A Mega Dividing Line on Lots of Topics!

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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00:35

Well greetings welcome to the dividing line you really can't see those those the batteries

00:40

I need to I need a new battery He's still doing all right, but I need to I need to get in there and change the battery on my

00:49

My triple I don't think real troubles needed batteries at least according to the because you know this one doesn't but it doesn't really

00:57

Do anything, but anyway you can see the troubles are still sitting on top of the board cube They have not yet been assimilated neither has the straw man.

01:05

Who's What would he look like as a Borg is really the question I'm not sure Don't think they ever thought about that particular storyline lots to get to today on the program got a bunch of books laid out here and stuff and You know people have complained that it's been a while since we had story time with Uncle Jimmy But the problem was the story time with Uncle Jimmy was heresy

01:33

I was reading Gnostic Gospels, which So I'm not sure if we should call that this because this isn't heresy.

01:40

This is this is good stuff People in channel are confused because they were talking about Jory Micah and Then they started talking about tribbles and some people got confused as to whether Jory Micah is a tribble or something along those lines

01:58

We could make some connections there, but it might be It might not be might not be mmm that good of an idea anyway, um,

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I Just decided we start off today with with reading something worthwhile that You know, you know, it's weird.

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I just realized I remember exactly where I was sitting The first time

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I read these words For some reason my daughter thinks she needs to take over the program today

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Either that or be a guest be a guest Well, if you ever want the B team, you know, she's evidently wants to be on on the program

02:43

Honey, you have your own And and everybody everybody who listens this program knows you have your own

02:51

It just doesn't last as long. I mean a three -hour Sheologians episode

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I Was gonna say it would be epic, but I'm not sure that's the right term Because I don't

03:02

I just don't think the format would work real well for three hours like we did last time This isn't gonna be three hours either.

03:09

But anyway Obviously extremely easily distracted today between Twitter and the channel and stuff, but I need to I need to get better at this.

03:22

I remember exactly where I was The first time and I'm pretty certain it was this

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Yeah, I was this it was this book itself, even though I've what I did is years and years ago.

03:35

I've told you before No, I guess in the other room

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Yeah, it's in the other I have an uber super duper edition of the

03:53

Institute's and I mean hard bound leather Big big thing, but I knew this

04:03

I knew this fellow who is a book Book binder and So I had him take the two volumes of Calvin's Institute's and put them into one

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Volume and he did a really good job on it But I remember exactly where I was when

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I first read these words No longer exists the building was torn down a long long time ago over off of 16th

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Street in Camelback But I remember what my office looked like which direction

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I was facing really strange how I Can open up a browser window today and three seconds later.

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I have no idea why I opened it But I can remember stuff like this. But anyway Read a little something for you here

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That's certainly was very useful for me. And maybe it'll be useful for for you.

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Oh see, there's people already on the On Twitter going link to your daughter's podcast question mark question mark question when you're making her point for her now

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She said you came on my show and it was super cute. Let's cute the DL. Hmm Hmm.

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Hmm Anyway, this is right at the beginning of the

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Institutes of the Christian religion, which the initial Version of which was written when

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Calvin was less than 30 years of age Nearly all the wisdom we possess that is to say true and sound wisdom consists of two parts knowledge of God and of ourselves

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But while joined by many bonds which one precedes and bring brings forth The other is not easy to discern in the first place

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No one can look upon himself without immediately turning his thoughts to the contemplation of God in whom he lives and moves

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For quite clearly the mighty gifts with which we are endowed are hardly from ourselves Indeed, our very being is nothing but subsistence in the one

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God Then by these benefits shed like dew from heaven upon us

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We are led as by rivulets to the spring itself Indeed our very poverty better discloses the infinitude of benefits reposing in God The miserable ruin into which the rebellion of the first man cast us especially compels us to look upward

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Thus not only will we in fasting and hungering seek thence what we lack but in being aroused by fear

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We shall learn humility For as a veritable world of miseries is to be found in mankind and we are thereby

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Despoiled of divine raiment our shameful nakedness exposes a teeming horde of infamies

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Each of us must then be so stung by the consciousness of his own unhappiness is to attain at least some knowledge of God Thus from the feeling of our own ignorance vanity poverty infirmity and what is more depravity and corruption we recognize that the true light of wisdom sound virtue full abundance of good of every good and Purity of righteousness rest in the

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Lord alone To this extent we are prompted by our own ills to contemplate the good things of God and we cannot seriously aspire to him before We begin to become displeased with ourselves

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For what man in all the world would not gladly remain as he is what man does not remain as he is

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So long as he does not know himself That is while content with his own gifts and either ignorant or unmindful of his own misery

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Accordingly the knowledge of ourselves not only arouses us to see God but also as it were leads us by the hand to find him

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Again, it is certain that man never achieves a clear knowledge of himself Unless he has first looked upon God's face and then descends from contemplating him to scrutinize himself

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If we always seem to ourselves righteous and upright and wise and holy this pride is innate in all of us

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Unless by clear proofs we stand convinced of our own unrighteousness foulness folly and impurity

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Moreover, we are not thus convinced if we look merely to ourselves And not also to the

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Lord who is the sole standard by which this judgment must be measured For because all of us are inclined by nature to hypocrisy a kind of empty image of righteousness in place of righteousness itself

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Abundantly satisfies us and because nothing appears within or around us that has not been contaminated by great immorality

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What is a little less vile pleases the thing most pure So long as we can find our minds within the limits of human corruption

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Just so an eye and I remember remember reading this over and over again and thinking about it

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Just so an eye to which nothing is shown But black objects judges something dirty white or even rather darkly modeled to be whiteness itself

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Indeed, we can discern still more clearly from the bodily senses how much we are deluded in estimating the powers of the soul

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For if in broad daylight, we are to look down upon the ground or survey whatever meets our view round about We seem to ourselves endowed with the strongest and keenest sight yet when we look up to the sun and gaze straight at it

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That power of sight which was particularly strong on earth is at once blunted and confused by a great brilliance

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And thus we are compelled to admit that our keenness and looking upon things earthly is sheer dullness when it comes to the sun

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So it happens in estimating our spiritual goods As long as we do not look beyond the earth being quite content with our own righteousness wisdom and virtue

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We flatter ourselves most sweetly and fancy ourselves all but demigods Suppose we but once begin to raise our thoughts to God And to ponder his nature and how completely perfect are his righteousness wisdom and power the straight edge to which we must be shaped

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Then what masquerading earlier his righteousness was pleasing in us will soon grow filthy in its consummate wickedness

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What wonderfully impressed us under the name of wisdom will stink in its very foolishness

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What wore the face of power will prove itself the most miserable weakness That is what in us seems perfection itself corresponds ill to the purity of God I Mentioned these words first of all obviously to highly recommend

10:20

Great literature and one of the greatest pieces of christian literature, uh ever written

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Uh, obviously is the institutes the christian religion by john calvin This is the 1559 edition the final latin edition.

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There was one. I believe one french edition after 1559. He died in 1564 But it was first written.

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Um, again before he was even 30 years of age. It was much smaller at that time It was he expanded it a number of times during During his ministry, but what is truly?

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um What what has always amazed me as an author myself is how relevant the institutes remains

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Many many hundreds years after it was it was originally written um

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I've used the description that the ink still smudges on the institutes

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And that's a kind of writing that i'm not capable of doing um Most of us who write books are so ensconced in the context in which we are living and ministering that Writing material that will be relevant 100 years after we're dead 200 years after we're dead will still breathe with life 500 years after we're dead

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There are only a few people that can do that. There are only a few people can do that um so When I read these words, it doesn't matter what culture you're in.

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It really doesn't matter what language you speak These words are just as relevant just as meaningful

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Uh to us today as when they were written and Of course one of the things

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I I deeply appreciate about john calvin the man Is that for all of the theological writing you did?

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Uh, what takes up the most shelf space? Um for those of you who've only grown up in the lagos, uh era

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Uh shelf space is how many is where we have paper books and they they have to put on shelves and um,

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I don't know how many feet of shelves I have in my in my office, but Uh a few these are shelves.

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See and these are these are books um the vast majority of the

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Material that takes up shelf space from john calvin in my library are his biblical commentary commentaries, which

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I mean the man preached Most of us work hard to to do a sunday morning sunday night wednesday night each each week

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Uh, he preached every day Uh for years on end with a 27 year headache um and When you

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Recognize that The writings that he did on theology are absolutely immersed

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In biblical exegesis and still some of the best biblical exegesis that you'll get

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I mean a lot of times today we look at the exegesis of centuries ago and You sort of go well, you know, we've sort of worked through this issue a little bit better Now we have more information about this in the background

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Uh still calvin's commentaries remain incredibly incredibly useful very very useful to us to this day that No one's going to be saying this about me 500 years from now so you you look at someone like this and you you look at them in their context and What little they had resource wise in comparison what we have today and yet what they produced um

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You know, you can You can criticize him for for all of his failings, but uh,

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I just wonder how many of us um Would Get anywhere near producing the quality and the timelessness of the materials that um

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That calvin produced. I just don't I don't think there would be All that many that would be able to do so and so I highly recommend to you the institutes the christian religion um

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Do they sometimes get? A little deep. Yeah I remember back in the late 80s

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We actually had a a study series at the old offices, uh in the institutes

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Was it um It must have been before I was riding a bike. Obviously if it was a saturday morning, so uh

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When we got into the trinity section, it gets it gets pretty deep, uh, there's no question about it but uh trivia question for all of you, uh calvinists out there, uh trivia question and that is um

15:29

What is the longest? uh section in the institutes the longest section in the institutes now

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Uh, let's say the longest section in the 1559 the standard version that is used today many people would assume that You know, the first subject that calvin addresses uh was uh something like Predestination election reprobation stuff like that.

