Jay Michaelson's "God vs. Gay"

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona, this is the Dividing Line.

The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us, yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence.

Our host is Dr. James White, director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.

This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with Dr. White, call now at 602 -973 -4602, or toll free across the

United States, it's 1 -877 -753 -3341. And now with today's topic, here is

James White. So I didn't even blog the last Dividing Line, that's great, nice to know as I'm going on.

Maybe someone out there who has access to the blog might be able to get that done even during the program, rather than just waiting for me to do it, because then we'd be behind even farther than that.

So a nice thing about the blog is you can pretend that we actually blogged it a few days ago, just put a different date in, yesterday on the

Dividing Line, and then just make it look like it actually appeared then, sort of rewrite history. Nothing to see here, move along.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, we'll get that fixed, we'll get that fixed, yes. Of course, if you subscribed to the iTunes feed, then all would be well.

And of course, the name of the file is always the same, so it's easy to get a hold of. But anyways, for people like Red Goatee, who struggles with all those things, we need to post these things so he can listen.

And we need to help all of our listeners, no matter where they are in the order of capabilities.

Anyways, good to be with you today on a beautiful, cool day, cool day here in Phoenix.

My heat turned on this morning. Some of you are going, my heat's been running for months. Well, not around here, and it was about 40 degrees this morning, and I'm sorry, 65, 65 degrees, yeah.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, my family's used to it. I figure you live in the desert, that heat stuff,

I think the one in my office here is set to 63. Yeah, that's why you always have something down here to wear.

I noticed it was much warmer on your end of the office today. Anyways, good to be with you today.

Got a number of things to look at, but might be taking phone calls as well. Depends on how far we get into some of some of the things we're looking at.

I almost, I mean, I was tempted briefly. Yesterday morning, I went out for an early morning ride because I wanted to ride in the cold.

Believe it or not, actually, someone, a good, good friend out there in the listening audience had provided me with a pair of super duper waterproof, windproof winter riding tights, and I wanted to test them out.

And so I wanted to go at the coldest time of the day. So I was out there in the dark yesterday morning and it got down to thirty five point nine, which some of you in colder climes are laughing because that's your high.

But when you live in the Sonoran Desert, thirty five point nine is pretty cool, especially when you're on a bike and you're like going down a hill at thirty miles an hour.

You throw in the windchill and that's that's moving. It's that's pretty cool. Anyways, I was listening to a book. Michael Brown had directed me to and we'll get to that in a moment.

That's the first thing we do is we're going to look at that. And then we've got some stuff from David Wood's trip over to the UK and some of his debates.

And man, there was a nasty MDI article. I need to bring that up when

I start playing something else. But just just very quickly, a great thanks to everyone who has been standing with us during this.

What do we call this? The the the Web store outage, the

Web store outage time are many thanks to everyone who has been standing with us during that particular point in time.

And it's very, very helpful to to keep things going, keep the lights on. And I was just getting a report on how things are going.

And we can tell everyone it's going to be worth it. Can't wait. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. It's going to be worth it.

The cards could be a lot nicer. The Web stores could be a lot nicer. The blog is going to be allegedly, I've been told, haven't gotten here yet.

But the blog is going to be easier for me to use, which might encourage me to blog more if I'm not having to use that rather nasty

Nucleus Web interface that I've been using for many years now. So, you know, yeah, hopefully

January one, we can go nuclear on Nucleus. Oh, cool. OK, good, good. So that's that's a good thing.

Unfortunately, everybody in in channel is now talking about my having mentioned wearing tights.

You know, when you ride a when you ride a ride a bike, you know, do you remember?

Remember Bell Bottoms? Remember Bell Bottoms back in the. You try not to. We are definitely dating.

I wore those in junior high. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I know. I know. I know. They looked, hey, the hair, the glasses.

It was all the there was all the rage, man. It was it was great. But you remember, even regular pants, if you ever rode a bike with them, what happened?

Got caught in the chain. I got caught in the chain. So you've got, you know, if you're going to ride a bike and I'm I'm working toward, you know, the end of the year here and I do a lot of riding, you got to do that kind of thing.

It's just how it is. But anyways, thanks to everyone who has helped us to get through all of that stuff.

I will mention that I've thrown a few items on the ministry resource list.

If you've been if you've just been itching to do something, the ministry resource list, there's an item on the blog right now that gives you direction to that.

We started that, I think that's at least three years ago, maybe four. I've lost three or four, three or four years ago.

That ministry resource list has been incredibly, incredibly encouraging to me.

And since I mentioned it, the Muslim Debate Initiative blog, let me read this to you. This is, just read a section of this.

