Calvinism Debated | Apologetics Live 0010 | Matt Slick HD 720p

Opening Banter and Show Introduction

This is Apologetics Live with Matt Slick and Andrew Rappaport, part of the Christian Podcast Community.

All right, we are live. This is Apologetics Live. We are here with our resident apologist, Matt Slick from CARM .org, a great place to go for all of your apologetics questions. We also are going to have with us Don Johnson from the 80s.

He was in a lot of the movies. Oh, wait, no, no, sorry. This is John. John Johnson. Sorry. But it was close, close enough. But he is a Pelagian. Matt is a Calvinist. And we are going to start off, before we do open Q &A, we're going to start off with...

John wanted to discuss in a friendly debate, not a formal debate, but a friendly discussion debate type, the topics of total depravity and original sin. After that, if you guys think John didn't do a good enough job defending your views, those of you who are Pelagian or semi-Pelagian, you can come in and take your shots with Matt and see how well you do.

So, John, you're going to have to make sure that you do yourself justice right here. But for folks who, you know, who do follow us or used to follow the old show Matt and I did, they'll know John. He was actually the guy that was driving down the road.

Matt, I don't know if you remember this, but John was the guy that was driving down the road. You told him to put his hand in front of his face and on camera, he actually slapped himself. Oh, yeah. I remember that.

That's good. That had to be one of the funniest things. You're like, put your hand right in front of your face. He did it. So, John's a very good sport with that, but we want to first, before we get to that, just let folks know, we want to give you some plugs for you to check out karm .org for different apologetics things you're going to see out there.

That's the ministry that Matt works for and is the founder of, and I'm the founder and work for Striving for Eternity. You can go to strivingforeturning .org and check that out. We'll give you some folks to know that we are going to, we're hoping to open the Christian podcast community up to the public, to podcasters who want to be on that.

Hopefully in January, late January, we're going to be doing a controlled introduction, and so we want to do it slow and make sure we have all the kinks worked out. But if you're a podcaster and you want to be part of that, you can contact, just contact me at strivingforeturning .org.

If you're a listener to podcasts, well, just go to Christian podcast community on whatever podcast app you have. You'll get this show and all the others if you want them. So, Matt, you know, can you bring us up to speed with how you and John came about with this discussion?

Because I know you're the one that posted it. Something about a Facebook page or something, you know, it's been so long ago, a few days ago. And I do so many things that I can't remember all the particulars, but it was like, oh yeah, let's talk.

And here we are. And you're always up to a challenge. So well, lately, not so much the way things have been, but I am trying to set up a debate with a Muslim now, but we'll see.

That would be a fun one. All right. So, because this is going to be an informal and we didn't actually say who wants to go first or, you know, do we want to do one of the topics at a time or do we want to?

One topic at a time. Go ahead. Okay. So, John, why don't you start us off? Some folks, why don't you at least introduce yourself? I don't think everyone may remember you from the old days when we were on the other show.

Total Depravity, Original Sin, and the Image of God

Yeah. My name is John Johnson. I'm also go by the Irenic Pelagian. Some people know me by that name. I still hang out with most of these Council of Google Plus guys on occasion, like I see John here. But yeah, I'm just a Christian.

You know, I've gone through phases of, you know, my theology and trying to understand it. And, you know, I went through a Calvinistic phase early on and I just, I came to understand that it's, I guess, you know, all I would say is I think that Calvinism seems to me to be a system of proof text.

So whenever I find someone making an assertion about Calvinism and then they'll point to a text, it never seems to actually say what the Calvinist wants it to say. Or at least there's, you know, other ways to see it that are, you know, less, do less damage to the name of God, you know, so my issue with Calvinism is I believe it impugns the character of God.

So I guess if Matt would want to, you know, steadily that total depravity is, you know, just a non-biblical doctrine, you know, I believe men are born essentially as Adam and Eve were created before they fell.

They're born, they're on the path to, you know, they're born on the path. And then, you know, when they reach a certain age, then, you know, they'll sin and they'll leave the path. So that's kind of how I see our anthropology, you know, I look at Jesus, you know, and I see that he was a human being made like us.

