January 2 Show with Todd Friel on “The Upcoming G3 Conference” PLUS Dr. Tony Costa on “The Need of Apologetics: To Debate or Not To Debate?”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio

platform on which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues

facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron so one

man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we

converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another

wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear

from you, the listeners, with your own questions.

Now here's our host, Chris.

Arntzen.

Good afternoon Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

Earth who are listening via live streaming.

This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Monday on

this very first Iron Sharpens Iron broadcast in 2017, Monday

January 2nd, and I am delighted to have back on the program Todd Friel,

host of Wretched TV and Wretched Radio.

He's going to be talking about the upcoming G3 conference that we will both be attending,

God willing, in just a matter of a couple of weeks, and later on

the second part of our program we have the privilege of Dr. Tony Costa being our guest again,

and Dr. Tony Costa, as many of you remember from previous broadcasts, is the professor of

apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary.

He is my keynote speaker at the upcoming Iron Sharpens Iron pastors luncheon at the

Carlisle Vault Catering Hall, and he is also going to be debating the following night

on Friday the 13th of all dates in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, he's debating

Roman Catholic apologist Robert Syngenis on the theme, Mary, Sinless Queen of

Heaven or Sinner Saved by Grace.

So we hope that as many of you as possible can come to those events, but first let me welcome

back to Iron Sharpens Iron Todd Friel of Wretched TV and Wretched Radio.

Three things, as I am the,

what you know Chris, it's all uphill from here.

I'm sure a guy who did that Iron Sharpens, that sounded like

you, is it you?

No, I think that you being in.

Broadcasting should know that you don't have the host.

Do the introduction as.

Well.

That's why I'm asking, but it sounded

a little bit like you.

Well, I'm not superstitious, but obviously some people are, that's why there's a debate on the sinlessness of Mary.

Yeah, I think Mary answered the question.

She made it clear she needed a savior.

Amen.

She's not that she's suggest in any way shape

or form.

You do that somehow, you've got to keep picking

the can

back.

Yes, it is.

Not, and it is amazing that people have been converted from

biblically sound Protestantism into these mindsets and beliefs.

I'm absolutely astonished.

In fact, Robert Syngenis, the Catholic debater who actually is a friend of mine, I've known him since

1996, I think, even though we are

vehemently opposed to one another's positions on these matters.

He was a Presbyterian in a conservative Bible -believing Presbyterian denomination,

and he actually became a Roman Catholic, which just absolutely astonishes me.

But it goes to show you that no matter how much knowledge a person has in their mind, it takes the grace

of God and a miracle in the heart by God himself for someone to.

Believe the truth of the Scriptures.

Yeah, I don't imagine, I just I find it hard to fathom.

You know, Presbyterians, Protestants would say you're saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Jesus Christ

alone.

Roman Catholicism says let me give you a laundry list of things to do, and you better make sure you don't sin along the

way, and if you do, this is what you need to do, and even so you're going to end up in purgatory working things off.

Why would you want to swim the Tiber to a work -righteous system?

I don't understand.

I don't either, but what.

I have sensed is that, believe it or not, there is, I think, a comfort

that people have in thinking that the priest and the sacraments take care of everything.

I don't really need to be all that self -conscious, because this is not the

Roman Catholic Church of the 16th century and prior, where people were being executed and tortured,

and where hell was being hammered on people, even up through the mid 20th century.

These modern times, the Catholic Church is so modernistic and liberal.

I think people like the idea of the priest, well, I don't need to know the Bible, the priest does all the learning.

I don't really need to do anything but receive the sacraments, and I'm okay.

And of course, that's not what the official dogma of Rome teaches, but that is way, I think, a

lot of.

Catholics think today.

Yeah, I think that's an aspect, obviously, tradition.

I also sure

that

their children understand your Protestant

heritage,

and they

reinvented about in the early church fathers

back in the read these men, and they had some wonky stuff

with their, well, your

heritage.

By the way, as

long as I brought up the subject,

at the G3 conference coming up in three weeks,

speak on the subject.

Let Jesus

know

that he

wasn't

persuaded

through

logic or

reason, or that he somehow made himself a Christian.

My father revealed that to

build my church.

Now, is

that

really

gonna be

your

theme?

A

few

verses

later, but

to

be deemed this.

Well, it is

quite providential that you are actually preaching on that.

Theme, or speaking on that theme at the G3 conference.

I had no idea that that was your topic, and quite a providential thing since I'm having this debate next week on

the sinlessness of Mary out here.