This is from Sadat Bin Anwar, MDI Canada.

I'm not, haven't met the gentleman or if I have, I wasn't aware of it.

I was expecting the Answering Muslims team to be slightly peeved over David Wood's mediocre and dispiriting performance at Speaker's Corner in London's Hyde Park a few days ago.

Admittedly, Wood's not so pleasant reception by the Hyde Park Muslims and MDI member

Paul Williams in particular, was not exactly helpful to him winning any Islamophobic brownie points with the larger audience that was present.

But since when was Speaker's Corner been anything about more than a shouting match? Well, there is an interesting admission.

Certainly doesn't make me have much of an interest in getting into such situations because I, I don't know,

I happen to actually respect both sides more than just getting into shouting matches. But anyway, debates at this extraordinary and unique venue have been won and lost on the merits of one's vocal cords, charisma, megaphone amplification capability, witty one -liners, ability to deal with unruly hecklers and even well -timed jokes.

I think that's a way of saying truth is fairly irrelevant here. Moreover, Wood was not lecturing. Now, this is interesting.

Check this out. Wood was not lecturing a group of evangelicals in Texas. This was London, England. And everyone knows that British Muslims are not the soft and pushover

American Muslims that David Wood and his ilk are used to dealing with back home. Wow, I thought this guy was from Canada.

And I mean, from from the world, most world's perspective, the Canadians aren't exactly, you know,

I mean, other than the Mounties, you know, and a few hockey players, they're just too cold to do much else.

So anyway, repeatedly and rather mercilessly heckled into the ground by questions about God commanding the killing of babies in the

Bible. Wood's usual demagoguery and lines of attack against Islam and Muslims presently on a free, loose, and the more congenial

American climate met a premature dead end of Speaker's Corner. And the usual hot air we are accustomed to watching dead wood blow evaporate rather quickly into the crisp

London air. I actually wrote to Dave and I said, dude, what's what's what's the real story?

You know, because I've I've seen when I see Muslims saying now they're Ahmed clean the floor with me.

I'm not really quick at accepting and accepting that particular perspective. And so he said that this is really weird.

That's not weird. This this is just so illustrative of the reality of the

Paul Williams saga. You know, Paul Williams wants to present the air that he's he's so scholarly and he's just so accustomed to the rarefied air of British intelligentsia that he just doesn't want to do this fundamentalist like James White.

Now, such a backwards view of scripture, you know, and but for some reason, after doing two debates with Chris Green, who likewise pretty much has the same view of scripture that I do, he's at Speaker's Corner.

Now, what are you doing at Speaker's Corner, Paul? And according to David, he comes right up front and stands there yelling at David the whole time he's trying to speak.

Why did your God command the killing of babies in the Bible? Why did you just over and over and over?

There's there's Paul Williams. There's the man who doesn't want to debate James White because he doesn't have a standing in the scholarly community standing there at Speaker's Corner, acting like an insane nutcase tells me that Paul Williams won't debate me, not because of my views, because he knows he can't.

He knows he can't. He knows he would lose and he would lose badly in front of his constituency and everybody knows it and he knows it as well.

So I'm according to David. He's got some video and I can't wait to see this video. I want to see. I want to see this video.

It could be very, very, very interesting to catch that.

But I did find this article, you know, if if something like this appeared on one of our websites, you'd hear you'd hear about it forever.

Oh, you are a bunch of Islamophobes. I guess is is Sadat a Christophobe then?

I mean, if we're going to be fair, anyway, I don't know.

So yesterday, as I said, I'm out riding about and I'm listening.

I was talking with my I was actually communicating with Michael Brown and he was in India and we're working on this stuff.

I hope you all are excited about this. February 14th through the 16th in Charlotte, North Carolina.

I'm also talking with folks at RTS. So we're going to do something on Islam at RTS Charlotte campus.

But Michael and I are going to be teaming up to debate some Muslims and then Michael and I are going to be debating each other.

Finally on the doctrine of election and it's coming up in February. So everybody's been waiting for this and I think it's really cool that we're going to be teaming up.

I guess the debate is going to be backwards. I would rather do the debate together first and then do the debate election afterwards, but it's going to be reversed.

So we're going to debate election first and then debate the Muslims second. So I think the debate on election will be the 14th and debate with Muslims on the 16th, but we're still working on it's coming together.

And so we've haven't been communicating about stuff like that. And so I had written to him and asked him if he had any interaction with Justin Lee who wrote the book

Torn, which I'm going to be making some comments on. I don't have it up right now.

It's going to be hard to get to. In fact, let me mention this now. I know this is really scattered dividing line.

Sorry, but there's so much stuff going on. The dividing line is now on grandpa watch.

Okay, I'm just I am I am announcing it right now. The dividing line is on grandpa watch.

My daughter is ready to deliver at any moment. And in fact, I should start bringing my phone into the office because she's ready and she wants to and she's 39 weeks.

So it's anytime ready to go and we're all just waiting to to greet

Clementine to the this this part of the world. She's already last night.

My wife was reading her stories. It's Barnes and Noble and we

I'm in the wrong business, by the way. My books only like 10 or 11 or 12 bucks, you know, months worth of work, hundreds of footnotes, 300 pages long.

Dr. Seuss books cost more than mine do. Oh my goodness. And my wife found a book called the bad kitty

Christmas and it was 16 bucks for like 14 pages.

It's like a buck a page. I'm in the wrong business, man. I mean talk about work intensiveness, you know, this is this is all wrong.

But anyways, so we are on grandpa watch. So if you tune in, which is a silly word to use because no one tunes in anymore, you you hook up or whatever it is.

But if you tune in and and I'm and we ain't here or it's just the way back machine is just way backing continuously.

That's because I'm sort of busy and you know, I I don't I won't be here.

So we're looking forward to that and it's going to be exciting, but I'm just just just announcing that for you. Just so you know, that's that's that's going to be going on.

So anyway, I I want to do a review of Justin Lee's torn.

I think it's I think it is an awesome example of the flood absolute flood of pro quote gay

Christian closed quote literature books articles, but especially books just flowing.

I remember back when Jeff Neal and I wrote the same sex controversy.

We were amazed at how many books had come out on home pushing homosexuality back then.

It has just continued to grow and grow and grow. And there is just a flood and so I had written to Michael.

I said, hey, have you had any interaction with Justin Lee because they're in the same general area?

And it sounded like from reading the book that Justin Lee would be someone that Michael would be would be

I think of the two of us. Michael would probably be the better of the two of us to interact with him.

I mean, I have full confidence in in Michaels ability to deal with all issues relating to homosexuality.

His book is still the standard. And I hope I hope if you're looking for a book to give to folks that you'll go to our

Amazon store and buy folks a queer thing happened to America because it still is very, very, very important.

Amazon. AOMN .org. Okay. Thank you very much. And so we were just talking about that and he wrote back and and he said,

Oh, there's so many books coming out right now and he sent me links to some others that I had not seen. And one of which is titled

God vs. Gay God vs. Gay.

And so I I took the time to to grab it and I hooked it up to the

MacBook Pro the night before last and started recording. And so on that cold weather ride on Monday morning,

I started listening to this book. I'm I'm halfway through, so I should finish it up on a ride tomorrow,

Lord willing. But I again, for those that are new to the program, I do a lot of my studying on the back of a bike or on a rower these days.

And it's weird how my mind works. It I index books by where I was.

And in fact, when I go back and read the book, the ride starts playing through my mind. Oh, I listen to this when

I was turning this corner at this point. And especially climbing and descending. I'm not sure why that is being on the flats.

Not so much because maybe it's not so, you know, memorable. But I was there's some really steep hills.

People say Phoenix. You got. Yeah, it's called the Valley of the Sun. And I was climbing.

There's this neighborhood over in a particular area. I guess I shouldn't really say. And I mean, there's some ten to as high as 18 percent grades.

And they're not super long, but they will get your heart rate all the way up there. Well, I was coming down a particularly steep grade when

I heard this one section of this book. And I keep laughingly saying

I almost crashed because what I was hearing. But I almost crashed because what I was hearing, I really did.

It was you've got to be kidding me. And I almost came back and said,

Rich, we need to do a dividing line today. We got one tomorrow morning. So we'll, you know, we'll live.

We'll we'll push through and we'll make it. So I have this material in the book in front of me.

Let me give you some background here. This called God versus Gay, the

Religious Case for Equality. Queer Action slash Queer Ideas. He actually promotes the idea that one of the best terms we could use is queer.

Do you remember when Queer Nation showed up in Salt Lake City? Oh, yeah. That was what about a one or two somewhere.

It was right toward the end of when we were doing stuff. It's too long ago for you to remember. I understand you're you're well into your 50s now.

I'm just about to get there next week. I'm positive it was in the 90s. It was really mid 90s.

Really? Yeah. In fact, it would have to be before. It was before that. It would have to be before 95.

Really? Yeah. Because a certain someone was with us and. Oh, so you're. Oh, OK.

OK. So you don't want to go any farther than that. OK. All right. Well, anyway, Queer Nation showed up at the

General Conference of Mormon Church years and years, years ago. And back then, queer. Man, that would be like using the

N word or something. But they used it of themselves as a means of attracting attention. Remember the guy who made up the

Mormon missionary badge in rainbow colors? No. Yeah. He was dressed up like a

Mormon missionary. But his badge, he had him in the six colors of the gay rainbow.

Oh. And that that was interesting. And they were they actually had this little march down.

Yeah. I remember that. On the south end of the temple, which really didn't amount to a whole lot of people.

No, no, no, no, no. They were extravagant enough. We'll put it that way. Oh, they certainly drew attention.

Draw some attention. Yeah, they did. No question about it. Well, anyway, he actually suggests now that queer is the best word to use.

And I found that very, very strange. This fellow is a is a is

Jewish. With a master's degree in New Testament. OK.

Raised in a conservative Jewish home with a master's degree in in New Testament.

And so he is a real grab bag when it comes to Buddhist spirituality and Hindu spirituality.

And and just all sorts of stuff. OK. So this is just your your general really mixed up religious perspective.

OK. But the argument basically is.

That's the the the big text, the bad text, as he calls them.

Are ambiguous and unclear and can be read in multiple ways. And therefore, we should go with more important priorities.

And the greatest priority of the scriptures, whether it's the Old Testament or New Testament or any other scriptures.

Is that we are to love God and love ourselves. And therefore, equality and promoting equality and acceptance of of homosexuals.

Of course, he is the term gays or queers. That this is in line with the greater priorities, no matter what you're reading of the ambiguous texts are.

And it seems like there is a real agenda. It seems like these folks are communicating with one another.

And there is a particular drumbeat that is appearing in these books promoting gay

Christianity. It is a drumbeat that taps into the emergent stuff.

It's not surprising. The emergent people are all becoming affirming of homosexuality and all the rest, that kind of stuff.

And it's hard for me to not believe that there is not communication between these folks.

So as to say, this is what we need to be pushing right now. This is what we need to be emphasizing right now.

And so many of the themes. One of the themes that clearly has to have been communicated at their meetings and things like that.

Is we need to blast the ex -gay movement.

They've always hated the ex -gay movement. Because anyone who comes out of the movement is a repudiation of their primary argument.

Which means, which is, there can be no change. One thing is for certain.

While there was a recoiling from the look for the gay gene thing for a while. Because then maybe something could be fixed.

Now the idea is, no. We are born this way. This is what we are.

And it can not be changed. And so the vitriol. The hatred.

Expressed toward anyone who says, I once was and I'm not anymore. The message of both torn and God versus gay is, if you're gay, you always will be.

If you have same -sex attractions, you always will have same -sex attractions. Period. End of discussion.

Give up the fight. You cannot do anything about it. It is, and now evidently, instead of looking for the gay gene, because they haven't found one.

Now what they're saying is, well, you see, during development. Exposure to certain levels of hormones.

And other chemicals. Cause lesbians brains to look like male brains.

And homosexuals, male homosexual brains to look like female brains. And certain parts of the brain.

Now, this guy, and I'm sorry, I guess I'm just going to have to go back to the start here.

Even though. Yeah. J. Michelson. I'm sorry. J. Michelson is the name.

Michelson doesn't. Say this one. The one thing that was helpful about Justin Lee's book.

Is that, for example, when he raised the same issues. He said now.

It's possible. That the differences in cat scans of the brains of individuals is due to how they have lived.

Rather than being the reason of why they act the way they do. In other words, if a man.

Has constant fantasies about other men. And then acts out on them or even doesn't.

But just has those constant fantasies. That can actually change the brain. And change how the person speaks and behaves.

And the very fact there is such a thing that we jokingly call gaydar. But we all know it works. Where you can.

You know. It's really easy. If you want to know that if you have a functioning gaydar set. You watch project runway.

And if it blows up. Then you have a functioning gaydar set.

And you can tell. We all know that there is a. That there are certain characteristics to especially.

Wildly flamboyant homosexuals. And but the question is. Is the function.

Is that the result of the brain being made a certain way in development. Or is it the other way around.

Is it because a person thinks and acts that way that it impacts the brain. Because we know that certain behaviors.

Can change the way that the brain. The size of the brain and size of certain portions of brain activity.

In the brain etc. etc. etc. Just look at a cat scan of a grandmaster chess player.

Versus a linebacker in the NFL. Okay this could be differences. And it's because they do different things.

And so Justin. Acknowledge that Michaelson did not. But anyways that's a.

That's neither here nor there at the moment. By the time I get to this section. And this is page 21.

All right so not not very far in. It's not a long book. So it's about an eighth of the way into the book.

By an eighth of the way into the book. I look.

At this point I'm getting the theme. The theme is equality. The theme is love.

The theme is loving God. Okay and. That coming out.

Is actually an expression of your love for God and yourself. And all the rest of this stuff.

And so I understand what he's doing. He's creating an interpretive grid.

Outside of actually looking at the text. And then he's going to use that interpretive grid. To change what the text actually mean.

Nothing new about this. But unfortunately for many many. Many many many many people.

In the evangelical community. They are susceptible to this kind of argumentation. Because it tugs at the heart strings.

And folks let me tell you something. We only have ourselves to blame for this. We only have ourselves to blame for this.

Yes the society. We don't think logically. We don't teach our children logical thought.

We don't model for them. Having a respect for clear thought.

And consistent thinking. Because hey if you're just an animal. Who cares whether you think clearly or not. You know go with the emotions anyways.

But one thing I will lay at the foot of many a church. Is that we succumb to this.

And we model the idea of an emotional approach to things. By the way we worship.

But don't get me wrong. I recognize that man has a emotional aspect to him.

But I really appreciate it. We have a user. Is he in channel right now? I do not.

Yep he's not opt up. But I will opt him up so people in channel know. Who we are talking about.

We have a user in channel. He's pretty quiet. Has a wildly crazy sense of humor.

Former Roman Catholic. Used to really dislike me when he was. And then the Lord was gracious to him.

And I saw him say something yesterday. Somebody had come in channel and said something along the lines of.

I think Vicky Ann and he were talking about this phrase. Relationship with Jesus.

And how that can be really abused. Outside of biblical parameters. And they were talking about how.

Yes we're made as emotional creatures. Emotions are part of things. But they're only a part of us.

And they are not to rule us. And I love what he said.

I didn't jump in to comment on it. But I love what he said. I'm going to have to paraphrase here. But what he said was.

I get emotional in worship too. But my emotions are peace and joy.

And patience. And they don't just come flowing out in behaviors.

And that is. I think that is a sign of Christian maturity. I really, really, really do.

But look. Many, many evangelical churches have bought into the idea. That you've got to get everybody happy clappy.

And get their emotions revved up. And get the battery going.

To just keep them going through the sermon. Let alone anything else.

Just to make it through. They're not going to listen to your sermon. Unless you've revved them up. With the emotions.

And so should we be overly surprised. When the opponents of the faith.

Use the same kind of methodology. And tap into the emotion. And hence provide an effective apologetic.

Because that's what our folks are used to too. That's how we do it at church. They don't even recognize when it's happening.

Don't even recognize when it's happening. So I knew it was coming.

I knew how this worked. But I want to read you a portion of this book.

I want to read you a portion of this book. Starting on page.

Let me look here. Let's back up here.

He's actually giving you some stuff that he had spoken. After he had come out. Let me back up here.

Alright. And I was told by my rabbis. That sexual orientation was a lifestyle choice. That if I wanted to I could be straight.

Or at least celibate. I knew. This I knew was false. Because if I could have done anything.

Anything to stop being gay. I would have. I hated being gay. And I tried everything. Abstinence.

Negative reinforcement. Fantasizing about women. I was even in a loving relationship with a woman for over a year. Trying all the while to be straight.

I tried immersing myself in Ahavat Hashem. The love of God.

Hebrew of course. He's raised as a Jew. Focused only on Torah and learning.

Sublimating my sexual tension. I was a kovesh at Yitzro. One who mastered his inclination.

And I was miserable. What do you wish for when you blow out your birthday candles?

I wished only to be straight. What do you pray for when you pray to God? I prayed to God for 10 years. The broken heart.

Which our tradition teaches is the purest prayer there is. To make me straight. Now this is.

This is the. This is what you get in Torn.

This is what you get in this. This is part of this new wave of argumentation.

And this is why the emergent folks. And Rachel Held Evans and people like that just collapse. In light of this.

Because they have no foundation to stand against it. There's no touchstone. You cannot question someone's experience.

That is absolute orthodoxy in our society now. Experience trumps all things. Unless it's

Christian experience. Unless it's actually in line with scripture. Then it's irrelevant. You cannot change your sexual orientation.

You cannot. I tried. You cannot. The worst is what it did to my

Ahavat Hashem. My love for God. Why would God make me this way? How could I be so evil? I couldn't make sense of it.

One thing I know. And I know other people have other opinions. But in my experience. From 10 years of what

I have lived. It is impossible to love God in denial. You hate yourself. You hate

God for doing this to you. And you see the world is fundamentally irreparably broken. I pause for a moment.

It is. That's one of the problems here. It is. All this.

When we could read Leviticus narrowly. Only one kind of sex. Only between men.

Maybe only in the context of Avodah Zarah. Idolatry. You know.

We have halakhat laws. That construe some mitzvot. Commandments. Narrowly.

Simply to avoid ordinary unpleasantness. Yet here we are causing some people to kill themselves.

Catch that? This is another of the drumbeats now. The drumbeats now. If you. I didn't bring up the email.

But you saw it. We had an email sent in. What? About two weeks ago? About two weeks ago. Your kind of anti -gay rhetoric is what causes kids to kill themselves.

That's the new thing now. If you say anything against homosexuality.

You are causing people to kill themselves. Which obviously means if you say anything against pederasty.

Bestiality. Incest. Murder. Robbery. If you make any moral stand.

And if someone feels bad about that. Then you're responsible.

That is the voice of anarchy. It's the voice of anarchy. Anyway. Yet here we are causing some people to kill themselves.

To hate themselves. And to turn themselves away from God. For one particular interpretation of two verses.

Can this possibly be the right reading? Is this really the truth? That some people should be shut off from Hashem.

And enclosed in self -hatred. The Talmudic sages knew many things that I do not know.

But they didn't know about sexual orientation. Yeah. There's another theme. People back then didn't understand what we understand today.

That's baloney. They did know. It is a constantly repeated statement.

But they did know. It's a very new category. 200 years at the most. They didn't know this truth.

That because of the way some of us are. Intrinsically. That this kind of love is the only way we can love.

And thus the only path to fully knowing and loving God. Now folks. There is another theme.

Loving is the greatest good. No matter how you do it or what you love.

As long as you love. Now you do realize what this would open the door to.

This is the argument of pederasty. This is the argument of incest. This is the argument of bestiality.

These people say they were born that way. These folks have no defense against that. And the only thing they can say is.

Well that's not real love. Well that's awfully bigoted of you. That's obviously bigoted of you.

Today when I grow closer to God. I grow closer to accepting who I am. I return to the reality of God in this moment.

In this place. And I remember that God made me perfectly. And that loving a man is a pathway to loving Hashem. Particular love to universal love.

That is my fundamental truth. And it is beautiful. And it is holy. Even if it sometimes is laced with tears.

And that was what he had presented. And you see why the emergent folks collapse at this.

Just. Because it's all gooey. And just so love, love, love.

And remember. Biblical love is defined by God himself. It's objects.

It's purposes. And it's necessity. And our society has no basis for defining love anymore.

It's just something you feel. Everybody's just got to do it. Just got to love. That's all there is to it.

And here's the part that I wanted to do a whole program on. And I'm just now getting to it. I am different now from how

I was years ago. I no longer wish to be anything other than who I am. And I'm grateful that I've been able to find love.

Both human and divine. Precisely by accepting rather than rejecting the traits of my personality and soul. Yet as I work with people still struggling with their sexuality,

I am struck by how similar their stories are to mine. So many people believe that to come out, to accept one's sexuality, and be open about it with others, would be the end of their religious lives.

Just as I once believed. They cannot conceive, as I could not, that coming out is the beginning of the authentic spiritual life.

Not the end of it. Once I was honest with myself, I could be honest with God. Once I started loving myself,

I could start loving God. And once I allowed my heart to open, it opened in all directions. And so here is the very theory that is being presented.

The very theory is that to love God, you have to love yourself.

To love yourself means you give in to the lusts and desires that are yours. For the homosexual anyways.

You give in to those lusts and desires. For the quote -unquote transgendered person, you give in to the feeling that you're the wrong gender.

Now obviously, logically, rationally, for the intergenerational lover, it's giving in to that's who you are.

For the interspecies lover, it's giving in to what you are. For the interfamilial lover, it's giving in to what you are.

I guess these are all the ways that you become a lover of God. It's never by looking at what

God's law is. It's never by putting yourself in line with God's law. No, no, it is giving in to your desires.

Not mortifying them. Not crucifying them. But giving in to them.

That's what it's all about. But then, and this was,

I can tell you exactly what road I was on. Because this is a road I have to be careful on. It's very steep going down and there are lots of rabbits around.

And I've always thought, are rabbits going to take me out someday? Rabbits could take me. And there were like three rabbits on the road.

So that's what the connection was. Listen to this. Listen to this.

Ready? This is page 21. This is how I as a

Jew understand Paul's statement. Remember, he's just talked about coming out. Okay?

Once I start loving myself, I can start loving God. And once I allow my heart to open, it opened all directions. This is how I as a

Jew understand Paul's statement in Romans 8, 38 -39. And here's the exact quote as it appears.

For I am sure that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation will be able to separate us from the love of God.

Period. Close quote. To believe that God hates you if you're gay is to make a mistake about God's love.

To think that it is conditional on something, that you're only okay if you act a certain way, this is not so.

The love that the mystics, poets, and prophets describe flows unconditionally. And though it may take enormous faith to believe it,

I have found that such faith is rewarded. God's love does not depend on anything.

Did you hear that? Did you hear that? I hope you caught two fundamental things there.

Two fundamental things that are absolutely amazing. First of all, it was a misquotation of the text.

First of all, it was a misquotation of the text. Hopefully you caught it. Because here's what it actually says.

For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our

Lord. That last phrase is cut off. And by cutting it off,

Mr. Michelson absolutely twists and destroys and defames and degrades the entire statement that the

Apostle Paul provides in this text. Now you might say, well, he's

Jewish. What would you expect him to do? So was

Paul. And Paul's statement has no meaning in its context when you take that last phrase out.

Why is it that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing will be able to separate us from the love of God?

Because it is in Christ Jesus our Lord. It has been made real.

The incarnation, death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ has proven the love of God.

God's love has taken on human form. That's what gives the text meaning.

So the first thing, the first thing that caught my mind was by cutting off the very last phrase, which defines the very realm of this love of God that is being defined, is being presented by Paul, you are completely changing the meaning of the text itself.

But, you might say, well, that's just because he's Jewish. No. The next thing that I hope caught all of your minds, as you thought of Romans chapter 8, was, and folks, you need to grab hold of this if you are going to speak the word in this culture at this time.

We were overwhelmed with the response that we got to the Matthew Vine series. Why? Because everybody knows this is where our culture is attacking our faith right now.

And you need to understand your faith is under attack. I'm not a scaremonger. I'm not trying to frighten you into something.

I am observing something and I can demonstrate beyond all question the attack upon our faith from this very example.

And I hope, I hope and pray that you've already seen what it is. When you can connect these words to coming out as a homosexual, that is to the capitulation, because this man fought against this.

He knew he had been taught what God's law says about this, and he fought against it.

What he's saying is, I gave up. I abandoned the moral element of the law.

I abandoned the fight. And I have now accepted the idea.

I have accepted the idea that these lusts and desires, and no one doubts that he experiences and continues to experience same -sex attraction, but I am going to allow myself to be defined by the lusts and desires that I feel.

To connect that capitulation with this text is exactly what the quote -unquote gay

Christian movement is all about. And what you need to understand is it is a fundamental, unquestionable, unadulterated demand that you deny the very central aspect of the proclamation of the gospel.

And why is that? What's the text? Romans 8. That was the conclusion of Romans 8, which is,

In Christ Jesus our Lord. What brought that about? What was the essence of that?

Begins in verse 31. Well, of course, you have the golden chain. You have God's work of salvation. But this is why he had to cut off,

In Christ Jesus our Lord. What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us?

He who did not spare his own son, but delivered him over for us all, how will he not also with him freely give us all things?

Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies.

Who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is he who died, yes, rather, who was raised, who is the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.

And because of that, then you have, who will separate us from the love of Christ?

You see? What you are being asked, what our society is demanding, what our political leaders are demanding, what apostate

Christians and apostate denominations are demanding, what emergent people are demanding, what every quote -unquote affirming church is demanding, that you compromise on the cross.

What do you mean the cross? What do you mean they all love the cross? No, they don't.

What does that text say? Why did the Son of God suffer and bleed upon the cross of Calvary?

Why? Because God had to make it so there could be no one who could bring a charge against his elect people.

Well, we all know his elect people have a lot of charge against them. They've broken his law.

And they needed a perfect substitute. He had to become the curse because we are cursed.

And by doing what Michelson has done here, he has emptied the cross of its meaning because there's no law anymore that defines sin.

If homosexuality is not a sin, then adultery is not a sin. It's just the way

I was made. God gave me these desires. One woman's not enough for me.

And that marriage stuff, that was just cultural.

God gave me the desire to have lots of stuff so I can steal. God gave me the desire for animals.

God gave me the desire for children. It doesn't matter anymore because God's law has been done away with.

You can find a way around everything. And it was that law.

It was that law that necessitated the cross. It was that law and the brokenness of us that necessitated the work of the

Father, Son, and Spirit. And so you are being asked. No, you're not being asked.

It is being demanded of you in your place of work.

When you are forced to go to sensitivity training, what they're saying to you is, don't believe what the gospel says about you and everyone else.

That's the issue here. Who will bring a charge against God's elect?

Charge? No, God is all love. He doesn't worry about charges.

Wait a minute. Why would Paul even ask that question? He's explaining why

God did not spare his own Son. But if there is no law, there is no reason for the deliverance of the

Son in the first place. Is there? And so you see, what

Mr. Michelson has done is to tear the very foundation of the gospel out from underneath our feet.

And so many pseudo -Christians sit there and go, sounds good to me, sounds good to me.

Love, love, love. God's love demanded the cross.

Don't tell me you love God. Don't tell me you love God if you don't see the necessity of the cross.

Don't talk to me about it. I don't want to hear it. And so you see, fundamentally, and he hasn't gotten to this yet.

Next ride, I'll run into it. So maybe Thursday.

Again, depending on when Clementine decides to show up. Maybe on Thursday.

Because I'm still holding out for Monday. Grandpa's holding out for Monday. Summer would love that.

No, doesn't want to wait that long. But I'm holding out for Monday. Because I think having the same birthday as Grandpa would be a really cool thing.

I mean, I think, two cakes. Believe me, when she's three, four, five years old, she would really like for Grandpa and her to have birthdays on the same day.

Because that's going to be very good for her. Really, really it is. So I'm just suggesting. Should Summer be listening?

Which she might, I don't know. Especially, you know the other, oh, there's one other neat thing.

Wait, wait, wait, wait. There's another neat thing before I get back to the text. Sorry. But not only is

Monday my 50th birthday, but I was born on a Monday. And so isn't that weird? My 50th birthday is falling on the same,

I was born on a Monday. So there you go. For any indication here, she's not even born yet and you're spoiling her.

Oh, are you kidding? I thought that was my job. Did I miss something? Isn't that in the job description?

That's what everybody's told me. Yeah, you bet. You bet. That's how it works. So maybe on Thursday, I'll get to that section and be able to talk to you about it.

But I certainly noticed that Justin Lee passed over very, very quickly.

This text, and we're about out of time, so I'll need to be quick. Paul wrote to the Corinthians. Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?

Folks, how many of you really believe that? How many of you really believe that? Do not be deceived.

Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers.

And I'm going to read the ESV here because I think this is one of the best ESV translations.

I now understand why they did it and this is great. Here's the

ESV. Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

Let me just mention the ESV. What I like about this is there's two terms.

The New American Standard says nor effeminate, nor homosexuals. I think they're right here.

Ute malakoi, ute arsenakoitai. Putting them together like that means both the aggressive and passive practitioners of homosexuality.

Putting them together, they just translate it. Nor men who practice homosexuality.

Nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

Now, first of all, there's a fundamental rejection of that kind of clear, moral, and ethical teaching.

And there are many people that say, well, that was just in those days. That was just in the

Roman Empire. So I guess being greedy, or drunkards, or revilers, or swindlers is good now?

But fundamentally, fundamentally, here's where the rejection lies.

Here's where the rejection lies. Verse 11. Verse 11. This phrase, kai tautatinas eita, and such were some of you.

They don't believe that. The gay,

Christian movement has to change the tense of the verb.

And such are some of you. But that's not what Paul said. That's not what

Paul said. And there's no question about the text, by the way. You can't try to argue, well, you know, maybe some manuscript said this, or some manuscript said that.

He used the past tense. Such were some of you, but, adversative use of a law, but you were washed.

You were sanctified. You were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the

Spirit of our God. That, folks, as long as that is

Scripture, is the end of the gay, Christian movement. It's the end of the gay,

Christian movement. Such were, but, something happened.

You were washed. You had to be washed of these things. There had to be a cleansing. You were sanctified.

You were set apart. You were made holy. You were justified. You were declared righteous in the name of the

Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. There was a change.

And fundamentally, what we are being told today, you can not believe that in this society any longer.

Don't miss it, folks. The homosexual movement is an attack upon the

Gospel of Jesus Christ. And you see it right there.

Well, didn't think I was going to go that long on that, but not overly surprised.

And as I said, I might be here Thursday. I hope I'm here Thursday. I really do.

I really do. I hope I'm here Tuesday of next week. And that things happen in between there on Monday.

But you don't know. So we'll find out. It's not really up to me. I can make all the suggestions in the world and won't have any impact.

Anyway, so Lord willing, we'll see you Thursday. God bless. ... ...

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