March 14, 2017 Show with Kenneth Samples on “The Cult of the Virgin: Catholic Mariology & the Apparitions of Mary”

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

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Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Now here's our host Chris Arntzen. Good afternoon

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida and those listening internationally over the internet.

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This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all happy Monday. Actually it's a

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Tuesday on March 14th, 2017 and I think that I just lost my guest who

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God willing any moment will be calling back. His name is

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Kenneth R. Samples. He is philosopher, theologian, a former research consultant and correspondence editor at the

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Christian Research Institute, commonly known as CRI. He's former co -host of the

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Bible Answer Man radio broadcast, current senior research scholar at Reasons to Believe, author of Christian Endgame, Seven Truths that Changed the

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World, A World of Difference, Without a Doubt, and more. He's leader of Reason to Believe's Straight Thinking podcast.

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He's host of the Reflections blog, speaker at universities and churches worldwide, frequent guest on radio programs such as the

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Frank Sontag Show, Issues Etc and Stand to Reason. He's an adjunct professor at Biola University, member of the

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Evangelical Philosophical Society and the Evangelical Theological Society and the

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International Society of Christian Apologetics. And today we are discussing the very controversial book,

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The Cult of the Virgin, Catholic Mariology and the Apparitions of Mary and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron, Kenneth R.

02:48

Samples. Hey Chris, it's good to be with you. How are you? I'm doing much better now that I hear you on the phone line.

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I heard that we had some kind of a connection problem there. Yeah, well it's good to be connected with you and it's a pleasure to be on your program once again.

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Great and this is a book that we are going to be discussing that is not in print right now, although you can get it on Amazon, but I am so delighted that I know that Solid Grand Christian Books still has a lot of interest in bringing this book back into print and I am hoping that that occurs very shortly in the near future,

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God willing. The title is The Cult of the Virgin, Catholic Mariology and the

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Apparitions of Mary, a very controversial theme in a day and age where modern ecumenism seems to have put the importance of theology on one of the lowest rungs on the ladder of importance.

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In some cases it's not even on the ladder, but what was the catalyst for you writing

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The Cult of the Virgin, Catholic Mariology and the Apparitions of Mary? Yeah, very good.

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Well, back in the late 1980s I was working at the time at the Christian Research Institute and working with and for Walter Martin who was the original

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Bible Answer Man. We got lots of questions about the relationship between Protestant and Catholic theology, where do they agree, where do they disagree, how significant are the agreements and disagreements, and Walter Martin debated a

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Catholic theologian, a Jesuit scholar named Mitchell Pacwa. Yes, in fact

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I have arranged several debates with Father Pacwa back in the 1990s and perhaps the early 2000s.

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Yes, Father Pacwa has done a good bit of debating and I think still appears on the

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Eternal Word Network which is a Catholic television station. So Walter and Mitchell Pacwa debated a couple times, they became friends even though they held different perspectives as Catholics and Protestants certainly do, and Mitch mentioned to me that there was a phenomenon happening in a little city called

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Medjugorje. Now this is the former Yugoslavia, the country doesn't exist anymore, it's been divided up into multiple countries, but through that connection with Mitchell Pacwa and my interest in Catholicism, my colleague

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Elliot Miller who wrote the first part of The Cult of the Virgin, so Elliot looks at Catholic Mariology and compares it to a

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Protestant evangelical biblical point of view. I wrote the second half of the book that deals with the apparitions and I thought this would be a great opportunity to kind of look into the phenomenon and to compare it with what

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Catholics have said about other places like Guadalupe and Lourdes and Fatima, and so I took a trip there and was able to talk with those young people at the time, boy they're probably in their 40s and 50s now, but at the time they were called the seers of the apparition, and so I went there, it was a very interesting experience, came back, wrote a series of articles kind of evaluating

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Catholic Mariology and Catholic view of apparitions, and then we decided to put it into a book, and Baker Books at the time was interested, and so I think in 1992

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The Cult of the Virgin was published, and as you say, it's presently out of print, but you can get copies on amazon .com,

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and I am going to be contacting my colleague Elliot Miller and see if he's still interested maybe in pursuing a publisher, and Chris's good friend and mine has shown interest, so I'm excited about that.

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Let me give our listeners our email address if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question for Ken Samples on Marian apparitions and Mariology in general.

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Our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com,

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and please give us your first name, at least your city and state, and your country of residence. If you live outside of the

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USA, if you're asking about a personal and private matter that compels you to remain anonymous, perhaps for instance you disagree with your own church on this issue, perhaps you're a

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Roman Catholic and you just don't want to identify yourself, I understand that and we will keep you anonymous if that is your desire, but if it's not a personal and private matter, please at least give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence by emailing us a question at chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

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chrisarnsen at gmail .com, c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com.

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Ken, what is an apparition? Yeah, very good. An apparition is understood to be an appearance of a being, and so the word apparition comes from the

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Latin to make an appearance, and the Catholic, of course, interpretation has been that there have been legitimate appearances of the

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Virgin Mary in history. You know, officially the Catholic Church is very critical, and it tends to be very critical of looking at these kind of phenomena.

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They are not so much trying to say that they can affirm that this is a true appearance of the

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Virgin, a lot of times they take a very negative approach in saying that there isn't anything inconsistent with the so -called apparitions, but if you look at Medjugorje, if you look at Lourdes and other places,

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Fatima, you see that they have given great attention and have affirmed the appearance of Mary in these contexts.

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So it is an unusual phenomenon, some would call it kind of a strange phenomenon, and of course

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Protestants have generally been very critical of this kind of experience, arguing that it doesn't have a solid biblical basis, and in fact seems to place

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Mary on the wrong side. And what I mean by that, and I'm sure we can talk a bit about this later, but my big concern,

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Chris, with Catholic Mariology is just this, it seems to me that the titles that Mary gets are by and large

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Christological, that is, they are compared with, you know, Christological titles, and so those are some of the background issues that Protestants are concerned with in Mariology, and in particular with apparitions.

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Yes, and of course one of the things that disturb Bible believing

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Protestants most of all in regard to this is that although the

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Roman Catholic Church officially makes a distinction between worship and veneration, and they even make a distinction as to how

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Mary is to be venerated and how other saints are to be venerated, the biblical

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Protestant looks at what is said and being done in these acts of veneration and they don't see a distinction at all from those behaviors and worship.

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When you are kneeling in front of something, when you are praying to something, and when you are singing accolades to something, and you are giving that thing or person powers that belong only to be

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God, or you're assuming that those things, either those objects or those people have powers that belong only to God, that in a

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Protestant's mind, and I think very accurately, would be diagnosed as being an act of worship.

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Would you agree with that? Yeah, this is the challenge. The Catholic terminology,

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Latria, would be worshipped, and so God alone is to receive worship. The saints receive dulia, or devotion.

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Mary is to receive hyperdulia, or extreme devotion, and none of these distinctions are found in Scripture, per se, and I think the concern you have raised is a legitimate concern.

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Maybe Catholic theologians and Catholic philosophers can dice the difference between dulia, hyperdulia, and Latria, but untold millions of people throughout the world,

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I think, unfortunately, Chris, actually engage in idolatry, where they treat

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Mary as a divine or semi -divine creature. And I say that not wanting to overstate the case,

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I say that not because I don't have areas where I think

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Catholics and Protestants have common agreement, because they do, but I think that you've raised an issue that Protestants largely have always been concerned with, and that is that Mary is treated, the category you put

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Mary in the camp, she seems more like Christ than she does like merely a fully human being.

