May 11, 2022 Show with Dr. Tom Ascol on “Dr. Tom Ascol’s Candidacy for SBC President” PLUS Keith Foskey on “Depression in the Lives of Christians”

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron.

This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing

the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens

another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to

have a view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with

your own questions.

And now here's your host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the

planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this

11th day of May 2022.

In fact, it is, I believe, if I'm not mistaken, the day after my

guest's wedding anniversary.

I think it was his 42nd, but I'll have him clarify that in a minute.

We have two guests on today.

The first hour, we will have Dr. Tom Askle, who is not only president of

Founders Ministries, but he's also running for president of the Southern Baptist Convention,

and he is senior pastor of Grace Baptist Church of Cape Coral, Florida.

The second hour will be joined by Keith Foskey, one of three pastors of

Sovereign Grace Family Church of Jacksonville, Florida, who will be addressing the theme, Depression in the

Lives of Christians.

But it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio with such an important announcement.

Dr. Tom Askle.

Thank you so much, Chris.

It's always a joy to be with you.

It's always a joy to have you on the program.

And why don't you tell our listeners, first of all, about Founders Ministries.

Yeah, well, Founders is a ministry that began 40 years ago and

covered the gospel around things

like law

and

gospel and

confession.

Now tell us about Grace Baptist Church of Cape Coral, Florida.

Yeah, Cape Coral is down here in Southwest Florida, and the church is a wonderful church.

We're also going to celebrate our 40th anniversary as a church next year.

I've been here 36 of those years.

Being in South Florida, we've got a wide variety of...

It's a wonderful congregation.

God's been so good to us.

You could put up with me for 36 years, you know, deserves the name of Grace, because it takes a lot of grace to do

that.

I find that hard to believe.

You're such a likable, or should I even say lovable, individual.

But I know that the church where I am a member is forever connected

to Grace Baptist Church of Cape Coral, Florida, because the founder of Grace Baptist Church of

Carlisle was the late Ernie Reisinger, and well -known amongst

Reformed Baptists especially, and even some of our Presbyterian brethren.

And he was, I know, an elder at one time at Grace Baptist Church of Cape Coral.

Who was the founder of Grace Baptist Church of Cape Coral?

Yeah, well, there was a...

Ernie got

here, the

church, and I

got here...

Well, I intend to repeat this information later, but for those of you who are interested in finding out more about

Founders Ministries, go to founders .org, founders .org.

And for those of you who are interested in finding out more about Grace Baptist Church of Cape Coral, Florida, go to

truegraceofgod .org, truegraceofgod .org.

Now, we are already announced today that you are running for candidacy

of the president of the Southern Baptist Convention.

You're already the president of Founders Ministries.

What, do you want to be president of everything now?

That's a strange kind of providence, Chris.

We

need all

hands on deck,

but we

took

extra time to think

and pray

about it after...

Now, how has the original, or initial, I should say, reaction

been to Southern Baptist's nationwide, worldwide

hearing of your candidacy?

And obviously, you know better than I do that the Southern Baptist Convention is known for not being

monolithic.

There are debates and divisions, very strong and passionate and serious ones, that

have existed not only over the doctrines of sovereign grace, which is why

your ministry is called Founders Ministries, because all of the founders of the Southern Baptist Convention were,

in fact, Calvinist, although a minority in that convention today.

And then you have differences of opinion over critical race theory and social justice and all

kinds of things that continue to create tension and even,

might I add, hostility in some cases between Southern Baptists.

So, what has been the reaction to the word of your candidacy?

Well, it's, as you could imagine, been a wide variety across,

I think, what's

happened.

Now, how often do they have a presidential election in the Southern Baptist Convention?

Yeah, there's an election every year.

The

president,

he's

not

opposed

to

nominating...

Yeah, but didn't Lyndon Baines Johnson already say that?

I'm sorry, I couldn't resist that.

I don't know.

Anyway, so that's how I got into it.

Whoever gets elected this year, most likely, if they would like to, will be given the opportunity.

And I understand there's exciting news about Votie Balcom as well, running for an office.

That's right.

You know, Votie is also going to be nominated for the presidency of

the

Southern

Baptist pastors

of

the

next

generation.

Yeah, amen.

Well, what would exactly, what would be the role and the function and the duties of a

president of the Southern Baptist Convention?

Yeah, well,

it's

actually

pretty,

pretty

fractious,

designed for change, but not to allow for change,

or nominates

people to

fill the vacancies of those...

And there are, as you know, Baptists who

are autonomy purists, if you will.

They are strong believers that one of the key

pillars of Baptist polity,

ecclesiology, is that congregations who are Baptists historically,

and of course, they would argue biblically, should be self -governing, independent,

autonomous congregations that have no other higher authority

outside of the local eldership, other than Christ himself and his inerrant word.

How does the Southern Baptist Convention function?

Is it truly a denomination that would violate those principles that many

Baptists cherish and hold to tenaciously as a key tenet of

Baptist polity?

Or is there something unique about the structure that enables them to be a denomination without violating those

things?

Yeah, well, no.

I will

say that that really is

true denominationally,

but it genuinely is true.

Now, some churches lose sight of that.

That's not true.

You can get

lost and persuade or...

Now, I mentioned moments ago some of the issues of debate and tension

amongst Southern Baptist leaders and congregations and individuals.

You have the really sharp contrast between

those that are thoroughgoing Calvinists, also known as Reformed Baptists, and

Sovereign Grace Christians.

There are many nicknames and labels for those of us that are Reformed and confessionally

Reformed in our soteriology and other matters involving the faith.

There is a majority of those that, in one level of

hostility or another, oppose those things.

There are some that have more of an ironic spirit over those things, but there are those that actually think

it's rank heresy to believe what you and I believe.

In addition to that divide, as I said earlier, you've got those that seem to be... have

warmed up, at the very least, to critical race theory and social justice.

I don't know how much things have changed since the 80s, but are there rank

liberals still in the ranks of the Southern Baptist Convention?

No, I don't think so.

One of the interesting...

Not just in

the

SBC,

but we need

to

unions

on

which

we stand.

And I've told some of my buddies, you know, my new friends and some I've had a long...

Enables us to

sit down and we'll

start as brothers, knowing that we are brothers and in our hearts

because God has helped us to unite around the things we do agree upon.

We're going to pick up right where you left off when we return from our first break.

If anybody has a question for Dr. Tom Askell about his

candidacy for president of the Southern Baptist Convention or any question involving the Southern Baptist Convention in

general, or theological issues, please feel free to email us at

chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, at least, your city and state and country of residence if you live outside the USA.

If you do have a question for Dr. Askell, please try to send it in quickly because

he's only on for the first hour due to his very busy schedule, as would be expected, especially these

days running for the SBC president.

So if you have a question for Dr. Askell, please send it in as quickly as possible.

We do have a second guest speaking on depression, Keith Foskey,

and you may feel free to send in questions for him as well.

But if you have a question for Dr. Askell, please send it in quickly.

Don't go away.

We're going to be right back right after these messages from our sponsors.

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I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love, Hope

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It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God, like the dear saints at Hope Reform Baptist Church

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on Iron Sharpens Iron.

Welcome back, this is Chris Zarnes, and our guest is Dr. Tom Askle, who is running for president

of the Southern Baptist Convention, and we do have an anonymous listener.

The anonymous listener says, I'm remaining anonymous because I have a lot of tension with my own church

over being favorable to the Southern Baptist Convention, and they are extremely opposed to it.

But my question is, how do I respond to my fellow members of my church

when they say to be president of an organization like that, that is so filled with

division, it would require a president to compromise on very serious

doctrinal matters?

Well, I mean, that's a prejudgment.

Of course, everybody can make prejudgments the way that they want to, but, you know, I

mean, I believe in God, and I don't know why Christians who believe in the God who raises the dead do

not believe that God can do something in a wonderful way to bring about serious change in

any organization.

And I want to sit on a good road.

It's a denomination in North American

seminaries.

You think about where they're going to come from,

and many of those children of those in your church will have been trained

in trying to make those institutions as healthy as possible, and there's a way

to try to convince people too long about these things.

You need to work for accountability that

the churches who pay.

Well, thank you, Anonymous.

If you are a first -time questioner, send me your full name and mailing address.

Obviously, that will be kept confidential, since you requested to be anonymous.

But we will send you, as we always do with first -time questioners, a brand -new New American Standard Bible,

compliments of the publishers of the NASB, and also compliments of Cumberland Valley Bible Book

Service, cvbbs .com.

We'll be shipping that Bible out to you at no charge to you or to Iron, Sharp, and Zion Radio.

We have, let's see, we have Joseph in South Central

Pennsylvania, and Joseph asks, are there any people who

are so far off the mark of Christian theology

and what is truly biblically orthodox that you believe they should not remain in the

pastorate in the Southern Baptist Convention?

I believe that we've got serious problems.

I'm hedging a little bit, is because

we have boundaries as Southern Baptist Convention.

We have a Baptist faith and message.

That Baptist faith and message says, is limited to qualified men.

Well, we have churches and said, you know, we're ordaining women to be

pastors.

No, they shouldn't be in the SBC.

Does that mean they're not orthodox?

