May 11, 2022 Show with Dr. Tom Ascol on “Dr. Tom Ascol’s Candidacy for SBC President” PLUS Keith Foskey on “Depression in the Lives of Christians”

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have a view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions. And now here's your host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 11th day of May 2022.

In fact, it is, I believe, if I'm not mistaken, the day after my guest's wedding anniversary. I think it was his 42nd, but I'll have him clarify that in a minute. We have two guests on today. The first hour, we will have Dr. Tom Askle, who is not only president of Founders Ministries, but he's also running for president of the Southern Baptist Convention, and he is senior pastor of Grace Baptist Church of Cape Coral, Florida.

The second hour will be joined by Keith Foskey, one of three pastors of Sovereign Grace Family Church of Jacksonville, Florida, who will be addressing the theme, Depression in the Lives of Christians.

But it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio with such an important announcement. Dr. Tom Askle.

Thank you so much, Chris. It's always a joy to be with you.

It's always a joy to have you on the program. And why don't you tell our listeners, first of all, about Founders Ministries.

Yeah, well, Founders is a ministry that began 40 years ago and covered the gospel around things like law and gospel and confession.

Now tell us about Grace Baptist Church of Cape Coral, Florida.

Yeah, Cape Coral is down here in Southwest Florida, and the church is a wonderful church. We're also going to celebrate our 40th anniversary as a church next year. I've been here 36 of those years. Being in South Florida, we've got a wide variety of...

It's a wonderful congregation. God's been so good to us. You could put up with me for 36 years, you know, deserves the name of Grace, because it takes a lot of grace to do that.

I find that hard to believe. You're such a likable, or should I even say lovable, individual. But I know that the church where I am a member is forever connected to Grace Baptist Church of Cape Coral, Florida, because the founder of Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle was the late Ernie Reisinger, and well-known amongst Reformed Baptists especially, and even some of our Presbyterian brethren.

And he was, I know, an elder at one time at Grace Baptist Church of Cape Coral. Who was the founder of Grace Baptist Church of Cape Coral?

Yeah, well, there was a...

Ernie got here, the church, and I got here...

Well, I intend to repeat this information later, but for those of you who are interested in finding out more about Founders Ministries, go to founders .org, founders .org. And for those of you who are interested in finding out more about Grace Baptist Church of Cape Coral, Florida, go to truegraceofgod .org, truegraceofgod .org.

Now, we are already announced today that you are running for candidacy of the president of the Southern Baptist Convention. You're already the president of Founders Ministries. What, do you want to be president of everything now?

That's a strange kind of providence, Chris. We need all hands on deck, but we took extra time to think and pray about it after...

Now, how has the original, or initial, I should say, reaction been to Southern Baptist's nationwide, worldwide hearing of your candidacy? And obviously, you know better than I do that the Southern Baptist Convention is known for not being monolithic.

There are debates and divisions, very strong and passionate and serious ones, that have existed not only over the doctrines of sovereign grace, which is why your ministry is called Founders Ministries, because all of the founders of the Southern Baptist Convention were, in fact, Calvinist, although a minority in that convention today.

And then you have differences of opinion over critical race theory and social justice and all kinds of things that continue to create tension and even, might I add, hostility in some cases between Southern Baptists.

So, what has been the reaction to the word of your candidacy?

Well, it's, as you could imagine, been a wide variety across, I think, what's happened.

Now, how often do they have a presidential election in the Southern Baptist Convention?

Yeah, there's an election every year. The president, he's not opposed to nominating...

Yeah, but didn't Lyndon Baines Johnson already say that? I'm sorry, I couldn't resist that.

I don't know.

Anyway, so that's how I got into it. Whoever gets elected this year, most likely, if they would like to, will be given the opportunity.

And I understand there's exciting news about Votie Balcom as well, running for an office.

That's right. You know, Votie is also going to be nominated for the presidency of the Southern Baptist pastors of the next generation.

Yeah, amen. Well, what would exactly, what would be the role and the function and the duties of a president of the Southern Baptist Convention?

Yeah, well, it's actually pretty, pretty fractious, designed for change, but not to allow for change, or nominates people to fill the vacancies of those...

And there are, as you know, Baptists who are autonomy purists, if you will. They are strong believers that one of the key pillars of Baptist polity, ecclesiology, is that congregations who are Baptists historically, and of course, they would argue biblically, should be self-governing, independent, autonomous congregations that have no other higher authority outside of the local eldership, other than Christ himself and his inerrant word.

How does the Southern Baptist Convention function? Is it truly a denomination that would violate those principles that many Baptists cherish and hold to tenaciously as a key tenet of Baptist polity? Or is there something unique about the structure that enables them to be a denomination without violating those things?

Yeah, well, no. I will say that that really is true denominationally, but it genuinely is true. Now, some churches lose sight of that. That's not true. You can get lost and persuade or...

Now, I mentioned moments ago some of the issues of debate and tension amongst Southern Baptist leaders and congregations and individuals. You have the really sharp contrast between those that are thoroughgoing Calvinists, also known as Reformed Baptists, and Sovereign Grace Christians.

There are many nicknames and labels for those of us that are Reformed and confessionally Reformed in our soteriology and other matters involving the faith. There is a majority of those that, in one level of hostility or another, oppose those things.

There are some that have more of an ironic spirit over those things, but there are those that actually think it's rank heresy to believe what you and I believe. In addition to that divide, as I said earlier, you've got those that seem to be... have warmed up, at the very least, to critical race theory and social justice.

I don't know how much things have changed since the 80s, but are there rank liberals still in the ranks of the Southern Baptist Convention?

No, I don't think so. One of the interesting... Not just in the SBC, but we need to unions on which we stand. And I've told some of my buddies, you know, my new friends and some I've had a long... Enables us to sit down and we'll start as brothers, knowing that we are brothers and in our hearts because God has helped us to unite around the things we do agree upon.

We're going to pick up right where you left off when we return from our first break. If anybody has a question for Dr. Tom Askell about his candidacy for president of the Southern Baptist Convention or any question involving the Southern Baptist Convention in general, or theological issues, please feel free to email us at chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, at least, your city and state and country of residence if you live outside the USA. If you do have a question for Dr. Askell, please try to send it in quickly because he's only on for the first hour due to his very busy schedule, as would be expected, especially these days running for the SBC president.

So if you have a question for Dr. Askell, please send it in as quickly as possible. We do have a second guest speaking on depression, Keith Foskey, and you may feel free to send in questions for him as well.

But if you have a question for Dr. Askell, please send it in quickly. Don't go away. We're going to be right back right after these messages from our sponsors.

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Welcome back, this is Chris Zarnes, and our guest is Dr. Tom Askle, who is running for president of the Southern Baptist Convention, and we do have an anonymous listener. The anonymous listener says, I'm remaining anonymous because I have a lot of tension with my own church over being favorable to the Southern Baptist Convention, and they are extremely opposed to it.

But my question is, how do I respond to my fellow members of my church when they say to be president of an organization like that, that is so filled with division, it would require a president to compromise on very serious doctrinal matters?

Well, I mean, that's a prejudgment. Of course, everybody can make prejudgments the way that they want to, but, you know, I mean, I believe in God, and I don't know why Christians who believe in the God who raises the dead do not believe that God can do something in a wonderful way to bring about serious change in any organization.

And I want to sit on a good road. It's a denomination in North American seminaries. You think about where they're going to come from, and many of those children of those in your church will have been trained in trying to make those institutions as healthy as possible, and there's a way to try to convince people too long about these things.

You need to work for accountability that the churches who pay.

Well, thank you, Anonymous. If you are a first-time questioner, send me your full name and mailing address. Obviously, that will be kept confidential, since you requested to be anonymous. But we will send you, as we always do with first-time questioners, a brand-new New American Standard Bible, compliments of the publishers of the NASB, and also compliments of Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com.

We'll be shipping that Bible out to you at no charge to you or to Iron, Sharp, and Zion Radio. We have, let's see, we have Joseph in South Central Pennsylvania, and Joseph asks, are there any people who are so far off the mark of Christian theology and what is truly biblically orthodox that you believe they should not remain in the pastorate in the Southern Baptist Convention?

I believe that we've got serious problems. I'm hedging a little bit, is because we have boundaries as Southern Baptist Convention. We have a Baptist faith and message. That Baptist faith and message says, is limited to qualified men.

Well, we have churches and said, you know, we're ordaining women to be pastors. No, they shouldn't be in the SBC. Does that mean they're not orthodox? Does that mean they're not Christian? Well, no, they could be Christian.

