the gospel was opened up to the Gentiles. And that's when faith, that's what

58:53

Paul was talking about, that it's been granted to the Gentiles to believe, but also to suffer for his sake.

59:00

There's not any idea of a special granting of a gift of faith so they believe.

59:07

Another problem you had was that, you know, you were saying we're divine by nature and that's equivalent to us being little gods.

59:17

Then you say we're not little gods, but we're divine by nature. And you said ontologically that's our nature, our essence to be divine.

59:24

And yet we sin as divine creatures. But God is divine, doesn't sin. And you have a huge inconsistency there.

59:30

I'm just pointing out multitudinous amount of errors, not to mention. No, that's not an error, Matt. Matt, that's not an error.

59:38

It's not an error. This is what Paul is arguing. And I just believe him.

59:44

That's what you think Paul was arguing. And so you believe what you think Paul was arguing. Well, you know, of course, that's what

59:51

I believe he was arguing. Yeah, that's what you believe. And you believe that's what he's arguing. So you believe what you think Paul was arguing.

59:57

That's right. And I just take what you say and work with it. And it falls apart.

01:00:02

The idea of us being divine by nature, which is what you said. Well, you haven't shown anything falls apart. Um, let's try this.

01:00:11

Let's try this, because the thing, John, that I'm noticing your position seems to be if you believe it, it's authoritative because you're just saying this is the meaning of the text.

01:00:22

Matt's asked you a couple of times how you're coming to conclusions you're coming to. In other words, how are you interpreting it to come to that conclusion?

01:00:31

So here'd be an interesting thing for you to try. Take a passage and try to expound how it proves any of the arguments that you've made because Matt's tried to show you you're just saying, well,

01:00:44

I'm just reading the text. Yes, you're reading into the text. And I agree with that. Matt already proved that you're reading into the text because the texts that don't say exactly what you say, they say you even said at one point that you were you're assuming the point that you that that's what the text is saying.

01:01:06

So you got to deal with what the text actually says, because otherwise, I think

01:01:12

Matt's really proving the point that you are guilty of what you accuse. Calvinists, you've made a lot of claims.

01:01:20

You just assume the scripture supports it. And you throw out scripture without actually digging into what it actually means, and you're reading into the scripture stuff.

01:01:29

So obviously, obviously, Andrew, you haven't listened to anything. We spent most of this program talking about Acts 17 and Paul's argument there.

01:01:38

But the whole point is you can't you have yet to exegete that passage. You just say, well, this is what it says.

01:01:45

You assume your conclusion. That's called confirmation bias. So try it, try it.

01:01:52

I think this would be entertaining because I don't think you can do it. I'm just saying I'd like to see you exegete that passage and and show how you come to the conclusion you come to.

01:02:05

Look, I can't I can't do it any more clearly than I did. You know, and it's clear to me that you're just not seeing the argument.

01:02:14

That's fine. We're not seeing it. But don't accuse me of not exegeting the passage.

01:02:20

Well, no, there's a reason we don't see it. Because it's not there. Because it relies on several fallacies that you find out.

01:02:30

You have a fallacy of equivocation. You take the word son of sons and children and you take it in the physical realm.

01:02:40

Do you realize that Jesus was actually not an offspring of God, the father? You don't think human beings are are made in his image?

01:02:54

OK, I asked a very direct question. They're made.

01:02:59

So, OK, what does it mean that humans are made in the image of God? Well, hold on,

01:03:06

I mean, Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit, right? This is amazing. So you just jump from point to point.

01:03:13

I ask you a direct question. I'm not trying to ignore. No, I'm not trying to ignore your questions.

01:03:18

I'm not trying to ignore your questions. I'm just, you know, I'm trying to figure out where you're going. So sorry. Go ahead.

01:03:24

What was your first question again? We'll stick with the last one that you said. Do I not believe that Jesus that were made in the image?

01:03:32

God, what does it mean to be made in the image of God? It's a clarifying question. Yeah, I believe we're we're human beings are like little

01:03:44

God idols that are, you know, that we image God in that way,

01:03:50

I believe that's the word that is used like in the Hebrew scriptures as far as this image has, you know, you know, it's like an imager.

01:04:00

So we image God, you know, so I mean, that's how I understand. So we have certain attributes, but not all of his attributes, right?

01:04:08

Like, of course, God is emotional. We're emotional, right? I agree. We you know, some attributes, you know,

01:04:16

God can't share, you know, we're not we can't be omnipotent, you know, omniscient. But we can know we can have some power.

01:04:23

OK, so now that we know what the image of God means, then it doesn't mean what you are assuming and arguing for that.

01:04:33

Because we have children. Therefore, we're part God. You know, the argument, what

01:04:40

I said, Andrew, and what Paul argues is that we share we in some way we share the divine nature.

01:04:48

And I said from the start, I don't know exactly what that means. But in some sense, we share the divine nature.

01:04:54

That's all I said, because we're related like a father to his children. OK, and so right there, that's not the argument

01:05:01

Paul's making. That's the argument you assume Matt went through that actually. So Matt actually broke down the text.

01:05:06

But your argument is based on a fallacy of equivocation on a child to parent relationship used in a physical sense compared to a title son.

01:05:20

Now, I'm going to ask this again, because I'm really curious to the answer. Is Jesus Christ.

01:05:27

The physical offspring of God, the father. No, not the physical offspring of God.

01:05:33

OK, so then to argue for the physical relationship between a physical father and physical child, and then make that your argument for a relationship you admit is not a physical one, is a fallacy of equivocation.

01:05:48

You're using it two different ways, but using the same terminology. Therefore. Your argument can't be right because it's invalid.

01:05:58

Now, no, I just did was go through and show why your argument is flawed.

01:06:04

What I'm asking you to do is not assume the text. Don't just sit there and say, I'm agreeing with Paul. You're not agreeing with Paul because you're not making the argument

01:06:10

Paul makes. Matt went through this with you and explain that Matt went through and showed you exactly what this is quoting.