And if anybody could derive from the Scriptures that

one of the biblical characters, prominent figures in the Scriptures would be a Pope, it

would certainly be Paul over Peter, if you.

Were to derive something like that.

Yeah, well, we see that even in the Book of.

Yes, and Paul was the only one of the two that went to Rome as well, that we.

Know of anyway.

Yeah, you know, speaking of Paul and Peter, think of Galatians.

I confronted...

Did

you

really have an

opportunity to

confront the

Pope

to his

face?

I haven't had the opportunity.

I'm not Hillsong.

I guess I misunderstood you, because I was.

Wondering if the Swiss Guard beat the living daylights out of you at some.

Point.

Well, you

know, one thing that I think can be said that is

good, that has.

Brought both Catholics and Protestants into more harmony after the election of

Donald Trump, now all Americans have a leader that believes he's infallible.

Well, for our listeners who are unfamiliar with wretched TV and radio, which is probably very

doubtful that they'd be unfamiliar with it, but if you could tell our listeners about these programs.

The

right

desire

for

you

is not to try

paying money, but because

of

a kind of

saving.

Amen.

I remember years ago hearing an analogy that if

someone's son lost his life on the battlefield rescuing

his comrades -in -arms and the the parents of

that young man who died on the battlefield to save his friends were to hear

someone saying, and I helped save those people, and the

parents knew that their son alone had done this, this heroic deed that rescued the

lives of others, everyone would agree that that would be a reason for those parents to be infuriated,

to even be disgusted and sickened by the claim that someone helped this

hero who died.

Now, if you multiply that by billions of times over, when you think

about Christ and his finished work on the cross and his receiving the

wrath of the Father to pay for the sins of his people, for anyone

to claim that they added anything, that they helped to save themselves, and that

others, saints and Mary and all kinds of things, helped because that

work that Christ accomplished was not sufficient, that is just the the utmost of

a mockery of Jesus and his perfect work on Calvary, wouldn't you agree?

The universe

is

about,

so receives

glory, so that

he can

be all in

all.

There's the.

Teleological question.

I'm going to quick give our email address out for those of you wanting to

ask Todd Frila a question.

It's chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Please include your city and state of residence in your country of residence if you live

outside of the USA.

We have Seth in Randleman, North Carolina, who said,

please ask Todd Frila if Benny Hinn will be doing any miracles when he speaks at the G3 conference.

Just kidding, he says.

Now, the serious question he asks is, what are your thoughts on Christian

linking arms with Catholics for social justice issues like abortion,

etc.?

That's commonly, as you know, called, well, I just slipped that out of my mind, the Abraham

Kuyper term.

Oh, co -belligerence.

Do you believe in that?

Like, for instance, you believe that evangelical Bible -believing Christians should be like, for instance, picketing abortion clinics with

Catholics and doing all kinds of other things like.

That.

2 John 9, anybody who's watching you, that you

are in

agreement.

Talk about God and grace, which

somebody in that audience, if you as an evangelical were standing there, think, well, I guess, you know,

maybe they all believe the same, you know, sort of the same and all roads lead home, that

he is the way, the truth, and the light.

And if you conclude, yes, that doing

events like...

Well, thank

you very much for the great...

Wait a second, was it Seth from South Carolina?

Yes, Randleman, South Carolina, yes.

Yeah, well, I got a question for you, Seth.

Why is gas in South Carolina cheaper than every place else in the country?

In fact, actually, I.

Think it's Randleman, North Carolina, that Seth lives in.

Oh, never mind.

But we do have a South Carolinian.

We have Edwin.

Edwin is from Lexington, South Carolina, and he says, I recently was speaking

to a friend who tried to refute me, saying that Jesus named Peter the

Shepherd, and that was a simple point that proved him being the first Pope

in John 21, 15 through 17.

Is this a common belief, and if so, how.

Should we answer it?

Well, I think we need to remember the difference between exegesis

and eisegesis.

You did

not know.

To bring that

into

the text

recognizes it's

why

that detail, that Jesus had made a wood -burning fire

to serve them a meal.

How's about because it was warming his hands with when he

denied Jesus three times.

Now, Jesus asked him three questions.

Do you love me?

Feed my sheep.

Do you love me?

Feed my lambs.

Do you love me?

Tend my sheep.

It's two feeds and one tend.

What was he doing?

He was reinstating, if you will, not making Peter,

you're forgiven.

