The King James Only Controversy on BAM

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In studio today a friend a guest a scholar in residence at Grand Canyon University and the author of the
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King James only controversy James White delighted to have you in studio today.
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It's good to be with you. You have written a controversial book about a
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Controversy and I want to be the first to say that I think this is a tremendous piece of work in My endorsement of this book on the back cover of the book
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I say a clear compelling and conclusive case contradicting the claims of King James Version only advocates your confidence in God's preservation of Scripture through credible
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Translations such as the NIV and the NASB will be solidified and I think that's one of the things that you wanted to do through the book is enhance and Solidify the confidence that people have in the
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Word of God That's very true, especially in light of the claims that are commonly made by King James only advocates
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Who would cause people to doubt whether the Bible translation that they're utilizing if it isn't a
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King James It's going to accurately lead them to a knowledge of God I've had many people contact me who were using another translation and the book has helped them to Get through the confusion and the concern the real concern
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That was there was cause to them that maybe I haven't been getting everything God would have me to have your problem is not with the
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King James Version But with King James Version only exactly the King James Version of the
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Bible is a tremendous work of scholarship And it certainly served the church tremendously well but the
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King James only movement makes the King James something that the translators never intended it for it for it to be and Really in many ways.
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I'm standing for what the King James translators Believed about how you should do translation the necessity of revision so on and so forth and so we are not here to say
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If you find the King James Version to be your translation of choice There's something wrong with you or trying to convince you to abandon the use of that translation at all instead the book responds to those who would say
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Unless you use the King James Version. You're not actually reading God's Word Let's take a little bit of a whirlwind tour from the secular
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Koine Greek the Greek the common language of the day in which the majority of the New Testament Came to us
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From the secular Koine Greek of the day to where we are today
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Okay, well first of all the language itself a very beautiful language very expressive language It's the language the people spoke at the time so God communicated to us
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In a way that was understandable to the people of the day. He didn't write it on a kindergarten level
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He didn't write it in the high classical Greek He communicated to people like you and I in a language that we could understand by the way
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There's a principle there for us in in looking at modern Bible translations very much
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So I'm I'm concerned about many of the translations that have come out very recently that are attempting to make the level the
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Bible Simpler than the Holy Spirit did yeah, so you don't want college level or first grade level
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Maybe fifth or sixth grade would be a problem. You don't want unnecessary Confusion, but neither do you want to lose anything?
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That's there it is a it is a tight line that has to be walked in it And I believe that there are a number of modern translations that do it quite well
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But from that language you have the writing of the scriptures themselves They are
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God breathe that is the scriptures that are God breathe not the men that are writing them They're not described as being
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God breathe. It's a scriptures that are God breathe. It's God speaking to us But we don't have what
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Paul wrote to the letter and when he wrote to Ephesus or to the Church of Colossae We don't have that letter anymore in fact
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I think you'd probably agree with me if we did It would probably be someplace in a shrine and people be lining up to worship it
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Just like like they did in in Israel of old We don't have those and so the question that is looms and everyone's mind is
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How did those words that were given by God come to be in my possession today in my
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English Bible What was the process and unfortunately the King James only controversy thrives in the fact that that's not something that we talk a lot about It's not something that we emphasize a lot in our sermons and our teaching helping people understand them
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What we recognize is that the first difference between the Christians and the
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Jewish people before them is that the Christian people wanted? Everyone to hear about Jesus Christ And so they were very open in allowing their scriptures to be copied
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If a letter was for example found in the Church of Colossae when a Christian would come through and he said why
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I want to Read about this it talks about the preeminence of Christ They would be allowed to make a copy and very very very quickly
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Entire sections of New Testament ended up buried in the sands of Egypt they ended up in in Gaul in Italy They're being translated into Latin and other languages very very quickly
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The scriptures were spread all over the known world because people everywhere believed that people needed to hear the message of the good news of Jesus Christ now there are two side effects of that methodology that God chose to use the first is a wonderful one and as you know
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I do a lot with Mormons and dealing with the claims the LDS Church and One of the claims they make is that you know that the scriptures have been altered and changed to many plain and precious truths
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Deleted because someone didn't like it so and so forth there was never a time in history When any one man group of men religious organization had control over all of the manuscripts of the
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Bible If all we had was say the originals in control of a powerful religious group today we would have no way of knowing whether a
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Thousand years ago five hundred years ago They decided to change the theology and delete the deity of Christ or insert this doctrine insert that talk
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And we would have no confidence of that so because they're spread out all over the world. That's an impossibility It's an impossibility in fact if someone does come along and try to make some radical change in a manuscript when you compare that one
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Manuscript against the other five thousand that we have it sticks out like a sore thumb So that was never a possibility for anyone to do and when we talk about the preservation of Scripture I believe this is how
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God has preserved it in that way but there's a second result of that and that is if you and I were to take the gospel of John and Sit right here in a well -lit place, and we're both to hand write a copy of the gospel of John I'll let you say that yours would be the most accurate, but we would not be
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Ours would not be word -for -word identical we would make errors we would skip lines We'd misspell words, and there's all sorts of common errors that human beings make when they do that type of activity
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I do it in front of a word processor with word processing equipment that checks and corrects my spelling as I type
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I still make errors That is what happens when in the history of the
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New Testament you have Christians Simply making copies and sending them out all over the place you have what we know as textual
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Variance that is places where the Greek manuscripts will differ from one another there are no two
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Greek manuscripts in the world That read word -for -word identical with any other now the most of them are exceptionally close 85 % of the text in the
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New Testament exhibits No variation at all of that remaining 15 % at least 90 % of that is easily resolved
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So we're looking at about one to one and a half percent of the text in the New Testament We have to do serious textual examination to be able to determine the original reading one of the illustrations
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I like in your book is where you say okay? Let's say we had an original and ten people sat down in a room and copied that original
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You'd end up with ten different copies, and if you lost the original you would be able to get back to it
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With those ten copies that are different in fact. It's really interesting Dan Wallace at Dallas Seminary has his students do a little thing every year every semester actually where he takes a an apocryphal story and He tells one person that you be sloppy while you while you copy it and you be the smart one you be real careful
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And and you just try to hurry through it And then they just get rid of the original copy those and then destroy them and then their project is can we get back to?
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The original and I think he said he's done this 32 times And in every instance they have been able to get back to the original within one word and that word was either two or Also, and the reason is because you don't all make the same mistakes at the same place exactly the smarter students are going to make
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The lesser mistakes are not gonna make mistakes in the same places by comparing against other manuscripts You're gonna see real obvious errors so on so forth so we are able modern modern
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Christian scholars truly believe That not only do we have the original readings in the manuscripts that we have what
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I mean by that is that no original readings have Simply fallen out they haven't simply just disappeared
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We have the original readings But we are able to determine with an extremely high level of accuracy what those original readings are and when we don't know more when we're
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Uncertain that's why your NASB and your NKJV and your NIV have those little notes down the bottom of the page
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And the King James Version did it Originally there were a number of notes like that But most of the modern
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King James translations do not have that in there in their margins But many of them did for many many years well take us to the time of days of Darius Erasmus.
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Okay now you're around 1516 and you have the first printed published version of the the
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Greek That manuscript that's really where the modern history of the Bible begins in the sense that now we're getting to the foundations of the
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King James Version of course printing and is invented in the middle of the 15th century The first thing to come off the press is a is a
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Latin text of the Bible and of course he sat down with 5 ,000 manuscripts No, Desiderius Erasmus was a
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Roman Catholic scholar. He was Roman Catholic priest He was known as the prince of the humanist and at that term that met that that time the term humanist
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Simply meant a person who wanted to go to the original sources an individual Who wanted to not just simply hear what everybody else and said about a subject he wanted to read about it for when you call him
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A Catholic humanist you're not saying that in a pejorative and a pejorative sense at all in fact He was a pain in the side of the established church in many ways for many of the things that he wrote
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But he wanted to put out the first printed and published edition of the Greek New Testament He also provided a new
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Latin translation along with he originally started work in England Then he went to Basel Switzerland, and he thought he might find some more manuscripts there
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His first edition was based on about six manuscripts. We have of various portions in the
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New Testament 5366 today he had six They all came from the same family of manuscripts none of them were more than a thousand years old in fact the older they were
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The less he trusted them so in other words He didn't trust even some of the better manuscripts that he had available to him But what he had to do is he had to sit down he had to compare the manuscripts
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And he had to determine when they differed what reading to put into his text now Why is that important well Erasmus put out five editions during his lifetime the third edition became the most popular?
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His editions along with some other editions were available to the King James translators And were utilized by the
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King James translators as the basis of the King James New Testament Why do I emphasize this?
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King James only advocates need to deal with the fact that human beings frail sinful human beings like Desiderius Erasmus were involved in making the textual choices that make up their
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King James New Testament just like in the NIV or the NASB and in point of fact they had less information available to them
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Than we have available to us today And so the King James didn't just simply fall down out of out of the sky
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There was a human process that was involved in its translation Just as there is a human process involved with the
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NIV NASB or any other modern translation Well, let's talk about James the first who actually commissioned the project in around 1604
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The project is done in seven years, which must mean it's the perfect project and There are those that would say look
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James the first was morally bankrupt. He was a homosexual Therefore we can't trust the
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King James version on the other hand there are those who say look we can't trust the
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NIV because Virginia Mullencott who is an English stylist who worked for a small period of time on the
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NIV? Stylistic changes she wasn't on the translation committee was a lesbian and that came out later on therefore
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We can't trust the NIV let's talk about the absurdity of using those kinds of arguments unfortunately
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King James Only is and it can be defined as as the argument that uses double standards and circular arguments more often than anything else
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I think I've ever encountered and here's a good example of this Otto Scott for example has written a book that Details a lot of the problems that King James had on a personal level as far as his personal life was concerned and his behavior
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But that does not have any impact upon the accuracy of the King James as a translation and yet modern
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King James only advocates will attempt to say that everyone from Westcott and Hort to all the modern translators who were involved in modern translations were somehow
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Infected with some type of either sinfulness in regards their personal lives or theological problems and this automatically results in corrupted translations or corrupted
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Greek or Hebrew texts The problem with that is that Modern Greek text for example the the
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Nestle all in 27th edition that I hold in my hand right here You'll notice the bottom the page there are extensive notes that are provided to you and What you have down here is information given to you about all the different readings the manuscripts have
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Now if you're trying actually because of you're a sinful person to hide something in the in the scriptures
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You're not going to provide extensive footnoting at the bottom of the page It says oh by the way all these other manuscripts read like this, right?
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You're just going to go ahead and delete what's there and and and get on with it. That's not what modern scholars are doing
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It's not what modern translations are doing either and again Everyone needs to examine the arguments are presented by anyone myself included and see if they involve double standards and in the
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King James only Controversy do those who support the King James as the only infallible Bible on the planet
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Utilize the same standards in examining the King James and where it came from as they do modern translations and my research
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That's an unambiguous answer to that and it's no on page 22 of your book the
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King James only controversy you talk about translational disputes disagreements over how to translate what was originally written by the
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Prophets and the Apostles and you talk about two different kinds of translational disputes the one is a textual
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Dispute you give John 6 47 as an example the second is a translational dispute to give
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John 336 as an example talk about that for a moment Well, most of the differences between the
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King James and the modern translations are based upon one of two types of things
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In the first instance what we would call a translational dispute You have the exact same
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Greek and Hebrew terms in the manuscripts that we're utilizing the manuscripts Evidence that the
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King James translators utilized is the exact same in a verse for example of what we utilize today And yet the modern translations will translate it differently for example
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We're all familiar with Paul's words to Timothy study to show thyself approved most modern translations say be diligent
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Now both are translating the exact same Greek term They're just translating them in different ways and some people feel that the
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King James really defines How everything should be translated they start with the King James and sort of argue in circles from there
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But they say well you're trying to insert things because of the way you translate things The other type of difference is textual and that is where the
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Greek or Hebrew manuscripts that we're utilizing Differ from the Greek or Hebrew manuscripts to get a bigger James and so at that point you're translating a different Original into English and obviously that's going to result in a in a different reading in your in your
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English translation By the way, there's so much that could be said about that in when we talk about translational disputes
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People might think that's boring But if you pick up this book and you start to read about it
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The first thing it'll do is it'll make you understand how we got the Bible we have today and the second thing it'll do
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Is it will give you such? incredibly interesting Information on even how languages are translated from one culture to another
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I think that's something we ought to just touch on for a moment James And that is the the difference between dynamic equivalency and formal equivalency big words
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Perhaps but the concept is pretty easy, especially if you're bilingual most definitely so unfortunately a lot of Americans aren't bilingual
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But if you're familiar with another language Even if you just took a semester of Spanish in high school or something like that you're aware of what these issues are
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You can translate from other languages into English in more than one accurate way
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Most of us when we start studying other languages We start translating as formally as we possibly can that is literally we are simply taking well
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This word means this and this word means this and frequently our translation isn't very good It doesn't make really good sense, but at least we have some idea
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Formal translations are those translations that attempt to maintain as close a possible connection to the wording of the original
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Language text and ASB be good good example ASB is very close The King James is a very formal translation, but there is no perfectly formal translation
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It can't be done You know Greek word order for example defies English word order Yeah and you cannot just simply assign a meaning to a word and then stick with that all the way through because you and I don't
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Use words with the exact same meaning in every single context We changed our meaning as we change context so to the biblical writers
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So the more formal translations will be a little bit maybe more difficult to read they won't flow now you have other types of Translations formal.
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I'm sorry dynamic equivalency translations and these individuals. We're not talking about paraphrases here
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We're not talking there are some paraphrases out there some that are very nice but basically a person is just saying well,
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I think the writer was saying such and such a Dynamic translation is attempting to maintain as close a contact as possible with the original text, but They recognize that there are places where if you give a literal translation
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English -speaking people are not going to understand what you're saying and actually you're you're actually missing the point
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You're missing the point and you're not translating meaning and so a dynamic translation will sacrifice the literal words
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If it can help with the meaning the example that I use in the book is Luke 9 44 in Luke 9 44 in the
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King James and the NASB Jesus says let these words or these sayings sink down into your ears
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Now you and I don't speak that way the NIV says listen carefully to what
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I'm about to tell you now Dynamic that's a dynamic equivalence. That's what it means now the literal
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Greek words are let these words sink into your ears But what does that mean and that's what the dynamic translation is trying to get at give me two examples
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From languages that we're familiar with today German or French Well the the one
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I've used for years all my students are sick and tired of hearing about it The Germans have a have a phrase
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Morgan stood in hot gold in London Which literally means the morning hours have gold in their mouths, which doesn't mean anything to you and I however
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That's their way of saying our saying the other bird catches the worm the French say jaylak afar
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Which literally means I have the cockroach, but what that means in their language is
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I am depressed I have the blues yeah, and so when we translate things How are we going to translate them?
