What is the Church, Part 1

Andrew Rappaport's Rapp Report

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01:38

You What is the church I mean there's so many things that come to people's mind when we talk about the church

01:45

Some people think of it as a building. You know that's the church. No There is something we refer to as a building that we refer to as a church because that's the place where we worship

01:57

God But is that really the church is it is it a building or is it the organization like the

02:03

Church of England is it? it a denomination Or is it the clergy you have that with the you know

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Roman Catholic Church? Do they think that it's the clergy that are the church? What is the church?

02:19

well, that is what bud and I are going to be discussing over the next couple of Podcasts because there's no way we can go through this all in one episode

02:28

If you want to get more information about what we're speaking about though today You can find it in some heretical book written by a crazy nut called.

02:37

What do we believe? Why are you laughing at that, bud? Oh, that's right,

02:43

I forgot about that. Yes. Oh, he's a great great guy. I live with him all the time

02:50

But yes, you could you could get more information about what we're discussing in my book. What do we believe? we're actually going to be going through chapter 8 the

02:59

Doctrine of the church over the next couple of episodes. And so as we do this is one that I think bud there's a lot of Discussion on what is the church nowadays and it has been for much of Christian history.

03:14

Don't you agree? Oh, I absolutely agree. I think of a quote from Thomas Manton, I think who said that Division in the church breeds atheism in the world.

03:28

And if you look at what's going on in in the church contemporary to us now it's just crazy and There seems to be anything and everything that passes for a church

03:41

Yeah, and and we can see as we'll go through historically looking at it, but there there is confusion

03:48

Amongst people today even those who attend a church service That Kind of wonder what is the church?

03:56

I mean I mentioned some there in the opening you you have some that think it's a building Some who you know think it's the denomination or the clergy

04:07

Some that are going to define it as some Institutionalized religion acting in a political or social way

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Right, so there's a lot of different views a lot of different incorrect definitions

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But we have to start with good definitions to have discussions, especially in areas where people are going to disagree

04:32

That's true. And let me just ask a question. I go to you just did Let me ask a second question

04:40

I Go to a church and Andrew it does not have a steeple on the top of the building.

04:47

Now. Is that a legitimate church? Well, it doesn't have a bell because it needs to have the bell even if it doesn't have a snow right?

04:54

No bill either Yeah Now that's that's only because you're from the South see in the in the north.

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We don't have that issue because we we have Churches that don't want to say that they're a church, you know, they're a fellowship

05:09

Or they're just you know, they're elevation. Well, what is that you in an elevator?

05:16

Well, what is that It doesn't even tell you what it is bread of life.

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I thought you you were defining church by Stephen Furtick or something But but you have people that get away so you you have this

05:34

Wide range of what people think a church building even should be Should it have a steeple or do we got to get so far away from the traditional stuff?

05:45

That we don't even say we're church Because it started by saying well we're fellowship now,

05:51

I can't even say that Because the new hip thing is to not have anything. Don't don't say community.

05:57

Don't say fellowship You got to say bread of life, which is one of them up in my neck of the woods here

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You know things like this that are you know, really supposed to be Engaging with culture

06:09

Which is part of the problem I think because this is why we're having to address things like this because What is supposed to be the church?

06:19

Has lost its meaning and definition and therefore has been focusing on engaging the culture

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I would say in the wrong way Because they're trying to be like the culture to reach the culture and I think that the culture is gonna have a more effect on the church when you're trying to act like them

06:40

To try to reach out to them because why why would the world want to be going to a church?

06:46

That's just like them already. What do you have to offer? Friends they can find that in a bar

06:51

Right. I mean, it's like it seems that what many that claim to be a church want to do is say

06:59

That they can offer the same Friendship and fellowship that you can have in the bar, but in a place with more morality

07:07

It's a better social club. I think that's true. I mean you've got and you know, we're wired made naturally to be legalists and Knowing that there is a

07:20

God even those atheists that would deny there's a God We know that they believe there is they know there is but we're legalistic enough to know wow

07:28

I need to be doing something that's Gonna soothe my conscience and if it motivates me personally to achieve my dreams and my goals and aspirations all the better Let me read you this

07:42

From a great churchman. Okay. Wait now read the one from Andy Stanley Listen to this now, this is what passes for church today and you know it we know it but here's the quote

07:57

People are not on a truth quest They are on a happiness quest

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They will continue to attend your church Even if they don't share your beliefs as long as they find the content engaging and helpful

08:14

That's contemporary Christianity today, I think I prefer MacArthur's quote John MacArthur's quote and now

08:21

I'll paraphrase it because I don't have it right in front of me But he said something like this If you have people that attend a church

08:29

They shouldn't feel comfortable they should either want to get out on because of conviction or get saved

08:38

You know, I think that's more accurate So we have to get to what is the church?

08:44

I mean, I think this becomes an essential thing when discussing anything Definitions matter especially in the area of theology

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If you have a wrong definition Then you can go any kind of direction, but you may get to the truth

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This this same way that a broken clock is gonna be right twice a day so Proper definitions are important.

