Andy Stanley and Leighton Flowers discuss Calvinism

Andrew Rappaport's Rapp Report

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When you want to talk about Calvinism's impact on a local church, what do you do?

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You bring in someone that doesn't even understand Calvinism and then discuss it

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Welcome to the rap report with Andrew rap report where we provide biblical interpretations and applications

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This is a ministry of striving for eternity More content or to request a speaker or seminar for your church go to striving for eternity

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Okay, so recently if you haven't heard Layton flowers had Andy Stanley on to his podcast to discuss

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Well Calvinism's impact on the local church. We want to discuss that I'm gonna say right off the bat that I do

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Know Layton flowers personally. I do like him personally, but I disagree with him strongly in his

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Theology he and I both know were that we disagree with one another but we can still get along So there's none of what

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I'm saying is Personal rips on on him. I don't know Andy Stanley at all However, I do think that if you listen to his podcast,

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I'll drop the link in the show notes But if you listen to the podcast what you end up seeing is that first off he has this interview with Andy Stanley because Andy Stanley decided to donate money to Basically soteriology 101 which is the

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Podcast and ministry that Layton flowers is doing so he's got someone that was a big -name donor got him in to do an interview

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Do I fault him for that? Well, no, I mean in one sense, you know, it makes sense He's wanting to have someone who has a big name and can can add

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Maybe what he thinks is credibility. I'm sorry. I don't think Andy Stanley would add credibility at some point we'll deal with the topic that he had said of you know unhinging the

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Old Testament from The New Testament and from the church and yet the reality you you can't do that just biblically you just can't do that So here's the thing as we examine this.

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I do want to say that he's has him on He's discussing Calvinism's impact on the local church two men who don't really understand

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Calvinism as you're gonna see we're gonna play clips and You're gonna hear that Andy Stanley admits.

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He doesn't know this. This isn't the realm he is in But some of the things they do say is

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Just very enlightening and I want to deal with some of that stuff and really here's the thing.

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I Would like us here at the rap report to be mindful of the fact that people disagree with one another

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I am Okay with any of you disagreeing with me. Don't just give me your opinion though You want to describe me come to me with Scripture?

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Okay That's the thing What we have is many people who try to be discerning and really all they are is attacking and What you end up seeing is in this podcast in my opinion is two men who do not understand the opposing position

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Layton flowers has been told by many many people who study Calvinism who?

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Teach Calvinism who understand Calvinism that his description of Calvinism is a strongman argument that his view of Calvinism is not the view that anybody that holds the

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Calvinism or most people the majority of people that he claims as far as Calvinist would hold to and So what you end up seeing is

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Andy Stanley will do the same. They will teach really a hyper Calvinism a view of Determinism that most

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Calvinist those who hold the Calvinism would disagree with There's going to be extremes at either end and any time that you have to make arguments for your point by going to the extremes

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That's a logical fallacy. So I want us to be aware that I'm saying that I think that these two gentlemen

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Who are talking on Calvinism? I don't think are doing a fair representation of what

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Calvinism believes. I Do not have to hold to a position to Rightly define that position.

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I am a Baptist Okay, I believe in the principles of Baptists Baptist thinking and teaching and doctrine yet when

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I was in a Presbyterian Church preaching from a Presbyterian pulpit and Teaching and we had a first -time visitor who comes into the church

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They come to me because I am the gentleman that they saw at the pulpit So this gentleman comes to me and wants to find out what this church believes his question

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Was that he grew up Baptist and he said being the fact that he grew up Baptist He would like to know what this church teaches on the issue of Baptism that was his question.

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He wants to know that specifically So, how do I answer do I give him all the reasons that this church is wrong?

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That I just spoke from their pulpit. I Don't need to do that. Do I disagree sure and that's exactly what

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I did I said listen, I happen to be a Baptist so I would disagree with the Presbyterians view of baptism

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But let me explain to you what their view is here at this church and what the

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Presbyterian view of baptism is and I went into explaining the view through the covenants and how

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Baptism is entering into a covenant relationship how that includes bringing the children into a covenant relationship with God not saving them

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But bringing them into a covenant relationship with God and I went through this at the end of this the pastor

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Took me aside as we went for lunch and said Andrew. I gotta tell you I wish that people in my church

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Understood Presbyterian baptism as well as you a Baptist understand it That's the thing if you're going to disagree with the position at least

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Understand the position. That's what I asked. That's what I try to do. Am I perfect? No, I'm not gonna be perfect There's gonna be times that I misrepresent other people's positions.

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I don't do it. I hope Meaningfully and purposefully, but it will happen

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Everyone's gonna have that happen But when you build a ministry off of one topic and this is something that I Do think and do have issue with with late non and I've talked to him personally about this

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So I'm not saying anything that I haven't spoken directly to him about I think Leighton may be able to have many things to offer the body of Christ But when we were doing a

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Bible study online Bible study on Ephesians He kept making it about Calvinism when the text wasn't even dealing with the issue of Calvinism he realized that and that's where I see

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I personally see a blind spot with him is that for him everything is about Calvinism and he's built a ministry based on that and Anytime someone makes a ministry on one thing it can become a blind spot to them because they see that and everything

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Guys if you're Calvinists, you know that phrase that I think James White Started or whoever started it called cage stage

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Where someone becomes a Calvinist and that they see it in everything and they want everyone to believe what they're believing on Calvinism So you have that on both ends.