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So yes, on a practical matter, and again, I was baptized as a

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Catholic as a four -year -old, and I grew up attending Mass. I was baptized as a

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Catholic and grew up in the Catholic Church and was in Catholic parochial school from first to eighth grade.

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I was an altar boy, and I do not have nightmarish memories of being

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Catholic. I have a lot of fondness in my memories, but that has nothing to do with the theology that I came to embrace by God's grace and my eyes being opened to what

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I believe and what I think can certainly be proven from the scriptures is false heretical teaching that the

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Church of Rome embraces. In fact, the Church of Rome makes it clear, very clear, that officially in their dogma they have a different gospel than the

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Reformers and their heirs have because of the Council of Trent's anathemas specifically on the issues of justification and so on.

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Yeah, these are real issues. I think that there are important areas of agreement.

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Catholics affirm the Nicene Creed, there's a big slice of Christianity there. Certainly they affirm the

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Trinity, the deity of Christ, Christ's humanity. These are critical elements that other groups like Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons and others would deny, but when we get to these powerful differences, then the differences lie in the area of authority.

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Are we to accept Scripture as the supreme authority, sola scriptura, or is

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Church tradition on level with Scripture as an authority? You mentioned the doctrine of justification.

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Are we justified by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, or is it through the sacraments of the

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Church, by grace, through faith, but completed in works of loving obedience?

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And then, of course, these area of Mary and the saints are areas in which

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Protestants have always had real difficulty, and so my colleague and I, Elliot Miller, and I wrote this book because we thought it was a good opportunity to give a

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Protestant point of view, and to be fair, we had Mitch Pacwa, a

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Catholic priest, he wrote a response to it, and then we responded to him, so again, it's been out of print a while, but there's still some copies at Amazon.

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Yes, and how many apparitions do you know of that the

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Roman Catholic Church has been confronted with? I don't even know if you could number them all, and I'm sure there are different categories of them.

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There are quite a few. In chapter 11, I kind of give a survey of Marian apparitions, and of course in the book

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I talk extensively about Medjugorje. I should point out,

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Chris, that not only are there claims of a Catholic nature to Marian apparitions, but there are also claims within the

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Eastern Orthodox tradition to Marian apparitions, and so both of those branches of Christendom affirm a

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Mariology, even though there are some doctrinal differences between the Orthodox and Catholic when it comes to Mary, but some of the major Marian apparitions that have received significant support by the

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Catholic Church would be the Lord's apparition in France in 1858,

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Fatima, very popular in Portugal in 1917, a number of others have received proclamation and analysis, and there was even an apparition in so -called apparition in Bayside, New York in 1970, your neck of the woods, that received quite a bit of controversy.

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And it's true that the Catholic Church does not affirm and accept all of these apparitions, and they tend to be deliberate, they tend to be cautious, but when it comes to Lord's in Fatima, they receive a great deal of attention, and I've been to Mexico, and you know,

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Guadalupe receives a great deal of attention among Catholics in North America.

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And so which of the apparitions have been dogmatically accepted, if any, or officially accepted as being bona fide appearances of the actual mother of Jesus?

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By the Church of Rome, of course. Yeah, I would say that Lord's in Fatima have been given a higher state of validation than have some of the others.

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And even the one in Medjugorje, the former Yugoslavia, that one is criticized by the local bishop who

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I spoke with, and though at the time, Pope John Paul seemed to be somewhat sympathetic to it, but that's an unofficial kind of statement that I've heard from various Catholic thinkers.

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But you know, the Catholic Church tends to be critical, they have a lot to lose by backing something like this if it turns out to be fraudulent, or it turns out to represent some kind of occult theology, or something of that nature, but certainly

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Fatima and Lord's have been given greater prestige and honor, and rank higher in terms of evaluation.

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Yes, and I have met and corresponded with, and personally know,

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Roman Catholics of the more extreme right wing of the

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Church, the more conservative, and those who are also involved in the traditionalist

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Latin right movement, who vehemently oppose the

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Medjugorje apparition. They believe it is demonic, or perhaps some would believe it is just the rantings of charlatans, but some do believe it's demonic, and one of the reasons that they are convinced it is not truly an apparition of the mother of Jesus is because the apparition promotes the poem of the man -god.

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If you could explain something about that. Yeah, when I was in Medjugorje, I had the opportunity to interview those young people.

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At the time, they were in their mid -late teens, maybe early 20s at the time.

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I was also able to interview the priest there at St.

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James Parish, who was considered kind of the spiritual advisor to these young people.

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Also interviewed the local bishop, who I mentioned before was quite critical of the phenomena.

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In one of my discussions with one of the so -called seers, I had heard this story that a book had been recommended by the alleged apparition, and the book was

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Poem of the Man -God, which has connections to the occult. So I posed this question, and to some extent, the person, the seer, said that this was a book that had been mentioned.

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That, of course, sent up all kinds of red flags, because the truth of the matter is that people have all kinds of strange experiences throughout the history of humanity, and some of these strange experiences are undoubtedly, you know, hallucinations or imaginations or exaggerations, but some of them can be of a real spiritual significance, and some of those can be energized by a counterfeit.

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And so people have all kinds of experiences in the world of religion and the occult.

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It appears that one of the books that appears to have been recommended by the apparition was

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Poem of the Man -God. If that is the case, that is another very critical reason to think that maybe we're dealing with a demonic counterfeit.

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And again, you being raised

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Catholic, myself as well, you know, we are raised in kind of a context where anything said about the

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Virgin Mary is seen as kind of a sacred thing, and to question or to doubt or, you know, to raise serious concern that it may be some kind of counterfeit would be, you know, frowned upon, to say the least.

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But yeah, this certainly, you know, scored a lot of red flags for me, and I have been around enough of the study of cults and religions and various areas to know that the

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Bible doesn't talk about discernment for any small reason. This is a very critical area, and so that was something that I discuss in the book.

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Could this be, rather than being what some Catholics think it to be, could it be something like a spiritual counterfeit?

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And we do have a listener in Kinross, Scotland, Murray, and I'm looking for Murray.

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I just had Murray's question in front of me. Oh, here it is. What exactly is the

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Roman Catholic view regarding Mary repeatedly appearing on earth, supposedly?

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Do they consider that she enters, leaves, and re -enters heaven repeatedly, whereas Jesus does not?

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Do they claim omnipresence for her? If she appears here on earth, what is her precise heavenly state at that time?

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Don't they claim for her the title of Queen of Heaven? I'm just wondering how they reason it all out.

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So that is Murray in Kinross, Scotland. Yeah, those are a series of very good questions, and I'm not sure

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I understand all of the ways in which Catholics kind of parse this kind of discussion, but they obviously believe that Mary can make appearances in the world, and that on certain cases she has apparently done so.

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The questions about omnipresence, the questions about how Mary relates to other people in the world, these are very important questions, because if Mary is a creature, if Mary is a mere human being, then she doesn't have divine attributes, and so some of these areas are kind of blended, and I have doubts and questions about them myself, and so I think these are reasons to raise questions about how we can relate to Mary, and how does

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Catholic theology treat her, and is there a concern of giving her qualities and characteristics that seem more like her son?

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I mean, let me lay out a brief element here. I think Catholic Mariology parallels

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Christology. Jesus is born without sin, Mary's conceived without original sin,

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Jesus lived a sinless life, Mary remains sinless. After Jesus's resurrection, he ascends into heaven,

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Mary is assumed into heaven, Jesus is the mediator, Mary the mediatrix,

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Christ the redeemer. For some in Catholic theology, Mary is the co -redemptrix,

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Jesus is the king, Mary is the queen, Jesus is the new

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Adam, Mary is the new Eve. These are things that make me think again that the categories given to Mary appear to be more

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Christological than merely human, and that gives me real reason for concern.

