October 4, 2016 Show with Dr. Steven Collins on “Discovering the City of Sodom: The Fascinating, True Account of the Discovery of the Old Testament’s Most Infamous City”

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Now here's our host chris arnton.

Good afternoon.

Cumberland county, pennsylvania.

And the rest of humanity living on the planet earth.

Who are listening via live streaming?

This is chris arnton your host of iron sharpens iron wishing you all a happy tuesday on this fourth

day of october 2016.

I'm so excited to have a guest on today who was on the old iron sharpens iron

program.

Uh over probably a decade ago, and i'm delighted that he is returning now To once again

address a subject that is absolutely fascinating to me.

And I am sure will be fascinating to many of you.

He's going to be discover.

He's going to be discussing his discovery of the city of sodom.

And his book is also something we're going to be addressing also titled discovering the city of sodom the

fascinating true account Of the discovery of the old testament's most infamous

city.

If you would like to join us on the air with a question of your own for dr Stephen collins, our email address is

chris arntson at gmail .com.

Ch r i s a r n z e n At gmail .com

and please give us your first name city and state and country of residence.

If you live outside of the usa, dr Collins is also dean of the college of archaeology

and biblical history at trinity southwest University in albuquerque, new mexico.

That's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens iron.

Dr. Stephen collins.

It's great to be back with you.

Chris.

It's also uh after hearing you say we were I was on the air with you 10 years ago.

That uh, i'm still alive.

Well, uh, is it is it some because uh other archaeologists have threatened your life or something.

Yeah, it may it may be it may not be as dangerous as what the indiana jones movies it

does.

Get a little dicey every once in a while.

Well, I can imagine Uh before I even go into this fascinating discovery.

That you have chronicled in your book that you co -authored with a friend of mine Dr. Latane c scott who has been on this

program as well.

In fact, he was on very recently.

Um.

Before we even get into that.

I want to know something just briefly about Your upbringing your the religious background of your

family and how you came to faith in jesus christ.

Well, chris, I Grew up in a christian family.

It's a great thing that uh, my dad and mom became christians.

Uh.

Before just before I was born by the time I came along they had uh,

They had

made growing up in a christian

young teen.

Uh, I didn't pay much attention to the bible or anything else and uh.

Then I got into uh to high school and actually, uh for some reason I don't think this is on

Most high school curricula and I took that it

made me no end.

And so I was able to into

college frankly,

I ran, uh, you know almost ran from the faith I really had a faith

crisis dealing with Mainly, you know human evolution.

I was majoring in anthropology.

I was doing those kinds of things and I had absolutely nothing.

Uh, Nothing else in my life going on pretty much except school and I

was some ministry, but I was very much focused on my studies

and me away from From the

bible between my junior and senior year.

I I began to study particularly some of the stories about noah in the bible and

some of the the the jumping off point from the ark and where

uh where noah and his sons originated from and I was learning in anthropology that

that particular area around the mountains of eratu was the jumping off point.

Not only for noah, it was also the epicenter of human

population expansion.

And I thought hmm.

That's interesting how documents such as the bible Accurately peg what only

modern anthropologists actually know about human origin

distribution and uh that put me on a

Looking at seriously at the bible from a historical point of view and reject

to reject the of

the bible.

That you

know, I came to the bible as a real critic early on.

My first reaction was to reject it once I got into it deeply

I began to see that in the final analysis when real

Scientific bible

scientific analysis and I began to move in the direction of the bible and i've been going that way ever since.

Well, praise god for that.

I'm, uh, so thankful for God's leading you in that journey away from

disbelief and also away from the more liberal understandings of

biblical history.

And in fact liberal denials of biblical history and that you came to the truth.

And I just I just immediately got transported back in time to my own college years.

I had a I had an anthropology course as well uh, and I can remember our uh,

stuffy british professor who was an atheist uh making comments mocking

uh christianity and religion in general and I can still remember him opening up

a norwegian newspaper and he was trying to show the differences between political correctness

In norway and in america and he said, you know this is an article or an

advertisement that you could never see in an american newspaper and he Translated the norwegian ad for a

travel agency, which said come visit italy before the italians destroy it.

And no offense to my italian listeners that was my anthropology professor bringing that up

but um I have the one of the reasons that this story or there should I say this interview is.

Of such deep fascination to me is from my earliest memories of childhood there

are at least Four things that I wanted to be when I was a little

kid, I wanted to be A geologist.

I wanted to be a paleontologist due to my my great love and fascination for dinosaurs

I wanted to be an archaeologist.

And I wanted to be an artist and I can remember my mother Encouraging me saying you can do all of those

things.

In fact, you could draw the things that you discover and that kind of thing.

And so of course I became a radio talk host.

But um, so.

You'd be amazed at how many people how many uh.

Graduate students I get in doctorals and say, you

know, I always wanted to be an archaeologist when I was a kid.

But my parents talked talked me out of it because they said there was no money in it.

So I went off and got a career and made money and now that i'm close to retirement or i'm in retirement

I'm going to go back and get a master's and a doctorate in archaeology because that's what I always wanted to do.

Now I have the money to do it.

So i'm going to get into it.

It's amazing how many people we have to do that.

Praise god praise god for that.

Uh, so here you are, uh an archaeologist and Tell us about the common

belief.

When you first became an archaeologist the common belief by your peers about

the city of sodom and sodom for those who actually Believed that it existed at all.

I'm talking about the more biblical oriented archaeologist.

Was it uh an entirely different location from where you now are convinced it is?

There are there on sodom the first one.

Is that and the

near eastern steam in the last uh, 35

years or so sodom and gomorrah existed at all

mythical locations.

They have no connection to the physical geography.

Of the near east so they would just

dismiss

professor emeritus of archaeology at the university of arizona.

And a great archaeologist and i've had him out to albuquerque to speak to my students many times.

But he still says to me whenever I see him at asore some of the other professional meetings.

Are you still looking for those mythical cities?

And so I still get that I still get that from people.

So there there there is that large majority of professional archaeologists

they ever existed at all.

So that's one view.

Another view is That

rather

dramatic

with a

lot of other ruins around them.

And more

trying to explain how those particular cities came to be.

That view is sort of given to me by some of my colleagues colleagues like amir mazar and uh,

israel finkelstein and other israeli archaeologists particularly who would say well in

discovering.

The sodom that you believe you've discovered we think you have at least because based on the

geography discovered the pile of ruins upon which the Etiological legend

is based.

And so they would say i've discovered literary sodom.

So that's kind of second view.

So one view is never existed at all.

Second view sort of a middle of the road view is.

It never really existed or happened like the bible describes it.

But it was based on an actual geographical location a pile of ruins that ancient people tried to

explain uh by concocting the story of the destruction of sodom.

The other view That I run into frequently is the far right -wing

fundamentalist view.

That in the southern depths identified by

just a near eastern scholar back in the 20th century

Wf albright scholar and took the bible

seriously.

It was one of the great founding archaeologists of of biblical archaeology.

Uh, he was beloved by all the evangelicals and and the fundamentalist scholar

tied themselves to him and his views.

Well, he spun the idea that sodom by the way.

He failed to analyze the biblical and that was his down.

That was his downfall on this view.

But nobody paid attention to that which makes it strange that fundamentalists would find him appealing if he didn't.

Yeah.

Yeah, but sodom must be either in the dead sea area in

the south.

Or it's under the waters at the shallow end the south shallow end of the dead sea and um,

so.

And by the way, if you pick up a modern a very recent i'm talking about

publication within the last 10 years even the last two or three years you pick up a

bible encyclopedia or Bible dictionary and you read about sodom and gomorrah the location of

sodom and gomorrah.