And so that's where I kind of start with my anthropology, you know, I don't think Jesus had a sin nature, the Bible I don't think ever talks about a sin nature. I don't believe sin, the Bible ever indicates that sin has the power to change our nature.

So I believe we have human natures and our natures are subject to sin and we can become slaves to sin and we do. So, I don't know, those are some of the issues I have with Calvinism. I mean, if you would want to go to a text, I would like to look at one text at a time, you know, I'm kind of familiar, I think, with, you know, any text you'll go to, so.

Well, I would just ask you to demonstrate from the text the idea that people are born sinless as Adam and Eve were before they fell. That's a statement you made, so show me some scripture.

Okay, so we see in Romans 9, Jacob and Esau, when they're in the womb, they have not done anything good or evil. That's one place we could look at.

Well, what does it say there that they're born in the same state as Adam and Eve were before the fall? Where does it say that in the text? Because you just said the Calvinists give you a proof text, but it doesn't say what you say.

And then you just now, the first thing you did was exactly what you accused Calvinists of doing. So show me where Romans 9, 9 -13, where it says that Jacob, you know, Jacob didn't do anything good or bad.

Show me where it says in the text that they have a sinless nature.

Well, it seems to me, you know, I just have, you know, my point is they have a human nature. If you want to suggest they have a sinful nature, some kind of sin nature, that'd be up to you to show. Oh, wait a minute.

Wait a minute. If the Bible doesn't teach it, it's pretty hard to show where that is. Are you a sinner? Have you sinned? Yeah.

Do you have a human nature? I do. Then you're a human that you've sinned. So there you go. You just refuted your own self.

No. Okay. So, all right. So let me ask you a question, Matt. So Adam and Eve, when they were created, before they sinned, would you say they were, they had not done anything good or evil?

That's correct. Well, I don't know about good or evil, because that's a more technically difficult question to answer than just saying good or evil, because what is good, what is evil. But Romans 9 talks about some stuff in the context of after the fall of Adam and Eve.

Can you hear me okay? Yeah, I can hear myself. So, you know, to say that, well, they hadn't done anything good or evil, was to say that they weren't doing anything good in their worship and adoration of God in the garden, because they were walking with Him.

So that wouldn't make sense, really. Okay. So, like I said, you asked for some verses. I just, you know, that was one I want to just, you know, we could point to that.

Okay. But that verse doesn't say that people are born with a nature that's the same as Adam and Eve before they sinned.

It doesn't say that in Romans 9. Right. But it does say they haven't done anything good or evil, and that the point Paul is making is that God made this choice when the kids were innocent, you know, before they had done anything good or evil.

Or to say they were innocent. Okay.

I'm implying that. So, all right. Another... Wait a minute. You're the one who set the stage and said that the verses you quote, by the Calvinist quote, it doesn't say that. You keep doing the exact same thing that you accuse Calvinists of doing.

Oh, okay. See, Matt, you're the...

I opened this up telling you I had objections to your view. Okay. And I told you why. Okay. So, you asked me why I think, you know, kids are born... You know, there's a lot of reasons. You know, I mentioned first, you know, that Jesus was born.

You know, we have the same nature that Jesus had when he was born. He's divine. You're saying we have a divine nature? We do have a divine nature. I mean, as Luke describes it in Acts 17. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

We have a divine nature. So, we're gods? No, but we have the divine nature.

We share... How do we have a divine nature if we're not gods? Because we're children of God. We share the divine nature. You carry the divine nature. Not that we... So, what do you mean by we have a divine nature?

Well, I mean, like in Acts 17, Paul uses the fact that children, you know, we have the divine nature to show that God isn't like wood and stone and, you know, things like that. Acts 17. Let me see. Yeah.

It's going to be after verse, you know, 22. It's in this section. 22 and following. Yeah. It's verse 29. It says, therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not try to think that the divine nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by the art of man's devising.

