The Shocking Meaning behind John 6 with Pastor Claude Ramsey DMW#188

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Exploring Theology, Doctrine, and all of the Fascinating Subjects in Between, Broadcasting from an

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Undisclosed Location, Dead Men Walking starts now. Yeah, that's right.

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Get hydrated, Claude. Get hydrated, baby. We're going to put you to work today. Welcome back to another episode of Dead Men Walking Podcast.

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I'm your host, Greg, and with me, I have Claude Ramsey today, Pastor Claude, and also the host of Here I Stand Theology Podcast.

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Guys, always a joy to have Claude here. Oh, man. We've had some guests on the last few weeks, but really haven't got into Scripture.

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We've been talking about the Trump indictment. We've been talking about constitutional law.

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We kind of got off in politics for a few weeks. We did have Testimony Tuesday a few weeks ago with Craig Twining, which was awesome.

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Noah Wing came on, talked about three books that every young man should read. Check out that episode.

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I thought it was phenomenal. But, man, when we want to dig into the Word, we got to call our boy,

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Claude Ramsey, the man, the Roll Tide King, the humble servant.

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You know what, Claude? It's a compliment. Every person that I know that knows you, they just have nothing but great things to say about you.

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They go, man, what a humble guy, just a quiet spirit. But, boy, when he gets fired up about the Word, get out of his way because it's coming at you.

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What's going on, brother? I've been looking forward to this ever since you texted me on this.

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Hey, let me tell you how ready I am. I've got my water with electrolytes. I've got my

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Yerba Mate. I've got my root beer. Oh, my gosh. You've got multiple drink choices there.

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Yeah. All I've had was my Pop -Tart this morning. I'm just coasting through until I get ready to go get some lunch in a little while.

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Well, we won't keep you too long. But, this will also be up on YouTube.

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And if it is, when it is, you need to go look at this video because I'm looking at your backdrop and it feels like every time that we have or I have you on, it just gets a little better and better.

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I mean, we've got, what is that? Palletwood back there. I've got a Samurai sword. You've got

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Neon. Enjoy. What is it? Enjoy Calvinism. First Thessalonians 516.

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We've got bobbleheads. I mean, you've got a flag. What's that? What's the story on the flag? Is that given to you or is that someone in your families?

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It was my father's flag. Yeah, that is awesome. He was in the Air Force. Oh, man.

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Awesome. And then we also have just all the little you got the roll tide stuff.

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You got the here. I stand theology. You got Calvin with the torch or the tulip, man. I'm loving what you got going on here.

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It's a joy just to look at your screen. I mean, I'm getting this by ADHD is kicking in. I'm supposed to be talking to you and I'm back here admiring your studio.

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It's looking good, brother. Well, that's that's the happy Calvinist logo right there. I love it.

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You know what? The flaming tulip. I was I was going to wear the shirt and it's

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I'm washing it right now because I wore it a few weeks ago on an episode and gave you shout out. Claude sent some people his happy Calvinist.

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What does it say on it? I was Calvinist before it was cool. Yeah, it fits great.

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I wore it and someone went, what are you wearing? I said, that's my boy, Claude Ramsey. Dude, I got hooked up.

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So it's going to be one of the shirts I pack when I go down to Fight Left Feast. I know you're not going to be there, but it's going to get some exposure there.

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So I'll send them your way. Are you selling those to support the show or just giving them away? I am selling them to support the show.

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Twenty five dollars each. Yeah, I was just cracked. That was not cool. Twenty five dollars each.

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And just, you know, I can I can take payment via PayPal. So if anybody just wants to message me on Facebook or Instagram, let me know that you want one.

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Throw it out there. Where do they get a hold of you at? Facebook, Instagram. My name's

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Claude Ramsey again. So you can find me by name on Facebook, Instagram. You're here. I stand Theo.

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And as well, if you decide if folks decide to purchase a shirt on PayPal here,

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I stand the theology. Yeah, we'll link it up to you so everyone can click on it. I think it's a really neat shirt.

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It's a good way to support his podcast, a podcast that I absolutely love. And I love that you get multiple guys on there sometimes, too.

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You guys do your is it Friday night? What night is it that I always happen to click on the live shows? That's Thursday night.

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That's Thursday night podcast. Yeah. Labor's podcast. Yeah. And you always contribute there.

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Really like it. So enough shameless self -promotion. You know, I always got to do my sales pitch at the top of the show, especially for the guys

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I like. But go check him out here. I stand theology podcast. Solid, solid podcast with lots of good stuff.

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Always getting into the word, making you think, cutting your flesh, ruining your day a little bit by cutting your flesh.

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But you want to what we recover from when we go. Thank you, Lord. Right. That's right. Oh, man.

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So you got a lot going on. We're moving into fall. You've been busy. Yes, sir.

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Yes, sir. It's busy with the church, busy with work. Yard, you know, yard upkeeps always, always.

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I enjoy doing that. I enjoy doing that. But man, when it's out there, it's 90 degrees like it has been every day for the whatever.

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I know we're not in Phoenix or anything like that, but still it's hot. But I don't care what it go ahead.

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You know, go ahead. I do want to give a shout out to some folks at my church, though.

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Some one gentleman in particular has stepped up and taken the graveyard for me so I don't have to mow the church graveyard this year.

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It's been a blessing. So, yeah. Yeah. Because you kind of do it all over there, too, right?

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I mean, you're doing your own landscaping and grass cutting and all that right at the church.

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Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'll tell you what, those people out in Arizona, though, it's hot. It's one hundred and four. And it's like, dude, try ninety four plus eighty eight percent humidity.

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And it says on your phone feels like one oh nine. And you're like, I'll take that dry heated. I know it's cliche, but I'll take the dry heat any day.

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We were three days ago. We were at one hundred and two with humidity here in Michigan was one of the hottest days.

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I think it was technically September. My son's out there practicing football in full gear, and I'm just I'm sitting on the sideline watching him and he's running around fine.

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They're hydrating and everything. And I'm just sweating. Just just I'm not even moving. I go,

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I either need to lose some weight or what's going on? Not moving, sweating. It was it was rough.

