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Dan and Rob continue their discussion on Postmillennialism.
Welcome to the truth and love podcast. Thank you for joining us. This is the 1st of 2023. Stick around we're going to continue to talk about post millennialism the dating of Revelation and we're going to hit it off with a couple topics first Corinthians 3 and 6 our body is the temple of God and Possibly being slain in the spirit.
We'll see how how far we can get into these things, but stick with us. Welcome back. Thank you for joining the to the love podcast. It's so good to be here with you Dan. How you doing? Good, how you doing?
I'm doing good. How was Christmas? I.
Don't remember It went by so fast. It was good. I mean we were sick on Christmas Day. Like we had been really excited. We're all hyped up about having Lords Day and Christmas Day all on the same the same day.
You know go and have just a fantastic time of being with the being with the Saints on the Lord's Day on Christmas Day and. Then of course like three out of our four kids were sick. So and one of them is brand-new.
Wanna continue.
Congratulations. How's that little one doing? Oh, she's doing great. She doesn't know what day and night is but she's doing. All right, she'll sleep most the day and then try to stay up all night.
Good deal. Good deal. Well before we move any further along. This is going to actually be our first commercial then. These are not these are not paid Advertisements. These are this is a free advertisement because we believe in the unity of the body of Christ supporting other believers and so With that goal in mind we won't.
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Nice. Oh.
It's good to have friends. There we go. The videos just want to continue to play. Sorry about that. Of course they do. Now we're now we're back on schedule. All right, and we lost we lost three viewers because our commercial how about that?
Let me let me turn the comments back on let us know that you're watching if we can pray for you. Let us know that as well. If you have any questions, we'd love to try to answer those if we can. We'll do the best we can.
Somebody already stumped us or stumped me at least a couple podcasts ago. Hopefully we can get back into Daniel Daniel 12 and Matthew 13 or 14. I can't remember which one it is. But that was a really good one.
It was a really good one and it's a relevant topic in some circles the partial preterist preterist view understanding the scripture correctly. Interpreting correctly, but that was that's a toughie right there.
All right, let's jump into this is a question coming from from Dan's side of social media somebody posted a question about Our bodies being the temple of the Holy Spirit temple of God and What does that mean some people many people I'm sure were brought up.
Hearing or being taught don't smoke. Don't do drugs. Your body is the temple and that was that was their application.
So don't smoke don't chew and don't go with the girls who do that's right. I.
May have to take off the overlay again, then. Let's see. No, there goes right in the middle. Well except for the cross. The cross well, that's where it should be. Right in the middle, let's take off the overlay.
There we go. So first Corinthians chapter 3 where do you want to start?
Let's see.
The.
Chapter 1 no start in a verse aren't verse 10.
Well, I've turned the volume off of my phone. Yeah, go ahead. Go ahead. Oh, yeah. I can't. I can't read that. Oh, okay.
Do what. So that's way too small.
That bigger.
No, I'll follow along in my Bible, okay according to the grace of God.
Which is was given to me like a wise master builder. I laid a foundation and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it for no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid Which is Jesus Christ.
Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold silver precious stones wood a straw each man's work will become Evident for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work.
If any man's work which he is built on it remains he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved yet. So as through fire, do you not know that you you are a temple of God and that The Spirit of God dwells in you.
If any man destroys the temple of God God will destroy him for the temple of God is holy and that is what you are and I think that's where the crutch of the question come from because you you don't want somebody to Destroy the temple of God and then God burned them up because they destroyed God's temple, which is your body.
So how would you respond to this person?
Well.
You got to take the whole thing in context to look at you know, what is being it being said here the whole book is dealing with a disunity and a really a Church that's it's gone off track like they they at one point Had the gospel believed in it even even to this point still do but they have got some major practical things just wonky and so Paul is talking to the me he says some stuff in chapter 1 and chapter 2 about how they're divided over certain teachers or was this teacher or that teacher that they were.
That they were Joining themselves to. I'm of this one. I'm of that one. I'm of Christ. No, whoever you you wanted to be Linked up with that that's the camp I'm in, you know, so I'm better than you because you're only over there dealing with that guy.
So what I'm saying is I'm trying to address you you go back in the first part of chapter 3 Trying to address you as spiritual people, but you aren't able to handle that you're dealing with Jealousy and strife.
He says who is Apollos who is Paul? It doesn't matter who cares. We're here to do the same work and that work is to build up the church. So we build up the church we build up in order to to to do so as long as someone is building up the church.
Rightly then that person is All right within the confines of the church. That's not who Paul is getting on at that point. So he goes on he says about What is it that you're doing to build you laying a foundation of gold?
Silver precious stones. Wood hay straw. Whatever you do is going to be judged on the last day. God will look at what you've done. And if what you did was worthwhile It'll be judged as gold or silver precious stones if it's not it'll be burned up as wood hair stubble.
He says then he says. Do you not know that you were God's temple and the Holy Spirit dwells in you? So if someone destroys the temple if you give a wood hay stubble. Offering to the church if what you do is worthless and it's burned up.
What do you think is going to become of you. He even goes on in the next few verses says. Well, no one deceive himself. If anyone thinks he's wise in this age. Let him become a fool that he may become wise.
What he's saying there is we're not trusting in our way of doing things. We're going to have to trust in the way that God is. The way God is doing things. So I want to point out something verses 16 and 17 because they're the the verses that people look at the most.
And it says do you and this is important you look at the word you there do you. That you is singular is talking about an individual. Do you who is under the sound of my voice not know that? You and that word you there is in the plural.
Southern folks would say y 'all y 'all. Yeah, y 'all in fact when I was taking Greek this last this last year taking Greek one again. Not because I failed but because I just had to for credit. We convinced our professor to use y 'all for the second person plural.
So we would be reading through and y 'all would be acceptable. So do y 'all or do you not know that y 'all you guys? Collectively are God's temple and the God Spirit dwells in y 'all you plural. If anyone destroys God's temple God will destroy him.