Truly, these times, you know, so what he's going to go on to say is by looking at God's children, you can see that he's got a divine nature, not a... Are we born with his divine nature? Yeah. Well, we must be because this is talking about all men, all people.

So people, when they're born, are divine.

Well, I'm saying that we share the divine nature.

What does it mean to share the divine nature? You're saying that all people, when they're born, share the divine nature. What does that mean?

Share. What divine nature? God's divine nature? Well, I can't think of any other divine nature than God's nature.

Okay, so then all people who are conceived and born are sharing the divine nature. What does it mean to share the divine nature, then? I'm just not sure what you mean by that.

Yeah, you know, I don't have all the answers, Matt, but it sounds like...

If you don't know what that means, then you shouldn't be saying it.

Well, the divine nature seems to be indicating that human beings, and, you know, in their created person, share the divine nature. I would assume it has something to do with our being God imagers. But, you know, that's...

I'm just saying, Paul makes the argument, he says that we have the divine nature. Now, so you'd have to ask Paul, what does he mean by that?

Where does he say we have a divine nature? It doesn't say that in Acts 17, 29. Being then the children of God, we ought to not think that the divine nature is like gold or silver or stone. Where does it say we have a divine nature?

Yeah, okay, so just let me read the whole... Because it's the argument he makes. So, verse 24, God, who made the world and everything in it, since he is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands, nor is he worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed anything, since he gives to all life, breath, and all things.

And he has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on the face of the earth, and has determined their pre-appointed times, and the boundaries of their dwellings, so that they should seek the Lord in the hope that they might grope for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us.

For in him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, for we are also his offspring. Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the divine nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man's devising.

So, since we are the offspring of God, Paul says, we ought not to think that the divine nature is like gold or silver. He's making the argument God's nature is like our nature.

This is what his argument is. God's infinite divine nature is like our fallen nature?

I'm just telling you the argument Paul is making, Matt. He's proving that God is not like these idols made of wood and stone and such, because you can see we're God's children. He just made that point in the argument, just as your own poets have said, we are God's offspring.

He affirms that, so we are his children. Therefore, he says, based on the fact that we are God's children, we know that God isn't like wood and stone. Do you see the argument?

Yeah, in other words, the divine nature is different than gold and silver and stone. So where does it say that we're born with a divine nature?

No, it says that we know that God has a divine nature because we can see the children of God.

So where does it say that children are born with a divine nature in them?

Matt, it's built into the argument. If you don't see it, you don't see it. That's fine. We can move on.

Well, wait a minute. I'm just going off what you said, the tone. You said that the problem with Calvinists is they take these verses, they quote things, proof texting, but they don't say what the Calvinists say they say.

And here, every single time quoted a verse, it's the same thing.

No, I just explained that. It's in the argument. I laid it out. The divine nature is, that's how you know. God is divine, by looking at his children. Do you get it? So if I can look at your children, I would know something about you by looking at your children, Matt.

No, no, no. Something about God, you said, divine nature, then you switch it to me. So you're saying that if I look at my children, then you'd know about God's divinity by looking at my kids?

Yeah. See, verse 28, For in him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, for we are also his offspring.

Right? He's quoting a pagan philosopher and he's trying to witness to the unbelievers and trying to get a common bond with them. And they believed in bowing before different gods as wood, stone, and things like that.

And he says, no, the divine nature is not like that. It doesn't say that the divine nature is in us when we're born.

No. How is it Paul is proving that God isn't like wood and stone?

By saying the divine nature, we ought not to think that the divine nature is like gold, silver, and stone.

Why shouldn't we think that? He made an argument that shows why we shouldn't think that.

Because God is not like that. He's just stating the fact.

No, it's because of the offspring, his children. You can look at the children of God that are spread all over the world.

He's talking to the unbelievers and using a pagan poet in order to connect with them. So being the children of God, all of us. Now, biblically, the children of God, you go to John 112, as many as received him, to them he gave the right to be called the children of God.

