The Problem of Evil and Prison

The Reformed View of Evil and God's Sovereignty

Welcome to have you not read a podcast seeking to answer questions from the text of scripture for the honor of Christ and the edification Of the Saints before we dig into our topic. We humbly ask you to rate review and share the podcast.

Thank you.

My name is Chris Giesler and with me is Michael Durham and we have a couple of questions that we'd like to Try to tackle. This was sent in by our listeners. How does the Reformed view explain evil? How should we understand this in light of God's sovereign will over all things.

Let's start with that one. Very good.

Well, I think when we hear the word reformed the Definition that is often given or the three C's that is confessional covenantal and Calvinistic but I think that given the clarification in the question it's more than talking about Reformed theology classically expressed in the Westminster Confession or the Heidelberg Catechism or The Synod of Dort or something like that, but they're more interested in talking about if God is truly sovereign over all things in control of all things and how can we give an account of evil if God is sovereign over all things and so.

When it comes to when it comes to that I would say that the Bible in more than one way at more than one time.

Affirms.

That God is in control of everything and That all that he does he does for his own sake for his own sake. He does these things. He will not give his glory to another. That he ordains things from long ago things that have not yet come to pass.

That God has all power. He's the one who's who says to the oceans thus far and no further that Nobody can stay his hand or say to him. What is it that you have done. And Our Lord our God is in the heavens and he does whatever he pleases.

Psalm 115 says there are many many passages of Scripture that affirm the freedom of God to do all that he pleases. The Sovereignty of God to accomplish all that he is determined. And when people read those expressions in Scripture some may immediately latch on to those and find comfort and peace others may be a bit wary and Wonder but bad things happen and the folks that have grabbed hold of the passages say yes.

But we can still trust God because he's sovereign overall and the other folks are saying but these evil things are happening. So are you saying God is doing evil? So there's a real wrestling with the problem of evil as they say Given God being all-powerful.

In fact, there's a classic argument against the doctrine of God. Because the Bible says that he is all-powerful and that he's all good. Given the reality of evil in the world the argument goes he's either Therefore not all good or he's not all-powerful, right?

And so that's a classic argument against the Christian God the God revealed in the Scriptures, right?

And that's working with very specific definitions of good They might have in their mind or what constitutes as evil or power.

Yes, now the first time we hear about evil is in Genesis chapter 2 and When God was giving instructions to Adam and these instructions were to be passed on to Eve Once he made Eve, but when he was giving instructions to Adam He said of all the trees of the garden you may freely eat.

But then in Genesis 2 17 he says but the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. You shall not eat for in the day that you eat of it. You shall surely die. Now this is before the fall. This is before Adam and Eve sinned here.

We are in Genesis chapter 2. This is the sixth day as we understand Genesis 2 to be an expanded View of day six when God created man and the animals and so this is very early on that God is talking about Evil and the knowledge of not only good but the knowledge of evil that that the knowledge of evil is there.

Even at the beginning and yet all this whole time when God has been creating he is saying it was good. It is good. It is good. It is very good when he makes his creation. So, how do we understand that when Satan tempts Eve he tells her among other things That the reason why God forbade her and Adam from eating of this tree quote Genesis 3 5 Satan says for God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes Will be opened and you will be like God knowing good and evil again this knowing evil and How are we to understand that I think in common use of our language we would say, you know, no evil.

Experientially know what evil is. What it's like what it feels like how it works. Kind of a subjective knowledge a subjective not in the sense of whatever it means to me. But subjective in the sense of I the subject know evil experientially you see but that's not the Meaning of the term knowledge in Genesis 2 17 and 3 5 we know that because of Genesis 3 22 After the fall and after God had confronted Adam and Eve that they had sinned He expelled them from the Garden of Eden and he gave his reasons his reasons are in Genesis 3 22.

Then the Lord God said behold the man has become like one of us. He's speaking of himself in the plural Godhead to know good and Evil and now lest you put out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat and live forever.

It casts mankind out. So what did God just say there? Behold indeed. The man has become like one of us to know good and evil now as God's saying because man has experienced evil and He has this subjective Personal knowledge of evil because he has done evil and experienced evil.

He's become like one of us because God himself has.

Subjective.

Knowledge of evil having Experienced evil and done evil that can't possibly be. That would be in disagreement with all the rest of Scripture. So this is not to be understood as a subjective knowledge, but as an objective knowledge knowing good and evil Objectively meaning the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

This knowledge is not subjective but Objective to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. In other words is to determine to know. Objectively to determine the knowledge of what good is and what evil is that is not the business of man.

Mankind is a created being derived from the Creator. We we exist because he has given us breath to breathe. It is his truth that we mediate. We don't have our own truth. And so he gets to determine what good and evil is when we determine evil and good for ourselves.

That's eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. There really was a tree and they really did eat of it. But it really was the temptation where Satan was saying to Eve Eve shouldn't you determine what's good for you?

Shouldn't you determine what good and evil is for on your own and be like God rather than let rather than let God determine good And evil for you. Shouldn't you determine that for yourself, right?

So when he was saying you'll be like God getting to say what is good and what is evil for yourself.

Don't be content being made in the image of God deriving your existence from God deriving your knowledge from God and being dependent on him. Why don't you just be God yourself? Yeah, you do you you do you exactly so this is Where we first hear about evil and we hear that God is the one who determines Objectively what good is and what evil is.

God is the one who defines that and explains that and reveals that now. This is not saying that God he himself does evil. It doesn't say that he himself is evil, but we don't know what evil is unless God himself Defines it for us.

Hmm. So that's an important starting point I think in trying to understand this particular question now further we hear about evil. When it comes to human beings fallen in Adam before and after the flood in Genesis 6 and 8 Genesis 6 5 and Genesis 8 21 God looks upon man and he says that man is Evil his heart is only evil continually and that he his heart is evil from his youth.

So God is saying about man man is evil man has this evil corruption in him and at some point We you know, we could just stop for a moment and reflect and say well God Why do you let man live? Why do you give life to men?

Why do you bless the womb so that children may be born? Why is it that you allow men to continue to live in these evil ways God? Why right and this is a good question. I think it's a question that comes up in the Psalms.

It comes up in Job. It comes up in Proverbs. It comes up in Habakkuk. It comes up in in the other prophets. It comes up in the in the scriptures all over the place God. Why you know the hearts of men, you know how evil men are.

Why would you give them life keep them alive? Give them the sunshine on the evil and the good and your rain on the unjust and the just why would you? Sustain them in some sense God. Does this not make you responsible God?

If you really know all things and control all things. Why do you why do you give life and ability for men to do evil things? Why not just snuff them out take their life away, right? So it's some sense we're saying we're not saying that God does evil.

God himself is not evil. He does not sin. He is not evil. He does not tempt anyone to evil James says. However in another sense, even though God does not do evil and he himself is not evil He ultimately is indeed responsible for evil hmm, not in a guilt sense, but in a sovereign sense so to put it another way when Joseph was sold by his brothers into slavery and he was taken down to Egypt and These brothers because his brothers hated him and they lied to Joseph's father and told him that Joseph been slain by a wild animal and Joseph had to serve Potiphar until he was falsely accused and thrown into prison where he served and interpreted dreams for a baker and a butler and then later on it was raised to the right hand of the most powerful man on earth Pharaoh the famines came and Joseph by the wisdom of God had been able to Marshall the efforts the agricultural efforts of Egypt so that there would be enough food to keep everybody alive despite the seven-year famine and when it was All said and done when Jacob died and his brothers thought well Joseph's only been nice to us all this time since We found him because dad's been alive, but now he's gonna kill us and they tried to make up some story.

Oh, by the way before dad died He said you you know, Joseph better be nice to you or something like that and Joseph said hey look you meant it for evil God meant it for good. Hmm. So it was the men who did the evil but God orchestrated ordained Shepherded brought all of that to pass.

Even ensuring the success of that evil act by Joseph's brothers. So that Joseph would be in the right place at the right time to do the right thing so that God would bring about good. Right. In other words evil is not something that God does but it is something that God uses.

And he controls and he is sovereign over yeah, and it's not just he's waiting till evil shows up and then he uses it for.

Good he Pre-purposes that evil and you can look at the evil act and say that was evil. You look at the brothers that what they did was wicked. It was evil. You're not conflating with that anything.

Yeah.

But then you look at the end and you see the good the nation of Israel Continued to exist because of Joseph's acts. They would have died in the famine but God had a plan and it included Joseph being put in prison so that he'd be at the right place at the right time and.

It was all in God's hand. So God is sovereign over evil. He's in charge of it. He uses it. He doesn't do evil. He only does good and this is how far better his goodness is how more powerful he is. Than evil so two more things.

I think need to be said about this one is this is not just a reformed view. This is not unique to reform view. This is this is actually unique to Christianity at the very heart of Christianity. I've never found a brother or sister in Christ who thought that Jesus Christ's death upon the cross is suffering and death upon the cross.

I've never found a brother or sister in Christ who who looked at me and told me that the death of Jesus on the cross was a total random accident who saw that coming or that it was. Not only unplanned but something that it was a good thing like a righteous Thing done by people who were doing the right thing, right?

So these people were doing evil thing.

Well.

And that's what that's what Peter says in acts and that's where you can point as far as like the apex of this conflict is Peter's talking about the crucifixion and he specifically mentions gathered together were Pontius Pilate the Jews.

Several groups of people all with different motivations and they were all doing evil and he calls it evils. But then he turns on says and he did exactly what your hand.

Predestined them to do. Yes, that's an axe chapter 4. So this is a very evil thing that they did. All Christians agree with that all Christians Just read the gospel read the Bible and say what they did to Jesus was was evil.

We also put our Bibles and we read all the prophecies that Jesus was going to die that way that he would they would look Upon him whom they pierced they cast lots for his garments all these prophecies.

It said Jesus Christ would die this way and everybody agrees That this was God's plan that this would happen. In other words. God is sovereign. He brings this to pass and It was an evil thing that happened.

So at the very heart of the gospel, we see that God is sovereign over evil. That's not something that is unique to you know, people who who study reformed theology. That's the heart of what every single Christian believes, you know, that's at the basics, right?

Yeah, I think one other thing as far as this question goes is there's kind of the intellectual answer to the problem of evil but then there's also the emotional because you'll hear talks between non-christians and Christians and they'll they'll have some Heart-wrenching act of evil that was done and how can you say that God says that was good or that there's meaning in it and Ultimately us as creatures.

We don't have that answer. The answer should be how could I know? I do not have all knowledge. I'm not sovereign I don't. I could not know how to work this out in a way that good could come from it, but I'm not God.

God knows what he's doing and the Bible says that he is good. So I either trust that or I don't. I understand that. That there's an emotional Element there, but if you don't believe that God is good in the first place, it's gonna be very hard for you to emotionally Get over that that hurdle and you are not gonna accept the intellectual argument for it.

Yeah.

I think a good mix of the intellectual and the emotional is in the 42 chapters known as the book of Job. Hmm and when you walk through the book of Job and you hear what Job has to say and what his three friends and the and the fourth guy that shows up what he has to say against the backdrop of what God and Satan had to say at the very beginning of the book and what God has to say at the end of the book.

You find a lot of emotional arguments. Y 'all find a lot intellectual arguments. They try to sort through what in the world has happened to Job and in the end Job feels like God has wronged him and and he feels like you know, I don't deserve this you know, I know God is God, but I also feel like this is totally wrong and His his friends try to say well, you know, you've obviously messed up somehow you know God would never allow bad things to happen to good people and they're trying to work through all of that and.

The fourth guy shows up and says, you know Job I'm not sure what happened, but you know, you need to stop complaining about God because obviously he's always right. That's not quite an answer. But when it comes down to it God confronts Job and says who do you think you are man?

Now, who do you think you are and he just shows him as a glory and his power and and Job faces the whirlwind of God's sovereignty and he comes out of that with his hand over his mouth and in the end God blesses and Everything is better than it ever was before and it's a reminder that if we were to consider the whole scope of history that that is ultimately how it works that.

Even though we can't understand in the middle we do know enough to say that God knows but better than we do and that what God is doing is bigger and more important and bringing about things that we can't even possibly imagine that are good and we can't.

Give up on the story in chapter 3 and shut the book and forget about chapters 4 through 50, right? I mean you think we're smart enough to figure out where the story is gonna go this early on God is the one we have to trust in this so I think that that's.

We have plenty of stories in the scripture and examples in the scripture to to remind us of that and to help us along with.

That.

Whether Prison Is a Biblical Concept

So somewhat related to this you had brought up Joseph in prison. Joseph being put in prison. One of our questions said in the last episode you hinted at not believing prison was biblical. Could you speak more to that?

Yes, so if we were going to go through the scriptures and try to find out any passages on prison. You know, where do we think we would find prison? Obviously, there's there's Joseph, you know in prison in Egypt and The time that he had there.

The only example of anybody else in prison were people that Pharaoh were upset with and with within three days you know things get settled and One dies and one is restored to his place. Joseph has to stay there in the prison, but basically he's just working there.

He actually has a job there. Whereas the accusation of Potiphar's wife made against him should have been an execution. But Potiphar obviously had not heard of you know, hashtag me too because he didn't believe his wife.

He was upset and angry, but if he had believed his wife, he would have killed Joseph. He was the captain of the guard of Pharaoh. I mean he had a sword nearby and he had a role of execution. So he could have just killed Joseph, but instead of killing him He put him in the prison and Joseph lived there for a while.

But that that's abnormal. Abnormal in history and abnormal in terms of biblical wisdom. If we were to look for prison elsewhere We would find kind of impromptu prison situations. One example is that of Jeremiah who just wouldn't stop preaching the Word of the Lord and the Kings just didn't like that until finally they threw him down into a dry cistern and You know a little bit of food was dropped down to him, but that's not a prison.

It was just happened to be an empty cistern because they drank all the water. Yeah. Yeah, so we're gonna throw you down there so we can keep you quiet.

They didn't have a structure dedicated for keeping prisoners.

No, and it was something wherein it's like you're probably gonna die down there and if you do fine, you know. But out of sight out of mind, okay. It's a it, you know, that's that was the idea. Where else do we hear about prisons in the Bible?

I think of maybe some of the perils. Maybe like betters prison or Philippian jailer. Paul is in prison in the New Testament under Roman, you know occupation.

Those come to mind we have a Samson Incarcerated and then like made to entertain or employed to grind at the mill having been blinded and so forth. But we have these incidentals, but when we have positive instruction Concerning criminal activity positive instruction concerning justice where we would look for some sort of general equity wisdom.

From the Old Testament to try to get an idea of what would be a just way of approaching these things. We're not under the law to keep the law. We're not to evaluate the law and say this is the standard of righteousness.

Christ is our standard of righteousness. So if we're to look back at the law and look at what you know, how they handled things. If somebody Steals there's a way to make reparation based on what was stolen how long it was gone.

How much the victim suffered anywhere from restoring it plus 20 to restoring it fourfold? Oh, you can't afford that. Well, you're going to work. Mm-hmm, and you're gonna work for the person you stole from.

Yeah, and if you don't do that. Then there's there's further punishments coming, but it's not. We're going to put you in a concrete cell. Yeah in a community of other criminals.

Yeah, and fine you but that money doesn't go to the victim that goes to the state.

Yeah to pay the corporation who's running the prison right. So we don't have an example of prison in the judicial system. In the life of Israel if there is a holding cell It's you know so that the speedy trial can occur where two or three witnesses may be brought and if they're in agreement then the Punishment is is brought to pass.

So there are there are fines. There are beatings. There's executions. There's you know Enslavement. You have to go work for somebody for a long time till you get it fixed, but we do not have prisons. Mentioned as a way of handling criminal activity.

Maybe someone would make the argument. We're we're more civilized now.

Maybe that those methods of punitive beatings and the capital punishment things or maybe that was Old Testament and now.

That's not the case in the New Testament. Mm-hmm. How would we answer that? I think our modern prison system Has the reputation of like this is the more humane way of doing things because it's about rehabilitation.

But there's a lot of assumptions to go into that. Let me back up a little bit and talk about why we have a modern prison system. Versus the not so modern prison system in which there is many abuses in judicial systems where you did have debtor prisons and you had really a lot of problems with mass incarcerations and even you know shipping like the England had a very unjust society and Put many people into debtors prison through a variety of unjust laws and they couldn't work their way out.

They had to be sent to Australia and Georgia penal colonies to do labor and so on and so forth. But you had a lot of death and destruction going on in the prisons in England when we think about prisons today.

They try to stress that they want to be humane and they want to try to bring some sort of rehabilitation. We want to educate them. We want to give them jobs to do. But we have to keep them out of society because they're a menace to society at some level however, the prison system that we have is unjust for a number of reasons one is that it's a money-making scheme where in Prison corporations are running the things they get more money based on how many prisoners are there so Incarcerating a whole lot of people makes a whole lot of monetary monetary sense.

If you have your war on drugs. Wherein you have mandatory minimums and you start putting everybody away really fast. Then you have a massive prisoner population and they all do work about 25 20 cents an hour.

Okay, because remember that the amendment that so-called ended slavery in the United States did not end Slavery United States. It stopped private ownership of slaves in the United States. But ensured that federal enslavement of human beings was alive and well and we have that today so an example is here's a corporation who you know is on a contract to have massive amounts of Laundering done.

We've got to get all of these sheets laundered. We have to get all of these uniforms laundered and we need to do it cheap. Well, we have a slave population over here in this federal penitentiary and they all work for 20 cents an hour.

So we're gonna have hit them do all the laundry. See how that works. Yeah, there's there's a lot of monetary incentive to keep this system going but it is not Biblically just to say to somebody who has let's say they've embezzled ten thousand dollars from their local business.

Stole from their boss. Okay, let's say that or still from their business partner. That's wrong. That's evil. They should pay their partner back. Mm-hmm, right? They should pay them back. You know. Maybe twelve thousand dollars back or maybe they should pay him twenty thousand dollars back because of it and the state should make sure that That happens and the man should work and pay back all of that, right?

Yeah, okay, but he's not doing that when he's in prison, right?

Well in one term thrown around is debt to society. Yeah, but whose debt was that it was a debt to his neighbor. Yes, and he sinned against God in stealing right and then on top of that what I've Found so say that man stole from his neighbor.

He's arrested for it. He's put in prison and he has to work that debt off. So the state gets that debt not his neighbor. Mm-hmm, but then the neighbor is paying taxes to house the thief in prison. So he's victimized a second time.

Yes, because he has to pay for everything all that goes into living in a prison prison life. So he doesn't get that money back and then not to mention if it's if it's not just money say if someone and the Bible talks about these types of things if Someone has equipment that quit that equipment is damaged or stolen.

Not only do you have the equipment itself, but then you have the lost wages. Yes from you you don't have that equipment you days of weeks months worth of work that's gone. That has to be paid back. But no, it's all swept under the rug everything goes to the state and what it does is it destroys all sense of Restoration in a community this this is the state's gonna take care of it.

There's no forgiveness because they're just outside out of mind. That's right. They're not made right with their neighbor because that debt is still outstanding. It's just Distributed amongst the whole population.

Yeah, so if you have the idea that the the state is the Savior the state's going to rehabilitate the criminals in the prison system. They're gonna save the criminals and make them all better by the time they get out.

And then the state is the one to whom the criminal must do penance. I pay my debt to society. Well, that means the state so, you know, it's not about how you've wronged your neighbor. You need to make things right with your neighbor.

It's you wrong the state and so you need to do your penance to the state so it's not a focus on actual justice. It's an unjust system and said well, you know, there's this man who you know. He lost $10 ,000 because his business partner embezzled from him.

Well, he should have had insurance. Another let's introduce another layer. Yes, and we know how well insurance works. Yeah in doing the right thing and but they don't do the right thing. So then you have to appeal to the state and go Legal routes and go to litigation trying to get these insurance companies to actually do what they said that they would do.

But all of it could be Completely made right and just if the local magistrate the sheriff would say you stole $10 ,000 from your business partner. Well, guess what bud you're going to go work at one of these jobs.

We need somebody to work. Okay, and you're gonna get yourself a subsistence wage out of it. You're gonna have enough for your food clothing and shelter. You're gonna have barely enough to get by and then everything else is gonna be garnished.

It's gonna go back and pay back your partner till you're all done, right? And we're gonna make sure that that happens and if you don't want that happen. We've got a rope situation that we can solve that with right?

Okay. It's like you're not going to ruin our society by doing this. In fact, you're gonna help make it back, you know and in a situation where you know, if it's if it's some other thing. You know, someone gets drunk and it gets into a fight and hits a guy, you know.

Whatever he has to pay the medical bills as he get publicly beaten and shamed for being a drunkard there's different ways of handling these things, but they have all been labeled as as unjust or Inhumane so so what we're going to do is we're going to expand federal slave ownership and we're going to put people into concrete boxes and we're gonna treat them like animals and then they're going to treat each other like animals both sexually and violently and then we're going to create a professional criminal class and Then once they're fully marked as being a criminal like this then when they get out of the prison system.

We're gonna make sure that they have no opportunities to do anything of meaning meaningful value. So that they're probably gonna end up right back into prison. Yeah, it's like that is not a just that man came up with this idea and lo and behold.

It's a bad idea.

Yeah, I mean I've heard stories of people in in prison. They're like I would take a beating to get my life back to get time. With my family like that their life is just taken away and even like the types of laws.

So in the Bible, there's the difference between sin and crime. Crime. There's no such thing as a victimless crime. Well in our society there are laws where there's no victim. There was no one that had has been wrong.

But the state can't. Nope. You're not supposed to do that. You have to give us money. Oh, you're not supposed to do that. We're gonna throw you in jail. Mm-hmm. Well, there was no one for that person to give restitution to know because there was no one harmed Licensing's fees all tickets all these different things, but they get you in the system.

And once you're there, it's hard to get out. I got a call one time was I was 2014 when I first came here to Sunnyside, I got a call from someone who's just going through the phone book asking for help.

His name is Michael Johnson and He was on his way from Houston. He was trying to get out to Eastern, Oklahoma and Said he just needed help get a ride. He wanted to get a ride out to the loves out at Choctaw Road.

Hmm because he wasn't gonna hook up with it some sort of trucker. Maybe we'll get him out of the way out there to the east side of Oklahoma. And so I went over and and met him guys six eleven and a half.

Tallest man I've ever seen up that close. He was a huge black man had just been released from prison and he's trying to get home to his wife to her credit. She had not divorced him over the last 20 years while he was in federal prison in Texas.

I was giving him his ride. We were talking about the things of the Lord. He'd become a Christian in prison. They had some guys coming over from a seminary and taught through the scriptures and he had learned a lot from the Bible and so On and he said, you know You can tell the difference between Christians in on the inside and who are not Christians.

He said because the Christians confess their sins and take responsibility and the ones who aren't Christians blame everybody else. I thought was an interesting observation from that guy and I said well Why did you have to be in prison for 20 years?

He said I got mad and I pushed a cop.

Wow.

The cops have been saying stuff to him and he got really mad and he pushed a cop. Assault on a police officer in Texas. 20 years in prison. Wow. Shouldn't there be a more just way of handling that. I would think so.

I would think so. I would think so too, you know. And obviously I think putting him behind bars for 20 and this is a guy who says I take full responsibility for he said I did the wrong thing. I shouldn't have pushed him.

I really did assault that cop and I should not have done that. He took full responsibility for he wasn't trying to lie and tell me that. You know, it was no big deal. He's saying yeah, I did the wrong thing but 20 years in prison for that.

That sounds like wickedness.

So we got him out to Henrietta and then he got a truck ride all the way out to and he went to go live. With his brother lit and sleep on his brother's couch and work on mending his relationship with his wife.

He called me some months later and told me that he got himself a job and things were progressing. Well getting counseling with his wife. Wow in church and things were getting going. Well, I think about that.

I think you know, somebody gets angry and pushes a cop that's wrong, you know. Something should happen, but I don't think 20 years in prison is the answer. Mm-hmm. You know, I don't I don't think that's the answer.

So I think it it's an unjust system and I don't think it's a proper response to evil.