For God's temple is holy and you are that temple now, I think the context here pushes in a certain direction. However, the grammar is a little bit Ambiguous here's what that means. It could be saying that you are the temple of the Holy Spirit.
Robert and I Dan am the temple of the Holy Spirit if we believe in Christ Jesus. Likewise with every single individual that individual is a temple of the Holy Spirit or it could be saying You Robert and me and Every other Bible believing God fearing Person on the planet that trust in Christ for their salvation.
Collectively is one temple of the Holy Spirit. So while the grammar is a little bit ambiguous I think the context would push us to believe that he's he's telling us that. That the church as a unit is in view here.
So don't you? Corinthian church know that you are the temple you are God's temple and that's where God's Spirit resides. So if you go about doing work that is destroying the Church of God. Destroying God's temple you will be judged for that on the last day.
I think that's what the interpretation says now. Like I said, the grammar is ambiguous. So I gotta have a little bit more background a little bit more Footing under me to make that statement as boldly as I just did.
So if you Look over into chapter 6 that same Language is used the same idea. Your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit. You start in verse 19 He's going through here talking about no fleeing against sin, but don't destroy the unity of the believers through lawsuit don't engage in sexual immorality because Where does it say?
Verse.
18 flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside of the body. The sexual immoral that the sexually immoral person sins against his own body. His own singular body. So what does that mean verse 19 or?
Do you it's singular not know that your body? That you're there is plural your plural y 'all's body singular one body is The temple or is a temple singular of the Holy Spirit within y 'all you. Whom y 'all have from God y 'all.
You plural are not y 'all's own not your own for y 'all Plural were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body singular one body. So because Paul uses the same metaphor here, and I think he uses more clear language that.
Temple of the Holy Spirit is. The collective body of the Saints is the church.
I.
Think also that you it's not talking about someone who say Well, you've heard it said that people who get tattoos or smoke or drink or do something to defile the Their physical body is defiling or destroying the temple of the Holy Spirit.
I Think that's what that's saying at all at least not here. There are other passages talk about gluttony doing things to you know above and beyond drinking too much wine doing stuff That is harmful to yourself.
We have the sixth commandment which talks about preserving life. Preserving life I believe has If you take it out to its logical conclusion means doing things that are necessary to preserve your own life which would be living a healthy lifestyle making sure that you're getting proper sleep and Exercise and all of that stuff, but I don't think that's what it's talking about here in 1st Corinthians.
So this warning That the one who destroys the God's temple God will destroy him I don't think is talking about people who are smoking or drinking too much or Any of those other things because of those actions Because I think that this passage is talking about those who would destroy the church from the inside.
What do you remember? Well, I.
Said a lot. So well, I'd like to study.
I'd like to study this issue a little bit more because you know I'm coming from that same background where this is this is taken as an individual individual take so I need to. You know, sorry about that.
I'm I'm seeing this as We could also say tabernacle just the way it's described, you know. My body is a is a tabernacle trying to compare it to the Old Testament. Tabernacle tabernacling the Holy Spirit dwells in here.
God dwelt in the Holy Spirit tabernacle means Dwelling, you know where God dwells. And so that's what that's what's happening here in in the temple. God is the Holy Spirit is dwelling there. So he's tabernacling with us.
And then you know don't defile it. So that's where I'm coming from. But I also it reminds me of conversations that that we had in college. That we don't think. We don't think in the Western world the way you're talking about the way the way they thought the authors of the text here with this mindset of Group with the group in mind with with the culture in mind.
We are more individualistic. And so we we tend to read scripture individualistically, even though there's There is the justification by faith. There's the gospel is for the individual God saves individuals that is in Scripture.
We have that but also there's there's the theme and there's the mindset. There's the thinking there's the There's that which is written. About the collective about the whole I mean Go into all the world and preach the gospel make disciples of all nations.
The nations will come to Zion, I mean even in the New Testament There's that idea that the nations will come go disciple the nations you know. And so you have that concept and as you're as you're explaining this this thought here in first Corinthians 3 and chapter 3 and chapter 6.
It.
Is pretty consistent With what's going on in chapter 5. If you look at the incident that Paul brings up at the very beginning there is. There's such a sin among them that is not even mentioned in the Gentiles, right?
And what does he ask them to do? Verse seven. So that you may be a new lump. He's enacting church discipline here because of one to preserve the whole. Right. And so to me that interpretation that you know that you're drawing out here of the temple of the Holy Spirit the temple of God.
Being a more collective mindset here. Falls right in place with chapter 5.
And what he's going after there, right? It also helps you to realize that. Especially with the sin of sexual immorality. If you as an individual Commit that sin It's not just you who is affected.
Yeah.
We drag our we take our dirty feet and we'll stomp it all over the temple of God as we bring it to our collective. No local churches on on Sunday. If you know if I'm out here looking at pornography or cheating on my wife or anything like that and I bring that into the sanctuary.
Unrepentant, oh man, I think that's that's my. That's a much closer Situation to what he's describing here, I think than the one who has a cigarette before they Who smokes a pipe on the way to I don't know chop wood with friends or whatever they do.
Well to me it also it also sounds like a biblical Dividing it up between systematic and biblical theology. It seems like a biblical concept. You know, we don't draw everything from the Old Testament because Christ fulfilled Those things that that was pointing to him and then in the New Testament, but as far as principle goes, you know you have you have God speaking to the whole God speaking to the nation of Israel and just the one instance that I'm thinking about is Go plunder or not plunder, but go go destroy this nation.
But don't take anything and then here you have this guy who hides had some spools underneath the tent. And what does God do? He doesn't destroy the whole nation, but he takes care of that one individual, right?
But the nation was in trouble. Yeah, before they called him out. There's a nation had had the sin brought upon themselves as a collective Even though the individual was the one who was who was punished.