Now, carry on and go do what you're supposed to be doing, and it's none of your business

about what I'm going to do with John.

So he was not making him the Pope.

He was saying to Peter, who undoubtedly, and we know this because he wept bitterly, reinstating him

into ministry.

Well, thank you, Edwin.

By.

The way, Edwin, in Lexington, South Carolina, since you're a first -time questioner, you're winning a free

genuine leather New American Standard Bible that will be shipped out to you probably within a

week or so.

Please give us your full mailing address in Lexington, South Carolina, so we can have that shipped out to

you by Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com, who sponsor the Iron Sharpens Iron

program.

Thank you very much for your question.

We have Tyler in Mastic Beach, Long Island, New York, who says, why is it that many

evangelicals tend to lean toward an Arminian understanding of the gospel rather than

monergism, which is clearly taught in Scripture?

Yeah, I think the.

Big, there's, I think

there's, that

is really the one who kicks it, and using,

well, manipulative tactics to get people to make a decision to become.

From there, that message, just, it caught it.

You have got to do something.

You've got to make a decision.

You've got to ask.

You've got to make Jesus your Lord and Savior.

I think we've also gotten a little bit sloppy with our language.

It relates to the last question about John 21.

Consider when Jesus, in Revelation 3,

knocking on the door,

knocking

on

your

heart.

We

make a

repentance,

but

here's what else is clear.

If God doesn't act on us, we won't respond.

If God doesn't do it, and I think

the reason that

it's kind of is

mean.

Why doesn't God, you mean, there are some people that he's just

not gonna say, and

I get, I am, did you ever read about the chosen?

Why, why, wait, whoa, whoa, whoa, why didn't he pick the Moabites?

Because God can choose whom he chooses, and if

you're mean, why, why, why does he just

elect some and not all or everybody?

You're only kicking the can down the street.

God could save everybody.

We make

a genuine decision, and ultimately, I think we're trying to find ourselves

going, I can't figure that out in my perfectly, and that might lead somebody to

go, there, if you can

figure out everything about God, that is very

bad.

His ways are higher.

You maybe wrangle over the concept of the

can't get it.

That doesn't mean it's not true.

Human brains can't figure out.

Amen.

Well, I want to thank you so much for being a.

Guest, Todd.

Hopefully next time you can be on longer, because we're already out of time, and perhaps we could even discuss that

excellent article you wrote over a year ago, perhaps even longer ago,

on 10 reasons why you should not invite Jesus into your heart.

I don't know if you recall that article that you wrote, but I shared that with quite a bit of people.

It was an excellent article, but I know that Wretched TV and Wretched Radio can

be found on WretchedRadio .com, WretchedRadio .com.

Anything else you'd like to add before we go turn over to.

Tony Costa for the next part of the program?

If you're not going to G3, check out G3 Conference.

Take a look at the people who are there, and join Chris, join me, join Paul Washer, Bill Johnson, Steve Lawson.

We are going to have a...

Amen.

G3Conference .com, G3Conference .com.

They've already got well over 2 ,000 people registered, and I think they have room for something like 400 more,

so we look forward to seeing as many of you as possible there.

Well, thanks a lot, Todd.

It's always a great joy for me to have you on the program.

That's what I was gonna say.

I always enjoy it, Chris.

I appreciate that very much, and thanks for those ads that you recorded for the G3 Conference.

We're gonna be hearing one in a second, so.

Oh, God.

All right, God bless you, brother.

And now we're going to a station break, and if you'd like to join us on the air

with a question for Dr. Tony Costa of Toronto Baptist Seminary, professor of

apologetics and Islam, you can email us at chrisarnson at gmail .com,

chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back with Dr. Tony Costa and our theme, the need of apologetics

to debate or not to debate.

I'm Chris Arnson, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and here's one of my favorite guests, Todd Friel, to

tell you about a.

Conference he and I are going to.

Hello, this is Todd Friel, host of Wretched Radio and Wretched TV, and

occasional guest on Chris's show, Iron Criticizing

Iron.

I think that's what it's called.

Hoping that you can join Chris and me at the G3 Conference in Atlanta, my new

hometown.

It is going to be a bang -up conference called the G3 Conference,

celebrating the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation with Paul Washer,

Steve Lawson, D .A. Carson, Votie Baucom, Conrad and Bayway, Phil Johnson, James White, and a bunch of other people.

We hope to see you there.

Learn more at g3conference .com, g3conference .com.

