Andy Stanley and Leighton Flowers discuss Calvinism

When you want to talk about Calvinism's impact on a local church, what do you do? You bring in someone that doesn't even understand Calvinism and then discuss it.

The Show’s Premise and Why the Discussion Matters

Welcome to the rap report with Andrew. Rap report where we provide biblical interpretations and applications. This is a ministry of striving for eternity. More content or to request a speaker a seminar for your church go to striving for eternity.

Okay, so recently if you haven't heard Layton flowers had Andy Stanley on to his podcast to discuss Well Calvinism's impact on the local church. We want to discuss that I'm gonna say right off the bat that I do Know Layton flowers personally.

I do like him personally, but I disagree with him strongly in his Theology he and I both know were that we disagree with one another but we can still get along. So there's none of what I'm saying is Personal rips on on him.

I don't know Andy Stanley at all. However, I do think that if you listen to his podcast, I'll drop the link in the show notes. But if you listen to the podcast what you end up seeing is that first off he has this interview with Andy Stanley because Andy Stanley decided to donate money to Basically soteriology 101 which is the Podcast and ministry that Layton flowers is doing so he's got someone that was a big-name donor got him in to do an interview.

Do I fault him for that? Well, no, I mean in one sense, you know, it makes sense. He's wanting to have someone who has a big name and can can add. Maybe what he thinks is credibility. I'm sorry. I don't think Andy Stanley would add credibility at some point we'll deal with the topic that he had said of You know unhinging the Old Testament from the New Testament and from the church and yet the reality you you can't do that.

Just biblically you just can't do that. So here's the thing as we examine this I do want to say that he's has him on he's discussing Calvinism's impact on the local church two men who don't really understand Calvinism as you're gonna see we're gonna play clips and You're gonna hear that Andy Stanley admits he doesn't know this this isn't the realm he is in but some of the things they do say is just very enlightening and I want to deal with some of that stuff and really, here's the thing I Would like us here at the rap report to be mindful of the fact that people disagree with one another.

I am Okay with any of you disagreeing with me. Don't just give me your opinion though. You want to disagree with me come to me with Scripture? Okay, that's the thing what we have is many people who try to be discerning and really all they are is attacking and What you end up seeing is in this podcast in my opinion is two men who do not understand the opposing position Layton flowers has been told by many many people who study Calvinism who?

Teach Calvinism who understand Calvinism that his description of Calvinism is a strongman argument that his view of Calvinism is not the view that anybody that holds the Calvinism or most people the majority of people that he claims as far as Calvinists would hold to and so what you end up seeing is Andy Stanley will do the same they will teach really a hyper Calvinism a View of determinism that most Calvinist those who hold to Calvinism would disagree with.

There's going to be extremes at either end and any time that you have to make arguments for your point by going to the extremes. That's a logical fallacy. So I want us to be aware that I'm saying that I think that these two gentlemen Who are talking on Calvinism?

I don't think are doing a fair representation of what Calvinism believes. I Do not have to hold to a position to Rightly define that position. I am a Baptist. Okay, I believe in the principles of Baptists Baptist thinking and teaching and doctrine yet when I was in a Presbyterian Church preaching from a Presbyterian pulpit and Teaching and we had a first-time visitor who comes into the church.

They come to me because I am the gentleman that they saw at the pulpit. So this gentleman comes to me and wants to find out what this church believes. His question Was that he grew up Baptist and he said being the fact that he grew up Baptist.

He would like to know what this church teaches on the issue of Baptism that was his question. He wants to know that specifically. So how do I answer? Do I give him all the reasons that this church is wrong?

That I just spoke from their pulpit. I Don't need to do that. Do I disagree short and that's exactly what I did. I said listen, I happen to be a Baptist so I would disagree with the Presbyterians view of baptism.

But let me explain to you what their view is here at this church and what the Presbyterian view of baptism is and I went into explaining the view through the covenants and how Baptism is entering into a covenant relationship how that includes bringing the children into a covenant relationship with God not saving them.

But bringing them into a covenant relationship with God and I went through this at the end of this the pastor Took me aside as we went for lunch and said Andrew. I gotta tell you I wish that people in my church Understood Presbyterian baptism as well as you a Baptist understand it.

That's the thing if you're going to disagree with the position at least Understand the position. That's what I asked. That's what I try to do. Am I perfect? No, I'm not gonna be perfect. There's gonna be times that I misrepresent other people's positions.

