Shamsi Ali Debate

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of alpha to make a ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed to Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 9 7 3 4 6 0 2 or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1. And now with today's topic here is James white.

Thank you, Mark. Welcome to the dividing line on the Tuesday morning back here in sunny and warm Phoenix Arizona. Everybody else here got to slowly work into it. I just came back from the east and just ran right into the furnace walked out of Sky Harbor Airport went yep, yep, summer finally finally got here took a while, but finally got here and Rode this morning and saw a heart rate.

I had not seen since last year sometime. Because it it's a little bit harder riding when the the low in the morning was what 86 87 something like that this morning I think. So it was the old body was having to work a whole lot harder to go not very much faster, I'm afraid so but anyway it's good to be back and not going to be here forever because Immediately you look forward to the next thing and we've got a very busy late summer.

Early fall in the sense of August and September. August in Australia September. Both in Santa Fe and Portland. And so much much preparation yet to do again many Thanks to everyone who made the trip so useful not only those who arranged it.

Which is a lot of work in itself the churches that were so very kind to have me in but I? Know yesterday as I as I put my life in the hands of that little GPS device someone purchased from the ministry resource list.

And it took me a direction to Newark Airport. I had never been that way before in my life. I had had no earthly idea. You could even go that way. But it got me there. I got over there very quickly. In fact so quickly that I've had a lot of time at the Newark Airport yesterday.

But that's that's better than sitting in traffic and hoping you're not gonna miss your your plane. That's for sure so. Anyway that little thing got me all over, New Jersey. Especially I mean I know my way around Long Island pretty well, but I even learned some some faster routes.

Thanks to it on Long Island. So extremely extremely thankful for that now today. I'm gonna let well actually interestingly enough. We have a number of phone calls already so I guess before I was I was gonna let.

Some of my clips because I have a number of clips here to play sort of make it easy for me but hey, you know, it's. It never really works out that way. So let's go ahead and talk with Randy in New York City.

Hi Randy.

Hi, dr. White. I wanted to say that my wife and I were at the Exchange slash debate out in Queens and thank you very much for a very enlightening evening. One thing I wanted to mention and maybe as a recommendation for future such.

Dialogues would be air conditioning. Hello air conditioning. Yeah, I wasn't as it could have been but because it really hadn't been hot in New York, but I would have been in considerably better physical shape at the end.

We had some add some air conditioning because it did. It got a little bit got a little warm in there.

Yeah, definitely with your suit and your bowtie. You look a little warm. Yes. When all the the Muslims got up to pray. Yeah. That's a little. It was a little earlier than I think you expected and in the middle of your rebuttal as I recall one thing that I definitely would advise for future organizing future debates would be to make it a stipulation that If if the time of prayer comes up through in either speakers presentations or whatever that you simply stop the clock at that point.

That's what I should. I thought of it later. I I said I should have as soon as the the stream started growing even though we'd announced beforehand. And there was gonna be a specific time the imam wasn't leaving.

You know, yeah the same. I think yeah, it just there were certain people. They just don't care. What the schedule is they're just gonna go do their prayers and if I'm happen to be talking it doesn't matter.

That's exactly what happened in the Homs Abdul Malik debate in 1999. Everybody got up six minutes into my opening statement walked out. You know, yeah, how can they how can they judge what I've said when they didn't hear anything that I said in essence.

Yeah, and so I should have as soon as that was happening. I had about four minutes left. I was gonna play that here in a few minutes. I had about four minutes left. I should have said, you know what? Let's just go ahead and stop right now.

I'll pick up with about five minutes left and on the other side of the prayer time and we'll continue on. That's what I should have done and Just didn't think of it at the time and yep. Yeah, probably will.

Especially in the evenings we see it would have worked if we had started on time. We started almost half an hour late. Simple because no I could get there. I mean, it's you know, the parking was difficult.