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So I feel I feel you because when you're doing that work in that, you know, but maybe it's good.

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You know, we will sweat it out and, you know, get hydrated and good to go. So cool, man.

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Same here doing some stuff busy with real estate, busy with life, homeschool, church.

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Small groups are starting back up. We got all kinds of fun stuff going on at our church at Christ the Word. And I'm excited for it.

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But I want to take some time and have you on. I'd have a few things rolling around in my head.

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We have a guy coming on from TikTok who has a pretty big following, and he had said some stuff about Calvinism and meeting some

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Calvinists and not in kind of feeling like it was arrogance and stuck up and all the kind of stuff that you get with that.

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Right. And I go, man, that's not that's not the type of reformed people I know. I mean, most of the people in the circles

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I walk with walk in such humbleness and grace after you are introduced to the doctrines of grace and read through the

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Bible and understand that we are depraved and sinners and there's nothing good that we did. And why do we deserve this grace?

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And so he's coming on. And with that, I had just happened, didn't even mean to intentionally, but read through reading again through John and got to John chapter six.

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And I went, oh, yeah, this is just such a great salvific kind of chapter with a lot of sticky stuff in it for people to kind of debate.

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But I was hoping we could just read through that and then maybe pick it apart a little bit, discuss it. Would that be OK? Absolutely.

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All right. I'm going to I'm reading from the LSB. Don't don't hurt me now.

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I just I just switched from the ESV after eight years. So that's my daily reader LSB. But I love the

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ESV as well, too. I'm going to start at verse twenty six and go into the end to forty.

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And the only reason I do that I know are kind of our verses that we're really going to be focusing on are in the 30s.

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But and I would say this to anyone, and I know you know this, Claude, but when reading maybe a verse or two, back it up, go back and maybe read the entire chapter, read a little bit past it.

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We got to have context. It's a good hermeneutic. We just can't take one or two out of there.

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You know, Jesus is talking like we're talking. Could you imagine if someone clipped something you and I were saying?

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Right. And then you said, oh, that's what the whole conversation is about. This is what you know. So so I like to come back a little bit to where he starts talking about on the bread of life.

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There's some analogies there. There's some important stuff. And then we'll take it down to 40. So so, John, 26 through 40, if you're listening, you can read along as well.

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This is from the LSB. Here we go. Jesus answered them and said, truly, truly, I say to you, you seek me not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled.

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Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the son of man will give to you.

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For on him, the father God set his seal. That's important there. Therefore, they said to him, what should we do so that we may work the works of God?

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Jesus answered and said to them, this is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.

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So they said to him, what then do you do for signs so that we may see and believe?

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What work do you perform? Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, as it is written, he gave them bread from heaven to eat.

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Jesus. Jesus then said to them, truly, truly, I say to you, Moses has not given you the bread from heaven, but my father gives you the true bread from heaven for the bread for the bread of God is that which comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.

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Then they said to him, Lord, always give us this bread. And Jesus said to them, I am that bread of life.

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He who comes to me will never hunger and he who believes in me will never thirst. Oh, amen.

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I love it. Verse 36. But I said to you that you have seen me and yet you still not do not believe all that the father gives me will come to me and the one who comes to me,

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I will never cast out for. I have come down from heaven not to do my own will, but to do the will of him who sent me.

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Now this is the will of him who sent me. He's going to tell us that all that he has given to me,

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I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day for this is the will of my father, that everyone who sees the son and believes in him will have eternal life.

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And I myself will raise him up on the last day. I'm sorry. We'll raise, we'll raise.

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Yeah. Raise him up on the last day. Sorry. Um, so what a great set of verses there. I mean, we are, you know, uh, other religions sometimes will challenge the divinity of Christ or he never called himself

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God or, uh, you know, you'll have the Jehovah witnesses, the Mormons. Um, this is a pretty great verse that encompasses a lot.

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We have Christ calling himself the bread of life, uh, doing the will of the father, uh, talking about the relationship between what

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I see as, as election and predestination and, um, raising up on the last day.

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Uh, when you take that, uh, those, those chunks of verses there, what, what's the first thing you gather out of that cloud?

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What, what are you looking at when you see Christ talking about the bread of life, reflecting back to the old Testament and the manna and Moses and go, no,

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I'm the true bread of life. There's a lot there to unpack, but what are we seeing when we first read that?

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Well, my mind immediately, when I began to, to, to read anytime that I read that, but really, and it's something that I do intentionally, uh, particularly to kind of, uh, organize and prioritize the thoughts in my mind.

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I, my mind goes into systematic theology mode and like just that passage right there in just that short passage that you read, doctrinally speaking, there's the doctrine of God's sovereignty, the doctrine of predestination.

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You mentioned that the doctrine of election, the doctrine of calling the doctrine of perseverance of the saints, right?

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There's justification. We don't, we don't think, I know this is kind of a microscopic view, but justification, sanctification, glorification, all is in that section of scripture.

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I mean, there is so much in that. And it's again, um, folks will say doctrine, uh, is boring, right?

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Uh, that's, that's for dead. Dead theology doesn't help anybody. No, the living word helps those whom

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Christ has brought to life and it quickens us. The word of, in Hebrews, the scripture tells us, right, the word of God is quick and powerful and sharper than any two edged sword.

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And just studying that passage day before yesterday, as I was just in my personal time, the context of that verse right there,

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Hebrews 4 .12, the word of God is living and powerful. Holy cow. When we just consider the context of that, it's, it, it talks about the influence of the word of God on the regenerate man, on the regenerate boy, on the regenerate girl.

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So, I mean, it's good. It's very good. What do you think the significance is of, and I'll comment here too, but the significance of him of Christ, um, you know, kind of making a point that look at Moses gave you bread, but it wasn't the bread from heaven because it looks like the people talking to him there says our fathers ate manna and gave us bread from heaven because he's saying,

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I'm the bread of life. And they said, well, we already had that. You know, what was Christ? What do you think

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Christ was trying to do there? Cause I always find it. Here's the thing. I always, I look at, we, we have the, we have the advantage of looking back over 2000 years and standing on the shoulders of giants.