So we have Romans 8, we have the issue of adoption. What he's doing here is something theologically different. He's doing evangelism. He's simply trying to connect with them and show a commonality. What if your own poet said this?

Well, being then, from what your poet says, the children of God, we ought not think that the divine nature is like gold, silver, or stone. An image formed by the heart or the bed. What he's saying is, hey, look, we should know this, that the divine nature is not like the simple physical things.

No, it's not as simple as that, man. You're reading way too much into it.

No, it's not as simple as that. You're ignoring the fact that, look at verse 26, and he has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth. Right? So this isn't, this is everyone.

This isn't distinguishing God's creation.

Are you saying everyone's a child of God?

Now, hold on. And he says, and has determined their pre-appointed times and the boundaries of their dwelling. So all across the globe, he's determined where people will live, when they will live. Good Calvinism.

Good. He's done that so that, verse 27, so that they should seek the Lord in the hope that they might grow for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us. Now, that's all-inclusive. God is not far from each of us.

That's okay.

We're talking about the divine nature in children that you're born with.

That's what we're talking about. Right now, we're just talking about the children. We're talking about mankind. The verse doesn't say what you say it says. So maybe you want to try another verse. No, no.

I'm just saying, so far, we just have all of mankind in view. So now at verse 28, Paul continues. He says, For in Him, in God, we live and move and have our being. And this, as he says, as also your own poets have said, for we are also His offspring, His children.

So Paul, now, since he's established that we are God's offspring, we are God's children, okay, now he says, so since that's true, therefore, since we are the offspring of God, see, Paul affirms that we are God's children, we ought not to think that the divine nature is like gold and silver.

It's obvious. Because you can see a human being and they possess the divine nature, we know that God is not like wood and stone. God has the divine nature. We can see it when we look at His children.

That's what his argument is. So, you're saying then that we are divine by nature? I'm agreeing with Paul. Are you saying we are divine by nature?

Apparently, the human nature is...

Sounds like it to me, yeah. Okay, so now you're saying that everybody is a little God. We're all divine like God. I'm agreeing with Paul. I'm not saying, I'm pointing out what Paul said. Are you saying then that we're all little gods because we're divine in our nature,.

We're born that way? No, I'm saying that the human nature designed by God.

Has some divinity to it. Okay, so that means we're God. Divinity is the quality of being God. That's what it means biblically. So, you're saying we are God? No, no. No?

I don't believe that's what divinity... Really? What does divinity mean? I'm saying, just the fact that God shares His divinity with us, if that's what He does,.

Does not make us God. You use these terms, but you don't explain what they mean. What does it mean to share? That makes someone else a little bit divine? Or does it mean just to indwell us and there's a separation between His nature and our nature?

No, we... Paul says we have the divine nature.

Okay, so you're saying that we are divine by nature then? I'm saying Paul says that we have the divine nature. Okay, what does it mean to have? Does it mean that we have it as in part of our nature? Or does it mean have as in God indwells us as we have it in that sense?

There are different senses, I'm trying to get clarification.

So, which is it for you? It seems to me that Paul has the sense of, you know, it's part of our ontology.

Okay, so now you're saying we are divine? Okay, so ontologically you're saying we are divine. So that means that we're like God because we're divine.

So that's Mormonism. No, it means that we share the divinity of God somehow. You're teaching Mormonism.

We're little gods in embryo and we reach our full potential of Godhood. That's what Mormonism teaches. That we have a divine nature because the nature of God and nature of man are basically one and the same except that he just progressed further than we have.

So you're just saying the same basic kind of a thing. You know, you're just heaping heresy upon heresy. So now you're saying that we're divine by our very nature when we're born. So that makes us little gods.

No, I'm just pointing out that Paul argues that we have the divine nature. So I'm not going to argue with Paul.

No, you're begging the question. You're assuming that's what he's saying. I'm taking what you're saying and I'm working with what you're saying. So is God divine? God is divine, yes. Okay, so if I'm divine, am I God?

No. Then how can I be divine if I'm not God? Because you're...

Because you're a creature that God made.

Oh, so I'm a divine creature?