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So there's a lot of people that make a big deal of the term church

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Now the word that we refer to in church in the Greek New Testament. It comes from a

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Greek word ecclesia There's a lot of people that make a big deal of what ecclesia is and The term itself is

09:36

Originally used in Ephesus it's from the Greco Roman Empire world and this the idea of the the church the ecclesia

09:49

It was used Initially to refer to a voting when people would get together for the purpose of voting and You know, we see it used over a hundred times in the

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New Testament and We'll see it in the Old Testament as well when we look in the spittoo age in the

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Greek translation and As you you see that it it refers to an assembly a congregation an army or a crowd

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So it's there wasn't any special Meaning to it before the time of Christ The way that we try to do it today and what we're trying to do for you that are listening as you as you hear us

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I Want you to think about the fact that this term has changed over time and that's what we want to do with this is show you how the meaning of the church what church is

10:50

Has morphed as it's become more and more specific through time And we have a stronger and stronger meaning of it because when we refer to the church today

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We're not referring to a body of people that gather together for some legislation for some voting act

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When we go and to the election booth, we don't call that the ecclesia, but that was what it initially was initially, it was a regularly summoned a legislative body or assembly it was a casual gathering of people for for some sort of assembly or Referred to a people with a shared belief a community or a congregation

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You see what we often refer to as church would be more be what is often referred to as congregation a lot of times in the

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Old Testament and so We got to understand that initially in the time of Christ The word didn't have the meaning that people use today.

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Why is that important? well, let me let me explain this the reason I think it's important is but we're gonna see

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Matthew chapter 18 and Jesus Christ is going to refer to how things should be run in the ecclesia the church

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But the church wasn't established yet Right that didn't happen till Acts chapter 2 yeah, and You know, it's interesting just as You study the word ecclesia in the

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New Testament It only shows up three times in the Gospels and they're all three in Matthew and the two times

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That you're speaking of in Matthew 18 in the context of church discipline the first time the

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Lord mentions it in response to Peter's confession in Matthew 16, so that's

12:48

That's very interesting So there's a couple different views on this. There is the view which clearly

12:54

Jesus is God so he knows everything So he knows he's going to establish a church

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That's true But you know, we'll get into this in in the later episodes

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I'm sure we will just touch on it now, but there is this Distinction we're gonna see in the different ways people view what the church is

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We're gonna refer to terms of covenant theology and Dispensational theology.

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Those are the two main ones I know I just want to do a quick step back for a second because we're talking about precision in definitions and Covenant theology is is really used for something that it's not so covenant theology was formed back when with the

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Catholic Church in the Middle Ages and The Reformers reformed that that's actually what's called reformed theology and What what most people refer to as covenant theology is what's historically referred to as?

13:57

Reformed theology and now what people refer to as reformed theology they really mean Calvinism, but they only mean the

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Calvinism within the specific circle of Soteriology the study of salvation So it's really hard nowadays to navigate these circles because terms have changed meanings and if you're someone who studies the history and The the terminology it can get confusing because you want to use as I do

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I want to use the more historical view definition of these views and yet if I do that people don't understand that So when

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I'm using the term Covenant theology, I'm not referring to that which was started in the

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Catholic Church But to what people today refer to it mostly as which is really the reformed a theology that that way of interpreting scripture

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That is not the Roman Catholic view, but they reformed it and put it in a on a better trajectory than the

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Catholic Church had so That's what I'm referring to it I'm taking that time just so that you realize that when you use

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Terminology you have to understand what people mean by it and I want you to know what I mean when I speak to you

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About these terms, so I'm gonna use the term covenant theology because it is what is often used today and when

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I'm doing that I'm referring to the the really the body of believers after the the

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Reformation that are looking at this way of interpreting the scriptures and the big distinction we're gonna make here is between the covenant theology and Dispensational theology because one big area of how they interpret the scriptures different is the area of the church so in covenant theology

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You're going to see that they would say that the church is seen in the Old Testament by those believing saints

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That were part of the nation of Israel So let's think about this you have the nation of Israel a large group of people but not all

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Israel were believers and so Paul would say not all Israel is

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Israel referring to a subset of the nation of Israel that were believers and The covenant theologians would say that that was the church in the

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Old Testament So the church does not refer to all of Israel. This is a misnomer

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I think people make Against covenant theology that would be in a dispensational camp

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They they'll try to say that You think that all of Israel was the church?

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That's not their argument. And if any of you made that argument against the covenant theologian stop

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You if you have to resort to a straw man argument to win your argument then you're already on shaky so So now but the dispensationalists would see this different because they would not see a

16:59

Church in the Old Testament. They would see the nation of Israel with a large body

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But there was a subset of believers within the nation of Israel Then you have a church, which is a separate institution

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Now you'll hear some covenant theologians that will they will refer to it as two administrations

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Old Testament New Testament We're a dispensationalist would refer to it as Israel and the church, but I hope you notice there's a lot of similarity there and And this is what

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I think we end up seeing is there's a lot of people who who end up fighting over these things

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And just it's it's not It's not always clear what they're fighting over because I think a lot of times they're not listening to each other long enough to realize let me give you a for instance, but I did an episode of the rap report on on the whole issue of the

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Sabbath and I Okay, I admit I was poking some jabs at the guys

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Well, I was doing it with Colleen who's a Presbyterian and referring to some things that you know that she had said on her podcast theology gals and I have a tendency to kind of poke some fun over at the guys at theology driven and You know because they

18:22

I mean they claim that they're driving around in a car and And doing theology and they say that they have to be in a car because they have you know, they have noises like this

18:33

So they sound like they're in a car You know, there's some street, you know that you get some street noise, you know, so that's their claim

18:42

I say I could do that right here And so, you know, well,

18:51

I'm you know, I might need to pull over you know, because maybe maybe you know, there might be a you know a crash or something so, you know, we can make those sounds but I've joked with the guys at theology driven in fun and They did on my one episode on the

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Sabbath they did like three episodes two where they were responding directly to my episode and then one where they played like a sermon and They were saying how

19:23

I was completely wrong And then we got together in DC and we sat down and all of us regret that we didn't record that conversation

19:31

Because at the end of the conversation they were like Andrew you agree completely with us and I'm like no

19:37

No, you agree completely with me But it took time instead of just Responding to one another it took time for us to sit down and and break these issues down to understand what we mean by what?

