OT Studies

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three Three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James white.

Intercession in Islam and the Need for a Mediator

And good afternoon. Welcome to the dividing line on a Thursday afternoon. Got lots of stuff lined up here the phones are already ringing as well, we'll see what we can get to those as Normal, it's always best for me to talk about stuff that I've just been recently.

Studying listening to working on whatever else it might be and this morning During a two-hour ride I listened to a couple things. I listened to Shabir Ali and Tony Costa on the unbelievable radio program in London and I have that queued up and once that was finished I continued listening to the lectures of yasser khadi and He was lecturing on the subject of intercession in Islam what intercession means in Islam and I found this really very interesting.

Especially as he relates the story. I'm about to play for you. It is a story from the hadith in relationship to the concept of intercession and I've read this story from the hadith, but since he repeats it, I'll let him do it.

I want you to listen to this. I think this might be useful to you. If you are witnessing to a Muslim you're having a extensive conversation about the role of Jesus Christ and and why Jesus Christ Needs to be who he is in Christianity.

Take a listen to this. This is Sheikh yasser khadi discussing a hadith story relevant to the subject of intercession. Just second we'll try that again. Can we turn on there? There we go on the day of judgment.

Mankind will gather together Muslim and kafir mankind and they will begin Becoming scared and terrified there will not ever feel this type of terror that they feel on that day all of mankind and they will Talk to themselves, how can we get out of this this terrifying position that we're in and they will say let us go to Adam our father and Let us ask him to ask Allah.

To start the reckoning. Let's get over this stage. They're so scared of the day of judgment. They want to move on to the next stage whatever it might be. So they will go to Adam and they will say Oh Adam.

You are our father. And you are the one whom Allah created with his own hands and he blew his spirit into him and this and that. Make dua to Allah that he starts the hisab. Be our intermediary that he starts the hisab.

Adam will say I ate of the tree that I wasn't supposed to eat from. He will say today. My lord has become angry and anger the like of which he has never had before nor shall he ever have again. And I'm scared for myself.

Nafsi nafsi go to someone else go to Nuh and. So all of mankind will go to Nuh alayhi as-salam and they will say the same thing to him and Nuh will say the same. Thing back to them is that today? My lord has become angry a type of anger that he has never had before nor will he ever have again.

Allahumma na 'udhu bi ridaka min sakhatik and Nuh alayhi as-salam will say I Made dua to Allah for something that I should not have made dua. What dua is he referring to? To save his son, and so he will say because of this nafsi nafsi go to somebody else go to.

Who will he go to next? Ibrahim so they will go to Ibrahim alayhi as-salam. Ibrahim will say the same thing and he will say I lied three times In my life, I lied three times, and I'm scared for myself nafsi nafsi go to somebody else go to Musa what did Ibrahim lie three times.

Number one he said his wife was his sister, and it's not a lie a sister in Islam. Number two the idols number three. He said he was sick. Allah in Nisa clean. Okay, subhanallah look at The dangers of the Day of Judgment that the Prophet Ibrahim alayhi as-salam these are not lies none of them are lies.

They are we call tawdia or you know double meanings. None of them are and yet he is so scared in his whole life. All they can think of are these three things and he's scared that he has done this and he's scared for himself.

Go to somebody else go to Musa alayhi as-salam now. Let me stop just for a moment.

Just you know understand what's going on. A day of judgment. Everyone's gone to Adam. And then and they go to Abraham. They go to Noah and each one of these people is saying no. No, don't don't come to me for intercession because I know that Allah is Incredibly angry.

He's never been more angry than he is right now, and I'm scared for myself now. Remember in Islam Prophets are nigh unto sinless. Not not completely necessarily. But nigh unto sinless the the validity of the revelation that they give is dependent upon their personal character.

One of the major differences between Islam and Christianity is that the the one through whom the revelation comes his holiness is determinative in many ways of the Validity of the the revelation itself.