It sounds like... It sounds like because we're children of God, we're...

Do you think children are related to their fathers? Yes. Can God sin? Can God sin? I don't believe so. You don't believe so, wow.

Okay, well, I'll answer that. No. So, since I am a sinner, and I still struggle with sin, and I'm divine, according to you, so I have a divine nature, and yet I'm also sinning, yet the divine nature can't sin.

So how does that work? It works because God is the father of all humanity, and humanity are his children. So because they're related to God, I think that's what Paul has in mind.

So how can my divine nature that I have, and I'm divine by nature, how can I also sin, since God, who has a divine nature, cannot sin? And I have his divine nature, so how can I sin?

Well, obviously we have the ability to sin, Matt. Wait a minute.

But God cannot sin. And you said, I have God's nature. So how am I able to sin with God's nature, but God with his nature can't?

Apparently, we can possess the divine nature and still sin, if we choose to.

Okay. So I can sin, I have a divine nature, and God can't sin. He has a divine nature. Well, I have a human nature. God doesn't share my human nature. Is a human nature the same thing as a divine nature?

I don't...

Some of these questions, I'm not going to have the answers to, Matt. I think God, as we see God, God is spirit like Jesus.

Give me the question. Is the human nature the same as the divine nature? Go ahead and ask me the question. Is human nature the same as divine nature? No. Is that what you said? No, the answer is no. God possesses the divine nature.

In him dwells all the fullness of deity and bodily form as Jesus, the divine nature, the Godhead. He's before me, the creature. So I don't share his nature, because part of the divine nature is immutability, is eternality, is aseity.

I don't possess those things. I don't have the divine nature in the sense of its myontos, my nature in essence. So if God cannot sin, and he cannot sin with the divine nature, and you're saying that I am divine, well, then I can't sin.

But now you're saying, no, you have a divine nature that's the same as God, but you can sin, but God, who has a divine nature, can't sin. You're not making any sense. Well, you're just not understanding me, Matt.

See, Adam.

Was the son of God. Do you realize that? Yeah, he was in one sense a son of God, yeah. So God was his father, right?

In a sense, being a creator, yeah. You understand, though, don't you, that children share the attributes of their father? Yeah, my children share the attributes of their father and their mother, biologically, genetics.

Right, so this is what Paul is saying back in Acts 17. Once he shows that all these people are around, and these are God's children, and because we're God's children, we shouldn't think that the divine nature is like.

Wood and stone. I don't see why you're not following. So the divine nature is not wood and stone, we know that, but I asked you if God could sin. You said you don't believe so. I'd help you out. No, he cannot.

And then you say, I have a divine nature, but I can sin. You haven't been able to explain that disparity. Because you say, if I have a fallen nature, well, welcome to Calvinism. But if you're saying that we don't have a fallen nature of a divine nature, that's a problem.

But I'm a sinner, and you're a sinner. So you have fallenness. I don't believe in.

Fallen natures. I believe we have a human nature that can sin or do whatever humans.

Are capable of. Well, I believe we're, by nature, children of damnation, children of wrath. That's what our nature is. Only sons of disobedience are children of wrath by nature. Really? And so, only them, okay.

But, I mean, so when we're born, we're born completely innocent, which you have no verses for. And you're like Adam and Eve before they fell, which you have no verses for. And then you say we have divine nature, which you go to the text, but it doesn't support that.

And then you say we're divine in our nature, and yet we can sin. And when I ask you if God can sin, you say you didn't think so, which is a problem in itself. You should have the emphatic no, he cannot.

And it's problematic there. Because you're so man-centered in your theology, you're affecting the very nature of God. Your humanistic philosophy is overpowering you. You see, this is a sign of, believe it or not,.

Total depravity. Well, I think you ignore Jesus and his role, and whether he was.

Actually tempted to sin or not. So, how do I ignore Jesus' role?

Yeah, because I think Jesus chose, as a human being, I believe Jesus chose not to sin. I don't believe he didn't sin because he couldn't sin. So, did Jesus have two natures?