I don't do it. I hope Meaningfully and purposefully, but it will happen. Everyone's gonna have that happen. But when you build a ministry off of one topic and this is something that I Do think and do have issue with with Leighton on I and I've talked to him personally about this.

So I'm not saying anything that I haven't spoken directly to him about. I think Leighton may be able to have many things to offer the body of Christ. But when we were doing a Bible study online Bible study on Ephesians He kept making it about Calvinism when the text wasn't even dealing with the issue of Calvinism he realized that and that's where I see I personally see a blind spot with him is that for him everything is about Calvinism and he's built a ministry based on that and Anytime someone makes a ministry on one thing it can become blind spot to them because they see that and everything.

Guys if you're Calvinists, you know that phrase that I think James White Started or whoever started it called cage stage. Where someone becomes a Calvinist and that they see it in everything and they want everyone to believe what they're believing on Calvinism.

So you have that on both ends? Okay, let's be fair about it. But some of the things that we end up seeing here I Think are incorrect and Wrong assumptions to be made about a teaching in this case Calvinism and I want to go through some of these quotes.

Play them saying it so that you hear it and we don't have time to play through the full episode I try to do usually do that play through everything. So you get the context I will link it so you have the link so that you can go and listen and see if I've taken the quotes out of Context but here's the thing you end up here seeing and there'd be early on.

They ended up discussing the difference between Calvinists when it comes to men and women in the churches and Let's listen to what Andy Stanley says about this.

Women, Calvinism, and the Claim That Women Are Flocking to Jesus

What was the surprise in the first century when it came to the people who followed Jesus? It was the number of women who flocked to his message because Jesus elevated the status of women consistently and immediately.

So if there is a theology that put is as Essentially on the surface more in any way offensive to females or to women. I think that's something I just think that's something we should pay attention to it.

Well back to your practical and also.

Logically speaking. Here's another issue. Is that if Calvinism is true then God has ordained for more men to accept Calvinism than women in other words? God for some reason has sovereignly decreed and has determined for men to get it and for women to reject it for whatever reason.

Okay, let's let's look at this first off. Is it true that in the first century the women were flocking. Well, when we look at the scriptures, we see 12 male disciples. We have Mary. We have Martha. We have his mother Mary.

Not too many other women are mentioned there in those early years when you go on and you start looking at the other people mentioned like Timothy and Luke and Silas and lots of other men. Well, you have Priscilla and Aquila.

So there's a woman with her husband. In other words, you don't have a record for it to support the claim that women were flocking to that now. There's a reason that you end up seeing that the fact that you see more men in Calvinism.

I Would say that part of this is twofold one. You're gonna see and I'll deal with this in a later quote, but you're gonna see who it is. That's out there Calvinist typically are also taking a position that women shouldn't be taking a teaching role.

So who is naturally going to be the ones taking a more? Forthright more open role in teaching it's not going to be the women. Because that's not what Calvinist typically would end up arguing is the role of the women to be teaching.

So they're gonna base it on those who are blogging writing books teaching at pulpits Online doing what teaching if you have a position that the men should be teaching then women wouldn't be doing that.

It's really simple. The argument that somehow in the first century Women were flocking. Now here's the thing to always note and this is just a good thing to do. Look when someone makes a statement and look how they support it.

You see Andy Stanley did not support that argument at all. He made a claim and moved on. He makes a statement with no support and then uses that to make a conclusion. Now when I made the response, what did I do?

I gave you names that you can go look up in Scripture. You can go through and look at all the men That are mentioned in the New Testament and all the women mentioned in the New Testament and you're gonna find an overwhelming number of men for the same reason that we would see this in a more of a tradition of teaching that puts male teachers and not female teachers because.

You're only gonna hear from the men. Were there more women? I'm sure there were more women that were then we have recorded. I'm sure there's more men also. But you can't make an argument from silence when you say that there was a majority of women flocking.

The scriptures just don't support that there were women that's that came and followed Christ. But there were far more men that did so so the conclusion He makes is based off of baseless claim that he doesn't support and then he makes a conclusion.

It's somehow Calvinism is wrong because of this view and then then he gives a quote from Moeller.

Respecting Other Christian Leaders While Disagreeing

Wow. Well, here's I have a quote. I didn't know if this would be appropriate, but I'll bring it up now. I mean you mentioned Al Moller earlier. Al I think he must have a man crush on me. I don't know.

He can't quit talking about me. I'm not sure I've only met him once and.

Okay, stop. What what did I just hear? I'm sorry, but is this the way you should ever be speaking of. A fellow if you're gonna say a fellow brother in Christ a leader in a church in a in a seminary.