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If we want to translate meaning that we're gonna have to and in fact when we read a translation of a foreign language text
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We're awful appreciative when they help us with so if you do a formal equivalency and the the text comes out
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I have a cockroach translating from the French basically, I'm not gonna understand what you're talking about, but if you say
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I have the blues you've Given me a Dynamic equivalent of what the person was trying to communicate in the idiom of the
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French language and the argument of course that most people Make is look if you are giving a dynamic translation This is the people who for example would oppose the
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NIV they would say if you're giving me a dynamic translation You're you're interpreting one step that I want to do for myself
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It's a lot safer to provide a merely formal translation you you are really hanging yourself out for for some
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Some shots if you give a dynamic translation and yet You've probably spoken with people who upon encountering like the
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NIV or a translation that communicates with them much better Their entire understanding the faith has increased dramatically because they just couldn't understand before and so God has a place for both
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I suggest that people do not limit themselves to any single one, but they compare back and forth.
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It's kind of interesting I I speak Dutch and there are certain things. I'm trying to communicate to my wife and I have no
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English word to communicate it so I can only say it in Dutch and So this whole issue becomes clearer if you understand other languages
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Well, we're going to be coming back in just a few moments with your questions right here on the Bible answer man broadcast Any questions that have to do with the
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King James Version only controversy today? And you can get in by dialing eight hundred eight two one four four nine
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Oh again to ask questions of my in -studio guest James White the number eight hundred eight two one
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Forty four ninety will be back in just a few moments with more Welcome back to the second half of the Bible answer man broadcast.
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I'm your host Hank Hanegraaff president of Christian Research Institute I'm in studio today with James White the author of the book the
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King James only Controversy and kind of interesting that I had actually begun
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Writing this book I developed the acronym KJV only and I was about a month into the project when
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I heard that you were doing it knowing of your background I knew that I had better wait and see what you came up with you came up with this book sent me the manuscript
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I quickly read I wrote an endorsement for this manuscript and aborted my plan
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So thank you for saving me all that work. This is an excellent piece of work I appreciate that and I am very appreciative of the fact that there have been many many people
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The mail has been twenty five to one positive people who have been very very thankful for the fact that They now have a reason to trust
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The Bible they have been utilizing they don't feel like they're constricted We've got to realize that some of the folks who take the
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King James only position can be extremely extremely strong in their denunciation of modern translations and things like that and It can cause real problem in people's lives, so I've been very very thankful for the reception the book has received well
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You have had a good reception. You also have had some rather interesting Opposition text
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Mars writes don't write me again speaking to you Unless in sincere repentance you are a devil
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And I understand well why miss rippling er does not respond to your ridiculous assertions
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Why dignify the lying claims of a servant of Satan can have strong words there?
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I saw the book that you brought in today where Gail rippingly Gail rippling er who wrote
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New Age versions Quotes Samuel talking about how the mighty have fallen referring to me the fact that I broke my shoulders
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I only broke my shoulder, but and Have had people assail my character therefore the mighty have fallen
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These people really take this issue seriously and one of the things you do in your book is you divide
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The King James only people into categories, so you don't paint with a broad brush
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There are people who are very strongly committed to King James version only But they're not going to assail the character of those who have an
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NIV in their hand That's exactly right, and that's a that's a real important distinction to make I am frequently accused
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I'm sure you've experienced the same thing Individuals like that will contact me and you've pain with a broad brush when
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I ask for specifics well I can't give you specifics, but there are those who go way beyond the call and engage in rather nasty
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Calumniation shall we say of anyone who disagrees whatever that means, but there are those who hold the
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King James But not with the type of anger toward others
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And they do utilize different and different arguments and in fact we should distinguish between the two major King James only groups
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You have those individuals who are really King James only in the sense that the King James translation itself is something special about it
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See either inspired and errant its advanced revelation as Peter Ruckman English autographer It is it is a re -inspiration of the
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Bible and then you have what I call TR only individuals TR staying for the textus receptus the
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Greek text is utilized As the basis of the King James and their arguments will be a little bit different They'll have to admit in every conversation.
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I've had of debated da wait I recently debated Thomas Strauss and in every conversation.
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I've had with individuals who defended just the Greek text it Eventually worked around to having the same impact and same effect in other words
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Even when I could present clear and obvious errors in the TR the answer was well
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It's a matter of faith I think it should be pointed out that the TR or the textus receptus the received text is a term
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That as I recall was coined by the Elzaver brothers or Bruton as you would say in Dutch Who wrote in Leiden?
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Their publishers basically and that was a publisher's blur it was an advertisement And it was in 1633 long after the
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King James Version the first edition had been completed They said this is the text that has been received by all therefore textus receptus means received text the problem is the
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TR First of all there's over a hundred different Editions of it and most people aren't aware of that But the
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TR that a lot of King James only advocates have today did not exist until 1894 when Scrivener created it and in fact that text did not exist until 1611 when the
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King James translators Created it there is no one manuscript in the world That reads word -for -word like the
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TR not at all folks is a fascinating book the King James only Controversy you got to get a hold of it.
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It is a resource for a lifetime It's available through the Christian Research Institute actually I was going to charge $15 we throw in some other things over there.
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I'm gonna do something special I'm gonna give it to you for $10 less than what you can buy it in a bookstore I want to put it in your hands
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This is something that you need in your library again the King James only controversy radio offer number three three seven
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By my in -studio guest James White a suggested donation of just ten dollars want to go to our first caller up today
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Dawn Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania listening on W or D done. Welcome. Hi. How you doing?
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I'm really honored to be on your program Hank glad to have you hey this book If anybody's listening, and they've ever been through this if they have a friend in this
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It's worth every penny this book is worth its weight in gold especially for me. I went through this
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I have some guys at work and Yeah, we went through this but One of the problems
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I had was how do you it's almost like you have to witness these people? How do you how do you try to communicate with these people?
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Yeah? That's a good question. How do you communicate without creating? heat Well the heat unfortunately is already there and in fact
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That's that's one of the main problems is that this this whole movement splits churches. It destroys ministries it's a very difficult thing and on that level the heat's already there and Unfortunately with with a can committed
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King James only advocate Who is already thinking and arguing in circles all the facts in the world?
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They're impervious to logical argumentation. There's nothing that you can do at that point you can you can simply present the facts and say now
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Christians who are followers of he who called himself truth should not utilize bad argumentation and illogic we as Christians should have a very high standard of truth a very high standard in what we accept to be true and you can call them to Accept those standards, but you can't force them
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And I think it's important to realize I believe that the King James only movement is a tradition And a lot of people who hold this you know what happens when you start questioning somebody's traditions boy
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I'll tell you the sparks can fly and a lot of these folks Really the major group that believes this are independent
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Baptists and Baptists. I grew up very very conservative Baptist I'm reformed Baptist But the point is that we
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Baptists don't think we have any traditions And those people who don't think they have traditions are the most blind to their traditions if I may sir one other one thing that I really found the most helpful of all was
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I have a 1611 translation or a reprint from Thomas Nelson No, it's like from it's it's 1911 reprint okay, and When I when
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I find those verses that were different from What is printed now compared to what was originally printed their their wholesale changes that were there were made errors which
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Throws the entire inspired argument out. Yeah, that's a really good point in other words King James Version is not
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King James version Well exactly and and what you are carrying today what most of the King James only advocates have today is the 1769
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Blaney Revision which differs in a number of places from the 1611 But I'd like to ask the caller did have you ever shown a
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King James only advocate page 80 where I talk about? Jeremiah chapter 34 verse 16
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I showed him nine different verses and at that point It's like it's like he shut down if this was a pastor of an independent
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Baptist Church, and he was like You know basically like what you said before was you just have to take it on faith right right?
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And it's they're not once confronted. It's like they're gonna retreat into their shell
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Yeah, but you know the good thing is and the answer ultimately to your question is to prepare yourself As though your life depended on it, and if God opens their heart
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Then you can give them answers and use those answers as springboards or opportunities for for Sharing how we really got our
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Bible good talking to you Don want to go to Ross Austin, Texas listening on ki XL Russ welcome
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Hi, Hank and James. It's a privilege to get to talk to y 'all this afternoon I Attended Calvary Chapel here in Austin you were here not too long ago.
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Yeah, I remember yeah I got to meet you all here, and that was a great blessing and I just also like to say that I've been a
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Christian now for nearly I guess four years And I've been a listener of the program for like about the last three and a half years
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And it's it's been a great blessing to my life, and I'd like to thank y 'all for what y 'all are doing appreciate it
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Russ And this is a it's really a good thing that I got to call you today because I had
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This is a subject that I've been kind of studying some lately and I've listened to some tapes of Chuck Smith and In in these tapes he was not
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Really advocating so much that the King James Version was the only Bible that Christian should use, but he was saying that that he believed that the
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Manuscripts that the King James Version was based on or more reliable Then I guess the older like Alexanian right
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Indian manuscript and it suggested some books and I've picked those up and I've Been reading through them
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And I kind of wanted to see if I could get James just to comment on these if he were You know if he was familiar with them one book was by Edward F.
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Hill. Yes, it's called the King James Version defended Yes, I address hills in the book. Okay, and then there was three other books written by a
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Man named David Otis Fuller. Yes, which Bible Society right and I guess also to The question that seems to me that another one that I wanted to ask was when
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There's different readings in the different families of manuscripts Which ones do you feel are more reliable or that we should
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You know, which readings it should you accept? Well, first of all the books that you referenced
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Are our King James? Books Edward F. Hills is addressed briefly in chapter 5 of my book
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He takes a rather unique perspective, but I think it's a very circular perspective.
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It starts with its with its own conclusion The problem with with the perspective that is taken by by most of these individuals is it does start
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Where it ends up it is a circular argumentation and when you examine the Texas Receptus I have
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I have invited a number of individuals who defend it as being the best To interact with some of the most glaring
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Problems in it and I could give you a whole list. It wouldn't mean anything to you I talked about them in the book and They are not really willing to put the
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TR in the same position of examination of something else And that's a real problem when you say when you ask the question
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Well when you have variant readings from different families, which one do you take? Modern Greek texts do not simply say well
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You always take the reading found in this family. You see the practice of textual criticism today involves you in examining every single manuscript in its own context and So there are times when a modern
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Greek text like the Nestle All in 27th, which just came it came out Will take a
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Byzantine manuscript reading and I should explain that the major families are the Alexandrian The Western the
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Caesarean the Byzantine the Byzantine is primarily what the Texas Receptus is there are times when it will take a
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Byzantine reading over against an Alexandrian reading because in the context that is what is suggested a modern textual scholar is going to look both of the external evidence and the
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Internal evidence and so it's not just simply a matter of modern textual scholars throwing the
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Byzantine text out out the door That's just simply isn't the way that it is even though that's normally how it is represented in King James only materials
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That is not how it how it actually works out in practice Okay. Okay.
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Yeah, and I do want to mention that Without putting words in Chuck Smith's mouth
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I go to Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa and I know that Chuck likes the
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KJV best But he has never kicked me out of the church because I'm carrying an
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NIV and there are many Calvary Chapel Pastors that will preach out of NIV or memorize an
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IV. So again, he Really reverences the King James version, but he is not
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Insisting that everybody agree with him on this particular point and and that's really I think the point that we want to get
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People to we're not saying that there's anything wrong with the King James version
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You know the thing that we're trying to say through all of this is that we should have real confidence in the manner through which
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God has Preserved his word to this very day in point of fact our problem It comes to us because we have all the language people language groups on earth today are the richest
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In the blessing of God and having the most number of excellent translations available to us their entire language groups that don't have any
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So they obviously aren't gonna have an argument about which one's best in that situation But we have so many that we have arguments about it when
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I first started studying the King James only issue back in the 80s I was sent tapes by Chuck Smith and I wrote to Calvary Chapel and I got a letter back that said those were older tapes
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Chuck is not quite as convinced of that position now as he was then so on and so forth
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So I've encountered a lot But I would hope maybe you would pick up the book because I do address those issues that you're talking about In the book fairly fairly in -depth good want to go to Jeff Memphis, Tennessee listening on WCRV Jeff.
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Welcome Doing okay I'd like to ask mr. White a question, and I'd like to ask you this
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If I'm searching for absolute inerrant infallible truth, I know you probably already told me or whatever
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But if I'm searching for that, which Bible do I go to? Well, there are a number of Bibles you can go to that's the that's that's the that's the whole issue
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We need to be very careful that we do not sacrifice truth for certainty You see up until there were it was a printed edition of the
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Bible Whenever Christians gathered for over 1 ,400 years in a church
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If you had a manuscript in the person next to you had a manuscript those two manuscripts were not identical to one another
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Does that mean they didn't have God's truth sure? No, it doesn't And in point of fact the when when individuals for example would use the
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Greek septuagint There were many different The septuagint. Yes, the Greek septuagint the
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Greek translation of the of the Old Testament. I didn't know there was one existent There certainly was and in fact
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The New Testament writers quote from it the vast majority of the time. Okay Get away from all those $5 words, where's absolute truth that the absolute truth is in the
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Word of God sir, which one there It's not a matter of which one sir. We're not talking about multiple sir, sir
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We're not talking about multiple Bibles. The Bible was written. There's over 250 different translations out there
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The Bible was written in Greek and Hebrew sir. That is what God revealed his word in we have translations thereof and as the
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King James translators themselves said Even the meanest Translation as long as it is faithful to the original is worthy of the phrase the
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Word of God and I agree with them Okay By the way, let me ask you a question before you ask a question
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Do you think that there are any two Greek manuscripts that agree perfectly, sir?
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Do I think there's any two Greek manuscripts that agree perfectly? Yeah, I hold the Texas Receptus Which which one sir, they're over a hundred of them
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No, we're asking you which which and I'm asking which one do you hold to just so you can be specific?
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See the problem is when you say when when we ask which manuscript what which one are you
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Wanting to invest this absolute perfection in as I explained before when God preserved his word for us
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He did so in such a way that it could not be altered in any fundamental way But he did so in such a way that allowed for textual variation.