It's Queens. I saw some of the people like Chris Arnzen on his phone giving directions at 20 minutes after 7.

So when we showed up it was about 10 minutes before 7 and there were maybe 40 people in the church at the time and we thought oh dear, you know, it's not gonna be well attended. You know how that's kind of unfortunate but you know, really by the time it did start it was completely packed house.

Yeah, really happy. Yeah. Oh, yeah, we were too. We were we were very very pleased and and obviously one of the things I need to try to get to this week Amongst a billion of other things is I I need to write to Imam Sham Siali and say how about what I suggested?

It looks like I might be there one weekend in October and You know, you've got this nice big masjid I'd be happy to come there and you know, that would sort of give you quote-unquote home court advantage in an Incense, so I'd be happy to do it and I'd like to I'd like to see if I can follow up with that because I think There were so many things I wanted to get to because it Especially sort of for 157 and things like that.

We could do a whole nother exchange just on the the Muslim Jesus and the Christian Jesus and the contrasts and things like that that I think would be Even more focused and even better. So who knows? We'll see what what happens.

It's certainly what I would like to do.

Yeah, definitely. If you're able to do another one in October, we'd certainly travel out for that as well. Now that we're in New York, you know, it's it's somewhere that you actually visit from time to time.

Opportunity for and and you know for anyone who like me has spent years listening to the debates in mp3. But it's never actually attended one if you know. If you're in the area or talk to quite sad and there's going to be a talk or debate of this kind go.

There's so much more engaging when you're there seeing the presentations, you know. Seeing the reactions of people even beyond. I imagine what's recorded on film. I mean, it's just being in the audience and hearing kind of you know, what they're.

You know, I mean commentary might be.

Really did you hear. Did you hear much? Did you hear much commentary?

There was a little on the left of us. But it was actually some fellow Christians there and my wife at one point asked them to pay attention. When the Imam was speaking and so she was like, you know, maybe you should actually, you know, listen a little more to what he's saying.

Well, I know that I know that I found on YouTube even before I got my clip up. Someone had put a Clip up from their video phone and they were not. Were you on quote-unquote my side of the room in other words.

Yes, okay. So yeah. Okay. All right. That seemed to be as I would listen to the audience response. It seemed to be. There were Christians were primarily in that area and. Yeah, yeah, yeah and then beyond that was primarily Muslim and so this fellow was over in the left side.

About halfway back and that's where most of the people who got up initially to go pray were so. He was saying that the Commentary there was quite interesting.

After after the Imam particularly made points that they thought were very strong. There was usually, you know shouts of something from that corner of the room and I guess make out what it was. They don't think it was.

Yes, it was the one. One person one person will start it and then they will respond a lot of Akbar a lot of Akbar.

Yeah, three times. Yeah, they did that many times. Yeah, the amens on the Christian side were considerably quieter and. But as they grew louder those shouts through the evening I could see a number of the Christians in the front left kind of looking over their shoulders.

Maybe a little a little concerned maybe but maybe a little wondering because they couldn't. I couldn't make out quite what they were saying. I thought that might be it. It was a lot of Akbar. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Well, thank you very much for a very good evening. We didn't say we didn't say after to have you sign my forgotten Trinity book. I saw you swamped with people. Oh, yes.

We we should have that was something we need to work on. Is is the the access was a little excessive. I mean, I was literally at some points feeling people touching me from the rear and stuff like that and I'm like, no, I don't like this.

No, no. No, I'd like to be able to find a wall here so I can see who's coming and I mean seriously I've got a lot of equipment sitting on that table and it's very difficult to try to you know, make sure that.

You know a modem doesn't disappear or a computer doesn't disappear and stuff like that. It was a little bit out of control there for a while.

And one last thing before I leave. Um, and this would have been a good question to ask me mom if I'd had the mind and a pencil and paper. And that was I myself have been interested in reading an English translation of the Quran, right?