They will still mention albright and defer to wf albright even though he hasn't been accepted by

the archaeological community for 20 years so

Christian scholars and bibles tend to fall back on

very very frankly if it's more than 20 years old.

In archaeology scrutiny

today and because views have changed better evidence has come along.

Different things have happened in the meantime, but those are the three basic views.

And.

I would say other than the view says it should be.

North of the dead sea on the east side of the jordan road.

Yeah, in fact, uh, I probably uh should have initially already.

Had you explain I sometimes I take it for granted that all my listeners are greatly

familiar with the subjects that i'm speaking and I forget that I have Non -christians

listening very often more often than I realized to begin with.

Um.

And I have new believers in christ Who are listening and they they may have heard of sodom and

gomorrah as most.

Even uh completely biblically illiterate people have heard of it and Have some kind of a

notion typically of what that story is about if even if it's a very vague one but if

you could explain briefly a summary of the Historical cities of sodom and

gomorrah from the old testament.

Yeah, absolutely.

Um before I do that though, let me let me tell uh the listeners where.

Yes, uh by.

Latane scott and I uh discovering the city of sodom.

And by the way, that book was published by Simon and schuster one of the

one publishers on the planet.

And their howard book a

lot of.

Go on amazon and grab that thing.

Yes, they they definitely should and that'll really get them some some details.

I think it's written into tales and all of that.

Latane made it readable.

Ha ha ha ha.

So, uh, thanks.

Thanks to dr. Latane.

Fun reading for for anybody.

Yeah, she's definitely a gifted, uh sister in christ.

That's for certain.

Absolutely and brilliant.

A lot of technical detail in there as well.

So it's a good book for scholars.

It's a good book for lay readers as well.

But um anyway, uh.

We got into this thing and let me go back to 1996.

Uh boy, that makes you feel old when you say back in the previous century.

Um.

I was leading a uh group.

I I do a tour every year of israel and jordan.

I was leading a group of uh to the side of sodom and gomorrah in

the next day.

In israel in the south and we're getting ready to cross the southern border come up and go to sodom and gomorrah which at

the time I accepted as being at the south end of the dead sea the The traditional sites of

babadran and umira two sites that are there in the southern dead sea area.

That had traditionally been identified by many scholars or many evangelical scholars.

Anyway as sodom and gomorrah and so I had that on my list.

I hadn't ever got into that subject.

I had excavated many sites in israel.

I was not I was involved in an excavation at the time.

We just started up an excavation in the west bank.

Uh that year I wasn't looking for anything.

But I thought I would just kind of brush up on the story of day

before I actually took to see it.

And I read that I read the passages from genesis, uh 13 through 19

looking location of sodom just to kind of

freshen up on the story and I read it through that night and When I

got through or something because I don't see anything in this in these

texts.

That would locate sodom in the area where i'm about to take a bunch of tourists and tell them sodom existed.

Uh, so I read it again and again and again about four times that night.

I read through that passage specifically looking At what the bible said about sodom's

location?

And when I got through that night, I thought is there absolutely no

evidence?

Nothing in these primary texts of genesis to locate sodom toward the south into the dead sea, but

everything in there.

Would locate sodom toward the north into the dead seas to the jordan river.

And so I kind of Logged that back in my mind and I by the way, I reached over on my itinerary.

And put question marks by my sodom and gomorrah that I had on the itinerary.

And because I really was doubtful at that point because I like to take people to authentic sites I don't like to take them to

you know phony or just right traditional traditional or religious sites.

So when I took the people over there, uh the next day or so I had to say now

I'm, not so sure about this, but these these are the traditional sites sodom and gomorrah, but I have my doubts

and.

So I just kind of logged it in the back of my head.

Well, we shut down our our excavation in the west bank.

Five years later when things were getting a little bit dicey with the intifada and uh.

Well when we did that the next year I was thinking man, what are we going to do now?

I'm not i'm not excavating this summer.

I I got to figure something out and then my mind went back to sodom and gomorrah.

And so I decided to put in to read a paper at the near east archaeological society that fall.

This was in the winter 2001.

And.

You know, and I won't I won't write the paper.

I won't write the piece on it.

So I forced myself into the situation.

So I put in for a paper.

And so I was scheduled to present in november so so between january and november I had to

write and and research.

And so we did the writing and research and once I had written it spent several months working on that.

And by the way, I didn't care where sodom

was did not matter to me in fact

in entry done back in the mid 90s.

Talking about sod.

I believe that it was in the south because I had never researched it myself in detail.

I just accepted along with so many other people that that's where they were located and so

I didn't really care other than I

had to find out where it

is to the actual southern

location.

I uh, the research came out

wonderful thing to do it because I went back and I analyzed from the hebrew

text primary sources in the book of genesis Relative to

the location of sodom and I did it fresh.

I did it without researching anything or anybody else.

I went straight and completely from the biblical on that

I came up with

because I knew the geography there.

I've been studying the geography and traveling and walking the geography of the holy land for 20 years.

And.

I knew it.

Well geography and I.

I had a map of sodom and gomorrah admins ebouim where they were on the trade routes.

Where they should be according to the biblical text.

And then we had to get on the plane and go over there and look at it on the ground.

And.

Because what I was seeing in in the bible maps and the archaeological maps published in europe.

Location it was nobody had anything

on that side of the river.

They had jericho on the west side of the river north of the dead sea.

On the east side of the river north of the dead sea.

They had nothing.

And I thought that was kind of bizarre because that's where sodom and gomorrah admins.

A whole civilization should have been there, but nobody ever had anything on the map.

That was a little concerning to me or archaeologists or no

bible scholar had ever.

Put a single dot with a name on it on that side of the river and.

So when we got to jordan we started.

We went to the library and acorn amman and the department of antiquities and we started researching reports and

survey reports and all of a sudden.

Within two days we had 14 major archaeological sites on our hands.

Exactly where the bible says sodom and gomorrah should be wow, and it and it was pretty easy to find

which one should be sodom because Uh, if I just

can pages of research here.

The bible is the largest city.

On the east side of the jordan river just north of the dead sea.

In the bronze age.

I mean those are the sort of the nuts and bolts of it.

And you remember that when lot and abraham were hanging out at bethel and eye

From the negev and they worked their way back up to bethel and eye which is about 10

miles North of jerusalem and about 14 miles west north West northwest of jericho.

They were standing there north of the dead sea up on the high scarp overlooking the jordan valley.

And it said lot lifted up his eyes and saw the whole circle or the kikar of the jordan.

Kikar Is translated plane, but it's really not the word plane.

It's the word for he looked over and saw that the whole circle or

plane or kikar of the jordan was well watered.

Uh, and it says from there.

He traveled eastward From bethel and eye and pitched his tent as far as sodom on the other side of

the kikar and so we conclude based on Several analyses of the text that

sodom was the largest was the anchor city of a city state.

On the east side of the jordan river north of the dead sea directly east of bethel and eye

because that's the direction lot traveled to get to sodom.

And.

Nobody ever had anything there.

Nobody but or except let me say.

Most of the 19th century explorer scholars and I subsequently later went back and looked at

that.

They had it in the right place because I found out that many of them did exactly the same analysis that I did

of genesis 13 1 through 12 in particular.

And they put sodom in the same place and I began to look at maps from the 1870s and 1880s

from explorer scholars like condor and wilson.

And.

And thompson and others.

Who spent literally careers in the holy land?

Following the biblical geography.

They actually put it in the right place.

And.

That was amazing to me, but I had never seen that until after I'd done my research, but it was a nice confirmation.

What I did was I I we took this blank map.

Or we took this map to jordan that we had drawn from the biblical text.

And these other maps from other publications that had just a blank there.

We took it to jordan and all of a sudden we began to fill it in with real cities.

