March 14, 2017 Show with Kenneth Samples on “The Cult of the Virgin: Catholic Mariology & the Apparitions of Mary”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Now here's our host, Chris Arntzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida and those

listening internationally over the internet.

This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Monday.

Actually, it's a Tuesday on March 14th, 2017.

And I think that I just lost my guest, who God willing, any moment

we'll be calling back.

His name is Kenneth R. Samples.

He is philosopher, theologian, a former research consultant and correspondence

editor at the Christian Research Institute, commonly known as CRI.

He's former co -host of the Bible Answer Man radio broadcast, current senior research

scholar at Reasons to Believe, author of Christian Endgame, Seven Truths

That Changed the World, A World of Difference, Without a Doubt, and more.

He's leader of Reason to Believe's Straight Thinking podcast.

He's host of the Reflections blog, speaker at universities and churches worldwide, frequent guest

on radio programs such as the Frank Sontag Show, Issues Etc., and Stand to

Reason.

He's an adjunct professor at Biola University, member of the Evangelical Philosophical Society and

the Evangelical Theological Society and the International Society of Christian Apologetics.

And today we are discussing the very controversial book, The Cult of the Virgin, Catholic

Mariology and the Apparitions of Mary.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron, Kenneth R. Samples.

Hey Chris, it's good to be with you.

How are you?

I'm doing much better now that I hear you on the phone line.

I heard that we had some.

Kind of a connection problem there.

Yeah, well it's a pleasure to be on.

Your program once again.

Great, and this is a book that we are going to be discussing that

is not in print right now, although you can get it on Amazon.

But I am so delighted that I know that Solid Grand Christian Books still has a lot of interest in bringing this

book back into print, and I am hoping that that occurs very shortly in the near

future, God willing.

The title is The Cult of the Virgin, Catholic Mariology and the Apparitions of Mary, a very

controversial theme in a day and age where modern ecumenism seems

to have put the importance of theology on one of the lowest

rungs on the ladder of importance.

In some cases it's not even on the ladder.

But what was the catalyst for you writing The Cult of the Virgin, Catholic Mariology and the

Apparitions of Mary?

Yeah, very good.

Working at the time at the Christian Research

Institute, and working with and for Walter Martin, who was the original Bible Answer

Man, we got lots of questions about

theology, where we disagree, how significant are the

agreements and disagreements.

And Walter Martin debated a Catholic theologian, a Jesuit scholar named Mitchell

Pacwa, Fr. Mitchell Pacwa.

Yes, in fact I have arranged several debates with Fr. Pacwa back in

the 1990s and perhaps the early 2000s.

Yes, Fr. Pacwa has done

the Eternal Word Network, which

Walter and Mitchell Pacwa

certainly do, and a

phenomenon happening in a little city called Yugoslavia.

The country doesn't exist anymore, it's been divided up into two.

In that connection with Mitchell Pacwa and my interest in Catholicism,

Juliet Miller, who wrote the first part of The Cult of the Virgin, so from

an evangelical, biblical point of view, I wrote the second half of

the book that deals with the apparitions, and I thought to

kind of look into the phenomenon and to what Catholics have said about other

places like Guadalupe and Lourdes and Fatima,

and so I took a look, and boy

they're probably in their 40s and 50s now, but at the time they were called The

Cult of the Virgin.

And so I went there, and then

we decided to

put it into a book, and Baker Books at

the time was interested, and so I think in 1992

published, and as you say, it's presently out of print, but you can get copies on

Amazon .com, and I am going to be contacting my colleague Elliot Miller

maybe in pursuing a publisher, and mine

has...

Let me give our listeners

our email address if.

Anybody would like to join us on the air with a question for Ken Samples on

Marian apparitions and Mariology in general.

Our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n

-z -e -n at gmail .com, and please give us your first name, at least your city and state, and your country of residence.

If you live outside of the USA, if you're asking about a personal and private matter that

compels you to remain anonymous, perhaps for instance you disagree with your own

church on this issue, perhaps you're a Roman Catholic and you just don't want to identify yourself.

I understand that, and we will keep you anonymous if that is your desire, but if it's not a personal and private

matter, please at least give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence by emailing us a question at

chrisarnsen at gmail .com, chrisarnsen at gmail .com, c -h -r -i

-s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com.

Ken, what is an apparition?

Yeah, very good.

An apparent, the

word apparition comes from the Latin to make an appearance, and the

Catholics of course interpretate history.

You know, officially the Catholic

Church is very critical, and it tends to be very critical of looking at these kind of

phenomena.

They are not so much trying to say that they can

affirm the Virgin, a lot of times they take a very negative approach

in saying that there isn't anything, but

if you look at Medjugorje, if you look at

Fatima, that it is

an unusual phenomenon, some would

call it kind of a phenomenon, and of course

on the, I'm sure we can talk a bit about this later.

My big concern, Chris, with Catholic Mariology is

concerned with in

Mariology and in

particular...

Yes, and of course one of the things that disturb Bible -believing

Protestants most of all in regard to this is that

although the Roman Catholic Church officially makes a distinction

between worship and veneration, and they even make a distinction as to how Mary is to be

venerated and how other saints are to be venerated, the Biblical Protestant looks at what is

said and being done in these acts of veneration, and they don't see a distinction at all

from those behaviors and worship.

When you are kneeling in front of something, when you are praying to something, and when you are singing

accolades to something, and you are giving that

thing or person powers that belong only to be God, or you're assuming

that those things, either those objects or those people, have powers that belong only to God,

that in a Protestant's mind, and I think very accurately, would be diagnosed as being.

An act of worship.

Would you agree with that?

Yeah, this is the challenge.

The Catholic terminology, Latria, would be worshipped, and so God alone is to receive.

Mary is to

receive hyper -duly devotion, and

none of these distinctions are found in Scripture per se,

and I think the concern you have raised is a legitimate concern.

Maybe Catholic theologians and Catholic philosophers can dice the difference

between duly, hyper -duly, and Latria, but untold

millions of people throughout the world, I think, unfortunately, Chris, actually

engage in idolatry, where they treat Mary as a

divine or semi -divine creature, and

I say that, have

areas where I common agreement, because they do,

but I think that you've raised an issue I largely have always been

concerned with, and that is that Mary is treated, the

category you put Mary in the camp, she seems more like Christ than she does,

like, merely a

political matter.

As a four -year -old,.

And I grew up attending Mass, and I was baptized as a Catholic, and grew up in the Catholic Church, and was

in Catholic parochial school from first to eighth grade, I was an altar boy,

and I do not have nightmarish memories of being Catholic.

I have a lot of fondness in my memories, but that has nothing to do with the

theology that I came to embrace by God's grace, and my eyes

being opened to what I believe, and what I think can certainly be proven from the scriptures,

is false, heretical teaching that the Church of Rome embraces.

In fact, the Church of Rome makes it clear, very clear, that officially in their dogma,

they have a different gospel than the Reformers and their heirs have, because of the Council of

Trent's anathemas, specifically on the issues of justification and so on.

Yeah, these are,.

You know, these are real issues.

I think that, I think they're affirmed

in the Nicene Creed, there's a big slice of Christianity there.

Certainly they affirm the Trinity, the deity of Christ, Christ's humanity.

These are critical elements that other groups like Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons and others

would deny.

But when we get to these powerful differences, and the differences that lie in the area of

authority, are we to,

or addition on level with

authority, you mentioned the doctrine of justification, are we justified by grace alone,

through faith alone, in Christ alone, or is it

through by

grace in works of loving obedience?

And then, of course, these area of Mary and the saints, our

colleagues and I, Elliot

Miller and I, wrote this book because we thought it was a good opportunity

to give a Protestant point of view and to be.

Responded to him, so print a while.

Yes, and how many apparitions do you know of

that have been, that the Roman Catholic Church has been confronted with?

I don't even know if you could number them all, but, and I'm sure there are different categories of them.

Kind of give

a,

should point

out,

Chris,

we need Orthodox to Mary,

but

some

of the

major

Marian

apparitions that

have the

Lord's apparition in

France

controversy, and it's true that the Catholic firm

and

accept

a

great deal.

And so which of the

apparitions have been dogmatically.

Accepted, if any, or officially accepted as being bona fide

appearances of the actual mother of Jesus?

By the Church of Rome, of course.

Yeah, I would say that that Lourdes and Fatima have been given a

higher state of validation than have some of the others.

And even the one in Medjugorje, the former Yugoslavia, that one is criticized by

the local bishop, who I

spoke somewhat sympathetic to it, but that's an unofficial kind of statement

that I've heard from various Catholic thinkers.

But, you know, the Catholic Church tends to be critical.

They have a lot to lose by backing something like this if it turns out to be

fraudulent, or it turns out to represent some kind of occult

theology, or something of that nature.

But Fatima and Lourdes have been given greater prestige and honor,

and rank higher in terms of evaluation.

Yes, and I have met and corresponded with

and personally know Roman Catholics of the more extreme

right wing of the Church, the more conservative, and those who are

also involved in the traditionalist Latin right movement, who

vehemently oppose the Medjugorje apparition.

They believe it is demonic, or perhaps some would believe it is just the

the rantings of charlatans, but some do believe it's demonic.

And one of the reasons that they are convinced it is not truly an apparition of the

mother of Jesus is because the apparition promotes the

poem of the man -god.

If you could explain something about that.

I had the opportunity

at the time, they were

late teens, maybe early 20s at the time.

I was also able to interview the priest there at St.

George's, the spiritual advisor to these young

people.

The local bishop, who I mentioned before, was quite critical of the

phenomena.

In one of my discussions with one of the so -called seers,

I had heard this story that by the

alleged to

the

occult.

And so I was a

book that that, of course, since of

the matter is that people have all kinds of strange experience

of humanity.

And some of these strange experiences are undoubtedly, you know,

hallucinations or imaginations or exaggerations.

But some of them can be of a real and some of those

energized by a counter experiences in

the world of religion and the occult.

It appears that one of the books that appears to have been recommended by the

apparition was poem of the man -god.

If that is the case, that is another very

maybe we're dealing with a demonic counter.

And again, it's you being raised Catholic

myself as well.

You know, we are raised in kind of

kind of a state

or to doubt or, you know, to raise,

you know, but yeah, this

scored a lot of red flags for me.

And I have been around enough

doesn't

talk about discernment for any small reason.

This is a very critical area.

And so that was something that I discussed in the book

than being what something like a

spiritual.

And we do have a listener in Kinross, Scotland, Murray.

And I'm looking for Murray.

I just had Murray's question in front of me.

Oh, here it is.

What exactly is the Roman Catholic view regarding Mary repeatedly appearing on

earth, supposedly, do they consider that she enters, leaves and

reenters heaven repeatedly?

Whereas Jesus does not.

Do they claim omnipresence for her?

If she appears here on earth, what is her precise heavenly state at that time?

Don't they claim for her the title of queen of heaven?

I'm just wondering how they reason it all out.

So that is Murray in Kinross, Scotland.

Yeah, that's a those are those are a series of very good questions.

And I'm not sure I understand ways in which Catholics kind of

parse this kind of discussion.

But they that Mary can make appearances in the world

and that on certain cases she has apparently done

so.

The questions about omnipresence, the questions about how Mary relates to

other people in the world.

These are very important questions, because if Mary is a creature, if Mary is a

mere human being, then she doesn't have divine attributes.

And so some of these areas are kind of blended, and I

have questions about them myself.

And so the reasons to raise questions about how

Mary can relate to Mary, and how does Catholic theology treat her, and is

there a concern of giving her qualities and characteristics that seem more like her son?

I mean, let me lay out a brief element here.

He parallels Christology.

Jesus is born without sin.

Mary's conceived without original sin.

Jesus lived a sinless life.

Mary remains sinless.

After Jesus' resurrection, he ascends into heaven.

Mary is assumed into heaven.

Jesus is the mediator, Mary the mediatrix, Christ the redeemer.

For some in Catholic theology, Mary is the co -redemptrix, Jesus is the king,

Mary is the queen.

Jesus is the new Adam, Mary is the new Eve.

These are things that make me think again that the categories given to Mary

appear to be more Christological than merely human, and that

gives me...

Yes, we're going to go to a break right now.

By the way,.

Thank you Murray and Ken Ross Scotland for your excellent questions.

Keep listening to Iron Sharpens Iron and keep spreading the word about it in Scotland and

the UK and beyond.

We're going to be right back.

If anybody else would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail

.com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Don't go away, we'll be right back with Ken's samples and more on the cult of the

Virgin.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arns, and if you just tuned us in, our guest for the full two hours today is Kenneth R.

Samples.

Many of you recognize his name from years ago when he was a co -host on the Bible Answer Man

radio program.

Well today he is the current Senior Research Scholar at Reasons to Believe.

We are talking about a book that he co -authored with Elliot Miller, The Cult of the Virgin,

Catholic Mariology and the Apparitions of Mary.

And we are also delighted that this book, although currently out of print, may be, God willing, coming

back into print soon through Solid Ground Christian Books, because I know that the folks there, and in

particular Mike Gaydosch, the founder of Solid Ground Christian Books, a dear friend of mine going back to

the 1980s, he is very excited and enthusiastic to bring this book

back into print if all goes well with getting the necessary permissions

to get this book into the hands of a new publisher.

But if you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

And before I return to our discussion, Ken, I think it would be helpful

for some of our listeners who are totally ignorant about the level of

devotion that Roman Catholics, that many Roman Catholics, give to Mary.

I was actually surprised recently when I had a debate that I organized right here

in Carlisle, Pennsylvania between two friends of mine, my friend Dr. Tony

Costa, who is professor of apologetics at Toronto Baptist Seminary, debated my other friend,

Robert St. Genes, who is a Roman Catholic apologist and the founder of Catholic Apologetics

International.

They debated on the theme, Mary, sinless queen of heaven or

sinner saved by grace.

And when I was having lunch with some folks who were

evangelical Christians and had been for decades, some I think even were Christians

since their childhood, and I was absolutely taken aback that they knew very

little about the excesses of Marian devotion within the

Roman Catholic Church, and were shocked when I was being more specific with detail.

But here is something that is not written by a quack that

the Roman Catholics would denounce as being a nut or somebody who not to be trusted,

somebody that should be avoided at all costs or anything like that, even remotely close to that.

This is a citation that I'm about to provide

from Alphonsus Liguori, St. Alphonsus Liguori, who was canonized as a

Roman Catholic saint, and he lived in the 18th century.

And this is a pretty startling

description of the level of Marian devotion that Alphonsus Liguori

demonstrated, that many Catholics today repeat not only in their own

devotional life, but even have reprinted in their own books scholars who

are considered to be praiseworthy men of renown in the Catholic Church that

are to be taken seriously and listened to, have very favorably

reprinted this prayer by Alphonsus Liguori.

And this is how he says it, O mother of perpetual help, thou

art the dispenser of all the gifts which God grants to us miserable sinners,

and for this end he has made thee so powerful, so rich, and so

bountiful, in order that thou mayest help us in our misery.

Thou art the advocate of the most wretched and abandoned sinners who have recourse

to thee.

Come to my aid, dearest mother, for I recommend myself to thee.

In thy hands I place my eternal salvation, and to

thee I do entrust my soul.

Count me among thy most devoted servants, take me under thy

protection, and it is enough for me.

For if thou wilt protect me, dear mother, I fear nothing, not

from my sins, because thou wilt obtain for me the pardon of

them, nor from the devils, because thou art more powerful than all hell

together, nor even from Jesus, my judge himself,

because by one prayer from thee he will be appeased.

But one thing I fear, that in the hour of temptation I may neglect to call upon thee,

and thus perish miserably.

Obtain for me then, O mother of perpetual health, the pardon of my

sins, love for Jesus, final perseverance, and the grace to have recourse to thee

always.".

Now that is utterly, breathtakingly, astonishingly heretical, and I'm sure you would agree

with that,.

Brother.

Yeah, I mean,

these are the kind

of commonality between Catholics, and you know,

I have in my comparison,

but you know, it is over -the -top statements like this that raise

concerns among Protestants.

How are we to think about Mary?

Is she more like Christ, or more like.

And what is the need to go to Mary

if Christ is our unique Savior?

These are the kind of foundational questions, because again, we do

live at a time, I think, where Catholics and Protestants are carrying on more dialogue than

maybe they were 50 years ago, 100 years ago, certainly a lot more than they were

hundreds of years ago at the time of the Reformation.

But these are questions.

How can common ground with Roman

Catholics when statements are made about Mary that seem to place her more in a

Christological framework?

So yeah, these are some of these, and as you have suggested,

Chris, these are some of the practical difficulties.

I mean, it's one thing for us to debate doctrinal and theological and quote the Latin

and make distinctions.

It's another thing for a Catholic to

regard Mary and relate to Mary in a way that you and I as Protestants would only

relate to Christ.

So yeah, there's common ground between Catholics and Protestants, but

theologically conservative Catholics as well.

But this is one of the major areas of difference, and again, I

think it's played out in a practical sense, and I'll just say it.

I think millions of people in the world, maybe they're not following, but

they,

and that's, in fact,

I think before Francis has even made

statements, even though he has a very strong Marian devotion like all Catholic theologians do,

has made statements that there are times where Catholic Mariology has gotten,

yeah, you're exactly right.

Some of the statements made in that writing or that presentation

in the in the camp of Christ, and that would

be a thing.

In fact, years ago,.

It was probably in the 1990s, the early 1990s, when Dr. James R.

White had one of his very first debates with Jerry Manateeks, who,

although is out of favor with mainstream Catholicism today, because he is what is known as a

sativacantist, he is in a sect of Catholics that do not believe

that they have had a genuine Pope since the dawn of Vatican II,

which puts him out of the mainstream of even conservative Catholicism.

But at the time he debated Dr. White in the early 1990s,

he was in very good standing with the Catholic Church and was the most highly

recommended apologist by Catholic Answers, a very mainstream conservative Catholic

apologetics organization.

And during the debate, when Dr. White read that prayer

by Alphonsus Liguori, Jerry Manateeks said in response, and it is

my hope that one day you can pray that prayer with me, Mr. White.

Wow.

So this is like, I have to repeat, some people will scoff and say, oh, come on, you could find

all kinds of nut jobs saying things who are evangelical, let alone nut jobs

who are Catholics saying all kinds of outlandish, outrageous, and heretical things.

But the difference is, this is a man, Alphonsus Liguori, who was canonized as a saint, who Catholics

pray to, and who many Catholic

conservative Orthodox in the realm of Roman Catholicism, that is, not

Eastern Orthodox, but those who are considered theologically Orthodox and doctrinally Orthodox

within the Roman Catholic Church have very favorably quoted that

prayer and reprinted.

It in their own writings, as I said.

And Chris, I think in a practical sense, I was giving a talk at my own church, and

I mentioned that I've always been rather reluctant

about Mary, maybe

one of the other followers of Jesus, and I think the reluctance kind of comes

from the over -the -top statements that are made, the exaggerated and even

heretic...Mary was

an extraordinary individual, the

son of God.

This was

her life, and she was a deep follower of her son.

But again, I think that

lots of us, you

know, who tries to be...it's hard not to think

of these titles, and you hear prayers like the ones that you've read, and so,

you know, that's as important.

So also, these areas of difference, they

have to be looked at very carefully and very critically.

They're

so

relevant.

Think

that of

another...be honest, and you've got to look at the differences

and weigh them.

Yes, well, I think that if you are going to build and maintain

valuable, meaningful friendships with people of other religions, you cannot sweep your

differences under the rug.

I'm not saying that you are to use your differences as a battering ram or an axe

that you swing at them.

I believe that, though, you cannot overlook these things, just as if you had a close

friend who you loved dearly, who had a serious eating disorder or an addiction

or something that they were doing that was very detrimental, if not deadly, to their physical

health.

There is no reason on earth why something that you would believe is spiritually dangerous should be a

topic to be avoided.

I mean, if anything, that should be among the first and foremost things that you would have

at least a time dedicated to

discuss these things.

I'm not saying that you have to non -stop, perpetually bring these things up at Thanksgiving dinners and so on,

but for us to...

As the book of Proverbs says,

that faithful are the wounds of a friend, but deceitful are the

kisses of an enemy.

And I think that that is something that has really become a

motto of mine when I do these debates, because the

modern day that we live in, the

ecumenism has become so rampant and so dismissal of

theology and doctrine that the

meaning of Proverbs 27 and 6 has been just totally

been thrown out the window.

I mean, I think that these are truths that should be echoing in our hearts whenever we have a

conversation with somebody of a different religion that we love.

But now, how does the Catholic Church decide, going

back to our discussion on apparitions, which is our main theme today, because that is what you wrote about in the book,

The Cult of the Virgin.

What does the Catholic Church have to say about these appearances when they are notified about them, and

how do they decide what is an authentic apparition?

In fact, I am going to let you answer that when we return from our next break, because we...

I don't want to cut you off in mid -sentence, and we got a break coming up in two minutes, so I'm just going to take that

break early so that you will be able to answer it without interruption.

Very good.

And if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own for Ken Samples on the

apparitions of Mary or any question at all regarding Mariology, our email address is

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Welcome back, this is Chris Arns,.

And if you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours, with just about an hour to go, is Kenneth

R. Samples, philosopher, theologian, former senior research consultant and correspondence editor

at the Christian Research Institute, which is known as CRI, former co -host of the Bible Answer Man radio

broadcast, current senior research scholar at Reasons to Believe, author of

Christian Endgame, Seven Truths that Changed the World, A World of Difference, Without a Doubt,

and more.

He's the leader of Reason to Believe's Straight Thinking podcast, he's the host of the

Reflections blog, a speaker at universities and churches worldwide, frequent guest on radio programs

such as the Frank Sontag Show, Issues, etc., and Stand to Reason, adjunct professor at Biola

University, member of the Evangelical Philosophical Society, the Evangelical Theological Society, and the

International Society of Christian Apologetics.

We are discussing his book, The Cult of the Virgin, Catholic Mariology and the Apparitions of Mary.

If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson

at gmail .com.

And by the way, some of you may be wondering why my co -host, the Reverend Buzz Taylor, is not with me today.

Well that is because Pennsylvania, at least the area that the Reverend Buzz Taylor and I

live in, among other places in the Northeast, was hit by a very serious blizzard

yesterday.

In fact, it is still snowing outside, and Reverend Buzz Taylor

would have to be a mountain climber right now to actually get out of his house and to get over here to the studio.

So hopefully the snow will be cleared away by tomorrow, and at least enough of it where

we can get the Reverend Buzz in here to join us on another program.

I also want to remind Iron Sharpens Iron listeners that we are still in urgent need of new

benefactors and sponsors.

Those of you who have listened to my program since 2006 know that it is a very rare

occasion that Iron Sharpens Iron makes public appeals for donations or for

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At least that was the common practice for many years

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But anyway, we are returning to our discussion now with Ken Samples, which is the Cult of

the Virgin, Catholic Mariology, and the Apparitions of Mary.

And Ken, I think that I also would like to assert here that

I do not believe all Catholics are damned.

People automatically assume that if you have serious criticisms over

their theology that automatically means you believe that each and every person in that religious

system is damned.

No, I don't believe that.

I believe that many Roman Catholics will be there in heaven

with me, in spite of their theology, not because of it.

And there are many Roman Catholics, certainly a minority, but there are many, I'm sure,

globally, and of course throughout the centuries there have been many who did not

believe in the Roman Catholic dogmatized gospel as defined at the

Council of Trent.

There are many Catholics who either through naivete or ignorance of what their own

church teaches about the gospel and actually believe the true biblical gospel, or there are those who sometimes

remain in the Catholic Church and think that they're going to be a modern

-day Martin Luther or something.

And of course you do have Catholics that were martyred by the Catholic Church, who never departed from

that church, but who believed in biblical truths that led them to their deaths.

But I know that you are in some realm of agreement.

With me on that little speech there, Ken.

I am, and I think it's important at one of

the areas of great dispute.

There's a quote from John Calvin, and it's hard to get more Calvinist than Calvin.

Calvin, he said, while the Church was in his mind a false, the Catholic

Church, there were many true Christians within its ranks.

And that has been my experience.

I have known Catholics that I believe are authentically Christian.

I have to agree with you, sometimes it's more in spite of what the Church teaches than because of what the Church teaches.

But I don't treat Catholics for the Mormons.

But having said that, that does

show

good people on all sides, it can.

Chris, I think that's what I would call the golden rule of apologetics.

You try to treat other people's views the way you want yours treated, namely,

and I think that's very appropriate when it comes to this topic.

Yes, and I am saddened by the fact, just to re -quote Proverbs 27 and

6, that faithful are the wounds of a friend, but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful.

There are many people blowing kisses at each other today who are more concerned over

the feelings of their friends and family members, or perhaps even more

concerned about what they can get out of those people than they are over their never -dying souls.

And if you're going to be a faithful friend, you will wound them on occasion

with the truth that sometimes wounds a person.

And by the way, not only do I view Roman Catholics as a mission field, I view a great

portion of modern -day evangelicalism just as much as a mission field.

There are many evangelicals that have very bizarre and unbiblical concepts of salvation,

heretical understandings of the gospel and of theology, and I will be the

first to admit that not only will there be many modern evangelicals

absent from heaven, but there is no guarantee you're going to heaven even if you are a Calvinist or Baptist if you are

just a false professor.

So I mean there are false professors all over the place.

Very good.

Well going back to our subject at hand, in fact I wanted to return to the question I

asked before the station break, and by the way I hope that it doesn't annoy our listeners too much

that we have an elongated station break in the middle of the two hours of our program.

That is because Grace Life Radio in Lake City, Florida who airs our program

every day as a rerun in morning drive time and in the evening they require our show

comes to them in two 54 -minute segments.

So that's why we have to break up the show with a very elongated gap between with

commercials.

But before the break I had asked you how does the

Roman Catholic Church decide what is an authentic apparition?

Because there are many apparitions that I am assuming even

the more scholarly or respected Catholic theologian or cleric

is going to denounce or even laugh at.

I mean there are some, I even visited the site of a Catholic

apparition or a Marian apparition that was in Clearwater, Florida, I don't know if it still

exists, but there was an office building that had a

sprinkler system that was spraying water perpetually for an elongated period of time

on a window or a series of window panes that had

sun protection screen on them or something.

There was some kind of a film on the windows to protect or prevent sunlight to

come into the office buildings, the offices, and the water caused a

weird multi -colored stain that

some Catholics adopted as an apparition of Mary and some Catholics actually purchased the

building and set up a little museum where they had people coming in where they could buy

Catholic trinkets and so on and come see the apparition of Mary.

And it's interesting how some of these apparitions that are allegedly of Mary, they could easily also be the angel of

death or any cloaked hooded figure because you can't really tell that it's even

a female apparition or you can't even tell it's supposed to look like

a female apparition or Mary herself on many occasions.

But if you could comment about that.

I remember reading that story, and you know, in

my book, Chapter 10, I have a

section looking at

Marian apparitions.

Again, an appearance, a reality of a figure in the world.

And obviously they have to, the diocese of the

local church has to decide whether there's sufficient reason to investigate a particular claim.

And you're right.

The vast majority of claims go uninvestigated.

If they decide, like in the case of Medjugorje, it usually

begins with the local bishop.

If it's an alleged appearance of Mary, it might

involve a commission.

You may have theologians, psychologists, trained professional people involved.

I know in the case of Medjugorje, the young people had gone through quite a number of

tassel tests, even while they were allegedly having

an apparition.

So there was sometimes an evaluation.

And obviously the central evaluation here is, is this,

they may

ask, is there any kind of healings or

miracles that have

been healed in association with the alleged apparition?

So the question is, is it in accord with Catholic teaching?

Obviously, though, you're not even an apparition in terms of

assenting to Catholic belief.

These are

not in the area

of Mariology.

He has five, might be an authentic apparition.

One, does it manifest the hidden presence of God?

Two, does it renew community life?

Three, does it lead to the conversion of hearts?

Four, does it promote the awakening and stimulation of faith and dynamism

in the church?

Out of that evaluation come four irrelevant

evaluations.

The first one would be that it contradicts Catholic teaching, and therefore it would be

at odds with the

evaluation majority of

the say -nothing

affiliation.

And again, this

would, though it is a

negative evaluation, would be given

a positive affirmation of the church, or to put it in Catholic terms, quote, worthy of

pious belief, unquote.

Obviously, three and four.

And there are very few apparitions,

and obviously they have a lot

to lose, contrary to their own teaching.

So you don't have to believe in any of the apparitions, Lourdes, Fatima, Guadalupe,

Medjugorje.

You don't have to believe any of them to be a good Catholic.

But those that are seen as consistent

or in a very positive

light.

And again, the vast majority, they say nothing about.

Now, is it acceptable within the Church of Rome to be

a Catholic and denounce such apparitions that have

been welcomed by the hierarchy of Rome and the

papacy, like Lourdes, like Fatima?

Can you as a Catholic say, no, I disagree with all due respect, I think that these are

evil, satanic manifestations, or what have you?

Or must you just remain silent and tolerate the veneration that is going on

by your fellow Catholics?

That's a very good question.

I think my answer would be that these are private beliefs in

any of the apparitions, but there are some of the

apparitions that have been given a very high

evaluation of, and maybe even

worthy of, pious belief.

I think if you were to downgrade those apparitions in the highest

light, you may have problems.

But unofficially, you

don't know

what would be more subjective, these more

private types.

Now, what about in the opposite end of the spectrum?

Those who are rejecting or ignoring the warnings

of the Church, or perhaps a local bishop,

and are pursuing the veneration of these apparitions

anyway?

For instance, I know that even Magigoria, as we

mentioned on our last interview, that has been denounced by the local

bishop there in the area.

But that one is probably more still open for

personal interpretation.

But there are others, like for instance, there is a a cult in Texas that I think

that even many, if not most, or all Catholic clerics denounce as a false

apparition of Mary that seems to be revisiting this area in Texas.

A cult has risen out of it, a Catholic cult.

I don't know if you're familiar with what I'm talking about.

National Geographic actually did a documentary on it.

I think they call it the cult of Mary,.

Or something like that.

I'm really glad you raised this question.

You know, again, the question of what about these apparitions that

are seen as, you know,

and again, I would say, and I met

the bishop in Magigoria, and you're right, he was adamantly against it.

He thought that this was false.

A lot of things, really.

So while

sometimes I'm told,

at least initially, sympathetic to the idea, again, I can't confirm that

personally, but I know the bishop.

And it raises this question in my mind, Chris, and I think it's a

really important one.

What I really wish is that, but

what actually,

we've gone overboard,

but some of us have gone even

virtual louse.

I think at times, I mean, this is my impression, I have no wish to misrepresent,

but to be anti

-Catholic, it seems at times that when it comes to Marian issues of apparitions,

or even of just general devotion,

there aren't enough critiques and evaluations.

And again, I think it would be right for the Pope to just come out and say, you know what,

millions of people throughout the world worship Mary, and that's wrong, and that's inconsistent with our teaching,

and our local bishops and our priests seem,

and I think that when it comes to Mariology, there are very

few checks and balances in a practical way.

And so I think there's kind of a belief,

an easy believism, that anything that smacks of a Marian apparition may be authentic.

And I think it is much more deliberate, much more,

you know, maybe

it's the sun

passing...

And of course it'd be even nicer if the popes and the bishops and the cardinals and the priests converted to

biblical Christianity.

And by the way...

That's a bigger prayer.

Yes.

And by the way, I misspoke.

A listener in New York, CJ from Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York,

brought me to the attention of the National Geographic website that featured the program The

Cult of Mary.

It's on their Explorer program.

The Cult of Mary, the cult was not in Texas, or is not in Texas, it's in

Alabama.

So if you go to the National Geographic website and look up The Cult of Mary,

you'll be able to find the documentary on this specific group that even many, if not

most, Catholic clerics are denouncing.

We do have a listener in Slovenia, Joe in Slovenia, and I'm going to ask Joe's

question to you, and then you can answer it when we return from the break.

This will give you some more time to think about it, since I don't want to interrupt you while you're answering his

question.

But Joe in Slovenia says, Dear Brother Chris, Slovenia is steeped in Roman Catholicism,

and he provides a link to the Mary pilgrimage route in Slovenia.

What are the most important things to do and not to do in talking with someone who is practicing this

idolatrous activity?

How do we go about engaging in apologetics with the run -of -the -mill Roman Catholic?

Thanks for helping us present true biblical Christianity to those caught in Mariology.

So you can answer that question when we return from our final break, Ken.

Very good.

And if anybody else would like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com, and we will get to as many of you as we can before we run out of time.

So those who are already waiting, please continue to be patient, and we'll be back with you as soon as possible.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back, God willing, after these messages.

Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said, Give yourself unto reading.

The man who never reads will never be read.

He who never quotes will never be quoted.

He who will not use the thoughts of other men's.

Brains proves that he has no brains of his own.

You need to read.

Solid Ground Christian Books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the Prince of Preachers to heart.

The mission of Solid Ground Christian Books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to Christians in the present and

future, and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world.

Since its beginning in 2001, Solid Ground has been committed to publish God -centered, Christ -exalting

books for all ages.

We invite you to go treasure hunting at solid -ground -books .com.

That's solid -ground -books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past

or present you can unearth from Solid Ground.

Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor.

Of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Every day at thousands of community centers, high schools, middle schools, juvenile institutions,

coffee shops, and local hangouts, Long Island Youth for Christ staff and volunteers meet with young people

who need Jesus.

We are rural and urban and we are always about the message of Jesus.

Our mission is to have a noticeable spiritual impact on Long Island, New York by engaging young people in the lifelong

journey of following Christ.

Long Island Youth for Christ has been a stalwart bedrock ministry since 1959.

We have a world -class staff and a proven track record of bringing consistent love and encouragement

to youths in need all over the country and around the world.

Help honor our history by becoming a part of our future.

Volunteer, donate, pray, or all of the above.

For details, call Long Island Youth for Christ at 631 -385

-8333.

That's 631 -385 -8333.

Or visit liyfc .org.

That's liyfc .org.

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Needs a pastor.

Welcome back.

This is Chris Arns, and if you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours with about 25 minutes to go

is Ken Samples.

We are discussing his book, The Cult of the Virgin.

And before the break, Ken, as you know, I was reading a question from our listener in Slovenia, Joe,

and he asked, what are the most important things to do and not to do in talking with someone who is practicing this

idolatrous activity, and how do we go about engaging in apologetics with the run -of -the -mill

Roman Catholic?

Joe, that's a great question.

I'm.

Really glad you asked it, dear to my heart.

Catholic relatives.

I'm going to recommend four things.

The first thing I would do is I would explain to my Catholic friend, my Catholic relative, that

apparitions are private and subjective, and even the Catholic Church doesn't require you

to believe them.

So I want to get them evaluating the idea that these are subjective experiences and

therefore have to be looked at carefully.

The second thing that I would say to a Catholic is I would say, look, the idea

of Catholic Mariology and all the titles that she has and all the honors that she's given, as

well as apparitions, that this really is both a Catholic and Orthodox phenomenon.

There's a whole branch of Christendom called Protestantism that doesn't accept this

form of devotion.

So you need to realize that you want to hopefully get all sides

of the issue and not just hear one side of the issue.

The third point, and here is where I'm going to begin taking into Scripture, I'm going to say, look,

I believe in the Bible's inspiration.

You even believe in its authority.

And when we go through the Bible, the Bible has a lot to say about the importance of discernment

and reflection and being careful extensively about

counterfeit Gospels.

So the quote

John Calvin, that the human mind is like an idolatry factory.

It's ready to run away with all kinds of false ideas.

So I want to convey to them that it's critical to be discerning and to be reflective, and we

honor God when we're careful and we're thoughtful.

Joe, the fourth point would that I think

Mariology, Christology, and that

devotion to compromises, a unique

devotion to, and you know, I

remember in my late teens, early 20s, and there was

a, he was a charismatic, and he said,

Ken, I know, I see

you coming to Mass.

Is he really your Savior?

That stunned me.

That really made me, myself, deep questions.

He was really asking, are you a

cultural Catholic context, or do you really know Jesus as

your Savior?

Vastly about theology.

For me, it led, and to embrace

a, but again, I think it's important to be, and

to ask, and you know, as Chris

Honey, that

disagree, and I

think if we were not, I

mean, we have to beat people over the head, and it certainly doesn't mean we misrepresent each other, but these are

real differences, and so that would be kind of my four -point advice, if you

will.

Excellent.

Don't you think something needs to be corrected in the thinking of Catholics?

What I routinely hear in defense of Catholic

alleged apparitions of Mary when they hear me

protesting against them and warning about them, is how could

this not be from God, and how could this not be Mary herself, if the apparition

is urging people to repent and follow her son Jesus?

Now, isn't that a very naive and gullible way of looking

at any messenger that claims to be promoting Jesus and his teachings?

I mean, you have Joseph Smith, who had apparitions of his own that he

claims to have seen in upstate New York, not of Mary, but you know, you

have all kinds of, you even have, as we were discussing, disagreements amongst

Catholics about the Marian apparitions, and some, even that bishop locally

in Medjugorje, believes that it is a demonic activity going on there.

So, if even Catholics can disagree with that, don't you think that more caution

should be put toward accepting things just because

they are, they appear to be supernatural manifestations of something that are

giving a positive message of Jesus, at least on the surface it seems to be giving a positive message of

Jesus?

Yeah, you, I think you raise a great, you raise a great issue.

You know, if you drink poison, it can make you terribly sick, it may even kill you.

There is, excuse me, there is spiritual poison.

There are false beliefs and false doctrines and false teachings that

can enslave people and drive you out.

I think when they talk about evaluating fruit, I think even the evaluation

that the Catholic Church does probably needs much more rigor, because,

you know, okay, yeah, this apparition wants people to follow,

and who do they say that Jesus is, and what did that Jesus,

you're right, we need a lot more evaluation.

And it goes back to a point I made earlier.

It often seems in the Catholic world that anything that, you know, gives honor,

there can be, there can also be false marries, just like there are.

I want to make one other point.

There was a book out, it came out a couple years ago,

on the Trinity, written by an evangelical theologian, Michael Reeves.

And in the book, Reeves was talking briefly about devotion to the Virgin,

kind of in a historical theological context.

This book is called Delighting in the Trinity.

Anyway, Michael Reeves, that in church history, there was

concern in

the Son, because thought was,

well, we need somebody to go on

our behalf, maybe it'd be better if we because

the feminine has the compassion, so maybe we can go to Mary to get to Jesus.

Well, I think a lot of people think that way, whether that is the way Catholic

theology came in terms of Mariology or not.

Chris, there are a lot of people who just don't think that they can come to Jesus.

They don't think that they can come to the Trinity, because this God is stern, and they are

so sinful that they need somebody to plead.

That's why I say maybe a good bit of Catholic Mariology is

a misunderstanding of Christian theology, that

Jesus Christ came into the world to save us, that his death is a way of forgiving our

sins, that we can come to him, and we can call out to him.

And I think there are times where, again, we want to draw people back

into, hopefully, a more Christocentric focus, a more Trinitarian focus.

Maybe some of the extremes of Catholic Mariology are the result of maybe not

understanding the genuine grace of God that is offered to us in the life, death, and

resurrection of Jesus.

Amen.

And the idea that just because

something is uplifting Jesus, at least that appears to be, is something

that should not only be swallowed wholesale by Catholics, but Evangelicals from

their television screens, and their computer screens, and their radio speakers

are hearing all kinds of false Jesuses and false Gospels

being presented.

So it's not just the Roman Catholic that needs to be leery of

just accepting something that promotes Jesus.

It's all of humanity, because there are false Christs, just as there are false Marys,

and as I have repeated several times, even the Catholic Church has repeatedly

said there are false Marys that appear in dubious

apparitions.

Yeah, this is, you're right.

I mean,.

We live at a time, the truth of the matter, Christian

radio are not

the learned, sound Christian who come to believe

the great truth, and so there

are lots of statements that are

common.

There are problems in

many ways, and again, I get back to talks about being discerning, being

reflective, being careful.

Why?

Because these issues are way too important.

Your salvation is way too important, and just as you

can endanger your life, you can

imbibe, and they can trap,

and so these are issues that apply

also to the Evangelical Protestant world,.

Where too often we are fascist.

Tyler in Mastic Beach, Long Island, New York, says, is

the problem with the Roman Catholic Church not only the Gospel, but also

the doctrine of Scripture alone?

And obviously he means the rejection of the doctrine of Sola Scriptura, or Scripture alone.

I think that that's what all of these discussions boil down to, don't they?

I think so.

You know, I've done a few debates myself, I've been involved in some dialogues with Catholic apologists,

with Catholic theologians.

A number of years ago I did debate, we debated the

authority of Scripture.

Is it Scripture alone, or is it Scripture and Catholic tradition?

And I think that, you know, that issue,

and I would say, too, something about Scripture.

It is alive, inspired, in a

way that can't be duplicated, it can't be replicated in tradition, as

valuable as I see tradition is at times.

There is some power, a force, in Scripture that can't be duplicated

even in church councils.

And I would also, you know, make the point here that

this really is an ultimate question.

Chris, I would not only say the fundamental issue of Christianity is a question of authority, but

having taught courses in world's religions, it's almost always in religion a

question of authority.

So our views of justification, our views of Mary, our views of various other issues,

real question of where is the ultimate Christian authority, and how do we understand the

biblical.

Text?

R .J. in White Plains, New York, wants to know how to answer Catholics who insist

that the apparitions of Mary they have heard about and embraced

are true because of the miraculous aspect, such as thousands of seeing the

dancing of the sun, and so on.

Very good.

Question.

In my book, The Cult of the Virgin, the latter part of the book deals with apparitions, and I raise

the question, you know, Jesus' ministry seems to me, when He performed the

miraculous, very different than the apparitions of Mary.

You know, Jesus healed the lepers.

Jesus healed people who were blind.

Jesus touched and restored people's limbs.

When it comes to apparitions, a lot of times the miracles are, you know, a dancing

sun, or, you know, things turning into silver and gold.

Now, I know there are claimed apparitions connected with lords that involve,

you know, alleged miracles, but oftentimes these so -called

supernatural ideas, they seem flimsy.

They don't really seem like what I would expect from the healing

ministry.

Frankly, they.

Seem counterfeit.

R .J.

Yes.

Well, even the devil has masqueraded as an angel

of light, still does masquerade as an angel of light, and he has counterfeit

miracles.

I mean, the Bible warns that there will be counterfeit miracles.

So, well, it's interesting that Catholics would give something the seal of approval because of something

miraculous, when even organizations and religious groups that

they oppose report miracles.

I mean, you can go from the Word of Faith Pentecostal movements even to Eastern

religions that report miracles that have convinced

many, you know, give a seal of approval from God or from

deity, from their deity, that these things are genuine.

And I think that we should never forget the warning in Matthew

chapter 7, which is a very serious warning for

all of us, I believe.

And we have Jesus himself saying, not

everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my

Father who is in heaven.

Many will say to me on that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your

name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many

miracles?

Then I will tell them plainly, I never knew you away from me, you evildoers.

Now, Jesus doesn't say when they made these claims of the miraculous, no, he didn't.

He doesn't contradict them.

He didn't say that they didn't perform miracles.

He didn't say that they didn't drive out demons.

He didn't say that they didn't prophesy in his name.

But it's interesting that all of that paled into insignificance because they were not doing the will

of the Father who is in heaven.

Be like, what would evangelicalism be like if, you know, 1

Thessalonians 5 .21 was rigorously applied?

Test all things, hold on to that, which is good.

When it comes to things like subjective spiritual experiences,

apparitions, it all tested.

And, you know, I said to Father

Patquiston, who argues most vigorously for the unique

authority of Scripture.

And so, you know, there's something in Scripture, and

that's supreme authority.

And how do these apparitions affect Catholic piety, at least in your opinion?

It's a great question, and I, you know,

I'll tell you, Guadalupe, and you think about,

again, another reason to, you know, to look at these.

Go on the

web and look very carefully at the person, Mary Given.

How is she, you

know, what are those words?

And I think it's, my question is that these

apparitions have a life, and

that's another reason to test.

And in this day and age of pluralism, multiculturalism,

modern ecumenicalism or ecumenism, don't we have

to separate those things that

are hills that we must be willing to die on, and those things that are of

less importance?

Like, for instance, you and I, we have our differences.

You are a paedo -baptist.

You believe in infant baptism.

I'm a reformed baptist.

You are, from what I can recall, in fact, since you work for Reasons to Believe, I understand that you

are an old earth creationist, where I am a young earth creationist.

And there are things like that that genuine believers can disagree on, but there are certain

lines that when you cross them, there is no room for just

the live and let live attitude.

I mean, if you look at what happened to Nadab and Abihu in the Old Testament, for merely putting their own

mixture of ingredients in the incense bowls, the Lord

caused them to be consumed in flame and killed them for false worship.

Now, he isn't doing that today, but I don't think he views false worship any

differently.

I don't think he views it with less severity.

He's just being merciful in that way and being patient in this day and age, where

we don't see people spontaneously.

Bursting into flame all the time.

You raise what I consider an absolute, and

that is, you know, you don't want to

die on a hill that aren't as

others.

But I think it's

important that there is solid discussion in our churches, in our schools, about

what is essential.

Why is the doctrine of justification?

Why does Paul, in the book of

Galilee, and letting be accursed, I mean, these are

chilling things.

We want to look at them very carefully, and so you're right.

There are people who die on a hill I don't think they need to die on, but there are other people I think sometimes

compromise.

And that's not something you want to

do.

That you can be outside of.

These are very discerning things.

People should be very reflective.

And again, to make the point, we're critiquing primarily a Catholic

phenomenon in the last two hours, but there are many things in the evangelical world that are

sloppy, that are convoluted, you

know, and they go on and on

without...theologians to police their ranks about Mary.

It'd be good for evangelical Protestants to police their ranks when it comes to the health, wealth, and prosperity

gospel, and all kinds of other things that I think are deeply...

Well, Ken, I want to let our listeners know that if they want to purchase this book, The Cult of the Virgin,

Catholic Mariology and the Apparitions of Mary, right now the best place to go is Amazon because the

book is out of print.

We hope that you will be able to get it within the months ahead through solid

-ground -books .com.

Solid -ground -books .com, that's the website for solid -ground Christian books.

We hope that something develops soon with that new publication of this book.

I also wanted to quickly highly recommend two books, Mary, Another Redeemer,

with a question mark, that's a very important punctuation mark.

Mary, Another Redeemer?, by Dr. James R. White, and also his book, The Roman Catholic

Controversy, which you can get through AOMIN .org,

AOMIN .org.

And I know that your website, where you work at Reasons to Believe, that's Reasons

.org, Reasons .org.

Any other contact information you care to give?

If you go on Amazon and you type in The Cult of the Virgin, type in Ken Samples, because there's a couple books by

that title.

And on the Reasons .org, Thought Among Sages,

it's been great having the opportunity to be with you and your listeners.

Yes, and we have a number of other dates already scheduled for you to return, and I'm looking forward to that, on other books.

Thank you, Chris.

I want to thank everybody who listened today.

I want to thank especially those who took the time to write in questions for Ken Samples.

I look forward to your future questions for other guests that we

have on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

And I want you all to always remember, for the rest of your lives, that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you

are a sinner.