And isn't that the interest interesting concept? Sure. Yeah, so it's it's not like God like say we've just got some bozo down here who just will not repent of his sin. I'm not going to be held accountable Necessarily for his individual sin.
However, the consequences of that sin being allowed in The the group in the church in the temple of the Holy Spirit of Allowing something that is defiled to be around the thing that is holy God that We can have some hindrances.
Us as a church could be held back or. It could be it could get a little dicey, you know, right. Well the other place that I can think of.
With which I'm sure there's there's many others that we could talk about but I'm going all the way to the book that we won't Talk about tonight. Revelation and you got the the first First several chapters there Jesus is speaking to the churches and he speaks of removing their candlestick.
You know speaking to the church at whole, right? And so, you know, yes. Yes, there is end of individualistic Applications in Scripture, but Transitioning from the Old Covenant or the Old Testament to the New Testament Oh Covenant New Covenant there still is that that idea or mindset of God deals with the whole.
There is a large continuity between the Old Testament in the New Testament. Maybe some baptizer children.
You know.
I can't wait till we have that podcast on the laborers podcast. I've got it on our list. I'm not sure if you noticed it or not, but we're.
Have to show up for that one. It's gonna be counterparts will show up and not hang me out to dry.
Believers baptism versus infant baptism covenant baptism covenant baptism. My apologies.
No, it's okay. Converts.
Yeah, that's true, yeah, yeah, well the only other thing that I would say on this is. You've got that and you mentioned it just a few minutes ago and you read the the previous verse in chapter 6 I guess it's verse 18 where The sin of sexual immorality and It's it's a sin that's inside the body.
All other sins are outside the body. And it's talking about defiling the temple. You know if you want to if you want to camp there for a few minutes and you're studying and talk about that. You know, I was thinking about I was thinking about those things and You know in Scripture You have the immorality idea of defiling the temple you have idolatry on defiling the temple and then People talk about if you read.
Other people they talk about just sin in general defiling the temple but. And then we get into you know, what is a sin is this sins that a sin is a sin of conscience? It's there for you sin for me. Those things that people were bringing up.
There's see their sins if they become a sin. They're not necessarily, you know, some of these things are not sins.
If If.
They don't take control of us. You know the Holy Spirit's. We we loosen the control of the Holy Spirit. We don't yield to the Holy Spirit and those things become Controlling over us like don't become drunk.
You know, that's. That's kind of where we stand on that, you know. Where the drinking comes in? Don't become drunk don't don't let it be your Controller instead of the Holy Spirit. And so the same thing is true for smoking.
Same thing is true and you you brought it up to gluttony. Same thing is true for eating. You can eat too much. You can eat the wrong things. So All these things are our sins when they become sinful.
Right another thing to to think about that would I think keep us from? Of making that the conclusion that.
Each.
Say say smoking for instance is is a. If like say you die of lung cancer because of smoking that you are automatically say judged of God for destroying his temple. If that person repents. Even if they repent later on they still have the cancer the cancer still takes, you know.
Takes the body kills kills the body. Is that person then who has repented and trusted in Christ for the forgiveness of their sins. Is that person then lost? Just because of the nature of how they died and I don't think that the Bible teaches that because.
The Bible teaches that anyone who comes to Christ for the forgiveness of their sins is gonna find him to be a perfect Savior right, so if we are reading a passage that when we come to its its logical conclusion could lead to a situation where Someone who is truly repentant still suffers the consequence of previous actions.
That that person can't be saved because of their previous actions. Then we have done a great disservice to the gospel itself. Yeah, yeah, the gospel has the power to save even those who say did smoke for years and got cancer who Repented of their sin and yet.
There they are. They're still suffering the consequences. It doesn't mean that they can't find salvation in Christ, right?
And.
Yeah, no good. Well the blood of Christ pays for all sin even future sin. And People we are going to continue to struggle with sin for the rest of our life. Even if even if it's that same sin. You know, we should be moving in a certain direction of holiness.
You know, we we talk about that we preach on that but we're all we're gonna struggle. There's gonna be. We're gonna continue to struggle and Jesus pays for for all of our sin.
Right, and that that's why it's so important for us to be a part of a local body and for for the local body to be involved in each other's life,. I Think of what Jesus said when he asked He had he had the people outside of his of his house or Peter's house or wherever he was Saying and if we want to talk about Jesus having a house we can talk about that later, too.
But we have The people saying hey your mother and your brothers and your sister are outside and he looks around he's like who is my mother and My brother and my sisters. It's those who do the will of God.
So really the the true family relationship we should be Encouraging one another the strongest is our church family relationship. That should be our strongest bonds is where our tightest bonds should be forged.
Should be between those of us who are believers. So if you it's why it's so important to be within a Believing body of Christians because the one of the purposes of us joining together humanly speaking is that we will have a People to hold us accountable to uplift us to point us to Christ and to help us along the way.
Absolutely, we're about at the 30-minute mark and I don't think we're going to get a chance to go into being slain in the spirit a. Subject. Another listener brought up that that we would like to hit on.
Maybe we can do that next. Next Monday night. And by the way, if if you happen to notice If you watch this live our night has changed for right now. We're gonna be doing Monday nights instead of Sunday nights.
Monday nights at 830. So let's jump into this the main subject tonight. See if we can get it in at 30 minutes. The dating. Well, there's so much more we could always talk about. But the dating of the book of Revelation.
We want to talk about that tonight. And we want to talk about why. That's important. But before you answer that question Dan why that subject is important. I wanted to read just this this little section here.
And I should have marked it. But I'll be able to find it really easy. It's at the beginning of the book. Let me get past all the prefaces. Well, I'm gonna find it. What book is it? I'm gonna reveal that in just one moment.
Whoo-hoo.
Suspenseful pay for the whole seat, but you only need the edge. There we go. It was at the beginning. It is the preface.
So here's the book days of vengeance. But David Chilton, I did no comment. Oh, it's a good book. I've got. This is in the preface, sorry, it took so long to find it I just wanted to read this before we got started.