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Okay, let's be fair about it. But some of the things that we end up seeing here I Think are incorrect and Wrong assumptions to be made about a teaching in this case

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Calvinism and I want to go through some of these quotes Play them saying it so that you hear it and we don't have time to play through the full episode

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I try to do usually do that play through everything so you get the context I will link it so you have the link so that you can go and listen and see if I've taken the quotes out of Context but here's the thing you end up here seeing and they'd be early on They ended up discussing the difference between Calvinists when it comes to men and women in the churches and Let's listen to what

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Andy Stanley says about this What was the surprise in the first century when it came to the people who followed

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Jesus? It was the number of women who flocked to his message because Jesus elevated the status of women consistently and immediately so if there is a theology that put is as Essentially on the surface more in any way offensive to females or to women

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I think that's something I just think that's something we should pay attention to anyway back to your practical and also

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Logically speaking here's another issue is that if Calvinism is true Then God has ordained for more men to accept

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Calvinism than women in other words God for some reason Has sovereignly decreed and has determined for men to get it and for women to reject it for whatever reason

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Okay, let's let's look at this first off is it true that in the first century the women were flocking

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Well, when we look at the scriptures, we see 12 male disciples. We have Mary We have

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Martha. We have his mother Mary Not too many other women are mentioned there in those early years when you go on and you start looking at the other people mentioned like Timothy and Luke and Silas and lots of other men

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Well, you have Priscilla and Aquila. So there's a woman with her husband

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In other words, you don't have a record for it to support the claim that women were flocking to that now

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There's a reason that you end up seeing that the fact that you see more men in Calvinism I Would say that part of this is twofold one

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You're gonna see and I'll deal with this in a later quote, but you're gonna see who it is. That's out there

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Calvinist typically are also taking a position that women shouldn't be taking a teaching role So who is naturally going to be the ones taking a more?

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Forthright more open role in teaching it's not going to be the women Because that's not what

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Calvinist typically would end up arguing is the role of the women to be teaching

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So they're gonna base it on those who are blogging writing books teaching at pulpits

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Online doing what teaching if you have a position that the men should be teaching then women wouldn't be doing that It's really simple

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The argument that somehow in the first century Women were flocking

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Now here's the thing to always note and this is just a good thing to do Look when someone makes a statement and look how they support it

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You see Andy Stanley did not support that argument at all. He made a claim and moved on He makes a statement with no support and then uses that to make a conclusion

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Now when I made the response, what did I do? I gave you names that you can go look up in Scripture You can go through and look at all the men

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That are mentioned in the New Testament and all the women mentioned in the New Testament and you're gonna find an overwhelming number of men for the same reason that we would see this in a more of a tradition of teaching that puts male teachers and not female teachers because You're only gonna hear from the men.

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Were there more women? I'm sure there were more women that were then we have recorded. I'm sure there's more men also

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But you can't make an argument from silence when you say that there was a majority of women flocking

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The scriptures just don't support that there were women that's that came and followed Christ But there were far more men that did so so the conclusion

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He makes is based off of baseless claim that he doesn't support and then he makes a conclusion

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It's somehow Calvinism is wrong because of this view and then then he gives a quote from Moeller Wow.

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Well, here's I have a quote. I didn't know if this would be appropriate, but I'll bring it up now I'm you mentioned Al Moller earlier

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Al I think he must have a man crush on me. I don't know. He can't quit talking about me. I'm not sure I've only met him once and Okay, stop.

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What what did I just hear? I'm sorry, but is this the way you should ever be speaking of A fellow if you're gonna say a fellow brother in Christ a leader in a church in a in a seminary

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That you should speak to him in in this way. I'm you mentioned Al Moller earlier Al I think he must have a man crush on me.

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I don't know. He can't quit talking about me I'm not sure he has a man crushes. Is that the way that you should be speaking about?

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Somebody who is a leader in a church. I I'm sorry, but to me that comes off as very narcissistic very

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Self -focused and and to be say, oh he is a man crush on me that he doesn't stop talking about me

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But Andy does he talk about you in a good way or is he warning people about you think about that?

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It's not that he's speaking of you praising you because he's got a man crush on you It's because it more that he's warning people it seems about some of the things that you're saying

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Because it seems like you're going off on a bad path and people are warning it

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That's the thing. Look folks. There may be some here who really like Andy Stanley. I Can understand that but you have to ask why is it because of his father?

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Some do let's be fair some do but the reality is is that there are many who think he's going down a bad path

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He's on a trajectory. That's not healthy and could lead to Well false teaching.

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That's how many feel and and to sit here and to be like, oh he has a man crush on me.

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I just think that that is disrespectful way of speaking of Someone who is a teacher of God's Word someone who is a leader in the church someone who is a leader in a seminary.

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I Also think it's very narcissistic. Let's go on to hear him talk about his quote I would love to talk to him.

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We did have one quick phone call about seven years ago anyway, he I I was at an

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ERLC conference a different one than the one that I was interviewed at and he opened the conference and he made this statement and I gasped out loud.

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I Everybody else just kept taking notes I went back and watched the message again to make sure I had not misheard and wrote the quote down and here's here's what dr

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Moeller said talking about Southern Baptist Convention to your point. He said the vast majority of people

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Who've ever been baptized by our people are our own offspring?

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We've met this. This is amazing We've never been very evangelistic in terms of people who weren't those to whom we gave birth

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Okay, so this is an argument and and keep in mind This is an argument many make against Calvinism that they're not evangelistic.