19:50

We say and that's important to do and so there are times where we have to do that and And that's really what

20:01

I want us to do here with these terminologies is to try to understand

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I actually think that what you end up seeing is there's not as much disagreement as many would like to believe and You you either way

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Okay, we're gonna get later. We'll talk about the local church and the Universal Church and what those mean

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But those who understand that terminology and you hear especially if you you're holding to a covenant theological position

20:32

You think about the fact that we would say that there's a church a Universal Church those who are saved But then there's a local church.

20:39

There's this people that gather together and call themselves part of the church that not all of them are saved and You see that distinction within the broad definition of church

20:51

Well, that's the same thing you see within the broad definition of Israel So it shouldn't be too hard to to see those together.

21:01

I Issue of Israel and the church in the book there on page 163

21:11

If you're following along folks You've got a great quote there from John Calvin who addresses this and and you you write that it has been a cause of tension in the church and Regarding the interpretation of the

21:26

Bible for 2 ,000 years This is the issue of the continuity and discontinuity of the congregation of Israel and the church

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But let me read that that Calvin quote because it's very helpful. And and I think both sides would agree a dispensational or covenant sides

21:43

Here's what Calvin wrote from an early period it has been recognized that while the church is one and Catholic Catholic with a small

21:52

C meaning unified While the church is one and Catholic it presents different aspects or forms which call for differentiation and reference

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Thus already in the Bible itself. There is distinction between the Old Testament Church and the New Testament Church It would be wrong to deduce from this a complete dichotomy as though the

22:13

New Testament Church were something quite different Which began only at some point in the New Testament story, for example at Pentecost on the other hand it would be pointless to deny that there are valid differences between the

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Old Testament Church and the New Testament Church a Legitimate distinction may thus be drawn.

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That's very helpful. That's very Consistent with what we see in Scripture Old Testament and New Testament Yeah, and and this is why we want to take the time to break this down because there is a lot of not only misunderstandings of the different views people have but there's people who

22:49

Will separate from one another and not not be able to work with each other over some of these things and so I do think some people make too big of a deal of this and That's why

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I want to go back to the historical meaning of it and show How this has changed over time because I think but what we see and this is why

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I did that in the book was To show that as we look at the way the word has has morphed

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There's people who use different definitions or are stuck in different time frames of thinking of how the word is used

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And so we want to be clear when we use the term We also want to be clear in what someone else

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Has as an understanding so if someone tells me they went to church today and It's a

23:41

Sunday. I don't need to beat them up all the time Well, sometimes you have to Sometimes but you know

23:51

Sometimes it could get in in trouble. I had recently I had to apologize to someone

23:58

You know, he mentioned in my church and he was a pastor and I just said your church question mark

24:07

Meaning that it's not it's not our church. I know what he meant by that and I'm just kind of Poking at him a bit but he thought it was a jab at him like as if I was saying something more than I was saying and It became a problem.

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So it ended up leading into a phone call But but that's the important thing is to know what we mean by these the terms here, right?

24:33

So I'm not gonna beat someone up because they said I went to church today because we understand what they mean

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For those people that feel like we we have to correct everyone in things like that Do you correct someone when they say

24:45

I saw a beautiful sunrise this morning? unless you're on the left coast and then you saw you know the sunset but Here on the

24:54

East Coast. We have sunrises. So is it really the sun rising? I Mean but do you usually walk around going

25:04

I saw this most beautiful earth revolving I Don't know that I've ever said that but we're getting into flat -earth territory here

25:14

No, because they don't think it revolves at all so That's right, so the first when we look at this the first meaning of the term that we've used for church

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It the that the word Ecclesia means called out or to call out Right, so it's it is a common term that we would use for a congregation and So as we look at that the the

25:44

Congregation would have that you have the people that are assembled You know, they they're called out for the the assembly

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For whatever the public affairs of state are and then you have this body of free citizens

25:57

That are called together by a Herald, huh? So you have someone that calls them out and they come out and then you have this

26:07

Herald who speaks to them Kind of sounds like something else that we would might refer to a church, right?

26:15

It does Yeah, so you see why people come up with the terminology the way that we would you know now

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The the term that we end up using for this Is It's not that we can we don't see used of religious of heathen religious assemblies

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But it is used for for Christian assembly. So there is a distinction that ended up being made historically

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As we we look at this It's it we it seems that when

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Christ would refer to the Ecclesia The the church that he took this term that was used for voting and Almost seems like he started giving it a new meaning and that that new meaning got carried over when the church

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That we would think of today Really we started forming in the in this first century. So You you end up seeing that the term did not in the time of Christ before Christ it did not have a specific reference

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To a congregation the way we would think of it today It just wasn't part of the the term so Just off of that recognize the fact that this this idea of a church changed

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Because what we talk about a church today is not

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What we would speak of it back before the time of Christ We don't speak of getting together to vote as an

27:56

Ecclesia as a church Okay, just it's it's something that I hope that you see that we're trying to lay a groundwork here of this terminology changing over time and so by indicating that this term changed it it gives us a

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View Within that world that the word was used we can end up starting to see these changes occurring

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Now you you gave the quote from Calvin And I think that that's a it's good for us to see that This is at the heart of what we you hear people talk about between covenant theology and dispensational theology

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Really? What is going on? There is this challenge? between two words

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Continuity and discontinuity So let me define those for those who may not know the terminology and may be new to that the idea of continuity is that there the church that we refer to in the

29:01

New Testament is Old Testament Israel and the those believers in The church today would be the

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Israel of the Old Testament. So in other words What they would end up seeing is that it's it's really the same

29:17

There's continuity. There's the same body Whether it's called

29:24

Israel or the church So they would see the continuity there as if Israel and the church are one

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Then you have discontinuity that obviously not this is not continuity, right?