Thanks, Todd, I think.

See you at the Iron Sharpens Iron exhibitors booth.

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Every Saturday from 12 noon to 1 p .m. Eastern Time on WLIE Radio, and keep

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also keep in mind that when you're listening, if you tune in early

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You could also hear that program anywhere in the New York Tri -State area on 540am on the

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And when you call in to A Visit to the Pastors Study with Pastor Bill Shishko, please tell him

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Iron, just taking your emails.

But thank you, Bill Shishko, for all you have done to encourage me in the work here on Iron

Sharpens Iron.

Now we have joining us for the remainder of the program Dr. Tony Costa, who is professor of

apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary.

He's a published author, he is a conference speaker, he is a debater, he's a mutual friend of Dr.

James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries and myself.

In fact, that's where I first heard of Dr. Tony Costa, was on, I believe, on the

Dividing Line program that James White hosts.

And I am so excited that he, Dr. Tony Costa, is coming out here next week to be involved in two

major events, which we will be discussing in a bit.

But it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron.

Sharpens Iron, Dr. Tony Costa.

Well, Chris, as always, it's always a pleasure and.

Happy New Year to you.

Happy New Year to you.

And Dr. Costa, as I mentioned earlier at the very beginning of the program when I had Todd

Friel on, Dr. Costa is involved in two events here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

The first is next Thursday on January 12th from 11 a .m. to 2 p .m.

It is a pastor's luncheon and all men in ministry leadership are invited to this

free event, whether you are a pastor, a president, or leader of

a power church organization, someone who is just actively involved in some leadership

role in your church.

And this is restricted just for men.

We cannot accommodate the wives either, so we apologize for that inconvenience.

But this is a men's luncheon.

It will be the next Thursday, absolutely free of charge, but please RSVP

by a week from today, next Monday, if you could RSVP if you're planning on attending.

That would be very helpful to us.

You're gonna get a free gourmet lunch.

Every pastor there or every man there is going to leave with a very heavy sack filled with

free books that have been donated by major Christian publishers all over the United States and United

Kingdom.

This is a really extraordinary event and Dr. Tony Costa is the keynote speaker and I'm looking

forward to hearing that.

Then the following night at the Carlisle Theater in Carlisle, Pennsylvania,

Dr. Tony Costa is going to be debating Robert St. Genes, a Roman Catholic apologist

and founder of Catholic Apologetics International.

Their theme is going to be Mary, Sinless Queen of Heaven or Sinner Saved by Grace.

That's Friday the 13th of January, 7 p .m. at the Carlisle Theater

in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

For more information on both of these events you can email me at

chrisarnsen at gmail .com and please put luncheon or debate or both

in the subject line.

And by the way I want to let everybody know who is traveling from out of state, we already know that there

are people coming from New York, New Jersey, Washington DC,

Maryland, Virginia.

Well the Comfort Suites which is right around the corner from the both the debate

venue and the luncheon venue within like a 30 -second walk of both places.

Comfort Suites has got a special rate for you if you mention Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

You will get $69 a night as your fee for lodging there and that's

about half, that's even I think less than half of what they normally charge.

So that's a very good rate and I will be posting the website for

Comfort Suites on the program's website as soon

as possible but I hope that many of you may be more likely to

to travel from out of town knowing that you've got that great that great

rate.

But we will keep you posted on the exact details on

on registering.

Well actually I have right now right in front of me the website is comfortsuitescarlisle .com.

Comfortsuitescarlisle .com is where you could go to register and we

hope that that you take advantage of that.

Dr. Costa it's so great to know that you are coming out here.

It's so great to know that our mutual friend David Wood of answeringmuslims .com is

going to be the videographer at the event and my

friend Anthony Eugenio is going to be the moderator but it is such a pleasure to know

that a man of your caliber is coming out to Carlisle Pennsylvania.

Can you tell us what it is that you plan on speaking on at the

pastor's luncheon.

First of all?

Yes at the pastor's luncheon I'm going to be

truly the influence

speaking on another aspect of postmodernism which is known as

cultural Marxism.

Compromise the concept of true compromise

and family stuff in

the idea that

and the idea that.

So we'll be addressing some of those those key issues but particularly the

the deterioration.

Well that sounds like a.