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No Uh, even though he did move material around Uh rearranging it at points in time um

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During the editing process and the various versions that came out In that final version where he had things where he wanted them to be the section on predestination election

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Comes after the longest section of the institutes, which of course is on prayer

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Uh prayer is the longest section on prayer is the longest portion of the institutes vast majority of the folks um

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That I know of that are critics of john calvin

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Have never have either one one or two things. I they've never even read the institutes

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Or when they did they did so um In such a

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Prejudice fashion You know, there there are a lot of scholars Who detest john calvin?

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And yet they have to admit the absolute genius that was Demonstrated in his writings.

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There are a lot of people that absolutely detest jonathan edwards and yet an examination of his of his writings again demonstrates an intellect of of incomparable accomplishment and discipline and depth um

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You know, I think one of the unsung heroes again, he has his critics, but certainly someone else

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I would highly recommend to you um Is one of the great princeton reformers benjamin breckenridge warfield bb warfield

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His materials especially on both on canon and on the trinity Uh deeply influenced me especially in my seminary, uh years as well and so, uh

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We we I i'll put it this way. I waste so much time.

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So people say you You're listening to books while riding bikes. Yeah, I I know I know but still um when

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I think of You know what I have to invest my time in um

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It's such a waste in comparison to some of the incredibly deep material that is available uh to us today and You know before you before you ever switch on that television um

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Ask yourself the question. What would you what would you get? more out of um, and the only answer

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I think that you can give when you consider what's available to us and things like the institutes and and uh

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The reformation and the puritans and all that kind of stuff um You're going to get a whole lot more out of investing that time than almost anything that's on that's on television anymore, uh, when

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I think of this the stuff that's going on out there, it's It's pretty amazing. So Just a couple sections from the beginning of the institutes.

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There's lots and lots of others. In fact If you give me just a second I was I was looking at This seemed rather relevant in light of a topic that we're going to be going to uh at the end of the program um just quotations here this is from uh

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I have elsewhere explained how scripture reconciles the two notions that all are called repentance and faith by outward preaching

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Yet that the spirit of repentance and faith is not given to all And i'm skipping around hence it is clear the doctrine of salvation which is said to be reserved solely and individually

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For the sons the church is falsely debased when presented as effectually profitable to all

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Let this suffice the present although the voice the gospel addresses all in general yet the gift of faith

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Is rare isaiah sets forth the cause that the arm of the lord has not been revealed to all If he had said that the gospel is maliciously and wickedly despised because many stubbornly refuse to hear it

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Perhaps this aspect of your universal calling would have force But it is not the prophet's intention to extenuate men's guilt

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When he teaches that the source of the blindness is that the lord does not deign to reveal his arm to them He only warns that because faith is a special gift.

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The ears are beaten upon in vain with outward teaching Now I should like to know from these doctors whether preaching alone or faith makes god's sons surely

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When it is said in the first chapter of john all who believe in the only begotten son of god Also become sons of god no confused mass is placed there

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But a special rank is given to believers who were born not of blood nor the will of the flesh nor the will of man but of God and then later on also in book three, by the way, this is chapter 24

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The supreme judge then makes way for his predestination when he leaves in blindness those whom he has once condemned and deprived of participation in his light

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Of the former effect there are daily proofs as well as many proofs in scripture If the same sermon is preached that I just found this relevant to the last

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Conversation we had two days ago um If the same sermon is preached say to a hundred people 20 receive it with ready obedience of faith while the rest hold it valueless or laugh or hiss or loathe it

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If anyone should reply that this diversity rises out of their malice and perverseness I still will not be satisfied because the nature of the former would be occupied with the same malice if god did not correct it by his goodness

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Therefore we shall always be confused unless paul's question comes to mind who distinguishes you first corinthians 4 7

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By this he means that some excel others not by their own virtue but by god's grace alone

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A significantly more compelling response to that question Then was offered by the individual that we were reviewing at that time so institutes the christian religion

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Something I would highly recommend to you all for its reading Shifting gears

22:35

Over and over again we Encounter The News story about another state another judge normally um deciding

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That Birth certificates should no longer list father and mother uh progenitor a progenitor

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And then last week I forget which state it was Uh, but I can pretty much guess it was either california oregon washington massachusetts or new york um

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The ruling came down, uh that you can

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You you must now list same sex couples on birth certificates

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If they are involved somehow with this mess uh, that is the result of the

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Immoral revolution the immoral sexual revolution of the past 60 years um the beautiful words father and mother

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With all they represent under direct assault and it made me think and I I grabbed

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I I looked I I know it's in there. I I scanned my library

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Just didn't have time to to scan it closely enough, but I even know what the book looks like I can see it's it's uh,

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The spine of it And it's the same one. I read Junior senior year in high school.

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I forget which one it was so maybe it's just so faded I can't see it anymore so old but it made me think of A portion of huxley's brave new world

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And you've heard me mention a number of times that we are living in a day where prophetic

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Uh predictions um Made either in 1984 or in brave new world

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Are being fulfilled in sort of a mixed fashion and Certainly this one is one that you see primarily in brave new world um

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Right in the it's in the second chapter. So right toward the beginning of brave new world um

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There are if you haven't read brave new world Hard to give you the background, but it's hundreds of years in the future

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And mankind is now um Produced Mass -produced and genetically controlled and as we see

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CRISPR technology being used It's it's like huxley had a crystal ball

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Uh, because this is exactly what's happening and and it's going to happen unless Well Let's just hope

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I am legend doesn't turn out to be as prophetic as 1984 and brave new world did

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Because in case you're Haven't seen it. What's that? Or the walking dead. Yeah, that's pretty much same thing um in I am legend, uh, the disease that destroys the vast majority of humanity comes about through genetic manipulation and playing around with the human genome and and If you listen to the briefing as I do every day that it's on um, you know that this

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Genetic manipulation is taking place right now uh china

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Other places they're talking about doing it here where you're actually going to be Modifying the stem cell line that it can be it can be heritable.

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It can be passed on changing the human genome it is Absolutely Frightening not just because of of scary sci -fi movies

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But just because the utter arrogance of mankind and the fact that this is taking place right? At the greatest point of human hubris in history

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Where we have the least fear of god Secular humanism atheism it's

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Rampant all around us even in religion But this is now when these things are happening

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And it's frightening to think about um But this is what's going on around us and I thought back

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To this story in the brave new world where The plot line is introduced right at the beginning

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About how mankind is being produced Through the mechanism of a tour through the building one of the buildings where Embryos are being conditioned to the various levels

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Of society the alphas the betas the gammas the epsilons deltas and epsilons

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And Epsilons are the lowest they're they're semi -morons uh, they just you know run elevators and dig ditches and things like that and then

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And and this is all controlled in the development of these, uh these children uh in this totally artificial concept artificial process

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There are no fathers and mothers anymore There's no family. Everybody belongs to everyone else. There's no

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The the and and what's interesting is huxley saw what this would result in for sexual morality

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So, let me just pick up uh, the director of the hatchery is

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Taking a group of alphas. So a highest level uh through And showing them things um

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I'm not sure why you just why did you just get banned? Oh, you miss you misspelled you misspelled a word and did something bad

29:21

Ha ha ha ha I just looked over and rich just my my bot over on uh on the computer in the other room, uh just uh

29:36

Just kicked rich out and banned him Yeah, actually Spelling matters to that.

29:43

Yes, you you might want to uh, you could go unban yourself on uh on the unit over there if you wanted to but um

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Ha we won't talk about more about that on the air. Um here's um

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Here's the uh, here's the section from brave new world that I was thinking of We condition the masses to hate the country concluded the director

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But simultaneously we condition them to love all country sports at the same time We see to it that all country sports shall entail the use of elaborate apparatus

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So they consume manufactured articles as well as transport hence those electric shocks

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I see said the student and was silent lost in admiration There was a silence then clearing his throat

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Once upon a time the director began while our ford was still on earth. There was a little boy named

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Ruben Rabinovich Ruben was the child of polish -speaking parents The director interrupted himself

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You know what polish is I suppose a dead language Like french and german added another student obviously showing off his learning and Parent questioned the dhc dhc the director of the hatcheries

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There was an uneasy silence Several the boys blushed they had not yet learned to draw the significant but often very fine distinction between smut and pure science

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One at last had the courage to raise a hand human beings Used to be

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He hesitated and the blood rushed to his cheeks. Well, they used to be viviparous

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Quite right. The director nodded approvingly And when the babies were decanted born came the correction well

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Then they were parents. I mean not the babies. Of course the other ones the poor boy was overwhelmed with confusion

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In brief the director summed up the parents were the father and the mother

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The smut that was really science fell with a crash into the boy's eye avoiding silence

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Mother, he repeated loudly rubbing in the science and leaning back in his chair These he said gravely are unpleasant facts.