29:37

It's it's The it's the breakup so that Israel is nothing like the church church is nothing like Israel Now what

29:45

I just gave you is the extremes But what you end up finding both in covenant theology and dispensational theology is that nobody really holds to the extremes

29:57

There's when when people would say well, you know, the covenant theologian has continuity between Israel and the church

30:03

Well, not really it's it's not a pure continuity They see some distinction.

30:09

They see rules that were given for the nation of Israel that they don't follow today

30:15

Because that's not part of the church. It's it's not for the church and For the dispensationalist, they're not gonna see that it's this complete separation

30:26

Because we can see that There's a lot of overlap in the way that God refers to the saved

30:33

Believers of the Old Testament in the same believers in the New Testament And so we don't have to beat ourselves up over things like that Because there's really not much discontinuity between those two belief systems

30:47

To use the term right? I mean, there's a lot of similarity there so I Want people to recognize that what most people when they're addressing the church from the theological positions they usually

31:04

Or not addressing the actual position people have Now, but you know that I would hold to a dispensational theology

31:15

It's it's the way I approach the interpretation of Scripture However, I have countless times gotten and and I would say made the mistake of trying to correct people

31:27

When they try to define dispensationalism Because a lot of times what they do is they define it wrong

31:36

And it bothers me when people do that, but you know what? I also correct dispensationalist when they define covenant theology wrong

31:46

Yeah, and The thing is not enough people understand these terms well enough to question their what they think the other side is

31:55

You know, I I had a thing bud where I had an atheist this is years ago before the Internet and I Had an atheist.

32:05

Well, I guess the Internet was around it just wasn't as big as it is today but There was an atheist

32:11

I worked with back when I used to work at Lucent Technologies And he had a TV program and he wanted to debate me on His program now he had a pretty big program

32:22

And there were a lot of Christians that thought I should have done it because it would have helped I could have gotten a big platform from it

32:28

They didn't agree with what I what I did What I told him was I would be happy to come on your program if you would do me one thing

32:35

I want you to debate the position of Christianity and I will debate the position of atheism

32:44

And he was like why in the world would I do that? I can't argue for Christianity He's like what would be the purpose of that?

32:50

I said, oh very simple I would like your audience to see that you challenge Christianity all the time and yet You don't understand it.

33:00

Yeah, I am willing to guess that if we do this debate your audience who are atheists will not say that I misrepresent their position and Yet any of the

33:12

Christians watching will probably tell you you're misrepresenting ours But in a case like that who has more credibility?

33:22

Yeah, exactly The the the point that you're making it is

33:31

There is a lot of common ground on the topic on the on the doctrine of church Regardless of which side you're coming from but you don't want to you don't want to misrepresent what a covenant

33:46

Theology Adherent would understand and and you don't want to represent misrepresent our own side and I can tell you this is the this is the

33:55

Singular question that I've had more often than not about dispensational theology And it oftentimes and I know we'll get into this later

34:04

But it oftentimes Means that the person has misunderstood the discontinuity that dispensationalists see between Israel and the church

34:14

In such a way that it leaves apparently two modes of salvation

34:22

And and that's incorrect too, but a lot of dispensationalists can't really explain that either. So your point about Taking the other side knowing what they believe

34:32

Being capable of understanding it arguing it From a theological standpoint, that's invaluable.

34:41

That's what we're to do that that promotes unity. We're not trying to make division Yeah, because I remember

34:49

I've shared this story a number of times but it is so fitting to what you're saying I was taking a class on Dispensationalism and I read both sides of an argument.

34:57

It's one of the things that I do. I try to do original source reading I don't read someone that is criticizing someone else's view without reading their view

35:07

When I was reading a dispensational book and I'm paraphrasing. I really wish that I marked the book and and put some

35:13

You know a bookmark in it permanently so I'd always be able to pull these these quotes out so I can only paraphrase them

35:19

But basically a dispensationalist book and this is what it said And I and I understand that the covenant theologians who are listening are gonna get upset with this quote

35:27

Just hold your horses this happens all the time I give this first part of the quote and the covenant theologians get so upset

35:33

They don't listen to the second half, but it becomes important, but I first was reading from the dispensational position

35:39

So that's the one I'll quote first and basically this dispensationalist said this We're covenant theology and dispensational are different.

35:47

Is that? Dispense a covenant theology believes that there's two ways of salvation

35:53

Works in the old the covenant of works grace in the new the covenant of grace, but we dispensationalist believe that ever since the fall

36:01

There's been one means of salvation grace alone, and I'm going well. Okay. I agree with that therefore.

36:07

I must be dispensational Except for one thing when I got done reading all the assigned reading in dispensational books

36:14

I started reading some covenant theologians and Basically, this is what I found in one covenant theologians book

36:21

He said basically the difference between covenant theology and dispensationalism is that Dispensationalism believes in two ways of salvation works in the

36:31

Old Testament quoted from Schofield reference notes the first edition and Grace in the new but we covenant theologians believe that ever since the fall of Adam it has been by grace alone, and I went what?