01:06:20

Are you even aware that it's a it's a reference to to other people? What others have said, like,

01:06:26

Matt, you're talking about the poets that he's quoted. Eratos. Yes, but the fact is he quotes him, but then he affirms it.

01:06:36

See, you're ignoring you're totally ignoring his. Why is he why does he quote them? Matt even gave you this, so we'll see if you were paying attention to him.

01:06:46

Why why does the why does Paul quote them? He said, well, he says, for even your own poets have said we are his offspring.

01:06:56

And he says, truly, he says there. Let's see.

01:07:08

Anyways. Yeah. See, first, first, you just are not big deal. And I don't think you're dealing with twenty nine.

01:07:15

Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, what is he meaning by that? Then Paul says this, you know, he just quoted the poets who said we are all you know, we are also his offspring.

01:07:28

And he says, therefore, since we are the offspring of God, let's just stop right there.

01:07:34

What does Paul mean, Andrew? Hey, so he says being then

01:07:44

God's offspring. Now, in a sense, are we God's offspring? Well, we're made in the image of God.

01:07:51

OK, but is he taking something that they know? And then something that they quote and then springboarding off of that into something different?

01:08:03

Yes or no? Well, I'm asking you the question, Andrew, here.

01:08:10

I said, you know, the answer is yes, we are the offspring of God. No, the answer what the question is, what does

01:08:17

Paul mean? Since we are the offspring of God, what does Paul mean by that phrase? Sure.

01:08:23

He's taking this phrase that they're familiar with and he's springboarding off of that and using it in a different way to then get into a topic that he wants to talk about.

01:08:33

It's basically my spiritual transition game in practice. He's taking something and then springboarding it into what he says.

01:08:40

We ought not think that the divine being is like gold and silver or stone, an image formed in our imagination or of man.

01:08:52

Now, let me ask you a question. Where is he when he says this? He's in Mars Hill, I think.

01:08:58

That's right. What is it that he started discussing? What is it he's looking at on Mars Hill? What do they have all around?

01:09:04

Yeah, all the idols. OK, so is he referencing this as God being a spirit, we being a spirit versus dead idols that are made of gold, silver and stone?

01:09:17

Well, you know, he's he's talking about the real guy. He noticed there was an idol without unknown to the unknown

01:09:23

God. Well, I'm going to proclaim it because you guys don't know him. I'm going to proclaim him. I'm going to proclaim him to you.

01:09:29

So the answer to the question, let's ask it again to the question, is he doing a comparison between the spiritual and the physical in these these idols they have, which are just made of gold, silver and stone versus God and us who are spiritual beings as well as physical?

01:09:53

Yes, he's that's the very good. So you got you now have to answer. He's using the difference between idols that are made of wood and stone compared to human beings who are, you know, carry the divine nature.

01:10:08

No, not that they carry the divine nature. OK, how do how do how are we supposed to know

01:10:13

God has the divine nature then? If we're looking at his children, wait, wait, wait, how is that going to give us information about the divine nature?

01:10:23

Oh, very simple, because he created everything out of nothing. That's how we can know he's the divine nature.

01:10:30

We don't look at us to prove that God is divine.

01:10:38

Well, that's one that would be one interpretation of this text, but I'm I'm not.

01:10:44

So you actually already made my interpretation. Now you're trying to backpedal because you want to hold your your belief.

01:10:50

No, I can agree with something you say and that it doesn't change what I believe. So the point is, he's not saying anything about us being divine, is he?

01:11:02

He's saying that we ought not think that the divine being.

01:11:07

So it's the divine being is not like gold. And so the comparison missing it.

01:11:15

All you see, no one can see God, Andrew. All we can see are the children. Now, since since Paul argues that we are all his offspring, therefore, because we're his offspring, we should know that the divine nature is not like that.

01:11:33

It's all a comparison of the children. And then we we infer from the children to the father.

01:11:42

OK, that's all assumed from the text. See, I broke this down and walked through it. And you ended up having to agree that this is what the text is saying.

01:11:49

But you don't see anything in here that says we are divine. You see nothing in here that says that's all you're reading into it.

01:11:57

That's eisegesis. That's you putting a meaning in the text. It's you ignoring what Paul is really saying.

01:12:03

That's OK. So so the fact that you see this, which is not there, you can't show how it is there.

01:12:09

OK, I can't force you to see it. That's right, because it's not there. No, it's there.

01:12:16

So and this is this is the the thing you say you're still learning in theology.

01:12:21

And yet I got to tell you, I was I've yet to find a heresy. You don't agree it with as in your discussion with Matt.

01:12:29

I mean, you hit you hit Jehovah Witnesses with the annihilationism. You hit Mormonism in there. And what kind of fallacy do we call this,

01:12:37

Andrew? Well, no, this is what you actually did. You actually promoted the same teachings. It's not it's not that I didn't promote that.

01:12:45

I'm saying that your positions are wrong because they are associated with that. I'm saying it just seems like there's not a heresy you don't seem to enjoy.

01:12:53

The I don't know what you mean by heresy, but OK, there's go to Karm.

01:13:00

And if you go to Karm, there is a doctrine grid. And it will give you the core doctrines that if you disagree with those, that's called heresy.

01:13:11

Then you'll know that'd be the easiest way to get the point.

01:13:16

Here's the point that I want to point to you. So I believe in heresy or believe what God teaches or you believe in heresy because you don't believe in what

01:13:23

God teaches when you when you have to read into God's word and you twist

01:13:28

God's word and give it a new meaning. You no longer have God's word. You have man's word, by the way.

01:13:34

That's Calvin. I know you love Calvin. So I figured I'd give you a quote from him. And so that's what you've done, because there's nothing in this text that says what you claim it says.

01:13:44

That's the thing. What this text says is exactly what Matt said and what I said. Not what you read into the text.

01:13:52

And you want to say, well, we don't see it somehow. Now you're almost arguing as Gnosticism that you have an enlightened knowledge that we just can't.