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I know it but then most historical facts are unpleasant

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It goes on to talk about at a later point

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Just the the revolt the revulsion At the idea of a family

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Of uniqueness Individuality And of course in this society

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Sexual morality is 180 what it was back then

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You are considered evil if you do not have relationships with many many many people on a regular basis

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That's the new sexual norm. Of course, there's no children They're they're not to they're not to be there's contraception

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And of course something called soma a drug that allows you to Always be calm and happy and satisfied with whatever lot you have in life

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Total dehumanization and if you know the story what this results in at the end uh feet moving along Back and forth along the compass.

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You you if you know the story, you know what i'm talking about I I don't know how

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I don't I don't have the ability um To see trends like certain people do

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I just don't um Schaefer saw trends And what they're going to result in long before uh

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You ever get to the fulfillment of these things and Wells Huxley these others

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Saw where these trends were going and now we see them. We we actually see these individuals in our society

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And we try to warn but it just seems especially like the next generation is just Has been conditioned to be willing to accept

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This kind of thinking and the utter destructiveness of humanity uh that results from it

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And as I listened to this section and then like I said just a little bit later um, there is a a section where um

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One of the controllers joins the group and is talking about Motherhood my baby my baby and they're just responding just going.

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Oh, oh just the idea of motherhood and And we see people today that have not gotten to that That fully to that point, but they highly denigrate the concept of motherhood

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It's a it's clearly a lesser thing Than being a successful businesswoman or something along those lines and you join this with the uh insanity

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The the humanity denying insanity of of gender rebellion um

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And it really gets to the point where You start going you start seeing this and you you recognize

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That what huxley was warning about was a complete dehumanization of the human race

35:38

Looks like he had it way too far down the road and didn't go nearly as far as Our god is in the heavens and he rules and reigns and we can

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Hope and pray that there would never be a period of time in human history anything similar to what you see in brave new world

35:57

Um, there would still be a church one way or the other if there was Um, it might be hidden out on on an island someplace.

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There'd still be a church anyway, um It just really struck me

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That we are hearing the fulfillment of these predictive voices

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And we can look at the people we can we can look in their faces and say they want this

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I'm, not sure how many of them have read the books But they want this um and it's uh, it's it's a shocking thing to consider it really

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Really is Well, there's brave new world and uh the motherhood issue that's uh going on uh next

36:44

Have a little bit of something for everybody here um a video

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Was put out We're shifting gears now if any of you

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We're tuning in for some more calvinism stuff. That's at the end of the program. So i'm just I'm reeling you along, uh to the end because I am aware of the matt walsh explosion

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And we'll talk about that a little bit in a few minutes but first um this is volume eight

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Uh, i've forgotten how many volumes there are takes up an entire row in my library

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I had a man visit me once Brilliant young man.

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He's going knowing that this young man is out there.

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Um Makes me all the more confident that ministry

37:50

To muslims is going to continue in the future And that there are going to be people who do it, right?

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They're going to do it in love They're going to do it with an eye to the glory of god Uh, they're not going to do it just to get their their theological swords bloody uh, and If I get run over by a truck uh on my bike next week that's going to continue on because uh, there are

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God's building his kingdom and like I said, I don't know how many times if you ever if you ever get It in your mind that god's dependent upon you

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Uh, you've lost it You've you've missed it and god's probably going to take you right out

38:33

I i've told the story of a man. I remember a man late 1980s man. He was he was well known

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He had a big ministry big voice and then he got it in his head that Uh, he was really vitally important and if he didn't support him

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Kingdom of god was going to come to a grinding halt. Well, almost nobody today even has a clue who the guy is

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Almost nobody has even heard of him god just simply whoosh wiped him right out of the way

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And uh, you know god has the right to do that with anybody at any time But if you want to hasten the process

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Get into your mind that somehow god's dependent upon you He ain't he can he'll he'll accomplish his purpose um

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With or without you. This is the history of al -tabari Top shelf in my muslim section.

39:31

You'll see a bunch of books like this I just want to know what what the last volume is. How many volumes are there? Could you look real quick?

39:37

It's huge The history of al -tabari is very very large and It is considered one of the most vitally important historical resources

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In islamic history, so This is this is a muslim source.

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It is considered to be a reliable sound uh source of of information concerning the events of Muhammad's life.

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There's all sorts of direct connections between What's found here?

40:15

uh And what you'll find the hadith things like things like 34 volumes.

40:22

Okay. It's it's big It's a big set. This is the uh, the sunni um um

40:29

State university of new york, uh paperback set I would imagine the hardback sets a lot more expensive um

40:39

Right at the beginning of volume eight This uh

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Al -tabari, uh al -tabari Al -tabari

40:54

This is the michael fishbein Translation right at the beginning of volume eight.

41:00

We have the uh doing a lot of reading today. We have the following story Uh, the messenger of god came to the house of zayd bin haritha

41:12

Zayd was always called Zayd bin muhammad Now let me stop for a moment and give you the background there zayd

41:22

Was a slave freed by muhammad and adopted by him And that's why he says zayd was always called zayd bin muhammad

41:32

Perhaps now and and muhammad had presided over zayd's marriage

41:40

To zayd's wife zaynab bin jash Who was muhammad's cousin?

41:48

Continuing the reading perhaps the messenger of god missed him at that moment so as to ask where is zayd

41:54

He came to his residence to look for him, but did not find him zaynab bin jash zayd's wife

42:00

Rose to meet him Because she was dressed only in a shift The messenger of god turned away from her.

42:07

She said he is not here messenger of god Come in you who are as dear to me as my father and mother

42:14

The messenger of god refused to enter zaynab had dressed in haste when she was told the messenger of god is at the door

42:21

She jumped up in haste and excited the admiration of the messenger of god So he turned away murmuring something that could scarcely be understood

42:31

However, he did say overtly glory be to god the almighty glory be to god who causes hearts to turn

42:39

When zayd came home His wife told him that the messenger of god had come to his house

42:46

Zayd said why didn't you ask him to come in? She replied. I asked him but he refused Did you hear him say anything he asked she replied as he turned away?

42:55

I heard him say glory be to god the almighty glory be to god who causes hearts to turn So zayd left and having come to the messenger of god.

43:03

He said messenger of god. I have heard that you came to my house Why didn't you go in you who are as dear to me as my father and mother?

43:10

Messenger of god perhaps zaynab has excited your admiration and so I will separate myself from her

43:18

The messenger of god said keep your wife to yourself Zayd could find no possible way to approach her after that day

43:26

He would come to the messenger of god and tell him so but the messenger of god would say to him keep your wife Zayd separated from her and left her and she became free

43:35

While the messenger of god was talking with ayesha A fainting overcame him.

43:41

This was According again, according to the sources the standard Experience of the reception of revelation by muhammad

43:52

When he was released from it, he smiled and said who will go to zaynab and tell her the good news

43:58

Saying that god has married her to me Then the messenger of god recited and when you said unto him on whom god has conferred favor

44:07

And you have conferred favor keep your wife to yourself and the entire passage

44:13

According to ayesha who said I became very uneasy Because of what we heard about her beauty and another thing the grayest and loftiest of matters

44:22

What god had done for her by giving her in marriage? I said that she would boast of it over us

44:31

According to ayesha who said salma the maid servant of the messenger of god went out to inform zaynab um according to yunus bin abd alala

44:43

Ibn wab ibn zayd who said the messenger of god was Has had married zaynab bin haritha to zaynab bin josh his paternal aunt's daughter

44:52

One day the messenger of god went out looking for zayd now There was a covering of hair cloth over the doorway, but the wind had lifted the covering so the doorways that was uncovered

45:01

Zaynab was in her chamber undressed and admiration for her entered the heart of the prophet After that happened.

45:08

She was made unattractive to the other man, which would be zayd So he came and said messenger of god.

45:13

I want to separate myself from my companion muhammad asked what is wrong Has anything on her part disquieted you? No, my god replied zayd nothing she has done has disquieted me messenger of god

45:23

Nor have I seen anything but good messenger of god said to him keep your wife to yourself and fear god That is the meaning of the word of god

45:30

And when you said unto him on whom god has conferred favor and you have conferred favor Keep your life to yourself and fear god and you did hide in your mind that which god was to bring to light

45:40

You did hide in your mind the thought that if he separates from her from himself from her I will marry her

45:45

So there's two different stories Two different versions of the same story. I'm, sorry uh recorded by al -tabri

45:53

Now these are Islamic sources. I didn't I didn't this is not some orientalist uh

46:02

Uh making up this story or or anything along those lines and the section that was um

46:11

Whoop the section that was being uh delete Cited uh in the

46:22

Quran is from ayah 33 And what is fascinating to me and again,

46:29

I discussed this. Uh In my book on this subject Here's the here's

46:38

Surah 33 ayah 37 and remember o muhammad When you said to the one on whom allah bestowed favor and you bestowed favor keep your wife and fear allah

46:48

Well, you concealed within yourself that which allah is to disclose and you feared the people While allah has more right that you fear him

46:56

So when zaid had no longer any need for her We married her to you in order that there not be upon the disbelievers any discomfort concerning the wives

47:06

Of their adopted sons when they no longer have need of them And ever is the command of allah accomplished okay so There's your background

47:19

Uh surah 33 Uh Not only there but elsewhere likewise contains the necessary command

47:31

That basically ended the Practice of adoption in islam now, you can still adopt a child, but that child is not considered your child.