36:44

Yeah, exactly So you need to know both sides right yeah, we're arguing for the same point, and we believe the same point we profess the same point

36:54

And the thing that really bothered me about that was when I got that quote is it was from the same publisher

36:59

And now that was when the light bulb went off on me And I realized that this is the only person the group that benefits the most from these arguments are the publishers

37:12

That's why you end up having like you know Charles Ryrie's book in Zane Hodge's book on salvation right next to John MacArthur's book on The Lordship salvation on Lordship right and they put them all on the same page so you can get both

37:25

Or in that case all three which I did But this is why we want to take the time with this is to break this down so we can slowly go through this

37:35

Understand the specific meanings of what the term salvation is And what the term meant in the time is it was used so that as we carry forward to today

37:43

We can understand what it means today But we also have to understand this whole issue between these theological systems and the differences in the way

37:53

They view it because I think what people are doing a lot of times is reading into things

37:59

That aren't there so they read into someone else's theological system They read into the the term and read that term into a time before it had that meaning

38:08

So if you're going to read the term Ecclesia Church into the

38:14

Old Testament Well at that time The the term church just meant people getting together for voting it had nothing to do with a worship service

38:24

It had nothing to do with a regenerate people You see so this is why

38:30

I wouldn't call What was going on in in Old Testament times with the

38:35

Nation of Israel, I wouldn't call that church because at that time That didn't that wasn't the term to use

38:43

That wouldn't be the way to use that Congregation well, we can maybe use that that's a more fitting term at that time

38:51

Yeah Synagogue, I mean you know well, not even then because during the

38:57

Old Testament times Synagogue wasn't really used that's that's something that started to form you know after Israel kind of fell and you know was was taken captive and So you you don't really see much in the

39:14

Old Testament time of a synagogue rising up until the really the silent period where rabbinical

39:22

Rabbinic law Started to really start it up. Yeah, and and and just to clarify that's kind of what

39:30

I was thinking Really that first century particularly, you know when when the disciples after Peter's confession and Jesus says

39:41

You know on this rock. I will build my church. What was their idea? Was it a synagogue was it an assembly that they would have been familiar with at that time?

39:50

Yeah, yeah, I mean that's what they would at the time of Christ a synagogue would be the The way they refer to what we would refer to the church.

39:58

And so yeah, they're in the time of Christ I agree with you then that the synagogue and church have that have a similar meaning or idea and So the other in the old in the in the new in the time that we have the writing of the

40:13

New Testament They would have thought of what we think of church today. They would have thought of synagogue.

40:19

Yeah An assembly. Yeah, well an assembly with a purpose, right?

40:26

and and that's what we'll get into probably next episode is that what is the purpose they got together was was for the worship of God and so and that's where the synagogue had that mindset and we'll touch on that next next episode

40:40

But they had that mindset that the church Ended up changing the terminology or the the term the way they started using the term

40:50

Ended up Giving it a meaning that was very similar to the synagogue which could make sense if you think about it because where?

40:57

Where did Paul and all the the the early? Apostles go when they got to a new town

41:03

Yeah, exactly. They went to the synagogue, you know Christ himself in the synagogue So I see continuity from that I I do too.

41:16

And so but that's where I think what you end up having having is Christianity was born out of a

41:24

Jewish mindset of Jewish thinking. I mean it came out of Judaism of the time and as they separated they had some things that they had that were similar to Judaism and they started to Reform it into Christianity kind of much like the

41:40

Catholic Church and the Reformation, you know You had to take it from the legalism and get back to what the

41:47

Bible says It's what happened in the New Testament time and that's what happened in the Protestant time, right?

41:53

Yeah Did you make that point in the book you make that? Statement kind of pulling together these two views as covenant view and this dispensational view

42:03

You say the point on which both theological systems agree as regards their main theme

42:10

Is that you cannot biblically get away with defining the church is just any old group of people who got together for any old purpose or reason

42:19

And and that is the distinction and that is the that is the ground of agreement on both sides

42:26

This is not just a random assembly of people It's specific

42:33

That's right. And and that's why we have to understand that the terms, right? So And we're taking this time on purpose because there there are those who are going to try to make these distinctions and Try to make a division where I don't think there needs to be as much division, you know,

42:54

I there's a kind of a newer Theological system with within the covenant theology camp called new covenant theology

43:04

And so they would distinguish themselves from covenant theology there they're kind of like that that you know

43:11

Child that no one gets along with in the family. They come out of Covenant theology and they kind of don't agree with them.

43:19

But they're they also don't like the dispensationalists And so they don't get along with them.

43:25

So they're kind of like that orphan child, but Really what I think like about it is you end up seeing that you have a bunch of people that come with incumbent theology starting to see some of that discontinuity and they've they're trying to reconcile that and they see

43:42

That the discontinuity that the dispensationalists would see And you have some of the dispensationalists going through a similar camp where they have the the progressive dispensationalism and in there

43:55

It's not as sharp a division between classical dispensationalists and and progressive dispensationalists

44:03

Like you see in covenant theology and new covenant theology, but here was the thing that's interesting.

44:08

I had to when new covenant theology was kind of starting up and literally the first book on new covenant theology was written by a friend of mine

44:17

Fred zaspel and I was in seminary at the time and I Chose that I was gonna write on this because there really wasn't anyone in the dispenser dispensational camp that was engaging with new covenant theology and studying it and Trying to address what it is.

44:35

They believe so I wrote an overview of new covenant theology And it was really it was really interesting when

44:42

I was doing this because the conclusion I came to is there really was not a lot of difference between What the new covenant theologians would believe and the progressive dispensationalists would believe other than the way they would interpret the unfulfilled future prophecies

45:01

They would have a different way of interpreting that but up till there It was very similar now new covenant theology has changed a little bit more since that time

45:09

And so I don't I don't know that that might would still be the case but What you ended up seeing is that as people are trying to study they're coming closer together in in their systems and it just makes me think of something that one of my seminary professors had told me where we got together for lunch and We were talking and I was just really struggling

45:34

This was after I read the quotes That I mentioned to you earlier and I was talking to my professor

45:39

Steve and I just said him Steve I really because we I This was after I was out of his class, so I called him first name

45:48

Because we became you know, good friends and I said Steve I'm really kind of just struggling with some of this stuff.