He says number one. His number one point in the in the preface revelation is the most biblical Book in the Bible. St. John quotes hundreds of passages from the Old Testament Often with subtle allusions to little-known religious rituals of the Hebrew people.
In order to understand revelation We need to know our Bibles backward and forward. One reason why this commentary is so large is that I have tried to explain this extensive biblical background Commenting on numerous portions of the scripture that shed light on st. John's prophecy.
I have also Okay, he reprints this appendix, but I thought that was so important. It's an important point that He's he's his claim is that revelation is the most biblical he put that in quotes biblical book in the whole Bible.
It's referencing so much from the Old Testament. So when we look at the book of Revelation We don't try to import.
Our.
Ideas our.
Eschatology our own thoughts into our futurism into revelation. We need to understand revelation based on How John intended us to read it in his Inferring back to the Old Testament is quoting the Old Testament.
And so if we interpret it read it in light of how John wrote it. We're gonna we're gonna come up with Such different conclusions than what's so popular today. Sure, but I thought that was such an important point to make.
Understanding how John wrote the book Helps us to understand how we should interpret it. So so Dan why is the date the writing of.
The book of Revelation so important well, it's important for several reasons. One of the reasons why it's important is that if it's written in If it's written at say in 95 ad like some people say it was 95 or 96 ad That takes place after 70 ad, you know because of math and time and physics and how all that works.
If that's the case, then the the book here can't be said to be predictive prophecy of what is about to take place It I guess you could make the argument that it is Revealing and type in shadow things that had already taken place, but we haven't seen a pattern of that in Scripture.
Unless you're willing to take some of the more liberal positions on like Isaiah or Daniel or whatever we just don't. Bible leaving. Christians take the Bible at face value if it says was written at a certain time you believe it and We see predictive prophecy all the way through The book the the Bible.
There's no reason to think that when you come to Revelation, it would be different that this would be like after the fact or something. So one of the reasons why it's important is that if this was written before 70 ad it matches up fairly well with the events that conspired to see the the fall of the Jerusalem and the ending of the Old Covenant era.
And if that's what's taking place and that's what we should understand the text to mean. So one of the reasons why is because if it's written in 95 ad It's not talking about that because those things would have already happened.
But if it's talking about stuff if it was written in say 65 or 66 or 67 ad those events That John were to speak of Would be future and not just future but short to come shortly would shortly come to pass would take place soon.
Which I think there's evidence within the book to suggest that there would take soon. But that's some of some of the reasons why it's important.
Well, we talked about um, we talked about some of the aspects of these different eschatologies like Dispensational pre-tribal pre-millennial ism and then we talked about Amiel post-millennial ism and some of those aspects that we I brought up before we talked about before.
If one of those things falls apart It really punches a big hole in that eschatology if not breaks it down. Is this one of those areas one of those concepts that Depending on which way you go the other one kind of crumbles.
It it can. I would say that'd be more true for your Interpretational method for the book so it would probably have more to do with whether or not you you take a preterist position or an idealist position or a futurist position or a historicist position.
I don't necessarily think it would Impact someone away somebody. I Don't I don't think no matter when it's dated. It could cause someone to not be a post-millennialist or to not be an amillennialist even even if you do have a later date of Let's say 95 or 96 AD.
I still think that People like RJ rush Juni took an idealist perspective of the book of Revelation and still was a strong post-millennialist. So he came he came away with it with a different understanding of the book of Revelation but still held to a post-millennial eschatology.
So.
Yes, and no, okay.
But it is pretty powerful it is and it can strengthen one argument of or the other.
One of the reasons why it does that is because the the dating of the book helps determine the context in which it was written. If it was if it was written before the the fall of Jerusalem and the the punishment of the the Jewish nation at the end of the Old Covenant.
If it was written before that then Those things would be in view. If it happened after that it would change the whole Context because those things that already passed away and the Christian Church had started and been going for a little bit You know almost 60 years at that point Before he had these visions.
So it definitely changes the context that you that the whole book would take on.
Yeah, that's exactly right. So if you're if you take an earlier date and you're reading Revelation and It's meaning this words talking about that and it can't it can't be talking about that but if you take a later date.
Then it can't mean what you were reading into it when you had when you held an earlier Date for the writing of Revelation. And so I mean.
But there's a lot that plays into the John wrote John wrote to real churches that were around at his time so if the if the date was in 70 or 66 67 AD Then we would have to read the book of Revelation as if we were in one of those churches Receiving the book from him and if it was written in 95 or 96 AD We would have to read the book as if it was given to us in one of those churches in that that date.
Unless and here's a big if you take one of those positions that. And for whatever reason a lot of dispensationalist will do this. They will spiritualize the churches into different eras of history. Saying that it typifies what's going to happen throughout time.
I don't know how you have a very literal grammatical historical interpretation of the Bible all the way through and then you come to the seven churches and say. It's clearly talking about ages of Churches.
I don't know how you arrive at that conclusion. That's the point that I was gonna bring up. It seems wildly inconsistent to me, but.
You've got to take it. Literally you got to take it literally.
Oh, well, let's spiritualize this one. I mean you can't pick and choose. Yeah, I don't I don't know.
Well, this this is where I like to start Dan because it's my understanding that The argument for The later date which you said was the writing of Revelation happened around 95 96. Right, the real big argument in support of that date is.
Irenaeus, yep, and.
From my understanding That's really I'm not well read. I'm not claiming to be well read. I'm not claiming to have read it all or heard all the arguments, but from what I did read That's pretty much.
That.
That's the biggest if not, the only argument for the later date is Irenaeus.
Well, you've got you got your nice. You've also got I think it's Clement of Alexandria. And then you've got a bunch of people who quote those two.
People will try to to Say well look you have all these people who are who are saying that it was during Demetrius reign it was towards no 95 96 AD and yet they're just quoting the same guy over and over.