And it turns out That the largest and as I said the bible's clear

the largest city on the eastern Jordan disc north of the dead sea

is sodom.

By the way, that's the only Set of cities.

Sodom gomorrah and the associated towns are the only Sites listed in the bible

in that location.

Isn't that amazing?

Oh, yeah.

Uh, no other cities and towns are listed there now.

Moses and joshua found abel shatim, but it's just a place not a town or city.

Uh abel shatim and bet yeshimoth and so on.

But specifically as cities the only cities the bible mentions as being on the eastern jordan disc

north of the dead sea east of the jordan river.

Are sodom and gomorrah and the other associated cities?

So when we got there and looked on the ground and began to go from archaeological site to archaeological site.

Not only did we have now too many sites to look at we had at least 14 archaeological sites.

From the that did that had in the bronze age, but we also ran into

one particular one that was Listed in the surveys as the largest archaeological

site in the jordan valley period.

And in that so in that 60 mile or so stretch of the

jordan valley and

when I saw it I saw how big it was.

But we didn't realize how huge the thing was until we actually started to excavate it a few years

later.

Um.

Let me give let me give people some examples.

In fact, why don't you give the examples right after we return from our first station break?

We'll we'll do that.

And if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own for dr Stephen collins again, our email address is chris arnzen

at gmail .com.

Chris arnzen at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back with archaeologist.

Dr. Stephen collins.

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Welcome back.

This is chris arnson.

If you just tuned us in our guest today for the full two hours is archaeologist.

Dr. Stephen collins.

We are discussing his book discovering the city of sodom.

The fascinating true account of the discovery of the old testament's most infamous city.

If you'd like to join us on the air our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chris arnson at gmail .com.

We do have some of you waiting patiently to have your questions asked and we will get to you as soon as possible.

But for those of you unfamiliar with these Cities in the old testament. They are most well known

for being destroyed by fire by god for their homosexuality and

also for their Greed gluttony and lack of compassion towards the poor

uh, it seems that uh, there's a certain group of people that likes to forget one aspect of that destruction

and some of our more conservative bible -believing christians like to forget about the other reasons

outside of homosexuality while the cities were destroyed but uh, they they were uh

Multifaceted reasons and they were all involving the rebellion of wicked men and of course

Lot and his family were delivered by angels from the city, but unfortunately Lot's wife

turned to look back at the city in flames and she was turned into a pillar of salt.

But uh, our guest today is convinced that he has found the actual location of

sodom and you were discussing one of the major sites.

That you discovered that was leading you closer to the actual location.

Exactly.

Um.

Those particular verses Constitute the only passage in the bible specifically written by

the the author to take us to the location of sodom.

Okay, great.

There are no other.

This is the geographical map to the location of sodom.

All of the passages have to fall under this particular passage when we're interpreting the text

of the location of these cities.

So that being said.

Um.

The bible was is very clear that the largest river

during the time of abraham and so Logically

if you wanted to find sodom you would go to that location north of the dead sea east of the jordan river

Across from jericho.

And you would go to that location and look for the largest bronze age city in that area.

Middle bronze age, by the way, not late bronze age.

That would be the time of moses, but Middle bronze age, which would be the time of abraham.

It's easy enough and in fact called at all because

When we found tal el hamam, which is the local site in the southern

jordan in the jordan valley.

We now know it.

In addition to that we now know it as the largest continuously occupied bronze age

city in the southern levant.

How's that there is no larger continuously occupied city

In the bronze age in either israel or georgia.

Wow, let me give you some size compare muslim in the middle

bronze in the middle bronze

two period to

10 acres.

Maybe 11 acres hamam is 62 acres

inside the city wall.

With a lot of the city outside the city wall up to 100 or more acres.

Now that's incredible continuously occupied.

From the chalcolithic period that is the copper stone age all the way through until its destruction in the

middle bronze age.

It was a continuously occupied thriving city For almost

3 000 years.

It's amazing.

Uh the history of this city, which by the way Is why it is now known our excavation

of sodom is now known as one of the most important archaeological Components of understanding

the entire uh history of

levant.

And which is why I now routinely get asked to come major conferences.

I was just Uh invited to come uh present at uh recently At the

international congress on the archaeology of the ancient near east and vienna austria.

Wow.

So, uh, I just did that and um Archaeologically not even

considering the biblical Archaeologically tal amam is now considered one of

the most important archaeological discoveries of recent times.

And because it's answering a lot of questions About the period and it is the anchor

city.

Isn't it interesting to think of the sodom in the bible as being the anchor city for for

the entire region?

Yes for for the entire bronze age.

Yes.

Nothing else can claim that in fact When you realize that jerusalem did not even exist

between 2500 bc and about 1900 or 1850 bc didn't exist was not

occupied.

Nobody was there.

Uh.

Yet sodom itself was occupied all during that period.

Even even at the collapse when all the other cities in the in the near east collapsed around 2500

bc Due to a major climate change.

Sodom weird like egypt

according and hence the gordon river and hence the reason why god was

so angry at their greed.

And lack of compassion to the poor because they obviously were people who were very affluent and enjoying life.

They had watched the other early

bronze age

crowd of the world.

It was

wealthy.

16.

You get it.

You get from god's mouth to our ear the reason why god destroyed sodom.

Wealthy

testable things in my side.

Therefore. I destroyed you.

And we know from other for other reasons in areas that that those detestable things involved homosexuality.

Yeah, uh interesting one.

Let's let's grab that down down the road here.

Yes a little bit I'll just talk about that because there's some really interesting things going on that we now know

archaeologically.

That we can confirm.

Yes, that um was uh

was.

Rather dramatic in that regard.

Yeah, remember your uh, one of the uh documentaries I saw on television.

You were indicating that and showing some of the artifacts you found.

Yeah, it's and I think it continues to be confirmed.

There's a there's a connection.

To the minoan civilization on crete.

Yes.

And the pederasty.

That's a that's a that's an interesting link.

Yes.

And uh, well, you know, we might as well take a couple of questions if you don't mind from our listeners.

I'm up for that.

We have shane in hoover, alabama.

He asks why do we hear so much about sodom?

But we tend that we tend to forget about gamara.

Where is that city?

Has it been found too?

Uh, the answer is we believe uh, yes.

Sodom, of course is sort of that no -brainer one because it's so big.

It's 10 or 15 times bigger than any other city in the region so.

Uh.

The dominance of sodom was pretty easy to identify on the ground.

Geographically and archaeologically.

Gamara though Uh is a site we believe called tel kafra kafrine.

Which is a 20 minute walk just a little over a kilometer.

Uh to the northwest of talham on the set on the ancient trade route as you go

north sodom was The southernmost city of that group because the bible always lists

in south to north order.

As you would come up from egypt as moses would have Encountered him or abraham would have encountered them coming up from

egypt to the north in the transjordan.

So southern most as you move north on that same, uh trade route.

You'd come to gamora and then you move further north you come to adma and then

it's the zeboim.

Which is plural by the way, which means you have two little we found that as well.

We call them on the big

then

you go one kilometer to the north and you hit

gamora and uh.

Then you go six kilometers to the northeast you come to talani marine.

Which is uh another site of the same occupational profile destroyed in the middle bronze age.

By a great catastrophe and then just one kilometer from there you get uh, the

zeboim.

Zeboim means the little gazelles the little twin gazelles and and that live up in the rocks at the edge of the kikar.

And that's where they are right on the edge of the kikar as you begin to mount up into the hills.

Headed right there exactly where the bible says they should be so not only are they did we

find them?

But we found them in exactly the order that you would predict from the biblical text moving up moving up from the south

to the north Sodom being the great anchor city and moving to the north.

We find the others in two exact

Configurations two doublets.

We might say Sodom gamora adma zeboim in two separate doublets.

Separated by about six kilometers and each each one of the doublets, uh, only being about a kilometer apart.

So it's it's so amazing.

That you look at this archaeological colleagues now is you

guys have ignored seriously regarding the cities of the plain.

And therefore you have nothing on your map.

You didn't pay attention to the area,

but we did.

And we found populated by one of the

greatest civilizations ever to rise in that part of the world.

And it existed there for almost 3 000 years and it was instantly snuffed out by

by by a cosmic

Airburst that

particular air

persisted on that piece of real estate for the next

700 years pretty dramatic.

Yeah, I mean what in our modern, uh.

Understanding of those kinds of events could have scientifically caused a

catastrophe of that magnitude.

Would it be something like an atomic bomb?

Um pictures on this around the country around the world

all the time.

And.

Invariably, I get people running away saying If I if I mention nuclear

right that that features in excess of a nuclear

explosion people go away saying Oh, dr. Collins is saying that that Sodom and gomorrah

was were destroyed by nuclear bombs.

I mean literally they do that and it drives me crazy and they they get all over the internet with that.

Well, we there are two Analogous analogous events

on the internet or another source of

scientific sources.

Lots of this published in journals like

science

and in 1908 a

meteoritic Explosion

did 2 500 square kilometers of of siberian forest.

Wow.

Just toasted it.

Um.

An airburst or a meteoritic airbird

cosmic Explosion what it is is a a

meteoritic object an asteroid fragment or a Comet fragment that

comes into the atmosphere That is large enough To create

enough heat in its entry But not large enough to strike

all of all of the

weight

of the husk

of siberia 1908.

And we're talking about temperatures in excess of 15 to 20 000 degrees fahrenheit for a for a

microsecond lay waste everything, uh within

the sphere of its impact.

And.

That's what happened in to go to 1908.

Now.

What happened?

What caused that in 1908?

Uh, it was just uh.

It ranges from asteroid fragment

the size of a football

dirty ice ball Fragment that came in And exploded because no fragments of

it just destroys everything on the ground.

The second one of these which was interesting because it came out This this happened in the

same

In 2013.

Hey scott latane.

Does simon and schuster have connections or what?

Because because in 2013 Streaking through the air over chelyabinsk,

russia Was another cosmic error.

Now, this one was small enough where it did not Impact anything on the

ground particularly broke a lot of windows.

Um.

People Were injured by shattered glass things like that.

There were some there was some architectural damage across

but this thing exploded in the air.

The fireball was seen by hundreds and hundreds of Of cameras and

dash cam and a few people got it on their self

drinking across the sky.

Exploding.

It exploded with a force 10 times greater than the

hiroshima atomic bomb.

Wow.

But it did so high enough over the ground where all all it did was a lot

of windows.

A few people had had minor sort of second degree sort of sunburn on their

skin, but uh, it was uh.

It was a significant thing because even though it was smaller than tunguska didn't didn't destroy anything

massively on the ground.

Uh, it was a great demonstration of what an airburst event was all about and we had just written it in the book.

And it was just then Uh being published.

Wow.

And so it gave people sort of a connection to be able to see it.

You can go on look up the chelyabinsk.

Don't ask me to spell it.

You can look up the chelyabinsk uh airburst event and literally see.

All coming in and exploding now.

What's interesting is had chelyabinsk had the chelyabinsk, uh, meteoritic explosion.

Been the tunguska explosion in 1908.

Hundreds of thousands if not millions of people and the whole air so

lucky for them fairly small object.

Maybe the you know size of a house it explodes

with.

When this stuff comes in.

It's moving.

At depending upon whether it's an asteroid asteroids kind of float in at six seven eight thousand miles an hour.

You know, they're really moving fairly slow, but they still burn up uh comets, however comet

fragments.

Come in at about 70 000 miles.

So the time from the time they hit the upper atmosphere to the time that they would impact or explode.

It's just a question of a second.

So.

Because that little atmosphere that it comes through thin envelope.

Compared to the size of the earth and the speed of these things is incredible.

Well.

What's interesting is magical evidence on the ground at tal hamam in the

ash layer in the destruction layer and across the whole area the fact that civilization Was

wiped out there Snuffed out in an instant and didn't return.

Uh, they couldn't even do agriculture there for 700 years because the

the Explosion so denuded and destroyed that uh,

700 years for the for the area.

Again, it takes several several hundred years.

And uh, it's just an amazing thing to look at but we now have evidence.

Not only of the

airburst

suspect because of the because of the destruction pattern across the city.

That it actually came in shallow in the atmosphere from the southwest

and uh, so all of this is

being in secular journals because

Scientists that are interested in airburst events are now very very interested in the phenomenon that destroyed

this particular Civilization because it will literally be the only time that such an airburst cosmic

airburst event Has come in over a highly populated area.

Wow.

And they're they're really interested in that and so this is being i'm sure by unbelievers being.

Uh.

Regulated to just a coincidence that this was the biblical site.

You know exactly chris.

What I normally tell people is that that.

By the time this is all said and done Sort of wraps around and and

all all is published over the next few years.

But even some of it now in as it's known, you know in the scientific community That hasn't been

published, but just what's being known.

Um.

No doubt that these cities

the time in the right right

time.

The right place with all the right stuff as the bible describes the cities of the plain sodom and gomorrah

not only that.

And they were destroyed by a cosmic airburst explosion literally fire and burning

stone, by the way.

The phrase in the bible, uh that's translated or the word that's translated

Brimstone really should

circadian route.

And by the way, you go back to that part that original story was not ever

Hebrew as of the bible now is from the iron age.

It's a much later development.

These texts were copied and copied and copied.

Uh, and the text was linguistically Contemporized as it moves

forward in time because language changes over time.

So it has to be kept up to to put it in the language.

The contemporary language so that people can read it, but in abraham's time.

What was the lingua franca?

What was the spoken language?

What would these stories in abraham's time originally have been recorded in?

Well, it would have been akkadian.

Akkadian.

And in akkadian that particular word gopreet actually means burning stone.

Wow.

And by the way, uh when the quran, uh picks up on the story.

The the sodom gomorrah stories found the quran 15 times.

But it talks about the the uh cities being destroyed by burning stones.

Thrown by god out of the heavens to destroy this the evil city.

And so that story coming it's being lifted out of the bible it's being

lifted out of the ancient hebrew and so, um talking

about God destroyed and go to genesis 19 that god fire

and burning stones to

come out.

As.

Factual in other words.

We do have the cities.

We do have the destruction.

These are just reality scientific facts of a civilization that was snuffed out in an instant by

cosmic airbursts.

They're all non -believing community.

Perfect.

It's a coincidence.

In other words, there was a great cosmic impact that occurred.

And local people and eventually israelites got a hold of it, but local people picked up on the idea and

uh wrote stories around it.

That these great cities were destroyed and they probably blamed it up blamed it on their own deities.

And the israelites came in and picked up on the story and attributed this destruction of the cities of the plane to yahweh

and so uh, I say If the

event happened, of course people would would pick up on it and may even record it.

And that would find its way into the bible.

So that's that by the way, that's the minimal Belief that you could hold based on the science.

Yeah.

We have to go to another break if they existed.

If they were they were destroyed.

On the other side, I

believe the bible is the word of god and the good reasons to believe that.

Then you say ah, this is not a mere coincidence or an event that happened in

history.

Yeah, this is where we have to pick up when we return.

And if you'd like to join us on the air with a question for dr. Stephen collins.

We do still have some of you waiting and I thank you for your patience.

But if you'd like to join them with a question of your own on the air.

Our email address is chris arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris arnzen at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back with archaeologist Dr. Stephen collins discoverer of the city

of sodom.

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Welcome back.

This is chris arns.

And if you just tuned us in our guest today for the full two hours with one hour to go is archaeologist. Dr

Stephen collins who is also the dean Over at trinity

southwest university in albuquerque, new mexico.

The dean of archaeology and biblical history that is.

And if you'd like to join us on the air with a question for dr Collins our email address is

chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

And we are discussing his book discovering the city of sodom the fascinating true account Of the

discovery of the old testament's most infamous city published by simon and schuster.

And before the break you were comparing a liberal skeptic's reaction to the

discovery of this.

Uh.

This uh geological evidence basically of the major catastrophe there

in the same site where sodom and gomorrah exists.

And.

Or existed I should say and how a biblical bible -believing christian Would would

react to this.

Yes you could have two views of this

talking about is the fact that The cities exist the bible

predicts east of the dead sea those

cities actually do exist.

They exist in the exact Configuration that the bible suggests so that the cities in fact

are there.

They are there in the right time frame that the bible describes on the other

hand Destruction of those cities that now we

are now confirming scientifically.

These cities were snuffed out By a cosmic airburst event that exploded over the

area In the time of abraham and wiped out

on that particular real estate for Almost 3 000

years consistently without a break.

They when nobody else went down Everybody else in the area went down

a few hundred years earlier at the end of the early bronze age.

They thrived When civilization came back Everybody

continued to live on into the late bronzer cities in a very

specific targeted area destroyed

instantly and Nothing grew there hardly or or or lived there and

certainly no towns or villages for the next 700 years.

All of that.

Those are all archaeological facts.

We we have the cities we have the termination in the right place.

Uh in the bronze age as the bible describes and we have the airburst event that destroyed them.

All of that's confirmable in the archaeological record.

Um, is this a coincidence?

Is this an etiological legend or a legend that grew up around?

A simple cosmic destruction of a location or as the bible describes.

Is this?

The an act of

god for their demise because of their rebellion.

And so what we say is take the evidence and put it on your own personal believable meter.

And.

You know, uh from from a biblical point of view.

Uh, I trust the bible for a lot of different reasons.

Amen.

By the way, by the way, there are a couple of views of inerrancy called deductive

inerrancy and there's inductive inerrancy.

Most christians believe in Deductive inerrancy in other words.

There's some sort of doctrine of inerrancy where I have to believe that the bible is inerrant.

No matter what.

Because the bible the bible says it's inerrant.

So therefore I have to believe it's inerrant or i'm not a i'm not a good believer.

Um, that's that's what kind of how most people are.

I don't take that.

I find the bible inerrant because I find after 30 or 40 years.

Well 40 or 45 years now studying the bible intensely.

As a historian as an archaeologist I find no errors in it inductive inerrancy.

I believe the bible is inerrant because I can't find any errors in it.

And so I don't need a theological inerrancy.

It may exist just as well.

That's not very satisfying that that doesn't hold up well in an argument.

The mormons say the same thing about the book of mormon.

We believe the book of mormon everything in the book of mormon is true.

Whatever contradicts the book of mormon is from the devil.

You can't take that view with the bible.

Because the bible is a historical book.

It's of history.

And secondarily true to

begin with if you can't trust the the tangible part of the bible.

How can you trust the spiritual part of the bible?

Yes, well at some point I hope to have a debate between presuppositionalists and Evidentialists on

my program about those kind of things that uh seem to uh still.

Uh cause our brothers in christ to grapple over differences there.

So anyway, I mean that's that's where we stand right now now the excavation is going to continue to go on.

Perhaps for for many years to come.

We've been at it for 12 years.

We just finished our 11th season.

We're entering our 12th season right now.

We're prepping for it.

We'll be back in the field in january february and march.

Um.

A lot of excavation think of very famous excavation.

So we've been at this now.

Uh excavating for for 11 years and going into our 12th season.

Yeah, when I first interviewed you this was like in its infancy and you hadn't even written the book yet.

Yeah and uh.

A lot of books a lot of you know, now we we have our first uh, uh Technical volume of tal al -hammam

excavations that came out and that's a multi -volume series that'll eventually be published but we've got our first volume out

now published by eisenbrauns and and uh.

That's very nice because you know, it's always on the table at asor and uh, you know other professional meetings and

and uh.

People are requesting it now.

Archaeologists requesting copies of our publications.

Right, so it's very very important that we do that.

It just can't be done from a biblical side.

It has to be done from a scientific side as well, right?

We do have.

Oh by the way, I forgot to mention to I think I forget to forgot to mention to our listener in hoover alabama

shane.

You are getting a brand new free copy Of discovering the city of sodom

by dr. Stephen collins and dr. Latane c scott Shipped to you if you give us

your mailing address.

As our way of saying thanks for you submitting a question today, and that's compliments of

Not only our guest dr. Stephen collins, but also it will be shipped to you by our friends at cumberland valley bible book service

cv bbs .com.

Cv for cumberland valley bbs for biblebookservice .com who ship out all of our winners

free bibles and books For submitting questions during our broadcast and we thank todd and patty jennings over at

cv bbs .com for being faithful supporters Of iron sharpens iron we have.

Uh, jeff in clinton township, michigan.

Who says I purchased an archaeology study bible a few years back.

And it seemed as though many of the articles and notes were aimed at causing me to question and at worst

doubt Biblical truth.

I've since tossed it out.

Would you recommend a similar resource for lay people produced by those who uphold the

inerrancy of scripture?

I would say the answer to that question is Get the archaeological study

bible published by zondervan.

Okay.

And the archaeological study bible by zondervan publishing.

Uh, however, I will.

Uh, I.

Personally.

Well, that's why I was.

I was not going to reveal who it was, but he threw out the zondervan.

Bible.

Oh, okay.

Um.

Yeah.

Let me say this world of archaeology when it comes to the bible.

The world of archaeology is extremely Anti -bible and dismissive of biblical.

I can't think of a single israeli archaeologist who believes that Abraham isaac jacob joseph moses and

joshua were real people.

Well, maybe one and

that that's just a fact.

My my discipline are archaeology near eastern archaeology.

So in other words the discipline is tough.

And and because.

Because archaeological evidence when you make discoveries.

Four or five different

two or three of them might support the bible two or three of them may not support the bible.

If you don't support the bible in your in your own worldview, then you're going to pick the interpretations That

don't support the bible and you're going and you're not going to talk about the others.

And and on the bible side We'll generally show the ones that do support the bible and we won't talk about

the others.

Yeah, and so whatever your world view is whatever your uh take on the bible is.

You can pick in archaeology.

You can pick and choose the interpretations of the evidence.

That flow with your own point of view.

And so you have to realize that and here's the other thing.

Never be afraid of people who who disagree with you.

I have maintained over the years a very close working relationship with with my

atheistic Anti -bible colleagues.

That's why they invite me to come and present About talamam and in in all the various professional

venues.

Why.

Because their science is is good science.

Their their data collection is good.

I may not agree with their interpretations of their data they may not Agree with the

interpretations of my data.

But they also because i'm willing to be in the community and do good science.

They recognize that I do good science that our team are great excavators and that we're careful.

And that we we follow the right protocols of archaeology now.

Our evidence as I stated earlier, you know, we have very specific evidence on on sodom and the destruction of

sodom.

They can't deny That archaeological evidence and they don't deny that archaeological evidence.

They will deny.

However that the biblical story Is the reason for it.

And so i'm assuming it's two different points of view.

Mm -hmm.

And so we we can't we can't be dismissive uh categorically of I can't run

away and never talk to those people again because some of the data that they find that they excavate.

And even though they are uncomfortably might admit it or or maybe even never admit it.

Fact is I can use the data that they excavate in support of the bible

two different points of the paradigm.

They're anti -bible Atheistic paradigm and I have mine.

And my interpretive framework is just as good as theirs.

And they they realize it and so they come to me and we can go face to face.

And I can say to them and they can say to me I don't agree with your theology or lack

thereof world view.

I may not agree with your interpretations of that science.

I know that we can be on an equal footing on the side on the science.

So it's not my job To convince the anti -bible archaeologists that they're

wrong.

My job is to convince the rest of the world and that's a

big they're not going to ever admit it.

I mean some maybe some miracle of god in their life or something like that.

But short of that they are never going to look at my evidence.

They're never going to look at all the arguments that I can put forth in favor of biblical credibility.

They're never going to look at that and and decide to respect the bible.

But I can take that same evidence and show the world.

And show skeptics who are not archaeologists who have a clearer mind who don't have a they don't have a dog in

that fight necessarily.

And I can show them that the bible is credible and that when done correctly

and reasonably archaeology.

So it's very clear that you can fill a void that appears to be

In need to be filled because uh the best Archaeological study bible you could

think of is one that you even admitted had a lot of serious flaws in it.

Yeah, I did, you know.

Inexcusable inexcusable flaws, by the way.

Um.

I have no idea why they didn't run particular text

me or surgical community.

I don't know why they didn't do that.

Uh, not only what could it have been a good volume

to do what they did with it.

Well, perhaps anyway.

I didn't.

On on the plus side.

I didn't find it all that bad

that information.

Because frankly I disagree with most of my evangelical colleagues on on things like the pharaoh the exodus.

I disagree with them.

Many of them some of them on the far right disagree with me on the location of sodom.

Now that that continues to puzzle me when you.

You use the bible as your your blueprint.

That doesn't even seem to make sense.

The far right would object.

I don't I don't understand.

The people that still don't accept our side of sodom it has all the earmarks of sodom.

The only thing that could be better Than what we've got at this point is a great big lit neon sign

From the bronzes that says welcome to sod.

You know.

That would be really really cool.

I'd love to find that but uh happening.

I mean we have all the evidence we have the city.

Uh, we have every feature of

obstruction.

That massive not not only its destruction, but the entire region the entire key car the jordan was wiped

out.

And nobody built as much as a village.

It's absolutely Perfect.

It's exactly as the bible describes it.

And it couldn't be any better by the way.

Uh, somebody might ask well, why do you?

Reject the southern sites.

The southern dead sea sites as as sodom.

Let me give you a simple answer that question.

They're every single site in the southern dead sea area that has been identified

potentially as sodom and gomorrah.

It was destroyed in 2500.

Hook that up with biblical sodom.

It's hundreds and hundreds of years before abraham was ever born.

It's categoric by the way.

It's it's not a city.

It is a small fortified, uh town.

It's only about eight or ten acres.

And by the way Tahle hamam in the north exists all during the time that baba dra did so why would lat

Go eastward pass up great the great city.

Uh at tahle hamam and then turn south and go down to some it

would make absolutely no

sense.

But the fact is that city did not exist during the time of abraham.

Neither did any of the other locations down there exist, uh in the time of of abraham.

So They're they're in the wrong place.

They're in the wrong time.

And they don't have the right stuff.

And so three strikes and you're out.

That works and that works in archaeology, too.

By the way, jeff clinton township.

Thank you for the question.

You are also getting a free copy Of discovering the city of sodom by dr. Stephen

collins and dr. Latane c scott compliments of our guest a beautiful hardback edition of

that book.

And it will be shipped out to you by cumberland valley bible book service.

So keep your eyes open for a package from Cvbbs .com.

Thanks a lot. Jeff.

Keep listening to the program and keep spreading the word about iron sharpens iron in in michigan.

We do have Rj in westchester county, new york.

Who says I wonder if you were insulted by the don verdeen movie that came out

last year?

With sam rockwell Portraying a charlatan archaeologist.

That's kind of funny because we were just talking Dr. Collins and I were talking about that movie before we even went on the

air.

And dr. Collins has not seen it.

I've seen half of it.

I haven't seen the whole thing.

But it is uh, it actually relates to something that dr Collins knows is a very

serious problem in the field of archaeology is charlatans in the area of biblical

archaeology, correct.

In the if I could drop some names for you.

They by the way.

They wouldn't win the law and they always threatened to sue me.

But they would never win the lawsuit because they'd never whatever whatever they claimed would never hold up in a court of law.

But the thing is that some of these people are fleecing christian churches.

By speaking there by selling books by doing all these sorts of things.

Passing themselves off as biblical archaeologists, which they are not they are not trained as archaeologists.

They have no background and one of them is uh, uh, he's now deceased.

Uh, we say thank god.

Uh.

No apologies needed brother, you know, he claimed that this particular gentleman by the way, I.

Every time I speak Somebody comes up to me afterward and

see this and they hand me one of his books or one of his videos.

Say what do you think about this?

And my answer is Very simple.

I say listen to me very carefully.

Here's my answer when it comes to archaeology in the bible.

Nothing that this person has ever written said or thought is true.

Now, sometimes they get upset.

Sometimes they yell at me and scream at me.

Sometimes they go storming off.

But the fact of the matter is is that the christian public is terribly gullible when it comes to archaeology.

So if somebody comes to your church claiming to have discovered uh the crossing or

uh, the location of

noah ark of the country,

uh, Uh near jerusalem.

Or any of these kinds of things

sinai and

array.

It's a hoax.

It's nothing but a hoax.

So in other words, even those alleged.

It doesn't fit the bible and of course people are people aren't knowledgeable.

They don't know the geography.

They don't know the archaeology.

And they believe this sort of stuff.

And by the way when I noticed that uh, and by the way There's another group that

are picked up on this deceased individual stuff made better versions of it

and now are still and uh, one of these individuals is even the art

is even now considered the archaeological consultant of one of the The major uh

bible conferences of a very famous christian uh speaker.

Notable speaker and radio host that I could could name.

But uh.

Well, you can name them if you want to.

They're charlatans.

They're charlatans.

And uh, but people just need to watch out for this sort of stuff.

Not now one of the exodus that I think what one of his videos or books is gold of the ex this

stuff.

Now either one of two things is true chris.

Either they they are so naive that they really believe that what they're putting out is true

Ignorant of archaeology and so naive that they would believe

unbelievable to an archaeologist.

Or.

And they say it anyway.

Well, if you're not going to tell us on the air, then you have to tell me we're off the air.

I will tell you off the air.

Okay, I don't mind saying it, but I don't want to get you in trouble.

Oh, you're not going to get me in trouble.

I could care less about that.

Anyway, but you you know, uh, you have these people out there and uh, anytime someone claims to

have uh found noah's ark found the ark of the covenant found the crossing point, uh.

Of the israelites on the red and claims all of those things.

That's pretty amazing, isn't it?

Yeah, let me say this.

They're true archaeologists.

Legitimate archaeologists number one do legitimate archaeology.

They are.

You got to look at what what someone's experience in the field is.

And you need to look at.

Are they members of the professional societies?

Are they peer -reviewed?

Do they interact with other archaeologists?

Do they actually?

You have to look at this.

It's very easy to tell the difference between someone who's who's a working archaeologist and someone

who's a shyster and so.

You just have to be careful and you know listen carefully and Invite dr.

Collins to come to your church.

And do it.

When we do that, we do we do come to churches and we not only talk about sodom but we do.

I'm going to a church in florida soon.

Where.

Because i'd like to uh, let I know a lot and we're going to have an entire weekend of biblical archaeology.

It's going to be wonderful.

Well, I have a lot of pastor friends in florida.

Whereabouts are you going?

Uh, it's in the fort myers area.

Oh, wow.

I know folks from fort myers.

In fact, uh, I interviewed somebody from fort myers a few weeks ago, he's a 9 -11

hero a united states marine who rescued two police officers from underneath the rubble of one of the

world trade centers David karns staff sergeant david karns.

He lives in fort myers.

And uh, he uh is depicted in the movie world trade center starring nicholas cage but uh

I have to ask you because when I was a teenager I picked up the book that absolutely fascinated

me.

I wasn't even a believer at the time.

Or uh, let me put it this way.

I don't believe I was born again at the time.

Noah's ark.

I touched it.

Is that one of the things that you're thinking of or talking about?

Yeah by the way.

There's a single I

didn't like to say that say it that way.

There isn't a single archaeologist.

There isn't a single archaeologist who takes the bible seriously who would not love

it all love that.

It would be it would be archaeological Headlines, it would be fantastic however.

We have to understand that archaeology does not happen.

Real archaeology does not happen unless something can be Measured.

Selected scientific process can be Duly applied

to it of time So that confirmations

can be made of claims about the particular discovery.

So that's what has one

physical noah's ark that has

Entered the true realm of archaeology.

Archaeology should not cannot Be applied to noah's ark.

I think is actually discovered.

It could be measured.

It can be photographed.

It can be published.

It can be peer -reviewed.

It can be criticized.

It can be you know, it can be debated.

And.

There is not one physical thing about noah's ark that is Presently or in the

past for the scientific process.

And so I have never i've read virtually everything out there by the way I have some

colleagues noah's ark research.

They would admit ark is not subject to the scientific process at this point because nothing has ever

been discovered that could be physically excavated.

And that's another area that a lot of hoaxes have been uh, um Ron ron

wyatt who was I guess could be numbered among the charlatan archaeologists.

Claims to have discovered noah's ark.

And I even know some of the scientists the legitimate scientists who were working with him on that who got duped.

Uh, and I called him when I saw one of those videos I knew these guys and I called him and I said what in the world are

you doing?

He said well you know, I kind of got sucked into it and i'm in the video and i've.

You know, i've tried to tell you with my face and my name in it, but they're still showing it

and they still show it Dr. John bomb gardner,

you know, he got even sucked into that.

Well afterwards he admits that.

Yeah, they're they you know, I got caught up in it.

But we were totally seeing what we wanted to see and as a scientist.

It didn't take me but a couple of days to realize what was happening and he bowed out of the whole project so

um good science lasts for years.

It's well analyzed.

It's well studies studied.

It's peer -reviewed.

It's looked so yeah, you know.

You have to be legitimately part of the community.

I hate to be bare of bad news about noah's ark, but it's just a fact.

Do I think noah's ark exists somewhere?

Yeah, I do.

Noah's ark landed on the mountains or urartu which is

about 2 million square miles and uh the territory where

noah's ark could be.

Nobody knows where it is.

And I don't think anybody's found any evidence of it.

That is.

Scientifically valid by the way.

Rj in westchester county new york.

Give us your full mailing address and you have also won.

A free copy of discovering the city of sodom by our guest. Dr. Stephen collins and dr.

Latane c scott.

And uh compliments of dr. Collins.

It'll be shipped out to you by cumberland valley bible book service in the very near future.

So give us your full mailing address.

We have to go to our final break right now.

If you'd like to join us on the air while there's still time I urge you to do it quickly.

Send an email to chris arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris arnzen At gmail .com.

We still have a few people waiting to have their questions asked and we hope to get to everybody.

That we can get to before the program is over if that's possible.

But we look forward to hearing from you and we will be right back.

God willing right after these messages.

So don't go away.

Chris arnzen here and I can't wait to head down to atlanta, georgia, and here's my friend. Dr.

James white to tell you why.

Hi, i'm james white of alpha and omega ministries.

I hope you join me at the g3 conference hosted by pastor. Josh bice and praise mill baptist church at

the georgia international convention center in atlanta January 19th through the 21st in

celebration of the 500th anniversary of the protestant reformation.

I'll be joined by paul washer steve. Lawson d .a. Carson vody balkan conrad and bayway

phil Johnson rosaria butterfield todd friel and a host of other speakers who are dedicated to the pillars

of what g3 stands for gospel grace and glory.

For more details go to g3 conference .com.

That's g3 conference .com.

Thanks, james.

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Welcome back.

This is chris arnds.

And if you just tuned us in for the last 90 minutes or so and the next 20 minutes or so to

come.

Our guest has been and will continue to be.

Dr. Stephen collins biblical archaeologist who discovered the city of sodom

at least he is Very certain that he has and we are discussing his book discovering

the city of sodom.

The fascinating true account of the discovery of the old testament's most infamous city published by simon and schuster.

And uh, I urge you if you Cannot win a book today for free go to

Cvbbs .com cumberland valley bible book service one of our sponsors Cvbbs

.com and order the book through them.

Uh, we do have a listener tony with an eye.

Uh tony in south carolina.

Who says.

I regret that your guests today and others in the past will not name names and warn the brethren.

Which we are commanded to do in scripture if your denouncement of certain teachers can be backed up with scripture and it seems it

can be.

Then please do your part to warn god's people the apostles and especially paul named names.

Well, you did name one name, didn't you?

Yeah, I recall you did.

Yeah, I think I slipped one in there.

Uh, but let me just say anybody that any uh, by the way all of these guys almost all of them

Claim that mount sinai is in arabia at a place called

and.

Anybody that claims that sinai is in arabia at jebel

el -laz that they're amongst our note

that.

And it's pretty easy to spot these these people.

It's pretty easy to spot the legitimate archaeologists as well.

Uh if they're a member of the near east archaeological society, which is the

society of evangelical archaeologists.

Or they're a member of the american schools of oriental research, which is the society

All archaeologists working in the in the middle and near east.

But by the way, tony, uh in south carolina, please Give us your full mailing address because you have also won

a beautiful hard cut hardcover copy of discovering the city of sodom by dr stephen collins

and latain c scott.

And we thank you for your comments and keep spreading the word about our program in south carolina.

Uh.

There are some fascinating relics that uh tie

the site that you discovered to the to a very

believable realm of probability Uh tying it in with the biblical account

of sodom and gomorrah.

And I know that uh, when you give your your lectures in churches, you typically don't bring this

up in front of women and children in the audience, but Uh, you can feel free to discuss this

today and it involves For lack of a better term phallic symbols that you've discovered.

Yeah, we have.

Uh, it's pretty interesting by the way when that particular.

Uh.

Life -size ceramic phallus was uh was uh turned in amongst our other artifacts to

the museum uh in jordan where we store our antiquities was all

being checked in by by one of them, uh, ladies there who's a muslim scholar.

And uh, it was it was interesting to see my jordanian colleagues pass that one around her

completely bypass.

I just thought that was an interesting moment.

So we shall we say signal artifacts from from tal al -hammam.

Uh that either stylistically.

Or structurally that is via archetype.

Our site minoan culture on crete

from the bronze age.

From the early and middle bronze age.

And.

That particular thing connects us

sexual culture of minoan crete as well in that particular

society.

It was uh, it was customary in the up in the upbringing of young boys.

That a boy when he became 12 years old was taken from his mother by

a a a ritual.

Taken and given into the custody of a 22 year old male.

Raised him together for the next eight years

this young Adolescent boy to

all the features of manhood of that particular culture.

Which included learning how to

fight cultural?

understanding of high society.

And.

Also to be introduced to the the world of human sexuality

through uh initially in this first eight years, uh.

With a with a male an alden erasmus an older male

partner this pederasty as it's commonly called it's called pederasty.

Yeah, I mean if you look up pederasty in the dictionary, you're going to get uh, kind of a

trite little description, but culturally uh, this was how

ancient people the mediterranean region particularly in

Crete the mycenaeans and greek the athenians the spartans.

This was how this was how it was done throughout ancient cultures even the samurai culture of

Methodology even the romans and and that's why you had so much

with young male sort of man boy homosexuality and in the roman world.

Was because this is how uh men were raised into the into the male world into the military.

And by the way, these practices still go on Uh throughout the middle east today.

Well, I I have actually seen very convincing evidence that uh, The brown shirts of the nazi

party were very very much involved in that including their leader ernst rome who?

Uh was eventually assassinated by hitler, but uh, it is even well Very readily acknowledged in the

homosexual community that ernst rome was a promiscuous pederast and homosexual.

Yeah.

And uh, well anyway the the biblical connection I mean it's it's it's pretty easy to see this

connection in the archaeological record between tall imam.

Or sodom and the minoan culture.

And what's interesting about it is, uh, the biblical connection comes this way.

Everybody remembers the story.

If you remember the story of sodom,

that's not

the name of it.

But he's dealing with that and he's he's a basically one out of seven coming more or less.

Ha ha ha.

Kind of interesting but um.

It is that's why I say if people have read the story of sodom and gomorrah Which

some may not have even if they're christians.

Um in there it talks about the angels or the messengers

from abraham's tent.

Remember they came down.

And uh, abraham was parked up near hebron and they came down towards sodom And gomorrah to warn lot and to take

lot and his family out of the city before this destruction would occur.

And as soon as they were taken in they were uh said you're

going to go to my house.

And they say no we're going to spend the night here In in the square in the in the public

town square and lot said no you're not Not in this town.

You're coming with me.

And so he takes them to his house and it says while they were at his he said the

men from all over the city including the older men and the younger men Came to

the house and I won't say demanded.

I will say made a made a cultural traditional request for these

young men to be brought out.

And.

Obviously brought into a pederastic relationship with the men of the city of sodom.

Now this was typically how this pederastic relationship on the

island of crete was inaugurated by a ritual.

Kidnapping in other words done by permission.

And lot said no.

No, no, that's not going to happen this time around.

And of course they got upset.

And they tried to break into the house and the angels blinded them and so on and so the story goes.

But that particular thing when we first noticed that

it was amazing to me.

Uh, you're you're reading that and all of a sudden you have this especially if you've studied cretan the cretan

culture.

All of a sudden you have this connection and you go.

Wow.

Now I begin to understand what was going on there in the city of sodom why they came for these uh,.

And I always say probably handsome young men in my mind, I

just don't think.

I can't imagine ugly angels, but I don't know.

Ernest borgnine with wings is an image that pops.

Kind of get this idea that they're, you know, rather a handsome attractive individuals but um.

Evidently the men of the city when these guys walked in when these messengers walked in.

They caught the eye of the men of sodom young and old so they

they wanted to bring sort of.

And sort of this was sort of the welcome wagon of the city, you know come and this is how we welcome our

Our male visitors.

We we invite you to uh come be a part of what we do.

And uh, by the way, let me say clearly here.

That that was not the reason that instance was not the reason god destroyed sodom.

Was targeted for destruction before the angels ever showed up so Why was

god targeting sodom and gomorrah?

Well, you know, ezekiel 16 lists a whole bunch of things number one.

All of those things are listed and and homosexuality is never

listed as as one of the reasons why?

Just that they did terrible.

They did sort of disgusting things in my sight god says.

And uh, but what we what we now know and I think we can clarify this.

Was that?

The pederasty.

The pederastic cult sodom and gomorrah.

Was the homosexuality if god would have destroyed sodom and gomorrah

merely for homosexuality.

He would have had to destroy the entire You know old world.

You know, he would have to toast everything from from from europe to japan uh simply

because.

That sort of thing was going on in every culture.

There's never been a culture that that that wasn't.

And so so the the commentary there's really not on homosexuality.

Garden variety homosexuality as we think of it it was.

It was if anything a commentary on

cultural institution.

Because these boys were brought into this thing not by their not by their own will.

But by the will of the culture.

In other words ghouls are not homosexuals that they had to enter

manhood through this through this means

and to the

minoan society and they and they spoke against it.

And.

But it remained sort of the dominant way that things were done.

In other words, there was an institutional a cultural institutional acceptance

of it.

That was forced on everyone.

And now this is not to lessen the testable that was detestable to god.

That this is not to lessen the severity of the sin of homosexuality.

This is no no, no, not not.

No, not in the least.

Uh, but what was going on at sodom was

simply that in fact, we.

It was as if you and I or our sons Uh were forced into that

practice, right?

Regardless it's almost uh, well not even almost.

It's really rape in a sense.

Yeah, I mean in a sense.

Yeah, it's uh, it's literally making into making into the norm

and um.

The it's interesting that uh, barry lynn who is a Notorious liberal activist

president of americans united for separation of church and state.

He debated A very good friend of mine, dr James r white of alpha and omega ministries on whether or not

homosexuality was compatible with biblical christianity and he was trying to make the point that

uh that will they these men in sodom and gomorrah could not have been homosexuals because lot

offered his daughters to them, but The fact of the matter is they refused his offer.

They weren't satisfied with his offer.

In fact in fact in in in.

Typically in minnowan, uh, what would happen is um at the

end of that, uh eight -year relationship.

They would have a two -year cooling off period continue in that relationship

maybe for life.

Or they would have the option to to marry and have children to marry a woman and have children.

And many opted to go that direction.

It was just something that was culturally there for for for

everyone.

It was no, uh, it was no option to it.

And uh as a result, uh, it just it's part of the whole picture.

So I can't so we can't say that god destroyed Sodom and gomorrah specifically for that reason.

However, it is certainly part of the overall cultural picture of sodom.

In which not only did they do that, but by the way on creed uh orphans.

And widows would be typically placed into prostitution for the use of the of the population.

We have so and so if this was also happening at sodom, this was another part of the culture

in other words.

Everything about the culture sexually was wrong.

We have time for one brief question from norseman.

I believe that's how you pronounce it.

In suffolk county long island, new york.

He wants to know.

Do you have any idea what the men in sodom were doing with these

sculptures of penises.

Were these Objects of worship or were they used as sexual devices or just decorations?

Form follows function in archaeology.

So, uh, we can imagine a lot of things.

Um, but probably there were parts of.

Like bric -a -brac or statues.

Yeah.

That had something to do with the you know with the sexual right Context of the place,

right?

Well, if you could just in a minute just summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners brother.

Well number one, uh, the discovery of sodom reinforces the idea.

It next to when it's done that way.

Uh, it it remains historical geographical document we have preserved

from the ancient world.

But it's not just that the bible is true historically which after all

my 45 years of uh research Demonstrates to me if the bible is

trustworthy historically.

It is also trustworthy um when it talks about the resurrection of jesus christ, uh.

The projection of god into three -dimensional history god himself coming as human flesh.

Uh.

If the resurrection means that jesus christ is who he claims to be that is god in the flesh then

he knows All the answers to everything and he has the he has the answer to our lives and

and to to the subject of death of sin and death.

And by his crucifixion and resurrection from the dead.

He declares that we could have eternal life by our faith in him.

That becomes the bottom line.

Uh, jesus has a claim on my life your life everybody's life.

And.

The historicity of the bible reaffirms that to me day after day after day.

That these stories are not myths and legends.

And that even the resurrection of jesus from the dead the greatest miracle ever.

And and we're out of time right there.

I'm, sorry.

And uh, the website that you can learn more about.

Dr Collins is trinity southwest.

Dot com trinity southwest .com.

I look forward to having you back on the program very soon.

Dr. Collins.

Enjoyed it chris.

Thanks for having me and I want everybody to always remember for the rest of your lives that jesus christ is a far greater savior

Than you are a sinner.