45:54

Like this is what I had read He's like Andrew. Let me explain something to you. He says, you know

46:01

Sometimes the professors here and this is a dispensational school We get together with some of the professors at Westminster, which isn't that far and that's a

46:09

Presbyterian school He said here's the thing I find The theologians in That those that are studying systematic theology

46:18

When they get together They they're fighting everything out. They can't get along He says when

46:25

I get together with the Old Testament professors over at the the seminary at Westminster We can get along fine because what we do is we say what does the text say?

46:38

And It really drove a point home to me is to stick to the text of Scripture and and not worry about how the

46:45

System should interpret that passage But look at what the passage is actually saying.

46:52

I Think that becomes helpful Any thoughts on this at this point before we go on No, I think yeah, you've got to be cautious.

47:02

I mean you can put a theological framework over the top of Scripture and you're not intentionally, but you are

47:11

Engaged in eisegesis to a certain degree it it's not motivated for the same reason, of course but Scripture is the authority

47:21

Scripture is sufficient Scripture is clear and That's got to be the starting point and and everything else develops out of that yeah, so, you know one of the things

47:32

I ended up saying in the book is I Said this I said in any case at the point of this discussion that you cannot as a you know

47:44

Covenant theologians cover nationalists that the church has ever Been just an old group of people

47:51

God has always defined what the church is and who is a member of the church from Adam to Abraham It was those who

48:03

God called to himself out of darkness into light, so This is what the covenant

48:10

Covenantalists would end up saying they would say that's church, but I'm gonna say that this is

48:16

Whether you say it's church or the members of the church. Let's understand what someone's I think meaning by that Because the church that the term wouldn't be proper to fit at that time, but we do know that God has a people of people that he calls out of darkness into light and Because of that we all can agree with that And so that's what

48:41

I want to do with this is is to just get this groundwork for us When we talk about church to recognize that we kind of whatever terminology we're using

48:54

There's agreement that there was a body of people That God was working with in the

49:01

Old Testament times that We're not all believers even though they had some some

49:09

Benefit of the relationship with God. There was a subset of them that had a special unique and sanctifying relationship with God Now let's not quibble over the terminology of what that is

49:29

Let's recognize that both sides agree with that because when we get to that when we pull away these labels that everyone's fighting over you end up realizing that both sides have a similar view and That's that's what

49:46

I really want to do with this bud is to get people to recognize that the similarity that both groups have

49:54

Because you're talking about grace alone and faith alone Yeah, and in Christ alone though in Old Testament times it was future

50:04

So they put their faith in a future event that would happen where we put it in a past event precisely, you know and so what's important to note with the two viewpoints is that those who see who see

50:20

Israel as the Old Testament Church They they see the church as a specific entity and still we see the idea church or a general gathering of a congregation which was transitioned or Changed after Pentecost to have a more specific meaning and I want to spend some time you know in the next couple episodes getting into that more, but let's just look at the early church and We'll pick up the church in the

50:50

Middle Ages in the next episode But let's look at the early church, right?

50:55

What window when Paul would speak of church Because when he would speak of the church he actually meant what we would think of as Separate congregation separate meetings.

51:07

He didn't refer to one body and And so I say that for this reason for those that are trying to fit everything into a these night nice neat Labels of Covenant theology and dispensational theology

51:22

It it doesn't work that way because the word is messy because it was changing So when people try to say well the

51:29

Old Testament Israel is the church Now, yeah, not all of Israel was

51:35

Israel, right? So it's just that those saved ones But see Paul is using that term to refer to local gatherings

51:44

Kind of as you would say like a synagogue mindset or the congregation so they're they're all separate and distinct from one another and There there wasn't in this upset some of the denominationalists out there

51:58

There wasn't some overarching group that was over all of those congregations

52:05

Right, so they didn't have the idea of a denomination that that all of the churches were under No, you had the

52:12

Church of Ephesus You know many churches you had in Ephesus the Church of Ephesus Yeah You know, there was one church for that town there was one gathering of the believers in that town and they all met and They probably had some differences and guess what they didn't split over their differences.

52:33

Maybe we could learn something about that bud Yeah You know, it's it is really funny it is a side note, but you know what

52:42

I look at some of the stuff going on and When I was in the the independent fundamentalist seminary and I had to write a paper on separation and they were big on separation there

52:53

You can't you can't get a look you can't work with anyone that you don't agree 110 % with And I had to write a paper and I wrote a paper against separation with other believers

53:04

It was very interesting. My professor ended up writing on there. He goes I don't like your conclusion

53:09

I disagree with your conclusion very much, but I cannot argue against any of your arguments

53:16

And so he gave me an a grudgingly But it meant

53:21

I had to write I had to write a better paper because I was writing it not from the position that the Seminary had so I had to be stronger in my arguments than than the other students

53:29

But you know, I see this online now bud it's like we've returned back to those fundamentalist type of mindset of separation if I if I if you

53:38

Talk to a person that I don't agree with and you're tainted and I can't talk to you anymore And it's just so bothers.

53:44

I said we've gone back to you. Maybe some of these guys should oh, I forget

53:49

What is it Pickering's book? Ecclesiastical separation, you know some of these guys that come out of Covenant theology and reformed it

53:56

Maybe they should go back to the independent fundamentals Baptist mindset because that's how they're acting, right?

54:01

It really is that that kind of we all have to agree completely and none of us are going to but in the early church

54:09

They gathered they collected together those who were believers They gathered together in a congregation for the purpose of the worship of God That's that's what that word started to mean

54:21

How Paul would use it as the local gatherings that gathered very much like a synagogue for the purpose of worship

54:30

So I say this in the book as the congregations of believers Met for the purpose of worship of God the term church started to have a more specific meaning denoting a specific group of people

54:45

Who function in a specific manner? Thus the word

54:50

Ecclesia Took on a new and more specific Christian meaning it no longer referred to a

54:59

General gathering or an assembly of people but to a group that meets for the worship of God the reading and explaining of his word and the

55:11

Practicing of ordinances baptism and communion it also referred to the purity of the group ie church

55:18

Discipline, but we must note that the early church did not seem to make much of the distinction between different local congregations okay, and that's gonna become we're gonna see that this term in the next episode is gonna morph even more and Change even more and so I want to wrap this up.