01:13:58

No, I'm just look, I can only say so much. I'll leave it to others to judge whether you know who's right on this or not.

01:14:09

Yeah, OK, I think everyone I think you made it. You made it clear enough for folks to see you.

01:14:15

You're trying to argue that a physical relationship is a direct relation to a to a relationship between God, the father and God, the son.

01:14:27

You're saying that we need beings to know that God's divine. There's nothing in this text that says we need human beings to know that God's divine.

01:14:37

You read that into the text. That's not in the text. It is in the text. That's why he points out the offspring.

01:14:44

We are his offspring. That's we are his children. Yeah. And so it's idols.

01:14:50

And he says, therefore, since we are the children, his whole argument rests on the fact that we are

01:14:56

God's children. And and because we're his children, God is going to be like us, not like the wood and the stone.

01:15:03

If you don't see it, that's fine. We can go to something else. I don't want to hear charges of I'm a heretic because I'm pointing out the obvious.

01:15:11

No, you're you aren't pointing out the obvious. You're a heretic because you're teaching things that are against what scripture teaches.

01:15:18

And I'm just teaching against covenant. You know, I just don't agree with you, Andrew. I have a different interpretation.

01:15:24

That's all I know. I agree. You have a very different interpretation. The difference is, is I can I can explain the rules of interpretation

01:15:30

I'm following. You can't I mean, you explain to Matt and I, please explain to Matt and I how you're getting the arguments that you're making, because that's what you haven't done,

01:15:43

Matt, walk through and I walk through where we're getting it from text. You just read into it and then say, well, that's what it is.

01:15:48

If you can't see it, it's not that it's your fault. So you need to explain he's doing this.

01:15:54

He's springboarding from one topic to another, just like he did when he says he started with the unknown

01:16:00

God, the idol of the unknown God. And he jumps into this discussion.

01:16:08

So the whole goal of this is he's talking about the issue of their idols.

01:16:14

Is that true or false? Yes. That's right. Okay, hold on.

01:16:19

So the central argument that he's making is about idols versus the true

01:16:25

God. Correct. No, he uses his goal is to preach the gospel of these guys.

01:16:31

So he takes the opportunity of this situation with the idols that he was noticing to preach the gospel to them.

01:16:38

And in that course of the preaching the gospel, he says certain statements and he uses certain arguments, and this one particular argument has to do with the fact that a father is like their children are like their fathers.

01:16:56

That's he's counting on that fact that we know children are like their parents. He uses that fact to make his argument.

01:17:04

You know, since we are God's children, then we know we shouldn't think that the divine nature is like wood and stone because we're his children.

01:17:13

Listen, let's walk through this. You're assuming that now let's see if the text actually says what you say. So. He starts by talking about the idols, correct?

01:17:24

Yeah. Okay. He ends with talking about the idols, correct? Well, he ends it, you know, in verse 29, he's talking about the idols, right?

01:17:37

Okay. So the issue is their idolatry, correct? Exactly. Okay. Which is what

01:17:43

I said earlier and you said I was wrong. So the issue is their idolatry, and he's trying to share the gospel.

01:17:50

And the essential thing that he has to get through with them is their idolatry. Right. He's got to get to explaining that their idolatry, them creating a carved image, no different than God did in the

01:18:03

Old Testament, where he talks about these idols that are made with hands and have eyes that can't see and ears that can't hear.

01:18:11

It's the same argument being made here with the contrasting of beings that have a spirit versus something that's made out of a chunk of wood.

01:18:22

A chunk of wood doesn't have a spirit. Therefore, it can't be divine.

01:18:28

It can't be God because it doesn't have a divine spirit. It can't be divine without the spirit.

01:18:34

Correct. Well, you know, I don't know exactly how

01:18:40

Paul is using it, but look, it's obvious he was walking around and there's all these idols, imagine statues, whatever, all this stuff, these are artworks walking around and Paul is like, now he's telling them, look, you guys, even your own poets have said we are his offspring.

01:18:58

And and look, since we are his children, God, we shouldn't think that the divine nature is like, you know, look around you.

01:19:06

Look at all this. God isn't like this. We are his children. Look at us, because you can see us.

01:19:13

We're not like these things. You know, God is not like those things. It's he's counting on the similarity of children with their fathers to prove the point.

01:19:25

OK, so he's he's clearly using it as a springboard. OK, just like he used the springboard of the idol to the unknown

01:19:34

God. OK, so his emphasis. So this is the whole point.

01:19:40

When you do hermeneutics, you don't emphasize on the minor things and make it the major things.

01:19:45

And that's exactly what you're doing. His main argument is the idols. Your main argument is the one word offspring.

01:19:54

So you're taking something that's a minor point, reading into it a whole bunch and then making that the major point.

01:20:00

That's not the point of this text. The point of this text is about idolatry.

01:20:06

And so as long as you make the minor and so this is the rule of interpretation that you're breaking, that you are taking the minor and making it the major and you're taking the major and making it a minor, you don't do that.

01:20:19

When you interpret scripture, you focus on the major. And that becomes the the argument that gets made.

01:20:27

The other things are supportive of that. So the supporting thing that God is a spirit and idols are not.

01:20:36

Is supportive, but there's not anything here where he's saying that we have a divine nature in any way you're reading that in, it doesn't say we being the offspring having a divine nature.

01:20:49

No, that's not what it says. It says being then God's offspring, we ought not think.

01:20:57

So that's a totally different thing now. We ought not think that the divine being is like gold.

01:21:03

In other words, the argument being is if we are made in his image with a spirit. That's what you already said means to be in the image of God, that we have some of his attributes.

01:21:14

One of them being that we are have a spirit and are spiritual like God is spirit and spiritual.

01:21:20

That's what we already established is it means to be made in the image of God. Therefore, we being a spirit should know that God would have a spirit and not be something made of purely physical things without a spirit.