So Here Abraham doesn't can't can only come up out of his entire life with with three things. They weren't really even lies, but he's saying no do not come to me as an intercessor. That's what's going on.

So we we go from Abraham now to Moses.

They will go to Musa. Musa say well the say it say the same thing. Musa alayhis-salaam will say I kill somebody I shouldn't have killed. Meaning the who did he kill? The Egyptian that he shouldn't have killed.

He just smacked him this. Musa alayhis-salaam He just punched him. Next thing you know the guy is like KO'd immediately so he said I'm scared for this. Go to somebody else. Go to Isa. Isa will not mention any sin, but he will say the same statements But not mention any sin, and he will say I'm scared for myself.

Go to Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wasallam and so all. Now just just make sure you caught that.

Go to Isa. And Isa mentions no sins. But he still is Is afraid of Allah's wrath. Now why he would be afraid of Allah's wrath if he has no sins. I have absolutely no earthly idea, but he refuses this role of intercession.

And How can that happen. Well quite obviously because Muhammad probably knew nothing about the biblical teaching of the intercessory role of Jesus Christ. And. So now we go to Muhammad. Now listen to how Muhammad is described here.

All of mankind will go to the Prophet.

Sallallahu alayhi wasallam and will ask him the same things and he will say and I know how I know this is for me this is for me, and then he will go in front of the throne of Allah subhanahu wa'ta 'ala this hadith in Bukhari and Muslim and He said I will fall into such that for a qurru saajidin and he said Allah subhanahu wa'ta 'ala, I love this phrase will teach me a way to praise him that I don't know right now He will teach me how to praise him.

I don't know this right now. It's beautiful. Okay, for you, I'll limit him a Hamida, La I don't know how and he will remain in that position for as long as Allah will Praising him and then Allah subhanahu wa'ta 'ala will say yeah Muhammad it's a rucksack.

Settle to it. Oh cool to smile. Ishfa to Shafa. Raise your head speak you shall be heard ask you shall be given intercede your intercession. Will be accepted what's just happened the first condition Allah has given him permission.

The prophets of him couldn't just barge and demand. He couldn't do that He had to be given permission. So this is the maqam al-mahmood that the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wasallam will intercede on behalf of all All of mankind and that is why it is called the maqam al-mahmood.

All right. So there is the section of the lecture. I was listening to by sheikh astrakhani and Again As has been my experience so many times in listening to this and learning so much I never heard of something I learned in a previous ride and that is that He was talking about the jinn I had been taught I had read the jinn were basically demons.

They're not they're not fallen angels. The jinn are made from smokeless fire and There are all different kinds of jinn. There are Muslim jinn. There are Christian jinn. Evidently, they can only learn what we human beings know.

And so I guess if you're a jinn and you learn from Christians and you could be a Christian jinn. I Had never heard of that before. Please don't ask me any questions about that because like I said, I've never heard that before but bit as it may it was fascinating so but here over and over and over again, I keep running into these places where clearly Muhammad is being put in the place of Jesus now it is.

Is it the later centuries doing that? Yeah I mean hadith stories are at least 200 years after the time of Muhammad and most of them are being codified 250 270 years later, so I suppose that's part of it.

But Certainly The the question is how much did those early centuries did the people even know about Christianity or even know about the New Testament? Clearly Muhammad didn't know anything about the New Testament and Sadly may the Christians with whom he would have interaction how many times have I said, you know, what what books emphasize and Explain to us and give us divine revelation on the subject of the intercessory work of Christ.

Well, one of the key books is which one Hebrews and What book would be? Absolutely closed and locked. To a person who really doesn't know the scriptures at all and certainly doesn't have any knowledge of the Old Testament but the book of Hebrews and You have it in the high sections of Romans Christ intercessory work there as well but certainly the the idea of high priest and and appearing in the presence of God for us and in this whole concept of intercession the intercessor the mediator is especially brought out in those beautiful texts in Hebrews and It really seems like if anything had absolutely no impact whatsoever on Early Islam and Muhammad and and the the early centuries.