No, no, probably helpful to look at this. Look at this quote. You got it ready. Oh, yeah. We're good. It comes from Irenaeus's work on against heresies at Book 5 chapter 30 verse 3. And it goes like this.
We will not however incur the risk of pronouncing positively as to the name of Antichrist. In other words, he was talking about who the Antichrist was. He says I'm not going to pronounce know what his name is.
I'm not going to say what his name is. For if it were necessary that this name should be Distinctly revealed in this present time. In other words if we were to know it Then it would have been announced by him who beheld the apocalyptic vision.
In other words if John thought it was important for us to know who he was He would have just told us in plain English or Greek. Then here comes the the portion of it that is. It's the portion of people point to the most.
For that was seen no very long time since. But almost in our own day. Towards the end of Demetian's reign now. Here's the thing.
If.
If John saw the apocalyptic vision if he saw the vision of revelation and he saw it in the in the at the end of Demetian's reign Then there's no way that he could have written down the vision that he hadn't seen yet 30 years prior.
Does that make sense? Right? It makes sense. The problem is that that the English here is Much more certain about what actually took place Than the Greek, right? So in in in Greek, there's You know first second and third person.
Just like in English first person being I me my. Second person being you yourself y 'all. A third person being he she or it. So you can say different things like He saw the movie or.
Threw a Threw a ball and it hit the window, you know it being third person. So really what you have in Greek is it's left up to the context to determine whether it means he she or it because it's all wrapped up into the Endings the conjugation of the verb.
So that verb is the one for was seen Was seen and it was in the third person. So For that or for it was seen would be the apocalyptic vision Referred to before but it could also be referring to for he Was seen announced by who announced by John for John was seen In our no very long time since but almost in our own day towards the end of Demetrius reign.
So it could have been that and following with the logic of the whole quote They're not gonna answer because if it was necessary that John would have told us John would have said it in plain language. And he had opportunity to do so because we've seen him.
We've seen him even towards the end of Demetrius reign. He's had time to clarify Who this Antichrist figure was? So the Greek at best Doesn't tell us Anything.
So it could be referring to the text itself or it could be referring to John who they saw.
Right. And so it we really have no way of knowing what it was. The Irenaeus was trying to say to us. Now I think that it's in the context of.
Grammatically, we don't know. I mean it could be one it could be the other I think in the context of what he wrote down here. I think it makes the most sense to say.
Not that he saw the vision recently so we should know. But that John didn't clarify and he had the opportunity to because we saw him. Even at the end of Demetrius reign. Right. He had time to clarify his statement.
Why don't we just take the.
The principle that we learned in hermeneutics the science of interpretive scripture Interprets something in light of the clear. So like you said, this is this is ambiguous. It could go either way and you have a whole Eschatology that Weighs in the balance on the dating of Revelation here.
Possibly. Possibly maybe. But it it supports it strongly if it's written later. The the dispensational, you know pre meal view the preacher of rapture view. You know, it swings heavily towards this this later date.
However, the support for that later date is is very very iffy. What is clear. What have we found out that is clear. What do we have the most support for the internal evidence of an earlier date of Revelation and.
So I think it's important to carry over a hermeneutical principle of interpretive scripture Understand something that's ambiguous or hard to understand in light of the clearer passages. Does that make sense?
Well, even in science and in mathematics, which I mean once you come out of Scripture you lose the theological aspect to how you interpret things because these are not inspired words. So if you if it's not clear.
We can't say if it's not been proven like you think of geometric proofs. Yeah from geometry if you haven't proven it then you can't use it to solve the problem. So if it's inspired. Not yet where scripture is inspired scripture We have a theological aspect where maybe something Can be ambiguous but it's spoken of Elsewhere through the analogy of faith and through the rest of scripture, right?
But here this has to be taken at face value only in this context unless he explains himself expressly somewhere else because He's allowed to define his terms, but if he doesn't define those terms, we're not allowed to define them for him.
Which also we do in the Bible if the Bible doesn't say it we allow what is clear in the Bible to to speak.
Yeah, I do want to squeeze this in and I'm not big on contradicting anybody especially On air or in a podcast like this. But my notes were coming from Ken Gentry and when you brought up Clement of Alexandria I did some.
I did take a note. When he mentioned Clement of Alexandria he is saying that he wrote Clement was about 200 years after 200 years 280 and He was in favor early date of Revelation and this because in his writings He found it in Clements writings called who is the rich man chapter 42.
He said that the Apostle. The Apostolic Era Ended with Nero.
Sure.
And and John wrote or John is the author of Revelation so therefore I guess I guess logically he's making the connection if if the Apostolic Era ended with with Nero and Dementia that not dimension. I got dimension Demetian Demetian if he comes after Nero.
So if the Apostolic Era ended with Nero. Then he had to be written earlier because John is the author if that makes sense.
No, no, you're absolutely right. And and what what I meant by that was that there is a there's a piece of External evidence that is claimed to be in support of a late date that comes from Clement of Alexandria.
Okay. However, you're right Gentry does say that.
This piece actually goes in favor of an early date and I agree with him. It absolutely does because what he does is he says. He says this. And to give you confidence. When you have truly repented that there remains for you a trustworthy hope and salvation.
Here a story that is no mere story, but is a true account of John the Apostle. That has been handed down and preserved in memory. When after the death of the tyrant he removed from the isle island of Patmos to Ephesus.
Now the contention is that when it says tyrant that it's speaking of Demetian. Mm-hmm. Gentry does a really good job of pointing out that Demetian never had a lot or worldwide general persecution of the area let alone Christians and that his is.
He was a violent type of dude. It was not a nice guy, but that his were more isolated and purposeful. Nero was just psycho and wanted to kill everyone especially Christians. Yeah, so the the person who was called tyrant by.
The the people who were living in that day was Nero. If you had somebody and you were talking to them. They said, you know, what about the tyrant? They would say that's Nero, right? It's that. So what he's saying here actually gives a better when you understand the tyrant to be Nero.