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And so I don't believe that there is any one Greek manuscript That's perfect. So you can't ask me that question You're the one who said that you do believe that the
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Texas Receptus is perfect Is that the 1516 edition of Erasmus one of the other four that came after him?
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Was it Stephanus's text was it Bayes's text is a script? Just be specific which one of those alternatives do you choose?
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Baby Okay, so so the so the actually the
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TR is irrelevant if you're saying that you're actually holding to the King James It's ER doesn't really matter. You are a man. I'm a
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King James, man. Okay, you're not a TR man So the TR doesn't matter then right? The TR which
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TR doesn't matter matters to me is that God said he's not the author of confusion And you got these people these churches and the preacher stands up He can't no longer say let's turn in reference
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The problem is if God is not the author of confusion, how come you are so confused about what you're saying right now
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I'm not confused brother. I know God said you don't even know what you've got a hold of the furnace of the earth
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Tried seven times thou shalt be gentle Lord Yes, Jeff. Have you ever even noticed that Psalm 12 6 and 7 which you were just citing there is not in reference to God's words
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It's in reference to his people. Yeah, that's the same thing What's his name Sumner holds to Well, it's not what anybody holds to it's just a plain reading of the test
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It's just a matter of looking at the text that the point is sir. I Recognize your desire to have absolute certainty
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But what I'm suggesting to you is you may have sacrificed truth to have absolute certainty
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Are you aware of the fact for example that the reading of your King James Version of the Bible at Revelation chapter 16 verse 5?
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Did not exist prior to the end of the 16th century anywhere in the world
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Well, let me let me let me explain what I'm saying. You're trying to destroy my faith. No, I'm not. No, sir No, sir.
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Now if your faith everybody's what your book let me ask you something if your faith is placed in falsehoods
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Then that's a faith. I do want to destroy and have it replace the faith in truth because God's truth can examine me true
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Hey Jeff just look you know what you need to try to do for just a few moments Yes, it is is listen.
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Just open your heart in your ears and just listen Even if you disagree just listen in that way
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You can argue with what is said on the basis of what is said rather than what you think he's going to say or what?
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He didn't say just listen for a moment Revelation chapter 16 verse 5 in the
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King James Version the Bible. I mean we all know it It's been turned into hymns and everything says and I heard the angel of the waters.
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I'm sorry verse chapter 15 verse 16 verse 5 and I heard the angel of the waters say thou art righteous
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O Lord Which art and was and shalt be because thou hast judged thus the reading and shalt be
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Did not come into existence until Theodore Beza John Calvin's successor in Geneva when working on the
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Greek New Testament Looked at it and said that doesn't make any sense And I could go into the forms of the words, but he made what's called a conjectural emendation in other words
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He didn't have any manuscripts to back him up But he changed it anyways And he changed the word and if you look at all the all of the translations you look at all the manuscripts that existed for 1 ,500 years of church history
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All of them say which art and was O Holy One Now he changed that he didn't have any warrant to do it, but it ended up in the
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King James Version of the Bible I would suggest to you that if you are unwilling to recognize that the
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King James Version is what its translators itself said it was a Translation done by human beings that is liable to revision that the faith you're talking about has been misplaced
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And I'd like to suggest to you God saved you by his grace not by a translation
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Don't put your faith in a human translation place it in the Savior whose blood avails for your sins, right?
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Okay Hey Jeff, thank you for being as gracious as to be willing to listen as I asked you to I really appreciate that Yes But this is all
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I got to say and I'm not trying to be mean because I really Agree with what you do with the charismatics and the faith healers.
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I think that's a bunch of junk I deal with them down here in Tennessee myself, but let me say this bill God If God hadn't got a perfect Bible Then I mean, what is it all about?
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I mean, can't you understand that if God hadn't got a perfect book the God that floated the art and I know by the way
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We do believe Jeff in the infallibility of Scripture and the inerrancy of Scripture in the originals
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Sir I preach from it all the time, but that isn't that isn't the issue I think people need to understand when you say if you don't have a perfect Bible What you're saying is if you do not have a single inspired perfect English translation of the
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Bible We need to keep these issues clear and we need to make sure that we recognize the
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Apostles didn't think they needed one The Apostles used the Septuagint and there are all sorts of variations in the subject and sometimes they'd quote this the variation were they wrong
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Would you be willing to look into it would you have you read my book My preacher did and he wouldn't he didn't speak too highly of it
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Well, I I understand how that might be but I mean, you know, I study I read a Otis Boomer's book
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I stay on this on my side of the fence. I need to stay on Well, that's just it If you're only on one side of the fence, you can only get one side of the story
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There is there is there is a reason Jeff why the vast majority of Bible believing
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Actively sharing their faith Christian scholars like myself don't agree with your position Because I don't believe that the
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King James is something that its own translators didn't design it to be that's not the issue I think it is
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Do you trust what God said in Hebrew and in Greek to get to you today what he said?
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And is it perfect? Well, hang on one second Jeff because I want to ask you a question here that I think will perhaps
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Help us. Let's talk for a moment about the comma johannium first John 5 -7 this is an argument that's brought up by King James Version only advocates over and over again
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Let's talk about that for just a moment. I think I'll help clarify things for you Jeff. Hang hang Are you familiar with the passage referring to first John 5 7 3?
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Yes, it is Exactly. Yeah, so you're familiar with what's called the comma johannium or the three witnesses
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But I'm familiar with the text of the text itself. Okay. This is a passage of Scripture that even scholars like Dean Burgon who is
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Frequently cited by David Otis Fuller by David by Edward F Hills Recognized was a much later insertion into the text
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In fact, there are no Greek manuscripts prior to the 16th century that contained this reading.
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Let me ask you a question. Yes this passage was not
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Utilized by for example, the early Christians who were fighting against the heretics that denied the
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Trinity or the heretics Who denied the deity of Christ they didn't use it because they didn't have it Were they somehow missing something from your perspective?
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They didn't well God see this is my this is difference between me and you I believe that God Knows when to give and what to give
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You mean you offer apocrypha was in the middle But that that was just because the King James translators said it don't belong here
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Well middle of the text the apocrypha aside. Let's get back to what I was just saying
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There are a number of places I can show you 1st John 5 7 is one of them Luke 2 22 is another one where there are readings in the
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Greek manuscripts in which the King James is translated Hence in the King James that Christians for 15 1600 years had never seen
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Are you saying that the church did not have God's truth until 1611 God?
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Yes, sir So so so so and the door of Revelation closed in 1611 Can you recognize that that is a belief that is completely extra biblical?
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It has no biblical foundation at all Well, and in fact it becomes an object of faith for you and why that might be dangerous
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The Bible says that the Word of God works in you effectually that believe that's true But that doesn't have anything to do with the
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King James translation Well, we could argue all day, but see I'm dealing with these teenagers down here The rock music don't do it for him.
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The drugs don't do it for him And then they come in and am I supposed to give 16 different versions? No, sir
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You give them the Word of God and if and if they understand the NIV better than doing the King James Don't you dare limit them to a translation?
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They can't understand. I'll give them a Bible that takes the blood out Colossians 114 There's another example. Okay, let's talk about that for just a second
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We only have about 30 seconds to talk about it Colossians 114 is an excellent example of a reading that's based on a very small percentage of very late manuscripts again
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It's something the church didn't have and I'd like to point out It's also found over in Ephesians 1 7 in all the manuscripts
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Why take it out of just some if you're alleging a conspiracy here? So in other words the point is the blood is not taken.
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It's not taken out. It's very clearly. I'm out of time Jeff Thanks for being a gentleman with your differences.
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I'm out of time for this edition of the Bible answer man broadcast only controversy the title James White the author a
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Suggested nation of $10. We're making it cheaper than you can buy it in the bookstores for one reason
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We want to put it in your hands. It is a welcome addition to the library of every Christian This is something that will establish your
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Confidence in the Word of God. I like what you say here on page 13 over the 1100 years following Jerome's publication of his
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Latin translation of the Bible Which was known as the Vulgate his work became the most popular Translation in Europe by the early 16th century the
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Vulgate was everybody's Bible It held the position in the minds of Christians that the subjugate had held a millennium before and just as Jerome Himself had ruffled feathers with his new translation
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So along came a great scholar who again upset the apple cart. This man's name was days of Darius Erasmus the prince of the humanists now interestingly enough
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You point out that he dedicated his book to Pope Leo the 10th the same
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Pope who by the way Excommunicated Martin Luther you're going to say the beat goes on.
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It would be funny if we're not so serious Jerome takes the heat for Translating the Vulgate which eventually becomes a standard and then
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Erasmus comes along and takes the heat for Challenging Jerome and for publishing the Greek New Testament then 400 years later
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It is Erasmus work itself in the form of the Texas Receptus which has become enshrined as tradition by the advocates of the authorized version he who once Resisted tradition has become tradition itself the cycle continues
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Will there someday be an NIV only movement we can only hope not now your point
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There is nothing wrong with tradition as long as we don't confuse tradition with truth
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Exactly, and unfortunately all that came from being a church history professor I love talking about history and if we look back at history we see that Christians like their traditions and Once you get used to hearing the
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Word of God in a certain form in fact What you didn't get a chance to look at there is there was a riot a long time ago in Carthage Because Jerome's translation comes out, and it doesn't quite read the same in Jonah instead of saying a gourd grew over his head
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He came up with a castor oil plant, and they had a riot now We Christians have sometimes done some silly things
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And I think that was fairly silly but the fact matter is a lot of us grew up on the King James Translation and we hear
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God speaking to us in that Language and so when new translations come along. It's real easy for us to become very defensive
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Maybe not thinking through it, but it's an emotional thing because God said for God so loved the world He didn't just say
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God loved the world You don't want to change anything because you've heard God speaking to you in this certain type of cadence, and it's beautiful It's rhythmic.
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It's beautiful. It's poetic But we like our traditions and unfortunately we have our traditions challenged
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We tend to become rather emotional really quickly now you believe in full plenary or full
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Inspiration inspiration of the text you believe in inerrancy
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So how is it that you can say? holding to an errancy Holding to the full inspiration of Scripture How is it that you can say that there are not two
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Greek manuscripts that agree exactly? Well, and that's an excellent question because the fact that for a lot of King James only advocates
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It's an oxymoron. They really question the fidelity that I have to the authority of Scripture the problem is the term
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Inspiration and the term inerrancy refers to what God did a long time ago in inspiring the scriptures
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So we're talking about the autograph these the original writings when when Paul sat down and he wrote the
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Thessalonians He wrote a letter to them and what he wrote to them was they are new sauce God breathed
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Now there is no promise anywhere in Scripture And I have read the King James only materials from stem to stern
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But no one has ever shown me a promise in Scripture that says Scripture is inspired and all copyists thereof shall be inspired for the rest of the transmission of the text of the
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Bible I can't find that anywhere and the historical fact the matter is is that God did not deem it proper
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To keep every single manuscript New Testament from textual variation. He didn't do it
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So if he didn't do it historically if our theology forces us to come up with some other concept
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We're making history and God's truth clash against one another and that's a dangerous thing to do the simple fact matter is
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God did promise to preserve his text. It's how he did it to be does he do it by re -inspiring the
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Bible in 1611? Does he do it by? Overriding copyists, so there's one manuscript somewhere out there
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That's absolutely perfect, or did he preserve his text in another way in the way? We described in the previous program we talked about the multiplicity of manuscripts that immediately went out in the world so that the
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Fundamental doctrines the gospel could not be changed could not be altered you couldn't take the resurrection out You couldn't insert some other concept in into it somewhere since the sense within a matter of years of the writing
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New Testament Manuscripts are buried in the sands of Egypt outside the the control of anyone
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God did it that way which I think is far more important than really classical scholars look at us like we just landed from another planet because in Comparison to what they have to work with the reconstruct writings of Plato or someone like that we are so rich.
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It's unbelievable I mean the purity of the text New Testament is incredible example
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Hebrew 724 I deal with it all the time 724 to 25 a deal with it with Mormons where it talks about Christ priesthood
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He holds it up a robber Tom without successors There are no textual variants on that term the
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Greek manuscripts all say the same thing And with 85 % of the of the of the text that's exactly the way that it is
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The point is you are not trying to rid people of their confidence in Scripture rather you are
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Yeah through this book you are saying to people we can have the greatest
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Confidence that God has indeed preserved his word and I the reason that I wrote the book is I had to take away a false
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Confidence that is just simply placed in a human translation and replace it with the truth that God has preserved his word
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He has given us more evidence of the truthfulness of that word more evidence of the transmission of that word than any other ancient text
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Whatsoever he has preserved his word He just hasn't done the way the King James only advocates would like us to believe and if he had
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It would actually have worked or militated against Preserving the truth of the text in point of fact for those who take the the strongest
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King James only position the entire issue of the preservation of Scripture becomes irrelevant because the
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King James is Reinspired is a re -inspiration of Scripture in 1611 who cares what happened up to that? We had a caller and yesterday's program who said they didn't have
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God's Word up until the King James came along That I think undermines the most fundamental assertions that the church has always made
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About the veracity of the scriptures in a sense the gates of hell would have prevailed against very much
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I want to go to our first caller up today Lorraine, San Diego, California listening on KPRZ you're on with James White Call I really appreciate the subject matter.
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I've been going back and forth on this lately With the pastor of mine. I have a couple of questions one is about the question of deity the deity of Jesus and the different versions and Carson's book the
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King James version Yes, a whole chart there about how different versions indicate the deity and others don't write in fact
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I expanded greatly on that chart on page 197 of my own book Okay, it's obvious.
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You answered a lot of questions. I'm gonna have to get that book Also, I have another question what well let me before we leave that I think it's important to point out
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Just so that people don't think we just bypass that one when you're talking about the deity of Christ one of the main
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Objections that is raised by King James only advocates is the allegation the modern translation somehow downplay or attack the deity of Christ And that's why
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I include an entire Chapter chapter 8 is solely on passages relevant to the deity of Christ and the virgin birth because I have dealt with Jehovah's Witnesses for years and I have studied these passages in depth and I think that It's really terribly unfair
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The King James only advocates will play upon a doctrine that all of us Christians believe in deeply and would immediately identify with But in point of fact, it is simply a false accusation to its core and any semi unbiased
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Examination of the facts demonstrates that to be the case that the modern translations like the NIV or the
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NASB are attempting to hide the deity Of Christ in point of fact, dr Kenneth Barker who is the head of the NIV translation center the general editor of the
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NIV study Bible Has said that one of the most consistent criticisms he's received of the
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NIV has been how strongly it proclaims the deity of Christ Uh -huh, which it really does
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I have dealt with Jehovah's Witnesses for many years and most people who do that recognize the single English translation
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That is strongest on the classical passages that teach the deity of Christ is the NIV You know, what's really interesting about this church look the chart
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Lorraine and and working in the book for this chart alone This chart points out where the
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NIV and the NASB are very clear on The deity the
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Lord Jesus Christ and where it's actually absent from the King James Version for example, John 1 18, right?
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Right. John 1 18 is a passage where in the modern translations Jesus described as the unique God and in the
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King James That's the only begotten Son but the chart also Addresses another passage like 1st
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Timothy 3 16 where the King James has God was manifest in the flesh Whereas the modern translations have he who is manifest in the flesh.
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So I think it's very fair It goes very in -depth on that because the deity of Christ is extremely precious to me
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I'm gonna be writing a book for Bethany house on the Trinity. It's something that's very very important to me It's obviously vital to apologetics
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And so I'm not I didn't want to make sure if people realized we deal with the deity of Christ very deeply in regards to Your question because it's very important.
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Did I understand you correctly in saying that the missing passages? Just couldn't be written in Greek Different like NIV apparently is accused of missing certain passages and other scriptures.
01:00:03
Well When we use the term missing realize when you talk when you use the terms like deleted removed
01:00:11
Missing and this is what King James only advocates like to do that sets the King James up as the standard
01:00:17
The question that we always have to ask is what did Paul write? What did John write? What did the original writers have and the
01:00:25
King James Version comes from a family of manuscripts that I describe as a fuller family that is
01:00:31
They came about at a later period of time and they are longer for example the titles of The Lord Jesus if if a the earlier manuscripts have the
01:00:41
Lord Jesus the later manuscripts will have the Lord Jesus Christ They will expand titles or and this is very very common in the
01:00:49
Gospels The scribes that copied the manuscripts very much wanted
01:00:54
Matthew Mark and Luke to say the exact same thing in the exact same way This last Sunday. I preached from Luke chapter 18 and I used in a
01:01:02
Greek text It has the the various gospel writers in columns next to each other and it was fascinating to notice
01:01:08
How the later copyists would try to harmonize? The gospel writers to make them say the exact same thing with the exact same words
01:01:16
So we understand that type of bent when we're copying especially if we're used to let's say the way Matthew does it and we're copying
01:01:23
Luke It would be very easy for us to unconsciously make that type of a change And so the point is not is something been taken out
01:01:31
But was something there originally in the first place and we've got to give the modern Translations credit when they don't have a particular passage.
01:01:39
For example, Matthew chapter 18 verse 11 is not in the NIV Because it's not in the best manuscripts to John chapter 5 verse 4 they will always provide you with those verses in Translation in the footnotes in the translation itself like that stunning of the woman.
01:01:56
Yes Yes, some translations that's removed and when I read it, you know, I feel like it's inspired and I never know what to Think about it because they say that you know, this is only in some
01:02:07
You know translation Well the fascinating thing about that particular story and and again,
01:02:14
I do address that in the book as well Toward the end of the book. I give you the textual evidence for that but The that story itself appears at different places in the
01:02:26
Gospel of John and in some manuscripts It appears in Luke The point is that's the only text of Scripture We have like that that is actually even found in some manuscripts in another book
01:02:37
It seems very obvious because of that because of its absence from the earliest Manuscripts and because the fact it's found at different places
01:02:43
That it was probably a fragment of oral teaching on the part of the Lord Jesus Christ That very early was distributed amongst
01:02:50
Christians and and people wanted to record it in the text and they tried to find a place to Record it and eventually it ended up in John But the fact that it's found in Luke is very very indicative of the fact that John didn't originally write it there at 753 to 811
01:03:04
Luke's really didn't have it in his it is a later edition and I think we need to be just as concerned about additions as Subtractions, but notice again your modern translations do translate the passage for you and provide it for you in footnotes, right?
01:03:18
What? New Bible out and I've seen it out another settings the new century
01:03:26
Bible Familiar with that. Well, actually it's he's using the new century
01:03:33
Text and Then he has his notes along with okay The only thing that I can say about the new century version and I'm going to try to keep this in general as possible
01:03:41
Is I've looked at it some and I do have a problem personally with translations that attempt to make the scriptures simpler than they originally were
01:03:53
In other words, if you're trying to translate a lot at a level lower than the Holy Spirit inspired it you're gonna have to lose something along the way and when you attempt to to Artificially limit the vocabulary that you're utilizing
01:04:07
You're eventually going to be losing something now again I think it's important for everyone to recognize if we would simply use all the resources that are available to us and have multiple versions if we don't learn the biblical languages and I'm going to avoid my normal sermon about the fact that we waste our time doing a lot of other things that we could use
01:04:27
I don't think there's Anything wrong with learning the biblical languages personally, but I'm gonna avoid that sermon for now Even if we don't learn the biblical languages
01:04:35
We have such a wonderful plethora of excellent translations available to us that if you even if you have the new century version and You also have the
01:04:44
NIV and the NASB and the New King James Version and you're studying and you're comparing and contrasting Then you're not going to be led astray by any
01:04:53
Over simplification that one particular translation might have and so that's why I really strongly encourage people to Utilize the resources have multiple translations
01:05:01
I know we all like to have our one favorite Really soft dog -eared Bible that we carry with us and all over the place and I understand that But if we're serious students of the word that we need to utilize multiple translations while we're doing it
01:05:13
Lorraine. Thanks for your call Yeah, absolutely God bless you a related question
01:05:20
Lorraine brings up such great questions mark 16 Often we have the question about the long ending to mark 16 and the short ending
01:05:31
It seems to me that the short ending Just doesn't make any sense it just stops too fast and and You know, you've just illustrated for me without our even discussing it exactly why there is not only a long ending
01:05:48
But a medium ending there are a multiple multitude of endings for mark.
01:05:53
Why would there be? multiple endings for mark the only reason there be multiple endings for mark is that a lot of other people have agreed with you in the past and Again, I address this issue in in in the book
01:06:06
But one thing is for certain that see this is this is a passage where? Majority text advocates that is individuals who believe that the majority of Greek manuscripts should be trusted to give us the accurate rendering
01:06:16
They say here is a classic example of where most of modern scholarship has jumped off the edge of the earth and it's important to differentiate between majority text advocates and King James only
01:06:27
There's a big difference between the two people like Zane Hodges and art farstad would be appreciative if we'd recognize that they are not
01:06:33
You know running around and holding hands with Gail Rippling or individuals like that In fact, they're attacked just as specifically as anybody else but the point is they say look there's only two manuscripts that miss this and There are all these other thousands of manuscripts that have it.
01:06:47
Obviously. Here's an instance where you've got a problem well, I agree with BB Warfield, but the very existence of multiple endings can only be explained with Recognizing that the earliest gospel of mark didn't have any of them and people felt there needed to be one
01:07:04
So they borrowed from the other Gospels or whatever else it might be That but that is a that gets us right into the very practice of textual criticism itself and again my saying that I don't believe that mark 16 9 through 20 is is
01:07:18
Original with mark doesn't come from some terrible horrible liberal theology that I have or something like that It comes from examining the facts and having certain standards as to why?
01:07:29
Why we should believe something was original or not looking at the manuscripts looking at the internal evidence so on and so forth as I?
01:07:34
Explain the book where you would still consider it like a conflation In other words most of what you find there you can find somewhere you exactly most of what you can
01:07:42
Some of which you can't though in fact I wouldn't make a whole lot of points in some way about one thing that I know you're going to point to it's got something to do with My book doesn't sell too well in the hills of North Carolina because of because of my viewpoint on that but And that is a place where textual criticism does impact theology at that point
01:08:03
But I do think it is incredible to hold up the notion that Since mark is arguably the oldest of the
01:08:10
Gospels that it would end Without the appearance of the resurrected Christ and without the Great Commission It's it's definitely understandable why why people feel there needs to be something more than that But we have to before we say well
01:08:23
It's incredible that mark would write it that way could there not have been some reasons why they ended it the way they did They give me some good reason
01:08:35
That's exactly what I want each one of you to do Get into the books are gonna leave you with that cliffhanger
01:08:40
The book we're talking about of course is James White's new book called the
01:08:45
King James only controversy And welcome back to the second half of the
01:08:52
Bible answer man broadcast if you just tuned in my in -studio guest today James White the author
01:08:57
Of the King James only controversy. It's our radio offer all this week It is a tremendous book that you don't want to miss
01:09:05
Reading because it will inspire your confidence in Scripture. We're going right back to our telephone calls
01:09:11
Tim, Newark, California Listening on kfax Tim. Welcome Doing good
01:09:22
Question Well, my comment is I never hear too many people talk about GP Green's versions of the
01:09:31
Bible that he translated modern Kings James and the literal Kings James version which a really excellent versions of I've come through them and His the modern
01:09:42
Kings James that he first did in 1962 In fact, they read that on family
01:09:47
Bible reading fellowship on family radio, and I think it's an excellent translation But I get a little confused with the
01:09:55
Westcott and Hort You know their manuscript and then the Texas Receptus and I know there's so many thousands of manuscripts and I've been listening to this conversation.
01:10:07
I do have his book, but I haven't got to read it yet Although I prefer the Kings James myself
01:10:14
And not many of my brothers use the new Kings James But I used to be hard on the
01:10:19
NIV because sometimes didn't just have the sting of conviction in some of the verses, you know you know,
01:10:27
I know only the Holy Spirit could teach you what the Bible really says, but I really appreciate the book.
01:10:34
I've just bumped through it, but I've learned a lot about this recently through Christian answers and pilgrim complications
01:10:42
Those ministries have a lot of things, you know debate on videotapes and that's and I've learned a lot and it's really amazing how
01:10:49
Gil Riplinger and You know where she is that GA Riplinger is supposed to be God and Riplinger and those kind of things
01:10:57
Tend to fizzle out, you know, they're You know people that would doesn't help their credibility.
01:11:02
Does it? For but yeah, I was wondering if you could comment on those other versions. I just yeah
01:11:08
Well, you know Jay Jay Greene's stuff As far as translations go are real fine for what he's working with.
01:11:16
I have a problem with with his I'm sorry Okay, I have a problem with his books where he attacks modern translations and accuses them of Being Gnostic and so on so forth
01:11:29
I think that his material as far as that goes is is rather poor, but the translations are real good
01:11:34
I appreciate a lot of things that he's done and a lot of the books he's made available as far as Westcott and Hort go they these are the men that King James only advocates love to hate and They are primarily vilified because the fact that their text dethroned shall we say the text is receptive their 1881 edition the
01:11:52
Greek New Testament and Normally what is alleged is well, you know, they were closet heretics or this that or the other thing
01:11:58
They hated the King James and they were just trying to get rid of God's truth and so on So they were a cultist that they were a cultist and and so on so forth
01:12:07
But the problem with all that is let's say all that was true, which it isn't The fact remains that Christian scholars who are not being accused of a cultist
01:12:17
Have the opportunity of examining their work critically every day Could someone please explain to me why generations of Bible believing
01:12:25
Christian scholars would look at their theories and look at their their their texts and agree with their conclusions
01:12:32
If it's in point of fact their conclusions are come from a cultism or heresy or something like that It just doesn't make any sense, but the people just don't think these things through But as I said, those those accusations are false to begin with primarily they weren't fundamentalist
01:12:46
Baptists They were Anglicans, of course, so were all the King James translators They were either Anglicans or Puritans So I'm not sure again if we can't raise the flag of double standards at that point
01:12:56
But there the modern translations are not simply warmed over versions of Westcott and Hort It's very common for Gail Riplinger and others to say, you know
01:13:07
Here's the Westcott and Hort text and here's something bad with it. And therefore all modern translations are bad Modern textual scholars have recognized the
01:13:14
Westcott and Hort were over dependent upon two primary unsealed manuscripts
01:13:20
Sinaiticus and Vaticanus We still think they are extremely important manuscripts today
01:13:25
But not only have we discovered the papyri since then that they didn't have But we've also recognized that in some places they gave too much weight to those particular manuscripts
01:13:35
So there has been correction now if there was some great Conspiracy out there you wouldn't find modern translations correcting
01:13:43
Westcott and Hort's excesses in regards to any of those readings would you and yet that is what you find
01:13:48
What does that mean? It means that modern textual scholars are concerned about determining what John or Paul wrote and not pressing some worldwide conspiracy or new -age infiltration
01:14:02
Yeah, you're Like In fact,
01:14:10
I was on the Monday show that you did earlier this week and I asked, you know The Psalms 110 verse 3
01:14:17
We're in the Kings James It says thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power
01:14:22
And all the Puritans and men of old have always used that, you know for election as a
01:14:27
Calvinist view Because that's Messianic prophecy You know those seven verses in that song and all these other ones talk about be willing in the day of battle
01:14:37
And I was just kind of concerned with that I guess maybe overly concerned but you know
01:14:42
Just thinking of it practically, you know, do you James? Okay, you must be you must be listening to KFX then because I had done a program up there earlier this week again when you're translating
01:14:54
Hebrew the Hebrew terms the Hebrew language is a very Concrete language it is not nearly as complex
01:15:04
As far as its vocabulary goes. And so the point is that The term that is translated as battle or power you see how they're related to one another
01:15:18
Yeah, and see that that's really where the issue is coming from the NIV is not trying to again translators
01:15:26
The shouldn't be sitting around trying to determine how they can best insert their theology into a translation
01:15:32
In fact, that's one of the reasons Hank that I I suggest to people when they're looking at translations One thing that's a positive is if it's done by a committee now
01:15:41
I'm not saying that every single in the translation done by an individual is bad But you and I both know if you're working with a committee
01:15:47
You've got checks and balances are going to help you avoid putting in maybe a little bit too much of your own pet ideas
01:15:53
Yeah, and not one individual can be an authority on every single book in the
01:15:59
Bible and every single aspect of it And so I'm just simply saying in Psalm 110 verse 3 I think the reason the NIV translates this and other words translate other versions translate this way is because the day of Battle is a term as a phrase.