Very appropriate topic for this day and age we live in

and one of the things that I wanted you to address today is the

need for apologetics today and the subtitle to debate

or not to debate that is the question because we there are people

coming from different streams of theological thought even from opposite ends of the spectrum

180 degrees opposite from another who radically oppose or

oppose in some level of opposition

having debates public moderated debates with people that have

opposing views especially if one of the participants is someone that does not

believe in the gospel of Jesus Christ as we believe the Bible clearly

explains it and teaches it.

You have on the left obviously those who

think that there are nothing there can be nothing productive that comes from

these kinds of things which will only inevitably hurt people's feelings

that this is an exercise in meanness and some would even

call it hateful bigotry even though there's there's people on

both sides of the issue being represented in the debate.

So I can't understand that logic at all.

But then you have even on the other end of the spectrum I know some

folks personally that would agree with you and I theologically on many if not the vast majority of

things who would be coming from a very conservative point of view who

are opposed to debates because they say to me for instance you are giving

a platform to a heretic you're giving a platform for the false teacher to expose

people to damning and deadly doctrines.

So therefore I do not believe what you're doing is appropriate.

So how do you respond to those two extreme sides of the spectrum who both disagree

with debates.

Not that apologetics is all wrapped up in that one area.

We can get into the broader stream or the broader field of apologetics after this specific question.

But if you could comment on.

Both sides of

the spectrum on that

the idea

of an answer for all is

commanded.

I remember the controversy

for the diversity and the

fear is that as you rightly to

the enemy to dissent all theology.

But I think it's important to understand that the idea

of he

first

and then

athletes

and he reasoned

with people but that word reasoning there is the word of East Moss

and the idea there is that he reached society in ancient

Greek society the Greeks were very well

known for

their

if you

read the

book of

action others

I'm not going to and met

their challenge.

He went to the Arapagus and there the

the to

create and to judge and to provide and so forth and then he ends up by presenting the gospel

and the resurrection.

Now what is interesting is that in verses 32 to 34 of Acts 17 were

told her that after the people had heard Paul speak about the resurrection of the dead it does say that some

mocked and others said we will hear you again on this matter.

But then it also says that some men came to believe in the gospel and were saved and began to follow the

Apostle Paul.

So the idea of debating is not only entrenched within the New Testament we see it in

Acts 17 but if you look at the early history of the church some of

the great Justin Martyr for instance and one of Justin's

famous pieces is known as dialogue with trifle the Jew where Justin Martyr

engages in a debate with an unbelieving Jew about and again he argues

persuasively that Jesus is Messiah and that that Jews should come to repentance and believe in him and

and he we also know that Justin Martyr produced a number of what we are what we call apologies his first apology

where he defends the Christian faith to the Roman Emperor.

So it's very important to understand that the idea of debating we

believe that Jesus Christ is the truth.

We believe that truth what public debate do and I've been engaged in a number of them with

various opponents different faiths and philosophies and worldviews.

The thing that debates do Chris is they show the world that Christians are not afraid to

take on its opponents that we believe that truth will ultimately prevail and that God sovereignly

has used debates as he did with Paul and others to bring people to faith and and I could share with you

about folks who were Muslims and how they came to Christ after being at one of my debates

where I debated the Muslim imam and they heard the gospel and and they came to

faith in Christ.

So there is a place for debate.

And if you you when you

deal with controversial issues maybe debating is not for you but God has certainly called people

within the church who are gifted in that area and I could think of my good friend dr. James White in particular I don't

think I'll ever do enough to the number of debates that he has done.

He's like John Wesley preaches more than anyone else I know but say

this Chris debates do have results.

God sovereignly walks through them and and what we do is once again we were not afraid to take

on the opponents.

And this is the problem with the church is the church has become so insular we have we have receded back

from from critical analysis we recede back into our little corners.

When Jesus tells us that we ought to be the salt of the earth light of the world.

He tells us not to put our light on their bushel when so that it may be seen by all men.

So it's really important that that believers come to realize that debating

is when it comes to sharing the gospel.

And God can't.

Sovereignly use it to bring people to faith.

Yes well the there is a naivete I think that

some conservative people who agree with us theologically who

simultaneously oppose debates there's a naivete to think that and it's even I think

a wrong approach to think that Christians can or should be

sheltered from the false teachings that others are

teaching and preaching and writing about we.

We should be in some way equipped to have an

intellectual or intelligent discourse with these people because we meet them every

day.

I mean unless you live in some kind of a conservative Protestant

monastery you are going to be you.

You're gonna be meeting and talking with people.

At least you should be.

You should be either at work on a lunch break or

around your holiday dinner table or wherever when you're

sitting at a ballgame or any other sphere of life where you are where you are

having interaction with those outside of your faith system.