That you should speak to him in in this way. I mean you mentioned Al Moller earlier. Al. I think he must have a man crush on me. I don't know. He can't quit talking about me.

I'm not sure he has a man crushes. Is that the way that you should be speaking about? Somebody who is a leader in a church. I I'm sorry, but to me that comes off as very narcissistic very Self-focused and and to be say, oh he is a man crush on me that he doesn't stop talking about me.

But Andy does he talk about you in a good way or is he warning people about you think about that? It's not that he's speaking of you praising you because he's got a man crush on you. It's because it more that he's warning people it seems about some of the things that you're saying.

Because it seems like you're going off on a bad path and people are warning it. That's the thing. Look folks. There may be some here who really like Andy Stanley. I Can understand that but you have to ask why is it because of his father?

Some do let's be fair some do but the reality is is that there are many who think he's going down a bad path. He's on a trajectory. That's not healthy and Could lead to well false teaching. That's how many feel and and to sit here and to be like, oh, he has a man crush on me.

I just think that that is disrespectful way of speaking of Someone who is a teacher of God's Word someone who is a leader in the church someone who is a leader in a seminary. I Also think it's very narcissistic.

Let's go on to hear him talk about his quote.

I would love to talk to him. We did have one quick phone call about seven years ago anyway, he I am. I was at an ERLC conference a different one than the one that I was interviewed at and he opened the conference and he made this statement and I gasped out loud.

I Everybody else just kept taking notes. I went back and watched the message again to make sure I had not misheard and wrote the quote down and here's here's what dr Muller said talking about Southern Baptist Convention to your point.

He said the vast majority of people Who've ever been baptized by our people are our own offspring? We've met this. This is amazing. We've never been very evangelistic in terms of people who weren't those to whom we gave birth.

Okay, so this is an argument and and keep in mind This is an argument many make against Calvinism that they're not evangelistic. And the argument is that he's saying Remember the context context is how we understand things.

This is in the context of Calvinism's effect on a local church and the argument is that the local church is not evangelizing outside of their own family. Because of the Calvinism that's the assumption that's being led to be understood however.

What was it that Muller was quoting that was the Southern Baptist which include Andy Stanley and Layton flowers. The reality is many of you know that I'm very active in evangelism. Many of the evangelists around the country who are active in evangelism evangelism also happen to be Calvinists, that's right.

The the argument that Calvinists don't evangelize. Oh the hyper Calvinist. Yes. Yes. Okay, the people who think everything's determined, but that's the extreme. You don't argue from the extreme and so You end up seeing here in this argument that he's making.

He's trying to make these claims as if Calvinists don't Evangelize and this is somehow something that is only being done within the family. Listen to this as he continues with this because Layton's gonna weigh in on this.

I'm like that to me they should have hit pause on the whole conference and thing was a minute. The Southern Baptist Convention has never been evangelistic except toward the people to whom they gave birth.

So then I take that that shocking revelation and then try to line it up with his Calvinism. So to your point, it looks like God has selected more men than women and He selects primarily the children of believers as opposed to those who are not biologic.

I mean, so so well, here's I have okay. So here's the thing that you end up having. Okay, and The they're they're talking about God ordaining more men than women. Okay, first off note again. No support for that claim.

It's a statement. He made the statement earlier that there's more men than women that are coming into being Calvinist and therefore. Based on that baseless assumption. He never supported. I Listened to the entire Podcast.

I never heard him give support for that claim and yet he builds conclusion after conclusion. Based on that that somehow God ordains more men than women. God ordains whoever he chooses to her. Dane. That's the reality and and you're not going to be able to argue that I would say against Scripture because Scripture makes it really clear.

He uses things like in Ephesians where he says that he elected before the foundation of time. What does that mean? Now is there time for God? We're gonna have a new segment on this podcast that we're gonna start doing regularly.

We're gonna talk about the attributes of God. Why. Because the attributes of God are so important if you want to understand theology you must understand the attributes of God because that is gonna Clarify your theology and here you end up seeing that they really don't understand the attributes of God.

When God speaks about the beginning of time and something happening him him choosing something before there was time. There is no such thing as time to God. He's eternal. Therefore he's not bound by time when he speaks of before the foundation of time it is not to say that there was some point before there was time and then and God did something there and Then he started up time.

He's trying to say that you and I had absolutely nothing to do with our salvation because it happened all the way back then. That's when the election happened. The election can't be caused by something we do because it happened all the way back.