Does that mean they're not Christian?

Well, no, they could be Christian.

They could believe the orthodox tenets of the faith, but they don't agree enough with who we say we're going to be

to be a part.

We have established boundaries and what we need to do is make sure those boundaries are

understood and that churches that want to wander outside of them.

No longer churches.

They can do that if they want to, but they can't do that and stay a part of the SBC because the Southern

Baptist Convention is also autonomous.

And though we cannot, as a convention, dictate what any one church does, we can say to

that church, you are not a part of who we are.

You cannot remain in friendly cooperation with us because you have chosen a path that is contrary.

Yes, very well said.

People might have an initial gut reaction if they're very conservative and

they're very strong proponents of complementarianism.

They may have an initial gut reaction of anger towards any

softness on the ordination of women, but I have learned over the years, even though I

am unwaveringly complementarian in my understanding of leadership

in the church and in the home, I do not believe in the ordination of women in

the church.

I don't believe that they should teach or have authority over men and I don't believe they should be ruling their households either.

But I've come to learn and have become close friends with brothers in Christ who are members of

conservative evangelical denominations that have historically ordained women

going back centuries, largely that have some kind of an affiliation with the Wesleyan holiness movement.

So I don't think that people should initially, without taking a deep breath and finding

out more, initially think that it's always because of a leftist decline that a

church believes in the ordination of women.

And I know that I'll probably get hate mail for saying that.

Once again, I don't believe in the ordination of women, but I think that we have to sometimes be less hostile

and make sure we understand why a certain congregation or denomination is doing that.

No, that's exactly right.

Creating, denying the deity of Christ and saying that we think women

can be pastors.

Disagree with both, obviously.

But I'm going to disagree far more with the deity of Christ

than I am with a church with them.

Erroneous in that understanding.

Yeah, it might surprise a lot of our Reformed listeners, but Roger Nicole was an egalitarian when it came

to leadership.

He believed in the ordination of women, which was a shock to me when I found out about that.

Yeah, I talked to Roger about that, you know, and I told him, I said, it just seems to me that you're so

on all of these issues that we might otherwise talk about.

When we get to women, it just seems to me you go experiential.

You tell me about stories of people you know.

I mean, goodness, he could put me in his pocket.

I mean, he was a great theologian and brilliant mind and a humble man.

But we disagreed on that point.

And we had lively debates about it.

Yep, as we have with our Pato Baptist brethren.

Right, that's right.

Some, I'm not saying all, but some are driven to the Pato Baptist position because they cannot

stand the possibility of thinking that their children should be viewed as a mission

field and not as a part of the Regenerate Church.

They just find that incomprehensible, that they are to view their children as lost until they

give convincing evidence otherwise.

No, that's right.

It's sad.

Yes, and remember my Pato Baptist friends, many of whom are on this show, I said.

Some of the Pato Baptists I've met, I think have an emotional

roots in their converting over to that position.

No, that's right.

And, you know, I mean, you and I both, we've got, in fact, our upcoming conference

January 2023 is going to be what is man, the doctrine of man, which is so crucial right now.

And one of our keynote speakers is Joe Beeky.

You know, he's Joe's old friend, long time friend.

And he's the best kind of...

Yes, he actually does believe children are a mission field in the home.

He does not believe that we should automatically assume that our children,

the children of Christian parents, are among the elect until they prove they're not.

He believes the reverse, just like Baptist did.

Yeah, that's right.

Yeah.

His writings about children...

We have BB in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, who wants to know,

what are the major accomplishments that you would hope and pray

would come to fruition after your year as president, if God ordains that you win?

Yeah, well, I think perhaps my greatest goal, our greatest desire would be for something

to happen that is not a part of the official responsibility of the president.

I would love to have the opportunity to try to create conversations about

spiritual matters.

I mean, Chris, this is my number one concern.

I think that by and large, Southern Baptists have lost this, and that we must

recover that.

And we need to be humbled before who we

are, what we are.

Look to God for...

There's not one problem that evangelicals or it would not be...

I can get

pastors to start thinking about that, studying that, seeking God together.

Amen.

We have another anonymous listener who says, my pastor thinks that

one cannot be a Reformed Baptist in the Southern Baptist Convention without being

unevenly yoked.

How should I respond to him?

Yeah, well, I get that, and I understand that.

The Southern Baptist Convention, it's, as I said before, it's a voluntary...

So I've not given up one of my convictions.

We are somehow committed to, and we have to cooperate in everything that goes on in the SPC,

and the nature of the association.

Polity is a

hearing

denomination

coming together.

So that's my response, but I know it doesn't convince everybody.

But if you look at the polity...

Yes, I even said during an interview with one of my own pastors

recently, Pastor Simon O'Maney, who I had the privilege of interviewing on

my show, not long ago.

I was saying that although I strongly, not only believe, but

cherish the doctrines of sovereign grace, if I was in an area

where I had a choice between a Reformed Baptist church that was

violating the concepts of appropriate

governing by elders, and they were tyrannical, and they were bordering on being cultic

in the way that they abused their authority, and I had another church that was Arminian, but I knew that the

men pastoring that church were godly shepherds, and they were not hostile to

the doctrines that I love, just not in agreement with them, I would likely prefer to join

the Arminian church.

And I don't think that that would make me unevenly yoked.

In fact, I even know a man who is a thoroughgoing Reformed Baptist

who joined a Calvary Chapel congregation not long ago because the professedly Reformed church

he was in had adopted critical race theory and social justice and so forth.

Yeah, I've seen that similar type of thing happen, Chris, especially over the last couple of years.

And church history helps us a lot here, too.

The story of William Carey going to India where the original people,

and they welcomed him at the Lord's

solar blue gasket.

He said, we're the only Christians in the continent.

I'm not going to divide over this.

And it's touching, those letters back and forth are touching.

And both of the men had a point.

We just have to think beyond our little, we recognize that

some of our arguments aren't as ironclad as we might think them to be because they've not been challenged by

real life circumstances like you just described.

And you do have those that might disagree with you and me

on the specific doctrines known as Calvinism, the tulip.

They may disagree with us on those things, but they may have a deeper insight and stronger

hold on other areas of scripture and theology.

Oh, absolutely.

One of the questions I've got from some of my non -Calvinist friends, or they've been sent to me by non -Calvinists I don't know is,

hey, Tom, if you become president of the SBC, are you only going to appoint Calvinists to your committees?

And my response is no.

In fact, there are some Calvinists I will not appoint because I don't think they're straight.

They're not thinking clearly on these key issues that we've got to address today.

So it goes back to what do we agree on, non -negotiables,

and then what do we agree on that are vitally important that we need to cling to?

And then what do we have room to disagree on, like eschatology details and things

like that?

I want to be able to hold very

tight orthodox.

And that we get the ally cooperator.

Well, we are almost out of time.

We've got to cut to our midway break in about six minutes.

So I want to make sure that you summarize what you most want etched in the

hearts and minds of our listeners today in regard to your candidacy for president of the SBC.

And we'll be obviously having to cut our interview to only the

first half at your request because of your busy schedule.

So why don't you summarize what you most want to leave our listeners with today?

Yeah, well, please pray for me.

Pray for the Southern Baptist Convention.

Because as I said earlier, it matters.

It matters in the evangelical world in North America.

And not just North America.

It matters in the work of the gospel around the world.

So as God brings it to mind, please pray for renewed humility

and a renewed commitment to the living God.

Jesus Christ to be made known.

He is the only savior.

Everyone needs to be

reconciled to

God.

And that's the message that every Christian

as we go and make disciples.

And this organization known as the Southern Baptist Convention,

we're going to cooperate in a way

far better than we could do.

And it's not been perfect.

And we've got our promise in a

revival.

A genuine, regardless of cost

or con,

that a rising tide will raise all ships.

And God's position in the SBC, the way he has, is darker.

And we see more and more hostility.

Like, what is a man?

And what is a woman?

Such people don't stand up and claim the light

of his gospel of salvation to those who are

in desperate need.

But if God is

pleased to do

it, our generation.

And that's my prayer.

And I would just ask others who know the Lord Jesus Christ.

Well, thank you so much, Dr. Raskel.

As always, you are an extraordinary guest.

And I eagerly look forward to having you back on.

I hope that the next time you return, you're on for the full two hours as you see how fast our time

went.

Yeah.

And I appreciate you having me on, Chris.

I wish I could stay longer, but I've got another appointment that I've got to get to.

And I'm glad that we could work it out to have at least this much time together.

So thanks a lot.

Amen.

And I want to repeat your websites for Founders Ministries.

Go to founders .org.

And for Grace Baptist Church of Cape Coral, Florida, go to truegraceofgod .org,

truegraceofgod .org.

Thanks so much, Dr. Raskel.

We'll talk to you soon, God willing.

Thank you, brother.

Bye -bye.

Bye -bye now.

And don't go away, folks, because we do have during the second hour my good friend,

Pastor Keith Foskey, one of three pastors at Sovereign Grace Family Church of Jacksonville, Florida, who

will be addressing depression in the lives of Christians.

And this is the longer than normal break.

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Last but not least if you are not a member of a biblically faithful doctrinally

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But i need a church in the subject line.