They could believe the orthodox tenets of the faith, but they don't agree enough with who we say we're going to be to be a part. We have established boundaries and what we need to do is make sure those boundaries are understood and that churches that want to wander outside of them.

No longer churches.

They can do that if they want to, but they can't do that and stay a part of the SBC because the Southern Baptist Convention is also autonomous. And though we cannot, as a convention, dictate what any one church does, we can say to that church, you are not a part of who we are.

You cannot remain in friendly cooperation with us because you have chosen a path that is contrary.

Yes, very well said. People might have an initial gut reaction if they're very conservative and they're very strong proponents of complementarianism. They may have an initial gut reaction of anger towards any softness on the ordination of women, but I have learned over the years, even though I am unwaveringly complementarian in my understanding of leadership in the church and in the home, I do not believe in the ordination of women in the church.

I don't believe that they should teach or have authority over men and I don't believe they should be ruling their households either. But I've come to learn and have become close friends with brothers in Christ who are members of conservative evangelical denominations that have historically ordained women going back centuries, largely that have some kind of an affiliation with the Wesleyan holiness movement.

So I don't think that people should initially, without taking a deep breath and finding out more, initially think that it's always because of a leftist decline that a church believes in the ordination of women.

And I know that I'll probably get hate mail for saying that. Once again, I don't believe in the ordination of women, but I think that we have to sometimes be less hostile and make sure we understand why a certain congregation or denomination is doing that.

No, that's exactly right. Creating, denying the deity of Christ and saying that we think women can be pastors. Disagree with both, obviously. But I'm going to disagree far more with the deity of Christ than I am with a church with them.

Erroneous in that understanding.

Yeah, it might surprise a lot of our Reformed listeners, but Roger Nicole was an egalitarian when it came to leadership. He believed in the ordination of women, which was a shock to me when I found out about that.

Yeah, I talked to Roger about that, you know, and I told him, I said, it just seems to me that you're so on all of these issues that we might otherwise talk about. When we get to women, it just seems to me you go experiential.

You tell me about stories of people you know. I mean, goodness, he could put me in his pocket. I mean, he was a great theologian and brilliant mind and a humble man. But we disagreed on that point. And we had lively debates about it.

Yep, as we have with our Pato Baptist brethren.

Right, that's right.

Some, I'm not saying all, but some are driven to the Pato Baptist position because they cannot stand the possibility of thinking that their children should be viewed as a mission field and not as a part of the Regenerate Church.

They just find that incomprehensible, that they are to view their children as lost until they give convincing evidence otherwise.

No, that's right. It's sad.

Yes, and remember my Pato Baptist friends, many of whom are on this show, I said. Some of the Pato Baptists I've met, I think have an emotional roots in their converting over to that position.

No, that's right. And, you know, I mean, you and I both, we've got, in fact, our upcoming conference January 2023 is going to be what is man, the doctrine of man, which is so crucial right now. And one of our keynote speakers is Joe Beeky.

You know, he's Joe's old friend, long time friend. And he's the best kind of...

Yes, he actually does believe children are a mission field in the home. He does not believe that we should automatically assume that our children, the children of Christian parents, are among the elect until they prove they're not.

He believes the reverse, just like Baptist did.

Yeah, that's right. Yeah. His writings about children...

We have BB in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, who wants to know, what are the major accomplishments that you would hope and pray would come to fruition after your year as president, if God ordains that you win?

Yeah, well, I think perhaps my greatest goal, our greatest desire would be for something to happen that is not a part of the official responsibility of the president. I would love to have the opportunity to try to create conversations about spiritual matters.

I mean, Chris, this is my number one concern. I think that by and large, Southern Baptists have lost this, and that we must recover that. And we need to be humbled before who we are, what we are. Look to God for...

There's not one problem that evangelicals or it would not be... I can get pastors to start thinking about that, studying that, seeking God together.

Amen. We have another anonymous listener who says, my pastor thinks that one cannot be a Reformed Baptist in the Southern Baptist Convention without being unevenly yoked. How should I respond to him?

Yeah, well, I get that, and I understand that. The Southern Baptist Convention, it's, as I said before, it's a voluntary... So I've not given up one of my convictions. We are somehow committed to, and we have to cooperate in everything that goes on in the SPC, and the nature of the association.

Polity is a hearing denomination coming together. So that's my response, but I know it doesn't convince everybody. But if you look at the polity...