It's better evidence for the early date. So it says when after the death of the tyrant he removed from the island of Patmos to Ephesus. So he left the isle of Patmos and went to Ephesus to serve for a time after Nero died which was Not anywhere close to the 90s, right?
It means that he was able to go. Right when Nero died which is much closer to that 70 ad date, right? Well with the time that we go ahead what I was saying, you're right the the evidence that was Is said to be in favor of a later date is actually evidence of an earlier date earlier date.
Gotcha. Gotcha with well with a time that we have remaining. Let's see if we can look at that more clear. I think it's more clear internal evidence that We're pulling from John in the book of Revelation and how it supports an earlier date of him writing the book of Revelation.
Would you. I was gonna go to Revelation 11 1 and 2.
All right. And I'll just I'll just read those two verses real quick and.
We can walk through those those verses well, um, yeah before we go there. We should Should probably back up a little bit sure. And show just how revelation set instead of going into the middle of Revelation.
Okay, and showing stuff that we feel to be consistent actually building the case from the beginning of Revelation itself. Okay. Yeah, if we start off in in verse 1 Of Revelation 1 It says the revelation of Jesus Christ was God gave to show his servants of things which must soon take place.
So whatever date You come up with for the dating of the book of Revelation. The events that are contained in the book of Revelation are supposed to take place soon. Um people will try to say that that just means that they're going to happen quickly after they start but that's it's not like those words that the being soon and quickly aren't.
They don't mean that like it's not meant like that. Hardly anywhere and certainly not in the biblical record. So, I mean it's almost like you have to reinvent like change. Kind of like what's happening that happening now with our the definition of what a woman is in in the Merriam-Webster dictionary.
You almost have to go back and redefine what soon means in your your Greek lexicon. Yeah.
I mean I could just I could just imagine if you were original reader and Let's say that it was written 95 96 AD and you are an original reader and you read this and John is telling you this must shortly take place.
I'm thinking We're gonna have to go through this again. We just went through it. We have to go through this again or something similar.
Right, right. If you're re if you're one of these people in the F Smyrna or Pergamum Thyatira you're going to be like, okay, he's writing to me. This is gonna happen soon. Therefore I need to be ready because these things are gonna happen soon.
Yeah. You pop down into verse 7 It says behold he is coming with the clouds and every eye will see him even those who pierced him and All the tribes of the earth will wail on account of him even so Amen.
So Jesus is coming He's coming on the clouds Every I will see him even those who pierced him And all the tribes will wail on account of him even so Amen.
Matthew.
24 speaks of The returning of.
Christ.
It says the saw a returning of Christ when we say that Matthew 24 31 says the sign of the return of the Son of Man and That all the tribes of the earth will mourn they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with great power.
It's.
Really similar. You see coming on the clouds of heaven. The tribes of the earth will warn every I will see him, you know. He will have becoming great power and glory. And what's so inter what's so important about that is when you look in Matthew 24 Just a few short verses after verse 31 you find a.
You find that little phrase where it says That that all these things will take place before this generation passes away. So the people who are going to be there when these events take place. Are going to be the people who are there listening to him that day even it even says it here.
Even those who pierced him. Some of the people who were there in order to execute the the the crucifixion upon Jesus were going to be around for. The events that were taking place in the book of Revelation Um is describing what this coming is going to look like.
You know, how's it gonna be? You know what what's taking place here? So because. Just because of the the dating. It seems that these events were all wrapped up in 70 AD. If all these events were wrapped up in 70 AD that means that the book of Revelation had to have been written before that right in order to.
Say this is what's happening. This is what's coming up in the future.
Yeah, you've got this you've got the I can't remember the terminology that's used but the the nearness language. Yeah shortly take place it's it's near it's at hand. You have all that language and it's it's sprinkled throughout the book, you know if it's just if it's just in like a one place, then you can maybe Say it's ambiguous like we were talking about Irenaeus but it's sprinkled throughout and It's the context makes makes it clear who he's speaking to who the audience is.
Who should be? Understanding that it's which audience is it near to scripture. I think it's clear on that. And then like you said if you look at Matthew 24 if you look at Revelation you you see a parallel and Matthew 24 is speaking of That generation and leading up to Matthew 24, you know Jesus is hinting at who is going to see his is coming.
You will not finish going through the cities of Israel. You know, he's just He's telling us who his audience is who is going to see these things and then Revelation becomes a parallel to Matthew 24. The the same events are described.
Right.
Also, if you remember The the What Clement of Alexandria was saying? How John was released from Patmos at the shortly after the death of Nero? Nero died in June of 68 AD. Says down here in verse 9 I John your brother and partner in tribulation in the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Christ Jesus Was on the isle of called Patmos on account of the Word of God in the Testament of Jesus.
It says was past tense. No, where was he? So I Think he wrote this down shortly after you know sometime in 68 AD somewhere shortly after June. When he was finally released from the island he left and wrote down the vision that he had while he was on the island.
Which when he says soon, I mean like like Do you're pushing it man? Like he saw that vision and he's writing it down and like all of these things would be happening like now. Right, he may have been you know penning stuff, you know, while events were beginning to take place around him.
Yeah, it was it was incredibly tight timeline.
Anything else before we jump to Revelation chapter 11? No, good. All right. Well just on the theme of what you were doing. Let me do this speaking of parallels Luke chapter 21 verse 24 now everybody listen to this.
And Luke chapter 21 verse 24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword and will be led captive into all nations and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled now.
That's a big question for folks. What does the time of the Gentiles mean? Is that is that what we're going through right now the time of the Gentiles the gospel going to the Gentiles and then you know Israel will come back and you know be big again.
What's the time of the Gentiles? Look look in Revelation chapter 11 verses 1 2 then there was given me a measuring rod like a staff and someone said get up and measure the temple of God and the Altar and those who worship in it.