Um, so what would be the translation that I should read? I mean, that would have been a great question to ask him, but I figure I'll ask you since I don't have from the bill. Yeah, well.

There are. There are problems with any one of them. You're gonna run across. The Saudis really crank out many thousands of copies of the Yusuf Ali translation. And when I was at the ASU mosque out here with my class last year I happened to sort of look over the Quran's that they had in a Bookshelf type thing and almost all of them were the Yusuf Ali translation that that's normally what I use because that's sort of the predominant.

But you've got Piktal you've got a sod. You've got a number of Islamic translations as well as non-islamic translations, obviously. Yeah, non-islamic translations. They're gonna look at. You know with a with a real grain of salt, even though that's part of the double standard is though.

They'll quote the quote-unquote Christian liberals, but you know, they won't even listen to you if you're quoting from a quote a non.

Islamic translation of the Quran. Yeah, you should probably would be a pretty yeah.

Yeah, well and you can get and you can get that with with Study notes in it well Not so much study notes was sort of commentary notes that at least help give you some background of the surahs and if you're gonna read the Quran Then go on my blog and find The chart that I put up if you just blog cut on or cried blog the word chronological I think that's gonna pull it up for you fastest.

I've put a chart on my blog that gives probably the best guess estimate of the Chronological order of the surahs because if you read the Quran Starting with surah al-fatihah and then moving forward one two, three four You're it's very confusing because the Quran is ordered in the length of the surahs Not when they were written and so you're bouncing back and forth back and forth between periods of Muhammad's life.

And so it's a little bit easier to read it in the chronological order than it is any other. Great. Okay. Okay. Well, thanks ready get on. Okay. Thank you. Randy. All right, God bless. Eight seven seven seven five three three, three four one.

Let's go up to Seattle and talk to Robert. Hi Robert.

Thank you, well, thank you very much. At the church I was going to there was a Youth, you know a youth You know church event and I heard the speaker use room excuse me revelations three. And My first thought you know to get your input on you know, is that indeed an open call to salvation and.

Yeah, okay, yeah, well, yeah revelation 320 is is commonly used in that way and in fact it's sort of the basis of The the picture that you have of people, you know of Jesus standing outside this knobless door and and this is how Jesus is knocking to come in and so on so forth.

But as you have rightly pointed out this this is in fact a part of Jesus's exhortation to the layout of see in church and So it starts off in verse 15 Where it says I know your deeds that you are neither hot nor cold.

I wish that you were cold or hot so because you are lukewarm and neither cold nor hot I will spit you out of my mouth. Because you say I am rich and have become wealthy and have need of nothing and you do not know that you are wretched and Miserable and poor and blind and naked.

I advise you to buy for me gold refined by fire So that you may become rich and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and that the shame of your nakedness will not be Revealed and I salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see those whom I love every proven discipline.

Therefore be zealous and repent behold I stay at the door and knock if anyone hears my voice and opens door I will come into him and I will dine with him and he with me he who overcomes I will grant to him to sit With me on my throne.

So as as I also overcame and sat down my father in his throne he who has an ear Let him hear what the Spirit says the churches and so this is Clearly in the in the context of the Lord rebuking the Laodicean Church, it's very interesting I don't have the tapes of it.

I wish I did. I spoke at a Bible conference back in the ball. It was a long time ago. It was down in Rio Rico Arizona which is like 17 miles north of the of the border and I Spoke on this particular particular church Dr. Zuber was speaking and I was speaking on the letters to the churches and I had Laodicea and I went through and I Wish I still had my notes and stuff because I really enjoyed the the study and So I went through and when it talked about gold white garments.

And the I salve these were all things Laodicea was was famous for so this was these were things that they would be familiar With that they thought they possessed but in reality They they did not possess these things and so this is the context it is of reproving and disciplining believers and That is the context of standing at the door and knocking And coming in and dining with him and he with me and so it's just a tradition honestly that people have that They've heard this used that way and and many people interpret verses without reference to their context.