55:39

Sorry. No pun intended there. I want to wrap this part up To see if you have any comments before we do a spiritual transition game well,

55:50

I Have a question actually you didn't want to ask if you had a question

55:56

Yeah, I didn't want to ask you if You're Jewish. I am like like do you get double points because you're also a

56:05

Christian? So I'm just wondering how that works I don't know. Yeah, I mean, I'm Gentile only so I'm safe Faithful in Christ alone, but I wonder if you got something extra working for you

56:18

You know you bring this up and it is something where there are a lot of people who

56:24

It's like they think somehow there's something special about me because I'm Jewish. I Got saved the same way every other person got saved

56:35

Really? Yeah, and there's nothing special about a Jewish person who gets saved and there's people are like, oh, no, there's something

56:42

I have people that try to convince me. Oh, no when a Jewish person gets saved. It's something special. Why? And it's funny because I hear a lot of different reasons for the why part

56:50

I mean some people like because you know, the Jewish people are so steeped in in in tradition. Oh like in Catholics aren't yeah

56:58

Or I ask you that because I've got a guy that I'm gonna play this for and I wanted to hear your answer

57:06

There was a motive there's a motive well, it's it's not I get this a lot from people and they think somehow

57:13

There's something special or unique about being Jewish the

57:20

Jewish people were a Special select group that God had a special purpose for that He chose out of all the other nations for the purpose of bringing a

57:30

Messiah So he had a group of people that would have God's Word be instructed in God's Word That would be for the purpose of doing what they did not do

57:39

Proclaiming God's Word around the world But still teaching the teaching the truths of God's Word and what they did was they kept it to themselves and Christ Criticized them for this and says that's why it's gonna go to the

57:53

Gentiles. They understood very well what he meant in in Matthew 12 when he's explaining these things and they're like what is this parable about the

58:03

Tenant farmer who is gonna beat the servants and then kill the son thinking they're gonna get the farm for themselves and The owner is going to take it from the tenant farmers and give it to someone else and they're like he's speaking about us

58:19

Yes Because you thought you can keep the truth to yourselves

58:25

Right. That wasn't the plan that God laid out for you in the scripture So, I don't think there's anything special about being

58:33

Jewish I This is why I don't say that I'm a messianic Jew or a completed

58:39

Jew or any of these terms I'm a Christian Who's Jewish?

58:45

Now Judaism has a religious component. It also has an ethnic component and it's so it's different in that way

58:52

So ethnically, I'm still Jewish But religiously I'm Christian Yeah Faith, yeah

59:02

So let's after this commercial play a game Can you answer the following questions for your children or for the person to whom you are?

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01:00:32

Bible interpretation made easy seminar in your area All right, but it's time for a game it's time now to start the

01:00:46

Spiritual transition game All right So those who are regular here know what this game is

01:00:53

But for any who may be new if you're wondering what in the world is a spiritual transition game This is where bud is going to give me something that I have to transition from whatever he gives me to the gospel

01:01:03

Why do we play this game? Very simple reason one of the most difficult things when it comes to evangelism that most people find is the idea of Transitioning from the natural world to the spiritual world and because of that so many people find this as a difficulty they shy away from Any kind of evangelism or they say well, let me wait till God opens an opportunity

01:01:26

And I say you don't need to wait for an opportunity. You can make an opportunity by practicing

01:01:32

I do this all the time I practice this transition from the natural world to the spiritual world so that Anytime that I come into a conversation

01:01:41

I could look to say how am I gonna transition this from whatever we're discussing? Into the spiritual realm.

01:01:48

That's the goal. That's what I want to do. And that's what we're gonna do right now So buds gonna give me something and I have to take whatever he gives me and get to the gospel bud go

01:01:59

Okay, and this is a true story that just happened probably an hour ago as my wife was preparing dinner

01:02:04

She took out a bag of onions sliced into one and it's a bad onion and she was not happy So this wasn't the bad onion like the satirical

01:02:18

Website that does news right? Oh, no, no. No, that's a different kind of bad onion Well look now you you told me before we started recording that you haven't had dinner now did this bad onion

01:02:32

Affect her being able to get dinner and that's why you're still hungry. No. No, she found another one

01:02:41

No, but I mean just think about what was her thoughts when she got cuts in because before you cut into the onion you first Have to peel all the the sides off Right the dead part of the onion you have to peel all that before cutting into it

01:02:56

So what y 'all do? Yes, you don't get in the kitchen much. Do you know? Your wife doesn't let you in the kitchen.

01:03:03

I know I stay out of it. Yeah, just just to eat So, you know what when you're doing that,

01:03:15

I mean she's prepping for that it can be a frustration I mean if you put yourself in her position, right?

01:03:22

I mean you're sitting there you're prepping you have you know You have to get dinner ready you you're cutting it and all of a sudden you have this unexpected thing happen

01:03:33

Right, you have something that is just it's ruined. Now if that's your only onion, that's a real problem You she fortunately had a backup shirt.

01:03:40

She was able to get another onion, but she she had a backup. Yeah She was she was crying you said

01:03:47

An onion so Well, you know there's an interesting thing with that though and I've tried this

01:03:56

I Always used to have an issue cutting onions when I was talking with my wife and helping her in the kitchen

01:04:02

I know you may not understand that but some guys can go in the kitchen and help out their wives and so I would be cutting the onion, but I would

01:04:08

I'd be talking with her and I always had my eyes water and And she wouldn't and when

01:04:13

I when I explain this, but you're you're gonna know immediately because you've met my bride But I ended up reading something that said that when you're when you're breathing in through your mouth and Speaking when cutting an onion it ends up affecting you that you will cry.