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But I, I look at, uh, some of the disciples and some of the people standing there in front of Christ and I go, well, how could you not get this?

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This seems so simple and plain to me. He's saying, I'm the bread and you're going, well, oh, you mean like a loaf of sourdough?

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We, we had that back in the desert. Well, what, you know, what are you talking about? And, and Christ had to almost be so blunt with them when talking about that was this, when he's referring back to that, is he fulfilling a prophecy?

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Is he trying to make a comparison? What, why is he saying, well, no, I'm, I'm the true bread of life. You had it back with Moses and the manna, but I'm the true bread.

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What's going on there. Do you think? So you said, you mentioned it earlier context, right? Context is key.

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So, um, we, it w it would be easy for us to pull this, snag the section out, just post it up on our wall, stare at it, dissect it, exegete it apart from the surrounding text around it.

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So I think what's going on in the immediate context is what's, what's just taken place a short time before this cross fed the 5 ,000.

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Right. Yeah. With, right. They had fish and hush puppies and, but and then, uh, the, the, the disciples get into a boat, right.

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Go over to the other side. The scripture says that that's when the storm came up on the sea, uh,

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Jesus came to him. They thought he was a ghost, right. Immediately when he entered the ship, they were on the other side.

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So what happened? Uh, all these people that were fed, uh, they missed the boat basically.

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So they took off trying to find Jesus. When they found Jesus, what's in their minds, intellectually speaking, is that they had just had their belly filled with bread.

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So I think there's a twofold, uh, reason that Christ said what he said, number one, immediate context would be, they just got fed.

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And he already knows that they're not looking for bread for their soul, that they just want more bread for the body.

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They're looking for a temporary quick fix when they need an eternal soul fix, right.

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From the Lord. Well, that, yeah, well, that's a very good point because it opens up in 26 showing they physically, they were fed, but then they saw a miraculous sign.

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And he says, truly, truly, I say to you, you seek me not because you saw signs. You just saw me, you know, called me a ghost and saw me walking on the water and calming all these things, but you seek me because you ate loaves and were filled, which is such a great example of how easily distracted our flesh is against the spiritual things, right?

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Um, uh, CS Lewis and screw tape letters has such a good line in there to where he, where a screw tape is writing, uh, to, to the, to his, uh, nephew.

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And he says, look, you don't have to present the Christian with, with all these ungodly things, just distract them, make them hungry.

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Maybe a bell rings. He has a smell of fresh bread. Like we just need to distract them away from the things of God.

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And he can be easily distracted by using his own physical fleshly attributes against him.

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And this is what a prime example. I didn't mean to interrupt and I'm gonna let you finish that point, but what a prime example of our flesh really just overruling the things of the spiritual because they had just seen this miraculous thing.

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And he goes, you're not even, you don't even care that you just saw a miracle. You're glad your belly's full. And, and, and sadly, that's, that's the cycle of humanity, right?

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I mean, from old to new Testament, it's God, uh, God creates man, right?

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Man rebels against God. God, uh, forgives man, uh, man is thankful man sins.

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And so goes the cycle, right? Is it's the same principle, even back in the wilderness when, when, what

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Jesus refers to that the manner, right? I think that the Hebrew, uh, basically the

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Hebrew translation for man is what is it? Uh, what is it? They didn't know what to call it, right?

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What is it? Well, it's bread from heaven. That's then that's an anthropomorphic terminology use so that we can understand, right.

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Because of our pea brains, right? Yeah. I mean, I believe Martin Luther said it one time, maybe this is not an exact quote, but it's something to this.

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Uh, uh, God's word is entirely clear.

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Man is just stupid. That was pretty close. I mean, that was a clod ism, but that was close.

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Yeah. I mean, that sounds like Martin Luther too, right? I mean, uh, there was no reference to the devil kissing my backside, but, but, but the, the, the continual, the continual, we see this repeated throughout the scriptures basically is what it is.

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And it repetition helps us to learn and understand and anthropomorphically it's does so for us.

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It's a, it's really another benefit and an aid of the scriptures themselves, because when we see, when we see

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God's people fall into sin and we see God call them back, he always reminds them of what he has done.

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And that's, there's always a point of reference that we have to go to. And that's another beautiful benefit of having the word of God.

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Amen. Yeah. Amen. I think it's good to note too, if you know, I'm on the same food subject as we opened up in a verse 26 is, you know, in my personal life,

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I, I have grown by leaps and bounds when I'm fasting, uh, usually on a water fast.

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And mostly it's because of the, the dumbness of my flesh being distracted by food and the enjoyment of food.

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And look at when I don't think either one of us are saying, yeah, go, go, go on the Lord's day and feast with, with your family and your church and sit down and have meals with your family.

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And it's good to eat. It's good to be sustained and filled. But what I'm saying is I found myself multiple times on a fast, going to the refrigerator, opening the door and going,

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Oh no, I can't have that. You know, going to the television and going, but I feel hungry.

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Shut that. It's like the only thing I can do is dive into the word and pray when I'm fasting.

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It's like forces me to get away from all the distractions. I'm starving my flesh literally and figuratively during a fast, not focusing on those, um, on that food and that satisfaction and instead feasting and, and, and focusing and being satisfied by the reading, meditation and prayer.

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And I think this just is another, even just in those opening verses, how much we can focus on the physical that distracts us from, from the spiritual.

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Um, and it's for me, like I said, you look at the disciples and go, Oh man, how can you not get this?

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But at the same time, I wish there was some way that we could make the comparison of what it was to be fed really well in that time when almost everyone lived in poverty, you were in kind of a class system, right?

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These guys were fishermen on the scale of, you know, uh, of jobs that would be, they were lower class.

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So they got this guy that can just feed them whenever they're hungry. I mean, we can't understand that in this country.

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We can go, you know, down the street, 15 feet down the street and there's a sub shop, there's food.

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I mean, we have more wealth in food than we know what to do with. Um, you know, we're actually dying from being too fat from eating too much in this country.

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So I wish there was a comparison too, to where I don't want to knock the disciples or the people following them because it was a pretty big deal to be fed.

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Um, and then Jesus switches it around and says, well, no, uh, you know, that's the physical bread, but I'm the bread of life, which

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I find, I find interesting. Yeah. So, so he sets that out. Eternal supernatural provision.

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Yeah. That's, that's the key. Say that again. Eternal supernatural provision versus versus natural provision.

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That's why, you know, and we see the analogy use bread, water, right? Jesus said, I'm the bread of life.

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I'm the water of life. Yeah. And I think this is teeing it up for it being very salvific too, right?

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Um, we're not, we're not Catholics. We're not Lutherans. We don't take that literally and take that one verse and then go, if he's the bread and he said, eat his flesh.

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Well, that's what the Eucharist is. And now there's a physical transformation in the, in, in the community, right?

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We look at the whole thing. We, okay. God, Christ is talking about a salvific work here because if we keep reading, we get into, you know, the thirties, um, he gives a speech and he says,

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I'm the, I'm the bread of life. And then he starts talking about the will of God, which I find very interesting.

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Um, and in verse 36, but I said to you that you have seen me yet. You do not believe.

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So now he's, he's said that twice already in this section. So anytime Jesus says something, it's important, uh, for me, a mental note when

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I'm reading through, he says something twice within just a few verses. You go, okay, something really important.

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He's reiterating, right? You still don't believe all that the father gives me will come to me.

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And the one who comes to me, I will never cast out. Now, these two verses are reformed folk.

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We love these verses, right? Sometimes they're, they're overused in our community. You'll have someone who, you know, argues against, um, uh, election or predestination and we'll go right to John, you know, six 36 and 37 and go, but look at right here.

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Um, but I think it's important whether you, you know, look at if you're, if you're a minion or you're not

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Calvinistic in your, um, theology, uh, we have to deal with election and predestination.

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It's mentioned 42 times between the two words in the new Testament. So we just can't throw it out. Right. What, what do you feel?

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What do you feel that Christ is saying here? When you read through this in 36 and 37, when he says, look, you don't even believe you still don't believe, but all that the father gives me will come to me.

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And the one who comes to me, I will never cast out. You touched on it earlier, but there's some deep theological and doctrinal issues going on in those two verses.

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What do you think they are? All right. So beginning, uh, beginning again, and I know it's basic, like 101 reform theology, but goes back to the sovereignty of God because well, number one, he continues to point back to Moses.

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Again, there's that continual pointing back that reference point. Um, also, also considering God's sovereignty in that and comes in predestination,

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God's for, for ordaining of events, right? Uh, election God choosing beforehand.

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Um, Moses was a, an example of just those first three doctrines right there.

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God's sovereignty, uh, God's predestinating purpose and God's electing purpose in Moses.

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We see that pointing back to Moses. We see that. And then when he said, right, he said, all that the father gave,

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I'm sorry, all that the father gives me will come to me. And the one who comes to me, I will never cast out. We see the doctrine of the calling of God.

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What, what we read, we love Romans again, right? Everybody loves Romans 8 28. All things work together for the good of those who

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God has called in or those are the call according to his purpose. But we tend to forget that, you know, the verse before and the verse after, those whom he predestines, he calls, uh, the calling of God, which is linked.

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Yeah. Which is linked to the very next verse. Yeah, that's exactly right. The calling of God is certain. And then there's, um, and within that calling, there's those subsets.

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There's, there's justification being made right in the side of God. There's sanctification, right?

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God, uh, leading his people along as one of the old hymns says, God leads his dear children along.

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And then there's the doctrine of glorification in this, because all that the father gives me,

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I will, uh, the one who comes to me, I will never cast out. And then later when we get to it here, uh, we'll see really the doctrine of glorification, the ultimate fulfillment and promise of God's preservation of the saints and keeping of the saints and renewing of the saints in our glorified bodies.

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Amen. You know, I don't often like to paraphrase, but sometimes, you know, the

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Bible, but sometimes when I read it, I'll kind of think back and go, okay, so I'm reading, this is Holy Scripture inspired.

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Sometimes we, we, we kind of, you know, and rightly so we put that up on a high pedestal.

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And then we almost read it as if we're reading a, I don't know, like something under glass. Sometimes I like to look at it and go, okay, so how is this going in conversation?

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Jesus is standing there and he goes, look at you guys, you know, and this is how I see it almost like if he's talking in regular vernacular, you guys saw all these wonderful things.

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You still don't believe me, but you want to know what the, the father's going to do what the father's going to do. He gives me whoever come, whoever he wills to me, who's going to come and, uh, you know, and I'll never cast them out because I don't do my will.

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I do the will of the father. So it's very hard for me when I talk to non -reform folks to not make this a, you know, not make this about, uh, election in those two verses, just because of the buildup, uh, from starting in 26, all the way to he's going, look at you, you guys don't even believe, but guess what?

28:27

The father's going to give me exactly who the father's going to give me. And that's his will. And I'm fine with that because I do his will here on earth, not my will.

28:35

Um, so it's, you know, if this wasn't about some type of election, you wouldn't even have that verse 36 there where he's qualifying it with unbelief in my opinion.

28:45

Um, because he's, he's, he's saying, look at this, you're standing in front of me and you, and you don't believe, but also, you know, the father's going to give me who he gives me.

28:55

So I look at that too. And I say, it's very clear that you can be in the presence of Christ.

29:03

You can, uh, have the gospel, uh, preach to you. You can be shown the example of the gospel in Christ.

29:11

And if your heart is hardened, you will not believe it is not until we have faith, which faith is a gift from God, right?

29:18

Even that is a gift. Yeah. So we see the election built in to that statement, which I think is hard to argue with.

29:24

I don't know if I've ever had a really good non -Calvinistic argument for this group of verses, let alone many of the others.

29:34

And this is one that really, uh, confused me in my early twenties when, when the

29:40

Lord, uh, saved me. And then, um, and then also reassured me a few verses later,

29:46

I was taught growing up in church that you can absolutely lose your salvation.

29:51

You do that one bad thing. That's your back slidding too far. That one bad thing that you go too far.