47:42

You're just a protector um Jewish adoption roman adoption christian adoption

47:50

Insisted And adoption amongst the arabs up until this time

47:57

Insisted that when you adopted a child that child was the equal of Any of your natural children in in name and inheritance and standing the family.

48:08

It's a beautiful thing um adoption is used in the new testament as A picture as it's it's one of the things that we um

48:21

We utilize as a beautiful sign of our relationship to god and What happened as a result of this incident you see amongst the arabs having having that your

48:41

Son's Wife if there was a divorce Was haram to you you could not marry her it was considered incest

48:51

So zainab so the marriage zainab in arab tradition was incestuous it was wrong and That's why you have

49:04

Divine revelation even aisha is is quoted as being worried about Her status as muhammad's favorite wife

49:15

Because of the Fact that divine revelation had to be given to Provide the foundation for muhammad and zainab to be married

49:30

What brought this up? is I recently addressed this

49:37

In the context of being falsely accused of having become a Apologist for muhammad and excusing his relationship with aisha on the basis of the fact that I said

49:50

That in the witnessing situation it seems much wiser to me to approach the subject of muhammad

50:00

And his life From the perspective of something like this you have specific canonic revelation that you can look at and It also does not contain the same level of emotional

50:18

Gunpowder, I guess you might say emotional dynamite because especially for sunni muslims

50:25

Aisha is considered to be the mother of the faithful and so you know, it's like It's like talking about mary to a roman catholic that lives in mexico, you know, it's just you know, you're you're just Begging for a punch in the nose pretty fast, you know um and so certain individuals just You know out of prejudice and so on so forth misrepresented what

50:54

I was saying and that's what brought this up. Well Those comments were picked up on in a in a video

51:03

Um that was posted I believe yesterday and I want to take a look at the video And Now that you have the background you'll be able to understand better what the video is about because it's fascinating uh,

51:16

I believe Sorry, if I got this wrong, I think yaya snow put this out um, and what's interesting is it contrasts the statement that I made as soon as I got back from Uh the trip that I took where all this stuff exploded where I had the dialogue with yasser khadi

51:38

Yeah, I was memphis and and a number of other places of g3 and everything else um

51:47

And the primary corrector of my comments about zainab that is included is yasser khadi so This gives us an opportunity, uh to Listen to A muslim saying well,

52:05

I think you're you're wrong about zainab bin josh. Here's yasser khadi's Uh take on it and I just want to listen to the whole thing and then i'll respond to it because um

52:18

I hope this won't surprise yachia, but I had seen Dr. khadi's comments on this a while ago.

52:25

Don't remember how long ago it was but I had already seen Comments and it's not something that we've had the opportunity of discussing yet personally, but it would be an interesting place of discussion

52:38

Because for me You must understand i'm saying this to my muslim friends that are listening to this

52:48

I've got to ask you to try to step back from your traditions just long enough to try to hear what we're saying

52:58

Uh, please keep in mind a few things that that I i've mentioned to you before and I I hope you can hear me again

53:08

I see no evidence. Let me just address this to yaya. Okay. Um, you and I have

53:16

Crossed swords electronically many times and I would like to see that end not because either one of us compromises, but just because we try to be

53:29

A little bit more sympathetic to hearing what the other one is saying without necessarily jumping on the immediate uh most negative, uh reading possible

53:40

And I did feel like at least in this video that's sort of what you were doing So hopefully you'll take my response in the same way um you must understand that I am

53:55

I am convinced and I I haven't had too many muslims try to disabuse me of this conclusion

54:04

That the author of the quran And you know why I use the term author of the quran i'm trying to avoid pitfalls and Diversions that take us into other other areas to discuss

54:15

Possibilities of revision compilation all the rest of that stuff. Let's just leave that off to the side of the moon I am convinced that the author of the quran had no

54:26

Firsthand knowledge of the new testament now immediately if you think the author of the quran is allah

54:33

You can't believe that okay But I see no evidence of it I see no evidence in the pages of the quran

54:43

Of any kind of firsthand knowledge of what's found in the new testament

54:50

Its representations of the alalangil the people of the gospel its representations of what the new testament allegedly talks about Its its mixture of gnostic sources with christian sources in regards to the life of jesus thing.

55:03

Those are all external examples of this but the fact that There are so many times when the quran attempts to address an issue

55:15

It assumes that its christian audience knows the new testament, but it doesn't show any evidence itself of knowing for example, there's there's nothing in the quran that even even begins

55:27

To to show evidence of a knowledge of the argument of the book of hebrews for example, just nothing

55:34

Of of the real meaning of atonement of of any of that kind of stuff it's just not there If you can show me where it is and most of the time the answer

55:42

I get is well It doesn't need to be there. Well, then you're proving my point And I see

55:48

I see Again in surah five, which is another area that i'd really like to have discussion with.

55:53

Dr. Kadhi on or someone along those lines But I see in surah five that chain

56:00

In what 44 through 50 something? Where you go from moses torah to jesus injeel to muhammad quran?

56:09

And clearly the author is attempting to say the this is a chain of of authority

56:16

That god has been calling these prophets and giving these books and yet when

56:22

I look at the tanakh Or as you would call it the torah And I look at the injeel

56:30

The reality is the new testament writers Have a deep and intimate knowledge

56:37

Of the old testament quote from it constantly You come to the quran What do you have?

56:44

You have the lex talionis? Eye for an eye tooth for a tooth. You might have a quote from one of the psalms though That's disputable.

56:54

That's it. You don't you don't have any firsthand knowledge You have stories

57:01

But those stories sound very much like they're transmitted orally Not in the sense of having a knowledge of what's actually contained in the text and so What that's leading me to here in regards to zainab bin josh

57:17

Is when I read ayah 37 of surah 33

57:27

Um There is such a vast contrast

57:34

Between The view of marriage Found not only in the prophets of the old testament but explicitly in the teaching

57:47

Of Jesus and his apostles That it's

57:55

Really really hard To even give consideration to the idea

58:03

Um so when Zayd had no longer any need for her

58:12

I can't believe that that comes from god And ephesians 5 comes from god not at the same time

58:21

Uh, jesus his teaching on marriage matthew chapter 19 Can't put them together

58:30

We married her to you In order there not be upon the believers any discomfort concerning the wives of their adopted sons

58:37

When they no longer have need of them, this is just So in my opinion so far below Biblical revelation of the nature of marriage

58:50

That the two simply they can't come from the same source They can't come from the same source

58:58

There was no problem Since it was considered incest so It strikes me as special pleading

59:08

And it seems to me that that we're not being unfair if we use al -tabari as as a meaningful source

59:17

For the history of this and and there seems to be real

59:24

Consistency between al -tabari's version and what we see in the quran So there's the issue

59:34

There's the issue with that I'm glad I looked over here and saw that I didn't plug the sound with that Um, what?

59:43

Yes With that, let's take a look At the video that was put out and uh, you ready to go with it?

59:52

Here we go. Um, but the reality is

01:00:04

That I think it is a significantly less

01:00:11

Emotionally charged and yet way to your issue To address the fact that the quran shows tremendous embarrassment about zainab bin jash not ayesha

01:00:28

So in other words when you address the issue of zainab Wow allah felt it was necessary to reveal an entire portion of of a surah in the quran

01:00:42

To excuse Muhammad's marrying of the divorced wife of his adopted son and in the process

01:00:51

Destroyed the beautiful institution of adoption in islam. I think that is a

01:00:59

Weighty argument It doesn't immediately bring the emotional barriers

01:01:08

And might actually be used to cause a person to sit back and to think About the prophethood of muhammad

01:01:21

Adoption sponsoring a child is allowed. What is not allowed is to consider the child exactly the same as a biological child Well, yeah, that's the problem.

01:01:27

That's not adoption This is where we get in islam the principle that adoption is never the same as a blood relation

01:01:34

You can adopt children You can bring them into your family. You can take care of them. You can raise them, but they're never your child.

01:01:40

They're always Genetically different from you Okay, so I just stopped that right there just okay,

01:01:47

I understand that but that's not adoption That's that's like a foster relationship or whatever else it might be again the position

01:02:00

That had been held prior to this And that is represented in the torah and in jeel

01:02:08

Uh in which are light and guidance and i've never heard of muslims saying that That what those books said about adoption was wrong

01:02:18

Or even try to mount an argument for it because that's what most that's what muhammed believed up to this point in time so that's just a redefinition that is a

01:02:29

Diminishment of adoption to a much lesser thing. Yes, sir I think the word that would best describe that would be guardianship.

01:02:36

Yeah, sort of yeah. Yeah To address the fact that the quran shows tremendous embarrassment about zainab bin jash not ayesha

01:02:50

So in other words when you address the issue of zainab Wow allah felt it was necessary to Reveal an entire portion of of a surah in the quran to excuse

01:03:07

Muhammad's Muhammad's marrying of the divorced wife of his adopted son This way this guy is spinning is unacceptable the quran was revealed contemporaneous to prophet muhammad's life

01:03:18

It refers to many things going on during his life. So the quran referring to this isn't an issue before now

01:03:23

I Let me let me respond to that But if you're an orthodox sunni, you believe that this was written from eternity um

01:03:34

That has implications from from my perspective if This is a reliable source of information

01:03:43

Um, can you see why I might go wow looks a little bit convenient uh to all of a sudden get to overthrow and redefine the meaning of adoption

01:03:54

As well as it shows a very very sub biblical a view of marriage

01:04:02

I Mean these are these are the issues and why do you need entire revelation?

01:04:08

at this point, well you had to because This was considered an incestuous relationship and so all this

01:04:18

Muhammad goes into the prophetic faint And receives word from allah that he is to fear allah and not men and This has had tremendous impact societally in islamic nations

01:04:36

That's just that's just the reality um Before explaining the marriage of zainab, let's look at the bible.

01:04:43

So this polemicist can be brought to consistency According to the bible god interacts with events that go on during the lives of his prophets

01:04:50

I've picked the example of dave an example which secularized christians may find uncomfortable The intention here is to get polemicists thinking deeply deeper and more consistently.

01:04:59

Well, by the way um Don't we have very different understandings of inspiration

01:05:07

Uh, we we do believe that men spoke from god as they were carried along by the holy spirit

01:05:13

But you don't you don't believe that um, the Very deep and rich concept of revelation that we have that god utilizes the exact uh vocabulary personality of the individuals that he chooses to be

01:05:30

Uh the ones through which the scripture comes to us and of course the very fact that we have 40 different authors over 1500 years

01:05:38

Speaking three different languages. Well two related languages in one very different language Is to me one of the evidences of the inspiration of scripture it it allows all sorts of objections to be raised, but You're talking about a monolingual

01:05:54

Mono -authored work in the quran and we're talking about um

01:06:01

How you can get a collection of books written over 1500 years? Uh, and yet you have the same themes and truths woven through all of these from beginning to end that that to me

01:06:15

Is a place where the bible Is on a completely different plane completely different level than the quran

01:06:22

It makes it harder to defend but it also makes it much deeper um as well, so, um

01:06:31

Anyway, we press forward here. I'm not sure how long this uh This stays up Is it moving?

01:06:38

Yes, it's moving. I'm just looking at the little that's it two four Well, you remember at one point in the past I criticized these folks for not leaving it up long enough

01:06:47

So no one could read it So now I think they sit there and read it and and make sure that you can get all the way through it

01:06:52

So that's good that that you know Of course, you can just be second samuel 12 11 to 12

01:06:58

God uses it as a punishment for david's sin with basheba by decreeing before your very eyes

01:07:04

I will take your wives and give them to one who is close to you And he will sleep with your wives in broad daylight

01:07:10

Modes of attack. Okay. Well back up back up. Um That's uh, yasser so in second samuel chapter 12 because of david's sin

01:07:25

And and may I point out because of the degradation of Marriage that took place

01:07:33

According to jesus It was god's intention from the start

01:07:40

Um that it'd be one man and one woman There was a step down into polygamy uh

01:07:49

Seen in abraham david you see the results in solomon's life. And of course I just point out to the christians listening

01:07:56

Muslims don't believe um That any of the prophets were great sinners some believe they didn't sin at all

01:08:05

Uh what the level of sin is is sometimes varies from individual individual But for example with what happened solomon, they would never accept that that was that was true

01:08:16

Because from their perspective the personal character of the prophet is determinative of his um ability to be the channel through which divine revelation would be given

01:08:29

And of course, we don't have that concept, um That's a anachronism for us.

01:08:35

It comes about at a later at a later point in time So, uh, so david

01:08:42

Uh, we know what happens with absalom david is is punished I'm, not sure what this has to do with this situation because a

01:08:51

The muslim doesn't believe that these incidents took place in david's life as far as there being any need for punishment

01:08:59

Uh for him in regards to basheba um B historically this took place in the rebellion of absalom um, so What does this have to do with?

01:09:16

Uh divine revelation having to come down so that muhammad can be married to his cousin I I missed it.

01:09:24

Sorry. Don't don't get what the What the challenge is there but it immediately goes on to uh, some comments made by Yasser khadi, so let's uh, listen to what uh yasser had to say wives in broad daylight

01:09:38

Primary modes of attack. I wanted to conclude by giving some examples some lengthy examples.

01:09:43

We only have 10 minutes I'll try to summarize them the first example And by the way, i've given three tactics.

01:09:50

I'm not being exclusive. These are the primary three tactics also Most of the time an attack about the against the honor of our prophet.

01:09:57

Salaam is a combination of these three It's not that only one is used a story is invented bits of fabrication bits of distorted truths bits of cultural values

01:10:06

And then present it and so an example of this one example in a little bit of detail the story of zainab bint jahsh

01:10:15

And the prophet's marriage to zainab Now zainab bint jahsh was the cousin of the prophet salallahu alayhi wasalam and she was married to zaid

01:10:27

And zaid radiallahu an was the adopted son of the prophet salallahu alayhi wasalam

01:10:33

As you all know he had adopted zaid and so he was called zaid ibn muhammad

01:10:39

And just like in our culture in our culture american culture adopted children and biological children are considered the same

01:10:46

Morally i'm saying morally if you try to say no. No, there's a difference morally society will say oh you're being so mean

01:10:53

You're being so unfair cultural values once again islamically Islamically in the beginning period of islam.

01:11:00

It was the same Adopted children now to catch that, you know, here's dr. Khadi and he he rightly recognizes

01:11:07

That there was a radical change Because of surah 33 and because of zainab bint jahsh

01:11:15

Now I just go what's gonna What prompted this is it more likely that god said, you know, that's a that's a real problem

01:11:23

They're having with this adoption thing real problem that they're having Because just so many

01:11:30

Um dads want to marry the divorced wives of their adopted sons

01:11:36

That was really a problem of all the issues were they were facing the ummah at that time this is a pressing problem i'm, sorry,

01:11:45

I don't see it. I I just I I don't see it Biological children are the same

01:11:52

And so when the prophet susan adopted Zaid his name became zaid ibn muhammad

01:11:58

And the wife of zaid ie zainab Became the daughter -in -law of the prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam

01:12:06

And as you all know daughter -in -laws are permanent mahram Even if the marriage breaks between the son and the wife the father -in -law always remains a mahram

01:12:15

This is a strange thing subhanallah The husband becomes a non -mahram after the divorce the husband becomes a non -mahram because after the divorce is over But the father -in -law remains a mahram forever so In this case just in case you're wondering mahram um in in semitic languages

01:12:33

Uh If you hear you hear mahram you hear haram forbidden

01:12:40

And almost always when they m sound is the beginning you've turned it into a substitle participle so uh shirk is

01:12:49

The sin of association a mushrik Is a person who commits that mushrikun are plural the plural the the idolaters and so what he's talking about there are is the the fact that Divorce changes some of these relationships, but not others the father -in -law stays a mahram.

01:13:07

Uh was what he was saying there sometimes Dr. Qadi speaks very very quickly When I listened to his series light and guidance,

01:13:14

I didn't I don't think I listened to that one at high speed because it would have been No, it was a little bit a little bit too fast when

01:13:23

Zay when zayed and zaynab were married The prophetess and eventually ended up marrying zaynab.

01:13:29

What is the orientalist version? The orientalists all agree There is pretty much unanimous consensus amongst them that the version of events goes as follows

01:13:40

The prophet allegedly fell in love with zaynab uh, he went to visit her in her house

01:13:49

And he Opened it or she opened the door and she was wearing clothes that typically she would wear when she's sleeping

01:13:56

In other words not fully dressed up and that the prophet saw her beauty and was Impressed by that and fell in love with her and when zayn heard about this then he divorced his wife so that uh,

01:14:07

The prophet could marry uh could marry her and allah azza wa jal conveniently revealed according to them

01:14:12

Verses that talk about Adopted children are not real children and you can marry their wives

01:14:18

This is the non -muslim version of events that the prophet saw zaynab dressed in a dress inappropriately

01:14:25

Fell in love with her at first sight and wanted to marry her. So he concocted these verses to say that Adopted children are not biological children the problem with this sequence of events

01:14:38

Is that it is presented as? Undisputed fact From within the islamic tradition.

01:14:45

It's as if this is the only version of events Yet the fact of the matter is that this version is only one version of the story

01:14:53

And let us call this for lack of a better term the love story version There are other versions that exist in classical and medieval texts which are generally considered more acceptable and more authentic in fact

01:15:08

Sahih al -bukhari Tafsir ibn kathir Tafsir or the seerah ibn ishaq all of the standard references present a very different picture

01:15:19

Before we get into who's right and wrong Don't you think it's hypocritical for a non -muslim to come and pounce on the most

01:15:28

Sensationalist story and ignore all the other versions and then not even tell you the other versions exist

01:15:33

Not even question the fact that there are other versions of the story let me give now

01:15:38

I I just My I would have to respond by saying well

01:15:45

Why did al -tabri do that? I I mean, I don't think it requires.

01:15:52

Um Prejudice or something the sources that al -tabri relied upon communicated to him in multiple from multiple streams

01:16:02

That story which is consistent And it's not a matter of pouncing upon something this is

01:16:08

This is a vitally important subject that's raised in the text of the quran itself And it's the quran that gives the answer the statement that hey

01:16:19

This is this is so there wouldn't be trouble concerning this issue when it's really hard for most of us to go

01:16:24

There wasn't any trouble Where's the evidence that there was trouble? Where's the evidence that the the ummah was just torn apart because all these fathers wanted to marry the divorced daughters of their of their adopted sons uh

01:16:36

I That raises some serious serious questions For example

01:16:43

The earliest tafseer is written tafseer of abd al -razaq in 211 tafseer of ibn abhi hatim in 327

01:16:48

Uh, that is the tafseer of ibn kathir the earliest seerah books written seerah of ibn ishaq

01:16:54

The earliest hadith books written the hadith of the sahih of imam bukhari All of these books give a radically different story.

01:17:01

What is the story there? The story there is that the prophet sallallahu alayhi wasallam

01:17:08

Was informed by allah that eventually zainab would be his wife And zaid and zainab began having arguments and disputes.

01:17:16

Okay. Now, let me just stop right there and again to yaya Okay, let's let's say

01:17:25

That all of that stuff is is true, okay that that uh ibn kathir and uh

01:17:34

Bukhari Don't give the back the background information that al -tabri does.

01:17:40

Okay Do you see see why we still have a major problem here? Because what's being said now is muhammad was given a

01:17:49

Almost prophetic knowledge that he would be married to the wife of his son his adopted son um the all of the issues regarding the nature of marriage all the issues of what the prophets of israel said all the issues of what jesus said about marriage are still just as much a part of this as they were before whether Muhammad just simply fell for her or didn't fall for her that element of it the discontinuity that exists between torah injeel and quran uh

01:18:31

Remains one way or the other uh in in this situation Not want to remain married to zainab

01:18:39

So zaid came to the prophet wanting a divorce And the prophet felt awkward because he knew that when that divorce takes place and the idda is over Zainab would become his wife and he himself did not like the cultural taboo of marrying a supposed daughter -in -law

01:18:56

So he told zaid Fear allah and don't divorce her. He told zaid not to divorce her and he feared

01:19:04

Men's criticism of this cultural taboo. Not that he had love of zainab rather He was embarrassed at marrying a supposed daughter -in -law, so he wanted to stall it zaid wanted a divorce

01:19:16

This is the version of sahih bukhari and the prophet says no you stay with her. Don't divorce her

01:19:22

And allah azza wa jaz then revealed verses in surah ahzab. Why were you scared of the people? The prophets this is a verse in the quran.

01:19:29

Why were you scared of the people? It is more befitting that you are scared of allah

01:19:35

Shouldn't be embarrassed at the people's statements There is no love story in sahih bukhari and ibn kathir and all of these books

01:19:42

The question arises where does this love story exist response again? We're getting a little bit academic here, but it exists in A tafsir called tafsir muqatid ibn sulayman and muqatid ibn sulayman by unanimous consensus

01:19:57

Is not a scholar. He's not a historian. He is a storyteller

01:20:03

He is a storyteller. In other words, he's a tabloid paper. He's not the new york times

01:20:08

Literally, he's a tabloid paper So the orientalist imagine and I I said this at an academic conference when

01:20:14

I was defending the story, uh in a certain context I said imagine walking into a bookstore walking into a supermarket and ignoring the new york times

01:20:24

Ignoring, you know the washington post ignoring every single reputable the times magazine newsweek

01:20:30

And getting your news from the daily inquirer, for example This is the equivalent of what these people are doing

01:20:37

They ignore every single authentic legitimate book And they go to the most obscure references.

01:20:44

How many of you have even heard of tafsir muqatid ibn sulayman? Yes, it exists It's not a fabrication

01:20:50

Meaning the book is not a fabrication what's inside it might be but the book itself it exists How many of you are aware of it nobody but these guys hunt down these stories extract them and Popularize them.

01:21:02

So this is one example There are many other examples as well, which you don't have time to get

01:21:07

Okay, that's where the uh, the video ended. There wasn't any any application, uh made outside of Of that so my my assumption is that what yahya is saying is well, there's there's an answer

01:21:19

I just May have destroyed my earbud there Uh, but there's an answer well, okay, um, there is an answer from yasser khadi on the issue of muhammad falling for zainab and so you can choose to think that al -tabari just um

01:21:41

Was using bad sources or whatever else it might be. Okay doesn't change the fundamental problem that the revelation surah 33

01:21:53

Destroyed Real adoption redefined it to something much less and that it stands in sharp contrast to the teachings of the uh, uh profits and of the lord jesus christ himself and so Which which is more consistent?

01:22:16

With this odd Uh revelation about a problem that really didn't exist al -tabari's version or the the version

01:22:28

Of ibn kathir or something like that And why would there be the addition of embarrassing information?

01:22:35

In the sources used by al -tabari that's not in the others. These are these are questions that should be um looked at and considered

01:22:45

I think seriously um, but There you go, uh interacted with the uh with the video and I think in a in a fair manner

01:22:53

I thank yaya for posting it. I'm glad we had opportunity to listen to yasser khadi

01:22:58

I don't think yasser khadi is going to be at all shocked that we have a disagreement here uh, and it would be um a subject well worth discussion in the future uh between he and I um about surah 33 and about marriage and christianity and islam and It would be a

01:23:16

I think a good thing i'd love to be able to explain to a muslim audience. Um how central uh monogamous marriage is in the revelation of the new testament even in the fact that the scriptures liken

01:23:33

The relationship of the lord jesus to his church as husband and wife um

01:23:39

We're called the bride of christ And all the things that that that that would involve which

01:23:45

I don't think can be said of um The islamic understanding of the relationship of allah to the ummah and Very fertile areas of discussion that unfortunately don't always get discussed but Now we've had the opportunity of opening up that discussion.

01:24:05

So so there you go. All right Uh, wow, has it been an hour and 24 minutes since we started?

01:24:13

I'm, sorry Uh, well, you know, I I get these topics.

01:24:18

I know i'm gonna be gone for a while so are you gonna you're gonna try to get some uh, some folks to Sit in while i'm in uh, south africa.

01:24:25

London hadn't really given it much thought Just rebuild everything In here you mean?

01:24:33

No, you're not I can tell you're not no you're not Um, okay, um

01:24:41

One last thing to get to as far as the topics I wanted to get to uh today And I won't spend too much time on this.

01:24:49

Uh to be perfectly honest with you because um we just don't have a lot much time left, but um

01:24:59

I was just asked in channel. Do you experience life at 1 .4 times speed? My experience is the older you get that number keeps going up and up and up and time goes faster and faster and faster yes, it is a

01:25:13

Uh an odd and strange reality of of experience i'm sending you different video this time

01:25:18

This is the one you're gonna have to play with to get it to look semi decent I don't know um exactly

01:25:28

Why layton flowers chose to do what he he did but he did a

01:25:35

Live yet stop and start Response to a nearly three hour long dividing line

01:25:45

And I have not listened to the vast majority of it but some poor guy in channel

01:25:53

Um who wants to be known as the troublemaker from iowa uh, because we have the troublemaker from texas and Now we have the troublemaker from iowa

01:26:07

Uh, he did listen to it and and i'm like why? Why would anyone do that?

01:26:12

I I mean i'm I I know this is layton's day job It's his it's his day job to respond to me that's that's that's what certain powers that be in in texas want done um but I I couldn't

01:26:28

I can't bring myself to invest the time i've i've Got so much coming up.

01:26:33

Uh, we've got we've got a a discussion on roman catholicism uh in south africa, uh

01:26:40

Bashir varney and I are going to debate on the crucifixion I think at the mosque in lenasia uh

01:26:48

And I guess I can go ahead and announce this now um the 17th he says as he looks for his icon with the calendar on it um

01:27:04

March 17th Oh, look at that. It's saint patty's day.

01:27:10

Who cares on march 17th In london once again same location as last year kensington temple

01:27:19

Uh where i'll also be speaking on sunday evening um on the reliability of scripture, but uh 17th

01:27:28

I believe seven o 'clock. I'll have to double check this with the folks there at kensington temple. Um Abdullah al -andalusi and I Uh, we'll be having um a debate slash dialogue

01:27:44

Now, why do I say well what we're working on? is a topic that We both recognize would actually

01:27:53

I tried to do it once before With someone else in a debate format didn't work.

01:27:59

It just didn't work but It is probably The most important topic that christians and muslims could discuss

01:28:09

And so we're going to be discussing it and The folks at kensington temple were just fantastic last time

01:28:18

In promoting it, uh, it was live streamed. Uh, really clearly the venue is perfect um centrally located

01:28:28

I mean just uh It was just one of the best debates we've had the only the only the only thing gonna be missing

01:28:36

Is guess who's not going to be there to take hundreds and hundreds of pictures? uh that mike and kathy uh,

01:28:43

I really maybe maybe the folks at kensington might be able to get somebody to Yeah, do you have any budding?

01:28:51

Uh photographers you'd like to because it was really really nice Uh to have those pictures right afterwards uh, because the the lighting's perfect it's just it's just really

01:29:02

Works out really well, but abdullah alamdulusi um He and I have debated in the past um, he's pretty well known there in london um,

01:29:13

I think abdullah would um Confess that we've always had a a cordial relationship uh, even in our disagreements um

01:29:25

Never been um Abdullah and I haven't had haven't crossed swords in the way that I have with yahya for example um

01:29:33

And abdullah is a very well -read young man And I think he'll be an excellent representative of his side.

01:29:41

And so i'd like to ask people to start praying right now uh For those events for those debates both in south africa uh as well as in london and Uh that there would be not only peace

01:29:59

Uh protection of from any violence or any disruption uh, but that there would especially be like well what we experienced after the uh encounters in memphis uh,

01:30:14

I would really And I think abdullah would agree with this. I I think if we saw the

01:30:21

Muslims and christians talking with one another After these events instead of being in groups by themselves uh separate from one another my hope is that there will be uh much more uh interaction in other words

01:30:41

That the discussion that we'll have on this subject will lead to Uh But when we get done that won't be the end of the discussion

01:30:50

It'll be continuing on from there except it'll be the people who've been watching uh, who will then uh continue uh, continue that and uh

01:31:00

That that would be that would be excellent. That'd be the way that's uh that it needs to be so, uh, that's coming up and uh, really excited about uh, teaching at potter's room

01:31:12

Uh used to be the old potter's room university now, it's northwest university in potter's room Uh potter's room is a fun word to say repeatedly and and it's great to try to to get it to rhyme with other words

01:31:23

And things like that Uh, but i'll be seeing uh, rudolph bushoff coming up here really quick poor rudolph

01:31:29

He has to put up with me every time I come down there He's probably starting at this after this many years starting to wonder why he ever did this but hey, he he set it all up and He's the south african energizer bunny when it comes to doing this kind of stuff

01:31:43

And uh, so i'm really looking forward to seeing him and basheer uh, and um akhmed pondor um

01:31:53

And all the folks down there in in south africa won't be going to uh, pretoria cape town or durban this this trip

01:32:00

Uh, we'll definitely try to get back to those places in uh in future future visits

01:32:06

But i'm having the opportunity to actually teach uh at northwest university, um, during the days regular class and uh that That's why it all worked out for march earlier in the year, you know things like that.

01:32:20

So Uh, that's what's coming up at that time. So having said that Will those debates be live streamed?

01:32:28

Uh, not the ones in south africa. No, uh, but the uh, the one in london will be

01:32:33

Uh with abdullah al -undulusi who by the way is I think the snappiest, uh dresser of all of the

01:32:42

Muslim apologists i've dealt with in london. Uh, he he definitely uh You know sammy zatari wore that Leather jacket that sort of made him look like a greaser out of the 1950s at one time

01:32:54

You know, I think that was what he's going for. I think he think he might might have a secret uh fascination with um

01:33:03

What was Oh, what was the the movie? Greece, but what was um

01:33:09

What was his name? Yeah, I know it's john travolta, but whatever whatever the guy was

01:33:18

You never actually watched it You saw no point in ever having watched greece

01:33:24

So you cannot communicate with this culture at all Well, okay, you you could communicate with millennials, but anybody before that you you have okay.

01:33:31

Got it. Fine. Whatever Um um Just uh, just a little

01:33:39

Cultural problem there. Anyway, uh, one last thing to get to danny. Thank you. I knew it'd come up on screen

01:33:45

Uh danny, I think he wants to be sammy, you know, you want to be danny? I think that's

01:33:50

I think that's what's going on there danny zuko danny zuko Yeah, danny zuko.

01:33:55

Um There you go. All right, let's get back to the subject here and get this over with. Um You you just you disrupted me at that point that was that was all a rabbit trail of your own making

01:34:07

I think you did. I i'm I'm, sorry. I I think you did. Um Back to latent flowers, uh

01:34:19

Let me let me put it this way we some of you saw the explosion of tweets um

01:34:32

That Happened I think Well, which night was it

01:34:39

I think it's a night before last uh From matt walsh now matt walsh is a conservative roman catholic commentator on cultural issues

01:34:53

And he writes a lot of good stuff. He's a good writer Um, he's pretty fearless But he's a roman catholic and As i've said

01:35:06

So many times before I will listen to roman catholics like patrick madrid well, trent horn, you know, trent horn is

01:35:15

Deeply involved in pro -life issues in the united states Kudos to him for that I'll listen to these folks and i'll be tracking with them and we'll be agreeing

01:35:28

Right up to where the gospel comes in and then it's

01:35:35

All of a sudden they're quoting some vision of some saint and uh

01:35:44

Trying to pray to mary to save the united states and russia and all sort of weird stuff like that And off we go because we don't have unity in the faith because we don't have the same gospel and so when

01:36:03

I started seeing these tweets from matt walsh just Going dave hunt on us

01:36:10

Evidently some Someone described him as a cage stage calvinist uh had tweeted to matt walsh about god's predestining someone to heaven or something like that and He just he just went at it.

01:36:27

Well, that shouldn't surprise us Uh, once again the those who deny the decree of god

01:36:39

Deny the sovereignty of god not just simply in choosing to save but to actually save um, hey

01:36:48

Synergists of a feather flock together, you know, um, that's Shouldn't really be overly surprising

01:36:57

There was a article on huffington post that uh

01:37:06

Was basically, uh, the title is neo -calvinism the non -elect and planned parenthood a grand kind of farce

01:37:15

A grand kind of farce And here is the uh

01:37:24

Paragraph I wanted to add in here Neo -calvinists, I believe rightly cite god's justice and human dignity as the basis for opposing abortion on demand all while norm wrongly believing

01:37:36

In a god who arbitrarily selects the vast majority of humanity Before they are born or do anything

01:37:44

Who are all precious little babies at some point with inherent human dignity and all that to be tormented forever in hell

01:37:51

That's their ultimate purpose as far as god's concerned to languish in the eternal concentration camp all to the praise of his glory um now this is uh, a

01:38:06

A fellow by the name of zach hoag Uh, that's him writing there

01:38:12

And once I can get the advertise on a screen that was uh updated november. It was posted november 4th 2016

01:38:20

I believe phibby actually, uh posted that Uh in response because I guess zach hoag went after summer

01:38:28

And so that's roundabout way of why I uh ended up seeing this um statement now we hear a lot of this and This is the very essence

01:38:47

Of the latent flowers rhetoric as well And I want to I want to point this out and then play a section that absolutely demonstrates my point for me from a latent flowers video

01:39:02

Sort of video, I mean if you call holding an iphone up to a computer screen a video, uh,

01:39:08

I guess that's what it was Uh, I have explained this issue many times before But I want to expand on part of that explanation

01:39:26

Biblical revelation is not two -dimensional It is not a

01:39:33

Simplistic words on a piece of paper two dimensions uh type of a thing it has depth there are there are threads of divine truth and themes that Are introduced earlier in revelation

01:39:57

That sort of seem to disappear and then come out and when they're joined with another thread revelation

01:40:05

The hue and color is changed by its By its connection with that that new part of revelation that new element of revelation.

01:40:15

So it takes on a deeper meaning I've likened it to the beauty of the diamond

01:40:22

You can take a picture of a diamond from one perspective, but it can never capture The beauty of the diamond because the diamond's beauty is not only on the surface level.

01:40:34

It's internal. It's three -dimensional And you would never ever understand

01:40:41

Why a diamond is considered to be? so precious by mankind if you didn't understand

01:40:50

That the diamond was something more than what you just saw on a computer screen in One dimension just from one perspective

01:40:59

Or on a piece of paper in a picture So I've talked about this many times and I've said that one of the one of the tactics of anti -reformed

01:41:13

Individuals Is to try to flatten out What we're saying into a simplistic well, it's it's what zach hoag did right here

01:41:24

He's completely ignoring The importance and reality

01:41:32

Of human existence in time the scriptures talk about this fascinating interesting concept of Mankind acting

01:41:50

In in the decree of god, we're not we're not denying there's decree of god But how mankind acts in his life

01:42:00

And how god Works through those actions is demonstrating god's wisdom

01:42:09

God's power god's grace and i've pointed out that If you try to take

01:42:20

Human experience in time and turn it into nothing Well, it doesn't matter because there's divine decree and everybody, you know

01:42:25

It's they're just going to hell anyways, and as far as god's concerned, that's their ultimate purpose And because there is an acknowledgement that god has an ultimate purpose anything that comes before that irrelevant

01:42:37

It's irrelevant. It doesn't matter You can get rid of it. That's what zach hoag did That's what matt walsh did

01:42:45

That's what layton flowers does and here's the problem with that jesus entered into what they throw out

01:42:58

Now you start to understand what i've been trying to communicate when I say the incarnation of jesus christ is the ultimate refutation

01:43:07

Of those who try to say that what happens in time that we that we as christian that we as reformed people are just teaching an idea of A puppet master

01:43:18

Jesus didn't become a puppet But he became like his brother in all things. So guess what his brother and our puppets either

01:43:25

So if you If you accept and use the puppet analogy, then you don't understand what we're talking about You're not even you're not even arguing against what we're talking about And that's also why god can hold men accountable for acting upon the desires of their hearts

01:43:39

Because that's the realm of judgment not any other realm all of these people Try to pretend

01:43:46

That we should base our actions in time upon a knowledge of god's eternal decree, which he does not give to us

01:43:56

Which he does not give to us and there's the error All they want is the picture of the diamond from the top.