You are going to be left with opportunities to to

engage these people and very important conversations about the truth and to protect people.

If that is even the right word to to shelter people might be the better word shelter

people from these false teachings and teachers completely.

You may be leaving people totally unprepared to respond to what they have to say because they may

be hearing it for the first time.

They may be hearing certain arguments for the first time.

And they may be total totally tongue -tied am.

I right.

Yes you're absolutely correct.

And think of it this way.

You send them out.

Well of course not unless we want them coming back in body bags.

But when we send out our our men and women who are in the army or the Navy here we

train them they are trained in military war.

We send them out to to know how to protect themselves from the enemy.

And the same thing applies to the believer.

The Apostle Paul talks about in Ephesians 6 how we ought to put on the whole armor of God and we must be

prepared against the flaming arrows of the evil one.

And so if we don't protect our children by telling them what to expect.

And I see this on a regular basis mothers and fathers

come to me and tell me that their children have gone off into the New Age movement they they convert to Islam they

they've gone into Eastern mysticism.

And many times the reason why this happens is because many of our young people don't

know why they believe what they believe.

And if you don't know why you believe what you believe then how are you going to be able to defend it

when you are confronted with another challenging world do.

And I think that Christians must become aware that hymns like onward Christian

soldiers and stand up stand up for Jesus mean exactly that that we are.

Even though we walk

in the flesh we do not war we do not engage in warfare after the flesh are the weapons

of our.

Warfare.

Dr. Costa are you there.

I think we lost connection with dr. Costa.

I'm sorry.

Oh yeah you you kind of cut out there and I thought that mean big we.

Lost

you.

And

three to

five.

You cannot avoid

warfare.

You don't

go to concern right now.

Chris.

Living in

Ontario.

To

university.

Not.

Do not

come back.

We're.

Gonna be going to a break right now if you'd like to join us on the air with a question for dr. Tony Costa

about apologetics you can also specifically ask him about anything

involving Roman Catholicism since he is going to be debating a Roman Catholic next week here

on Long Island.

Up in Long Island Carlisle Pennsylvania.

If people are wondering why I said Long Island it's because I spent most of my life until four years ago.

In fact I spent all of my life on Long Island New York and arranged probably

close to 25 debates featuring dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries

on Long Island and 10 of those were with Roman Catholics.

But anyway that's that's where that slip of the tongue came from.

But because of the fact that dr. Costa is debating a Roman Catholic apologist here in

Carlisle Pennsylvania next week you may ask a question on the on Catholicism even on Islam.

Since one of his specialties one of the areas of his focus in

apologetics is Islam you can ask about that as well.

Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail

.com.

And when you write please give us your first name your city and state

and your country of residence.

If you live outside of the good old USA don't go away.

We will be right back after these messages with dr. Tony Costa.

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Paul wrote to the church at.

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Hi I'm pastor Bill Shishko inviting you to tune into a visit to the pastor's study every Saturday

from 12 noon to 1 p .m. Eastern Time on WLIE radio

www .wlie540am .com.

We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you and we invite you to visit the pastor's study by calling in

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Our time will be lively useful and I assure you never dull.

Join us this Saturday at 12 noon Eastern Time for a visit to the pastor's study because everyone needs

a.

Pastor welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen if you just tuned in today.

Our guest today for the full two hours with a little less than an hour to go is Dr. Tony Costa

who is professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary in Canada.

He is also our keynote speaker next week Thursday January 12th 11 a .m.

to 2 p .m. at the Carlisle vault catering hall he is going to be speaking on

postmodernism and other things to the pastors present.

That's absolutely free of charge for any man in ministry who would like to attend.

If you are SVP by next Monday then the following night he will be debating

Roman Catholic apologist Robertson Janice on the theme Mary sinless Queen of Heaven

or sinners saved by grace.

That's at the Carlisle theater in Carlisle Pennsylvania.

For more information on both events please email me at Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

You can also email me at Chris Arnzen at comcast .net.

Chris Arnzen at comcast .net.

And please put either luncheon or debate or both in the subject line.

Dr. Costa the the thing about those who

are more prone to sentimentalism earlier I

identified this as maybe the left -wing disapproval or

rejection or opposition to debates and that kind of thing that may have been an overstatement because you have

many within so -called Bible believing evangelicalism who

are not liberal in their theology but they are overly

sentimental and overly concerned about the feelings of others

over and above their concern for their never -dying souls.