Did he have two natures? Does he have two natures, divine and human? Does he have two? I don't know. Do you read the Bible? Do you believe the Bible's true? I do. John 1, verse 14, In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God, the Word was God.

Verse 14, The Word became flesh and dwelt among us. So, the divine, Lagos God became flesh. Colossians 2, 9, For in him dwells all the fullness of deity in bodily form. That's divine and human. That's two natures.

Except that I read that in Philippians.

Jesus said he didn't count his equality with God something to be held on to, and he laid it aside and became a man. He lowered himself. Oh, so Jesus on earth.

Was not God? So Jesus was not God on earth?

I believe of course his identity as God remains the same.

Was Jesus God? Did Jesus have a divine nature? Was he actually God incarnate on earth?

He had a human nature, I know that much. Did Jesus have a divine nature? Was he God incarnate? Well, you'd have to show, if you think he did. Matt, show me where you think Jesus had a divine nature.

John 1, verse 14, Colossians 2, 9, Philippians 2, 5 through 8.

What about the fact that Jesus didn't count his equality with God something to be held on to, and he set aside those things? Consider it robbery too. He was made in the form of a servant. Yeah, it says he did not consider.

Something to be robbed or taken. In other words, it was already his.

Okay, let me just interrupt real quick for one thing. If you guys could try not to talk over each other. So, like if you ask a question, give him a chance to answer, and vice.

Versa. Thanks. So you're not even sure if Jesus was God in flesh when he's on the.

Earth? No, I know.

He was God, and he became a human being.

Did Jesus possess two natures while walking on the earth, God and man? I don't read any scriptures that tell me that. Okay, what do you believe? Does he have two natures when he walked on earth? Yes or no?

I believe he was a human being that whose identity is God. Okay, did he have two natures? Did you either believe he did have two natures or did not have two natures, both divine and human or not both divine and human?

Well, if I'm stuck with only one, where do you see, Matt, that Jesus.

At all times possessed two natures while he was a man? Just for clarification for those with his question, Jesus at all times, we're not talking about the pre-incarnate Christ because Jesus himself came into existence when he was conceived and born.

That's when he adopted the human nature and the Word became flesh in that sense. From that point on, from eternity on, he will always possess two natures. Now, that's the Orthodox doctrine. It's called the Hypostatic Union, just for clarification.

So when you say that Jesus always possessed this, it's not the case. Two thousand years ago, Jesus became a man. So technically to say he always possessed both natures is technically correct if we understand it to mean at the time of his inception that Jesus was two persons.

That's what that means. That's Biblical Orthodox theology. Now, Jesus says, unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins, John 8 24. And John 8 58, he says, before Abraham was, I am. They wanted to pick up stones to kill him.

John 10 30 through 34, to pick up stones again to kill him. He said, many good works from the Father I've shown you, for which of these are you stoning me? And they said, for good work we don't stone you, but you being a man, make yourself out to be God.

So the Pharisees understood he was claiming to be God. Jesus claimed to be God. He was claiming it. They understood exactly what he was saying. So you either believe Jesus or you believe the Pharisees.

You either affirm that Jesus is God in flesh, two natures, or you deny that he's God in flesh with two natures as the Pharisees. No, I don't have to.

I can affirm that Jesus is God and that he has a human nature. Does.

He have two natures? The person have two natures, a divine nature and a human nature.

I don't read. It seems to me Jesus set his divinity aside. So I'd have to say that...

So if he set it aside... If he set his divinity aside then he was no longer God. No. Why do you say that? Because he would set it aside. So he's not divine. It's not there. It's not his. He set it aside someplace else.

Well, he set it aside, he could pick it up again. Just because he sets it aside doesn't mean he loses his identity of who he is. Should God choose not to exercise his power at a certain time doesn't change the fact that he's God.

You know what I mean?

Alright, so you don't understand the hypothetic? Do you even know what the Trinity is? Yeah, I believe in the Trinity. What is it? I believe in that God is one God in three persons. Did Jesus rise from the dead in the same body he died in?