01:44:03

They don't want to look at anything else They don't want to see if there's anything else and we say there's a whole lot more We say there's a whole lot more and this comes out really clearly in this portion uh, and again,

01:44:19

I appreciate the troublemaker in iowa's, uh taking the time because I didn't I wasn't I wasn't gonna listen to this and so he gave me the time index

01:44:28

So I was able to just go straight to it and then didn't have to waste the rest of my life but here's um

01:44:34

Here's an example from uh from latent flowers and uh, let's just um

01:44:40

Let's just listen in here's here's the next thing we gotta get to The lost person made a bad decision

01:44:48

You know what's missing? You know what's missing in latent flowers understanding? of sinners rebellion

01:44:58

The sinfulness of sin I I cannot imagine he ever got much use out of the valley of vision

01:45:08

I can't imagine he ever found the puritans overly interesting to read Because what's missing in latent flowers and he's got enough stuff out there now that you can you can check is the sinfulness of sin

01:45:22

Is man's love of sin man's love of rebellion? Um He's just he all he's saying is the determinative nature of sin.

01:45:32

In other words sin itself determines and the desire for sin determines everything you do

01:45:40

And god ultimately has decreed for you to be born with that sinful desire No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, you missed it.

01:45:48

You are deaf to what i'm saying Everybody else in the audience heard it but you layton wow

01:45:56

And that's not what i'm saying How how could you hear that you are so focused on the task that's been given to you by you know, who?

01:46:05

That you can't even hear what i'm saying That's the exact opposite what i was saying I was talking about the sinfulness of sin.

01:46:13

I'm talking about it's moral. It's rebellious. It's depraved. It's it's filthy aspect

01:46:20

And you go back off onto something else Uh, it's that Cannot do otherwise unless he gives you a new nature new heart

01:46:29

And then you can and you will in fact not that you just can he doesn't just enable you to do it

01:46:34

He actually causes you to want to do it. So he's just arguing for pure heart determinism He just puts it in, you know different language the unholiness

01:46:45

Of mankind His rejection of holiness his rejection of what is good his perversion

01:46:52

Of what is good. You don't all you see man presented as a hey made a made a bad choice

01:47:01

You mean he followed his heart Right, so what i'm trying to do is blame man for his actual choice

01:47:07

Whereas you're ultimately you're systematic is putting that back onto god. See he cannot hear what i'm saying.

01:47:14

Can he? He did i've got I I can't I can't see any other elements. I gotta squish it back down.

01:47:20

It's just Because you're saying god has a decree. So it's it's just it's all about god and and God can't use any means and there can't be anything to to to the sinfulness of sin.

01:47:29

There can't be anything. No, no, no no, no, it's just I mean, this is anti -calvinist rangeman syndrome.

01:47:35

It really is. It's frightening It's uh, it's scary Because he was decreed before time began to be born in a condition where he couldn't do otherwise

01:47:45

So yeah, yeah i'm i'm putting i'm putting the blame back onto the creature and taking it off of god

01:47:50

Thus that that's one of the reasons i've made that case that a defensive free will is a defense of holiness

01:47:56

A defensive autonomous free will is a defense of god's character and his holiness And a lot of people don't recognize that because they're not understanding that we're not trying to argue for like Man's great or something that man's wonderful and should be worshiped

01:48:08

No, we're saying man's actually worse than the calvinists think he is because they're not rejecting a god who's already rejected them They're rejecting a god who's provided for him and loves them, which is worse a a rebellious teenager who's rebelling against his parents who are drug dealers and abusers and haters and mean and ugly and Nasty or a teenager who rebels against loving kind gracious parents who provides for him

01:48:30

Obviously the one who's who's rebelling against um, the parents that are good. So so god's a a drug dealer um in calvinism,

01:48:39

I guess Totally missing the point completely. I I was I was noticing people on twitter going wow

01:48:46

Layton flyer's completely missed the point now as we're listening you can see yep. Um, not even on the planet

01:48:52

What's what we're saying we're saying these rebellious people are rebelling against a god who loves and provides for these people that's how bad they're

01:49:00

Men in our system are 10 times thousand times worse Than in the calvinistic system because in the calvinistic system the poor reprobate is just a victim of god's decree

01:49:09

He's born in a condition where he can't do anything about it the poor reprobate. He's just a victim of god's decree

01:49:15

This man says he's a former calvinist. Wow. Okay. All right I mean this this is so misrepresentation.

01:49:23

It's so straw man that it it you just uh, you know someone just said in channel he

01:49:31

They don't desire understanding. They're they're just this is raw meat for their own people This is to keep the already rejecting rejecting.

01:49:38

It's there's nothing more than that I I get it, but it's still sad to listen to he's hated salvificly rejected.

01:49:44

And by the way this hated salvificly, please um And I haven't gotten to the main point yet So hold on a second maker and I mean you feel sorry for the reprobate of the calvinistic worldview

01:49:54

Oh, you don't actually you don't actually um, see them as all that bad because hey, they couldn't do anything else

01:50:00

The guy so so he's in other words, you hear what he's doing He's proving the very point that I was talking about at this point I was saying he doesn't see the sinfulness of sin.

01:50:08

He doesn't recognize that and what does he do in his commentary? Give further evidence of exactly what

01:50:14

I was saying It's amazing I needed him to demonstrate his glory and his power through their reprobation

01:50:21

So you just kind of you just feel sorry for him is all In continuing in his rebellion against god, he spit in the face of god

01:50:30

He okay, which is worse spitting in the face of a god who hates you and has condemned you to suffer for eternity in hell before you were ever born or spitting in the face now remember

01:50:40

What quote unquote reprobate person and we don't know who they are in this life. Remember? Has knowledge of this none

01:50:48

The whole argument is so fallacious and so absurd that it is it's shocking to me

01:50:54

This is what's being taught to southern baptist seminary students in these schools Really Wow god who loved and died in your place

01:51:05

Because he didn't want you to be condemned and he wants to save you which is worse your view of man is way too high

01:51:11

Dr. White trade his detestation for the one who gives him everything.

01:51:17

Here we go The lost man in latent flowers, whoa, whoa gives him everything

01:51:23

Listen in calvinism. He didn't give him everything. He didn't give the reprobate jack squat.

01:51:29

He didn't die for him He didn't love him. He didn't grant him faith or the ability thereof

01:51:34

He gave him breath for 80 To 90 years so as to suffer for the rest of eternity in hell, that's what he gave him

01:51:42

There's nothing there's there's nothing That god quote unquote gave to the reprobate of your worldview in our worldview.

01:51:50

However god gave all men The grace sufficient for them to respond and therefore when they don't it's their own bad decision.

01:51:58

I blame their bad decision I blame their choices. I don't blame gods So god gave

01:52:05

Nothing God gave nothing To these individuals nothing at all.

01:52:10

No common grace But we do have the assertion of prevenient grace didn't we they just did you catch that? Um, however, god gave all men the grace sufficient for them to respond.

01:52:20

There's there's there's your prevenient grace may not call it that But there's your prevenient grace but From their perspective, but from the calvinist perspective, he's given them

01:52:31

I what I you well, you heard what he said. I won't repeat it. Um, so what's the foundation of all this?

01:52:40

You ignore the drama of redemption you ignore The fact that the incarnation proves that what happens in time is important to god

01:52:50

The means are important all of this you throw all that out who cares?

01:52:56

In the final analysis i'm going to ignore everything the bible says about this in the final analysis

01:53:03

If god's made the decision then nothing else matters squish it all down. That's all they can do That's all they can do and the result if they stay consistent with this

01:53:12

Can never remain orthodox? If they keep if they see what happens and if you keep pushing them, they just keep they just keep becoming more and more radical against biblical truth and the result

01:53:25

Can be can be very troubling so you expect this from matt walsh

01:53:33

You expect this from the consistent synergist and you see what we're getting from the quote unquote

01:53:41

Uh misnamed misnomered, uh southern baptist traditionalists as well uh denial of common grace of assertion of Of prevenient grace not ever proving the existence of of said thing um, and then this

01:53:58

Again, just utter inability to hear What is being said?

01:54:05

uh that the the fact that man's sin Is an offense a stench in the nostrils of god doesn't doesn't even figure they just made a bad choice

01:54:16

Given sufficient grace made a bad choice Um There you go, uh, so but that that's all i'm interested in I I just I as I read through the um, um

01:54:32

And there's other things In in the uh in the statement obvious in how long was this thing anyways, uh

01:54:40

One hour and 52 minutes. So yeah, uh, i'm i'm glad that I only had to listen to a very very small portion

01:54:48

Uh of it so Wow, look at that coming up on on 3 p .m.

01:54:54

Uh our time so, uh right at mega, uh

01:55:00

Size I was I was gonna go Let's go go go shorter. I was gonna go. I thought I could do it in an hour

01:55:06

Maybe maybe a jumbo but oh well anyways Thanks for watching the dividing line.

01:55:11

We should be here lord willing at some point next week I get back on tuesday.

01:55:17

So we might be able to do a program on tuesday. We'll see I'm speaking in southern california at the tmi, uh symposium, which is before the shepherds conference, but back on tuesday