And then when you dare mention it They assume that you're challenging. You know if they've always heard it that way then they assume that you're challenging the Word of God itself or something like that.

It's it's it's a little bit difficult to deal with.

That one verse, you know without reading before or after a lot of people do that.

I mean, let's let's face it most most preaching is done that way today. It really is. I mean if we're honest Well, you got to be very careful how you do that you don't you don't want to do it During the during the discussion unless there is something being promoted that is just really ungodly.

It's heretical something like that. It's far better to you know, maybe find a time to meet for lunch and and say, you know, brother I don't I don't want you to take this in the wrong way. But I I do feel it's important that we go the Word of God and I just want to ask you You know, could we read this letter to lay out of scenes?

Could we see what's actually going on here? And have you ever thought that the the use that you're making of this really is is a misuse of it and Most of the time they've never even never even had it presented to him.

And you're right. I mean, I I've believed you know for quite some time that yeah. There's a time and place to do that kind of thing. I know, you know. One thing I've heard you say you always got to do it with grace and and gentleness and to do those kind of things.

But he is the kind of individual that I would respond, you know may not be the way I would hope to but you'd be.

He has an open ear. Yeah, yeah, you never know. Yeah. All right. All right. Thank you. Thank you very much for calling. Okay. God bless. Bye. Eight seven seven seven five three three, three, four one.

The lines are hopping today. Let's talk with Jeff in Philadelphia. Hi, Jeff.

All right, dr. White. How you been done? Good good. You know, I had to call you because I saw from your blog postings on Your visit to the Westminster Cemetery. You mean Princeton in Princeton? Yes, right.

Princeton Cemetery. I don't know if they have a cemetery. Cemetery I used to visit there all the time. I think it's run by the mainline Church that cemetery is now on the. You know, I the thing I wanted to comment on it was just kind of really interesting.

I always found about that cemetery, especially. Was that Jonathan Edwards's grave is very? Let's say It subdued yes, and did you notice the little monument to Aaron Burr right next to it? Yes well, I just always found that really interesting was that the You know the disgraced politician has this.

This big ornate monument right next to it and Jonathan Edwards who is one of the leading intellectuals of North America has just like a little you know 1703 to 1758.

Well, actually actually he it's it's it's pretty standard for that time period but it's it's it's all in Latin. There's this big long inscription line that no one can read anymore. So.

From the weather, yeah, it's been weathered away. But the interesting thing was though was you know that monument to Aaron Burr? You know is a relatively recent phenomenon. It just in terms of like what people today care about.

Yeah. Yeah.

Well what I the question I kept having during my visit was, you know, right? Within literally a few yards of Edwards There are new headstones from the 70s through the current time and I just I just have to ask this question.

How do you rate? To get in that particular part of the Princeton Cemetery, I mean is run by the.

I guess the old church that the Presbyterian Church That Edward used to preach from. Mm-hmm I know. I would hazard a guess if you went to that church today. Not be on quite the scene. Not. Probably no.

Well, that's that's why I made the comments that I did. That I'm not sure. Which was the seminary. Which was the cemetery between Princeton. The two Princeton's.

Well, I you know before I guess, you know is very much intertwined and Where he's positioned is all where all the presidents were almost. Yeah. Well, yeah, that is I guess it well I'm I saw some all the presidents kind of for that era, right, right.

And also, I think you know Grover Cleveland is there right? Mm-hmm. The president of The United States, but yeah, right. Yeah the whole shebang.

It's a good Americanized a statement there the whole shebang. Yeah.

The whole whole shebang. So but anyway, yeah, so that's just my oddball phone call for today. I didn't really have much to say but I. Yeah, I just thought really interesting that you decided to go. Yeah.

Well, I.