That's also the email address where you can send in a question to pastor keith foskey of sovereign grace

family church of jacksonville florida and we are discussing a very important theme depression

in the lives of christians something that is very near and dear to my heart because i have

battled depression for most of my life in various degrees of intensity

and in various seasons of frequency.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to discuss this important topic.

Pastor keith foskey.

Hi chris thank you for having me today i appreciate it and i do look forward to talking about this.

This is close to my heart as well.

And if you could also just as you did last time give our audience who is unfamiliar

with sovereign grace family church of jacksonville florida a brief introduction to that church.

Okay well my name is keith foskey i'm the pastor of sovereign grace and we are on the

and we'd love to have you visit with us.

We are a.

Help andy montoro who you know who is a former pastor in your life and brother mike

caulure we serve together.

Yes andy was one of my precious late wife's pastors while she

was still with us on long island new york and uh that was that would be

first baptist church of lindenhurst long island.

And i have very many very fond memories of dear brother pastor andy montoreo

montoro sorry about for the mispronunciation and his lovely bride candy and

so i'm always glad to bring them to my memory.

Yeah he always says that because you know he's from up north and we're from down here.

He always says he's from the south too but it's the south bronx.

Well if anybody wants more information about sovereign grace family church in jacksonville florida go to

s g f c jacks that's j a x dot org

s g for sovereign grace f c for family church jacks

which is an abbreviation for jacksonville j a x dot org and we will god willing

repeat that later on in the program.

So pastor keith why is it that you specifically chose

this very not only important topic but a topic that is

likely much more common amongst bible -believing christians globally

than we even know about.

Because it's the kind of thing where many people do not make

this a matter of public knowledge.

They don't they don't share their depression with their family

friends and loved ones because they don't want to bring their own mood down.

They don't want to disturb people they care about by making them depressed.

Perhaps.

There's all kinds of reasons why people do not share this

intimate detail with others but tell us why you selected this topic.

Well recently i had a very dear friend

he was unaware that an anxiety myself.

My discussion with him

you know i've counseled people in this condition.

I was able to sort of share my own issues and my own sufferings.

And i think it gave him a little different perspective because going in

he may have considered it almost a sinful thing.

And and and i'm not i should.

He's a wonderful wonderful pastor and friend but i but we were discussing the idea of anxiety.

And it certainly can.

We are told to not worry about anything.

And yet we do and i and yet at

the same time holiness is a daily struggle.

We're told not to worry we still struggle with that and therefore it's

until we reach our condition in the new heavens

and the new with these things.

And i as a with it maybe more than others

feel like i can maybe share some insights as to what has helped me

when those seasons were coming on and that's that's that's sort of the term that i use is the term seasons.

There have been seasons of

depression in my life that come on almost they're coming and you feel the crisp

air and you feel the you see the leaves changing and you know things are happening and you can kind of almost feel

that in your soul that you feel the sort of darkness that's that's coming and and and you have to deal with

it and um talk about today is this young man this friend

brought it to my attention again and i thought what how many how many others out there are sort of struggling with it

and that that was the reason.

Well uh i have for years before i knew this was a

uh a common uh a common saying by

a very well -known christian financial advisor.

Uh i have for years when people have asked me so how you doing.

Uh for years i have responded better than i deserve.

And i the reason i began saying that is because number one i don't

want to lie and say oh everything's just great fantastic like most

people do.

I also on the other end of the spectrum didn't want to be a debbie downer and and say

all right.

Can you pull up a chair and let me tell you how i am.

Really.

You know i don't want to just as i was saying in the outset of the program.

I don't want to bring people down either.

I don't want to ruin their mood they might be having a great day.

I don't want to ruin a holiday a special occasion that people are celebrating by bringing up any

kind of trial or struggle that i'm going through.

But in your experience especially as a pastor what are the common

root reasons why people are depressed.

And give us also.

Obviously you're not a psychologist or a psychiatrist but i would not go to either of those

individuals for biblical advice and counsel on this issue.

But what in your knowledge and experience have been the most

frequent root causes of depression.

And also the different ways it manifests itself.

Well i could the best way i can answer that is to the nation

because in the last 20 years

but two that stand out the most and before i got saved

so one was right before i got saved and it was actually

to salvation was putting them of absolute

and to the point where i almost you know i grew up i never.

It was the only time in my life that i felt like i wanted to get drunk because i wanted the pain to go away.

That's how overwhelmingly dark it was.

And that was an ex -private was this idea

that i had grown up in church but i wasn't saved.

And i was doubting at that moment doubting the existence of god doubting

the existence of eternity other than just nothingness.

And and it really this drove me to a to an

anxiety that was just this completely gut

-wrenching and that that season and like i said that was

i can only say god was help because he was showing me just how

just how desperate i am without him.

Because if if there is no god then all of this is meaningless and all of this is just

you know we're just started of meat and we're and there's no

purpose and there's no reason and there's no rhyme and and that was really what got

me away when i

because it led me to the end of myself and

say please

tell me why you trust in the lord and give me give me hope.

And and it really was through that that that god helped me in that

first come away uh and and to do so by going

to the word not not by going but going to the word and

going to christ and finding in him

now that was the first time the second time that i and i said it's been more than that.

But two times that i remember specifically was about 10 years ago

you know 10 years.

At that point and that time

now i'm a person who is a christian who has

and yet i feel this season coming on the

same

for

me.

It always comes into the

word the more i am the

further i am away.

And i know that there is a term and as i said before i much

uh infinitely prefer seeking advice and counsel from seasoned

pastors over these issues than those who are either labeled

psychologists or psychiatrists.

But having said that i'm not completely opposed in all in all

instances and in all areas to seeking the help of those individuals.

But from what i understand the phrase clinical depression usually means

that somebody is depressed for no logical reason.

You know if you're speaking to a widow there's a logical reason if you're speaking to a widower there's a

logical reason.

If you're speaking to people have lost children there's a logical reason if there's you're speaking to unemployed people

people who are going through a divorce.

You could go on and on and on with things like that.

But have you encountered people that tell you i'm depressed all the time or frequently

and i don't even know why.

Yes and i want to i want to agree with me and that that would

be totally fine.

I do believe that there is people can be depressed

because i do think that that's a thing.

But i know that i wanted myself

to seek a chemical solution because i was always afraid i had a i

had a

parents forced to take chemicals to first take medicine.

For every time he took the medicine he was never himself he it

was almost like he was stealing sounds.

Maybe i'm over overstating the case and perhaps want to

try to solve this with medicine but i am not saying that that.

That's always the case.

There are people who i do think have chemical issues but it's but the issue is how do you get that

how do you get that analyzed.

Because often it's not with a blood test or something often it's with a cognitive test or something else

and that's the scary part is if somebody tells you you need medicine and you take it and it and it and it affects your

personality and and and drives you and where you're not yourself

that's right.

So come to me and i say that i did

dig a little deeper and and see if that's actually the case or kind of

guilt or shame or anxiety and that

is fear.

People have a fear that they don't realize that is manifesting in this depression.

So that's i try to dig down before i say okay we need to we need to look at this from a medical

medical position and again i'm not doubting medicine.

I'm just saying i think we have to be careful.

Now there is an issue that is also an issue of debate amongst even reform people

and christians in general.

There is a debate as to how to approach the situation you have

already mentioned it in regard to anxiety.

But the issue of sin being a root cause of depression now obviously

we are all sinners before regeneration were totally

depraved.

And after regeneration we have a new we are new

creations.

Uh we have the holy spirit within us but we are still plagued with the reality

that we are in this body of flesh.

And we still are sinners and always will be until the day we depart from this earth and

death.

Or if christ were to return before that.

But how much and how

quickly should a person who approaches you about depression should the

sin problem be introduced into the conversation.

And of course maybe this doesn't even involve cookie cutter ways of approaching it

but obviously sin is a part of this.

I think that from what i have heard there are some i gotta be careful here.

But there are some involved in euthetic counseling who will

really almost on the brink of interrogation try to get somebody to confess

to an unconfessed sin because they are certain that's the reason the person is depressed.

And then the person winds up leaving the church.

They don't want to be accused of something falsely or what have you.

And then you might have people who are on the opposite end of the spectrum.

Somebody like joel osteen would never tell a person that uh there's that sin is the

root of anything involved in a change of mood or behavior.

So why don't you give us your own pastoral advice about that.

Well you mentioned euthetical counseling and just just for those who are listening.

Who may not know.

What that is that.

That is counseling and they've actually the the

euthetical counseling is now acbc which is the assistant.

Yes and i've had some of those folks on the show and i have a very high regard for them.

And to the ideology i'm just saying that there are some.

In that yeah absolutely.

And i we have a lady in our church who is um who is a new medical counselor.

Or we do as well we you know we

when we're talking about the subject.

But there are times

they they don't know what the reason to an interrogation

to find the reason may not be the best answer.

Uh as you said it may cause them to push further away.

Um rather than that i think the the approach that i would prefer to take is rather to point

them to christ rather than try to investigate and investigate their sin.

Because at some point whether it's a sin or not it's going to come down to

are we or are we not resting in christ.

Are we having our.

I had a lady who who i loved dearly

who was who was struggling and

we met and we met for years well every year.

So i guess for a year every time we met i was constantly helping

trying to help her to find her rest in the lord.

Because and she could

very easily define but it wasn't a it wasn't a fear that

was a founded fear it was an unfounded fear.

And that was what i kept trying to help her understand was was finding.

The answer is not you've identified the problem.

Now let's look at the solution.

And so even if a person doesn't know what's bringing it on the solution is always going to be trying to find the rest in christ.

We have a listener named ted from moundville alabama and he

says i i think that we stole his thunder a little bit but he

says i must confess to waiting to pounce on your guest as i fully expected to hear

the all depression is rooted in personal sin position from which to my

pleasant surprise he quickly distanced himself.

Yet if i'm not mistaken is this not the philosophy undergirding

much of jay adams tradition of biblical counseling as well as the new thetic school.

Perhaps your guest might correct me if i'm wrong.

If i'm not wrong.

What is his attitude towards those counseling traditions and those who practice them.

Well uh i i can say this

so my only

answer and right now i would not agree that it's all

rooted in unconfessed sin.

I would i would say that there there there can be other contributing factors that's

often not really

anxiety manifesting in fear manifesting in depression.

And you might say well anxiety is the sin.

Well is it is anxiety a sin.

Or is anxiety rooted in a in a fear of something that you need to trust the lord in and and so

it's pushing you to trust the lord more.

So there's there's there's there's a lot to it.

I wouldn't automatically just give a blanket answer and say well there's a there's an unconfessed sin here that we have to that we have to

dig down deep to find.

Um yeah like i said i i i do i do apologize to the listener for not being more

um uh well read in in those areas.

But but as far as uh where i stand right now that's where i would.

That's where i would be.

And just like not every pastor who professes a certain

school of theology or has a certain confession of faith

is not an identical cookie cutter of everyone who identifies

himself with that school of theology and confession of faith.

So you're going to have a variety of people who are involved

uh in euthetic counseling who identify themselves that way who

may have somewhat different understandings interpretations and approaches to that.

I mean i even know a man who is a vehement anti -calvinist who calls himself a

euthetic counselor and claims to love jay adams.

And i had to remind him on another occasions don't you know that jay adams was a thoroughgoing reformed christian and

presbyterian.

But uh so not everybody is alike just because they may use the same identifying labels.

Uh what do you.

Well what should our listeners perhaps even look for.

Not that they should be looking for something that doesn't exist or playing private detective or something

with the ones they love.

But perhaps a better way of phrasing it is what might be evidences and signs

that somebody that we know and love is struggling with depression even though they never tell us

that.

And even if they may publicly uh have as the british call it a

stiff upper lip.

And uh you know they may put on the classic evangelical

smile.

And they may tell people when they're asked how are you doing.

Wonderful how are you.

Uh.

But what might be making itself evident in the life of somebody in the personality of somebody

that shows they may have depression.

Which would be a way to tenderly compassionately and privately approach them on.

It it's funny that you ask that because this is one of the things that

i i when

i heard that i was standing

in a walmart i was on a i was on a trip with my family

we had rented a cabin.

That was a and the reason why i bring up robin williams death is

because robin williams even though he wasn't a christian he is a textbook example of someone who

no one would have thought was depressed.

Because he was always the life the happy the joy his face.

And that's why i tell people the face of depression is not always the frowny face of the of the of the crying clown.

The face of depression is the is the mask that people wear that you don't know

it and downhanging from their rapture.

And that's the scary part is people who really through my times of depression.

The only person who knew it was my wife.

And that's because she would find me crying in our bedroom and no one else knew it.

Um and i mean even right now getting a little emotional about it because we we

feel like we have to make.

You mentioned the smiling shiny plastic

people.

It's a song uh years ago was a contemporary christian song and it talks about shining shiny plastic

people.

You know putting on a show

because people who are really good people who it's the people who walk around and say oh i'm

depressed.

I'm depressed a lot of times.

They're just looking for attention.

The people who always oh i'm going to hurt myself blah blah blah.

And the people who people you never knew there

was a problem because they become so.

You don't mean to say there's no one

person right now.

You need to reach out to

someone and be willing to say say.

I believe help.

My uncle is when that man came to

jesus with his sixth son and jesus said you know.

Well you know i

believe having people in your life to help you in your seasons of

struggle.

Having people in your life to help you in your seasons of doubt are so.

And it's hard.

It's hard to know.

Chris is usually the.

Most depressed and we're going to our final break of the show today.

It's going to be more brief than the other ones but if you have a question for pastor keith foskey on depression i'm urging you to send it

immediately because we're rapidly running out of time.

Go to chris arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris arnzen at gmail .com.

Give us your first name at least your city and state and country of residence and please only be anonymous if your

question involves a personal and private matter.

Don't go away we'll be right back.

Keith foskey.

Hi this.

Is john sampson pastor of king's church in peoria arizona.

Taking a moment of your day to talk about chris arnzen and the iron sharpens iron podcast.

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Pastor keith foskey uh we were discussing right before the break how people

often disguise their depression and one of my questions was

in your experience as a pastor how is this sometimes manifest where you can

sense that this may be the case with someone.

Even though if they never tell you like for instance loss of appetite weighing weight

gain or loss uh isolating themselves not coming to worship services it could be

a number of different things and nobody is an identical replica of another human being.

But what have you experienced and witnessed.

Yeah and i think all those things are true.

I think uh right away

they're going to

really invest in them and

you need to thank the lord for what their job is is to care for the

body and to care for souls.

Um but yeah i mean if you look around and you start recognizing people are less frequent in the body or they are less

frequent in the fellow

desire to have certainly one of

them is that they are in a season of depression for.

Sure.

And uh i know that we as christians whenever we are

seeking to bless anyone uh we should be using the scriptures

and i'd like you to perhaps highlight some of those scriptures that you would use for a depressed person.

But i think that we also i'm sure you would agree.

You have to be very careful not to just hurl placards at people uh

with a big smile on our face quoting scripture as if we're lecturing and rebuking someone.

And sometimes i know it actually should require silence and listening and just

perhaps hugging a person when that's an appropriate thing i have to.

We have to be very careful about hugging somebody of the opposite gender obviously but you know that

kind of thing.

And tell us how you approach this.

Well it's interesting because last year i was a speaker at a conference

and ministering

specifically uh that subject moments 828 that the

bible says god causes all things to work together for the good of those who who love him and are called according to his purpose.

I said this particular passage can be a sledge really going

through a loss or brokenness or depression.

I said so please wield this.

Do not just walk into the room of a person who just lost their child and

say hey you know god causes all things to work together for good.

You might as well just hit him in the face with a tack hammer because that that's what it's going to feel like.

And even though it's true even though the truth of scripture is is is comforting.

Take care with how we.

It's my go -to passage.

Uh pastor dean olive preached a wonderful sermon on on psalm 46.

And it helps me to this day.

Um and and so those are that i would that i would point

people to but at the same time again i would do so in such a way.

That is not that that's not intended to be

hey you know this

but rather as a gentle reminder that uh that god is sovereign.

And there there there is nothing that can touch us if we be in his hand save he

and whatever he ordained

ultimately for his glory and our good.

And so uh coming to terms with that is difficult sometimes but but it's nevertheless true

having.

Battled depression myself uh nearly all my adult life uh

and i'm not saying i'm in a constant state of depression but uh i have frequently done

my bouts with this.

The times that i have been most blessed and alleviated at least temporarily

from the smothering emotion that depression can create.

Where you sometimes can't even breathe correctly physically is when a brother or sister in christ

says you know let's let's take a drive and let me treat you to a

meal.

And they're not sitting there as an expert counselor and they're not heaping

what they think is a on you.

They're treating you with love kindness and compassion and just pouring love

over you.

Isn't that something we very strongly.

Need to remember absolutely.

And who

says nothing.

And.

And he's talking about it from a

but talking to uh people about.

How do you counsel somebody in the midst of loss or depression.

Sometimes the best thing to say is nothing.

And job's friends should have remembered that or knew that.

Exactly exactly.

So um you know what i should have said was nothing is sometimes yeah i've walked in the room i've been in the room several times when

people have died and i've seen people try to put words

in in.

In that moment there are no words when you see the person solely the body when you see that body

take its last breath and that person's you know becomes um you know steps

into eternity.

There are no words and and and.

When people try to fill that silence with words the words are often the worst and and and.

Least meaningful.

Well we are out of time and uh this is a very deep subject that we only had less than an

hour to cover.

And uh if anybody wants to get a hold of you because they'd like to talk to you about their own

depression or the depression of a loved one how do they get a hold of you.

Well they're.

Welcome to uh email me.

My email address is mkfoskey at yahoo .com.

And uh if we begin a conversation that way perhaps we would be able to talk over the phone but i think that's the best way for an

introduction is be through an email.

And uh the website for the church is sgfcjax .org sg for sovereign

grace fc for family church jax the abbreviation for jacksonville florida

dot org sgfcjax .org.

Thank you so much pastor keith foskey for being an excellent guest today.

I look forward to your return to the program.

Yes sir thank you chris and i want.

Everybody to always remember for the rest of your lives that jesus christ is a far greater savior

than you are a sinner.