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And the argument is that he's saying Remember the context context is how we understand things.

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This is in the context of Calvinism's effect on a local church and the argument is that the local church is not evangelizing outside of their own family

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Because of the Calvinism that's the assumption that's being led to be understood.

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However What was it that Moeller was quoting that was the Southern Baptist which include

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Andy Stanley and Layton flowers the reality is many of you know that I'm very active in evangelism many of the

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Evangelists around the country who are active in evangelism evangelism also happen to be

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Calvinists, that's right. The the argument that Calvinists don't evangelize. Oh the hyper

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Calvinist. Yes. Yes Okay, the people who think everything's determined, but that's the extreme you don't argue from the extreme.

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And so You end up seeing here in this argument that he's making. He's trying to make these claims as if Calvinists don't

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Evangelize and this is somehow something that is only being done within the family Listen to this as he continues with this because Layton's gonna weigh in on this

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I'm like that to me they should have hit pause on the whole conference and thing was a minute

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The Southern Baptist Convention has never been evangelistic except toward the people to whom they gave birth

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So then I take that that shocking revelation and then try to line it up with his

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Calvinism so to your point, it looks like God has selected more men than women and He selects primarily the children of believers as opposed to those who are not biologic

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I mean, so so well, here's I have okay. So here's the thing that you end up having. Okay, and The they're they're talking about God ordaining more men than women.

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Okay, first off note again No support for that claim

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It's a statement He made the statement earlier that there's more men than women

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That are coming into being Calvinist and therefore Based on that baseless assumption.

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He never supported. I Listened to the entire Podcast I never heard him give support for that claim and yet he builds conclusion after conclusion

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Based on that that somehow God ordains more men than women God ordains whoever he chooses to her

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Dane That's the reality and and you're not gonna be able to argue that I would say against Scripture because Scripture makes it really clear

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He uses things like in Ephesians where he says that he elected before the foundation of time

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What does that mean? Now is there time for God? We're gonna have a new segment on this podcast that we're gonna start doing regularly

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We're gonna talk about the attributes of God Why because the attributes of God are so important if you want to understand theology you must understand the attributes of God because that is gonna

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Clarify your theology and here you end up seeing that they really don't understand the attributes of God When God speaks about the beginning of time and something happening him him choosing something before there was time

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There is no such thing as time to God He's eternal

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Therefore he's not bound by time when he speaks of before the foundation of time it is not to say that there was some point before there was time and then and God did something there and Then he started up time

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He's trying to say that you and I had absolutely nothing to do with our salvation because it happened all the way back then

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That's when the election happened. The election can't be caused by something we do because it happened all the way back

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Before there was time and and then you get into the question. Well, how did God elect? We have to remember he's omniscient when you start trying to argue things about God Doing something in time

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Having to be bound by time and then having to be bound by knowledge that what thinks we would do you don't have the

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God of the Bible and They would disagree that they're doing that but this is the thing

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When did God Elect now if God elected before we were born

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Just start there. We won't even deal with the phrase before the foundation of time if God elected people to be saved before they were born then their choice had nothing to do with it and people will end up arguing as as Layton and others would probably make the case is that God knew in his omniscience what they would do and Therefore That was their choice their free will choice.

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He would say is What God based the election on? Then God's not omniscient truly because he had to see what people would do

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You see now you no longer have an omniscient God. You have a God who? has to rely on the thoughts of men to see what they're gonna do and they're gonna make an argument about Consistent Calvinism.

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Well, I would say that the only consistent Armenian is Gonna be an open theist because you have to deny that God knows everything

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Why because you have to say that man's free will choice is what determines their election?

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Therefore God had to see what they would do and he can't know it I would argue as many others that that's the only consistent position.

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They would disagree. I understand that That's where we end up having our disagreements but to argue that somehow

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God ordained more men than women based on what? What is the basis just because there's more men in a teaching that teaches that men should be doing the teaching?

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Well, duh, of course, there's gonna be more men that you know about by the way There's more male teachers in the

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Armenian Southern Baptists the traditionalists they have more male teachers there, too

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Does that mean that more men shoes? Just think about that because see their argument does not apply only to Calvinism Take their argument apply it to the traditionals position

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There are far more traditionals writing and speaking when we say traditionals That's the terms that they use to refer to their position because they don't say there are minion

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They don't use those terms. They say traditional fine. We'll use their terms in their terms Who is it?

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That's doing the bulk of the podcasting the bulk of the teaching the bulk of the writing blogging and all the kind It's men in the

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Southern Baptist Convention that are the traditionals. It's not the women for the same reason

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Okay, so you got to be able to apply this and say does this count both ways?

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If this applies to the traditionals just as much as it does the Calvinist then it's not an argument against Calvinism And this is just we got to be fair with this.

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That's what I'm asking if Andy Stanley is going to be talking about the impact that Calvinism has on the on the church

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Then you have to at least be fair with it. Now we get back to this issue of women Let's hear what they say about this.

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I'll bet the male Calvinist Embrace that and the female Calvinist never ever get there.