It would be the book of Hebrews. And so here you have just utter ignorance of the biblical teaching on this subject being reflected then in this I Mean I when you hear those words about ESA and of course Jesus isn't ESA.

I mean that is the Muslim Jesus, but Yeshua is is the proper term. We really don't know why the the Quran changes that but it's it's it's inappropriate to do so. But we we hear that and it's troubling to us.

In fact, it's in in a sense. It's offensive to us. I mean, let's let's face it. If you can't even disagree with Muhammad without people riding in the streets, then why can't Christians say, you know? It's really offensive for a religion coming after us to present Jesus in a way That's completely contradictory to the way the New Testament presents him.

I mean that is a direct contradiction of scriptural teaching. Is it not now it's done in ignorance by Muhammad. But it's certainly not done in ignorance by the generations that come after once they have the opportunity of knowing what the New Testament teaches and.

So you you listen to something like that and it should be troubling to you. But it also should should cause you to realize there is a need in Islam. And they're trying to fill that need there is no intercessor with Allah.

There is none who stands in the gap and so Muhammad has been has been thrust into standing in the gap and and Functioning in a way that he had no right to function. I mean from a biblical perspective.

He has no right to be an intercessor we understand the reason that Jesus has the right to be an intercessor is because of his Sinless life and his voluntarily giving himself on the cross of Calvary. Muhammad doesn't do anything like this.

He has no ground upon which to intercede in a meaningful fashion. And again, this was this was biblical revelation that long precedes Anything to be found in in the Quran and so I listened to that and I and I hear this Exaltation once again of Muhammad the fact that he has made the best of all of God's creations and and the the one who who gives us the model to follow and and all of these things and I just don't get the feeling that at least the early Muhammad ever had the idea that that's what people were gonna be doing In regards to himself, but bit as it may he's being forced into these roles because the theological system itself does not have a what it needs to have you have a transcendent God and You have a law that has been broken.

You have this fear which the hadith story itself relates this fear of the Day of Judgment. What ground then can you have upon which to have assurance of favor with Allah and so you have Muhammad and Muhammad intercedes for his ummah for his people and Later on he's gonna say well, you know, what's the what's the greatest way to make sure that you have?

Muhammad's intercession on the Day of Judgment but obviously it is the He says there anyone who says the Shahada La ilaha illallah. The did says that with a sincere heart. That's How to get Muhammad's intercession, but there's a problem.

Because even Muhammad's intercession is not guaranteed to bring about something from Allah and so there's this this Uncertainty that is always a part of one standing before God in the Islamic system. And so it's fascinating to me to listen to that and to consider the relationship that exists there, let's go ahead and take one of our phone calls and then Continue on with some of the stuff I have queued up here I did a lot of work in preparation for the program today, but let's talk with our old friend Adam.

Hi Adam.

How are you doing, sir. I'm doing pretty well. I wanted to call in because I heard a couple weeks ago on the podcast you were dealing with Peter Enns and Studying to be an Old Testament scholar and his work has really rocked the evangelical Old Testament scholarship and.

And There's figured maybe I could give you a little more perspective on where a lot of this is coming from that the problem as I see it, dr. White is that there are a lot of Evangelicals that are trying to sort of pull the line in between the two you have the left and you have the right and When you look at someone like Peter Enns, for instance, I have a professor you mentioned the phrase Creole ex nihilo.

Liberals really attack that because they want this to be nothing more than a pagan story, right and The reality is I have a professor of mine who believes in Creole ex nihilo. But he doesn't believe that Genesis teaches us.

Hmm and There's this real this real wedding of the two perspectives Within just an awful argument that he used. He takes the title view of Genesis 1 1 and he says it's been Husham. I have a heart everything but therefore that must Mean not mean creation from nothing because then he goes on and creates everything else.

But I said that would mean that I wouldn't be created by God because I was created after even the book of Genesis. And that doesn't make any sense that there's really this trying to toe the line Within scholarship and part of it is because of the fact I think two reasons number one because to be reformed.

And be an Old Testament scholar today. Because you do have the left coming in and saying if you're going to teach at our universities if we're going to quote you you're Going to have to believe what we have to say.

But you also have a lot of reformed folks who who do not like Studies in the Old Testament and a lot of folks who I have found I just got done with I'm just about done with my first year of Akkadian and Learning all these ways in which we can translate better knowing cognate languages.

But better fit the context and things like that. There are people who say Well, we should you know, we shouldn't do that because you know The Westminster Confession says God's words been providentially preserved and if that's the case and God's Word wasn't providentially Preserved and Calvin and then said and and there's really Thinking a lot of ways to go into this area and to deal with it and Peter ends by Irene together well, I think I think there's.

Really I've said for many many years that we gave the the Old Testament area over to the liberals a long time ago and you combine that with the insatiable desire on the part of major theological seminaries to be to have a table at the in secular scholarship to to be at the table to be in the discussion to have the recognition of secular scholarship results in a Blurring of the lines of definition there is clearly an issue in regards to the Lordship of Christ in the field of knowledge that that gets lost and I understand The the need to have high level Christian scholarship, but that scholarship always has to be done under the Lordship of Christ.

I think that's where things get lost. We we end up with with people who want to be able to cross over from the theological realm into the secular realm and continue teaching and so to do that they have to imbibe certain worldviews and be conversant with certain worldviews and and utilize certain presuppositions that result in exactly what we're talking about here, and that is a general decay of a supernatural worldview and a willingness to embrace a naturalistic worldview even if in on the one hand in their minds.

Even if they know enough about science to recognize the foolishness of naturalism, you know if they know in their minds. You know someone like myself. And I'm thinking sort of the debate. I've got coming up.

It's crossing my mind here, but With my science background and and studying the the tremendous complexity of the DNA molecule and the Transcription of that molecule and the the coding that it does for human life or any life for that matter I see the bankruptcy of naturalism.

I see really the stupidity of Naturalism there is such tremendous Evidence of the Creator right there and yet I have to spend so much time reading naturalistic materialist listen to naturalistic materialist that I know what the struggle is.

I know the the mindset that keeps coming in and I and I have to pray about that and I have to I have to Rationally recognize the struggle that is mine and recognize the sources that are bringing it into my experience and so I understand where the The Old Testament scholar is the vast majority of what has been published over the past 300 years is is from especially if it's in European province is Yeah, it's so far out in the woods as far as a rejection of the Old Testament.

And yet you still have these people trying to say well, I you know, I trust in Jesus for my salvation but I just cannot possibly look at the Old Testament the way he did and We have all the accommodation theories and everything else.

So well, Jesus was a man of his day and he was just accommodating himself to the Jews and blah blah blah. You know, I recognize all that stuff and and I I'm certain that at some point in the past and speaking to you I've talked about these very things in a sense of if that's the direction you're going.

I hope you realize that. You're you're gonna be swimming and you know up, you know upstream big time.

Doesn't bother it doesn't bother me. I guess the Most annoying is to good men of God Just go down this road and that you know, when you know, and that's what's so that's what's frustrating and then to Basically when your own people start, you know putting you in that category you do have this profession.

You know, well, I don't just to just recognize something. I think there's you know, I try to step back and and look at this situation. I try to step back and look at the at the broader picture as much as I can and One of the things that keeps coming across my mind as I consider this area people sort of going off the deep end in this area or looking at Converts who leave sound biblical faiths and join other Religions everyone's talking right now about you know, all is around this time of year.

There's always the Star converts Becoming Roman Catholics, you know newt gingrich has become a Roman Catholic. The fellow from the Discovery Institute that co-authored the privileged planet is becoming Roman Catholic.

And everybody's oh, you know, look at these people what they must have real deep reasons well, actually they generally don't but but be that as it may I try to take the the Overarching view and ask myself the question What is the relationship between the subject of God's blessing upon a nation and upon a church and what happens when the church is In a nation or a culture that is under the wrath of God.

What is my role as a as a Christian as an elder as a Christian as an elder in the congregation? One who deals with Christian scholarship. What is my role in the context of? God's wrath coming upon a particular culture and it is when you look at it in that way it is not at all surprising that given the Hatred that Western culture has for God and his word and his law Which we see being expressed with ever greater Ferocity In in frighteningly fast fashion within our even our own nation.

Then is it what would it not be a blessing upon our culture if we had a a whole cadre of Faithful scholars that were cranking out just tremendous works on these subjects not me a blessing upon our culture.

Well, it would be yeah, I have there not been times you know, I think Israel becomes a paradigm at times for the the the wrath Repentance restoration model that we see so often and have their whether or not many times, you know, I think of the restoration or Josiah where The people had forgotten what the law of God was and you see the revival that comes about when it is When it is discovered and believed and yet there are many times even in church history when the Word of God has been overlaid with such either tradition or unbelief that it almost disappears, but It doesn't and and God, you know brings his people through those times.

But the point is how do we respond? In a situation where we see the wrath of God coming upon our culture and and I think one of the things we need to Keep in mind is that means that people doing study like I do or like you're doing will have to recognize that We are going to see people who are going to Go away they are not going to remain because they were not truly of us and there's going to be this degradation and and there are going to be apostasies and if our Hope is fixed upon people or if our faith is is based upon You know majority votes and things like that then that's going to be extremely troubling.

But what it I think does Teach us is that we have to focus upon what is what is real truth? And what is its focus and what are we really believing in and when we do that, then I think we can we can learn from these situations, but There's no question that the field you're working in is You know filled.

I mean, I went to fuller for crying out loud. I You know, I mean, I mean I you know, I had I had to read You know the commentary on Deuteronomy that we had to read by Why is the names escaped me? I've mentioned it many times for Vaughn Deuteronomy and you know, I had to write a pro and con paper on it.

And the only pro I could come up with was it had a really nice binding on it, you know.

Really fair and there are a lot of things in here. I do think evangelicals need to wake up to. But the problem the problem is it was in pointing out that this is ambiguous the way he puts things. Oh, well, he's.

There was no conclusion to the book.

It's like okay, you know all I've worked through all this stuff and now I get the conclusion there's this this pitiful little chapter That basically says well we need to use the incarnational model whatever in the world that means.

I mean you were really left. Wondering why in the world he invested that amount of time in the production of something like that. There's no question and by the way The reason I was studying that as I was writing an article that will be in a future CRI journal a title doesn't air and see matter any longer and So I specifically interacted with ends.

I mean obviously since it's just an article you can only do so much but You know, but I did interact with some of the especially the Stuff that he was doing in Genesis and stuff like that. So that's why I was I was doing that and I finished that last week so.

Anyway, well, we need what we need. I have found that. What I like to see is when we have conservative who? Really come together and get each other's back. You know, you know. That's something that I really see and as you mentioned such a such a Community is that we not only need a lot of good scholars.

We need those scholars to get each other's back and so well and they and they need to be let's face it and what we're gonna need to go so we can take the break, but Let's face it. They need to be in teaching situations where they are encouraged to be bold in defense of Orthodoxy.

It really seems to me that the way that since we have borrowed since we have modeled our own educational system on secular education and We only define scholarship as coming up with new ideas. That's not really good for the defense of orthodoxy and You know, it tends to create create the very situation that we're facing here.

And until we recognize that That Christian scholarship needs to be done in service to the church in service of the gospel within the context of the church itself. You know, let's let's face it in the in 99 of theological seminaries.

What is the trend over time? It is always away from Christian Orthodoxy because we have borrowed the world's model of education until we get rid of it. We're going to continue having those problems. Adam press on.

Thank you, brother. Alrighty, we're gonna take our break and then be right back with Tony Costa and Shabbir Ali From London on the unbelievable radio program.

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Shabir Ali, the Resurrection, and the Swoon Theory

And welcome back to the dividing line. I have a cute up here. Excellent. Excellent call there. I know, you know, we should pray for folks like Adam. We need conservatives in that field that will work through you know, and it is it's like you're trudging uphill.

You are just climbing uphill everything you read. Has that tinge of unbelief that tinge of questioning God and and you're just constantly being hit with well. You just you're just thinking in circles and and it's all comes from naturalistic materialism, and it's amazing I know the bankruptcy of naturalistic materialism.

I know how stupid that is to to be a naturalistic materialist and yet the There's just so much of it around us that it's that it's it's tough to to fight the to fight the uphill battles. We need to pray for folks like that that are that are pressing on they'll find great delight and in fact an increase in their faith.

In in their studies, I mentioned that I have queued up here the a portion just a portion the end portion of. The debate between Shabir Ali and the Tony Costa from the unbelievable radio program Justin Briarley.

I was on myself back in November on that program. Look forward to being on it again in the future but they were discussing the resurrection and We all know Shabir's view on this if you have listened to my debate with him he takes the swoon theory idea.

He doesn't like it when you call the Ahmadiyya view. But that is what the they believe that Jesus was crucified, but that he came down from the cross alive. I've always you know listening to Shabir promote this idea has always just amazed me because the Romans were really good at executing people and He has to he has to just dig and dig and it's so sad to see someone as bright and as nice as Shabir Ali digging through literature to try to find Some basis for saying well, it's possible.

It's possible. That that Jesus did not die on the cross. I mean, you know when Josephus found, you know, the three of his friends crucified. He went to the Roman governor and they took the three down a one did survive two died but one.

And and and you know, that's not what happened to Jesus. But but Pilate Pilate was surprised Jesus died so quickly it was amazing I was and I'm gonna play some portions of it. I don't know if this came before this but one of the things that Shabir says is well You realize I'm not approaching this as a historian.

I'm approaching this as a Muslim theologian and yet he does not allow a Christian To have a supernatural explanation of anything in the text at all. How does Jesus die? Um, he gives his life. Oh, no. No, there has to be something that caused his death.

There has to be the the spear thrust. He just couldn't die that fast. So he's a Muslim theologian. But the Christian can't have a theological answer for anything that's going on. Even when his text says it's theological.

It is just incredible and then to listen to him. As you've heard in other debates we've played he will take the liberals. He will take the the farthest left stuff you can find and and what he'll do is he'll cherry-pick a certain Portion from Raymond Brown and and something from Barrett over here and he will will string all this stuff together and He ends up with a conclusion that none of the scholars he quotes themselves ever come to and People need to understand that because what Shabir likes to do is he likes to say well it is clear the scholars have shown no liberal scholars have speculated about XY or Z and You've taken all that stuff and strung it together and Created a cloth that no one else has ever come up with none of the scholars that you cite Actually see the things that you see in their own writings and make the connections that you do and yet Still you say well scholars have shown No individual scholars have speculated about a certain portion of this and I'm putting together a bunch of stuff that none of them ever thought About putting together and I'm calling that scholarship.

That's that's what you just need to understand is going on but what caused me to cue this up for today is I about rode off the trail today. Because Tony Costa was challenging him on something and for the first time now, maybe I've missed it.

Maybe I've forgotten it, you know I've only got a few years so I can get my WRP card so I can start making Excuses. Something like that, but I have never heard Shabir Ali cite Robert Price before. Robert Price of the incredible shrinking son of man.

Robert Price of the fringe fringe fringe. Remember when we played Ermin Bart Ehrman on with the with the infidel guy? That's the Robert Price they were talking about. Remember Irma's going nobody believes him.

Just like what? Way out there the guy who questions the existence of Jesus all the rest of stuff the guy. You know who basically I can see why he's doing the very same thing in his field. It should be early is doing it is he just ransacks everything finds any fact.