Wanted to get to see it and to be honest with you. I Wanted to see Edwards, you know, I'd been to North Hampton I'd seen Brainerd's grave and things like that. But the real attraction for me for the Princeton Seminary Cemetery Was BB Warfield, right?

That's where I wanted to go. So and I did see that and I got that picture up. So anyways, Jeff, thanks for your call. All right. All right. God bless. Bye. Bye. All right. Let's let's blow out the lines.

Let's go ahead and talk with Bob in Chicago. Hi, Bob. Yes, sir.

Radio show when you were on there asking about the any book on is the chronic commentary or I'm sorry chronic on textual criticism. And I found I found something on the web on entering Islam site. John L Quran By John Gilchrist, right?

Well, yeah, you know Gilchrist's work is you know, some of the foremost in in the field. It's it's a little bit. You know, he's Yeah, I mean there's they there's all sorts of excellent resources on answering Islam my only concern always is that You know, you can find all sorts of stuff published today In resources from Prometheus books and things like that.

We just have to be very very careful and that is we We know that the other side is Going to engage in using differing standards in The scholarship that they use to attack the New Testament defend the Quran.

We can't do that in reverse just because they're doing it. In other words, there's there's a lot of material out there by modern orientalists that are exceptionally liberal in their worldview and it is reflected in their work on the Quran and So we just need to be careful.

It's very easy for Christians to grab hold of anything as long as it would seem to have something to do with Responding to the Quran or something along those lines and we need to just make sure that it's solid that it's that it's not a the same kind of Conclusion that is being drawn by people about the New Testament or about the Old Testament things like that.

We just need to make sure That we're using the same the same standards in in our examination of these things. That's the one thing I'd keep telling my colleagues in the field is is you know A scholar will come out with a paper on on the the Quran or something like that and I'll say okay.

But is he assuming the non-existence of divine revelation is the foundation of the argument because that's what so much of the commentary on The New Testament amongst unbelieving scholars is all about and we need to be careful about things like that so I learned in seminary to Appreciate what the Liberals have to say get hold of facts and then strain out the the other stuff that is not does not necessarily follow as a conclusion and I Would say anybody you read you have to examine the conclusions and see if they follow from the facts that have been presented that's always the key is to You know, I don't care who it is.

You have to be you have to examine things in a particular fashion and and make sure that there's a there's a consistency there.

On your website, I noticed that the amount. Give you a prayer duel challenge you. I was wondering if. Oh, yeah.

What I'm trying to remember what that was was to pray to God to Whoever is right. What was the context?

The hold your Bible up in the air and he'll hold his Quran up in the air. And oh, yes, you know, you'll pray that if you're if you're lying, then may you be cursed and he'll do the same. I just had this picture of like, you know, Clint Eastwood and like a Yeah.

Having already heard the argument that That there can't be text of variance in the Quran because then you couldn't sing it, right? You know, I was fully refuted at that point. So yeah. Yeah, that was pretty good.

Okay, yeah, all righty. Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one real quickly. Let me get this story in and then after the break I we can get some of the clips. But I had one of the weirdest Experiences of my speaking career Sunday evening I was my the 12th out of 12 speaking engagements and I was at Hope Reform Baptist Church out in Medford on Long Island couldn't find the place at first because they moved since I was there last and and Then when I asked him, when did you move?

They said five years ago. So you're kidding me. It's been five years since I was here last while it was probably November of that time. So anyway I'm watching someone walking by the cars outside right now.

So I'm just I'm just making sure they're they're okay. All right good. We are very security conscious around here anyway, so I had this I Made a presentation on the subject of Islam and Got done and normally what happens is while I'm trying to put my stuff away people want to talk and I feel a little bit Badly that I I normally just have to keep putting stuff away or I'll never get out of there.