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The maternal instinct would have a very difficult time Reconciling the reality of being a mom with that theology just just a hunch

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Yeah, well the statistics do show that the resurging is very male dominated, right? Of course, it is very young male white dominated and I'm not trying to be racist in that comment

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I just it just happens to be The studies are showing that that most of the people in the young restless reform movement right now are younger white males

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Now that's not obviously across the board. Obviously, there's exceptions to that but that is predominantly what you're saying and even

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Piper addresses that Okay, and so here's the thing that applies to traditionalists as well

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And he says he doesn't want to get racist, but he's like and white. Yes. He is getting racist there

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I'm sorry, but you're the one emphasizing that and so When you end up making the arguments as they're making they're saying somehow that women have this maternal instinct

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That their children going to hell that was the context their children going to hell who children who aren't saved that somehow they can't agree with this doctrine

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This is so hard because what he doesn't even realize I don't think

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Where it does your theology come from your feelings? Because if that's your if that's where your theology is from you might as well be charismatic

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Okay, you might as well go and this isn't a dig on charismatics. I mean I cares max will be

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Honest and open about the fact that they are more of an emotional based theology emotional based worship and the reality is is

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That's what he's arguing that somehow the problem with the theology is The maternal instinct just they they can't go there and that's why it's more male dominated

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The the reason it's more male dominant is very simple because in this teaching in these

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Churches that would hold to this they would not have women teachers.

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It's really that simple okay, and The things that they're saying apply just as much

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To the You know to the Traditionalists as well. Now. I want to get to what

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Leighton said. Let me play this again I did right course it is very young male white dominated and I'm not trying to be racist in that comment

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I just it just happens to be The studies are showing that that most of the people in the young restless reform movement right now are younger white males

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Okay, really, you know, there is a group Just for women called theology gals

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They have like 4 ,000 women that are reformed and they want to talk theology

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I mean there is a resurgence in Christianity That's what it is.

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It's not a male female thing. You see how they're all basing this whole thing on One thing that was said earlier

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Just a claim made No support for it They continue to to redo this and yet where is the evidence?

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Because the things they're saying now apply to their position as well their position

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Their traditionalists have the same issue. They're mostly white. They're mostly male does does that mean that somehow they're in the wrong and If it's the case that it happens to be that there's more whites

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Men in America where by the way 80 % of America would be

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Considered white. Well less than I mean, let's say six is 60 to 80 So why wouldn't you expect in a country?

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That's majority white to have more white people Teaching it's not that they're that there's some sort of out of balance thing there

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There's plenty of African Americans who are also very reformed and they recognize that but they put it in Oh, that's just like an anomaly

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No, there's a there's a resurgence within the African American community for her for and you really want to take a look at it

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That's where there's a real surgeons going on My you know as far as percentage wise

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You can go go to the bar podcast go to the guys at the bar on the bar network And you're gonna hear a whole bunch of reformed

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African. Well, most of them african -american. They now have the Pastors discussion. So those guys aren't african -american, but they start they were the guys that started that are

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All african -americans who happen to also be reformed

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Okay, they're Calvinists There is a resurgence going on I just don't think that those are the circles that Andy Stanley and latent flowers are in To know that and so this is the thing when you're gonna make arguments like this

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My plea is to know the other side Don't just make

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Baseless arguments or conclusions or things like this that look I recognize to to latent flowers crowd

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Okay, his audience is anti Calvinist Okay This is going to feed right into his audience however

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The question you must ask is are the arguments valid?

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See, they're making arguments against Calvinism when those same arguments apply to them Let's hear what they end up saying about parents because this is where you end up seeing here

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They already mentioned this thing about mothers Andy Stanley and latent have some interesting things to say here

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Yeah, and that's been that's definitely been one of my arguments is that it's not a tenable way of living life And it is how do you raise your kids that way

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I mean you were a parent when you were Calvinist, right? Yeah I mean,

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I'm asking honestly, this is one of my questions for you is do you allow your child to pray a prayer of repentance and salvation and then you just Hope it took and then when they repray it at 12

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You hope that one took then they go to camp and they repray it again Are you as a parent and then when your child is 17 and decides he or she?

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It's gonna run off and kind of abandon faith. Do you think oh, no I've no problems because they prayed that prayer when they're eight or do you

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I mean what does a what do parents do? When their children walk away from faith do they shrug and say?

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They weren't one of the elects good thing. I have three other kids or what? What's that? No, I mean for me personally it was there was probably a cognitive disconnect there

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There was it would have to be as a parent. Yeah, but but I mean To be to be fair,

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I mean Piper does talk about In one of his broadcasts or one of his books He talks about his children and even saying, you know

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If God for whatever reason and his eternal purposes chose not to elect one of my children Then I then I must trust him and so there there is a sense in which

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Calvinist have to come to that realization that maybe one of my babies Is loved by me more than God, right?

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And no no notice what he said loved by me more than God as If somehow if God punishes sin, he doesn't love them

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You see the arguments they fall apart Because this this messes with the love of God What does it mean for God to love?

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Andy Stanley his view seems to be God is love means that God will spoil me because I'm the highest priority in the world

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The the emphasis here is on the human being and not on God that child is a sinner

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That child is a criminal in God's sight The real question for Andy Stanley and Layton flowers is this what do you do when your children don't believe?

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Because it's up to you. You did you not Communicate the gospel well enough. What do you do when they claim they say a prayer they walk an aisle

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They make a profession of faith and then walk away you say they lost their salvation Therefore God is not faithful that God says he he would save if they pray and then he takes it away

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You see this is where you end up having they the problems that they have How are you as a parent gonna deal with the fact that your child doesn't believe you can't rest upon God You can only rest upon yourself and your child's belief or choice

31:59

Well, if your child believes and says he believes and he chose God and then walks away What do you do with that?