01:04:31

Well, my wife is very quiet individual So she doesn't have that problem. She cuts into an onion and doesn't speak at all just cuts it and goes

01:04:38

Yeah So, I mean but what that shows is that there's the way the human body is designed

01:04:46

You'd sit there with an onion and it can affect us It it can you know have a different effect on us, but when you open up that bad onion

01:04:55

When you're expecting to use it This is really what we end up seeing in in our own nature in our own being.

01:05:03

There's a lot that on the outside She couldn't tell that was a bad onion I mean not unless it's completely rotted through from the outside the onion looks fine but in the inside it's corrupt and ruined and That really is very similar to the human condition

01:05:20

You may not have thought of that before but it is very much like the way you and I are You and I can look very good on the outside.

01:05:27

I mean, I I try to put up a good front I'm sure that you do too We all try to put up a really good front for others to see

01:05:33

But when we're alone with ourselves, we we kind of know how corrupt we really are inside. Don't we

01:05:38

I mean But there's someone who can cut that open and expose the rottenness that we hide from others

01:05:47

That's deep down inside and that's God and there's a day that we die

01:05:53

We're accountable to God and he's gonna cut all of us open and see that rottenness

01:05:58

Now the reality is though is God made a way of escape even though there's a rottenness inside of us that Deserves to be thrown away

01:06:08

God paid the punishment and gave us a new life so that we're made new from inside and the

01:06:16

Holy Spirit indwells us so that we now have God inside of us and He is now

01:06:22

Given us a new heart and a new nature and so because of that We can have eternal life, even though we were once rotten inside.

01:06:32

So very much like the onion There's someone who's gonna cut us all open and expose the rottenness from within and unless we have that new nature

01:06:41

Unless we turn from trusting ourselves Trusting our good works and turn to trusting Christ and what he did on the cross

01:06:48

Then one day God's gonna expose that rottenness from within for all to see and he's gonna judge for all eternity

01:06:57

So there's from the rotten onion Amen, I Was I'll admit that I was thinking of it going a different way in the middle.

01:07:05

They are talking about You know the way the onion makes us cry and I couldn't figure a good way.

01:07:11

He's going back to See but I'm saying that so people realize that sometimes when you're sharing you're trying to do this transition

01:07:18

You don't know how you're gonna get there and I was trying to go down one Avenue I really see a dead end here.

01:07:24

Let me back up and Go back. So if you go and re -listen now To that spiritual transition knowing that I went down a path kind of like in a maze

01:07:34

I'm not sure where I'm going. I hit a dead end. I just backed up to the last spot and Went on another path yeah, and Yet you guys didn't notice that probably in the conversation because it was conversational just bud and I talking

01:07:49

That's what we're trying to train you to do with this. I hope that's helpful So but what we've tried to do on the next episode is to pick up on the church in the

01:07:59

Middle Ages And so if folks want to get ahead I encourage you to go to the striving for eternity store.

01:08:06

Just go to striving for attorney org pick up the book What do we believe so you could read chapter 8 before next week and you will be ready?

01:08:17

you'll be like bud quoting the page numbers and Cuz you're cool

01:08:22

I was starting to think you know my book better than me bud You give me a heads up I knew we were gonna talk about this.

01:08:29

Oh, that's good Well, you know, but we don't have any new reviews So I'm gonna put an appeal out there folks if you find value in what we're doing if you enjoy this would you consider going to To Apple podcast

01:08:43

I was gonna say iTunes, but you can't call it that anymore They change name go to Apple podcast go to wherever and write a review if you put a review out there

01:08:50

We try to find them and it encourages us so that we know what you think of this podcast

01:08:56

We don't always get to see it when people post things online, especially if they don't tag us I saw that someone had a comment bud about the episode that we did with having your cake and eating it to addressing the whole thing with Al Mohler and the

01:09:11

Social justice issue and there was someone that didn't tag either one of us in the thing

01:09:17

But he had some great comments about it. He said that we really did a good job explaining the issues and Making clear what was happening there and I didn't get to see it for like two days because somebody else tagged me in it and Made a comment about the original post and I was able to go back to the post and see what what that person said and so it's really helpful if you write a review because that's better for easier for us to find and it is

01:09:45

Encouraging to us if you could give us that kind of feedback Because we you know, bud and I sit here we do these things we do a study we prepare and some of that is something you don't get to see behind the scenes and Yet we're trying to be prepared for you

01:10:03

Well one way you could let us know how it's helping you is to write a review and then we can read it on the

01:10:09

Air or just read it to ourselves and bud and I just sit at night when in the darkness of a room and we go

01:10:15

Oh look good biblical short encouragements. I need that. Okay. Here's another one.

01:10:21

Thank you guys Hope you guys will be around for a long time Love how you're striving for eternity.

01:10:27

I like reading that or Really enjoy everything that's being put out there from the podcasters.

01:10:35

By the way, that was from Trump fan one Yeah So, uh,

01:10:41

I guess I guess he's really happy that you know The impeachment is over I guess

01:10:47

We're soon to be so. All right until next time next week we'll we'll try to deal with the church and what it meant in the

01:10:54

Middle Ages and We'll look to address that. I hope that you enjoy that and Remember that until next time to strive to make today an eternal day for the glory of God and you know what bud?

01:11:09

What is that? That's a wrap This podcast is part of the striving for eternity ministry for more content or to request a speaker or seminar to your church

01:11:17

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