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Yes, we're going to go to a break right now. By the way, thank you, Murray and Ken Ross Scotland, for your excellent questions.

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Keep listening to Iron Sharpens Iron, and keep spreading the word about it in Scotland and the

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UK and beyond. We're going to be right back. If anybody else would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com,

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chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away, we'll be right back with Ken's samples and more on the cult of the

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Or go to BatteryDepot .com. That's BatteryDepot .com. Welcome back, this is

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Chris Arns, and if you just tuned us in, our guest for the full two hours today is Kenneth R.

35:26

Samples. Many of you recognize his name from years ago when he was a co -host on the

35:32

Bible Answer Man radio program. Well today he is the current Senior Research Scholar at Reasons to Believe.

35:40

We are talking about a book that he co -authored with Elliot Miller, The Cult of the

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Virgin, Catholic Mariology and the Apparitions of Mary, and we are also delighted that this book, although currently out of print, may be,

35:55

God willing, coming back into print soon through Solid Ground Christian Books, because I know that the folks there, and in particular

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Mike Gaydosch, the founder of Solid Ground Christian Books, a dear friend of mine going back to the 1980s, he is very excited and enthusiastic to bring this book back into print if all goes well with getting the necessary permissions to get this book into the hands of a new publisher.

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But if you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

36:34

and before I return to our discussion, Ken, I think it would be helpful for some of our listeners who are totally ignorant about the level of devotion that Roman Catholics, that many

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Roman Catholics, give to Mary. I was actually surprised recently when

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I had a debate that I organized right here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania between two friends of mine, my friend

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Dr. Tony Costa, who is professor of apologetics at Toronto Baptist Seminary, debated my other friend,

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Robert St. Genes, who is a Roman Catholic apologist and the founder of Catholic Apologetics International.

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They debated on the theme, Mary, sinless queen of heaven or sinner saved by grace.

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And when I was having lunch with some folks who were evangelical

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Christians and had been for decades, some I think even were Christians since their childhood, and I was absolutely taken aback that they knew very little about the excesses of Marian devotion within the

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Roman Catholic Church and were shocked when I was being more specific with detail.

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But here is something that is not written by a quack that the

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Roman Catholics would denounce as being a nut or somebody who not to be trusted, somebody that should be avoided at all costs or anything like that, even remotely close to that.

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This is a citation that I'm about to provide from Alphonsus Liguori, St.

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Alphonsus Liguori, who was canonized as a Roman Catholic saint, and he lived in the 18th century.

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And this is a pretty startling description of the level of Marian devotion that Alphonsus Liguori demonstrated, that many

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Catholics today repeat not only in their own devotional life, but even have reprinted in their own books scholars who are considered to be praiseworthy men of renown in the

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Catholic Church that are to be taken seriously and listened to, have very favorably reprinted this prayer by Alphonsus Liguori.

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And this is how he says it, O mother of perpetual help, thou art the dispenser of all the gifts which

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God grants to us miserable sinners, and for this end he has made thee so powerful, so rich, and so bountiful, in order that thou mayest help us in our misery.

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Thou art the advocate of the most wretched and abandoned sinners who have recourse to thee.

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Come to my aid, dearest mother, for I recommend myself to thee.

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In thy hands I place my eternal salvation, and to thee

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I do entrust my soul. Count me among thy most devoted servants, take me under thy protection, and it is enough for me.

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For if thou will protect me, dear mother, I fear nothing, not from my sins, because thou wilt obtain for me the pardon of them, nor from the devils, because thou art more powerful than all hell together, nor even from Jesus my judge himself, because by one prayer from thee he will be appeased.

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But one thing I fear, that in the hour of temptation I may neglect to call upon thee, and thus perish miserably.

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Obtain for me then, O mother of perpetual health, the pardon of my sins, love for Jesus, final perseverance, and the grace to have recourse to thee always."

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Now that is utterly breathtakingly, astonishingly heretical, and I'm sure you would agree with that brother.

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Yeah, I mean, these are the kind of statements that give even people who, you know,

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I mean, I see areas of commonality between Catholics and Protestants, and you know,

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I have always tried to be very fair in my comparison, but you know, it is over -the -top statements like this that raise concerns among Protestants.

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How are we to think about Mary? Is she more like Christ, or more like us?

41:50

And what is the need to go to Mary if Christ is our unique Savior?

42:02

These are kind of foundational questions, because again, we do live at a time,

42:09

I think, where Catholics and Protestants are carrying on more dialogue than maybe they were 50 years ago, 100 years ago, certainly a lot more than they were hundreds of years ago at the time of the

42:22

Reformation, but these are questions. How can a

42:28

Protestant have common ground with Roman Catholics when statements are made about Mary that seem to place her more in a

42:38

Christological framework? So yeah, these are some of the real difficulties, and as you have suggested,

42:46

Chris, these are some of the practical difficulties. I mean, it's one thing for us to debate doctrinal and theological and quote the

42:54

Latin and make distinctions. It's another thing for a Catholic who no doubt is sincere, but seems to regard

43:05

Mary and relate to Mary in a way that you and I as Protestants would only relate to Christ.

43:12

And so yeah, there's common ground between Catholics and Protestants, particularly conservative, theologically conservative

43:19

Catholics and conservative Protestants as well. But this is one of the major areas of difference, and again,

43:28

I think it's played out in a practical sense, and I'll just say it. I think millions of people in the world, maybe they're not following the teaching of the

43:40

Catholic Church here, but they seem to worship Mary, and that's of great concern.

43:50

And I think that, in fact, I think that Benedict XVI, a recent

43:56

Pope before Francis, has even made statements, even though he has a very strong Marian devotion like all

44:03

Catholic theologians do, has made statements that there are times where Catholic Mariology has gotten out of hand, so to speak.

44:12

But yeah, you're exactly right. Some of the statements made in that writing or that presentation seem to put

44:22

Mary in the camp of Christ, and that would be a position that would be a heresy.

44:31

In fact, years ago, it was probably in the 1990s, the early 1990s, when

44:39

Dr. James R. White had one of his very first debates with Jerry Manatex, who, although is out of favor with mainstream

44:49

Catholicism today because he is what is known as a sativacantist, he is in a sect of Catholics that do not believe that they have had a genuine

45:00

Pope since the dawn of Vatican II, which puts him out of the mainstream of even conservative

45:09

Catholicism. But, at the time he debated

45:14

Dr. White in the early 1990s, he was in very good standing with the

45:19

Catholic Church and was the most highly recommended apologist by Catholic Answers, a very mainstream conservative

45:29

Catholic apologetics organization. And during the debate, when

45:36

Dr. White read that prayer by Alphonsus Liguori, Jerry Manatex said in response, and it is my hope that one day you can pray that prayer with me,

45:49

Mr. White. Wow. So this is like, I have to repeat, some people will scoff and say, oh come on, you can find all kinds of nutjobs saying things who are evangelical, let alone nutjobs who are

46:04

Catholics saying all kinds of outlandish, outrageous, and heretical things.

46:09

But the difference is this is a man, Alphonsus Liguori, who was canonized as a saint, who

46:15

Catholics pray to, and who many Catholic conservative

46:21

Orthodox in the realm of Roman Catholicism, that is, not

46:27

Eastern Orthodox, but those who are considered theologically Orthodox and doctrinally

46:32

Orthodox within the Roman Catholic Church, have very favorably quoted that prayer and reprinted it in their own writings, as I said.