And they view things like this as something oh that I don't want to be involved in that that what

good can come out of that.

That's just gonna hurt people's feelings.

It's gonna cause greater division.

You know why are you even doing things like this this is just so hurtful and that kind of a thing.

And I've had people say a lot of people over the years who are from evangelical churches tell me this.

And I have said to many of them that if you really want to

develop a close friendship with someone let's say who is a Roman Catholic or

even a Muslim or somebody of another religion are you going to keep secret

those things that you differ with them on.

Are those things never going to be brought up in a conversation with them.

And if they're not how much could you possibly care or love them by letting them go

about guilt go on with their lives without knowing the truth of what the Bible teaches on a

particular issue.

Or is it that you don't think that these issues are that important anyway maybe the these things that you

say you believe they're not really that important to you.

Perhaps the gospel of salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ

alone.

Perhaps that's just to you an interesting biblical concept.

But it's not all that important in the grand scheme of things.

But if you could comment on the reaction to those folks who are not only liberal

but even your average wishy -washy sentimental right greeting card

evangelical or as some people I forget who coined the phrase even jellyfish.

But if you know.

What I'm talking about.

Yes I know exactly what.

That's why we need to talk.

And you're at that is more concerned about

what men

think

that

it evil.

And when he confronted error he used some of the strongest language in the New Testament.

He would refer to false teachers as blind guides.

He would.

He talked about the blind leading the blind

he would use

very was warned

you of the damnation to come.

And this was not just the Lord Jesus Christ.

We see Paul in Acts 13

when he confronts

as a child of

people being

offended and how they

need faith.

The problem with that of course is that truth has

nothing to do with feelings truly healing in

the triune.

God.

Remember when Jesus

met the

Samaritan woman.

It's a beautiful story.

And and

if you remember how

this to him.

Well I perceive.

And Jesus turns to

her and says you know not what you worship.

Truth and love as Paul said.

And at the end of the day what people need is they need the truth.

They need to know that they are laid

down their arms.

And the

Lord Jesus had

no is of the essence.

Until we realize this

really cultural

soon.

Lucky

feelings that we

have David in Ada

Ohio.

And David says in the Bible.

The word debate is used in both a do not debate

and a do debate way.

One is sinful the other is not.

Please explain the difference.

There are two different Greek words used in each.

He didn't cite the text that he's referring to but.

Perhaps you know.

Right right I think that just like any any other word

and you'll remember at the the beginning of the

show and I've

got a lot of just keep

on

come in

that he does that in the marketplace

where

he.

So I obviously I

engage in this because I believe that the truth can be can be exhaled

can be can be communicated in an effective manner and

that policy

is is NPS and covetous.

But jealousy is jealousy is the jealousy of a husband for his wife is a good and

holy thing.

The same jealousy God has over his people where he is a jealous

God his people.

So it depends on the context and I'm assuming that

you.

Would agree that even though every Christian should

be ready to give an answer for the hope that lies within them and they should be ready to

defend biblical truth and expose error and heresy and

aberrant teaching and dangerous teaching and practice within the confines of their

homes within casual settings with friends and family and loved ones and neighbors that

this this role of getting up in front of a crowd of people at a

at a scheduled public moderated event is not

it is very foolhardy and unwise for someone who just has some kind of

cockiness or confidence that they know enough about the truth to do this kind of a thing.

You have to be really prepared to defend the truth of God

through training and study.

Long before you would step into an arena like this wouldn't you agree.

Because you may be bringing reproach upon the church by very

sloppily and inadequately

seeking to defend the truth and expose.

Error.

No I say

teen we he

communicated

to earlier

the

time

for

everything

and and there is a place and I don't

worry

it's not

about how eloquent you are it's it's it's something that

you do to honor the Lord Jesus Christ.

It's something that you do out of love for fallen people and I know that in many of my

debates come in say you know I don't agree with

you and you

do care you know.

I think David and Ada Ohio may have been referring to specifically at least in the King James Version.

Romans 129 and 2nd Corinthians 1220 refer to debates and

debating as something negative in Romans 129 being filled with

all unrighteousness fornication wickedness covetousness malicious full of envy murder debate

deceit etc.

And then we have 2nd Corinthians 1220.

For I fear lest when I come I shall not find you such as I would and that I shall

be found unto you such as you would not.

Lest there be debates.

Envying's wrath strife's backbiting whispering swellings.