Before there was time and and then you get into the question. Well, how did God elect? We have to remember he's omniscient when you start trying to argue things about God. Doing something in time. Having to be bound by time and then having to be bound by knowledge that what thinks we would do you don't have the God of the Bible and They would disagree that they're doing that but this is the thing.

When did God Elect now if God elected before we were born. Just start there. We won't even deal with the phrase before the foundation of time. If God elected people to be saved before they were born then their choice had nothing to do with it and people will end up arguing as as Layton and others would probably make the case is that God knew in his omniscience what they would do and Therefore That was their choice their free will choice.

He would say is What God based the election on? Then God's not omniscient truly because he had to see what people would do. You see now you no longer have an omniscient God. You have a God who? has to rely on the thoughts of men to see what they're gonna do and they're gonna make a argument about Consistent Calvinism.

Well, I would say that the only consistent Arminian is Gonna be an open theist because you have to deny that God knows everything. Why. Because you have to say that man's free will choice is what determines their election?

Therefore God had to see what they would do and he can't know it. I would argue as many others that that's the only consistent position. They would disagree. I understand that That's where we end up having our disagreements but to argue that somehow God ordained more men than women based on what.

What is the basis just because there's more men in a teaching that's teaches that men should be doing the teaching. Well, duh, of course, there's gonna be more men that you know about by the way. There's more male teachers in the Arminian Southern Baptists the traditionalists they have more male teachers there, too.

Does that mean that more men shoes? Just think about that because see their argument does not apply only to Calvinism. Take their argument apply it to the traditionals position. There are far more traditionals writing and speaking when we say traditionals.

That's the terms that they use to refer to their position because they don't say there are Arminian. They don't use those terms. They say traditional fine. We'll use their terms in their terms. Who is it?

That's doing the bulk of the podcasting the bulk of the teaching the bulk of the writing blogging and all the kind. It's men in the Southern Baptist Convention that are the traditionals. It's not the women for the same reason.

Okay, so you got to be able to apply this and say does this count both ways? If this applies to the traditionals just as much as it does the Calvinist then it's not an argument against Calvinism. And this is just we got to be fair with this.

That's what I'm asking if Andy Stanley is going to be talking about the impact that Calvinism has on the on the church. Then you have to at least be fair with it. Now we get back to this issue of women.

Gender, Evangelism, and the Limits of Statistical Arguments

Let's hear what they say about this. I'll bet the male Calvinist Embrace that and the female Calvinist never ever get there. The maternal instinct would have a very difficult time. Reconciling the reality of being a mom with that theology just just a hunch.

Yeah, well the statistics do show that the resurging is very male dominated, right? Of course, it is very young male white dominated and I'm not trying to be racist in that comment I just it just happens to be the studies are showing that that most of the people in the young restless reform movement right now Are younger white males.

Now, that's not obviously across the board. Obviously, there's exceptions to that but that is predominantly what you're saying and even Piper addresses that issue rising.

Okay, and so here's the thing that applies to traditionalists as well. And he says he doesn't want to get racist, but he's like and white. Yes. He is getting racist there. I'm sorry, but you're the one emphasizing that and so when you end up making the arguments as they're making.

They're saying somehow that women have this maternal instinct that their children going to hell. That was the context their children going to hell who children who aren't saved that somehow they can't agree with this doctrine.

This is so hard because what he doesn't even realize I don't think. Where it does your theology come from your feelings? Because if that's your if that's where your theology is from you might as well be charismatic.

Okay, you might as well go and this isn't a dig on charismatics. I mean I care max would be honest and open about the fact that they are more of an emotional based theology emotional based worship and the reality is is.

That's what he's arguing that somehow the the problem with the theology is. The material instinct just they they can't go there and that's why it's more male dominated. The the reason it's more male-dominated is very simple because in this Teaching in these churches that would hold to this they would not have women teachers.

It's really that simple. Okay, and. The things that they're saying apply just as much to the. You know to the Traditionalists as well now I want to get to what Leighton said let me play this again.

I did right course it is very young male white dominated and I'm not trying to be racist in that comment I just it just happens to be. The studies are showing that that most of the people in the young restless reform movement right now are younger white males.

Okay, really, you know, there is a group just for women called theology gals. They have like 4 ,000 women that are reformed and they want to talk the theology. I mean there is a resurgence in Christianity.

That's what it is. It's not a male-female thing. You see how they're all basing this whole thing on. One thing that was said earlier. Just a claim made. No support for it. They continue to to redo this and yet where is the evidence?