29:57

And it's like, what, what a way to live. I mean, I think that actually repelled me from the faith as a young kid going, well,

30:04

I don't know what that one thing is. I'm a pretty bad person every single day. Uh, you know, I talked back to my mom when

30:10

I'm nine, I steal stuff when I'm 13. I, uh, I'm out there, you know, partying and doing crazy stuff in my late teens and early adult.

30:18

It's like, so what thing is it that, that does slip me up? Um, and when

30:24

I read this, uh, at 23, I went, wait a minute. So everything that the father gives him, he doesn't, he doesn't lose it.

30:31

He doesn't slip through his fingers. It doesn't. And then he raises, raises me up on the last day.

30:36

What's that all about? Um, can you speak to the assurance that we have in those, those verses as well too?

30:43

Yes, absolutely. I think, I think, um, like the

30:49

Roman Catholic faith was, was, and is even still today, a religion of fear, right?

30:56

Fear is as with cults, as with all cults, right? Are religions of fear because it's always based and premised upon what you do to merit your good standing or your low standing.

31:11

Yeah. Right. So it's, it's a, it's man centered and the assurance that this, this verse particularly brings, um, and, and particularly in going back to what

31:23

I'm going to refer to as the beginning of salvation, right? Of course, God has elected predestined, right?

31:30

Us from before the foundation of the world. The problem, uh, the, and this is a very real problem that folks have a hard time, uh, understanding is that God is finite and we are infinite.

31:44

God is timeless, understands, sees, knows all things timelessly, and we, because we are finite, only know things according to time.

31:55

Yeah. So when I, when I make the reference of, uh, the beginning of salvation, I'm talking about the point in time where we as individuals understand our lost condition before God, where we are convicted of our sins and where, where we believe on Jesus Christ.

32:13

So particularly starting there with verse 37, all that the father gives to me will come to me.

32:19

There's an assurance statement there. And Jesus said, the one who comes to me, I will in no wise or no way, uh, or I will never cast out depending on what translation you're reading.

32:31

There says all, all of it says the same thing, but the assurance there is this, that no matter who you are, and I know this statement's abused, right?

32:41

Uh, come, come as you are, right? Yeah. The, the, the, the statement that should always, uh, qualify that statement, come as you are to Christ is come as you are, but understand if you're coming to Christ because Christ called you, you will not leave the same as you came.

33:00

You know, when the blind man, uh, was given his sight, he didn't leave the same when

33:06

Jesus touched his eyes. Yeah. He saw when, when

33:12

Jesus healed the lame man, he walked when Jesus raised the dead, guess what?

33:17

Life came back in their bodies. They were new creatures. Uh, the woman with the issue of blood that came to Jesus, we have the account simultaneously in the gospel where J J Iris, however you want to pronounce his name,

33:30

Yaris J Iris depends on probably where you're from, but however you want to say that the woman who had the blood issue rightly should have been shunned and denied because she was unclean.

33:44

But Jesus said, all that the father gives me will come to me and I will not cast them away.

33:50

What an assurance, what a, what a confidence that this should give to sinful men and women that if you are coming to Christ, he will not cast you out.

34:04

And, but this is why our, this is why our doctrine is so important to understand that you will not come to Christ if you have not been called to Christ, that you cannot come to Christ if you have that, if you haven't been called.

34:20

So there is, there is an assurance. I mean, it, it is, it is as if in plain language, when

34:26

Christ said, come unto me, all you that labor and are heavy laden, that he meant exactly what he said.

34:36

And I think that I, and I'm going to knock on us reformed folks, because I think a lot of reformed folks are like those

34:45

Pharisees of the day where they shut the doors of the kingdom of God up so that nobody can get in and they themselves ain't even going in.

34:55

And I think it's because I, I'm sorry for rambling here, but I think it's,

35:01

I think there's, I think there is a major disconnect in reformed folks because there's a fear of getting over -emotional.

35:13

And then you have the other extreme of being overly intellectual. And folks, this is one of those areas where there has to be that in -between.

35:22

There has to be that come together between the intellect and the emotions where we can rightly understand the work of Christ and we can rightly understand and apply the word of God so that with just because if somebody, somebody gets happy in the

35:42

Lord, right? Somebody rejoices in salvation. Why shouldn't they? Every, every stinking person you see in the scriptures who

35:51

Christ touched, there was a response leaping with joy. Yes, that's exactly right.

35:57

There was many responses. Yeah. So, so I think the beginning of salvation, there's great assurance.

36:05

And in the process of salvation, again, I understand, I know that, yeah,

36:10

I'm not talking about progressive salvation, but I am talking about progressive sanctification. And that's the beauty.

36:17

That's again, another, just in that verse 37, we have that. We have that assurance in progressive sanctification because the

36:25

Holy Spirit resides within the believer. He, he leads us.

36:31

He guides us into all truth and all righteousness. That's why he is referred to as the comforter.

36:40

There's comfort and assurance. And then, and then later on as we go on through this passage, and I do want to add this, that verse 41 through 58,

36:51

Jesus, what we're talking about right here too. So. Yeah, no, absolutely.

36:58

You know, just to circle back on what you were saying too, about seven or eight years ago, we had some friends and we were over at their house for dinner and staunch

37:08

Roman Catholics. He was going to be a priest. She was going to be a nun. And then they met on Catholic mingle, no lie.

37:14

It was, and they were like, oh, let's get married. Right. And they're both uber, uber Catholic. I mean, it's

37:20

Catholic as you can get. And we, you know, and I, my wife kind of side -eyed me like, Hey, be on the way over there, behave tonight.

37:26

You know, they're our friends. And I went, okay, well, after dinner, the husband and I get talking, this verse comes up.

37:34

And we talked for about an hour, went round and round. He's talking about mortal sins and all these things. And at the very end of it,

37:40

I basically said, so you essentially, as a Roman Catholic and your belief, you have no assurance whatsoever.

37:47

You could die in a mortal sin. You could die in a state where God has not forgiven you, or you have not seek penance. And he goes, yeah.

37:53

And I said, well, then you're, you're, you're the same as a Muslim or a Mormon or, and he goes, yeah.

38:00

And it was so sad because he was such a sweet man, loved God, loved the so did his wife yet because of this kind of fear in this, this, this doctrine of.

38:14

There was no assurance. There was, there was no, um, grace really there. And now look at,

38:20

I'm not saying we have grace. We can keep sending. I'm not, of course not. I'm saying, could you imagine like that living a life to where there's absolutely no insurance and you interpret those scriptures as saying,

38:32

I gotta do more. I gotta do better. I gotta get to my priest for confession. I I've got a, you know, and it's, it's absolutely insane because I, and this is off subject, but I saw an interview between Conan O 'Brien,

38:44

Irish Catholic and Jack white from the white stripes, Irish Catholic. And they're just talking about guitar playing and creativity.

38:52

And then they get off on, oh yeah, well, everything we create is horrible because you know, that Irish Catholic upbringing and they were both brought up that way.

39:00

And they're talking for 15 minutes about how they just live with guilt every day and fear and rejection because,

39:07

Hey, that God, you know, God has the piano overhead and he could push that button at any time and drop it on us. And they were doing it comedically, but it was also very sad.

39:15

You saw two very creative people, um, funny, uh, creative, you know, but, but their whole entire life because of this upbringing are living a life of essentially the wrong type of fear of God.

39:28

Like, you know what I mean? Like we can get into that if you want, but there's a difference between being afraid of God and then being afraid of God because you understand who he is fully, right?

39:38

Not just being afraid because we think, oh, there's going to be some type of harm or something bad happened to me, but understanding, you know, having a reverence, a fear of God, because of who he is.

39:49

And yes, we know we could be gone within a millisecond if he chose to. And that's part of that reverence, but also reverencing in the grace and the love and the mercy and, and the forbearance and all those things.

40:00

And the character of God, you know, the beautiful characters of God. Uh, but when you mentioned that about Roman Catholicism, I said, you know, if, if anyone's listening out there that is

40:09

Roman Catholic, um, or has friends that are, um, I would, I would, uh, encourage you to, to read through the scriptures with the eyes of understanding assurance and, and the grace and mercy of God and how it's, uh, it's free.

40:24

It can't be earned. There's nothing good that we have done, uh, to allow us to earn it.

40:29

But, um, you said 41 through 56, if you want to get into that for a few minutes, what does he or 58, what does he unpacking there that you say?

40:39

What were the words you use? You said he's unpacking it. Um, basically exit, you know, he's exegeting what he just said.

40:46

He's explaining what he said. Right. Um, yeah. So can I read that 41 through 58?

40:53

Yeah. Therefore the Jews were grumbling about him because he's just said, everyone who believes in me, let's restart at 40 for this is the will of my father, that everyone who sees the son and believes in him will have eternal life.

41:06

And I myself will raise him up on the last day. Therefore, the Jews were grumbling about him because he said,

41:13

I am the bread that came down from heaven. So here they're continuing, right? They were saying, it's not this

41:19

Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother, we know. How does he say I've come down from heaven?

41:26

Jesus answered, said to them, stop grumbling among yourselves. No one can come to me unless the father who sent me draws him.

41:33

And I will raise him up on the last day. We're reiteration there. It is written in the prophets and they, and, and they shall be taught by God.

41:42

Everyone who has heard and learned from the father comes to me that anyone has seen the father, except the one who is from God.

41:52

He has seen the father. So here we get into a more doctrine,

41:57

Trinity, Trinitarian doctrine. Truly, truly. I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

42:03

I am the bread of life, short statement. Your fathers ate manna in the wilderness and they died.

42:10

This is the bread, which comes down from heaven so that one may eat of it and not die.

42:16

I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever.

42:23

And also the bread, which I will give, I give for the life of the world is my flesh.

42:28

So he, again, he exegetes, he, he explains what the bread that he's talking about is.

42:34

So Jesus said to them, truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in yourselves.

42:42

He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life. And I will raise him up on the last day for my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink.

42:54

He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me and I in him. As the living father sent me and I live because of the father, so he who eats me, he also will live because of me.

43:06

This is the bread which came down out of heaven, not as the fathers ate and died.

43:11

He who eats this bread will live forever. So there you go. The Dead Man Walking Podcast has a gentleman on there who promotes cannibalism, right?

43:23

I mean, look at this is, this is a, for a lot of Christians, they just avoid this whole section.

43:29

They don't like it. It seems funky. It seems weird. I know a lot of Protestants in general, not just, you know, reformed folk or, you know, really the only ones who really get into it, like I said, are

43:41

Catholics and Lutherans, because they've really leaned into that theology. But what are we talking about here?

43:47

Are we just seeing a lot of analogy of Christ? You know, he's given this speech about bread and then he's going, no,

43:53

I'm the bread. I'm the wine. I'm the thing that you should be eating. And, you know, my, my flesh and they're not, they're not understanding.

44:00

I mean, I've got to think that the disciples after looking back on the crucifixion and then also the resurrection going, oh,

44:09

I remember when he said that this is making, you know what I mean? Yeah. They were just guys, right there.

44:14

And they're going, this makes so much sense now. But in this time, it looks like they're, they're almost going, what, how can we eat this guy?

44:20

What is he talking about? They're still confused, right? Yes. Yes. And that's, and that's, again, another thing, another big thing

44:28

I'll say about reading the scripture, right? We, we, we need to understand that's where the intellectual portion of scripture study comes into play.

44:39

You have to be willing or not willing, well, maybe so willing, willing and able to understand when metaphors, figures of speech, analogies, so on and so forth are being used.

44:55

And that's discernment, right? So that's discernment in and of itself. It's, it is absolutely foolish for anybody to assume like earlier in the gospels, when

45:06

Jesus said, it's better for you to go to heaven, halt and maimed than for you to enter into hell, whole and complete.

45:15

Right? So if your hand offends you, cut it off. Okay. Was that literal or metaphorical?

45:22

That's obviously metaphorical hyperbole. That's being used right in exaggerated speech, right?

45:29

It's like calling somebody a stupid idiot. Yeah. Can somebody be both? Yes, they can.

45:35

Yeah. But the hyperbole is used there to communicate the significance and the importance and to reinforce what's being stated there.

45:48

So, but again, that's another thing about scripture, the before and the after of passages, most times, that's why we, you know, the doctrine and I don't think

45:57

Greg, I don't think I'll ever understand why this word is used, perpiscuity, the perpiscuity of scripture.

46:05

Have you heard that? No, that's a new word. I like it though. Yeah. So guess what that means?

46:10

Teach us something on the podcaster. It means the clarity of scripture. Oh, I love it.

46:17

Perpiscuity means clarity. Duh, you wouldn't know that, right?

46:23

No, but the word used for clarity is the most confusing word.

46:30

I mean, it's kind of weird, but scripture really is clear, but it takes time.

46:36

It takes effort. It takes energy. It takes willingness to, to break these things down, to not just take them because when we, when we say we believe that the word of God is literal, it is literal in the literal sense in which it is written, meaning the grammatical sense.

46:56

I mean, that's, that's hermeneutics, right? We, we take the plain reading of the text. Then we take the grammatical reading of the text.

47:04

Then we take the historical reading of the text and we put all those three together and we can make sense of it.

47:10

It's so important that we do that, but you know, to, sorry, you go ahead.

47:17

No, I was, I just wanted to bounce back. I feel like I keep bouncing back one subject because every time you say something, it's, it's, it's so good that it makes me think while you're talking, but I just wanted to agree with you too on the moderation and balance between intellectualism and emotionalism in general, but, but also to even in the reformed community.

47:40

I'm kind of, I'm kind of sick and tired of meeting some of my, my brothers in the

47:47

Lord that are going, well, you can't, I mean, you can't get excited. Uh, don't you know,

47:53

I've read this book there's a, and it goes, if you can't get excited, if you can't weep before the

48:00

Lord, if you can't jump for joy, if you can't praise him, um, I mean, God created emotion.

48:06

We're not supposed to be controlled by them, right? We're not supposed to trust in them, but emotion is, is, is a blessing from the

48:15

Lord that he has given us to feel those things and have those bonds. And I'll tell you what you show me, uh, you know, you show me a brother in the

48:23

Lord that's stiff and, uh, solemn and could never get excited about the grace that he has been given.

48:30

Um, I'll tell you what, we're probably not going to have too many conversations together. Uh, I, I grew, I, you know, when

48:36

I came back to the Lord for the first two years, I was in a predominantly black church with a black pastor. And let me tell you, we praised, okay.

48:43

And there's still a little, a little, that gospel praise in me. All right. Um, I play the keys,

48:48

I play the drums. I'll go into a praise break in my worship room with the Lord if I have to, because of what he's done for me and how he saved me.

48:55

And if you can't get excited about that, or if you can't weep before the Lord over your sin and understand how it affects him, then, uh, yeah, yeah.

49:05

I don't, I don't want to go as far as say, I can't trust you, but I would say you're misguided my friend. Um, the

49:11

Lord has given us those emotions now in balance. I'm not talking about the, you know, we're not going to go mean,

49:16

Claude aren't flying out to Bethel and we're not going to start barking like dogs and grave soaking and doing summer songs. And right.

49:23

Uh, that's no, that's out of balance as well. Right. When we're strictly talking emotional electionalism, but I believe emotions are such a beautiful thing and to be able to experience those things.

49:36

And look at, if you're a married man, you need to deal with your emotions properly and your wives, who is an emotional creature.

49:43

Uh, so I would say, yeah, get used to using them, not letting them control you, not listening to them or trusting in them.

49:50

Jeremiah tells us what our heart does, right. It's very wicked and it can't be trusted. But, um,

49:55

I, I just wanted to put a pin on that and say, uh, you know, I totally agree with what you said.

50:00

I, I, you, we could do a whole episode on just the balance between emotion and intellect and making sure we're in moderation.

50:07

The older I get, Claude, tell me what you think about this. The older I get, I see that balance in moderation tends to trends me towards godliness.

50:19

Um, I feel there's a lot of good things that God has given us. He gives us sharp objects to play with as, uh,

50:27

I think it's either Doug Wilson or Toby, uh, Sumter has said before. And I love that analogy. He gives us sharp objects to play with, handle them carefully.

50:35

I don't get my nine year old a knife and say, Oh, here you go, flip it around and do it. You're going to cut yourself, handle it with care, know its limitations, know how to use it.

50:44

Those are things like tobacco and alcohol and love and all these, you know, all these things in the world, a speech and right.

50:51

We handle them with care. And, uh, and, and boy, I've noticed in my life in moderation, many good things are abused out of moderation.

51:01

And even, even, and I'm rambling here, I'll finish this up, but I've noticed that even doctors are understanding that in moderation, you know,

51:09

Oh, sugar's bad. Oh no, wait a minute now. Uh, you know, real butter's bad. Oh no, wait a minute. And doctors are realizing in moderation, most things are okay for you.

51:18

Yeah. Just don't eat 400 grams of sugar a day. Just don't fry everything in butter.

51:24

That's my hardest one. I'm a butter lover. I do love my butter. Uh, you write like moderation. We've seen nutritionists, even from a health standpoint are going things in moderation.

51:34

Generally, the Lord has provided all these things in the world for us. And if done in moderation with restraint, with self -control, hello, right.

51:42

This is Mike on proverbs control. It's like a city without any walls. This goes for loss.

51:47

It goes for food. This goes for all these things. So we take the godly principles that he's laid out for us in the book and then go look at all these beautiful things that he's given us.

51:56

Look at all these, uh, uh, tasty morsels, even in the food world that we get right.

52:01

But moderation. And I just wanted to agree with you on that. You brought up such a good point, um, on making sure it's in balance and the dividing line is the word of God and all our actions and all things that we do, you know, didn't really have anything to do with those set of verses you just read, but, uh, got, got me fired up when you said that.

52:19

I love when guys like you come on and say stuff like that, because for me, it's like,

52:25

Oh, I'm not the only one out there saying it. Yeah. If you really think about it, you don't hear too many preachers talking about that balance between the two.

52:33

Um, you know, they'll, they'll give a quick little something. Some of our, you know, uh, famous preachers that have platforms that we like, they'll go,

52:41

Oh, well make sure you don't get too, but man, I tell you what you could do. You could do a six week, eight week, 12 week series on making sure those two are in alignment and in balance.

52:51

Cause I really think we can be driven incorrectly by both of either one's out of balance. That's exactly right.

52:57

And balance is key in everything, right? It doesn't matter what it is. Balance is key.

53:03

And I will, I will add a closing statement to that. Let me scoot you up to the mic. If you can't get excited about your salvation, get excited about Greg's salvation.

53:14

If you can't get excited about Greg's salvation, get excited about mine. Amen. Let's go.

53:21

Oh man, I need my drops. I need my, uh, my, my church organ drops. You're about to preach. I was getting ready to play the organ while you were talking there a minute ago.

53:29

Oh, I like it. Yeah. Oh, I love it.

53:41

Now. Are you, is that a sound drop? Are you playing that? Oh no, dude.

53:46

I can't, I can't. Oh no. Yeah. Sound drops. Yeah. The way you were kind of moving.

53:52

It made me look like on the road. I wasn't playing the keys. I was playing the keys, but I was just feeling it listening for the notes.

54:02

Oh man. All right. Let's wrap this up, man. The hour just flew by talking to you. I love having, I love talking to you and having you on Claude.

54:09

Um, so give us some final thoughts on, on this passage. I mean, we went all over the place. I think we stuck to the text for, for a pretty good amount.

54:17

Um, obviously got off in some tangents and some other stuff, but so John six, uh, 26 basically covered through 57.

54:24

What's your final thoughts on that? If someone's listening and hasn't really visited that or says, you know,

54:29

I heard this and now I want to go revisit it. Um, or has never even heard maybe what, what would you tell them about this chunk of scripture here?

54:38

This chunk of scripture is best understood by another chunk of scripture. And I'll be honest,

54:44

I'll be honest. Um, I mean, yeah, my, my words don't go very far, but like, uh,

54:51

Paul wrote me, I believe it's in Romans 15 for these things were written a four time for our learning that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

55:00

I think considering, uh, of course, Jesus being the bread of life, that is the, that's eternal life.

55:07

We have, we talked about assurance of salvation. And then that last verse in 40, uh, uh, the last part of the section that you read there down to 40, you know, uh, he, all that the father gives him, he will lose none.

55:22

He keeps them. And I think this is exemplified in John's gospel in the great high priestly prayer

55:29

Christ. So Christ said this, uh, we have the transcript of the prayer cross parade in the garden in John 17,

55:38

Jesus spoke these things and lifting up his eyes to heaven. He said, father, the hours come glorify your son, that the son may glorify you.

55:47

Even as you have given him authority over all flesh that to all whom you have given him, he may give eternal life.

55:56

And this is eternal life that they may know you, the only true

56:01

God in Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. I glorified you on the earth, having finished the work with which you gave me to do now, father, glorify me together with yourself and with the glory, which

56:14

I had before you, before the world was, I've manifested your name to the men whom you gave me out of the world.

56:22

Speaking of the disciples, they were yours and you gave them to me and have kept your word.

56:28

Now they have come to know that everything you have given me is from you for the words, which you gave me,

56:36

I've given to them and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from you.

56:42

And they believed that you sent me. I ask on their behalf. I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom you have given me for, they are yours and all things that are mine are yours and yours is mine.

56:58

And I've been glorified in them and I'm no longer in the world yet.

57:04

They themselves are in the world. And I come to you, holy father, keep them in your name, the name, which you have given me that they may be one, even as we are.

57:15

While I was with them, I was keeping them in your name, which you have given me. And I guarded them and not one of them perished, but the son of perdition so that the scripture would be fulfilled.

57:29

But now I come to you and these things I speak in the world so that they may have my joy made full in themselves.

57:38

I've given them your word and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, even as I'm not of the world.

57:45

I do not ask you to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one.

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They are not of the world, even as I'm not of the world, sanctify them by the truth.

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Your word is truth. As you sent me into the world, I also sent them into the world for their sake.

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I sanctify myself that they themselves also may be sanctified in the truth.

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I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those who believe in me through their word, that's us.

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But they may all be one, even as you father are in me and I in you, and that they also may be in us so that the world may believe that you sent me.

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The glory, which you have given me, I've given to them that they may be one, just as we are one,

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I in them and you in me, that they may be perfected in unity so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them, even as you have loved me.

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Father, I desire that they also, whom you've given me, be with me where I am so that they may see my glory, which you have given me, for you loved me before the foundation of the world.

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Oh, righteous father, although the world has not known you, yet I have known you.

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I have made, I'm sorry, you and these have known that you sent me and I've made your name known to them and will make it known so that the love with which you loved me may be in them and I in them.

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You see how that pulled everything together there? That's beautiful. That's Christ.

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Is there a better representation of the faith, the Christian faith, than what you just read? I would say not.

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You'd be hard -pressed. And just the reflection there of him saying, just as you've loved me, just as you've given me, glorification, you have also given it to them.

01:00:03

What a humbling thing for our Savior to even put us in the same category as himself and saying that's how

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God sees us and looks at us. Absolutely beautiful. Claude, I appreciate you, brother.

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I love you, brother. I'm excited to see you early next year, hopefully.

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And I love when you come on and just pour into us and talk about the word and really uplift us, build us up.

01:00:38

We're going to make sure that we put all Claude's stuff where you can get ahold of him. We'll link it up.

01:00:44

I do want you guys, if you subscribe to this podcast, make sure you go listen to Hear I Stand Theology podcast.

01:00:51

That's Claude on there doing what Claude does, loving the Lord, being humble, and hopefully reflecting the glory of God, which

01:00:58

I know he does. Claude, thanks so much for coming on. And guys, thank you so much for listening to another episode of Dead Man Walking Podcast.

01:01:07

As always, you can find us at dmwpodcast .com. Check us out there. And we're on all the socials at Dead Man Walking Podcast as well, too.

01:01:14

We'd love to hear from you. As always, remember the chief end of man is to glorify God and enjoy him forever.

01:01:19

God bless. Be sure to follow us on Facebook and Instagram at dead men walking podcast for full video podcast episodes and clips or email us at dead men walking podcast at gmail .com