46:42

And Chris, I think in a practical sense, I was giving a talk at my own church, and I mentioned that I've always been rather reluctant to maybe talk positively about Mary, maybe compare

46:57

Mary to, you know, one of the other followers of Jesus, and I think the reluctance kind of comes from the over -the -top statements that are made, the exaggerated and even heretical statements that are made about Mary.

47:13

I think Protestants have kind of reacted to that. Mary was an extraordinary individual.

47:20

Obviously, to give birth to the human nature of Christ, to the

47:26

Son of God, this was an extraordinary circumstance in her life, and she was a deep follower of her

47:37

Son. But again, I think it is the reaction that lots of us as Protestants have that, you know, and again,

47:50

I say it as somebody who tries to be very fair in these matters, it's hard not to think of a parallel to Christ when you hear these titles and you hear prayers like the ones that you've read.

48:02

And so, you know, it's a critical issue, as important as some of the common ground we have.

48:12

So also, these areas of difference are not small, they're not minor, and they have to be looked at very carefully and very critically, and so you have been involved in arranging a number of debates and dialogues between Catholics and Protestants, and it's because these issues are so relevant, because these issues are so important.

48:40

And you know, I think that you can have a respectful view of another position, but you've got to be very honest, and you've got to look at the differences and weigh them and measure them, and so that's why you've got such a good show.

49:04

Yes, well I think that if you are going to build and maintain valuable, meaningful friendships with people of other religions, you cannot sweep your differences under the rug.

49:17

I'm not saying that you are to use your differences as a battering ram or an axe that you swing at them.

49:26

I believe that though you cannot overlook these things, just as if you had a close friend who you love dearly, who had a serious eating disorder or an addiction or something that they were doing that was very detrimental, if not deadly, to their physical health.

49:46

There is no reason on earth why something that you would believe is spiritually dangerous should be a topic to be avoided.

49:53

I mean, if anything, that should be among the first and foremost things that you would have at least a time dedicated to discuss these things.

50:06

I'm not saying that you have to non -stop, perpetually bring these things up at Thanksgiving dinners and so on, but for us as the book of Proverbs says that faithful are the wounds of a friend, but deceitful are the kisses of an enemy.

50:29

I think that that is something that has really become a motto of mine when

50:37

I do these debates because the modern day that we live in the ecumenism has become so rampant and so dismissal of theology and doctrine that the meaning of Proverbs 27 -6 has been just totally been thrown out the window.

51:09

I mean, I think that these are truths that should be echoing in our hearts whenever we have a conversation with somebody of a different religion that we love.

51:19

But now, how does the Catholic Church decide, going back to our discussion on apparitions, which is our main theme today because that is what you wrote about in the book,

51:33

The Cult of the Virgin, what does the Catholic Church have to say about these appearances when they are notified about them and how do they decide what is an authentic apparition?

51:46

In fact, I am going to let you answer that when we return from our next break because I don't want to cut you off in mid -sentence and we got a break coming up in two minutes, so I'm just going to take that break early so that you will be able to answer it without interruption.

52:02

Very good. And if anybody would like to add us on the air with a question of your own for Ken Samples on the apparitions of Mary or any question at all regarding Mariology, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com,

52:16

chrisarnson at gmail .com. And please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

52:24

USA. And of course, you may remain anonymous if it makes you feel more comfortable. If you are a

52:30

Roman Catholic or an Eastern Orthodox individual, perhaps, or there's some other reason you do not want to identify yourself, we will honor your request.

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Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Welcome back, this is

01:01:55

Chris Arns, and if you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours, with just about an hour to go, is

01:02:01

Kenneth R. Samples, philosopher, theologian, former senior research consultant and correspondence editor at the

01:02:08

Christian Research Institute, which is known as CRI, former co -host of the Bible Answer Man radio broadcast, current senior research scholar at Reasons to Believe, author of Christian Endgame, Seven Truths that Changed the

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World, A World of Difference Without a Doubt, and more. He's the leader of Reason to Believe's Straight Thinking podcast.

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He's the host of the Reflections blog, a speaker at universities and churches worldwide, frequent guest on radio programs such as the

01:02:39

Frank Sontag Show, Issues, etc., and Stand to Reason, adjunct professor at Biola University, member of the

01:02:46

Evangelical Philosophical Society, the Evangelical Theological Society, and the International Society of Christian Apologetics.

01:02:53

We are discussing his book, The Cult of the Virgin, Catholic Mariology and the Apparitions of Mary.

01:02:59

If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

01:03:06

And by the way, some of you may be wondering why my co -host, the Reverend Buzz Taylor, is not with me today.

01:03:13

Well, that is because Pennsylvania, at least the area that the Reverend Buzz Taylor and I live in, among other places in the

01:03:22

Northeast, was hit by a very serious blizzard yesterday. In fact, it is still snowing outside, and Reverend Buzz Taylor would have to be a mountain climber right now to actually get out of his house and to get over here to the studio.

01:03:38

So hopefully the snow will be cleared away by tomorrow, and at least enough of it where we can get the

01:03:45

Reverend Buzz in here to join us on another program. I also want to remind Iron Sharpens Iron listeners that we are still in urgent need of new benefactors and sponsors.

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio is the easiest way to make out those checks because it's easy to remember. But anyway, we are returning to our discussion now with Ken Samples, which is the

01:06:48

Cult of the Virgin, Catholic Mariology and the Apparitions of Mary. And Ken, I think that I also would like to assert here that I do not believe all

01:07:00

Catholics are damned. People automatically assume that if you have serious criticisms over their theology that that automatically means you believe that each and every person in that religious system is damned.

01:07:15

No, I don't believe that. I believe that many Roman Catholics will be there in heaven with me in spite of their theology, not because of it.

01:07:29

And there are many Roman Catholics, certainly a minority, but there are many I'm sure globally and of course throughout the centuries there have been many who did not believe in the

01:07:43

Roman Catholic dogmatized gospel as defined at the Council of Trent. There are many

01:07:48

Catholics who either through naivete or ignorance of what their own church teaches about the gospel and actually believe the true biblical gospel, or there are those who sometimes remain in the

01:08:01

Catholic church and think that they're going to be a modern -day

01:08:06

Martin Luther or something. And of course you do have Catholics that were martyred by the

01:08:12

Catholic church, who never departed from that church, but who believed in biblical truths that led them to their deaths.

01:08:19

But I know that you are in some realm of agreement with me on that little speech there, Ken. I am, and I think it's important, you know, particularly on a show where looking at one of the areas of great dispute.

01:08:35

There's a quote from John Calvin, and it's hard to get more Calvinist than Calvin. Calvin, he said, while the church was in his mind a false, the

01:08:45

Catholic church was a false church, there were many true Christians within its ranks. And that has been my experience.

01:08:55

I have known Catholics that I believe are authentically Christian. I have to agree with you, sometimes it's more in spite of what the church teaches than because of what the church teaches.

01:09:07

But I don't treat Catholics the way I would Jehovah's Witnesses or the

01:09:12

Mormons. But having said that, that doesn't mean that there aren't real significant differences.

01:09:19

And so I appreciate the way you approach this topic, and I've always appreciated that you try to get good people on all sides and state the views as carefully as we can.

01:09:33

Chris, I think that's what I would call the golden rule of apologetics. You try to treat other people's views the way you want yours treated.

01:09:41

Namely, be fair, be respectful, and I think that's very appropriate when it comes to this topic.