Because the things they're saying now apply to their position as well their position. Their traditionalists have the same issue. They're mostly white. They're mostly male. Does does that mean that somehow they're in the wrong and If it's the case that it happens to be that there's more whites men in America where by the way 80 of America would be considered white.

Well, listen, I mean, let's say six is 60 to 80. So why wouldn't you expect in a country? That's majority white to have more white people. Teaching it's not that they're that there's some sort of out of balance thing there.

There's plenty of African Americans who are also very reformed and they recognize that but they put it in. Oh, that's just like an anomaly. No, there's a there's a resurgence within the african-american community for her for and you really want to take a look at it.

That's where there's a real surgeons going on. My you know as far as percentage wise. You can go go to the bar podcast go to the guys at the bar on the bar network and you're gonna hear a whole bunch of reformed African well, most of them african-american they now have the Pastors discussion.

So those guys aren't african-american, but they start they were the guys that started that are All african-americans who happen to also be reformed. Okay, they're Calvinists. There is a resurgence going on.

I just don't think that those are the circles that Andy Stanley and Layton flowers are in. To know that and so this is the thing when you're gonna make arguments like this. My plea is to Know the other side.

Don't just make Baseless arguments or conclusions or things like this that look I recognize to to Layton flowers crowd. Okay, his audience is anti Calvinist. Okay. This is going to feed right into his audience however.

The question you must ask is are the arguments valid. See, they're making arguments against Calvinism when those same arguments apply to them. Let's hear what they end up saying about parents because this is where you end up seeing here.

Parenting, Perseverance, and the Fear of Losing Children

They already mentioned this thing about mothers. Andy Stanley and Layton have some interesting things to say here.

Yeah, and that's been that's definitely been. One of my arguments is that it's not a tenable way of living life. And it is. How do you raise your kids that way?

I mean you were a parent when you were Calvinist, right? Yeah I mean I'm asking honestly, this is one of my questions for you is do you? allow your child to pray a prayer of repentance and salvation and then you just Hope it took and then when they repray it at 12 You hope that one took then they go to camp and they repray it again.

Are you as a parent and then when your child is 17 and decides he or she? It's gonna run off and kind of abandon faith. Do you think oh, no. No problems. Because they prayed that prayer when they're eight or do you mean what does a what do parents do when their children walk? away from faith.

Do they shrug and say They weren't one of the elects. Good thing. I have three other kids or what. What's the no.

I mean for me personally, it was there was probably a cognitive disconnect there. There was it would have to be as a parent. Yeah, but but I mean To be to be fair. I mean Piper does talk about In one of his broadcasts are one of his books.

He talks about his children and even saying, you know If God for whatever reason and his eternal purposes chose not to elect one of my children Then I then I must trust him and so there there is a sense in which Calvinist have to come to that Realization that maybe one of my babies Is loved by me more than God, right?

And no notice what he said loved by me more than God as. If somehow if God punishes sin, he doesn't love them. You see the arguments they fall apart. Because this this messes with the love of God. What does it mean for God to love?

Andy Stanley his view seems to be God is love means that God will spoil me because I'm the highest priority in the world. The the emphasis here is on the human being and not on God. That child is a sinner.

That child is a criminal in God's sight. The real question for Andy Stanley and Layton flowers is this what do you do when your children don't believe? Because it's up to you. You did you not Communicate the gospel well enough.

What do you do when they claim they say a prayer they walk an aisle. They make a profession of faith and then walk away you say they lost their salvation. Therefore God is not faithful that God says he he would save if they pray and then he takes it away.

You see this is where you end up having they the problems that they have. How are you as a parent gonna deal with the fact that your child doesn't believe you can't rest upon God. You can only rest upon yourself and your child's belief or choice.

Well, if your child believes and says he believes and he chose God and then walks away. What do you do with that? You see you have that dilemma far more than a Calvinist would. You know and and for folks who know me know that I don't take the label Calvinism or Calvinist.

Because it is so misunderstood. But what I do say is if you're going to argue against Calvinism. Fairly represent it. This is not a fair representing. Representation to argue that there had to be some sort of disconnect.

Now the fact is so many people have explained to Layton that he does not understand or fairly Represent what Calvinism is and yet he says well he used to be a Calvinist. Well saying that you used to be something that you didn't understand doesn't mean that you understood it.