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You see you have that dilemma far more than a Calvinist would You know and and for folks who know me know that I don't take the label

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Calvinism or Calvinist Because it is so misunderstood But what

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I do say is if you're going to argue against Calvinism Fairly represented. This is not a fair representing

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Representation to argue that there had to be some sort of disconnect. No, the fact is so many people have

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Explained to Layton that he does not understand or fairly Represent what

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Calvinism is and yet he says well he used to be a Calvinist Well saying that you used to be something that you didn't understand doesn't mean

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That you understood it If if I sit here and say that I used to be whatever

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I say I used to be Catholic But you asked me what Catholic Catholicism is and I can't explain it at all.

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I'm not an expert on Catholicism when he when someone says there used to be a

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Calvinist as if that's the argument and That gives them the authority to speak

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Well, quite frankly, this is no different than the professing atheist who grew up in a

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Christian home Maybe a home like they're describing and they walk away from the faith

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Because they thought it was about their choice and they walk away and say I used to believe but now I am an expert on Christianity because I was taught that in Sunday school never understood anything about it

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But I walked away from it and I can speak as an expert. That's what atheists do all the time

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We deal with it a lot on our apologetics live show where people come in and say

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I used to be a Christian No, you weren't not according to first John 2 19 You were a hypocrite that stopped pretending and the reality is when you come in and they make this argument that well,

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I used to be this and therefore I'm an authority and Then so many people say but you misrepresent the position.

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No, and and they're gonna do that same thing Now here's the notice when I say that they're making arguments that are the same as atheists make

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Notice what I do. I explain what the argument is Atheists say

34:23

I used to be a Christian and therefore I'm an authority on Christianity Leighton would say I used to be a

34:29

Calvinist there from an authority on Calvinism but in both cases you see people that misrepresent what

34:35

Christianity is or what Calvinism is respectively and That would show that you might have been raised being told what that is, but you never faithfully understood it

34:46

Let's see what these guys say about Calvinism regarding atheism I know this is a bit extreme

34:52

But it becomes a little bit Mormon esque a little bit and it becomes a little bit atheist esque I mean practically speaking and you know shave off the rough edges of this statement, but Practically speaking

35:04

I feel like that hyper Calvinism is a bit like atheism with eternity thrown in Practically speaking not theologically, but practically speaking.

35:13

It's um, everything is determined It's just that if you're an atheist everything's determined and when you breathe your last breath, it's over for hyper

35:22

Calvinist or you know hyper reform or the Determinist everything's determined, but you know eternity gets thrown in I I don't know in terms of practicality how there's that much difference and It seems like a very difficult worldview to live out, but somehow they manage it

35:38

So and so here's the thing again, what's he doing? He's going to the extreme now. He's admitting that he's going to extreme

35:44

Hey, give him credit. At least he's admitting he is doing that. He's admitting that he's going to the extreme one

35:50

Not really He's saying hyper Calvinism But he's he lumps that in as if well That's what all

35:55

Calvinists believe if you're gonna talk about Calvinism's effect on the local church then deal with it with the majority of Calvinists would

36:02

Believe not the extreme. He lumps it in with Mormonism. I Never saw that connection

36:10

Never just throws it out there It is an argument that you throw out there and it somehow this teaching is the same as Mormonism.

36:18

Therefore, it's wrong Well, this may shock you But do you know that there's some things that Mormonism teach that are actually right they're biblical they're true not everything

36:28

But there are things that they're gonna teach. They're true There is no false religion that teaches everything they say is gonna be false

36:36

No, they always have some truth that they're gonna agree with what the Bible says But you know, he just says oh, it's

36:43

Mormon esque. How is it Mormon esque? Explain that well, it's it's atheism with eternity thrown in how

36:52

How is that now? He's dealing with determinists not Calvinists Right.

36:59

So make that distinction. So do atheists argue that we're Determinism.

37:05

Well, there are some extreme atheists. So I guess if you're gonna go to the extremes on both ends But you don't argue a system from the extreme and and then they talk about the disconnect.

37:15

So let's look at that Well anytime anytime a Calvinist can is consistent in his

37:20

Calvinism and he brings critique of what's happening in the world There's a cognitive disconnect there because ultimately like if okay, so 9 -eleven happened.

37:31

Okay, so 9 -eleven happened according to God's purposes in his will he brought it to pass for his glory

37:37

He planned it exactly if Calvinism is true. Okay, so I'm and again Let me let me read from the

37:42

Westminster or the London Baptist Confession here It says God hath decreed in himself from all eternity by the most wise and Holy Council of his own will freely and unchangeably all

37:50

Things whatsoever to come past yet. He hath not decreed it goes on to say anything because he foresaw it as future

37:57

In other words, he's not foreseeing it and permitting it. That's not what they mean by decree They mean he he has brought it to pass as Piper says in his in his book that he about Mark Talbert In other words, this is something

38:08

God has planned And so if you besmirch that thing if you say that was a horrible bad thing, then you've just called

38:15

God's plan Horrible and bad. You've just besmirched what you think God did for his own self -glorification and there must be a cognitive disconnect for for Piper and Sproul and Previously sprawl obviously he's gone on to be the

38:29

Lord and molar and others to besmirch or to or to call out

38:34

Negative things that they see happening in the convention that they believe God unchangeably ordained for his own self -glorification

38:41

It it's like are you do you see how logically this just does not play itself out?