Leave out the court which is outside the temple and do not measure it. Where has been given to the nations. And they will tread underfoot the holy city for 42 months. This trampling and treading underfoot by the Gentiles.
Same thing parallel passage Luke 21 24 and here in Revelation chapter 11. I Versus.
Yep.
So let's let's start at the beginning verse 1. Then there there was giving him a measuring rod like a staff and Someone said get up and measure the temple of God and the altar and those who worship in it.
Some people want to spiritualize this. So people who are promoting an early writing a revelation they're saying this is evidence because the person speaking to John is telling him to to get up and Go measure the temple.
Now people who want to promote a later date I Cannot pronounce this guy's name, but he says greetings greetings to you. Mr. Production. He's on YouTube. Thanks for watching. We really appreciate it. Can you say that name?
Or is it comics.
I'm not sure.
Yeah, it's like three words put together Finkel missed comics gotcha. Or maybe it's Finkel missed.
So those who want to promote a later date of 95 96 ad for revelation they're gonna spiritualize this and say. Or If CP will do. You said it right. You got it, right Dan.
Hey.
Figurative figurative language or spiritualize it and say well he's he's you know, he's not speaking of a literal temple. He's spiritualizing it. How do we know Dan that the John is being told to to measure The the temple the literal temple that's in Jerusalem.
What what other temples you gonna measure? Exactly what other temple he's gonna measure. The one that's that's still standing the one that still is if if this was written in 95 ad. The temple has been destroyed.
There's not a temple to measure.
Right and.
Where is the temple. The temple is in Jerusalem and if it's still going to be trampled underfoot by the nation's for 42 months. It would have been describing past past information, yeah.
Exactly and then the other evidence there He's speaking of the the actual temple is that he's speaking of the one that's in the Holy City and the Holy City had to be still standing and The other references in Scripture of the Holy City is referring to Jerusalem.
That's how we know he's speaking of Jerusalem. That's how we know it speaking of the temple in Jerusalem when he says the Holy City here and so the Holy City Jerusalem must still be standing and it must be speaking of a literal the literal temple in Jerusalem because he's speaking of a Holy City.
He's not speaking of a spiritualized or figurative Place. That the Gentiles are going to tread underfoot for 42 months. This is a literal event that's going to happen. And so the temple must be literal that he's supposed to be measuring.
Does that make sense? Yep. And so if all that's true if all that's true, then It has to it hasn't happened yet. And so it's a journey to to John to John. Yes so it's pointing to an early date of Revelation being written.
Let's see. We have a question from YouTube mr. Production. I Haven't gotten to revelation yet. I've studied Matthew to Jude and then went to read Ezekiel and Daniel first. Hey great places to start and if you're interested, you know, if you're interested shameless plug here.
We've done some videos on Daniel.
Did we do Ezekiel. We did Ezekiel. Didn't we. We did a little bit of Ezekiel. The portions that were related to. That's right.
Esther right. So we did Ezekiel some relevant passages in Ezekiel. We went all the way through Esther. And so I think those would be good For you to listen to as you you're leading up to and we did some stuff on Matthew.
Of course Matthew 24. Especially as you lead up to Revelation. So right now we're just trying to look at the eternal evidence of an of the dating or the early dating of Revelation so we believe that John is pointing here to a Literal temple that he is asked to measure.
Hasn't happened yet. Literal sitting little trip. Literal trampling. For those for those guys that Are accused of not taking the Revelation literally we're speaking. We're taking it literal here. I do believe.
I do believe that there is a World event that is being spoken about in Revelation that I would say Have already happened, but also that there's a spiritual side from what I know so far. I would hold to a later date.
Gotcha, we won't turn you away.
Nope, be honest. I think there's there's uh, I think there's more to it than a Recounting or a Short-term prophecy of what's about to happen. I think think John is is telling The is telling of what's about to take place, but I think he's doing so in such a way That we'll be able to to look ahead into Into our time and see Patterns of things that that could happen.
So as we see a judgment come upon the nation of Israel here in the book of Revelation we can Kind of see and understand that the the workings behind what what God is doing perhaps when other nations are judged.
No have other nations done this that or the other thing. What are some of the things that happen in the world that could be? Construed as warnings from God and to turn and to repent. What sort of things could be a sign of God actually, you know pouring out his judgment on a people so I don't necessarily think that You can.
I was kind of like nailing firm jello to the wall. It's actually absolutely speaking about I think the events of 70 AD, but I think he's he's also giving us a Guideline for the future as well. Ending in ending in and this is very important in today's conversation ending in a future second coming of Christ and a bodily resurrection.
Well, I would throw this in there Dan and I would I would relate it to a comment that you made earlier because and and I'm making this comment because there's Probably most or many people that are that watch our podcast are probably unaware of.
Some controversies that are happening in in some of the the Facebook groups that that we're reading or listening to between partial preterist and full preterist. And so, you know I would say this based on a comment that you made earlier.
Just because a person holds to a later date of the writing of Revelation the the year 95 or 96 doesn't mean they can't still be a.
A.
Post-millennialist and I would say I would say this because I know a lot of people are tiptoeing around this issue right now it if you hold to the early date of Revelation and Revelation pointing to the the culmination of the tribulation and Everything ending in 70 AD and that's what all this is pointing to doesn't make you a full preterist.
You can still be a partial preterist. You know, it's okay and You know so many of these things overlap between the two groups. I'm not a I'm not a full preterist. I'm not a what did you what did you call it?
When when we were trying to Hyper preterist Heretic, it wasn't heretical preterist or you said something called us Orthodox preterist. Orthodox. Yeah Orthodox preterist. Yeah, yeah, we're still Orthodox preterist, but I think Revelation does speak to that that time period and The fulfillment of all you know, all these things happening in 70 AD.
But one other thing that I would like to mention As far as internal evidence and something cool helping us understand and interpret interpret Revelation you know these these dates come up and And sometimes we don't have dates and we We don't know when things are going to take place.
But when when time periods are given like in Daniel when he talks about weeks 70 weeks. You know, how do we understand those things? Sometimes when dates are given we don't understand them. Here we have some dates some actual dates are given and and how do we understand that?
How are they used how do they help us understand Scripture. Well John says here in verse 2 that the the Gentiles or As he says in Luke the the time of the Gentiles Are going to be 42 months that trampling is going to be 42 months.
Now.
This is what this is the notes. I'm going to give credit to where I studied in Gentry he said that Vespian was a Roman general. So what's Titus nation? Vespasian. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for that. I can't I can't pronounce these things.
What did I say? It's okay.
I can't pronounce half of me either. Well see my problem is I'm I'm trying to.
Read these names based on how I wrote them down.
No, no, and here's the thing I don't think we should we should be making fun of people for mispronouncing stuff. Because a lot of times when people mispronounce stuff they mispronounce it because they learn through reading instead of through hearing other people.
Which means that they did a lot of the research and thinking on their own and didn't weren't just parroting someone else.
So, thank you, Dan. I appreciate that.
Hey, man, I'll give you all the help.
So it's this Vespasian. Yeah, okay, and then Titus also was a Roman general. They arrived The these Roman generals and the army arrived in April of 67 AD and Then everything culminated. It ended in August of 70 AD and Ken Gentry is saying that if you add that up You've got 42 months.
And that would be the trampling of By the Gentiles the time of the Gentiles here in Revelation chapter 2. And so that's that would be our support our internal evidence of an early writing of Revelation and also Something Neat and interesting to look at to help us understand these these dates that are in here.
What did he mean. Here's what happened. This this war happened. He called it. He prophesied it. It happened. It happened in 42 months exactly. And then you have the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem in 70 AD.
Right, and those 40 those 42 months. Also link up with Daniel. Okay, and. It's just cool.
Are you reading the comments? No, I didn't. Oh, oh, I don't read a second coming. When I read things like Matthew 24, I think I 27 chapters relating to the idea, but I'm not sure there was a word for my view.
I lost the internet for a bit. Okay. Thank you for watching though. So, what was what were you saying about Daniel.
I'll just saying that the 42 months and all that is all related to the book of Daniel. I mean that that does put a a damper on say the dispensational pre-millennial position because if if the book of Daniel says all these things will take place in the days of those Kings and We see this book is clearly related to it.
Then all of these things I think should take place in the days of those Kings, which would be.
You know during during at least during the first few centuries when the.
Roman Empire was taken taken out, right? Right. Well, and if you look at the 70 weeks of years That Daniel speaks of and you don't put that gap in between the 69th and 17th 70th week. If you just keep it consistent, I know, you know, you kind of took a different view there when we looked at Daniel.
Yep, but if you do continue that trajectory and Consistent timeline you do end up here at this time period. So Daniel matches up Matthew matches up Luke matches up revelation matches up all these things are consistent and it in its consistent with an early writing of Revelation.
Which supports the the partial preterist view? And and I would add you know challenges, um, I Think and and I think I can speak for Dan as well. I want the scripture to tell me what I'm supposed to believe.
I don't want to be guilty of what I you know, what I think I see others doing importing my eschatology. Importing what I want the text to say into the text and try to make it fit. I won't God to tell me what he says and then I go with that interpretation and that's why I'm.
So it's so excited when I see the consistency. And and that's why I hold the view that I hold is because of I think that's. I think the consistency is part of the evidence of God speaking to us in scripture any any last thoughts.
As we wrap now my brain almost fried.
You know, we Got to get got to get up and go to work tomorrow. We've been on here long enough the most important thing is is that the Old Testament The New Testament it all points to Christ and it points to his coming to rescue Sinners to rescue the world to make things right because we blew it.
We messed it up we sin and we brought the curse here into this world. Even though God set up a sacrificial system. It was just to temporarily cover sin. Jesus came and wiped sin away and now he is remaking and he is called us to go and Disciple the nations help him or use us in this Kingdom building process, but to be able to be in that kingdom we've got to repent of our sins.
The Bible calls us to repent of our sins and put our faith and trust in Jesus Christ and Plead with him to save us. He says he will Call us to be born again. He will make us new new creatures. Give us a new heart a heart of flesh and He will he will give us a desire for his word desire to obey him that we didn't have before when we were blind.
We're blind to our trespasses and sin. We're blind to the things of God and we we don't seek after him. We need him to rescue us. We've all sinned. We've all missed the mark. We've all broken his law.
Every single one and we need Jesus to rescue us. So we Dan and I plead with you tonight to repent of your sins and put your faith and trust in Jesus Christ. Dan, would you mind to close this in prayer?
Dear Heavenly Father. Thank you for tonight for giving us the opportunity to look at your word. We pray that you would keep us humble. We would remember that you are the author of scripture and we are not the ones who get to determine what it means.
If we're wrong, we pray that you would cause us to repent. Pray that you would reveal yourself to each of your children and that you would continue to build your kingdom in Jesus name. We pray. Amen, amen.
Let's leave this last comment. I Would say that because he's using coded language then he would have to be in a position where it was necessary and that would defend a Later date. I've heard that I've heard that it he didn't want the Authorities to understand What he was saying, but he knew that Jewish people would understand his language Which to me that was that was support an early date as well.
Yeah, there was more widespread persecution of Christians under Nero than there was under Demetian. Yeah.
Yeah, but you have a blessed day as well. Thank you so much. And and we hope you were encouraged and it's okay if we disagree. We will we'll work this stuff out aren't you. Iron sharpens iron and and God will teach us and he'll all will all be unified one day When we're around his feet, but thank you.
Thank you again for watching everybody. We really appreciate it. Remember that Jesus is King go live in the victory of Christ. Go speak with the authority of Christ and continue to go out there and share the gospel of Christ.
We hope to see you real soon.
You.