01:09:49

Yes, and I am saddened by the fact, just to re -quote

01:09:54

Proverbs 27 and 6, that faithful are the wounds of a friend, but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful.

01:10:01

There are many people blowing kisses at each other today who are more concerned over the feelings of their friends and family members, or perhaps even more concerned about what they can get out of those people than they are over their never -dying souls.

01:10:19

And if you're going to be a faithful friend, you will wound them on occasion with the truth that sometimes wounds a person.

01:10:30

And by the way, not only do I view Roman Catholics as a mission field, I view a great portion of modern -day evangelicalism just as much as a mission field.

01:10:40

There are many evangelicals that have very bizarre and unbiblical concepts of salvation, heretical understandings of the gospel and of theology, and I will be the first to admit that not only will there be many modern evangelicals absent from heaven, but there is no guarantee you're going to heaven, even if you are a

01:11:02

Calvinist or Baptist, if you are just a false professor. So, I mean, there are false professors all over the place.

01:11:10

Well said. Very good. Well, going back to our subject at hand, in fact,

01:11:16

I wanted to return to the question I asked before the station break. And by the way,

01:11:22

I hope that it doesn't annoy our listeners too much that we have an elongated station break in the middle of the two hours of our program.

01:11:29

That is because Grace Life Radio in Lake City, Florida, who airs our program every day as a rerun in morning drive time and in the evening, they require our show comes to them in two 54 -minute segments.

01:11:45

So that's why we have to break up the show with a very elongated gap with commercials.

01:11:51

But before the break, I had asked you, how does the

01:11:56

Roman Catholic Church decide what is an authentic apparition? Because there are many apparitions that I am assuming even the more scholarly or respected

01:12:09

Catholic theologian or cleric is going to denounce or even laugh at.

01:12:16

I mean, there are some, I even visited the site of a Catholic apparition or a

01:12:23

Marian apparition that was in Clearwater, Florida. I don't know if it still exists, but there was an office building that had a sprinkler system that was spraying water perpetually for an elongated period of time on a window or a series of window panes that had sun protection screen on them or something.

01:12:49

There was some kind of a film on the windows to protect or prevent sunlight to come into the office buildings, the offices, and the water caused a weird multicolored stain that some

01:13:09

Catholics adopted as an apparition of Mary and some Catholics actually purchased the building and set up a little museum where they had people coming in where they could buy

01:13:20

Catholic trinkets and so on and come see the apparition of Mary. And it's interesting how some of these apparitions that are allegedly of Mary, they could easily also be the angel of death or any cloaked hooded figure because you can't really tell that it's even a female apparition or you can't even tell it's supposed to look like a female apparition or Mary herself on many occasions.

01:13:46

But if you could comment about that. I remember reading that story and, you know, finding it fascinating.

01:13:55

In my book, Chapter 10, I have a section called How Does the Church Decide? What process does the

01:14:02

Catholic Church go into in looking at Marian apparitions? Again, an appearance, a reality of a figure in the world.

01:14:13

And obviously, the diocese of the local church has to decide whether there's sufficient reason to investigate a particular claim.

01:14:23

And you're right. The vast majority of claims go uninvestigated. If they decide, like in the case of Medjugorje, it usually begins with the local bishop.

01:14:36

If it's an extensive alleged appearance of Mary, it might involve, you know, a commission.

01:14:46

You may have theologians, psychologists, trained professional people involved.

01:14:51

I know in the case of Medjugorje, the young people had gone through quite a number of tests, physical tests, tests even while they were allegedly having an apparition.

01:15:04

So there was sometimes an evaluation. And obviously, the central evaluation here is, is this something that is consistent?

01:15:14

Is it in accord with official Catholic teaching? So they may look at the messages.

01:15:21

They may ask, is there good fruit that comes from this? Is there any kind of healings or miracles that can be associated with this?

01:15:30

Lourdes, for example, has a whole area, a hospital devoted to people who claim to have been healed in association with the alleged apparition.

01:15:43

So the question is, is it in accord with Catholic teaching? Obviously, though, you're not required as a

01:15:51

Catholic to believe in an apparition in terms of assenting to Catholic belief.

01:15:57

These are not beliefs that you must hold in order to be a good Catholic.

01:16:03

But here is another evaluation given by Rene Laurentin.

01:16:09

He is a Catholic theologian, a specialist in the area of Mariology. He has five characteristics of what might be an authentic apparition.

01:16:22

One, does it manifest the hidden presence of God? Two, does it renew community life?

01:16:27

Three, does it lead to the conversion of hearts? Four, does it promote the awakening and stimulation of faith?

01:16:33

Five, does it renew hope and dynamism in the Church? Out of that evaluation come four areas of ultimate evaluation.

01:16:45

The first one would be that it contradicts Catholic teaching, and therefore it would be prohibited, it would be at odds with official teaching of the

01:16:55

Catholic Church. A second category of evaluation, and this is probably the vast majority of so -called apparitions, it just simply, there is, the

01:17:08

Catholic Church chooses to say nothing officially about it. And again, this would be the vast majority of apparitions.

01:17:18

A third category is that it's not contrary to Catholic faith and morals. So it is potentially something that could be consistent.

01:17:28

And then the fourth and highest category of evaluation would be given a positive affirmation of the

01:17:34

Church, or to put it in Catholic terms, quote, worthy of pious belief, unquote.

01:17:41

Obviously, three and four are the more positive, and there are very few apparitions that fit into either three or four.

01:17:50

So Catholics go about a process, and obviously they have a lot to lose if they hook their wagon to something that ends up being contrary to their own teaching or problematic.

01:18:06

So you don't have to believe in any of the apparitions, Lourdes, Fatima, Guadalupe, Medjugorje, you don't have to believe any of them to be a good

01:18:14

Catholic. But those that are in the category of three and four can be seen as consistent or in a very positive light.

01:18:23

That's kind of the overview of how the Church goes about evaluating these things.

01:18:29

And again, the vast majority, they say nothing about. Now, is it acceptable within the

01:18:36

Church of Rome to be a Catholic and denounce such apparitions that have been welcomed by the hierarchy of Rome and the papacy, like Lourdes, like Fatima?

01:18:54

Can you as a Catholic say, no, I disagree, with all due respect, I think that these are evil, satanic manifestations, or what have you?

01:19:02

Or must you just remain silent and tolerate the veneration that is going on by your fellow

01:19:09

Catholics? That's a very good question. I think my answer would be that these are private beliefs, and so again, you are not required to believe in any of the apparitions, but there are some of the apparitions that have been given a very high evaluation, a category of at least being consistent with the

01:19:37

Catholic faith and maybe even worthy of pious belief. I think if you were to downgrade those apparitions that are seen in the highest light, you may have problems.

01:19:50

But unofficially, you don't have to buy any of it. And that's important,

01:19:57

I think, because again, there is a distinction between what would be considered official

01:20:03

Catholic doctrine and these more subjective, these more private types of religious experiences.

01:20:11

Now, what about in the opposite end of the spectrum? Those who are rejecting or ignoring the warnings of the church, or perhaps a local bishop, and are pursuing the veneration of these apparitions anyway?

01:20:35

Like for instance, I know that even Medjugorje, as we mentioned on our last interview, that has been denounced by the local bishop there in the area.

01:20:50

But that one is probably more still open for personal interpretation.

01:20:58

But there are others, like for instance, there is a a cult in Texas that I think that even many, if not most, or all

01:21:08

Catholic clerics denounce as a false apparition of Mary that seems to be revisiting this area in Texas that has basically, a cult has risen out of it, a

01:21:22

Catholic cult. I don't know if you're familiar with what I'm talking about. National Geographic actually did a documentary on it.

01:21:28

I think they call it the Cult of Mary or something like that. I'm really glad you raised this question.

01:21:37

Again, the question of what about these apparitions that are seen as being false, as being anti -Christian, that kind of thing.

01:21:54

And again, I would say, and I met the bishop in Medjugorje, and you're right, he was adamantly against it.

01:22:02

He thought that this was false, and he had a lot of things to say that I can't necessarily convey that he told me privately, but there was a deep suspicion and a real rejection of this happening.

01:22:20

And so while some Catholic thinkers, various kinds, I'm told that John Paul was at least initially sympathetic to the idea.

01:22:30

Again, I can't confirm that personally, but I know the bishop was opposed to it. And it raises this question in my mind,

01:22:38

Chris, and I think it's a really important one. What I really wish is that Catholic thinkers,

01:22:48

Catholic leaders, bishops, theologians, would actually police their ranks.

01:22:55

That is, that they would come out and say, you know what, we've gone overboard with Mary.

01:23:02

Protestants are critical of our views, but some of us have gone even further than what the

01:23:08

Catholic Church allows. I think at times, I mean, this is my impression,

01:23:13

I have no wish to misrepresent, but this is coming from somebody who looks at the issue very carefully and tries not to overstate or to be anti -Catholic.

01:23:26

It seems at times that when it comes to Marian issues of apparitions, or even of just general devotion, there aren't checks and balances.

01:23:39

There aren't enough critiques and evaluations. And again,

01:23:45

I think it would be right for the Pope to just come out and say, you know what, millions of people throughout the world worship

01:23:52

Mary, and that's wrong, and that's inconsistent with our teaching, and our local bishops and our priests need to educate our people.

01:24:01

But it seems, and I put the emphasis upon seems, it seems that when it comes to Mariology, there are very few checks and balances in a practical way.

01:24:12

And so I think there's kind of an easy believism that anything that smacks of a

01:24:23

Marian apparition may be authentic, and I think that the official evaluation is much more deliberate, much more critical, much slower, but in, you know, among many of the laypeople, you know, so you have a strange image that appears on the building, and you don't recognize that, you know, maybe it's the sun passing through glass and all these kinds of things.

01:24:49

But yeah, I wish that, I wish Catholic theologians, I wish the

01:24:55

Pope himself would say that there are Marian perversions, there are

01:25:03

Marian heresies, and it's not right to go over the top.

01:25:10

Now, again, as Protestants, we may not ever accept what they officially say, but it would be nice if the

01:25:20

Catholic Church would police its ranks. And of course it'd be even nicer if the Popes and the Bishops and the

01:25:26

Cardinals and the Priests converted to Biblical Christianity. And by the way, that's a bigger prayer.

01:25:35

Yes. And by the way, I misspoke, a listener in New York, CJ from Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York, brought me to the attention of the

01:25:48

National Geographic website that featured the program The Cult of Mary, it's on their

01:25:54

Explorer program. The Cult of Mary, the cult was not in Texas, or is not in Texas, it's in Alabama.

01:26:03

So if you go to the National Geographic website and look up The Cult of Mary, you'll be able to find the documentary on this specific group that even many, if not most,

01:26:15

Catholic clerics are denouncing. We do have a listener in Slovenia, Joe in Slovenia, and I'm going to ask

01:26:24

Joe's question to you, and then you can answer it when we return from the break.

01:26:30

This will give you some more time to think about it, since I don't want to interrupt you while you're answering his question.

01:26:37

But Joe in Slovenia says, Dear Brother Chris, Slovenia is steeped in Roman Catholicism, and he provides a link to the

01:26:45

Mary pilgrimage route in Slovenia. What are the most important things to do and not to do in talking with someone who is practicing this idolatrous activity?

01:26:56

How do we go about engaging in apologetics with the run -of -the -mill Roman Catholic? Thanks for helping us present true biblical

01:27:04

Christianity to those caught in Mariology. So you can answer that question when we return from our final break,

01:27:12

Ken. Very good. And if anybody else would like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

01:27:19

chrisarnson at gmail .com, and we will get to as many of you as we can before we run out of time. So those who are already waiting, please continue to be patient, and we'll be back with you as soon as possible.

01:27:30

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01:33:00

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01:33:26

Eastern Time for A Visit to the Pastor's Study, because everyone needs a pastor. Welcome back.

01:33:32

This is Chris Arns, and if you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours with about 25 minutes to go is

01:33:38

Ken Samples. We are discussing his book, The Cult of the Virgin. And before the break,

01:33:44

Ken, as you know, I was reading a question from our listener in Slovenia, Joe, and he asked, what are the most important things to do and not to do in talking with someone who is practicing this idolatrous activity, and how do we go about engaging in apologetics with the run -of -the -mill

01:34:00

Roman Catholic? Joe, that's a great question. I'm really glad you asked it, because that's near and dear to my heart.

01:34:09

I have Catholic relatives, I have Catholic friends. I'm going to recommend four things.

01:34:15

The first thing I would do is, I would explain to my Catholic friend, my Catholic relative, that apparitions are private and subjective, and even the

01:34:24

Catholic Church doesn't require you to believe them. So I want to get them evaluating the idea that these are subjective experiences and therefore have to be looked at carefully.

01:34:36

The second thing that I would say to a Catholic is, I would say, look, the idea of Catholic Mariology and all the titles that she has and all the honors that she's given, as well as apparitions, that this really is both a

01:34:51

Catholic and Orthodox phenomenon. There's a whole branch of Christendom called

01:34:56

Protestantism that doesn't accept this form of devotion.

01:35:02

So you need to realize that you want to hopefully get all sides of the issue and not just hear one side of the issue.

01:35:12

The third point, and here is where I'm going to begin taking into Scripture, I'm going to say, look, as a

01:35:18

Catholic, you believe in the Bible's inspiration. You even believe in its authority.

01:35:25

And when we go through the Bible, the Bible has a lot to say about the importance of discernment and reflection and being careful.

01:35:34

The Bible talks extensively about counterfeit Gospels and counterfeit

01:35:41

Christ and false gods, false Gospels, etc. So the

01:35:46

Bible says that, here I'm going to quote John Calvin, that the human mind is like an idolatry factory.

01:35:55

It's ready to run away with all kinds of false ideas.

01:36:01

So I want to convey to them that it's critical to be discerning and to be reflective, and we honor

01:36:07

God when we're careful and we're thoughtful. Joe, the fourth point would be,

01:36:13

I'd want to convey that I think that Catholic Mariology challenges

01:36:21

Christian Christology, and that devotion to Mary, I think, compromises a unique devotion to the

01:36:32

Lord Jesus Christ. And, you know, I remember being part of a charismatic

01:36:38

Catholic community when I was in my late teens, early 20s, and there was a

01:36:44

Catholic priest who said to me one day, he was a charismatic, and he said,

01:36:49

Ken, I know I see you coming to Mass, I think you're a pretty good Catholic, but I want to ask you a question.

01:36:56

Do you know Jesus as your Savior? Is he really your Savior? That stunned me.

01:37:02

That really made me ask myself deep questions. He was really asking, are you just a person who's born into a cultural

01:37:13

Catholic context, or do you really know Jesus as your Savior? That began a whole process of me reading

01:37:21

Scripture, thinking seriously about theology, asking questions in the

01:37:27

Catholic Church. For me, it led me to leave the Catholic Church and to embrace a

01:37:32

Protestant Christianity. But again, I think it's important to be able to give guidance, to give direction, and to ask good questions.

01:37:43

And, you know, as Chris says, and I think it's right on the money, that, you know, there are areas in which

01:37:51

Catholics and Protestants and Orthodox agree, and there are areas in which we firmly disagree, and I think we would do each other a disservice if we were not candid, if we were not honest.

01:38:04

It doesn't mean we have to beat people over the head, and it certainly doesn't mean we misrepresent each other, but these are real differences, and so that would be kind of my four -point advice, if you will.

01:38:17

Excellent. Don't you think something needs to be corrected in the thinking of Catholics?

01:38:25

What I routinely hear in defense of Catholic alleged apparitions of Mary, when they hear me protesting against them and warning about them, is how could this not be from God, and how could this not be

01:38:47

Mary herself, if the apparition is urging people to repent and follow her son

01:38:53

Jesus? Now, isn't that a very naive and gullible way of looking at any messenger that claims to be promoting

01:39:04

Jesus and his teachings? I mean, you have Joseph Smith who had apparitions of his own that he claims to have seen in upstate

01:39:14

New York, not of Mary, but, you know, you have all kinds of—you even have, as we were discussing, disagreements amongst

01:39:24

Catholics about the Marian apparitions, and some—even that bishop locally in Medjugorje believes that it is a demonic activity going on there.

01:39:36

So, if even Catholics can disagree with that, don't you think that more caution should be put toward accepting things just because they are, they appear to be supernatural manifestations of something that are giving a positive message of Jesus, at least on the surface it seems to be giving a positive message of Jesus?

01:40:00

Yeah, I think you raise a great issue, Chris. You know, if you drink poison, it can make you terribly sick, it may even kill you.

01:40:12

There is, excuse me, there is spiritual poison. There are false beliefs and false doctrines and false teachings that can enslave the soul, that can drive you out of historic

01:40:29

Christianity. I think when they talk about evaluating fruit, I think even the evaluation that the

01:40:36

Catholic Church does probably needs much more rigor, because, you know, okay, yeah, this apparition wants people to follow

01:40:46

Jesus. And who do they say that Jesus is? And what did that Jesus come to do?

01:40:53

I think you're right, we need a lot more evaluation. And it goes back to a point

01:40:59

I made earlier. It often seems in the Catholic world that anything that, you know, gives honor to Mary is okay.

01:41:07

I think Catholics need to hear that there can also be false

01:41:14

Marys, just like there are false Christs and false gods. And I want to make one other point.

01:41:20

There was a book out, it came out a couple years ago, Chris, on the

01:41:26

Trinity, written by an evangelical theologian, Michael Reeves. And in the book,

01:41:33

Reeves was talking briefly about devotion to the Virgin, kind of in a historical theological context.

01:41:41

This book is called Delighting in the Trinity. It's a very good book. Anyway, Michael Reeves made the point that in church history, there was concern on the part of some that, you know,

01:41:54

Christians couldn't go to the Father and the Son, because they were too holy, they were too stern.

01:42:00

And the thought was, well, maybe we need an intermediary, you know, we need somebody to go on our behalf.

01:42:09

Maybe it'd be better if we had kind of a feminine, because the feminine has the compassion, so maybe we can go to Mary to get to Jesus.

01:42:19

Well, I think a lot of people think that way, whether that is the way

01:42:25

Catholic theology came in terms of Mariology or not. Chris, there are a lot of people who just don't think that they can come to Jesus.

01:42:33

They don't think that they can come to the Trinity, because this God is stern, and they are so sinful that they need somebody to plead their case.

01:42:43

That's why I say maybe a good bit of Catholic Mariology is a misunderstanding of Christian theology and Christian Christology, that Jesus Christ came into the world to save us, that his death is a way of forgiving our sin, that we can come to him, and we can call out to him.

01:43:07

And I think there are times where, again, we want to draw people back into hopefully a more

01:43:15

Christocentric focus, a more Trinitarian focus. Maybe some of the extremes of Catholic Mariology are the result of maybe not understanding the genuine grace of God that is offered to us in the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus.

01:43:33

Amen. And the idea that just because something is uplifting

01:43:42

Jesus, at least that appears to be, is something that should not only be swallowed wholesale by Catholics, but evangelicals from their television screens and their computer screens and their radio speakers are hearing all kinds of false

01:44:03

Jesuses and false Gospels being presented. So it's not just the

01:44:10

Roman Catholic that needs to be leery of just accepting something that promotes

01:44:17

Jesus. It's all of humanity, because there are false

01:44:23

Christs, just as there are false Marys, and as I have repeated several times, even the

01:44:29

Catholic Church has repeatedly said there are false Marys that appear in dubious apparitions.

01:44:39

Yeah, you're right. I mean, we live at a time where, well, the truth of the matter is that Christian television,

01:44:49

Christian radio, to many of our churches, are not places in which people learn sound

01:44:57

Christian doctrine, who are taught from Scripture, who come to believe the great truths of historic

01:45:04

Christianity. And so there are lots of statements about salvation, lots of statements about Jesus and the

01:45:14

Trinity that are convoluted, some are clearly heretical, and so it's not merely problems in the

01:45:22

Catholic Church. There are problems in many ways, and again, I get back to Scripture.

01:45:29

Scripture talks about being discerning, being reflective, being careful. Why? Because these issues are way too important.

01:45:37

Your salvation is way too important, and just as you can drink poison and endanger your life, you can imbibe spiritual counterfeits that are poison, and they can trap you and take you away from God.

01:45:56

And so these are issues that are very important, and it applies also to the evangelical

01:46:03

Protestant world, where too often we are fast and loose when it comes to Christian doctrine.

01:46:10

Tyler in Mastic Beach, Long Island, New York says, is the problem with the

01:46:15

Roman Catholic Church not only the Gospel, but also the doctrine of Scripture alone?

01:46:23

And obviously he means the rejection of the doctrine of sola scriptura, or Scripture alone.

01:46:28

I think that that's what all of these discussions boil down to, don't they? I think so.

01:46:34

You know, I've done a few debates myself, I've been involved in some dialogues with Catholic apologists, with Catholic theologians.

01:46:43

A number of years ago I did debate with Father Pacwa, and we debated the authority of Scripture.

01:46:50

Is it Scripture alone, or is it Scripture and Catholic tradition? And I think that, you know, that's an incredibly important issue.

01:47:02

And I would say two brief things to that, Chris, that there's something about Scripture.

01:47:07

It is alive, it is active, it is inspired, it carries the

01:47:13

Holy Spirit in a way that can't be duplicated, it can't be replicated in tradition, as valuable as I see tradition is at times.

01:47:23

There is some power, a force, in Scripture that can't be duplicated even in church councils.

01:47:33

And I would also, you know, make the point here that this really is an ultimate question.

01:47:42

Chris, I would not only say the fundamental issue of Christianity is a question of authority, but having taught courses in world's religions, it's almost always in religion a question of authority.

01:47:56

So our views of justification, our views of Mary, our views of various other issues extend from that real question of where is the ultimate

01:48:06

Christian authority, and how do we understand the biblical text. R .J.

01:48:12

in White Plains, New York, wants to know how to answer Catholics who insist that the apparitions of Mary they have heard about and embraced are true because of the miraculous aspects, such as thousands of seeing the dancing of the sun, and so on.

01:48:33

Very good question, R .J. I appreciate you asking it. You know, in my book,

01:48:38

The Cult of the Virgin, the latter part of the book deals with apparitions. And I raise the question, you know,

01:48:44

Jesus' ministry seems to me, when He performed the miraculous, very different than the apparitions of Mary.

01:48:53

You know, Jesus healed the lepers. Jesus healed people who were blind. Jesus touched and restored people's limbs.

01:49:03

When it comes to apparitions, a lot of times the miracles are, you know, a dancing sun, or, you know, things turning into silver and gold.

01:49:14

Now, I know there are claimed apparitions connected with lords that involve, you know, alleged miracles.

01:49:23

But oftentimes, these so -called supernatural ideas, they seem flimsy.

01:49:30

They don't really seem like what I would expect from the healing ministry of Jesus.

01:49:36

They seem showy. They seem exotic. Frankly, they seem counterfeit.

01:49:45

Yes, well, even the devil has masqueraded as an angel of light, still does masquerade as an angel of light, and he has counterfeit miracles.

01:49:59

I mean, the Bible warns that there will be counterfeit miracles. So, it's interesting that Catholics would give something the seal of approval because of something miraculous, when even organizations and religious groups that they oppose report miracles.

01:50:18

I mean, you can go from the Word of Faith Pentecostal movements, even to Eastern religions, that report miracles that have convinced many, you know, give a seal of approval from God or from deity, from their deity, that these things are genuine.

01:50:43

And I think that we should never forget the warning in Matthew chapter 7, which is a very serious warning for all of us,

01:50:57

I believe, and we have Jesus himself saying, not everyone who says to me,

01:51:06

Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

01:51:13

Many will say to me on that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons, and in your name perform many miracles?

01:51:26

Then I will tell them plainly, I never knew you away from me, you evildoers.

01:51:33

Now, Jesus doesn't say when they made these claims of the miraculous, no, he didn't.

01:51:40

He doesn't contradict them. He didn't say that they didn't perform miracles. He didn't say that they didn't drive out demons.

01:51:46

He didn't say that they didn't prophesy in his name. But it's interesting that all of that paled into insignificance, because they were not doing the will of the

01:51:55

Father who is in heaven. I mean, Chris, what would Christendom be like?

01:52:00

What would evangelicalism be like if, you know, 1 Thessalonians 5 .21

01:52:06

was rigorously applied? Test all things, hold on to that which is good. When it comes to things like subjective spiritual experiences, apparitions, and all of these things, things need to be vigorously tested.

01:52:22

And, you know, I said to Father Pacwa in my debate with him that I think the person who argues most vigorously for the unique authority of Scripture is

01:52:33

Jesus himself. And so, you know, there's something in that is unique, and that's that first sola, sola scriptura.

01:52:44

Scripture is the supreme authority. And how do these apparitions affect

01:52:50

Catholic piety, at least in your opinion? It's a great question, and I, you know,

01:52:56

I'll tell you, I think that in some ways they really do. I mean, when you think about Guadalupe, and you think about some of the traditional

01:53:07

Catholic prayers, there are times where these apparitions have become so popular that they actually kind of creep into Catholic devotion.

01:53:18

And again, another reason to, you know, to look at these.

01:53:24

I mean, when you pray these traditional

01:53:29

Catholic prayers, you know, write them out. Go on the web and look very carefully at the prayers.

01:53:37

What titles is Mary given? How is she, you know, how is it expressed?

01:53:44

You know, when you say, Hail Mary, full of grace, what are those words?

01:53:50

And I think it's critical. So the answer to your question is that these apparitions have, in fact, affected the way many

01:53:59

Catholics in the world approach their spiritual life, and that's another reason to test them vigorously.

01:54:06

And in this day and age of pluralism, multiculturalism, modern ecumenicalism or ecumenism, don't we have to separate those things that are hills that we must be willing to die on, and those things that are of less importance?

01:54:33

Like, for instance, you and I, we have our differences. You are a pato -baptist.

01:54:39

You believe in infant baptism. I'm a reformed pato -baptist. You are, from what I can recall, in fact, since you work for Reasons to Believe, I understand that you are an old earth creationist, where I am a young earth creationist.

01:54:54

And there are things like that that genuine believers can disagree on. But there are certain lines that when you cross them, there is no room for just the live and let live attitude.

01:55:09

I mean, if you look at what happened to Nadab and Abihu in the Old Testament, for merely putting their own mixture of ingredients in the incense bowls, the

01:55:21

Lord caused them to be consumed in flame and killed them for false worship.

01:55:27

Now, he isn't doing that today, but I don't think he views false worship any differently.

01:55:33

I don't think he views it with less severity. He's just being merciful in that way and being patient in this day and age where we don't see people spontaneously bursting into flame all the time.

01:55:46

I think you raise what I consider an absolutely critical point,

01:55:52

Chris, and that is, you know, if you're going to die on the hill, and dying is a big thing, if you're going to die on the hill, you don't want to die on a hill that is of a secondary nature.

01:56:03

I mean, you and I have differences. There are differences among even Protestant Christians.

01:56:10

There are some differences between Catholics and Protestants that are not nearly as significant as others.

01:56:17

But I think it's important that there is solid discussion in our churches, in our schools, about what is essential

01:56:24

Christian doctrine. Why is the doctrine of justification such a critical doctrine?

01:56:31

Why does Paul in the book of Galatians talk about another gospel and let him be accursed?

01:56:39

I mean, these are chilling things. We want to look at them very carefully, and so you're right, there are people who die on a hill

01:56:46

I don't think they need to die on. But there are other people, I think, sometimes compromise things that are absolutely essential, and that's not something you want to do.

01:56:59

That can be, you know, spiritually, that can lead you to a place where you can be outside of the

01:57:09

Christian faith. So these are very discerning things. People should be very reflective about these things.

01:57:18

And again, to make the point, we're critiquing primarily a

01:57:23

Catholic phenomenon in the last two hours, but there are many things that in the evangelical world that are sloppy, that are convoluted, you know, sometimes even heretical, and they go on and on without...

01:57:40

As I call for Catholic theologians to police their ranks about Mary, it'd be good for evangelical

01:57:46

Protestants to police their ranks when it comes to the health, wealth, and prosperity gospel, and all kinds of other things that I think are deeply unbiblical.

01:57:55

Well, Ken, I want to let our listeners know that if they want to purchase this book, The Cult of the

01:58:01

Virgin, Catholic Mariology and the Apparitions of Mary, right now the best place to go is Amazon, because the book is out of print.

01:58:09

We hope that you will be able to get it within the months ahead through solid -ground -books .com.

01:58:20

That's the website for Solid Ground Christian Books. We hope that something develops soon with that new publication of this book.

01:58:29

I also wanted to quickly highly recommend the two books, Mary, Another Redeemer, with a question mark.

01:58:36

That's a very important punctuation mark. Mary, Another Redeemer, question mark, by Dr. James R.

01:58:42

White, and also his book, The Roman Catholic Controversy, which you can get through aomin .org,

01:58:49

a -o -m -i -n dot org. And I know that your website, where you work at Reasons to Believe, that's reasons .org,

01:59:00

reasons .org. Any other contact information you care to give? If you go on Amazon and you type in The Cult of the

01:59:07

Virgin, type in Ken Samples, because there's a couple books by that title. And on thereasons .org,

01:59:14

I have a new book out, God Among Sages. Chris interviewed me just a short week or so ago, so it's been great having the opportunity to be with you and your listeners.

01:59:25

Yes, and we have a number of other dates already scheduled for you to return, and I'm looking forward to that on other books.

01:59:32

Thank you, Chris. I want to thank everybody who listened today. I want to thank especially those who took the time to write in questions for Ken Samples.

01:59:41

I look forward to your future questions for other guests that we have on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater