October 31, 2023 Show with William Shishko on “Christianity & Liberalism: Celebrating the 100th Anniverary”

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Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer

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George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend

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Jim Thorpe, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs, chapter 27, verse 17, tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Reformation day on this

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Tuesday, October 31st, 2023, and I can't think of a better day to spend the time with my very dear friend, old friend, in fact, one of my oldest

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Christian friends. I don't mean by his age when I say that. I'm speaking of the length of time that I've known this dear brother.

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He was one of my first Christian friends after becoming a born -again believer myself, and I first met him when he was a guest speaker at the invitation of my pastor at the time,

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Mike Gaydosh, of what was then Calvary Baptist Church of Amityville, Long Island, which later merged with First Baptist Church of Merrick to become

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Grace Reform Baptist Church of Long Island in Merrick, and I was so impressed and blessed and edified that evening.

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I remember hearing Pastor Bill preach that I made sure that I greeted him afterwards, and we that really began a friendship which has lasted decades.

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That was what it would have been the late 1980s when that happened. And Pastor Bill Shishko, my guest today, is pastor of the

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Haven, which is an Orthodox Presbyterian church congregation in Comac, Long Island, New York, and today we're going to be addressing

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Christianity and liberalism, celebrating the 100th anniversary of this classic work by J.

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Gresham Machen, and this is part one of a two -part discussion, and you might as well mark your calendars down for Wednesday, November 29th, 4 -6 p .m.

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Eastern Time for part two of my discussion with Pastor Bill, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Trump and Zion Radio, Pastor Bill Shishko.

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Well, my dear brother, Chris Arnson, how wonderful you introduced me by talking about how old

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I am. What a way to start. By the way, there's one thing for sure.

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The next time that God gives me the good providence to see you face -to -face again, we have to make sure that when we get our photograph taken together, there is not a glaring light behind us, because looking through my photo gallery on my phone, every photo of us together had to be altered somewhat because it was almost a black silhouette of both of us since there was light glowing behind us.

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We were always standing by a window or a bright lamp of some kind, but we'll have to make sure we do that.

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Well, let's start with having you describe for our listeners the

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Haven, which is, as I said in the introduction, a congregation within the

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Orthodox Presbyterian Church. Well, Chris, thanks. I'm so honored to be your guest, especially on Reformation Day here in 2023, but also the topic,

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I'm so excited about the topic as an Orthodox Presbyterian minister. Dr. Machen was the man that the

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Lord used for the founding of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church in 1936, and while as appreciative as I am of Westminster Seminary Press coming out with a 100th anniversary edition of Christianity and Liberalism, I must confess it rubs me the wrong way that what all of the accolades that they have in the book for Dr.

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Machen's book, not one of those accolades is from an OPC minister, which is a shame because the denomination that still kind of upholds as a denomination what

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Dr. Machen stood for. But I'm honored, Chris, after more years, actually, was it 40,

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I was stunned, 44 years in the ordained ministry and this month, but to be a pastor in a mission church in Suffolk County, 16

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Oak Lawn Drive in Comac, the Haven OPC. We'd love to have people visit with us when we have worship on Sunday at 10 a .m.,

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but I'm really more concerned to speak today about Christianity and Liberalism.

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Now just for the sake of getting our history correct here, how long were you the pastor at the

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Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Franklin Square, where you were pastoring when

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I first met you and where I had many occasion to visit you for different events in that fine congregation?

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Well, after I had pastored a church in South Carolina, it was also a mission church. They seemed to be the bookends of my ministerial life as a mission church work, but I was called to the

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Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Nassau County on Long Island in 1981 and served there until 2016 when

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I had been, my call was changed. I became what's called a regional home missionary and worked with a number of different churches in the metropolitan

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New York area, Southern Connecticut and Long Island. And then the committees that I was working with urged me in 2018 to start a mission work out in Suffolk County.

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That began as a Bible study in 2019. We ended up meeting at our facility in Bohemia for some time.

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And then the Lord wonderfully provided a facility for us, the former Cleft of the

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Rock Bible Church. Yes. 16 Oakland Drive. You were familiar with that. We moved in September 11th was our inaugural service in 2022.

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And so we've been in that location for a little more than a year. But yeah, it's been, it's been quite a ride here on Long Island.

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I tell people, not a lot of people are wanting to start mission churches on Long Island because it's so expensive and so hardened and it is a challenge,

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I will admit. But it's such a blessing to have that congregation and to see how the

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Lord is forming a body that really wants to be a faithful church in the midst of, to say the least, a very unfaithful generation.

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Well, if anybody wants to find out more information about The Haven in Comack, Long Island, the church where my dear brother and guest today is pastor, the website is thehavenli, standing for longisland .com.

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And for any of my listeners on Long Island who are not currently already aware of this, there are three

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Orthodox Presbyterian church congregations on Long Island. The church in Franklin Square still exists as well as the church in Bohemia and the church in Comack where my guest serves as pastor.

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And we will, God willing, repeat that information later on in the program.

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Well, why don't you give our listeners some background to this classic work, timeless work,

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Christianity and Liberalism by J. Gresham Machen. And the thing that just struck me before we went on the air is,

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I wonder what J. Gresham Machen would call the so -called progressive left -leaning church today, because even though the liberalism of his day was heretical and damning, today it is nightmarishly satanic.

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So I don't know how he would categorize it. Well, you've given an excellent introduction to the

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November 29th program, because we just want to introduce things to whet people's appetite.

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But yeah, it's reading Dr. Machen's Christianity and Liberalism and understanding some of what

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I'm going to be covering in this program. You will see a lot of the seeds, the same seeds of liberalism coming in different ways in the church today.

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But I'd rather to deal with that at the November 29th program. Chris, it's okay.

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Let me just take a moment to talk about the importance of biographies.

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We're talking about a man. We're talking about a man that many of your hearers have never heard of.

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What his biography clearly is, it kind of fleshes out in many ways.

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What he's written, or what he's written fleshes out what his life stood for. But it brings us to the whole issue of biographies, and I want to urge your listeners to be readers of good

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Christian biographies, Hebrews 13, 7 and 8.

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Remember, keep remembering your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God.

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So he's not talking about civil leaders. He's talking about pastors or ministers or elders.

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And it's interesting, those who spoke to you the word of God, it's past tense, apparently they are no longer on scene.

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They had gone to glory, but they were to be remembered. And then it says, consider, examine carefully the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith.

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That's one of the great reasons for reading biographies of godly men and women.

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What is the outcome of their life? And you learn lessons for following the

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Lord in our day. And there's two additional reasons, not only the biblical warrant for this, but we need a sense of perspective in our culture.

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It's easy to think that in our rapidly changing culture, with all forms of iniquity that are growing up, that we're alone historically, and we are not.

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Good biographies will give you a perspective on your culture that you're not alone, especially, for example,

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St. Augustine, who was probably the most preeminent of the post -apostolic church fathers.

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Augustine wrote the City of God, his classic work, when Rome was decaying, as our culture is decaying, and learning how this godly man sought to understand his culture and relate to it.

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Why that helps us so much. The other is, and I'm fascinated with this, the now abundance of popular biographies of Christian leaders.

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You advertise Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, for which

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I'm very appreciative. Your listeners can just, they can contact Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service and say, can you recommend some biographies for me, and they can help them.

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Just some examples, I mentioned Augustine, who was a 5th century church father. His confessions are his own autobiography, so to speak.

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There's a lot of popular biographies of him that are helpful. If you move toward the

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Reformation time, John Huss and William Tyndall and John Wycliffe, especially

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Tyndall and Wycliffe, their passion for getting the Word of God out to people, that will give you passion as you read of that.

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Reformation Day, Martin Luther, I still think the unrivaled biography of Luther by Roland Bainton, Here I Stand, or biographies of John Calvin or John Knox.

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In the political arena, John Knox was a Scottish reformer, has a lot to say about what we're dealing with in our culture.

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And then if you go to the 18th century, the 1700s, which was the flowering of evangelical leaders,

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John Wesley, George Whitefield, Jonathan Edwards, and so many others. These books will give you a passion for evangelism.

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And if you read, say, J .C. Ryles, great evangelical leaders of the 18th century, reading his first chapter about the world in which these men ministered to, it's so much like our own world.

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And then more modern figures, oh, and Missions, I don't want to miss Missions because we need more of a

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Missions passion. Biographies of William Carey, Hudson Taylor, John G.

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Payton, who was a missionary to the New Hebrides, which is our islands in the

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Pacific. That book by John G. Payton fired an evangelistic zeal in people, and it still does.

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And then more modern figures, I still put Spurgeon in that, maybe I'm looking how old

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I am, I don't know, Spurgeon lived in the 19th century. But in so many ways, he was a modern figure as a pastor and dealing with the

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Industrial Revolution and so on. Biographies of Martyn Lloyd -Jones and John R.

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Stott. Please read biographies. As far as Dr. Machen goes, there's so many helpful things,

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John, J., it's Gressum, incidentally, you don't pronounce the H, J. Gressum Machen's A Guided Tour of His Life and Thought by Stephen J.

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Nichols, who's associated with Ligonier, that's been so helpful to your broadcast.

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That volume by Stephen Nichols is a good introductory one, a little more in -depth,

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Defending the Faith, J. Gressum Machen and the Crisis of Conservative Protestantism in America by Daryl Hart, who is an

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Orthodox Presbyterian ruling elder, who should have had some say in the republication, but Daryl is really sort of the authority, the living authority on Dr.

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Machen. The old standby that you can get from the Orthodox Presbyterian Church, a biographical memoir by Ned Stonehouse.

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And then I highly recommend John Piper, despite some of his digs at Presbyterians that he does in a gracious way,

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John Piper's lecture on Dr. Machen, there's an hour and a half version and then you can get it in parts,

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John Piper's lecture on Machen captures in so many ways not only the information about Dr.

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Machen, but typical of John Piper, the passion that Dr. Machen had for truth.

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It will give you some of Dr. Machen's fire if you listen to the John Piper's presentation.

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So I had to put that in there, Chris. I'm assuming that's on YouTube or? It is, those are

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YouTube videos. You can just do John Piper, J. Gressum Machen or Piper Machen or whatever, and you'll get them.

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But yeah, they're YouTube videos. Okay. Well, the book that we are celebrating, what were the circumstances that led

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Dr. Machen to write this book? I know that he was expelled from the liberal

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Presbyterian denomination where he once served, and a lot of it had to do with the denomination's support of liberal missionaries.

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And so tell us exactly the circumstances surrounding this. Yeah, great, great question.

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And that is so important, Chris, with people read Christianity and liberalism, as I want you to do, understanding the background in which

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Dr. Machen lived and what she wrote, you'll appreciate the book much more.

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J. Gressum Machen was really the Martin Luther of the 20th century, and Martin Luther was bold.

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He put out there that the Roman system had corrupted the gospel and was very uncompromising in that.

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Dr. Machen was the same way with respect to theological liberalism.

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We'll get to that in a little bit. And in many senses, in the late 20th century and early 21st century,

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Al Mohler and the Southern Baptist Convention has been very much like this, where he, in an uncompromising way, stood for what, frankly, the

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Southern Baptist Convention historically has stood for. So Dr.

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Machen's right in that train, and we need men like that in every generation.

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Just by way of background, if you go in the 19th century, in the 1800s, it was a time of real theological ferment, especially in Europe and particularly in Germany, which was really the main area for people studying philosophy and theology and so on.

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And there were basically three things going on in Europe in the 19th century that would be the background against which

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Dr. Machen was writing. One was what was really kind of just a plain skepticism about what the

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Word of God is and what it taught. It was really an application of the so -called enlightenment and the scientific method to scripture.

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We'll get to that a little bit later in the introduction of Dr. Machen's book. Basically what that meant, applying the scientific method to the scriptures, is what my net don't catch ain't fish.

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You can't prove it scientifically, it can't be real. Virgins don't give birth to children.

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People don't walk on water. There's no way a death on a cross is some way going to bring about forgiveness of sins.

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Bodies don't rise from the dead. This is not scientific. And that part of theological skepticism began to be applied to the

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Christian faith. The Word of God was regarded as pre -scientific, therefore inaccurate at many points, and there was a doing away with the miraculous.

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Now what Dr. Machen will say rightly, you do away with the miraculous, you do away with Christianity.

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But there were people that really wanted to do away with the miraculous and still keep

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Christianity. But that's one thing. The second is technically what's called romanticism in the 19th century, which is applied to religion, put feelings as being the predominant concern.

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Not doctrine, not even religious emotion, but the way the

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Word of God affected you internally, probably the most influential of the theologians in Germany and the father of modern liberal theology was

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Friedrich Schleiermacher. And he put an emphasis on piety, but it was piety based on your feelings, not doctrine.

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And he was a very persuasive man, actually influencing a man that Dr. Machen would study under for a year.

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That religion of feelings on the second program, we'll see how in many ways, many ways, this is what is ravaging evangelicalism.

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The third change that really grew out of the skepticism, the scientism, and romanticism was moralism in religion.

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Those theologians would emphasize the kingdom of God. They'd emphasize the ethics of Jesus.

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But it was the sort of make this world better. Jesus was the exemplary man whose teachings would help make this world better.

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And in some way, that was the kingdom of God. It did away with, if I could put it this way, the other worldliness of the

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New Testament. It took away the end times things and put them in the present under the name of the kingdom of God.

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And it really was plain moralism. It was a way of kind of doing moral things apart from forgiveness in Christ.

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Well, that was Europe. But then in the United States of America, you had from the latter part of the 19th century, and especially the very early part of the 20th century, the growth of what was called dispensationalism.

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And this was popularized by the Schofield Bible, which interestingly had its genesis in Bible conference messages that C .I.

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Schofield gave in Long Island. But that's for another day. Yeah, interestingly. But dispensationalism sought to take the

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Bible literally, and it put its focus on a seven -year tribulation period that was to come in the future.

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The book of Revelation was regarded from chapter four on as being pictures of a future seven -year tribulation, a thousand -year reign of Christ on earth.

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And it supposedly emphasized the Bible being treated literally, literally.

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And it was very, very suspicious of really almost any kind of seriously intellectual treatment of the

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Christian faith. But anyway, that will come in as well with Dr.

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Machen and the fact that on the one hand, he was the strongest opponent of doctrinal liberalism moving away from really what was the historic

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Christian faith, and yet he wasn't comfortable with the so -called fundamentalism of dispensationalism.

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He would regard himself as a fundamentalist, and that he held to the fundamentals of the faith, which we'll get to later.

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On the other hand, he was very clearly Reformed. He held to the body of teaching represented in the

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Westminster Confession of Faith and larger and shorter catechisms, and so that's what makes him an interesting figure.

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He's not a liberal, and yet he's not a fundamentalist in that very popular sense of the word.

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Now, was that term, fundamentalist, did it have the negative baggage as we would view that term today, or,

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I mean, did Machen have any misgivings about identifying himself as a fundamentalist?

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Yeah, those are great questions, Chris. I could think of a whole program for it, although Daryl Hart would be better dealing with it than I would be.

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Originally, the concept of the fundamentals, that came out in,

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I think, a five -volume series called The Fundamentals, early in the 20th century, that sought to defend the inspiration of the scriptures, the inerrancy of the scriptures, the blood atonement, the miracles of Christ, the resurrection of Christ, and those volumes, which really were very well done, were written by Baptists, by Presbyterians, I think there were some

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Episcopalians in there, and so on, and that was where the term came in, the fundamentals of the faith, but what you're talking about, and what, and Dr.

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Machen believed those fundamentals, he was the defender of those fundamentals, but there was also that dispensational fundamentalism, which ended up, as a result of the battles with liberalism, kind of segregating itself on its own and becoming, in many ways, a subculture, and Dr.

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Machen would have been utterly uncomfortable with that, but again, Daryl Hart, in his book, that old -time religion deals with that, and would be a better person to speak on that than I would be.

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Yeah, it's an interesting phrase, that old -time religion, because many of our fundamentalist friends, what they call old -time religion, and that good old gospel, and so on, very often they're referring to things that only came to existence in the 19th century.

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Right, that's right. Yeah, I mean, dispensationalism itself was an invention of the, in the middle part of the 19th century.

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You know, it was not historic Christianity. We have to go to our first break right now, and if you do have a question for Pastor Bill Shishko, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

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c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com.

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As always, give us your first name, at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence, if you live outside of the

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USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

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Let's say you are uncomfortable with something that is being taught at the church where you are a member.

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We would not want you to identify yourself, because that would de facto identify your church.

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So those are, that's just one reason why you might want to remain anonymous, but if you're just asking a general question, whether it's about the fundamentalist modernist controversy of the earlier part of the 20th century, or about specifically

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J. Gresham Machen's book, or about J. Gresham Machen in general, or if you have a theological question or a pastoral question for Pastor Bill, if it's just general in nature, give us your first name, at least, city and state of residence, and country of residence.

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Don't go away. We'll be right back with Pastor Bill Shishko after these messages from our sponsors. I'm Dr.

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Joseph Piper, President Emeritus and Professor of Systematic and Applied Theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary.

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Every Christian who's serious about the Deformed Faith and the Westminster Standards should have and use the eight -volume commentary on the

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Theology and Ethics of the Westminster Larger Catechism, titled Authentic Christianity, by Dr.

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Joseph Morecraft. It is much more than an exposition of the Larger Catechism, it is a thoroughly researched work that utilizes biblical exegesis as well as historical and systematic theology.

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Dr. Morecraft is Pastor of Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, and I urge everyone looking for a biblically faithful church in that area to visit that fine congregation.

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For details on the eight -volume commentary, go to westminstercommentary .com, westminstercommentary .com.

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For details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, visit heritagepresbyterianchurch .com,

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heritagepresbyterianchurch .com. Please tell Dr. Morecraft and the saints at Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia that Dr.

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Joseph Piper of Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary sent you. I'm Brian McLaughlin, President of the

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Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. We're now back with Pastor Bill Shishko of The Haven, which is an

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Orthodox Presbyterian church congregation in Comac, Long Island, New York, and we are discussing

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Part 1 of a two -part discussion celebrating the 100th anniversary of J .E.

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Gresham Machen's classic work, Christianity and Liberalism, and once again, Part 2,

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God willing, will be held on Wednesday, November 29th. And once again, if you have a question for Pastor Bill, please submit your questions to chrisarnzen at gmail .com,

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give us your first name at least, city and state, and country of residence, and Pastor Bill, before I go to any listener questions,

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I'd like you to continue with putting a magnifying glass over the introduction to this classic work.

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Just a little on the background of Dr. Actually, it was not a doctor, interestingly.

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Oh, okay. It was called Doss, it was nicknamed, but J .E. Gresham Machen was born

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July 28th, 1881 in Baltimore, very wealthy, prestigious, very well -to -do, very southern aristocratic family.

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His father, interestingly, was an Episcopalian and a very well -known lawyer in Baltimore.

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His mother, Mary, who had the religious influence on him, was a staunch Presbyterian and taught him the

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Westminster Shorter Catechism when he was young, and they attended the very prestigious

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Franklin Street Presbyterian Church. He had an outstanding classical education at Johns Hopkins University.

38:07

He was a brilliant scholar and was elected to Phi Beta Kappa once he was done with his undergraduate schooling there.

38:16

In 1902, he goes to Princeton Seminary and studies theology at the same time he's working on his master's degree at Princeton University in the classics.

38:27

And in 1905, he takes a year to do his theological studies in Germany, and he has his faith challenged by Wilhelm Hermann, who was really the father of what we would know of as modernist theology.

38:48

He was a Lutheran theologian. He had been influenced by Friedrich Schleiermacher, and apparently a very imposing figure.

38:57

This is a lesson for all of us. Dr. Machen was almost brought over to the liberal position, not because of what

39:08

Hermann taught, because Hermann, for example, simply believed that God was the power of goodness, that Jesus was only an exemplary man, but he was a kind man, and he was a passionate man.

39:22

And he spoke about faith, and he spoke about faith very warmly.

39:28

And even though Dr. Machen knew that what Hermann's faith was in was not historic

39:35

Christianity, he was taken by his character. And apparently he had seen a lot of coldness, a lot of formalism among those who held to the

39:47

Reformed faith. And that almost won him over, but he did come back in 1906.

39:54

He joins Princeton Seminary faculty as an instructor in New Testament, and he is befriended by Francis Lindley Patton, and above all,

40:06

Benjamin Warfield, who was the great Presbyterian theologian of the late 19th and early 20th century.

40:14

J. Grestin Machen regarded Benjamin Warfield as the greatest man he'd ever met.

40:21

And Warfield, who loved doctrine and emphasized it and was very warm and passionate, that brought

40:29

Dr. Machen to a... It helped him in his battles, so to speak, with liberalism.

40:38

He was ordained in 1914, called as an associate professor of New Testament studies at Princeton.

40:45

Interestingly, he served in World War I. He was not in favor of the war. In fact, he was not a

40:50

Woodrow Wilson fan, even though his family knew President Wilson. He served with the

40:56

YMCA in World War I. He wanted to be of help to people, but some of his comments on the war, for those of you who have political interest, would be fascinating.

41:07

Princeton years, 1918 to 1929. By 1918, Dr. Machen was known as probably the preeminent conservative

41:18

New Testament scholar in the United States. And by then, there were the battles with modernism or liberalism over against evangelicalism.

41:29

Dr. Machen representing the historic Christian evangelical view.

41:35

His book, The Origin of Paul's Religion, that came out in 1921, blasted the idea proposed by liberals that Paul's religion was simply an outgrowth of Greek philosophy and the liberal view, amazingly, is that Paul's religion, quote -unquote, was entirely different than the religion of Jesus.

42:02

And even today, Machen's Origin of Paul's Religion emphasizes that the roots of Paul's religion were certainly in the life, the person, and the work of Christ.

42:16

Likewise, his volume, The Virgin Birth of Christ, What is Faith, that he wrote in 1925, very pastoral kind of volume about what faith is and our trust in the

42:27

Lord is. Then, 1923, the book Christianity and Liberalism comes out, which we're featuring on this program, in which

42:38

Dr. Machen had the audacity to say, rightly, liberalism, theological liberalism or modernism is not a different brand of Christianity.

42:52

Liberalism is the chief rival of Christianity, said

42:57

Dr. Machen. He also said it is anti -intellectual, it is more the expression of individual human experience than of doctrine, and basically said that it empties not only the

43:13

Bible but creeds and theology of all meaning, and this, I mean, this was putting gas into a fire for him to say that views that were increasingly common, not only in Presbyterian churches but in others, they were all the mainline denominations,

43:33

Presbyterian, Lutheran, Episcopalian, they were all facing these challenges with modernism, and so Dr.

43:40

Machen's book was the one that basically said liberalism's not another branch of Christianity, it isn't

43:48

Christianity at all above all because it denies the supernatural. Now that's what brought

43:54

Machen into something of an exile. He was at odds with liberal

43:59

Protestantism including what would take over Princeton Seminary.

44:06

By that, by the late 1920s, there were moves to take that seminary that was conservative and have it brought more into line with liberal theology, and if you read

44:21

David Calhoun's two volumes on the history of Princeton Seminary, second volume, you have your tissue box there, when you see how those who are quite frankly illiberal took over that seminary that had such a history of standing for orthodoxy.

44:40

We'll come back to that a little bit later. At the same time, as we mentioned before, he was at odds with fundamentalism and its very anti -intellectual attitude, a lot of it anyway, you know, just quote the

44:52

Bible kind of thing, and so Dr. Machen, really till the end of his life, it was kind of an exile for him.

45:00

Anyway, the battles. In Chris, there were three battles that actually form a template for the battles between those who held to the fundamentals of the faith and those who denied them among many

45:18

Baptist churches and Lutheran churches and so on. And here's the template.

45:25

Number one was the quest to, even by those who held to orthodoxy, say that we really shouldn't make issues with those who don't hold to orthodoxy.

45:42

1924 and 1925, there was a decline in the relations among the faculty members at Princeton, brought out by the magazine the

45:51

Presbyterian, that had an article that said, are there two different parties at Princeton? Machen wanted doctrinal precision and care for doctrinal precision, but Charles Erdmann was the leader of those who was really tolerant of doctrinal error and this is very interesting.

46:09

He wrote in a letter to Dwight Moody, controversies don't win followers to Christ and Erdmann really wanted to emphasize evangelism and personal piety that put doctrinal distinctiveness on a shelf.

46:29

That's one thing. It's called latitudinarianism in many ways. That's one thing.

46:36

The second battle was an institutional one. 1922 there was an infamous sermon preached by really one of the greatest preachers of the early 20th century.

46:49

He wasn't orthodox, but Harry Emerson Fosdick. Harry Emerson Fosdick preached a sermon called,

46:57

Shall the Fundamentalists Win? And there, in his sermon, he noted doctrines like, and these were the fundamentals, the inerrancy of scripture, the virgin birth of Christ and even to some extent, in some quarters, the deity of Christ, the substitutionary atonement, the bodily resurrection of Jesus, the authenticity of Christ's miracles.

47:26

Those were the five fundamentals of the faith that were kind of on the chopping block.

47:34

Fosdick said, basically, if you want to hold these views as a fundamentalist, fine, but don't write off those of us who don't hold to these fundamentals.

47:50

So there's where the toleration of doctrinal error came in. Now remember, this is 1922.

47:57

1923 is the publication of Dr. Machen's book Christianity and Liberalism.

48:05

1924, the year later, there is a gathering in upstate

48:14

New York, in Auburn, New York, in which, and this is stunning, 1 ,274 ministers of the

48:28

Presbyterian Church USA say exactly what

48:33

Harry Emerson Fosdick did. You can hold these fundamentals if you want, but don't write off those who don't hold to the fundamentals of the faith.

48:45

Again, inerrancy of Scripture, virgin birth of Christ, substitutionary atonement, bodily resurrection, authenticity of Christ's miracles.

48:55

And that shows you that the level of rot that was in the Presbyterian Church of the

49:01

United States of America, 1924, the year after Dr. Machen's Christianity and Liberalism came out.

49:11

Well, what happened was, and this is where the sad, sad story comes, in 1929, the

49:18

General Assembly of the Presbyterian Church USA, what we call the

49:23

Mainline Church, voted to reorganize Princeton Seminary, requiring that two ministers who had signed the

49:32

Auburn Affirmation be on the Board of Trustees for the seminary. And that marked the beginning of the end of the

49:40

Orthodoxy. Dr. Machen went so far as to say that Princeton Seminary died with that.

49:47

That was 1929, and it was in September of 1929 that Westminster Seminary was formed, which was really to be the continuation of Princeton and its commitment to historic reformed

50:03

Orthodoxy. So you had, if I could put it this way, the mindset of toleration, that's one thing.

50:11

The second is you had the academic side of this, where you had a development of a school, and later there would be others like this, that defended the fundamentals of the faith.

50:24

But then I'll wrap up the Machen bio with this. The third is the church aspect.

50:29

Dr. Machen, who had no desire to form a new school or a new church, what had happened in the

50:36

Presbyterian Church USA, Dr. Machen in 1933 led the foundation, the formation of the

50:45

Independent Board for Presbyterian Foreign Missions. And here's the reason.

50:51

The Presbyterian Church of the United States in America had issued a book called

50:57

Rethinking Missions, and were promoting the works of Pearl Buck, who was a missionary.

51:05

Well, Rethinking Missions denied the new birth, denied the inerrancy and inspiration of the scriptures, denied the miracles of Christ, basically denied historic

51:14

Christianity. And this was the board, this was the mission board of the

51:21

Presbyterian Church of the United States in America. And that's when an opposition,

51:27

Dr. Machen formed, led the formation of the Independent Board for Presbyterian Foreign Missions.

51:34

That prompted the response from the General Assembly, the highest governing body of the

51:41

Presbyterian Church USA, that basically said, you support, you don't support the boards of the church.

51:49

And it is schismatic. It's as if you don't even come to the Lord's Supper. A gross example of tyranny on the church level.

51:59

1930, Dr. Machen and others still refused to support the boards that were supporting liberalism.

52:07

In 1935, Dr. Machen was defrocked in Presbyterian structure, a

52:14

Presbytery, a regional group of churches ordains. He was part of the of the Brunswick, New Brunswick Presbytery in New Jersey, very liberal

52:23

Presbytery. They defrocked him. He appealed to the 1936 General Assembly and the

52:30

Assembly denied the appeal and basically said, Dr. Machen and others were, could not be considered as ministers in the

52:38

Presbyterian Church USA. They suspended them from the ministry. That prompted on June 11th, 1936, the formation of the

52:48

Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Dr. Machen is the first moderator.

52:55

And do I have time to, I know you've got a commercial coming up. Is that coming up now or we have two minutes? Yes, we actually have to go now and then we'll pick up where you left off.

53:04

Please be patient with us, folks. It's the midway break, a little longer than the other breaks. I look forward to hearing from you and your questions when we return.

53:25

It's such a blessing to hear from Iron Sharpens Iron radio listeners from all over the world.

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Before I return to my guest, Bill Shishko, and our discussion on J. Gresham Machen and our celebration of the 100th anniversary of his classic work,

01:10:23

Christianity and Liberalism, I just have a couple more announcements to make. First of all, if you love this show, folks, and you don't want it to disappear,

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I need a church in the subject line. That's also the email address where you can submit a question to Pastor Bill Shishko on Jay Gresham Machen on his book

01:13:20

Christianity and Liberalism or anything regarding the fundamentalist modernist controversy or Christian theology in general.

01:13:31

That's Chris Arnzen at Gmail dot com and Pastor Bill, right before the midway break, you were discussing or informing us about the tragic defrocking of Jay Gresham Machen and you said it's actually supposed to be pronounced

01:13:47

Gresham? Gresham. I've got to try to remember that because I keep butchering his name.

01:13:54

I got to remember not calling him doctor because he wasn't a doctor. And I've also heard people who should know better call him

01:14:03

Machen. So I'm not sure. But anyway, so pick up where you left off about that.

01:14:12

Well, let me just, Dr. Machen's home going was January 1st, 1937 and it really kind of represents his life.

01:14:21

He was in isolation in many ways. He was no longer a part of the southern aristocratic

01:14:30

Presbyterian culture that he was born into and nor was he really an American fundamentalist, although he was the preeminent defender of the fundamentals of the faith.

01:14:40

So more than one person has commented his death in Bismarck, North Dakota on January 1st, 1937.

01:14:49

He had had pleurisy. He had developed pneumonia. He was exhausted and yet he continued to keep his speaking engagements out there and felt ill.

01:14:58

His famous telegram to Professor John Murray from Westminster Seminary was so thankful for the active obedience of Christ, no hope without it.

01:15:09

And he'd said to the pastor who visited him there, an Orthodox Presbyterian minister, isn't the reformed faith grand?

01:15:16

As he reflected on glory and what it was. So the end of his life was quite remarkable.

01:15:22

I'm H .L. Mencken, who was the editor or writer for the Baltimore Evening Sun, a fellow

01:15:30

Baltimorean with Dr. Machen. H .L. Mencken was no friend of Christianity, historic

01:15:39

Christianity at all, but he had great respect for Dr. Machen, even though he disagreed with him.

01:15:45

He had great respect for Dr. Machen because he knew that Dr. Machen, or I should call him

01:15:51

Dr., but I continue to do. I'll give him another name. Everybody else is getting him.

01:15:58

Professor Machen held to what Presbyterians and reformed people have always held to, and he mused over how it was that he was deposed by the very church body that he accurately represented.

01:16:16

H .L. Mencken was wonderful for pointing out all these glaring inconsistencies, but he wrote an obituary for Professor Machen on January 18, 1937, and he said this,

01:16:34

Machen fell out with the reformers who have been, and he's saying this facetiously, fell out with the reformers who have been trying in late years to convert the

01:16:46

Presbyterian church into a kind of literary and social club devoted vaguely to good works.

01:16:57

Wow, Mencken got it, and that quote, though Machen lost in the end and was forced out of Princeton, it must be manifest that he marched off to Philadelphia with all the honors of war.

01:17:16

Wow. And he also compared Machen to William Jennings Bryan, who was a fundamentalist leader, candidate for the presidency, and a

01:17:25

Presbyterian, but he said Dr. Machen was to Bryan as the

01:17:30

Matterhorn is to a wart. Respect for Bryan.

01:17:36

And again, H .L. Mencken didn't hold one wit to what

01:17:44

J. Gressen Machen believed and taught, but he said this man is representing what historically

01:17:53

Presbyterian and Reformed people have held. Why was he booted out of the

01:17:58

Presbyterian Church USA? So it's an interesting testimony to him, and I hope,

01:18:04

Chris, this is just enough to whet people's appetites to read Christianity and liberalism.

01:18:12

I don't know what time we have left, I want to introduce it a bit, but I don't know, have you gotten questions for people or have

01:18:17

I been blathering on so much they haven't said anything? Oh yeah, continuing to make mention of the reasons that I very clearly remember the obituary by H .L.

01:18:37

Mencken and J. Gressen is that, as you probably know,

01:18:43

I wrote a version of a video for our friend

01:18:50

Jason Wallace of the Presbyterian Church in Magna Utah, another

01:18:56

Orthodox Presbyterian, and he asked me to read in a voice that I invented to sound like what

01:19:09

I envisioned a crusty atheist journalist would sound like, and I read that magnificent obituary that Mencken wrote in honor of J.

01:19:23

Gressen Mencken, and it's mind -blowing that someone who was an atheist would write such lofty and glowing thoughts, this contemporary of his who is on the other side of the argument over the existence of God and the inerrancy and reliability and authenticity of the

01:19:46

Scriptures and everything else that's of most importance that Christianity stands for.

01:19:51

And by the way, folks, if you want to listen to this, all you have to do is go to YouTube and YouTube .com

01:20:00

and type in the search engine, The Unexpected Orthodoxy of the Atheist, or you could just type in H .L.

01:20:08

Mencken's obituary, and you probably don't even have to type in that many words, and that will come up, and I just want to call out to our friend

01:20:18

Jason Wallace. If you want to find out more about his documentaries, which both Bill Shishkoff have done a number of voiceovers for these documentaries, go to gospelutah .org,

01:20:33

but sorry for that, I just thought that that would make sense to plug for bringing that very issue up.

01:20:42

Now, do you want me to go to some of our listener questions, or do you want to continue on for a little bit on your thread?

01:20:50

I'm interested in the questions, and I can do this kind of briefly, I think. The next program that we have on November 29th,

01:20:57

I want to get into the chapters in Christianity and liberalism where Dr. Machen deals with doctrine and specific doctrines.

01:21:08

But in rereading Dr. Machen's introduction to his book,

01:21:19

I was... Wow, for me, this is really remarkable, and this is a wow chapter in his introduction.

01:21:27

I just want to whet people's appetites, not only for the book, but the introduction itself, which is prophetic, small p.

01:21:37

Dr. Machen writing in 1923, Chris, you read this, and it seems like he wrote it just a few years ago.

01:21:47

Just a few highlights, the last one is the one I want to emphasize, though. He emphasizes right from the beginning doctrinal precision, which is really what

01:21:57

Christianity and liberalism is about, the importance of doctrinal precision. Why do

01:22:02

I say that? It's mind -boggling, mind -boggling, that professed

01:22:11

Christians in our day who have so many resources to understand historic

01:22:17

Orthodox Christianity will still think that what Joel Osteen is pumping out every week is somehow

01:22:26

Christianity. I'm not questioning the hearts of the people who say this, but it's a statement about latitudinarianism.

01:22:39

This is not a matter of kind of pushing the boundaries of Christianity.

01:22:46

This is something that is not Christianity that's being pushed out of Christianity.

01:22:53

So Dr. Machen's emphasis on doctrinal precision is it is so pertinent to today that dogged commitment that he has to doctrine, and yet at the same time being gracious in dealing with those with whom he disagreed.

01:23:11

We've not always been as strong on that as we ought to have. Second thing in the introduction,

01:23:18

I've mentioned it before, his opposition to the application of modern scientific methods, what he called the modern lust of scientific conquest and materialism.

01:23:31

The scientific method assumes that there's nothing beyond what you can put in a test tube and applying that model to the

01:23:39

Christian faith does away with all of the supernatural.

01:23:46

Again, virgins don't have babies, right? And so that kind of a thing not only undermines those things, but it ends up doing away with historic

01:23:59

Christianity. If I could use a formal word that's very important, Dr.

01:24:04

Machen held to the antithesis, the exact opposite between Christianity and all other religions.

01:24:11

We're not like that in our world today. People will more and more and more think how can we take modern cultural views and adapt them to the scriptures.

01:24:24

The quest today to say that because people deal with quote unquote gender dysphoria, therefore that ought to be acceptable, that living a lifestyle contrary to your gender should be acceptable because people are made this way.

01:24:49

People are made with these kinds of sexual proclivities and we can't change them.

01:24:58

That's an example of how the scientific materialistic worldview is in so many ways gobbling up evangelicalism.

01:25:09

But that's just number two. Number three is all this is in the introduction.

01:25:16

Dr. Machen saw this in 1923, the decline in culture because of the triumph of the scientific and the materialistic over the spiritual realm, the realm of the holy.

01:25:33

Now Francis Schaeffer would pick up on this as he dealt with culture in the latter part of the 20th century.

01:25:41

But Dr. Machen noticed the emptiness of so much modern literature in the 1920s, so much artwork that became bizarre and music that was becoming bizarre.

01:25:58

Well if that's the case in 1923 because of a materialistic worldview, my, how much worse are things now a hundred years later?

01:26:11

And he scored in this how education had become more committed to what he called utilitarianism.

01:26:23

How you get the greatest good for the greatest number of people rather than really exploring the world.

01:26:30

1923, what do we have today? Common core curriculum which has,

01:26:37

I guess is the commendable goal, having certain standards that by which all students, that all students have certain kinds of education.

01:26:45

But what's happened is that desiccated education, education becomes just preparing young people for tests.

01:26:54

And Dr. Machen saw this as destroying personality. He was a strong believer in education and had a lot of different ways you could do it.

01:27:04

And then he also spoke in that introduction about how education was becoming basically prey to the state.

01:27:16

The state, this is 1923 now, was beginning to dictate to the schools the different political views that ought to be taught with nothing else being acceptable.

01:27:28

Hello, what do we have today with an imposition of woke culture in public schools?

01:27:36

Teachers and the educational establishment in many cases telling parents we're the ones who should be determining what your children get.

01:27:46

Dr. Machen saw that. And that's another reason why that introduction is so important.

01:27:52

And the last one and here's what I want to quote from Dr. Machen in what is really a chilling section, a prophetic section about education in the foreword to the book.

01:28:09

Dr. Machen says the object of education it is now assumed, 1923 is the production of the greatest happiness for the greatest number, but the greatest happiness for the greatest number it is assumed further can be defined only by the will of the majority.

01:28:34

Idiosyncrasies in education for example I would say in our day Christian education.

01:28:40

In idiosyncrasies in education therefore it is said must be avoided and the choice of schools must be taken away from the individual person and placed in the hands of the state.

01:29:00

Chris this is 1923 that Machen wrote this. And as a reaction to this there was the proliferation of Christian schools in many cases led by fundamentalists which we can appreciate.

01:29:15

But today when I think for a while there was a pushback against this.

01:29:22

I mean there was a move in 1920s in New York State to disallow people from having their children schooled in anything other than a public school.

01:29:37

Now there was pushback on that. But you're seeing today in various ways how the state is taking over.

01:29:44

So again I really want the introduction alone shows you how important the book is.

01:29:53

Great. Well let me go to at least a couple of our listener questions for now.

01:29:59

We have Tristan in Manahasset Hills Long Island New York and Tristan asked can you tell us something about the rift between two

01:30:10

Presbyterian fundamentalists in the earlier part of the 20th century and those would be

01:30:18

J. Gressa Machen and Carl McIntyre. Well that's a great question from Tristan.

01:30:28

Well the rift. What Tristan is talking about.

01:30:34

Dr. Machen had led the formation of the independent board for Presbyterian foreign missions.

01:30:40

That became the lightning rod in the Presbyterian church USA because ministers were supporting that were not supporting the boards of the church and frankly they were hurting financially.

01:30:52

Sadly so many issues in church life over dollars. Anyway Dr. McIntyre was a leader of a fundamentalist among the

01:31:01

Presbyterians. He was actually part of the formation of what we would know now as the

01:31:09

Orthodox Presbyterian church although later there would be a cleavage with what is now the

01:31:15

Orthodox Presbyterian church and Dr. and Carl McIntyre would become the leader of what was called the

01:31:24

Bible Presbyterian church but I think what Tristan is referring to is there was a power push within the independent board for Presbyterian foreign missions and Carl McIntyre became the head of that organization.

01:31:40

Dr. Machen was basically moved out of his position there and I'm not familiar with all the ins and outs of that but that was devastating for Dr.

01:31:51

Machen. Many believe that that did cause a decline in his health but there was that conflict and later

01:31:59

Carl McIntyre would become a leader of the fundamentalist

01:32:06

Presbyterians who did hold to a dispensational or a premillennial view.

01:32:12

That's an interesting story. That's one of the reasons

01:32:17

Francis Schaeffer was part of the Bible Presbyterian church early on in his time in the ministry but it was as he saw the rancor and the not the divisiveness but the rancor and almost the animosity that Dr.

01:32:35

McIntyre and some of his followers had toward other believers in Christ that's what prompted

01:32:42

Francis Schaeffer to leave that camp and he would eventually become part of what was called the

01:32:50

Reformed Presbyterian church evangelical synod so that's one of the sad sadder episodes in Presbyterian history in the 20th century but I go back to the fact that John Piper is excellent dealing with this.

01:33:06

See Dr. Machen had seen a rancor and a I don't want to say hatred but a lack of warmth and care that sadly many

01:33:18

Reformed people had and when he saw among the liberals in Germany a warmth, a kindness it was attractive to him.

01:33:27

Now thankfully under the influence of Benjamin Warfield he realized that solid doctrine must come first but it's a cautionary tale we've got to be sure that even in dealing with those we differ with we are being gracious.

01:33:45

Okay, thank you Tristan and make sure that you provide for us your full mailing address in Manhasset Hills, Long Island, New York because you have just won a free copy of Christianity in Liberalism by J.

01:34:01

Gressom Machen and that is compliments of Reformation Trust which is the publishing arm of Ligonier Ministries and we want to thank

01:34:10

Ligonier Ministries for their generosity in providing us with a limited number of books, copies of this classic by,

01:34:20

I almost said doctor J. Gressom Machen and thank you for joining us and let us know by the way if you are a first time questioner because if so, you have also won a free new

01:34:34

New American Standard Bible and by the way these will be shipped to you by Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, CVBBS .com

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and we want to thank them for always shipping out the books and Bibles that our listeners win with no charge being, no cost being charged to Iron Trip and Zion Radio or our listeners.

01:34:57

Thank you so much CVBBS .com We have Grady, a very loyal listener of Iron Trip and Zion Radio in Asheboro, North Carolina.

01:35:07

Greetings brothers, was the battle that J. Gressom Machen fought the same battle that Charles Haddon Spurgeon fought in the downgrade controversy at the end of his life and perhaps you could even define that in a summary form

01:35:24

Pastor Bill? Yeah, that's a really really good question from the brother. I'd have to go back and refresh myself on the downgrade controversy.

01:35:34

I've read about it in Ian Murray's volume. Downgrade controversy focused as I, if I'm correct on the inspiration of the scriptures there's the

01:35:46

Bible, the word of God the downgrade controversy was a waning of that.

01:35:52

But, and again I'm going on a limb on this, my guess is that probably Spurgeon was dealing with the same the seeds of the same thing that Dr.

01:36:03

Machen was because the liberalism or modernism that Dr.

01:36:09

Machen dealt with really was developing in 19th century

01:36:15

Germany about the time of the end of Spurgeon's life. So I would go on a limb and say yeah,

01:36:22

I think that there probably were some similarities but regardless in biographies, read about Spurgeon's battle and the downgrade controversy because it does deal with the final authority of Holy Scripture and church life and is very relevant to today.

01:36:40

Well we have to go to our final break and we'll try to get to as many listener questions as we can but there's always part two on Wednesday the 29th of November where we can read some of those questions if we run out of time today.

01:36:56

But we'll be right back with Pastor Bill Shishko with the remainder of today's discussion during part one of our celebration of the 100th anniversary of Christianity and liberalism by J.

01:37:11

Grussom Machen. I'm Dr.

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That's PTLBibleRebinding .com I also want to remind our listeners, you've been hearing the ads every day for years for historical

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01:51:56

Pastor Bill, before I go to any more listener questions, I really want to make sure that what you most wanted to be etched in the hearts and minds of the listeners today is said for the remainder of Part 1, and then we can move on if we have time to other listener questions.

01:52:14

And don't be too upset, folks, if we don't get to your question because there's always Wednesday, the 29th of November when we are going to be conducting

01:52:22

Part 2 of the same topic. But, Pastor Bill, if you could. Yeah, I think I really want people to get

01:52:30

J. Gresham Machen's Christianity and Liberalism 100th Anniversary Edition.

01:52:35

Kevin DeYoung has an interesting foreword to the book. But read it keeping in mind what we covered for the background, what

01:52:44

Dr. Machen was writing against. And I think what do I want to leave for this? Read his introductions, about 16 pages and just be bowled over by how prophetic small p

01:52:57

Dr. Machen was as he wrote in 1923. Okay, well,

01:53:04

I guess I have time to go to a couple more listener questions. Let's see.

01:53:09

We have Ted in Moundville, Alabama. And it's a long question so I'm going to have to abbreviate it.

01:53:17

I do realize it has become something of a cliché when assessing the life and work of a long gone public figure.

01:53:25

But I can't help but wonder what Machen would have thought of the state of evangelical belief and practice in the 21st century.

01:53:33

Any thoughts from Pastor Shishko on that question? And what would 21st century evangelicalism have made of J.

01:53:42

Gresham Machen if he were a contemporary figure? My response is put in your calendars,

01:53:50

November 29th, 24 o 'clock to 6 o 'clock p .m.,

01:53:56

and that's exactly what we're going to be dealing with. I've been burdened for many years to think of how

01:54:01

Dr. Machen's volume can be applied to modern evangelicalism. And I don't want to be superficial with it, but there are a lot of applications you can make.

01:54:11

What would evangelicals think of Dr. Machen today? I think the same way Charles Erdman at Princeton Seminary regarded

01:54:20

Dr. Machen as too much of a stickler when it came to doctrine. I think that is the way modern evangelicalism would think of Dr.

01:54:27

Machen today. Okay, and Ted, make sure we have your full mailing address in Moundville, Alabama, because you have also won a free copy of Christianity and Liberalism, the book we are celebrating today.

01:54:41

And I think I forgot to tell that to Grady, too, in Asheboro, North Carolina. You've also won a free copy, as has everyone who has submitted a question.

01:54:53

Prudence in Old Saybrook, Connecticut asks,

01:54:58

Can you tell us who some of J. Gressom Machen's heroes were?

01:55:06

Prudence in Old Saybrook was a wonderful old -time radio museum there.

01:55:12

In Old Saybrook, Connecticut? I think it's in that area.

01:55:19

The influences, Benjamin Warfield, number one, number two, and number three are

01:55:24

Benjamin Warfield. He was quite taken by him because of his emphasis on doctrine, his godliness, and so on.

01:55:32

So when you read Benjamin Warfield, you'll get the background to Dr. Machen. He was also quite taken.

01:55:40

Well, I'll leave it like that. I think that would really be the main one. Okay, we have

01:55:48

Fulton in Cuttshaw, Long Island, New York. And Fulton asks,

01:55:55

How do you counsel brothers and sisters in Christ how to react when they discover that some of our great heroes, even of the

01:56:05

Reformed faith, had not so biblical ideas of race relations and things like that?

01:56:14

There is the temptation and even the command of many in our modern age to totally dismiss to the wastebasket of history some of these great minds that did have serious flaws in their understanding over those things and other matters.

01:56:34

That's a good question. Using the argument of Sumpter today, we better get rid of all the biblical characters other than Christ, because they all had their flaws, whether it be

01:56:44

Noah, whether it would be David, whether it would be the prophets. The fact of the matter is, we're dealing with people that are fallen people, and we need to be honest about that.

01:56:54

The only perfect one is Christ. And there are cultural sins coming from a

01:57:00

Cretan background. When Paul says the Cretans are all liars and slow bellies, they're liars and lazy.

01:57:07

I hope that's not true of me. That's a cultural sin that Paul deals with. And there's cultural sins that need to be dealt with.

01:57:14

But you don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, which our culture, sadly, in such a foolish way, does.

01:57:22

Well, Pastor Bill, it has been such a joy to have you on the program today, as it always is.

01:57:29

And I am eagerly looking forward to part two of our discussion. And I want to remind our listeners that Pastor Bill is the pastor of the

01:57:43

Haven, which is an Orthodox Presbyterian congregation in Comac, Long Island, New York.

01:57:52

And the website for that fine congregation is thehavenli .org,

01:57:59

correct? That's it. thehavenli .org. And I urge you to please, if you live in that area or are visiting that area, to visit that congregation on the

01:58:12

Lord's Day. I was just so blessed the last time I was there, which was actually my first time there.

01:58:19

I had visited the Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Franklin Square, where Pastor Bill used to pastor, many times.

01:58:28

But this was the first time I had ever visited the Haven, and I just loved every moment of it.

01:58:33

I loved the unique way that you incorporate a worship service that would be liturgical without in any way, shape, or form being dry or robotic.

01:58:49

It was just full of life and passion. And, of course, it was great to not only hear you exegete the

01:58:56

Scriptures, but to see old friends of mine, some of whom I hadn't seen in decades.

01:59:02

And I look forward to a return visit there sometime, hopefully in the near future. Amen. Looking forward to seeing you.

01:59:10

And folks, please tune in tomorrow, because we have a very timely guest tomorrow,

01:59:18

Baruch Mos, who is not only a native Israeli, but he is a

01:59:25

Reformed Baptist, and he's going to be giving his views on the current crisis in Israel, due to the battle going on between the

01:59:37

Israeli army and Hamas. But I hope that you listen tomorrow to Baruch Mos.

01:59:46

And I want to thank all of you who listened, especially those who took the time to write. I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater