Road Trip Dividing Line

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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00:46

Well let's try it again. I hit unmute and it decided nope we're not gonna let you start talking yet.

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We'll have to work on that. Welcome to The Dividing Line. We are on the road. I am in northern

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Louisiana now. Warning, warning, warning. Do not drive any vehicle that you don't hate on I -20 through Shreveport, okay?

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It is not a road. We should we should sue all the map makers,

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Google, everybody for calling it a road. I'm gonna tell you, you know,

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I've been to Zambia, okay? I've driven in Zambia and Zambian roads, and they haven't invented sidewalks in Zambia, but their roads are better than I -20 in Shreveport.

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They really, really are. Wow. I keep my webcasting stuff back here in the back because I'm in the very back of our current unit.

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And just a reminder to everybody, we've started a really important to me fundraiser to get a new unit that will allow us to have a studio because I'm just sitting at a table right now.

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I have a studio and stuff that we can do lots more with. We just released a video this morning that sort of goes through it, gives you the floor plan and stuff.

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So, you know, I'm in the very back of our current unit. I have never seen my light, my little round $19 webcasting light, my really nice Shure microphone.

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I've never seen them thrown so far across the room as today going through Shreveport on I -20.

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And I was going 10 miles prior below the speed limit, but you can't go too much below the speed limit because there are these truck drivers that think it's a motor speedway.

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And they're just right through there. And it's almost like they're trying to see if they can drive you into the construction things over on the right -hand side.

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Oh, it was crazy. It was crazy. But I survived it. Put about 10 years worth of travel on the suspension system.

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But hey, we are here in northern Louisiana. Be speaking tomorrow night on the

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Trinity. Lots of oneness around this area. So we'll be talking about that subject, which means we may be talking about some current issues in the controversial world of the resourcement of Thomas Aquinas.

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But we'll get to that a little bit later. I did want to make sure to shout out here at the beginning of the program, because I guess this is his hometown.

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At least that's, I think, what I understood the last text message I saw. Jeremy Hastie. Let me,

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I should probably double check that. Yep, hometown of Minden.

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That's what it says. Yeah, if you are doing a DL, just three minutes from my hometown of Minden.

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That is epic. Well, I'm not sure how epic it is, Jeremy. But I will tell you, you, sir, are epic.

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I think it was night before last, Jeremy introduced me to his son, who is 25, and said that the first time his son had seen me, he was four.

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So it's been a couple of decades now that we've been running into Jeremy.

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And certainly when I come down here to Louisiana, nicest folks, not the best roads, but nicest folks around.

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They really, really are in Louisiana. Anytime I come down here, all

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I've got to do is contact Jeremy. And he's making phone calls, and he's arranging stuff.

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And I'm here tonight, because while we were talking about being in, you know, where I've been the past couple of days down in, you know, southern

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Louisiana, he said, you know, I've got a pastor friend. It's sort of out of your way, because it's not actually on your way to Tennessee, you'd have to sort of go back the other direction a bit.

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But, you know, they'd love to have you all come. And that's what's so wonderful about being able to do what we're doing, is not only can

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I, you know, work that in. And so here we are, and we're going to try to help local churches.

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Really, really fulfilling what Rich and I have always wanted to do in helping local churches on a level we couldn't do when

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I was traveling, when I was traveling internationally. I mean, you could help local churches over in other places.

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But even then you were going to the larger churches, not being able to get the smaller churches. But anyway, he said, you know,

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I've got a friend up there. And so here we are. Like I said,

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I'll find a different way of getting here next time. It's got to be a, it's got to be a bypass to deal with that mess.

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But here we are. And obviously, in Jeremy tonight, and so just, just every time

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I have something that I need or something like that, all I gotta do is give that brother a call and he's on top of it like a duck on a

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June bug, as my mom used to say. And so just very thankful for all the folks that are supportive of the ministry and encouraging, you know, talking with Pastor Brian last night.

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And right now people talking about how they're trying to find ways to help us with our fundraising project.

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I'm not sure if I can say it. But I'm gonna go ahead and say it.

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He told me he was gonna do it. You've heard me talk about Pastor Melton in, in prior

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Oklahoma, where I've gone many times. And again, I actually have friends who have mocked me for going to places like where I was here in Louisiana, or now

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I'm in Minden, or going to prior Oklahoma. It's like, wow, you're sort of going backwards, aren't you?

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You know, and it's like, no, I'm not. I'm not going backwards at all. Some of the most incredible pastors and churches and people

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I meet in areas like this. And I think that's absolutely awesome.

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Well, some of you know, Pastor Melton. I don't, you know, I didn't, I didn't pull it out.

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I should have. I think it's over there. Um, yeah, I've showed it to you.

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I'm not gonna get it right now. It's right across the way from me there. But Pastor Melton makes those incredible knives.

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Hand forged. He makes everything on that knife. I watched the process of him making the knife he made for me.

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Damascus steel, he has a forge. He, I mean, and he does all the work himself.

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It's not like he has a business like type model. He's a pastor of a church, but he loves to forge steel and make beautiful things.

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That's what he's been doing. And by the way, he's, he's responsible for a lot of what

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I'm sitting in right now. He was the first, I asked him, he has a 30 foot pole behind RV.

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And he was, he was the one that told us to get a diesel first. He's the one that said to get a fifth wheel, not a pole behind.

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You know, he was the one that has, we should call him the troublemaker from, from Oklahoma because he was behind a lot of that stuff.

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Well, he is going to forge one of those incredible once in a lifetime style knives and donate it to the ministry so we can auction it off for the fundraiser for the new, the new fifth wheel.

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Somebody's gonna get something that they're gonna really, really like. So I mean, that's, that's really cool.

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And you know, we've had some churches saying they're gonna help and it's, it's really exciting.

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And it's very, very encouraging to me to be out here on the road and to have that kind of thing.

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I mean, I'm at a really small and I do mean small RV park, ma and pa, nobody even here when you check in type of a situation, which is sort of what you expect this far out where I am.

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And yet the encouragement is, is fantastic. It's great.

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In fact, I, I won't go into detail, obviously, but I, you know, I even spent the entire drive up here, which wasn't too bad, but I didn't even stop today.

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The entire drive up here on the phone, talking with some, with some folks about important things and redeeming the time.

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And, and it's, it's great. Oh, oh, oh. And sorry,

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I have to do this. I know we don't have a lot of time today, but that's okay. I've only got a few topics to look at, but that, oh, there it is.

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Yeah. I have, let's see.

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Can I, can I make that big? I'm not sure. How do

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I, I'm not sure that I'm set up to share screen. We didn't talk about that and we were in a rush. So I'm not sure if I can even do this now that I think about it.

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Okay. All right. Yeah. There she is.

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I'm not trying to, I'm not trying to make anyone jealous, but I'm doing a debate defending the

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LSB as superior to the KJV. And so the only thing I asked for from Jeffrey Rice was that LSB.

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And you can't really see it. There's a, I think there's another picture where you can see it.

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Yeah, there you go. That one's mine. That's got my name, my name on it. And so that's the

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LSB I'll have in the debate on, on Saturday, I believe it is with Thomas Ross.

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And so I'm sort of excited about that. Just, just a little bit to have that.

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You might say, don't you already have an LSB bound by him? Yes, but it's in goatskin and it's buttery soft, wonderful, but you don't travel with it.

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Not if, not unless you just want to rip it up because that goatskin isn't meant for being mistreated at all.

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But this is a different kind of leather and it's much, much tougher and, and won't get all torn up while I'm traveling.

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So that'll be, that'll be super cool. Pretty excited about that. No, no two ways about it.

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So heading there this weekend, I think today was the last, maybe the last day.

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I'm not sure if there it's already closed or what, but I saw something about the 13th being the last day to get tickets.

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Keith Foskey is going to be there. Brother Rapport's going to be there.

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It's going to be very, very enjoyable. And Keith said he's going to bring his sweater vest so we can have a sort of sweater vest dialogue.

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He said he couldn't afford a Coogee. Look, once again, folks, here's, here's the secret. Here's the secret.

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My favorite Coogees are not Coogees. My favorite

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Coogees are Tundras. And Tundra is a Canadian company.

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I guess I shouldn't say that too loud or they'll stop selling it to me or something. But Tundra is the

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Canadian version of Coogee. And honestly, my favorite, what look like Coogees, are actually

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Tundras. And so if you search for Tundra on eBay, you'll see that they're normally half to a third price of Coogees.

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And you have to be careful. The new Coogees are all made in China. It's sort of like, why bother? All the good

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Coogees were made in Australia back in the 90s and early 2000s before they outsourced to China.

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But Keith said he couldn't afford a Coogee, so he's going to wear a sweater vest. And so I suppose that means I'll probably have to wear a sweater vest at some point as well.

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I don't know. Okay. I did want to mention this one.

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Let me see if I can. Well, that's not going to do any good to do that right now.

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There it is. And share. And is that full screen,

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Rich? Or is it really small? I can't. It is.

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Okay. I can't tell on my own. About a week ago, some fellow who

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I do not know by the name of Chris Currie, it says Chris Dell Currie, maybe it's Chris Currie, I don't know, was writing to Jeremiah Hurt.

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Now, some folks were, you know, getting nasty on Twitter. It happens every once in a while. And he says, there was a time when

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JW, that's me, was a blessing to the church, but those days have long been gone.

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His attitude, how he mocks true believers who disagree with him, and also his new theology are a dumpster fire.

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And I hear his daughter isn't too far behind in following in his track. So I have to wonder, when was it that I was a blessing to the church?

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And why aren't I now? My attitude, mocking true believers who disagree with him.

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I don't know what that's about. And my new theology. I didn't know

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I had a new theology. In fact, most of the people criticizing me are criticizing me for not changing my theology from what

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I was teaching in the 80s and 90s. Twitter's such an odd, strange place.

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But then, and I hear his daughter isn't too far behind and following in his tracks. You know, y 'all just haven't figured out that trying to take shots, trying to take shots at summer does not work overly well.

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You don't want to take her on, and she will, yeah, you won't do well in a situation like that, just so you know.

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And she is encouraged, and I am encouraged, every time someone says, well, that apple didn't fall very far from the tree.

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It's like, oh, yeah, that's good. We're very happy that you recognize that, and we don't take any offense out of them.

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So, to Brother Chris, my recollection is I did ask for some explanation of that.

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But, you know, after a day or two, who can find anything on Twitter, you know?

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I can't. You have to go searching, and even when you have to go searching, you gotta scroll and scroll, and while I'm on the road, that's not going to do it good.

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By the way, just to clarify something, when

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I was in Absolutus, it's an interesting name of the city.

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Anyways, where I was down there, outside of Lafayette, how's that? Just a little bit north of Lafayette. That's better.

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Anyway, while I was there, we were discussing the subject of Roman Catholicism, and the pastor,

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I think I may have mentioned this, the pastor got a phone call from the local diocese. Now, this is unusual. This is not, to my knowledge, has not happened when

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I've spoken someplace before, and he said the person outside the phone was very angry, very, very angry that they would even consider questioning

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Roman Catholicism, and we will retaliate from the pulpit, he was told.

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Okay, well, that's interesting. Hope you do. Let's start a conversation, and of course, you know, we offered to send a representative.

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We can have a dialogue. Oh, no, no, no, nothing like that's going to happen. And Joel, the pastor, he said, you know, that basically what was grieving him was the fact that many of the

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Baptists in the area were not only giving in to what we might call the ecumenical impulse, but it's one thing if you start compromising your own beliefs, but to say you still believe the same things you believed, but then you don't make application in regards to where that is fundamentally different, definitionally different with Roman Catholicism just doesn't make any sense.

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It's self -contradictory, and so he wanted to get a conversation going, and we certainly did that from what he said, his conversations with pastors in the area was very encouraging.

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Part of what I said was a reminder to some people, and part of what I said was new information. They just didn't know what

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Roman Catholicism taught on these particular issues, and we defanged the opposition the first night, and I had words of criticism for my fellow non -Catholics.

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For example, last evening, I talked about the Mass and the whole doctrine of salvation.

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I said, you know, the fact is most of us have pretty much an emotional doctrine of the cross rather than biblical doctrine of the cross.

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It's one of the reasons that since the 1990s, you go back to the

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Fatal Flaw, my first book, the Fatal Flaw, available on Kindle. The first book

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I wrote addressed the Roman Catholic doctrine of the Mass from a reformed perspective.

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When you have a specific biblical doctrine that demonstrates the perfect unity of Father, Son, and Spirit in accomplishing the redemption of God's people through the sacrificial work of Christ, so that he has entered into the holy place, in their place, we have an anchor in the holy place.

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He is able to save to the uttermost because he ever lives to make intercession. He has obtained eternal redemption.

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The repetitive sacrifices are an anamnesis, a reminder of sin, all the way through Hebrews.

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Those were all Hebrew texts, 7, 9, and 10. When you have that as a whole biblical balanced doctrine of the cross, then you see why

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Roman Catholicism cannot give you peace. Why Roman Catholicism will tell you that you have to avoid the sin of presumption, and that you can lose the grace of justification by the commission of immortal sin.

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All of these things. Why? Because they have no finished sacrifice.

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Making sure the truck is locked. Sorry. They have no finished sacrifice. Oh yes, they'll say, oh no, there was only one bloody sacrifice.

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That's true, but the Mass is a perpetuatory sacrifice in an unbloody form, and it does not perfect anyone for whom it is made.

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You are not perfected by coming to the cross. You have to keep coming to the Mass over and over and over and over and over again.

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You can still die impure, go to purgatory, or you can still die and lose the grace of justification by the commission of immortal sin, having gone to the cross 10 ,000 times.

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That's the foundation. That's the issue. Yet how many non -Catholics, evangelicals,

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Baptists, whatever term you want to use, how many when they approach Roman Catholicism are approaching secondary issues, looks issues, you shouldn't wear that kind of clothing, you shouldn't have that big cross on, it's all secondary stuff, not the key central stuff.

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The first night, I'm talking about sola scriptura,

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I'm talking about authority, I'm talking a little bit about the papacy, Francis, you have to talk about Francis today, nothing you can do to avoid that.

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But I'm also basically saying, look, if you're just here to get ammunition for your Facebook group, to have a

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Facebook debate with Roman Catholics, that's not why I'm here, and that's not why you should be here. I did have a chance to talk with a

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Catholic on the second night. I didn't see him the third night, which was disappointing, but we were in competition with the

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Super Bowl. And one of the things he did say is,

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I would like to say that you do obviously take pains to accurately represent what we believe, right?

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That's how you show respect to people. That's how you show respect to people, show that you care about them, the reason you're talking about these things, because you care about these things, these are eternal things.

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So we started defaying the opposition right up front, though I really wonder how many of those who are angry that we did what we did will even take the time to watch the videos.

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They're going to be posted hopefully by the end of the week. But take a look, take a listen.

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These were not digital presentations. I decided not to go that direction. I had them with me, but I decided, you know,

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I've done that many times in the past. This was a little bit more conversational,

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I guess. And the pastor said last night, you started preaching.

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I said, yeah, I did. I started preaching last night because I went into the Hebrew text, I went into why it is that we can have peace with God, and how the

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Roman Catholic understanding of the mass, the compensatory sacrifice, robs people of that peace.

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And that's why we're doing what we're doing. It's not hatred, it's not sheep stealing, it's trying to create sheep, because that's what the gospel does.

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And so pray for Opelousas, that's what it is, for the area around Opelousas, Lafayette, for the churches in that area.

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Pray that the ministry you've done here this weekend would bear fruit, and that there would be many opportunities that the believers who attended would be emboldened to lovingly address these issues, because that was our desire, and Lord willing, that's what's going to come from it.

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So there you go. And like I said, tomorrow night we'll be talking about the

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Trinity, and I guess there's a lot of oneness folks in this area. And so that will be a wonderful opportunity to do that.

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Let me see if I can pull this up, because again, it's

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Facebook stuff, and I've never fully understood Facebook.

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Stephen Boyce, troublemaker from wherever Stephen is, Stephen's troublemaker wherever he goes,

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Stephen Boyce posted a comment. Yeah, here we go.

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Here's what Stephen said. Now just hold on, because you're gonna get whiplash here, all right?

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This is your daily reminder that when you read your Bible, the chapter, verse, and book divisions are not inspired.

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These came much later in history. There are no secret codes or prophecy hidden within the numbers and book order.

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Have a great day. Okay, now Stephen's a younger guy than me, but I remember, when was this?

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Was this the mid -90s? Yeah, late 90s.

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Remember the Bible code stuff? Some of you don't. Some of you don't. You're too young to remember it.

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But there was a craze for a while with Bible codes.

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It's biblical numerics. It happens every few decades, I guess. But it was right at the time that the internet was starting to take off.

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And so it had a little bit more life than it normally does. And we did programs about it and pointed out the absurdities of it.

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And there's even Quran codes. In fact, Shabir Ali, I don't know that does it anymore, might.

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In fact, he probably does, but I don't know. So when he was younger, he, number 19, and was really into, and you'll run into Muslims that'll talk about all these special signs of inspiration in the

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Quran that are based on numbers and how many words and all that kind of stuff. And Christians do the exact same thing with the

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Bible. King James onlyists are really susceptible to it.

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They will do all sorts of stuff with, you know, this word is the middle word in the

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King James of this psalm, and there's this many verses. And if you divide 1611 by this, you get this.

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Seriously, it's all over the place. They're really, really into it. And so he's right.

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I mean, the verse numerations that we have today, obviously,

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Stephanus 1551, that's where they come from. And so I mean, that's long after the writing of the scriptures.

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And all these things are very, very true. It's a basic statement. It's a basic statement. What kind of responses?

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Well, if you post it on social media, you post it on social media, you better be prepared to get some weird stuff back that may have nothing to do whatsoever with what you were intending to actually say.

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But who could have thought that you could post something as simple as what

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Stephen did, the chapter and verse divisions are not inspired, and get a response from Leighton Flowers.

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Leighton Flowers, yes, the doctor provisionist himself,

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Leighton Flowers, responded to Stephen and said, well, and share.

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But if all comes to pass in accordance with a sovereign determinative decree as taught by most colonists, then what is the point in mentioning that the chapter divisions aren't inspired?

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Aren't they as equally brought to pass by the decree of will of God? Just a thought.

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Okay. Now, we have pointed out many, many times that Brother Flowers struggles with categories.

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Really, really struggles with categories. And here is a real clear example.

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And Stephen tried to point that out to him. And Leighton, as Leighton does,

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Leighton, on one side, Leighton wants to portray himself as this kind, smushy, fluffy panda bear type guy, you know.

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But the reality is Leighton loves to dig his heels in. He loves to double down when you respond to him.

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And so here's, let me see if this one might be really tough to do. Nope. This should work.

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Yeah, you kind of do. God brings about what words he wants written on the page by inspiration which is decreed.

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He likewise decrees all things come to pass, albeit by other means. Therefore, he also decided that the chapters he divided would,

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I guess it should be, chapters would be divided in exactly the manner in which they are divided and the verses numbered exactly as they are, right?

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Whether God determines something by means of inspiration or some other means, it's still his doing, isn't it? Why treat one thing as more or less as from God given that foundational belief.

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So as we have seen over and over again, Leighton detests the concept of God's sovereign decree.

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There cannot be a sovereign decree or everything that is a part of the sovereign decree is unreal, worthless, we're all just puppets.

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And he's heard us say ends and means, primary causes, secondary causation, all that kind of stuff so often that I just think it goes in one ear and out the other.

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So that you can have us saying that there is in God's decree the special, central, vitally important giving of scripture.

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That scripture is going to be unique. Scripture is going to be one of a kind.

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Scripture is going to have a central role in God's purposes for the church and in God's people and their relationship to him.

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It's his self -revelation and the only thing that we have been given that is theanoustos,

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God -breathed, are the scriptures. He knows all that.

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He knows that that's what Calvinists say. But if the decree is the decree, then there is no difference between God's central purpose.

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And think of the sovereign power that God has extended in the creation of scripture.

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Think of the miracle that men spoke from God as they're carried along by the Holy Spirit.

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Think of the creation, the fact that because God uses men, then he chooses to use specific men.

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And he orders their life so that they are alive at that time.

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And you have Paul. And just think how important Paul's upbringing is.

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Think about just the random absurdity of open theism and processed theology and all of the stuff that tries to get around God's decree.

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Because plainly, Paul was meant by God for a particular time in a particular place.

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And all those other systems, Paul could have walked around a corner in Tarsus and gotten run over by a

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Roman chariot and died. And then God would have been trying plan

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B and then plan C and then plan D and then plan E. It's just absurd.

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God chose to use Paul in the same way that he specifically, for his purposes, brought about the circumstances that lead to the little epistle to Philemon, right?

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John, he gave John a long life so that he could be on the

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Isle of Patmos and have the vision and the revelation of Jesus Christ.

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These are all parts of God's decree. This is what Christians have always believed anyways. And if there's no decree, then you can't bring all these things together.

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And when you think of the myriads and myriads of choices by human beings that come together to form just the background fabric of what then produces scripture, it is truly amazing.

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It really is. And so you have this unique scripture.

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But from Leighton Flowers' perspective, that is no different than, well, every time you pull into an

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RV park, I don't have one right near me. Well, I didn't at this one. But you pull into a KOA, you have to go in the office, and they have this printout.

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And they're all really colorful. Oh, here come the RV cats. The sun's gone down.

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Here come the cats. Happens a lot. Really, really does. They're all coming out, and they're gonna start begging and stuff.

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Anyway, they have these colorfully printed brochures that have the map of where you're supposed to go, and the bathroom codes, and the

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Wi -Fi code, and all the rest of that kind of stuff. So from Leighton's perspective,

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Romans chapter 8, if there is a decree of God, is no less inspired than the

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KOA brochure. I think my next stop is at a

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KOA, so I'll be giving one of those things again. And they're equal, because God's sovereign decree.

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And when you put it that way, you realize just how absurd this is. Now what he's saying is, well,

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God decreed what Stephanus was going to do. Because if God decrees whatsoever comes to pass, then

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Stephanus's insertion of the verse numbers when he inserted the verse numbers. And I've heard that a

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Roman Catholic had done that before Stephanus, but it didn't take. I don't know, because it's

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Stephanus's verse numbering that's become universally accepted. But I heard somebody say that there was actually someone before that.

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I've verified that. But anyway, if God foreordains whatsoever comes to pass, then

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God foreordained the verse numbers, and therefore

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Stephen Boyce should not be telling us that they're not inspired. Except that having a divine decree is not the same thing as inspiring everything.

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There is such an obvious difference, obvious difference, between the category of special inspiration, that which is

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Theodonstos, and that which is not, even under the decree. And this is just flowers.

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Flowers just, not only does he squish down the divine and the human looking at time and all things related to that, down to this two -layer level, instead of this two -dimensional level, instead of the three -dimensional level that it is.

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But here, what he's doing is as a means of attack upon Reformed theology,

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Calvinism. Let's say that if you're a

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Calvinist, that means that the verse numbers are inspired. They're not inspired.

39:37

Are they part of God's sovereign decree? Yes. Does that make them inspired? No. The KOA brochure is a part of God's sovereign decree too.

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But it's not inspired. It's not Theodonstos. I guess if you just simply spend all your time trying to find ways to attack

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Reformed theology, which must be, there are times I really do feel belated, then

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I guess you can try to think that way. But it really does destroy all the real categories that exist in the real world that the rest of us really deal with and that Leighton does not.

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So sorry, Stephen, that you, hey, Stephen, you get to put up with weird stuff in your timeline just like I do.

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And so there you go. So another good guy out there, Stephen Boyce, sharp guy.

40:41

So many people I'm so appreciative of. Chris Arnzen and so many people that I learned from and that blessed me in what they're doing.

40:56

Rudy Jabouri, I should say something about Rudy and his family. They were there in Houston and very helpful.

41:01

Rudy picked me up and took me to dinner one night. And it was great seeing the kids. I hadn't seen them in years and years. They're huge now, obviously.

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That's what happens when you get old. You see people's kids. Last time you saw they were little. Now it's sort of natural how it works.

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I'm watching my grandkids grow up and I can't believe how fast that's happening. But anyways, I will stop reminiscing.

41:23

Rich is going to have to buy a little something that I have to sit on or something like that when

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I start reminiscing. Just stop me. Actually, he probably won't notice it because he's reminiscing too.

41:37

Just thinking about something else because we're both in the reminiscing age. That's sort of how things work.

41:44

One last thing. Another screenshot that I have here. This one's really interesting. And I'll just touch on this.

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Oh, you know what? Real quick. Cam. Cam Gayler.

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Hi, Cam. 44 minutes ago. Well, maybe more than 44 minutes ago now. Said, what's your opinion on the revival in Kentucky?

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I don't have a clue. The only way to evaluate something like this is in hindsight, after time has passed.

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Now, seeing some of the people that are going there makes me go, okay, this is going to implode and it's going to get ugly.

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That's very concerning. There may be something real going on and then all these false prophets will come flocking to it.

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And since it doesn't seem to be associated with a church where there could be sound people giving some kind of guidance, biblical guidance, that concerns me.

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If it's just mainly emotion and singing and stuff like that. But honestly, what does it produce in the long run?

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And that's not a good enough answer for a lot of people. They don't like the long run answers, but very frequently the only sound answer is a long run answer.

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And that's sort of what our society is more of a microwave society. You want it done now, but doesn't always work that way.

43:28

Okay. Last thing I wanted to get to here.

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We'll put the words in the right order. Edward Fazer is a

43:41

Roman Catholic scholar and he's a scholar of Thomas. And there are many who believe he's just, whatever he says about Thomas, that's right.

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The reality is there have always been different schools of Thomistic interpretation.

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He's just one of them. But Thomas is just such the big thing with so many people now.

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And Edward Fazer was responding to an article by Thomas Reese S .J.

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That means he's a Jesuit. And today Jesuits are the ultra -liberals of Roman Catholicism, which is ironic given how they started.

44:29

And it's also ironic given Mitch Pacquiao, who is a Jesuit, who is not an ultra -liberal at all.

44:36

Even he said he was probably the most conservative Jesuit that he knew back when we debated back in the early 90s.

44:42

Well, we debated, actually we debated in the early 2000s. So we debated, we did debate, those five debates we did were over the course of like, what about 12 years, 13 years, maybe even more.

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Still like Mitch. Mitch is a great guy. He really is. And I pray for Mitch. I really do.

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He had massive heart attack a while back. So I don't see him as much out there doing this thing. Anyway, so Thomas Reese had evidently written an article called, the subtitle anyways,

45:15

What Would an Effective Eucharistic Revival Look Like? Well, there's a lot

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I can say about that. And when the video of last night's presentation from Opelousas comes out, you'll get my sermon on that.

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But Edward Fazer quotes a section from Thomas Reese.

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Let me read Thomas Reese's section first. Okay. And I'm not going to put this on the screen.

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It's probably a little bit too small and stuff. Since my critics often accuse me of heresy, before I go further, let me affirm that I believe in the real presence of Christ in the

45:54

Eucharist. I just don't believe in transubstantiation because I don't believe in prime matter, substantial forms and accidents that are part of Aristotelian metaphysics.

46:07

Thomas Aquinas used Aristotelianism, the avant -garde philosophy of his time, to explain the

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Eucharist to his generation. What worked in the 13th century will not work today.

46:19

If he were alive today, he would not use Aristotelianism because nobody grasps it in the 21st century.

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So first, forget transubstantiation. Better to admit that Christ's presence in the

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Eucharist is an unexplainable mystery that our little minds cannot comprehend. Second, remember the purpose of the

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Eucharist is not to worship Jesus. Now obviously there's a lot of stuff that you can interact with in something like that coming from a

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Jesuit. If you understand Roman Catholic history and theology, look, if there's a meaningful definition to Roman Catholic theology, then he is a heretic.

47:07

You may say, since my critics often accuse me of heresy, but that's heresy. The reality is that transubstantiation has been defined by Rome in a dogmatic fashion.

47:22

And yes, it came from Thomas. And so it is interesting, our new

47:30

Thomistic fanboys amongst the Baptists, I don't think they've really thought much about the fact that the central problem with Roman Catholicism is its doctrine of the

47:49

Eucharistic sacrifice. And its doctrine of the Eucharistic sacrifice was defined by Thomas Aquinas.

47:58

That's just the reality. And so a

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Jesuit who says, forget transubstantiation, you can't, makes me really wonder where Francis is on these things.

48:19

In fact, I wonder if anyone has done a, I wonder if some of my Roman Catholic friends have done any study, some research into the things that Francis has written about and talked about as Pope, and how much time he has spent and effort he's spent in really focusing in on historic

48:45

Roman Catholic dogma on the doctrine of transubstantiation. That'd be really interesting.

48:52

I wouldn't have time to do it, wouldn't even have the resources to do it, but I would really be interested in seeing something like that.

48:59

So this is heresy. But obviously, as a

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Protestant, I just don't believe in transubstantiation because I don't believe in prime matter, substantial forms, and accidents that are part of risk -sharing metaphysics.

49:17

Hallelujah! Neither do I! And all of my

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Baptist fanboy brothers that are buying into it, I'm like, okay, there you go.

49:31

Yeah. Anyway, so what does Edward Fazer say in response to Thomas Reece?

49:39

Because he quoted that part of the article in this tweet. Quote, it seems that Pope St.

49:47

Pius X was on to something when he taught that, quote, inside quote, all teachers of philosophy and sacred theology should be warned that if they deviated so much as a step in metaphysics, especially from Aquinas, they exposed themselves to grave risk.

50:11

End quote, end quote. So here's Edward Fazer, considered to be leading

50:20

Thomistic scholar. What a life that must be. All teachers of philosophy and sacred theology should be warned that if they deviated so much as a step in metaphysics, especially from Aquinas, they exposed themselves to grave risk.

50:43

Well, all righty then. How central is

50:49

Thomas' Aristotelianism to the Roman Catholic doctrine?

50:57

And I've never had anyone disagree with me on this. I have said for a very long time, and you need to understand this too, the central act of worship in Roman Catholicism is the

51:12

Mass, the Eucharistic sacrifice. So that brings in sacerdotalism and the priest and all the rest of that stuff.

51:20

But the central act of worship, the defining act of Roman Catholicism, is transubstantiation and the

51:29

Eucharistic sacrifice. And I don't know, you know, maybe this

51:35

Jesuit might go, well, you know, I've been thinking about that. I don't know. But I think the vast majority of Orthodox conservative

51:43

Roman Catholics would go, yep, that's true. And yet to arrive at that Roman Catholic understanding requires that you do not deviate so much as a step in metaphysics, especially from Aquinas, without exposing yourself to grave risk.

52:12

So if Thomistic metaphysics is the very ground of the theology proper resourcement taking place right now, how is that not the same metaphysics that are a part of, as Rhys says here, prime matter, substantial forms, and accidents that are part of Aristotelian metaphysics?

52:34

I hear all sorts of Baptists talking about that stuff today, right? It's the same stuff.

52:42

Oh, it's right over here. It's wrong over there. And you get to make that decision?

52:49

On what basis again? Hmm. Interesting.

52:54

Interesting. Yeah. I don't know how long this

53:05

Thomistic revival is going to last. I have said more than once, reading

53:18

Thomas chills my soul. It's cold, it's arid, it's dry. There are a few people that I can read and feel less satisfied, even when he's saying true things, to be honest with you.

53:39

But there are certain kinds of people that are not overly balanced in their lives and in what fascinates them.

53:49

And so I can see for them, I can see people 30 years from now, now they're going to be off someplace other than amongst the

53:56

Baptists by then. Still very much going, yeah, it was in 20, 2021.

54:03

I first started realizing that it was 2016 when I first started realizing Thomas was all this stuff.

54:12

I can't see it having the broad appeal. I have to wonder if even when all these books come out that are being written right now,

54:22

Crossways putting all this money into Thomas for Protestants and all these groups have started that are having conferences and doing their talks and everyone's sitting around reading the

54:34

Summa and the Summa Concert Gentiles and all the rest of that kind of fun stuff. And we're all learning our

54:39

Latin and getting our tonser cuts and all that kind of stuff. I can't see that lasting very long.

54:46

I really wonder even by the time those books come out, that there'll be much of a market for them, but we'll see.

54:52

We'll see. Some of us have tried to warn everyone and say, you know what?

54:59

There's a better way. There is a better way. And there is. So, a little short because we got started a little bit late, but that's all right.

55:07

I've got a little gathering to get to and that's what dividing lines on the road are all about.

55:15

They don't have to be one hour long or whatever it is and we do them when we can get them done and hope to bless you in the process.

55:25

Just mention again, I'll try to remember to link to it, probably later tonight when

55:30

I have an opportunity of blogging all this. The little video I put up, if you haven't seen it yet on our project and what we're trying to do in expanding what we're able to do on the road as I travel.

55:45

I look at the rest of this year, I'm going to be on the road a lot. And there's some great opportunities in the future, but there's some things we'd like to be able to do to make that safer for me, overcome some design issues in the unit that I'm in right now.

56:04

But the main thing is get ourselves something other than the wobbly kitchen table at the back of the unit to be able to do what we're doing.

56:21

And if you can help us with that, there is a link, go to donate at almein .org,

56:28

donate button, click on the pull -down menu, bottom one, AOMobile Studio. And very, very thankful for everyone who's already said yes, we want you to keep doing what you're doing and be out there doing what you're doing the way you're doing it.

56:43

So, all right, thanks for watching the program today. I'm not sure what the future holds.

56:50

Should probably be okay for Thursday, I think. But I haven't looked at the exact number of hours of driving

56:57

I've got and things like that. So, we'll see. We will definitely be wanting to get together.

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And then there's going to be all sorts of cool stuff at the conference going on there. So, keep an eye out for recordings there.

57:08

And don't forget the debate as well with Thomas Ross coming up. All that this week.