38:47

It does not work for you to be able to critique something that you believe God brought to pass for his own self -glorification.

38:53

Well, they toss it into the bucket of mystery. No, we don't toss it in the bucket Of mystery we say that God ordained the ends and the means

39:01

That's the reality look if you don't believe that God is sovereign which that's what's at issue here

39:09

Is God in control? Absolutely. He is there's not a single Adam in the universe. That's outside of his control because he's sovereign

39:16

However, you talk about a disconnect What do these guys do?

39:21

when it comes to 9 -11 I Mean, they just say well man is sovereign man is in control man overrode what

39:29

God might have wanted but notice Emphasis and this is where you see the difference the emphasis with the

39:35

Calvinist is more on God's holiness God is in control

39:40

The reality is that if you go and you look at your Old Testament, I know many people want to avoid that They don't understand the history there.

39:47

What do you have? You have generation after generation a generation of Jewish people who decided to go against God's law

39:55

God said every seventh year you will let the land rest You will give it a rest and they said no we don't trust in God Enough we are not going to depend upon God and we are not going to let that land rest and for 70 of those

40:10

Sabbath Years, they did not let the land rest. And what did God do? He said because of that I God will bring a judgment

40:20

He sent all of these prophets to say thus says the Lord There will be a judgment upon you and Jeremiah says that judgment will be for 70 years to make up for the 70

40:32

Sabbaths that you Rejected that you ignored because of that you will be judged and that judgment will have a good purpose

40:42

The reality is what you see from guys like this is they view everything from man's perspective

40:49

Everything is about what is best for man Not from God's perspective and what's best for God See God's ways are not our ways

40:59

We're gonna look at that later on in this podcast and you end up seeing that for these guys. They see everything from a man -centered perspective that somehow

41:08

God's love is spoiling people sport giving people everything they want and Somehow if a if a child isn't of is not saved the mother can't deal with that because she can't trust in God.

41:21

I have a son that to this point seems to not believe in Jesus Christ and Therefore do

41:31

I sit there and go? Oh, what was me? What why didn't I share the gospel with him enough? no, I trust in the fact that he's heard the gospel message and Even though it breaks my heart if he was to die without Christ.

41:43

He'd spend eternity in hell. I Have a mother who died and I know so many people think this is so horrible to say

41:49

My mother died and I have no reason to believe that she is not burning in hell today.

41:56

Do I want that? Absolutely, not. I do not want that However, God is sovereign.

42:04

I have to recognize that even my mother who I love dearly She was a

42:11

Criminal in God's sight. She was an enemy of God so what becomes more important my love for my mother and therefore my theology should be

42:20

Determined through my my emotions or do I read scripture and just submit to what it says my emotions be?

42:29

gone, who cares That's the reality now. Why do we correct him?

42:34

Well, Andy said we should this isn't a world. I spend a lot of time in so feel free to correct me publicly

42:41

I'm you know, this is your world. I just to dance around the periphery but and that's right That's why we're doing this because this is not his world

42:49

That's why I question Leighton on this if Leighton flowers

42:54

Wants to have a podcast with Andy Stanley because Andy Stanley donated some money and he wants to I mean look

43:00

The the world of media today is about building platforms and there's many people trying different ways to build platforms

43:07

Okay, and for anybody who's gonna criticize Leighton flowers for Utilizing someone who's got a bigger name than him to help promote him and Then those people do the very same thing or even worse

43:23

They end up doing things like clickbait where they they give misleading titles

43:28

So people will click on something and then it has nothing to do with what they say or just just to get the traffic

43:34

That would be worse. Okay, I'm not gonna fault that but here's the thing My challenged

43:40

Andy's to Leighton flowers would be this if you have Andy Stanley on why in the world would you discuss something that he admits

43:46

Is not his world It's something he doesn't study. He's not an expert at it.

43:52

Clearly. He doesn't understand enough about the subject clearly Have him talk about something that you feel he is knowledgeable on that is his world and we are kind of correcting him here

44:04

Probably because well he said so so now do I think Andy Stanley is gonna listen to this? Oh, I hope so.

44:10

I hope someone would share it with him because you look I care for what he's teaching I would love to you know, look if there was a way that I could talk with Andy Stanley, it wouldn't be on air

44:20

I'd talk with him privately Just like I did Robert Shuler son when

44:25

Robert Shuler son and I were on be able to have dialogue that wasn't public

44:30

No one knows that that that went on we had some dialogues where I tried correcting some things and we started talking

44:37

We you know, I had planned that when I got out to to California I was gonna try to get together with him

44:43

But at that point it was clear where the things were going in and he cut off communication.

44:48

Okay? but the reality I do the same thing because I care for the truth of God's Word and That's where we need to be right now

44:58

This is I think the thing that got me the most is this next clip and I want to deal with this

45:04

And some of the notes I took as I thought about our conversation I wrote that essentially, and I I've read your book and Anyway, that if God causes or is behind or sovereignly

45:16

Institutes all evil it really blurs. In fact, this takes me back to the parallel between the

45:23

New Calvinist or hyper Calvinism and atheism This blurs the distinction between good and evil because anything that glorifies or reflects well on God has to be good

45:32

So when evil reflects good on God then evil becomes good I just don't know how again,

45:38

I don't know how to live with that dichotomy I don't know how to live in that world where good becomes evil and evil becomes good and we're back to the question of can you have a basis for morality apart from God and You know

45:50

Christians say you can't have a basis for morality apart from God the Calvinists say that's right

45:55

You can't have a basis for morality apart from God but when you look at the basis of morality good becomes evil and evil becomes good because God's behind it all

46:02

I just And that may be true if it's true It certainly isn't does not the scripture does not bear witness to that and neither neither does human logic

46:13

But I realized that my human logic is so skewed that I can't trust that either I agree he can't trust that either because it is skewed because Calvinists don't make the arguments that evil is good.

46:24

It could see boy. It's a straw man You're gonna say it doesn't agree with logic.

46:30

Well, here's the thing Logic would say that if you're arguing a straw man argument a straw man argument is to name that fallacy

46:38

That's a you know, we actually we could you know, that's one of the segments we do is name that fallacy

46:45

That's a straw man fallacy. That is when you build up a definition for something That's not the right definition and then you attack it because it's easy to knock down The argument he made is not the cow.

46:57

It's not an argument I hear any Calvinist except the hyper Calvinist make the the determinists

47:03

Then here's the thing if you're gonna argue that that's Calvinism then be consistent and say that's hyper

47:08

Calvinism It's not what all Calvinists believe therefore you should read a title this hyper Calvinism in the local church, which you wouldn't do because well

47:16

Yeah, hyper Calvinism is not prevalent in the local church They mentioned the young restless and reformed.

47:23

They're not hyper Calvinists typically So you see you have that where it's a straw man argument

47:29

That's not the argument that gets made. I would just challenge us now. Look I I Have I've had shared a meal with Layton flowers.

47:37

I don't know Andy Stanley at all I would like to think that I can consider Layton flowers a friend.

47:43

We are cordial We we've talked a number of times on the phone. I have no ill will on him

47:50

Do I disagree with his theology well clearly does he disagree with my theology clearly would

47:55

I disagree with Andy Stanley on a whole host of things but the reality is that What I challenge them to do if their arguments are so weak that they cannot address what?

48:11

People that espouse Calvinism actually say and believe Then you are not you can't appeal to human logic.

48:19

I'm sorry Because you have a straw man argument and as long as you're fighting against the straw man logic is not on your side

48:27

It means when you appeal to logical fallacies. It means that your argument is

48:33

Invalid an invalid argument is not logical. And so I would challenge this when people do this, please understand both sides of an issue, please

48:47

Can you prove that God is a Trinity? Can you prove that Jesus is God? Can you defend the

48:53

Christian faith? And what is it that Christians truly believe the new book by Andrew Rappaport? What do we believe will answer those questions and more some people just don't understand what the church is today

49:04

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49:11

Get your copy at what do we believe book .com or at the striving for eternity org store

49:17

The good news is striving for eternity would love to come to your church to spend two days with your folks

49:25

Teaching them biblical hermeneutics. That's right The art and science of interpreting scripture the bad news is somebody attending might be really upset to discover

49:35

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Org to host a Bible interpretation made easy seminar in your area

49:46

And that's really what we're talking about here hermeneutics. We're talking about how you interpret. This is important This is not something to take lightly that you if you use wrong hermeneutics

49:55

If you use your personal emotions your personal feelings to interpret scripture, you are not going to come up with God's Word Sorry here.

50:03

I'll quote paraphrase Calvin But You know, he said that if you are twisting

50:11

God's Word You no longer have or if you're twisting scripture, you no longer have God's Word.

50:16

You have man's Word and when you misinterpret God's Word when you purposely or in or without intention

50:25

Take God's Word and Misapply it misinterpret it. You do not have

50:30

God's Word. You have man's Word So what here's a new segment I want to do I want to start doing this regularly is look at the attributes of God and some of these the first attribute we're gonna look at fits in very well here with this as We look at the attributes of God the first attribute that I always teach when

50:47

I teach my theology class whenever I teach my theology Classes I always start with the attributes of God So we rightly understand our theology is based in the nature and attributes of God The first attribute you must look at is his incomprehensibility in we his incomprehensibility is the fact that everything that is

51:06

Known about God is known through ultimately through Scripture is where we get the most revelation

51:12

But that in which is revealed in Scripture is not all that can be known of God There's far more to God than he reveals in Scripture.

51:21

There's far more about God than we can know Yet what he does reveal that we obey let's look at some

51:29

Scripture Deuteronomy 29 29 the secret things belonging to the Lord our God but the things that are revealed belong to us and our and our children forever that We may do all the words of the law

51:46

Isaiah 55 verse 8 for my thoughts are not your thoughts neither are your ways my ways declares the

51:54

Lord You end up seeing in Psalm 145 verse 3

52:05

Great is the Lord greatly to be praised and grew and his greatness is

52:12

Unsearchable We see in Romans chapter 11 verses 33 to 34

52:18

Oh the depths of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways for who can know the mind of the

52:34

Lord or Who has been his counselor one last verse? Let's look at first Corinthians 2

52:41

Verse 11 for who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person which is in him so also no one

52:52

Comprehends the thoughts of God Except the Spirit of God the reality is we end up seeing is that we cannot know everything there is to know about God But that which he has revealed to us that we can know that we can understand and that we obey those things that we learn from that and we end up seeing here is that scripture teaches us that God is

53:14

Incomprehensible that we can't fully know him. Now. That is the first attribute by the way I'll give a plug and I'll give a note list in the show notes

53:22

I'll give you a link for to buy our attributes of God card We have a quick reference card to going through the attributes of God Why well, actually

53:30

I pray through the attributes of God in my prayer time I go through every one of these attributes and I pray them back to God It helps to focus the rest of my prayer because when

53:41

I'm gonna think about me myself What is it that's gonna keep someone like an Andy Stanley or latent flowers from the things that I'm saying here?

53:48

I think that they're doing wrong is Being if you spend that time to study and go through these attributes of God and you pray through them every time

53:56

You're less likely you're gonna be much less likely to to fall into error

54:02

In in thinking that somehow man should be the center these I have 31

54:08

Attributes of God that I try to go through every day That is going to be helpful to us to go through those things and examine those things and look at them

54:20

And so I we offer a card that breaks the attributes God into three different categories attributes of deity attributes of personality attributes of morality

54:29

And we're gonna go through those that this is something that I don't know many people that define those in the cat those categories

54:35

Usually I do a communicable incommunicable, which just means Communicated means that they're shared with man as far as being made in the image of God those attributes that are communicated to man like the fact that he is emotions the

54:48

Fact that he has a spirit things like that that we share in those and then there's those that are incommunicable

54:54

We don't communicate and things like omniscience. We don't have that attribute. So I Have broken it up differently, but here's the thing

55:03

Let us think about the fact that God's greater than our ability to understand Listen to some of the arguments that you heard from from Andy Stanley What is he arguing?

55:11

This doesn't make sense to me. Well, you know what? That's the argument I hear from Muslims when they talk about well, how could

55:18

God die on a cross? How could God be three in one? It doesn't make sense to me.

55:24

What is their sovereign? Their human reasoning their ultimate authorities their ability to reason

55:31

The same thing could be said here with Andy Stanley. He says I this doesn't make sense. This doesn't this doesn't fit

55:37

How can you say this to about a child the reality is is when you look at these things

55:43

We're not appealing to mystery We're appealing to incomprehensibility the fact that God is greater than our ability to understand him and We won't understand everything there is to know about God, but the point being is

55:59

That what we do know about God he's revealed to us and And That is what we understand.

56:07

Do we understand everything? No, so to sit there go. Oh, well, it's a mystery Well, if you fully understand God if you can say that your

56:13

God is someone that you can fully comprehend Then you don't have the God of the Bible I'm just saying

56:19

I say that to Muslims all the time You don't have the God of the Bible if you can fully comprehend him.

56:25

That's the argument that gets made by Jehovah Witnesses I don't understand the Trinity good Then your

56:31

God is not the God of the Bible the Bible that is a Trinity is one that I can't fully comprehend That's the God of the

56:36

Bible So that is one of the new segments that I want to start doing in the podcasts the other thing that I want to do is a new segment is you know, one of the things that I love about logoff software is

56:50

They took one of the things that I gave back many years ago a hundred some different Features that I would like to see in their software and Actually within a release or two

57:05

They had them all in one of the ones that I like the most or not the most but I like a lot is

57:11

The fact that one of the things I would do in my study is to just open a Bible dictionary

57:16

A Bible encyclopedia to a random section and just read just read it every day It helps you to understand the background of the text people sometimes ask me when

57:24

I preach How is it that I I have this this wealth of knowledge of the culture and the times and things like that?

57:32

Well, it really comes because of the practice of just opening the Bible dictionary or opening a

57:37

Bible encyclopedia Randomly and just reading now part of the problem we have here is on this podcast

57:44

We don't have time to to read longer sections most of most of them are gonna be longer sections when you get into that, but we end up just Wanting to make a habit of doing that so Lagos has if you have

57:59

Lagos software if you want you can well put a link in the show notes where you can get Lagos software and get free five free books from striving for eternity on our page and You can look at that in the show notes.

58:11

I'll try to put that in so I just opened randomly to Caiaphas and So here's what it says

58:18

Joseph also called Caiaphas was high priest from ad 18 to 36 when he was deposed by Villatelis governor of Syria he was son -in -law to anise and Seems to have worked in close cooperation with him he was high priest at the trial of Jesus and during the

58:48

Persecutions Sorry, yeah persecutions described in the early chapters of Acts So there's a little bit about Caiaphas, but make that a practice just randomly open up a

59:00

Bible dictionary Read it every day. I used to I do that with a cup of coffee I used to do it with a Bible dictionary now

59:05

I have my Lagos that opens up in the home page and randomly does that so I like that it's a little bit easier for me, but My challenge to folks is this first and foremost is if you're going to critique somebody try to be fair about their position

59:19

I hope I'm sure that Leighton will listen to this. Why because I'm gonna send it to him, but I Would I'll send it to Andy Stanley if someone gives me his email address

59:29

But I would hope that I didn't misrepresent their positions and trust me if I misrepresented anything that Leighton flowers

59:36

Said or believes he will do a four -hour podcast about it. Don't worry. He will do that It could be 20 minutes of what

59:44

I say. It could be two minutes of what I say He'll do a three -hour podcast. Trust me. But the thing is this is that what

59:49

I want to be is fair with their position I wish they would be fair with with mine and this is something that people need to do especially in online when people are out there online and Criticizing one another you need to be fair about the other side's position if they're telling you you're misrepresenting them

01:00:08

Take heed to that Especially when it's happening over and over and over again and Andy Stanley just isn't the guy that should be talking about Calvinism's effect on the church

01:00:18

That's my thought So I'd encourage you guys to go check out striving for eternity

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