01:16:13
They've probably discovered was a very common usage in the Hebrew if that messes up one of our pet verses
01:16:20
We need to examine how how good our our use of that verse was in the first place really that's that's if our theology is derived from scripture
01:16:28
Then it should be able to be derived from all good translations of scripture Not just one or our theology isn't really good before we go to our next caller
01:16:36
I want to make the point that you can't take all Greek manuscripts and lump them together In fact,
01:16:42
I kind of use the acronym lump to give people sort of a handle on the different manuscripts
01:16:48
You have the lectionaries of the church readings containing Selected portions of scripture then you have the unsulls which are capital letters rather than the the running script then you have the miniscules
01:17:00
Which are in cursive and the papyri? Talk about that for a while.
01:17:05
I would never have been able to come up with that acronym Really I really like that the papyri were the earliest the papyri is a is a type of material
01:17:17
That doesn't last for long periods of time and that's why we found them pretty much only in the dry sands of Egypt But they were probably what the originals were written on themselves.
01:17:26
So it's very fragile in fact, I had an opportunity when the Pope visited Denver to see a page of P66 and I'll have to admit my good friend
01:17:35
Rich Pierce who is with me had to keep dragging me away because the security people kept looking who's that guy drooling over that one
01:17:41
Just you know, I think they're translating this thousands of year old manuscript. I loved it
01:17:46
But we have the papyri manuscripts. They are all written in unsealed text that is in capital letters where there's no real punctuation
01:17:54
There's no space between words and so on and so forth and this particular one I saw in Denver was obviously written by someone who didn't do too well in penmanship in in synagogue school or wherever else they went
01:18:04
They it just really isn't the fanciest manuscript But they are the earliest ones and we have some fragments and there are some arguments but without argument p52
01:18:14
Papyri, 52 is a little teeny scrap about everyone in the audience can see me holding up my fingers about That's right
01:18:21
That's from John chapter 18, which is probably from about 125 ad Very very very very early.
01:18:28
In fact, it threw a whole bunch of problems into a lot of the liberal Theologies that had John way down about the third or fourth century when you find
01:18:35
Sections of his book written a couple centuries earlier really messes up with you messes your theories up But anyways from the papyri you came to unsealed text which were written primarily on vellum sheepskin type type materials animal hides and Obviously, this is when when professional scribes start getting involved
01:18:52
This is what they would utilize because not a lot of us have a bunch of animals in our backyard we can kill for their skins for our books and These have lasted a great deal of time
01:19:00
Codex Sinaiticus Codex Vaticanus Which Desiderius Erasmus actually wanted to make reference to even though these texts are vilified by modern
01:19:08
King James only advocates He wrote to his friend Bombasius to find out if the comma johannium was in the
01:19:13
Vaticanus So he didn't have any problem with it at that point But anyways after about between the 7th and 9th century there was a transition in the type of script
01:19:23
To the minuscules and by far the vast majority of the manuscripts we have are minuscules But they also all come from the same family of texts because Greek was no longer being spoken or used anyplace else
01:19:34
They all come from primarily the Byzantine family and we have literally have thousands of them
01:19:40
Dating all the way up to the 16th century, which of course a minuscule that's dated in the 16th century
01:19:46
That's probably a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy doesn't have in my opinion nearly the weight of P52 or p75 or the other early papyri manuscripts that we have that are much closer to the original
01:19:58
Fascinating study We want to get into how we got our
01:20:03
Bible I've always enjoyed Norman Geisler's a general introduction to the Bible. It's really helpful and interesting information
01:20:11
But he doesn't use acronyms I think he calls them hankronyms
01:20:18
I use them because it just makes it easier for me to catalog the information in my mind so I can come up with it
01:20:23
When I need to because we're doing live radio when I go to our next caller Kurt in California listening on KKMC Kurt welcome
01:20:31
Thank you Hank I Love your ministry and your program and the journal.
01:20:37
I just devour it your kind and thanks for the call I I I've talked to a few people.
01:20:43
I'm not King James only only I've been reading the Bible pretty seriously for about 50 years
01:20:48
And I've used most of them, you know starting with King James when I when
01:20:53
I started that's all it was and Most of the modern translations, you know, I really like the
01:20:59
NIV I'll never forget the first time I read the New Testament NIV New Testament and there were various passages that I had been reading, you know for years and years and years and Never really they just sort of laid there
01:21:13
But the first time I read them in the NIV I went aha And I I think it really
01:21:20
I think it probably comes closer to being you know in our heart language Modern American English my question
01:21:26
I I've dealt with several King James only people and I just I've just about given up, you know
01:21:32
I think it's beyond rationality, you know, it's just no no way to to you know to communicate
01:21:38
Well, you you got it again as James does in the book distinguish between King James version only people because some of them
01:21:46
Do not want to be confused with the facts their obscurantist Gil Rippling vertex Mars people like that But there are others who are willing to listen to the evidence and also are not denouncing people who carry an
01:22:00
NIV as heretics Well one thing I found useful. I've compiled a list of some of the you know, more obscure words from the
01:22:09
King James. Oh, you have a list like that, too Huh, I like to ask them, you know, what what are what are fridges, you know, and what are patches and we're fetching a compass
01:22:18
Yeah, the thing but actually my real question I Like to know what your opinion is.
01:22:25
Dr. White. I haven't read your book yet, but I want to get it read it I'd like to know your opinion on the majority text
01:22:33
Okay. Well, we need to be careful. It's not doctor It's professor because I'm sure we have some folks listening who will write long newsletters about my faith in fake degrees
01:22:43
Anyway Anyways, well, you know, I just did a program with art farstad sitting right next to me debating against King James only advocates
01:22:55
And so you're probably familiar with the dr. Farstad. Dr. Hodges. They have majority text out. Dr. Maurice Robbins and their 1985 book right.
01:23:02
Dr. Maurice Robinson has a majority text out. These are individuals First of all, I'd like to say have always been
01:23:08
Christian scholars in their contacts with me They've always been very helpful. They've never condemned me for disagreeing gentlemen
01:23:14
They've been gentlemen and they are there they should be distinguished very strongly from from those individuals that are not
01:23:22
And I won't go any farther than that, but I disagree with their perspective And I guess
01:23:28
I should define the the perspective and that is that Functionally, the majority texts are determined by looking at what the majority of the
01:23:40
Greek manuscripts say and if if you have a reading that's found in 2 ,000 manuscripts and a reading that's found in only 100 manuscripts
01:23:50
The 2 ,000 manuscripts is the one that you're going to take and I understand a lot of the arguments
01:23:56
Pickering has has produced stuff on this and I am familiar with what the arguments are
01:24:01
But I do not believe that for example Pickering's complex mathematics can be applied to the real world of what scribes did when they copied manuscripts and Furthermore, I really believe that it's it's sort of self -evident.
01:24:14
I think that a manuscript that is much closer to the original Carries more weight than the 10th generation copy of a manuscript farther down the road
01:24:25
And I really believe that as you look at the history of the world You see that the Muslims taking over the
01:24:31
North Africa all the way into Spain Palestine The only place that where Greek is left being a valid language is in the
01:24:38
Byzantine area and so the manuscript tradition that developed there, which I believe you can demonstrate is a is a
01:24:45
Secondary manuscript tradition in many ways not in all places But in many ways the secondary manuscript tradition that of course becomes the majority text in the minuscule text
01:24:54
We were just discussing. I don't think though that counting noses is going to determine what the original text was
01:24:59
I have a problem with that But one thing that we do need to emphasize if you sit down with a
01:25:05
TR If you sit down with the majority text if you sit down with my Nestle all in 27th
01:25:10
UBS fourth edition if you use solid rules of exegesis if you pay attention to context if you allow all the scripture to say
01:25:18
What it says you will not derive a different message from any one of them
01:25:24
That is vitally important to emphasize you are not going to get a different gospel in a different belief whether you use the majority text
01:25:32
TR What are the modern trends modern Greek text and with that I'm going to move along Do want to mention before we go to our next caller that our board is just jammed
01:25:41
We're going to stay in if you agree in studio for an extra hour. I'll take you out to dinner How's that good?
01:25:47
We'll stay here and we'll continue taking your calls Try to get every one of you an opportunity to talk to my in -studio guest
01:25:53
James white He of course wrote the book the King James only controversy It's available through the
01:25:59
Christian Research Institute a suggested donation of $10 Which is very cheap for a book that is is clear compelling it really deals with the issue to well done and Available through the
01:26:13
Christian Research Institute want to go to our next caller Ken Orlando, Florida listening on WTLN.
01:26:19
Welcome. Hey, thanks. Thanks for having me on a show Glad I got through I have two questions for the professor there
01:26:26
One question is I have a friend and I was up visiting him on vacation and he
01:26:33
Got into a gun and says that the septuagint was corrupt You apparently read a book or rather read from an author.
01:26:41
I said it's up to it. That's correct I want as a I should say I'm sorry. It's corrupt
01:26:47
Does the what does the professor white have to say about what about the septuagint?
01:26:52
Well, the septuagint I think is is a vital Vital translation of the Bible for one very obvious reason and that is that the
01:27:00
Apostles Quoted from it all the time. In fact, I just was noticing as I was working on Romans chapter 3
01:27:08
That that long passage where Paul concludes and talks about poison under their lips and so on so forth
01:27:13
Guess what that comes from comes directly from the subject It's not in the Hebrew and yet Paul cited it and so we
01:27:19
I think again if we're going to use biblical Standards, we're gonna have to ask the question. Well, what are the
01:27:25
Apostles doing here now just just for other people explain what the Septuagint actually is it is the
01:27:32
Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament that Started to be translated around 250 years before Christ the
01:27:40
Pentateuch. The first five books are done very very well They were obviously done very professionally other books in the
01:27:46
Septuagint Differ from one another in the quality. Jeremiah is very bad. Isaiah is very good
01:27:52
So it sort of depends on where you are But the simple fact matter is it was the Bible used by non
01:27:58
Hebrew speaking Christians outside of Palestine for a very very very long time and the Apostles utilized it as well
01:28:04
And so when someone says something is corrupt What do they mean by that?
01:28:10
Do they mean that it has been purposely altered or do they mean that it has textual difficulties? The Septuagint has textual difficulties.
01:28:16
No one denies that But does that mean that the Septuagint has been purposefully corrupted?
01:28:23
That's the big difference between the two and the King James translators themselves I hope everyone will take the time to read in fact,
01:28:30
I quote from in the book, but if you ever get a chance to read the the Introduction to readers that the
01:28:35
King James originally carried you'll discover that they talk about the fact that they utilize the
01:28:40
Septuagint They compared the Septuagint If the King James translators did it certainly I think we have a warrant to do so as well
01:28:47
Okay So so my response to the person would be what does he mean by what does he mean by being corrupt?
01:28:56
Correct. Yeah, because what he was saying was that he was well You know Septuagint was written by supposed to have been written by 70 scribes, but it was 72 scribes
01:29:05
Those big yeah, and and that's where he was I guess where's him or the author one is trying to draw a conclusion that if there's 72 then how can we trust the
01:29:15
Septuagint. That's straining. Yeah, that's really straining Especially a little bit especially because the letter that they're referring to there that gives the number of scribes who are allegedly involved
01:29:25
Is a later embellishment and scholars don't believe that's the actual story about how it happened
01:29:30
The Septuagint that we have today developed over time, but there is one thing I'd like to address Peter Ruckman and Samuel Gipp Actually teach their people
01:29:39
They're very extreme King James only advocates that there was no Septuagint at the time of Christ that origin made it up despite the fact that we have fragments the
01:29:47
Septuagint that exists before origin, but there was no Septuagint and Why does it read the same as many of the passages in New Testament pure coincidence according to them?
01:29:56
Okay? We'll leave it at that Ken Yeah You pass this one to Matthew chapter 5 verse 22,
01:30:10
I think it is sermon on the Mount. Yeah. Yeah, he says And the King James. Yes is angry with a brother for without cause without cause judgment
01:30:18
Yeah, and the same passage in the NSA via an IV He was saying why why is the without cause omitted from those two versions the question, right?
01:30:27
okay, thank you very much the question and and let me let me lay it out the The King James version
01:30:33
Matthew 5 22 But I say unto the whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger the judgment
01:30:39
The NIV at the same place by tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment the phrase
01:30:44
Without cause is not found and again notice notice how it's always presented. It's deleted
01:30:50
What does that do that makes the King James the standard the issue is is the Greek?
01:30:55
Reading the best Greek reading and when scholars look at things like that they not only look at the manuscript evidence, but they also ask the question would this passage have caused a problem to a scribe and The simple blanket condemnation whoever's angry with his brother is subject to the judgment is a very very strong Statement especially the fact that the
01:31:15
Lord Jesus was angry Was he not and so the tendency on the part of later scribes is to is always toward orthodoxy
01:31:22
It's trying to smooth things out trying to take care of alleged contradictions When most of the time the scribe just simply isn't really understanding what's going on in context
01:31:32
We understand what Jesus is talking about we understand that this does not contradict Jesus being angry with a righteous indignation
01:31:39
But what later scribes are trying to do is to try to sort of help us out with that And so it's not a matter of they're deleting something and trying to make
01:31:45
Jesus a liar something like that the question is what did? Matthew right what reading best explains the others that's the question and that's why it's very important for us to understand the concept of Conflation now that is a sort of a technical term explain it for listeners
01:32:00
Conflation is where we have many examples of the fuller text the fuller text where where the?
01:32:07
The scribes if for example they had two manuscripts in front of them and one had one thing and one had the other their natural tendency was to keep both of them and So this the text would become
01:32:18
Larger because they're afraid to lose either one and frequently you couldn't go back and ask the guy who would copy this manuscript before what?
01:32:24
Why did you put this here, but why did you put this in the margin for example? maybe the guy made a note in the margin you stick it in your text because you would want to maintain everything that was there and Another reason why the
01:32:36
Byzantine text is longer is because of the fact that we like to use Longer terms when we're pious
01:32:43
I remember doing a radio program, and we were talking about Mormonism this lady called in and said You you all are wonderful.
01:32:49
I like what you're doing you hear that all the time Y 'all whenever everyone calls in says, I love what you're doing They're coming after you, but she says you keep saying
01:32:58
Jesus said this and Jesus said that What you need to say is the Lord Jesus Christ said this and she was a nice Christian lady
01:33:06
She meant it quite seriously But that type of piety is very much at play in the later manuscripts of the
01:33:13
New Testament And what the scribes are doing as well in the expansion of titles and it gets to actually in some places
01:33:19
It gets absurd you have I noticed across the way there Metzger's comes Metzger's work on the on the New Testament He has some examples in there where at the book of Revelation for example
01:33:28
The title given to John and descriptions of John end up taking about a paragraph and some later ones the beloved theologian
01:33:35
Apostle disciple and it just gets long and long and long and long we have a lot of examples that happen for everybody
01:33:40
Hanging on right now. I want you to be patient. I'm going to get to you. We're going to stay here as long as it takes this is a
01:33:48
Fascinating subject and again, I highly recommend that everybody get a hold of the book
01:33:53
King James only Controversy by James White now we talked about the word Controversy and Walter Martin was famous for saying controversy with the sake of controversy is sin
01:34:03
Controversy for the sake of the truth is a divine command I think that this is controversy for the sake of the truth
01:34:08
There are people on the other side of the coin. However, who have really taken shots Not only at you but also at me
01:34:15
Gil Rippling Gertex Mars and others who have basically Branded us children of the devil most definitely and that is really the motivation if anyone wants to ask question
01:34:26
James White Why did you write this book? I wrote this book because the King James only controversy splits churches
01:34:33
It damages ministries and it disrupts the peace of the Church of Christ And it does so on the basis of falsehoods and ignorance
01:34:40
And that's why I wrote the book because I know of churches that have been damaged severely
01:34:46
I get letters all the time from people who've read the book that relate to me what happened to them in their churches and When something touches the local church
01:34:54
That really is of a concern to me. And that's why I wrote the book I appreciate that and of course the local church is the
01:35:00
God ordained means for evangelism That's where we worship God in spirit and in truth That's where we have fellowship with one another and that's where we're equipped to go out and reach a lost in searching world
01:35:11
This is one of the tools that I want to put in your hand so that you will become an equipped Christian Always ready to give an answer a reason for the hope that lies within you with gentleness and with respect
01:35:22
I want you to equip yourself the time will come where someone's going to ask you a question whereby you're going to have to Demonstrate that the
01:35:30
Bible's divine rather than human in origin Let me say that this book will really help you in that process
01:36:10
From Southern, California. Welcome to the Bible Answer Man broadcast I'm your host Hank Hanegraaff president of the
01:36:16
Christian Research Institute with a special broadcast in store for you today We got so many calls on the
01:36:24
King James only Controversy the switchboards lit up all the time that we asked
01:36:30
James White to continue on with us And he's in studio today as we continue talking about the
01:36:36
King James only controversy You want to join us on the broadcast? Remember you can do it the US and Canada by simply dialing toll -free eight hundred eight two one four four
01:36:45
Nine Oh our address the Christian Research Institute box 500
01:36:51
San Juan Capistrano, California zip code 92 693 and remember our telephone number seven one four eight five five nine nine two six
01:37:01
If you're ordering materials or making a donation using Visa MasterCard or the Discover card We have a toll -free number available to you that number eight hundred four four three ninety -seven ninety -seven remember if you're contacting our
01:37:16
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01:37:23
Sixty -three, and if you're calling toll -free, we have a number for you to dial eight hundred six six five
01:37:30
Fifty eight fifty one that's in British Columbia and Alberta only in Canada delighted that you've joined us for the broadcast as Always delighted to have
01:37:40
James R. White in studio with us. He is a scholar He is also a great author and I really appreciate the work that you have done with this superb book
01:37:52
Which dr. Ji Packer calls sober? scholarly courageous
01:37:59
Convincing and courteous Delighted to have you it's gonna be with you a great book
01:38:04
And again, as you know, the studio has been lit up since you've been here
01:38:10
This is a book which is country Controversial no doubt you have taken a lot of hits and I noticed that not only
01:38:18
Gil Ripplinger who went after you In New Age Bible versions
01:38:24
But also has gone after me in her new book King James version ditches blind guides
01:38:32
And I guess you and I are blind guides that are leading people into the ditch She talks about the fact that since I took on her book on the
01:38:40
Bible answer man broadcast all kinds of things have befallen me broken shoulders and varied tribulations and She says quoting 2nd
01:38:50
Samuel chapter 1 how the mighty are fallen in the midst of battle But I only have a page devoted to me
01:38:57
You have 20 whole pages or more devoted to you I and I've even got cartoons of people sitting at desks with a knife hacking up Bibles with Pictures of Westcott and Horton the background with halos.
01:39:07
So I It's really amazing to me and it's very unfortunate The amazing thing to me about that particular publication is that whenever someone is cited?
01:39:16
There is no reference given you can't check anything out You can't go and look and see if there's anything been taken in context or anything like that And it's it's a it's a true shame
01:39:24
And I hope that people will see this type of thing and realize my goodness So what type of venom is causing a person to do this type of thing?
01:39:33
Can't we deal with this in a in a Christian attitude? And I really tried to do that in the King James only controversy to what my question why is this kind of vitriolic language?
01:39:43
well Amongst those who are followers of people like dr. Peter Ruckman. They consider it to be almost a example of prophetic activity and so like Elijah mocking the the prophets of Baal or something like that and so They just consider themselves to be speaking.
01:39:59
Honestly, I can say they just don't have any manners, but They really view it that way and I think some of the folks who take a leadership position
01:40:07
I mean Gil Riplinger said that to her To her GA Riplinger meant
01:40:13
God and Riplinger and I really think that she does believe that God has revealed to her some tremendous conspiracy and Anyone who would question her even a man like David cloud who is a strong King James only advocate comes in for the nastiest attacks
01:40:26
By Gil Riplinger why what what can explain that? Well, if you really think that God has given you a position of leadership and exposing the controversy
01:40:34
Then anyone who questions you is automatically a part of that conspiracy as well as a cultic mentality She sort of holds her book out to be as being a inspired version itself
01:40:45
Well, you know when she says God and Riplinger she would she would of course not say that it did Well, it's not inspired like the
01:40:51
Bible, but if you question anything I have never found her to be willing to admit any error
01:40:56
In fact when I have documented her errors She has always responded by just simply covering them over and not admitting that she made any mistakes whatsoever
01:41:05
And so it's it's a shame But what really bothers me Hank is
01:41:10
Okay, I can understand how some people be taken in by conspiratorial books like that, but I know solid
01:41:17
Individuals who have been in good churches have good backgrounds that have been thrown off base by this book
01:41:23
I've heard of entire churches that have had NIV burning parties After sermons based upon things like this book how that concerns me.
01:41:31
How can anybody though that is rational and Sentient take this book seriously, for example, she's got a section called acrostic algebra page 148
01:41:41
Yeah, I know well, the problem is These types of writings feed upon the often complete ignorance
01:41:52
That Christians have about the history and the transmission of the Bible When was the last time and maybe in your churches is this is the the exception?
01:42:02
But when was the last time you heard any real serious discussion? About why there are differences in translations where the
01:42:09
Bible came from the process American Christianity doesn't talk about things like that. There's a lot more exciting things to talk about aren't there?
01:42:16
You know, that's a great point because I think due to the fact that we are not only Biblically illiterate but historically illiterate this kind of rhetoric
01:42:27
Can be circulated without any opposition Well almost no opposition. There's a few of us out here bravely waving the flag going.
01:42:35
No, this is untrue But you are exactly right Most modern American Christians are a historical church history for them ended about 25 years ago
01:42:42
And with my mom or my dad or something like that And so the whole background of how these things came to us
01:42:48
It's just not something that we're overly concerned about and it leaves us open on many fronts for this type of deception this type of false information and most people
01:42:56
Would not even know where to go to look up the references to find out if they're being accurately given and a lot of us
01:43:01
As long as a person says Jesus three times We'll just trust they're giving the information right the first time anyways, right? And so you end up starting buying into these things and and if we role -played and I sat here and I could
01:43:12
Selectively choose the verses that I wanted to look at and compare your NIV or NASB with my
01:43:17
King James I can make it look really bad if I was selective and if I want to just give one perspective
01:43:23
That's why we need to be people as you you know in all of apologetics people who listen closely to arguments
01:43:29
Who reason closely? We need to be people with a sober mind as the scripture says Yeah, this is one of the things that we're trying to do at the
01:43:35
Christian Research Institute I kind of define it in three words top pop and slop apologetics.
01:43:42
I think it's very important for you to do top Apologetics so that you really get the good information
01:43:47
Then you popularize it in other words You try to communicate it to people in such a way that they can grasp the concepts
01:43:54
You're not playing keep away over their heads if you don't have top Apologetics eventually what you're gonna have a slop apologetics, and that's what we don't need we have too much
01:44:04
Within the church today of what's called slop Apologetics where people have just enough information to be dangerous
01:44:13
And they very very frequently utilize arguments against others that have turned upon their own position
01:44:19
We refute them as well. The double standards does not advance the cause of Christ We're gonna go right to our phone callers
01:44:24
There's a couple of things that I want to say though before we do the first is that it is true that many
01:44:32
King James Version only Advocates believe that there were autographs in Greek and we have now the 1611 autographer in the
01:44:43
English language people who are followers of probably the most vociferous Leader in the
01:44:48
King James only movement that is dr. Peter Ruckman Who will say over and over again that the originals are irrelevant that you?
01:44:56
Correct the Greek and the Hebrew on the basis of the English and when you've done that you have really completed the circle
01:45:03
I mean there is no way to assail that in any logical or rational way because you have you have made the
01:45:08
King James something That the Bible doesn't promise is ever going to make it the standard you make it the standard of all things and and you cannot
01:45:14
Discuss advances and on our understanding of what Greek terms mean you can't talk about manuscripts. That's all
01:45:20
Irrelevant completely irrelevant one thing that I think that many King James Version advocates only advocates
01:45:27
I should say don't recognize is that there are many King James Versions out there and so you have to ask the question
01:45:36
Which King James Version are you talking about and we're not only talking about the very many revisions that have gone around Because there's one that's primary today the 1769 edition, but in an earlier program
01:45:49
I was starting to ask a person about Jeremiah 34 16, which I talked about in the book Where you will be able to find if you if we right now just went around the offices here and pulled the
01:46:00
King James is down Off the off the shelves Half of them would have one reading there and half of them would have the other and you'd find some from the same publisher
01:46:07
That would have both readings Now once you've made the King James the standard. What do you do now
01:46:13
I? Have asked King James only advocates, which is the proper word the difference is simply between he and ye
01:46:19
It's not a big deal But if you've made the King James a standard you can't go back and look at the Hebrew the
01:46:24
Hebrews plain is it's not like We don't know what the original said, but you can't go back to that without betraying your own position
01:46:31
And it is a it is a passage you can utilize if you need to utilize it to demonstrate to an individual
01:46:37
You have no way of answering that question Because you have made something a standard that was never meant to be a standard in the first place
01:46:43
Yeah, very well said want to go to Jason in Jefferson City, Tennessee listening on WRJZ Jason welcome hi um
01:46:52
I don't want to thank you for a let me on your show Stanley taking time out of your own personal life To answer these questions
01:46:58
And my question my question is this I had a little discussion with my roommate the other day I've kind of fallen away, and I have a lot of questions
01:47:05
My question was you guys were talking earlier about dictated dynamic views, and how you have to have kind of a mix those together
01:47:12
And I was wondering if if dictator dynamic view You know holds true, then then also what about like at the beginning of the
01:47:21
Bible How how dictated dynamic view Relates to the oral tradition and our liability of like the oral tradition to the writing and then to like the split canons of the
01:47:31
Bible the Hebrew canon Alexandria canon Before you answer to a little bit of defining your yeah, there's got to be a lot of definition there first of all when you're
01:47:42
Talking about dictated dynamic. Are you talking about the difference between the formal equivalency translation?
01:47:48
Which is very literal and the dynamic? Is that really where you're going there or or is your question a little bit different than that because when you start getting into?
01:47:57
Canon issues, that's a whole nother another area there. Well. I guess it's more of like a progressive thing because like The dictated dynamic view that that's too the way
01:48:06
I was I was taught that two different ways of looking at the Bible whether it was it was man -written or God written, okay?
01:48:14
Okay, I had a feeling that's what you're referring to And I think we need to to step back and define some terms you're talking now not about methods of translation of the
01:48:24
NIV or the NASB you're talking about aspects of inspiration that is where you're talking about dictated the idea that the words themselves were dictated to the writers or Dynamic where there are thoughts or concepts that are presented to them which they express in their own terms
01:48:41
And that's a very very different thing from The issue of how we translate the scriptures now
01:48:47
I don't believe in either one of the two that you gave me Because believing in plenary verbal inspiration does not mean that God turned people into automatons and overrode their natural stylistic expressions
01:49:01
Paul's grammar anyone who is for example translated Ephesians knows that the writer of Ephesians didn't write first John on the level of grammar
01:49:10
God used Paul and his talents God used John and his talents so on so forth and so the idea of dictation
01:49:17
Like a like a stenographer or something like that It's not what we mean when we talk about plenary verbal inspiration but neither do we mean
01:49:24
Dynamic in the sense that just simply thoughts and concepts are impressed upon the mind of a person and he's left to express them in His own frail and human terms and so we're talking about very different things there at that particular point
01:49:37
So if it's not either one of those, what is it? Well, we talk about plenary verbal inspiration and we believe that God is big enough to know you and I and to From eternity past have chosen to utilize us and our situations in our life situation
01:49:54
Which is under his control? to be the conduits through which he gave his revelation and when we look at the
01:50:01
Psalms for example We hear the heart cries of the people of God as they are going through persecution difficulty
01:50:07
We recognize that obviously God uses people in their life where they are when he was giving his word and I certainly have been very thankful for that because I was able to then enter into those prayers when
01:50:18
I too was going through those things and if it was just simply a Some like a dictionary or something like that just laid out truth one truth two to three
01:50:27
It certainly would not minister to me the way that the Word of God actually know what you're really saying Is the Bible's dynamic rather than static?
01:50:34
It's dynamic in the sense that and we're using the same term though in three different ways Which we need to be careful about it is not simply a a list of rules for us
01:50:42
God decided to reveal himself in a written form out of people's lives because we all have to live his word not just simply study a
01:50:51
Book of Rules and and attempt to apply those now in regards to the early part of Genesis I I I guess if you recognize where I'm coming from there, then
01:51:02
I I wouldn't have a problem I wouldn't believe that there's a problem in regards to God's person
01:51:09
Preserving his word in its as it is actually written with oral traditions So on so forth and in regards to the issue of Canon.
01:51:17
It is very common and Geisler and Nix do a wonderful job on this subject in the general direction of the
01:51:23
Bible They frequently cite from another work the Old Testament Canon New Testament Church by Beckwith not the
01:51:29
Beckwith it's a different Beckwith But anyways that pretty well debunks the
01:51:34
Alexandrian versus Palestinian Canon concepts of the Old Testament and This is a much earlier.
01:51:41
That's really about a hundred year old scholarship there And we were talking about some difference there you need to get Get those books and take a look at them and see where we are now
01:51:48
Jason Thanks for your call before we go too far over people's heads. Let's go to David in Virginia listening on WAVA David.
01:51:55
Welcome Yes, thanks Hank. First of all, let me start by saying I really appreciate your show
01:52:00
I mean that from the bottom of my heart. I've had many questions over these several months
01:52:06
I've been listening to your show and it seems like you always get around to them sooner or later and This particular topic is one that is very close to me
01:52:15
I attend an independent Baptist Church and we are They are primarily
01:52:22
King James only advocates and I've been exposed to quite a bit of literature of holding that position and Want to ask some questions
01:52:33
Two questions actually first of all on Robert Tyndall the
01:52:38
Tyndall Bible. I Understand that 80 % of the King James Bible Is compromised from the
01:52:46
Tyndall Bible It's comprised you mean comprised. Yes Yes, Tyndall had the greatest single impact upon the
01:52:54
New Testament portion, especially of the King James You also have the other great Bibles that exist in that time.
01:53:00
That would be the Bishops Bible and the Geneva Bible which were also very very Important and as the
01:53:07
King James translators themselves said we're taking a good translation and making it better Okay my second question would be with the
01:53:17
Dead Sea Scrolls with the newer translations how much impact has the
01:53:23
Dead Sea Scrolls had on the newer translations and What how valid are the
01:53:28
Dead Sea Scrolls? Well, it depends on which Dead Sea Scrolls you're looking at What the textual characteristics of them are they have been taken into consideration by for example the
01:53:38
NIV especially when they join With the Targums or the Septuagint and having a reading that is different from the
01:53:44
Hebrew or especially when the Hebrew reading itself is very difficult or obviously corrupt and so I think it's it's
01:53:52
Again, it's to be assumed that Christian scholars will use all the best material that is available to them to do the best job that they possibly can do and in this situation if the
01:54:03
Dead Sea Scrolls can provide to us an earlier glimpse either at the Hebrew Text or at some variant reading or something like that That is helpful to us in shedding more light upon the text then by all means utilize them
01:54:14
James Isn't this another classic example? We find the Dead Sea Scrolls they predate the early extent text the
01:54:22
Masoretic text by about a thousand years In this another great example of how we ought to have confidence in the
01:54:28
Word of God because we see that there are no substantial differences There are the the
01:54:34
Dead Sea Scrolls provide us with a tremendous amount of insight into how the text Was transmitted during that period of time.
01:54:41
I think it's important to note that for example the book of Isaiah You have an almost exact correspondence the book of Jeremiah is very very very different in the
01:54:52
Septuagint for example from the Hebrew texts and so we need to look at everything all at once and Christian people don't have anything to fear from the facts and the truth
01:55:02
I don't know why there's so many people that are afraid of it But every time we have dug into it certainly there have been times when it seemed like there was something that was contradictory to our beliefs contradictory to our faith
01:55:12
But the more and more we've delved into it the more we've discovered how true God's Word really is now
01:55:19
Is it uncomfortable sometimes? Yes, it's uncomfortable sometimes But who are we really when you think about it to sit back and think we've got it all figured out right now
01:55:28
No one can ever improve upon what you and I understand. There's a tremendous amount of modernistic arrogance in a lot of us today
01:55:34
No one's ever know as much as we know. Yeah. Well, there's still things we've got to learn too True.
01:55:40
Well, thank you very much for taking my call guys. I appreciate that Thanks for your call your kind comments want to go to Pete in Winnipeg Manitoba listening on K or CK JS.
01:55:53
Welcome Pete. Yes. How you doing? Good. How are you? Fine fine first time caller by the way.
01:55:59
Thank you so much. I've been listening to your program Oh, I guess for about half a year now.
01:56:05
Well, great to have you with us and I appreciate it I've a few questions here
01:56:12
I've been doing a little bit of work on this not an awful lot Like from the
01:56:18
King James Version to the to the NIV The Missing can you explain to a layman why there are verses
01:56:31
Missing yes, I can in fact if you can track down the book sometime There's an entire section on that beginning on page 156
01:56:38
There's a chart on 157 that goes through a number of the passages that are quote -unquote missing
01:56:43
And again, I just want to make sure we we all understand you've probably heard me say it's a number of times already But when we use the term missing we're setting up the
01:56:51
King James as a standard there And the issue from the vast majority of the passages that we have reference to for example
01:56:58
Matthew 18 11 is a passage that is frequently utilized. There are a number of others where you have
01:57:04
In fact, I just if anyone is concerned Matthew 17 21 18 11 23 14
01:57:11
Mark 11 26 Mark 15 28 Luke 17 36 and Luke 23 17 are the specific single verses
01:57:19
That will not be found in the main text of the modern translations and that particular listing is found on page 155 of my book
01:57:25
What is the reason well in almost every single one of those situations? Those are verses that appear in another one of the
01:57:32
Gospels and what we have happening over I'm sorry, but we have happening over and over again
01:57:38
Is the tendency on the part of scribes when you are say relating the story of the rich young ruler
01:57:48
You want Matthew Mark and Luke to all say the same thing Now I mentioned
01:57:54
I was preaching from this passage from a parallel Greek translation Only Matthew tells us he was young and only
01:58:00
Luke tells us that he was a ruler and Mark doesn't tell us either one But guess what? You will find
01:58:06
Later scribes making amendations to all of them to try to bring them into consistency with one another
01:58:12
It is simply a part of the of the standard practice of scribes try to make everything harmonized
01:58:17
And so what you have is the Lord's Prayer for example big -time example Luke's version is much shorter than Matthew's Why do we assume that Matthew and Luke had to write the exact same thing?
01:58:28
Why do we assume Jesus only said this once? These are assumptions that we operate on the scribes operate on that are bad assumptions and so many of these passages
01:58:38
It's not a matter of deleting them The issue is there's a clear effort of harmonization on the part of later scribes that inserted them in later
01:58:46
Manuscripts to make everything look the same Pete with that I'm coming up to a station break if you want to hang up week or hang on I should say we'll pick you up in the second half of the broadcast
01:58:58
And welcome back to the second half of the Bible instrument broadcast I'm your host a category of president of the
01:59:03
Christian Research Institute. I'm in studio today with James R. White He is a scholar in residence at Grand Canyon University He's the author of the
01:59:13
King James only controversy a book. That's a must -read Norman Geisler says this is the best book in print on a topic too often riddled with emotion and Ignorance when
01:59:24
I endorsed this book on the back cover. I said a clear compelling and Conclusive case
01:59:30
I had to alliterate this of course contradicting the claims of the King James Version only advocates your confidence in God's preservation of Scripture through credible translations such as the
01:59:40
NIV and the NASB will indeed be Solidified say you won the award for the most kind of single kind.
01:59:46
I can't help myself Yeah, you know we left the first half of the broadcast we were talking to Pete, I think you're still hanging
01:59:53
Pete Are you there? Yeah your follow -up? Yeah? Yeah, go ahead, okay?
01:59:59
another quick question That uh yes, I caught part of the show there.
02:00:06
Oh This is way in the beginning, okay I have caught the tail end of something about one of the translators of the
02:00:13
NIV was a lesbian Well here's the point that I made I made the point that we air on Two ends of the spectrum if we get into rhetoric rather than dealing with reason
02:00:25
I pointed out that there are those who want to say something negative about the King James Version And so they point out that James the first who commissioned the project in 1604
02:00:38
Actually was morally bankrupt He was a homosexual and There are many people that use that to try to impugn the
02:00:47
King James Version I said that's not fair on the other side of the spectrum You've got people like Gail Ripplinger who point to Virginia Mullencott and Give them a title they never had and a function that they never fulfilled
02:01:02
She was an English stylist for the NIV for a short period of time after the fact it was discovered or she
02:01:12
Divulged the information that she was a lesbian and so people said oh look at here We have lesbians working on the
02:01:18
NIV therefore the NIV is corrupt I'm saying both ends of the spectrum are adding heat not adding light
02:01:26
It's interesting to me that dr. Kenneth Barker who is the head of the NIV Translation Center?
02:01:32
Has admitted that if they had known? Mullencott's propensities if she had been open about at that time obviously they never would have referred to her
02:01:40
And there are some People out there that would think that would be a terrible horrible thing to do so you can't win one one way or the other
02:01:47
Unfortunately the point is you let's not use double standards James's particular sexual proclivities did not impact the teaching of the
02:01:57
King James Version that homosexuality is a sin and the NIV is just as strong and Condemning an amazing thing is people will focus in upon the fact that the
02:02:06
NIV does not use the term sodomy Well a lot of people don't exactly know what that's supposed to be referring to it uses the term
02:02:13
Homosexuality and yet the King James never uses the term homosexual does that mean something obviously not we need to we need to be clear in Our argumentation, okay, what do you think of the the new
02:02:23
King James Version the new King James is a fine translation? It's an excellent English translation It's based upon the exact same
02:02:32
Manuscripts as the King James was and so I have some problems that that's not as accurate as it could be but the new
02:02:38
King James provides wonderful excellent textual notes when there are variations And so it's an excellent translation at that point very formal a little bit too formal for my taste
02:02:47
But it's a it's a good translation. I frequently teach from it. Yeah, it's one of my favorite translations as well Pete Thank you for your call want to go to manual in Lakewood, California listening on KKLA Hello, hi, yeah, thanks for taking my call.
02:03:01
You're welcome. Oh, I had a quick question for James there I've heard on on ministries on the radio of The verse regarding our
02:03:13
Matthew 28 19 where it says Baptizing them in the name of the
02:03:19
Father and of the Son and the Holy Spirit and I've heard that uh that that that uh
02:03:25
That scripture portion there is not the original that that was added on And I wanted to know was your opinion if you had information about that right no
02:03:36
There's absolutely no historical evidence whatsoever that Matthew chapter 28 19 is not originally with Matthew It is known from the very earliest parts of the church the didache of course contains it
02:03:48
The main all the manuscripts have it anyone who attempts to say this was a later edition is obviously doing so for theological reasons
02:03:55
But they're trying to impose upon the scripture not from theological reasons. They've derived from the script So this is available in most of the manuscripts and all the manuscripts.
02:04:02
There's no question about it Okay, so where would you think they would get it from they think they would just make it up or because I've heard it more than one
02:04:10
Bible teacher that uh said that you know that there's a Translation a copy or a manuscript that has a different thing to that a portion of scripture there
02:04:21
Know the the Nestle all in 27th edition does not provide any any citation of that whatsoever
02:04:27
And any support from that unfortunately, I think I know what group of individuals from which these teachers would be coming
02:04:35
They have a problem with the theology of baptizing in the name of the Father and the Son the Holy Spirit I want this people it's it's oneness advocacies and that's
02:04:44
That again is a deriving theology from some source outside the Bible and forcing it then on to the
02:04:50
Bible That's there and we need to deal with it and it contradicts their theology Thank you for your call want to go to Jeff in California listening on KFA X Jeff.
02:04:58
Welcome Hi, Jeff. How are you? Good good I just wanted to say that I have read
02:05:05
James book and I appreciate it very much He's done a great job. His work is very scholarly and for myself
02:05:12
I am a new Christian. So for me, I've been a Christian since about last
02:05:18
June And it was very it for me it was really foundational simply because of the fact that I had done nothing in regards to religion for a good 20 years.
02:05:30
I had grown up Probably for about six years with Jehovah's Witness theology
02:05:36
Hmm, so with you know, you understand with the New World Translation There's a lot of information that I had and it was so foundational for me that When I became a
02:05:46
Christian, I just was hungry for everything So I started digging into a lot of things and one of the one of the people you mentioned in the book
02:05:55
Which is that da wait, you know, I've actually had conversation with him as have I which has been interesting to say the least
02:06:03
And I think he finds a way if you begin to question, you know which I was asking a lot of questions because I was trying to get as much information as possible to Get to the point now my question to you
02:06:15
Is do you find because you do outline a number of people in the book you find that a lot of them?
02:06:22
Cling to and I do understand their background in terms of being fundamentalist
02:06:27
You find that a lot of them You know Ruckman and some of the others that you quote in there Are they kind of along that same line of thought theology very much?
02:06:36
So the vast majority of King James only advocates are Dispensational fundamentalistic that doesn't mean that if you're a fundamentalist and a dispensationalist that you necessarily
02:06:46
King James only advocate But that is the primary place that it is found now Edward F. Hills was a
02:06:51
Presbyterian And there are some of those individuals who are now moving that direction
02:06:57
Theodore Elitist For example is a Lutheran scholar who is promoting a TR only perspective But the vast majority and certainly the most vocal King James only advocates are generally dispensational fundamentalist.
02:07:09
That's very true I didn't want to mention the DA wait has certainly been gracious in my Correspondence with him and my talking with him.
02:07:16
We did a debate on a radio station Last year and I think you would find that most the time when
02:07:23
I ask specific questions The answer I got back was well, it's a matter of faith You simply need to believe and that's so that's what you encounter in a lot of this
02:07:31
Yeah, I got that very much too Now when I got to the point where I was really examining the issue and I have to say because of your book
02:07:39
You made me go out and spend some money. So I've got about four other editions For the version now in my library.
02:07:45
Well, that's good, which is a great thing Yeah, you could have spent that money on a lot less worthy thing. Oh, trust me
02:07:50
My library is grown tremendously in the last year. I you know, it's all worthy investment.
02:07:56
In fact My investment is gonna take another step here probably within about a year.
02:08:01
I really strongly feel called seminary Wow Yeah, that's the direction
02:08:06
I'm going in fact a lot of the teaching through kfx I've been able to pick up on a lot of people and send away and I think
02:08:12
God has really Helped to guide me and listen to people who? you know are in that mode and and John MacArthur and some of the other people that take an approach of really
02:08:21
Examining and making all the information only one quick word of advice Make sure you know what you believe before you get there, right?
02:08:29
Well, you know what that's that's the one thing I appreciate your advice on that because My foundation has been created night
02:08:35
I've been doing a lot of it never takes away understand from my Bible reading
02:08:40
But it really enhances what I'm doing in terms of illuminating all the facts in and around it
02:08:47
Jeff thank you want to go to Forrest in Santa Monica, California. Was he a KKLA for us?
02:08:52
Welcome God love you Hank and James. I'm so glad that you take my call. I'm Wanting to know one thing.
02:08:59
I'm a King James advocate only because of my big study Bible is the King James I have the two other in fact
02:09:06
I also have the New English Bible and I like to read but the
02:09:11
King James all of my dictionaries and Comprehensive other things are geared to it.
02:09:17
So I study it but I find that there's one thing in it that perhaps You can help me understand the 16th chapter of Mark 8th verse on My King James, it's a hotel put out in the 1956 57 58
02:09:33
It plainly states that that does not add it to that but that was like it has to be a curse and I'm What I wanted to know
02:09:50
Do you have any knowledge or information as to how the King James Version was was put together
02:09:58
Well in regards to the specific passage you mentioned There's a couple of pages beginning on page 255 in my book that deals with Mark 16 9 through 20 and the endings of Mark And there's a whole lot of information on that particular subject
02:10:11
But when you say how is it put together the reason the King James contains the passage Is because the
02:10:17
Greek text from which it was translated contained the passage and in fact 99 .9 % of all
02:10:22
Greek manuscripts in the world contain some ending for Mark the vast majority The ending that you find in the
02:10:28
King James Version of the Bible and so the the translators were simply Translating the text that they had in front of them and that text contained the passage and so they did so now if you mean
02:10:39
Is it was it translated? dynamically or formally It is it is primarily a formal translation, but sometimes it surprises you
02:10:49
I give you an example in the book where I believe it's Amos 4 -4 The King James and the
02:10:56
NIV give the dynamic translation the NASB and the New King James give the literal formal
02:11:02
Translation and so you find the King James and the NIV joining up and the others provide more formal, so there are places
02:11:11
There's a real good example in Matthew in the crucifixion story What does the
02:11:16
King James say when the thieves are reviling Jesus it says they cast the same in his teeth?
02:11:23
There is no word cast. There is no word same There is no word his and there is no word teeth anywhere in the
02:11:29
Greek the word simply means they reviled him But the King James translators chose to express that in a more
02:11:35
Dynamic meaning way of saying they cast the same in his teeth and so the King James is not free of dynamic
02:11:42
Translation the amazing thing is people like dr. DA wait Just attack any type of use of dynamic translation at all as being diabolical and devilish and yet you find the
02:11:52
King James itself Around but the in the form of the King James Version, how was it started out as?
02:12:01
to become a translation well it the initial idea was placed before King James by John Reynolds in 1604 and the king was rather amenable to the idea because the fact that the king really detested the
02:12:16
Geneva Bible The Geneva Bible had notes that undercut his ideas of what a king should be and so he was amenable
02:12:23
To the idea of coming up with a new translation I think the irony of ironies is a few years later someone took the
02:12:29
King James and put the Geneva study notes with it I think is a wonderful wonderful thing of history, but anyways First of all
02:12:35
I think I was great but that's where the the impetus originally came from was from John Reynolds suggesting it at a
02:12:43
Famous meeting with the with the king in 1604 And most women in the
02:12:55
Hebrew the Aramaic and also in the Greek to be put into this podium that put into Bodies of ten going into different parts of the country and taking the
02:13:07
Byzantine and one of the one of the Western one of the others and Yes, I I know what you're referring.
02:13:16
Yeah, I know what you're referring to and I I didn't I didn't understand what you're asking Yes, there were the greatest scholars in England knew 48 or more
02:13:24
It's hard to know exactly who was involved in everything the medic Cambridge other places to work on the translation over that period of time
02:13:30
We don't know a lot about how they did it Specifically their committee meetings and stuff like that The few notes that were taken were taken in Latin in fact they were actually most of them were better with Latin than they were with the
02:13:41
Greek or Hebrew and In fact the King James has a number of places that come from the
02:13:46
Latin And not from the Greek text itself Erasmus did the same thing acts 837 is a good example of that that comes from the
02:13:52
Latin Rather than the Greek and the their translation was very heavily influenced by the
02:13:57
Latin as well But yes, they were great scholars. It remains today a monument to Bible scholarship
02:14:03
There's no two ways about it, but they themselves Would say if you haven't learned something more after 360 some odd years you guys are really slow.
02:14:11
There's a problem here You know they would be right behind us in providing translations forced appreciate your call again today
02:14:17
I want to go to Tony in San Jose, California Tony's listening on kfax welcome to the broadcast
02:14:34
No no that was dr. Samuel Gipp in a recent debate that I did was asked if I today lived in Russia And I wanted to have the perfect infallible
02:14:44
Word of God What I have to learn English and his response was yes, you would that is a perspective of the
02:14:50
Ruckman GIP Viewpoint it is dr. Da Waite would say that you need to use the
02:14:56
TR But as long as you provide a faithful translation in Russian of the TR, then you're providing the
02:15:01
Word of God But is it your position that you need to I mean so far you've been okay
02:15:09
Did you honey in comma okay most of the evidence for that the old
02:15:14
Syriac the old Latin Vulgate the italic Most all of those before the fifth century there's many many
02:15:22
Latin citations of that verse being there and It's conspicuously absent from the
02:15:29
Greek, but why is no attention paid to the Latin? Didn't didn't the
02:15:34
Word of God spread out and Into the different languages well, but again you're dealing there with a secondary source a secondary translation from the original and the problem with the going with the
02:15:46
Latin is that there are all sorts of Readings that have far more textual basis behind them than the comma johannium has that are rejected by the
02:15:57
King James I mean we would have to be inserting a tremendous number of variant readings that don't have that have a better Textual basis that the
02:16:06
King James said no way The comma johannium simply is not found in any
02:16:11
Greek manuscript And no one has ever been able to explain to me Why that would be now what you have in some of these early versions first of all you have some question about exactly how early?
02:16:20
They are secondly some people actually go so far as to say that early fathers Cited the the comma johannium when that is a little bit of a of a stretch
02:16:30
What you have in that statement is simply a it's really a conclusion statement It is a summary statement that there is one
02:16:37
God who exists in three persons basically the father son spread the one God This is a summary statement, and it is not a matter of early fathers citing this
02:16:45
They are simply alluding to a general truth There's a difference between alluding to a general truth and actually citing a specific passage where they say
02:16:52
John said such -and -so You don't find the specific citation Which is John said such -and -so one of the important points brought up by Tony is the point that if you are not
02:17:02
English? And you can't speak the English language. You just don't have a Bible From the perspective of dr.
02:17:10
Samuel Gipp yes, that's the case and he would say well English has become the universal language It's the language of commerce trade so on so forth
02:17:16
I don't think any of those arguments wash, but it's certainly to me I don't know what the Wycliffe Bible translators are doing out there from that perspective
02:17:23
They're certainly getting any support from those churches That's for sure And it's really outside of English -speaking people areas a lot of Christians and non -christians look at this whole thing and just roll their eyes
02:17:34
Like oh my goodness look at these Christians have gotten themselves into now. Yeah, I'm gonna go to Paul, San Antonio, Texas Listening to KSL are you're on with James way?
02:17:43
Hey Hank. How you doing doing good listen to you every day? I commute from San Antonio to Austin, and I pretty much catch your whole show you have my condolences
02:17:53
I don't want to thank you for letting me on the air you look on this particular issue Unfortunately, I would disagree with you
02:18:00
And I would just wanted to voice a few a few reasons right and I'll be brief God Give me the ability to to be brief okay, and I'll run through it.
02:18:08
Hopefully I won't sound argumentive or anything Quickly the preface what I want to say is how
02:18:14
I got into this It wasn't through tradition even though I do attend an independent fundamental Baptist Church I was overseas.
02:18:21
I was saved overseas military. I was in an assembly of God Church Got saved.
02:18:26
That's what type of Bible. I should get most of the young Christians are Recommended in NIV so I got an
02:18:32
NIV of course being a simile God I believed in tongues and things of that nature And I was reading one day at the end of Mark 6 through 20 that this whole chapter
02:18:41
Or that these particular verses Weren't in the oldest and best manuscripts So I sort of fell apart on that point and really had some problems with with the
02:18:50
Bible and the accuracy of the Bible And I sort of got out of it, though I don't remember exactly how and then later my pastor asked me and another brother to go to sort of Stand up for the
02:19:02
Christians when a Muslim was coming on base to present a seminar called Jesus the prophet of Islam And so we were standing up one -on -one debating with them
02:19:12
And so he asked us for one clear verse on the Trinity And so I gave him no I asked my friend who had a new
02:19:18
American standard to give him one John 5 7 He couldn't do it because he didn't really feel that that was a good verse
02:19:23
It might not be be there and all that of course the Muslim fellow knew what we were up to and he said well You guys want to be honest you'll admit that your
02:19:30
Bible has it yours doesn't and at the time I wasn't real versed in it So that that sparked me even more and then we went to one
02:19:36
Timothy 316 on the deity later And of course, it says he in the new
02:19:41
American standard It says God and the faith that I believe they believe the lines out make translated He and the new
02:19:48
Bibles and so from that point is how I got into it So it's I don't really believe that it's always going to be a case of tradition and then
02:19:55
I read both sides I read a deal Carlton Carlton Carson you read his book also read
02:20:01
Ruckman and healed and I'm an engineer by my profession So I don't well my degree at least is and so I you know
02:20:08
I'm not real quick to jump to conclusions, but I came out believing King James and eventually even came to believe that God moved a little differently with those men because of the time their qualifications and their
02:20:21
Sincerity and an evidence they had that this translation came out a little a little bit different than other ones
02:20:27
Okay, let's let James deal with the issues you've raised. Okay. Hey, yeah, that was just a preface
02:20:32
No, I just well quickly because I don't want to run out of time on you. Okay, great. Okay, go ahead
02:20:38
Go ahead. Well, the primary thing that I would say is first of all When you have troubles because you've utilized verses that are not necessarily the best verses to use
02:20:48
That in and of itself is not an argument against the originality of the readings that that are found in the modern translations
02:20:56
Ideal of 1st Timothy 316 rather extensively in the book and as you recognize It is not a matter of conspiracies
02:21:02
It's a matter of a Haas versus the the nominus sacra theos the abbreviation of the word God so on and so forth
02:21:09
The problem that I have in fact, I personally prefer the reading God at that point By the way, I make that clear in my in my book
02:21:15
The problem I have though is it seems like you've read a lot of information presenting the other perspective
02:21:21
But the only one that you mentioned was Carson's book I don't know if you've even seen mine yet or dealt with that yet but the simple fact the matter is there isn't a whole lot out that has responded to the
02:21:31
King James only position and I would hope that maybe you might suspend total and final judgment until you have an opportunity of really examining
02:21:42
Interaction for example, that's one of the reasons I like doing call -in radio. I would I've I've challenged These individuals to debate
02:21:49
I've invited mrs. Rippling er Peter Ruckman, and that's a whole other story about what happened there
02:21:55
D a weight and I have debated I have been attempting to get him to do more of that He won't even respond to me anymore when you hear by the way
02:22:03
Let's say right now before you go on that I'd be willing to give the Bible answer man Broadcast as a platform for you to debate some of these guys.
02:22:11
So let them know that I will most certainly do so Yeah Presently I'm going to go into the ministry eventually and I'm presently working
02:22:20
On a master's in biblical languages and what I'd like what I'm hoping to take this issue up when
02:22:26
I do graduate Down the years. It's probably gonna take another two more years Could I possibly debate you on this on this issue when
02:22:33
I want some qualified? well, my hope is my hope is by then you won't want to but But certainly we could discuss that at that point
02:22:41
But one thing I want to say if you're going into the ministry and you're going to use the King James The most important thing is just this
02:22:48
Preach it teach it believe it live it. That's the most important thing It's not a matter of all these other translations and so on so forth the
02:22:57
Word of God has found the King James justice found the new King James in the NIV and as long as people don't go
02:23:02
Off the deep end and start making the translation the issue. That's the important thing from my perspective Let's see if we can slide in one more quick call
02:23:09
Jeremy in Kansas City, Missouri listening on KCCV. You're on with James White Thank you for taking my call a delight
02:23:16
I'm just I'm confused the matter Most of the time my church is Relatively informed about things and I'm just trying to figure it all out.
02:23:26
But from what I understood Origin was one of the the translators
02:23:32
Of the the Alexandrian text. No, it's not true. No, that's not true No, it's not that's a common claim of the of the
02:23:39
King James only advocates It has absolutely positively not a bit of patristic or linguistic support behind it origin
02:23:45
Utilized the Alexandrian text, but there are people who utilized it before him And in fact as I pointed out in my book
02:23:51
We have papyri manuscripts that give us the Alexandrian text that were written before origin was born
02:23:57
So therefore that is that that's a common false claim of King James only advocates and we'll take one more call
02:24:03
Tim in Memphis Tennessee listening on WCRV Tim welcome. Yeah. Thank you. It's got to be really quick I've only got about 30 seconds.
02:24:10
Okay, your thoughts about maybe dr. Stuart Custer up in Greenville, South Carolina He really seems to be the bread of a lot of criticism by dr.
02:24:17
Ruckman and a lot of the King James only people well And that's because he's had the temerity to stand up against them and say they're wrong
02:24:23
And the other thing is of course being a Bob Jones University Dr. Ruckman really really really really
02:24:29
Since he graduated from there seems to like to shoot the people that are closest to him as far as his background goes But Peter Ruckman likes to shoot at everybody so it's
02:24:38
He's just one of the folks that has taken a few hits to if you thought James White was fascinating on radio
02:24:43
You're gonna want to get the King James only controversy book. This was a book that I wanted to write
02:24:49
I was a month into the process myself until I found out that James was writing this book.
02:24:55
I aborted the process I got his book I wrote an endorsement for his book and I want you to take this book and make it a part of your library you can do this by writing me at the
02:25:04
Christian Research Institute and ordering a radio offer number three three seven a
02:25:10
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02:25:16
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02:25:41
He is a Apologist that's making a difference not only for time, but also for eternity pray for him in his ministry
02:25:48
He's taking a lot of heat for writing this book. It's a book that needed to be written It is a book that will inspire you and give you confidence in the
02:25:56
Word of God James at the light It has been the best. Thank you. Yeah, we will have him back in the near future