If if I sit here and say that I used to be whatever I say I used to be Catholic. But you asked me what Catholic Catholicism is and I can't explain it at all. I'm not an expert on Catholicism when he when someone says there used to be a Calvinist as if that's the argument and that gives them the authority to speak.

Well, quite frankly, this is no different than the professing atheist who grew up in a Christian home. Maybe a home like they're describing and they walk away from the faith. Because they thought it was about their choice and they walk away and say I used to believe but now I am an expert on Christianity because I was taught that in Sunday school never understood anything about it.

But I walked away from it and I can speak as an expert. That's what atheists do all the time. We deal with it a lot on our apologetics live show where people come in and say I used to be a Christian. No, you weren't not according to first John 2 19.

You were a hypocrite that stopped pretending and the reality is when you come in and they make this argument that why used to be this and therefore I'm an authority and. Then so many people say but you misrepresent the position.

No, and and they're gonna do that same thing now here's the notice when I say that they're making arguments that are the same as Atheists make notice what I do. I explain what the argument is. Atheists say I used to be a Christian and therefore I'm an authority on Christianity.

Layton would say I used to be a Calvinist there from an authority on Calvinism but in both cases you see people that misrepresent what Christianity is or what Calvinism is respectively and. That would show that you might have been raised being told what that is, but you never faithfully understood it.

Hyper-Calvinism, Determinism, and Moral Critiques

Let's see what these guys say about Calvinism regarding atheism.

I know this is a bit extreme. But it becomes a little bit Mormon esque a little bit and it becomes a little bit atheist esque. I mean practically speaking and you know shave off the rough edges of this statement, but Practically speaking I feel like that hyper Calvinism is a bit like atheism with eternity thrown in Practically speaking not theologically, but practically speaking.

It's um, everything is determined. It's just that if you're an atheist everything's determined and when you breathe your last breath, it's over for hyper Calvinist or you know hyper reform or the Determinist everything's determined but you know eternity gets thrown in.

I I don't know in terms of practicality how there's that much difference and It seems like a very difficult world view to live out, but somehow they manage it.

So and so here's the thing again, what's he doing? He's going to the extreme now. He's admitting that he's going to extreme. Hey, give him credit. At least he's admitting he is doing that. He's admitting that he's going to the extreme one.

Not really. He's saying hyper Calvinism. But he's he lumps that in as if well. That's what all Calvinists believe if you're gonna talk about Calvinism's effect on the local church then deal with it with the majority of Calvinists would Believe not the extreme.

He lumps it in with Mormonism. I Never saw that connection. Never just throws it out there. It is an argument that you throw out there and it somehow this teaching is the same as Mormonism. Therefore, it's wrong.

Well, this may shock you but do you know that there's some things that Mormonism teach that are actually right they're biblical. They're true. Not everything but there are things that they're gonna teach.

They're true. There is no false religion that teaches everything. They say is gonna be false. No, they always have some truth that they're gonna agree with what the Bible says. But you know, he just says oh, it's Mormon esque.

How is it Mormon esque? Explain that well, it's it's atheism with eternity thrown in how. How is that now? He's dealing with determinists not Calvinists. Right. So make that distinction. So do atheists argue that we're Determinism.

Well, there are some extreme atheists. So I guess if you're gonna go to the extremes on both ends. But you don't argue a system from the extreme and and then they talk about the disconnect. So let's look at that.

Well anytime anytime a Calvinist can is consistent in his Calvinism and he brings critique of what's happening in the world. There's a cognitive disconnect there because ultimately like if okay, so 9-eleven happened.

Okay, so 9-eleven happened according to God's purposes in his will he brought it to pass for his glory. He planned it exactly if Calvinism is true. Okay, so I'm and again Let me let me read from the Westminster or the London Baptist Confession here.

It says God hath decreed in himself from all eternity by the most wise and Holy Council of his own will freely and unchangeably all Things whatsoever to come past yet. He hath not decreed it goes on to say anything because he foresaw it as future.

In other words, he's not foreseeing it and permitting it. That's not what they mean by decree. They mean he he has brought it to pass as Piper says in his in his book that he about Mark Talbert. In other words, this is something God has planned.

And so if you besmirch that thing if you say that was a horrible bad thing, then you've just called God's plan Horrible and bad. You've just besmirched what you think God did for his own self-glorification and there must be a cognitive disconnect for for Piper and Spruill and Previously Spruill obviously he's gone on to be the Lord and Moeller and others to besmirch or to or to call out Negative things that they see happening in the convention that they believe God unchangeably ordained for his own self-glorification.