01:21:33

Very simple. That's that's the meaning. But why do I say that's the meaning? Because the major thing is on the idol, not what you're reading into it as that we are divine nature.

01:21:45

There's no way that says we have a divine nature because we're his offspring. I can't fathom that you're you're missing

01:21:51

Paul's argument and comparing the children to the father. You do see that, don't you?

01:21:57

That you know, because nowhere does it say anything about children and father anywhere in here, does it? It says twice we are his offspring.

01:22:05

That doesn't say children of father, does it? No, if you're assuming a meaning of offspring, aren't you?

01:22:15

I'm an offspring as a child. Yeah. Is that the only meaning of it? I think it's pretty clear.

01:22:22

That's what Paul means here. No, it isn't. Pretty. See, this is this is you just did it. You assume the thing that you want it to say.

01:22:31

You assume it. Oh, it's pretty clear. Well, that's not really always clear. Well, for Paul's argument to be understandable, that's what we have to assume.

01:22:44

OK, so it has to assume that. I think for Paul's argument to work, because what he's doing is how about you turn to Mark 9 29 and I'm going to I'm going to give you the same word used here that you said it's it's this is the only meaning.

01:23:08

It's the word kind when it says, and he said to them, this kind is kind, cannot be driven out by anything but prayer.

01:23:16

That's the word. Same word for offspring. Does that mean divine nature? Does that mean does that mean sorry, does that mean a father and son?

01:23:26

That bothers? No, it doesn't. I don't believe so. I know it wouldn't. So therefore, we know that from the context.

01:23:35

Hold on, John. Therefore, the fact that this word is used elsewhere with a totally different meaning than the way you're using it.

01:23:46

Says that that your conclusion is wrong, that this is not the only way that we can see this.

01:23:54

Because Mark 9 uses it differently, Mark uses the same word. And he's but context, we determine a word's meaning by context.

01:24:06

That's right. And you're reading into it something that it is not saying. There's nothing in here in the context that says that it had to do with physical.

01:24:16

Father, son, as you used it, there's nothing in here. I asked you what in here is father, son.

01:24:23

Now, look, the fact is he points out that we are children and where does it say that?

01:24:30

Verse 28, I think, and 29 of Acts 17, where? Verse 20, at the end of verse 28, you know, first, when it were in him, we live and move and have our being.

01:24:41

As also some of your own poets have said, for we are also his offspring. We're also his kind.

01:24:49

We are his offspring. You know, we already showed you that that word can be interpreted kind, not.

01:24:56

Yeah, it can be. But if you interpret it, then Paul's argument doesn't make any sense.

01:25:02

Sure does. No, it makes perfect sense because I'll ask this again, and I want you to show me exactly where father and son is in the text, you say it's there with the word offspring.

01:25:15

That does not mean what you think it means. That's the whole problem. I just gave you 929 where the word is used and it doesn't mean father, son.

01:25:28

It means kind and it's translated kind. In fact, it's translated kind very often. Well, it's is it translated kind here?

01:25:37

It could be. No, is it here? That's a translation that's a translator's thing, but I'm going back to that.

01:25:45

But these translators thought children are offspring. No, they didn't. How do you know they thought children and offspring children are mentioned anywhere here?

01:25:54

I'm saying they thought so now you have translators. John, do you see the problem you're having?

01:26:01

No, Matt, would you let me finish a question, Andrew? I said or make a point. I said it was obvious that the translators thought offspring was a better choice than kind in this place.

01:26:15

Now, are you going to argue with me about that? Yes, I just did, because you're assuming that.

01:26:20

So I'm assuming that because they use that word. Yeah, I'm assuming if they would have wanted to use the word kind, they would have if they thought that was better, they would have used kind.

01:26:32

John, John. Yes. You got to relax. Now, listen, this word is used as offspring only two times out of the 20 times in the entire

01:26:42

New Testament, two times as a translated offspring. These are the only two most often translated as kind or kinds.

01:26:53

So the reality is you have the burden of proof because you're saying this is its meaning, and yet it's more often translated as kinds or family or people.

01:27:04

It's not translated. What not any. Hold on, listen, it's not anywhere translated as father, son, as you say it is.

01:27:13

So you said this proves it's father, son. And yet there's nothing in the text that says about father and son.

01:27:21

You know, his argument demands it. No, it doesn't.

01:27:26

Don't point out a translation of Acts 17, 28 and 29, where they use the word kind.

01:27:33

I don't need to go to a translation when I'm looking at what the Greek word is. And I'm giving you what the how the

01:27:39

Greek is. So the Greek word does not relate to father, son there.

01:27:45

OK, so if it does, then you've got a big problem with what you're arguing from Mark nine.

01:27:51

So listen, listen, I've already showed you the word kind. If you want to translate a kind that fits in fine because the issue is whether it is a spiritual, the immaterial versus the material.

01:28:04

That's the issue. That's the issue Paul is arguing. That's the main issue. So saying that we are his offspring in kind has nothing to do with father and son, which your whole argument is based on.

01:28:16

Now, there's nothing but other than the word offspring that you assume a reading of it.

01:28:23

The word offspring doesn't only mean what you're implying.

01:28:30

Therefore, this does not teach father, son. You're assuming that that's the whole thing

01:28:37

I'm trying to show you. You're assuming that. But you can't answer the question why we shouldn't think that why we should not think he says we ought not to think that the divine nature is like gold or silver.

01:28:50

Now, why should we think that if we're looking at a person? Well, we shouldn't think that a block of wood, a piece of gold, silver or stone have a spiritual nature.

01:29:06

There's nothing spirit about them. Where is it? Where does it say that about the spirit, a spiritual nature?

01:29:13

Well, OK, that's a fair question. So it says that they're not divine. That's the argument, is it not?

01:29:23

That that these things are not why these idols are not divine. Is that not the argument he's making?

01:29:30

No, the argument is we are his children. Since we are his children, children aren't mentioned anywhere in here.

01:29:36

OK, read that in. He's he's saying, oh, look, I'm doing I'm telling you, we are his offspring.

01:29:43

He's saying, John, hold on. Yeah, hold on. I, you know, as someone who at least is a

01:29:51

Pelagian, you may be in the sinless perfectionist camp, which if that is the case, then you keep sinning by getting angry.

01:29:59

So you got to stop that. I'm not angry at all because you'd be losing your salvation and you can't get that back.

01:30:06

I'm not. Yeah, I'm not one of those. Here's the thing. You're assuming the meaning of offspring, ignoring what the word means everywhere else in Scripture and how it's used now.

01:30:22

You that's not how you interpret. So I've shown you that the one you violated, one principle of interpreting the minor as the major major as the minor.

01:30:30

You're you're violating another. That was your opinion. No, I already established it with you that this is what the main thing was talking about now.

01:30:40

OK, so the main his main argument is not about idols. He's showing his main argument is that God is not like an idol, and we can tell that by looking at his children.

01:30:52

No, no, no, no. You add that extra part on because, you know, you're wrong. There's nothing in here about children.

01:30:58

And the word doesn't mean children. Offspring means children. No, it doesn't.

01:31:05

That's what the poet was talking about. That's not what this word means. What was the poet talking about,

01:31:12

Andrew? Well, I'm not Matt, you might know better than I, because I'm not familiar with the the the poem that it came from.

01:31:20

The. Matt, you know, it's erotist, but I don't know the context of the whole thing.

01:31:26

He was quoting this in order to witness of the pagans, and he used pagan theology to try and get a door opened in order to talk about paganism because they had the same view that John here has.

01:31:40

Yeah, a lot of them did. So, I mean, the fact is you're saying offspring means.

01:31:49

Children, I'll challenge you to go to Mark 9 29 again and tell me so.

01:31:55

And they said to them, this offspring cannot be driven out by anything but prayer.

01:32:01

It doesn't mean offspring in Mark. Same word. You're saying the word means children.

01:32:08

Words have, you know, semantic ranges. There's nothing in here that says that forces it to be about children.

01:32:16

Why don't you pull up BDAG and see what it says about that word in Act 17? It has a lot of different things, one of which is kind.

01:32:27

No, it won't say nation, people's class, kind. That's it.

01:32:33

No, BDAG will put like it'll if there is a I just gave you BDAG. No, it'll it should list a reference to act 1728 and show what word is used there, like it it'll it'll it'll explain the different meanings that it can use, and then it'll group those verse those those texts under each.

01:32:58

You know how it works. Right. So what is it saying about what form of the word should be used in Act 17?

01:33:08

Uh, they have it as a sterile. I can't even say the word.

01:33:20

Ancestral stock, descendant, high priestly descendant is the main subject.

01:33:28

Ancestral stock or so. So that's that's not saying there has to be children, high priestly descent.

01:33:36

Don't don't forget to throw that in there. That's your meaning, is it not?

01:33:43

Descendant. So that only has one one argument, right?

01:33:50

Descendant can only be one thing. I'm just look, the translators use offspring, not kind.

01:33:56

And it's to it's to show that. OK, so to say, I think, OK, so it's depending on the relationship between children and God.

01:34:07

No. So hold it. Are we descendant from God? Did God create us? Yes. Then we're descended from God.

01:34:16

Well, and we're not his children. Look, I you look,

01:34:23

Paul is the one making this argument. Yes, I'm making your argument. That's the whole point.

01:34:28

You're reading into it. So, well, I think if someone is not stuck against seeing it, and you might be a little, you know, might understand what you have,

01:34:42

John, and we're going to we'll go on, see if anyone else has questions, you know, after. But you have the problem of having confirmation bias.

01:34:51

You're starting with a conclusion and you only accept the information that you see that it means.

01:34:56

I've shown you how this word means different things. Even when you want to go to BDAG and say and you see that we are descendant from God.

01:35:05

It doesn't mean we're his children. John, John, one twelve makes it clear that not everyone's a child of God.

01:35:10

So we're not all children of God. So him speaking about children, if you use your argument, children of God in your argument to be referring here would violate what

01:35:20

John one twelve says, because that would say that these people are not children of God, not believing since they don't believe that that would just be to misunderstand the context of John and understand he's you know, he's talking about everything with you.

01:35:33

Is that everyone? Everything is to misunderstand. And no, no. Everything with me is to understand the context where we're at.

01:35:40

No, you're not. Not to look at this context here. You're not going to jump over to John and say, well, hey, it means this over here.

01:35:48

So it can't mean this over here. No, this is a poor hermeneutic. No, that's actually the proper hermeneutic that you would build theology based on what all of Scripture says.

01:35:58

So the phrase children of God, the way you're using it is used there and says that not everyone is a child of God.

01:36:05

That's a clear teaching. So there's nothing here that says child of God. And so what you end up with and this is the thing and this is where, you know,

01:36:14

John, my heart breaks for you because you are so blinded with your heresy.

01:36:20

I it breaks. I just hate the fact that you continue to believe this stuff and get so hard set on it with so many people that have tried to teach you and you say you're still learning, but you turn a deaf ear to the truth and it's concerning.

01:36:40

You're Andrew, if you could bring an argument or a text that's properly presented and backed up.

01:36:48

There's none that you'll accept, John. There's none that you'll accept. Here's here's a clear example of it.

01:36:54

Here's a clear example of it. The contrast that Paul's making is not that we are somehow divine or that we're children of God.

01:37:05

Just from one word that you you're focusing on one word and making that everything. You're ignoring all of the context for that word, which is all about idols.

01:37:14

That's the main thing. OK, so that is about idols.

01:37:20

But it is about the fact that, you know, Paul was seeing all these idols they constructed and he's trying to tell him, look,

01:37:27

God's not like that. Even your own poets have said we are his offspring. Not like what we are his offspring, like like the wood and stone of these idols that he's looking at.

01:37:41

So how come? So I agree that that's the main thing, that we are not like wood and or God.

01:37:48

God is not like these items. OK, good. Now, there's nothing in there that that teaches that we are his sons.

01:37:58

We it says we're his offspring. And that can have multiple meanings. But in here, why is this?

01:38:06

Hold on, John. If that was the argument Paul was making, why doesn't he use the

01:38:11

Greek word that means what you're arguing? Why does he use a Greek word that more often means something that's similar?

01:38:20

That's the meaning of the word. It has similarity. Maybe it had something to do with the poet he quoted, you know, and in taking off what he said or something.

01:38:29

Oh, so maybe the poet didn't mean what you're saying either. OK, I can agree with that. No, I'm sorry.

01:38:36

But you can't get away, Andrew, from the fact that by looking at his offspring, that's how we know

01:38:42

God has a divine nature and that but the offspring, that one word is not the word that he would use if he was making your argument.

01:38:50

That's the point. So so the fact is, as Paul says, we are all his offspring.

01:38:57

What does he mean by that? OK, so there you go. We are all we are all his kind. If we are all we are all descendants, that's what you wanted to look at BDAG and that's how it's used in BDAG.

01:39:09

We are all we are all created from him. We are all in that sense, descendant now, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

01:39:20

If you're going to separate God from us like that, then that's what I'm saying. Then his argument doesn't work.

01:39:27

Really? Yes. You mean being made in the image of God, being being spiritual doesn't work with material things?

01:39:34

No, I'm saying if if if we're if if you take away the similarity of the offspring and then arguing from that to God, you don't you know, you just lose any argument at all in there.

01:39:49

That's that's what he's saying. I mean, that's the obvious import of what he's saying.

01:39:54

We are his offspring. Therefore, we know that God isn't like these things because we are his offspring.

01:40:04

And he and Paul happens to use the language of divine nature. That's the only reason I brought it up.

01:40:09

I'm you know, I'm just telling you what Paul's saying. And that's the point.

01:40:15

You're not saying what Paul's saying. You're reading into it based off of English, not the Greek. The Greek doesn't make the argument you're making.

01:40:24

If he did, he would use a different word that actually means offspring. But using it, he doesn't use the word that means that has the meaning of kind or or descendant or to be in like manner.

01:40:43

OK, you'd have to be in Paul's head to decide something like that. No, we can look at the words he uses a noun.

01:40:50

And this is right from BDAG just above. If you look just above what you wanted to to focus on.

01:40:59

Well, we'll just do this and see if we could just. Here we go.

01:41:04

We'll just share the screen so you can see it, because I know you miss stuff. But if I highlight it right there, a noun expressive of relationships of various degrees and kinds.

01:41:17

That's what this word means. This is not a word that is designed for to mean offspring as children, the way you're using it.

01:41:27

That's the point. If Paul wanted to make your argument, he would not use this word.

01:41:34

The use of this word is the proof that you are not correct because he's not using the word that makes your argument in the

01:41:44

Greek, not in the English. You're stuck on the English because it makes the argument you wish it said.

01:41:51

Paul's not making your argument because he's not using the words that would make your argument. So with that, because we only have about 15 minutes left and I get to open

01:42:00

Q &A, I'm going to bring Edison up first because he was in earlier.

01:42:07

So Edison. And I'm just going to mute you while Edison asks his question.

01:42:13

Edison, you're in. I can hear me. Yep. All right, thank you.

01:42:19

It's been very interesting as I've listened to the discussion, but I'd like to ask a question that's not related to the debate, if it's

01:42:29

OK. Yeah, go ahead. You're in a much cooler environment this time,

01:42:36

I see. I'm using a PC, I'm using a personal computer, not anymore on my tablet, but anyway,

01:42:45

I'd like to ask a question with regards to Catholicism.

01:42:53

Catholicism would argue that the scripture is not sufficient. They would argue that there's a need for the traditions and by traditions, not the letters of the fathers, not the early writings, but rather traditions.

01:43:10

I don't know what they mean by that, but I pointed to them that these traditions, are they the letters of the fathers or not?

01:43:19

And they said, no, it's a tradition. The church has been carrying throughout the existence of the

01:43:27

Christendom. And I've quoted to them 2

01:43:32

Timothy chapter 3, verse 16, that says, all scripture is breathed out by God and is profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction and for training in righteousness.

01:43:45

I asked them if we have that kind of a text with regards to the traditions.

01:43:51

And they said in response that the verse never said that scripture alone is the breath of God.

01:44:00

So they were looking for the word alone in 2 Timothy chapter 3, verse 16. I'd like to hear what

01:44:07

Brother Andrew, your comment or Brother Matt's comment with regards to their response. Matt, do you have a response to that?

01:44:20

Yeah, sure. No problem. When they say that the word alone isn't there, then they're admitting that the scriptures are inspired.

01:44:26

And they'd say, yes, OK, can they show me, just ask them to show you where tradition is inspired.

01:44:33

And they'll just say, well, the authority of the church tells you that they have sacred tradition and it's inspired. Say, how do you know that's the case?

01:44:40

Show me that in scripture, because you've admitted that the scriptures are inspired. So show me from God's authoritative work.

01:44:46

Because if they're going to say that tradition is inspired and they're saying tradition and scripture are equal and both must be considered as authoritative.

01:44:52

Since we both admit that scripture is authoritative, just say, show me from the authoritative word. They can't and they go to tradition.

01:45:00

Then you can start asking questions about their tradition. How does tradition work and what is sacred tradition?

01:45:07

And I have on CARM, I have a whole bunch of questions related to the issue of tradition, sacred tradition on CARM.

01:45:14

Let's see if I can find it really fast. Sacred tradition. Let's see if I can find it.

01:45:22

Questions for Catholics on sacred tradition. There we go. And so I went through and I just started asking, you know, what exactly is sacred tradition?

01:45:30

How is it declared to be sacred? What does it mean when the church determines that something is true?

01:45:36

Sacred tradition. Did the apostles, did they tend for there to be sacred tradition or is sacred tradition something invented by the church?

01:45:45

And I have a bunch of verses listed. And then I got a bunch of other questions dealing with the transmission to the centuries.

01:45:52

How is it transmitted to the centuries? If sacred traditions transmitted to the centuries orally, or is it by record or divine revelation?

01:45:59

What is it? Start asking these kind of questions and you'll find out they don't have any answers. Well, one of the things

01:46:05

I'll ask, I'll say, does Bishop Bob talk to Bishop Frank in the Vatican and say, hey, do you hear the one about Mary walking down the road?

01:46:12

Oh, no. Tell me, is it sacred tradition? How do they know it's sacred tradition? How do they know?

01:46:19

Is it oral? How do they know these things are reliable? How do they know? Well, they say the authority of the church tells them it is.

01:46:24

Where'd they get that? From sacred tradition. Well, you know, it's just there's all kinds of problems here and I just start asking questions like that.

01:46:31

And I have, you know, this link questions for Catholics on sacred tradition.

01:46:37

I have sixty five questions, sixty five issues. Let's see if the scriptures are included.

01:46:45

Yeah. So there's questions, you know, and our first Corinthians 11, 12 or two, second

01:46:50

Thessalonians 2, 15, second Thessalonians 3, 6, various issues of tradition go through the scriptures. There's a lot there.

01:46:56

And that's how I recommend that you start cross examining them on this. And you'll find they don't have answers.

01:47:05

That's good. I've noticed a circularity of their reasoning when they said that they have to follow what they believe because the church said so.

01:47:18

And how do we know that the church is true? Well, because they contend that that's the only that's the church of Christ founded.

01:47:27

So we can question that. Well, they say that. That's another claim. How do you know the church? Jesus founded the

01:47:32

Roman Catholic Church. But I say you make a claim, but how do you know he founded it?

01:47:37

That's what he founded. And they're going to say, well, because their papacy, their authority, the papacy and things like that, that's what they're going to do.

01:47:46

Right. You know, no, it's it's it. Trust me, you can do it.

01:47:52

It's not a big deal. So Catholic authority, let's see, I'm going to do that on my site here.

01:47:59

Does it have the authority of Christ? This is one of the things. Here's another article.

01:48:05

Does the Roman Catholic Church have the authority of Christ? This is what the

01:48:10

Bible says in Luke five. But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on Earth to forgive sins, he said, the paralytic,

01:48:18

I say to you, get up and walk. And in Matthew 10, one through eight,

01:48:23

Jesus summoned his 12 disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits to cast them out, to heal every kind of disease and every kind of sickness, heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons freely, receive freely, give.

01:48:36

So you say, OK, so this is the authority that's demonstrated in Scripture that the apostolic authority as is given by Christ, they can say, yes, right.

01:48:44

And to the apostles. Yeah. And then down to the priesthood. Right. Yes, that's right. And the magisterium.

01:48:50

OK, good. So we know that the authority that Jesus gave them, the disciples, was to heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons.

01:49:00

So does the Roman Catholic Church do this? And they're going to say, well, yeah, the Roman Catholic Church does it all the time. OK. And so just like it did in the

01:49:07

Bible. Right. Yeah, that's right. OK, so Jesus raised the dead on command and he came up and touched the coffin and bears came to halt.

01:49:16

And he said, young man, I say to you, arise. A dead man sat up and began to speak. Jesus gave back to his mother. Peter raised the dead on command.

01:49:23

You go to Acts 9 40 to 41. Peter healed on command. Acts 9 34.

01:49:29

Peter or Paul healed on command. Acts 14 8 through 10. They'll say, does your Roman Catholic Church do this?

01:49:35

Let's just see that they have the apostolic authority. I want to see them exercise it the same way the disciples did or the apostles did.

01:49:42

And they don't. So the Catholic Church claims it has the authority of the apostles.

01:49:49

But when but can the pope and the bishops do what Jesus and the apostles did by command, claim certain healings, resurrections and things like that?

01:49:58

And no, they can't. So how do we know they have the authority? It's just a claim.

01:50:07

But I actually noticed, you know, the verse that they were denying in the first Timothy chapter, second

01:50:18

Timothy chapter three, verse 16. When you notice verse 17, it says there that the man of God will be fully equipped.

01:50:29

In the King James rendering, it says there that the man of God may be perfect, certainly furnished with all good works.

01:50:36

So the scripture itself can make a man of God perfect. In verse 15 in the same chapter, the scripture itself can make you wise of the salvation, so I don't really see why they are denying or even the word, the word alone in that verse is not necessary for me.

01:50:57

I'm not sure the question is about the verses. No, I was just saying that I don't see how they don't see the sufficiency of the scriptures in second

01:51:08

Timothy chapter three, when in verse 15, it says there that the scriptures are able to make you wise in the salvation.

01:51:17

And in verse 16, it is, you know, all teachings, training and rebuke is there.

01:51:23

And verse 17, it says it can make you perfect. The word is not perfect in the

01:51:29

Greek. It's it's artios and it means complete. So, you know,

01:51:35

I wouldn't say perfect. I understand the sentiment when you use the word perfect has certain meanings to it that then become a problem.

01:51:42

But it's artios and the word telios deals with the word perfect. OK, I see.

01:51:49

Well, I was just using the rendering of the King James. Yeah, it's best to stay with the

01:51:54

King James when you do apologetics. It's well, anyway,

01:52:00

I don't mind, but I got one last question. Sure. It's it's still with the same

01:52:07

Catholicism issue. Then in line with traditions, they would call.

01:52:14

What was that? Yeah, there's a verse in, I think, that second first Timothy.

01:52:25

No, no, no. Second Thessalonians two fifteen. Oh, yeah. Word or by letters.