Yes, I even said during an interview with one of my own pastors recently, Pastor Simon O'Maney, who I had the privilege of interviewing on my show, not long ago. I was saying that although I strongly, not only believe, but cherish the doctrines of sovereign grace, if I was in an area where I had a choice between a Reformed Baptist church that was violating the concepts of appropriate governing by elders, and they were tyrannical, and they were bordering on being cultic in the way that they abused their authority, and I had another church that was Arminian, but I knew that the men pastoring that church were godly shepherds, and they were not hostile to the doctrines that I love, just not in agreement with them, I would likely prefer to join the Arminian church.

And I don't think that that would make me unevenly yoked. In fact, I even know a man who is a thoroughgoing Reformed Baptist who joined a Calvary Chapel congregation not long ago because the professedly Reformed church he was in had adopted critical race theory and social justice and so forth.

Yeah, I've seen that similar type of thing happen, Chris, especially over the last couple of years. And church history helps us a lot here, too. The story of William Carey going to India where the original people, and they welcomed him at the Lord's solar blue gasket.

He said, we're the only Christians in the continent. I'm not going to divide over this. And it's touching, those letters back and forth are touching. And both of the men had a point. We just have to think beyond our little, we recognize that some of our arguments aren't as ironclad as we might think them to be because they've not been challenged by real life circumstances like you just described.

And you do have those that might disagree with you and me on the specific doctrines known as Calvinism, the tulip. They may disagree with us on those things, but they may have a deeper insight and stronger hold on other areas of scripture and theology.

Oh, absolutely. One of the questions I've got from some of my non-Calvinist friends, or they've been sent to me by non-Calvinists I don't know is, hey, Tom, if you become president of the SBC, are you only going to appoint Calvinists to your committees?

And my response is no. In fact, there are some Calvinists I will not appoint because I don't think they're straight. They're not thinking clearly on these key issues that we've got to address today. So it goes back to what do we agree on, non-negotiables, and then what do we agree on that are vitally important that we need to cling to?

And then what do we have room to disagree on, like eschatology details and things like that? I want to be able to hold very tight orthodox. And that we get the ally cooperator.

Well, we are almost out of time. We've got to cut to our midway break in about six minutes. So I want to make sure that you summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today in regard to your candidacy for president of the SBC.

And we'll be obviously having to cut our interview to only the first half at your request because of your busy schedule. So why don't you summarize what you most want to leave our listeners with today?

Yeah, well, please pray for me. Pray for the Southern Baptist Convention. Because as I said earlier, it matters. It matters in the evangelical world in North America. And not just North America. It matters in the work of the gospel around the world.

So as God brings it to mind, please pray for renewed humility and a renewed commitment to the living God. Jesus Christ to be made known. He is the only savior. Everyone needs to be reconciled to God. And that's the message that every Christian as we go and make disciples.

And this organization known as the Southern Baptist Convention, we're going to cooperate in a way far better than we could do. And it's not been perfect. And we've got our promise in a revival. A genuine, regardless of cost or con, that a rising tide will raise all ships.

And God's position in the SBC, the way he has, is darker. And we see more and more hostility. Like, what is a man? And what is a woman? Such people don't stand up and claim the light of his gospel of salvation to those who are in desperate need.

But if God is pleased to do it, our generation. And that's my prayer. And I would just ask others who know the Lord Jesus Christ.

Well, thank you so much, Dr. Raskel. As always, you are an extraordinary guest. And I eagerly look forward to having you back on. I hope that the next time you return, you're on for the full two hours as you see how fast our time went.

Yeah.

And I appreciate you having me on, Chris. I wish I could stay longer, but I've got another appointment that I've got to get to. And I'm glad that we could work it out to have at least this much time together.

So thanks a lot.

Amen. And I want to repeat your websites for Founders Ministries. Go to founders .org. And for Grace Baptist Church of Cape Coral, Florida, go to truegraceofgod .org, truegraceofgod .org. Thanks so much, Dr. Raskel.

We'll talk to you soon, God willing.

Thank you, brother.

Bye-bye. Bye-bye now. And don't go away, folks, because we do have during the second hour my good friend, Pastor Keith Foskey, one of three pastors at Sovereign Grace Family Church of Jacksonville, Florida, who will be addressing depression in the lives of Christians.

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