Well, I'm trying to talk to people so talking to folks and I Turned to this One lady. She's sort of the last one left. I don't recognize her. I know a lot of the folks at home, but there's some new folks there's been five years that you hope there'd be some new folks there and She is an interesting looking lady, she's a little dark and She's not smiling at all and she just stares directly into the pupils of your eyes, okay, and She goes I would like to know why you failed to tell everyone that there were many Christians who believed exactly about Jesus like the Muslims do today Called the Gnostics nice go well because the Gnostics weren't Christians, that's why.

What do you mean? Well, they have like a different God and we're like the biggest enemy of the Christian faith in the first hundred years and then she just Stares and I'm doing that to rich right now and We'd have dead air and you all would probably turn things off if I stared silently as long as she did she would literally Just go and her eyes weren't moving around my face or anything.

They were boring into the pupils of my eyes and at one point. I felt like saying I can do this, too but I didn't because I was wondering what in the world's going on here and She'd just be silent and then she'd say something like Gnosticism brought personal responsibility to the world and I said what and She said because Gnosticism taught us to recognize that we are creators of our own reality.

Just like God, and I said well actually ma 'am. So obviously since she wasn't Barbara Boxer. She didn't object to me calling her ma 'am, but I said well actually ma 'am. You are not a creator. You are the created being Who has broken the law of your God and his wrath abides upon you.

And I just launched into the gospel, and I just kept staring right at her too, and I'd get done, and she just there be 15 seconds. Count out 15 seconds sometimes 15 seconds of just silence. Finally she threw out something about Jesus can't be this can't be the Davidic Messiah because he's not the son of David because the genealogy to something and I'm like oh, yeah, I'm gonna sit here and Try to go through all the different viewpoints that have been put out there by by various scholars you know the the two views viewpoint that it's Joseph's and One's Joseph and one's Mary's and and then the other viewpoints put out there by Carson others Don't think that's going to happen.

And so finally I suggested to her the lengthy discussion by Carson the lengthy discussion by Bach in their commentaries and I said you know you could easily get them you can remember the name da Carson well I might but she never ever cracked a smile never it was just this Strange experience that you could just tell there were a couple times I honestly thought that what was gonna happen at the end of one of these 15 seconds of silence was a right cross.

I mean that because you could tell she did not like what I was saying to her at all and so I was I was like You know I the conversation concluded. I turned to somebody else to finish putting some stuff away, and I turned back to look to see where just she was gone and when I talked to the pastor he had no earthly idea who this this one was that was one of the oddest conversations I've ever had after a speaking engagement and so Who knows?

It was well at one point. I even said I said something about and I referred to her as a Gnostic. Why do you think I'm a Gnostic. Well because you're promoting the Gnostics. I sort of figured the two went together.

You know I said oh, it was it was it was quite the interesting encounter really was so anyways We're gonna take our break, and then we'll be right back.

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Thank you.

And there's our pagan music rejoiner I know it's John Tash, but it still sounds, you know, I remember I was Anyway, all right. Let's I want to play some sections of the debate. Here is here is the I Want to get to the rebuttal period so I'm not sure if we're gonna have time to play all this fact I really won't but here's a here's a little section from Sham Siali that I want to Sort of go back and forth with a little bit We Don't know.

Now, of course I had pointed out that you know, I I have a problem with that. It strikes me that If Muhammad has nothing to do with this, this is the quandary that you are in as a Muslim. Explain to me the Zainab incident as it somehow ends up in the Quran from eternity past.

Now I suppose all you can say was well, you know God knew it was gonna happen and therefore he and he you know wrote all this long before it ever happened so that it would come down at the right time and and things like that, but I Think I have fairly noted the various sources in Ibn Kathir and other commentators on the subject of what happened with Zainab bin jash and Zayed bin Muhammad bin Muhammad and It just strikes me that there's some real problems with the story and you know I have to do is I'm gonna have to have one of ours uber-duber special guests on to do just do a an entire program on the Zainab situation because there's a lot to go over and I happen to happen to have a friend up in Chicago who has written a Lengthy a paper on the subject that might be good to go over.