01:52:31

Hold fast to the tradition, which says there. So they were insisting that all of the apostles were teaching, not through the scriptures alone, which is later, but also verbally or by that's where they get the non -written traditions that are only exclusive in the church.

01:52:54

How do we comment on that verse? Read the context. What's it about? I'll help you out.

01:53:03

It's about the return of Christ. OK, and so, yeah, that's what it's about.

01:53:09

If you go to the first like the first part of the of the chapter. All right. It says the request, you brethren, regard to the coming of our

01:53:18

Lord Jesus Christ. All right. And the verse three, let no one deceive you. OK, the Antichrist has got to come first.

01:53:25

The mystery of lawlessness is still at work. Verse seven, verse 10, and it'd be with deception and wickedness.

01:53:31

For this reason, God will send a looting influence. Verse 11, verse 13. But we should always give thanks to God for you, brother, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation.

01:53:41

And he called you through our gospel. Verse 15. So, brethren, stand firm and hold the tradition we've taught.

01:53:47

It's about the return of Christ, and he's just telling them, look, stand firm and what we've told you already.

01:53:53

OK, and that's what's going on there. Read the context. Yeah, I've read on this.

01:54:00

Go through and read about the tradition verses and things like that. Yeah, I'll I'll check that one out.

01:54:08

Yeah, that's been very helpful to me personally throughout the years.

01:54:13

I've looked to it, I think, way back to 2013 or 12. And it's been very helpful to me personally.

01:54:21

Thank you. There's a lot there. I'm glad it's been there to help. For now, it's still there.

01:54:27

But, you know, praise God. So it may not last too much longer in this country.

01:54:37

You know, I'm expecting a time when they're going to tell you you have to take that down. Yeah. All right, well,

01:54:46

I look forward to actually meeting you in person, I hope, this year, I send you that link, so.

01:54:53

Yeah, on Facebook. Yeah, I'm not sure if you know our pastor, Brother Mel Kaparos, where Andrew is with Living Word Cebu.

01:55:03

OK, no, I don't I don't know that I know him. I may have met him once, but I don't know. What's what's the name again?

01:55:13

Brother Mel Kaparos. Mel Kaparos. Well, I'll try to remember the name. So I'll ask

01:55:19

I'll ask the host and see if if if I usually am

01:55:25

Living Word Cebu. Yeah, Living Word Christian Church. Yeah, because I know Living Orders, Living Orders, I think

01:55:32

Asia's is involved with putting this together. So so with that,

01:55:41

I guess, Matt, we didn't get to talk a whole lot about new articles or anything going up on CARM, but you have anything on CARM that, uh, no, all right.

01:55:52

So so, folks, I will say, you know, just keep praying for Matt and his wife. His wife still still recovering from, you know, surgery.

01:56:02

That was a long time ago. And so you still be praying for them. It is the end of the year.

01:56:10

This is actually a time where most at least American ministries like CARM and Striving Fraternity make much of their their finances.

01:56:20

So if there are people who are looking to give to for the end year tax deduction,

01:56:27

I don't know too many folks that donate to Striving Fraternity just for the tax deduction, but but if folks want to donate, there's two ways you can donate.

01:56:36

If you go to CARM, just go to CARM .org and there is a donate button there on the right side.

01:56:44

I think if I remember correctly, it's a big red button. Let's take a look. See if it says donate blue, blue.

01:56:50

Ah, OK. Oh, it's green. It's green. Oh, it's green. Mine says it's light blue.

01:56:57

Yeah. So it's and it's not on the it's on the it's right in the middle on the front. It says donate to CARM. That's a good place to go.

01:57:03

Also, you can go to Striving Fraternity dot org slash donate. Here's the thing, folks.

01:57:08

Both Matt and I do this full time. We rely on monthly donations.

01:57:16

They count a lot more than just a one time donation. CARM has five full time employees that takes more than just a one time donation.

01:57:27

So if there's ways you can if you find this show beneficial, one way you can help us is by donating monthly.

01:57:36

Another way you can help would be by sharing this. If you're watching the YouTube video or if you're watching it on or listening to it,

01:57:44

I should say on podcast, if you're listening to it on the podcast and if you're not, go to whatever podcast app you have and just look for Apologetics Live, it'll come up.

01:57:54

But on podcast, you can share that as well. That's a great way of just letting us know that there's others who are interested in and helping to get more people listening in and getting some teaching.

01:58:10

And that's some ways you can help support us. Obviously, pray. That's important.

01:58:17

We believe in prayer very much. And so we need your prayers. We also try to do things with partnering with other groups.

01:58:26

And so, John, I'm going to ask you, because we partner with you each week. We do the after show through the council.

01:58:33

Is there going to be an after show tonight? Because I know you got to go to work. Unfortunately, I'm at work right now, so I won't be able to host the show tonight.

01:58:42

I tried to see if I can get somebody else to do it, but no one seemed to step up. So there may not be one going on tonight.

01:58:50

OK, so we partner with the guys at the council to put on the after show. The after show is usually where we get.

01:58:56

And this would have been a lively after show with John and everyone in the council to go back and forth, it would've been fun.

01:59:05

I hope next week, Matt, there's a guy on Facebook who came into one of the groups that you and I manage,

01:59:14

Christian Apologetics, and making all kinds of arguments that there's always contradictions in the

01:59:19

Bible. I told him I'd answer those contradictions on my rap report podcast. I said, give me your best ones.

01:59:27

Give me the things. I mean, I don't want you to say I was cherry picking. Give me the ones you think are the best ones. And he couldn't quite do that.

01:59:34

In fact, he kept saying he was giving lots of challenges. I asked him to come in, but he told me the link wasn't working.

01:59:42

And yet we can see here the room is filled with people that the link worked for. So I don't know if he's just a keyboard warrior, but maybe

01:59:50

Paul will come in next week and he wants to, you know, he can give you his reasons for his disbelief in God and we could see how valid those are.

02:00:00

So hopefully we'll have that next week. But until then, just remember to strive to make today an eternal day for the glory of God.