The I remember specifically there there was a King James only

preacher down south somewhere who began attacking me

for having debates that featured our mutual friend dr. James R white who

wrote the the book that is world famous now

the King James only controversy.

Even da Carson who wrote a book on the same subject thought that dr. white did a better

job or more thorough job and refers people to that book that he that dr. white wrote

the the I when I challenged this man this pastor this King James only

pastor to a to be involved in a debate with dr.

white or to get someone he felt would be

more gifted and suited to publicly defend the position of King James only ism

he said oh no no that would be wicked because of the verses that he that I just quoted to you from the King James

version first of all that has nothing to do with what we are talking about this is nothing to do

with scholarly public moderated exchange

between people of opposing.

Views.

Am i right this is this is not the word

right.

And probably engaging with a

pastor

there's a time

and place for

that.

And and there's nothing.

Yes there was.

Something there was something cowardly about being someone who stands on

a soap box and publicly maligns the opinions

of others even a brother in Christ and rips them to shreds.

And especially when they fill their rhetoric with slander and even on the level of

idiocy at times that these people will not have the courage and the

confidence of their convictions and ability to defend them to get into a debate.

If you're going to be publicly vociferously slandering somebody or and obviously they wouldn't view that

as slander they would be viewing it as exposing wickedness.

But if you're going to do that have the courage to face those people and debate them.

Isn't that a very appropriate Christian.

Response to somebody like that.

Absolutely.

I mean if you think of the Reformers

right and

Zwingli

it's not.

It is

not

unusual for Chris

can be done since slandering

which is all right and

by the way we

did when Luther had the.

Debate the famous Reformation debate on the bondage of the will with of Erasmus.

Was that actually a public event or is that just in writing that it was in.

Writing.

They went back and forth.

So Luther wrote the book.

Well we're right.

Now going to our final break and is amazing to me how fast time has flown by.

We're going to our final break right now.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own for dr. Tony Costa our email address is Chris Arnzen

at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

And please give us your first name your city and state and your country of residence.

If you live outside of the good old USA don't go away we'll be right back.

After these messages.

Chris Arnzen here and I can't wait to head down to Atlanta Georgia and here's.

My friend dr. James White to tell you why.

Hi.

I'm James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries.

I hope you join me at the G3 conference hosted by Pastor Josh Bice and Praise Mill Baptist Church at

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Phil Johnson Rosaria Butterfield Todd Freel and a host of other speakers who are dedicated to the

pillars of what g3 stands for gospel grace and glory.

For more details go to g3 conference .com.

That's g3 conference .com.

Thanks James.

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Hi.

I'm Pastor Bill Shishko inviting you to tune into a visit to the pastor's study every Saturday from

12 noon to 1 p .m. Eastern Time on WLIE radio www

.wlie540am .com we bring biblically faithful

pastoral ministry to you and we invite you to visit the pastor's study by calling in with your questions our time will be

lively useful and I assure you never dull.

Join us this Saturday at 12 noon Eastern Time for a visit to the pastor's study.

Because everyone needs a pastor welcome back.

This is Chris Arns and if.

You just tuned us in our guest today for the full two hours has been and continue will continue to be

Dr. Tony Costa professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary.

We are discussing the need for apologetics to debate or not to debate

and if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own our email address is Chris Arnson at

gmail .com.

Chris Arnson at gmail .com and please provide your first

name your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside of

the good old USA.

One of the things that people object to when it comes to debates Dr. Costa is they will say

well these don't really settle the matter definitively on an issue because you could

have a superior debater who is defending the wrong position and an

inferior debater defending the truth.

So why even bother doing these things.

How.

Do

you

respond to

that

kind

of

thing?

I would

respond by

saying oh ye of

little faith.

I think it's important

Chris when we

speak the

gospel when we speak the

word to me all the

ends of the earth we turn

on to the

end of the

gospel of the

Catholic Church.

You're

the gospel.

Yeah

it's.

Interesting how people will put a completely different litmus test of

something's worth on for instance a debate

as opposed to a sermon for instance.

I have heard over and over again as I've seen a lot of these debates and I have never seen

one of the debaters change his mind.

That's one thing.

And.

And has anybody really come forward to you after these debates and say that they

now have come to believe the truth they've now converted.

They are now born again or whatever.

Well first of all even if droves of people do not do that after a

specific debate occurs.

I have heard about especially people whose lives have been transformed by watching or listening to the

recordings and the videotapes and the YouTubes and so on.

But you don't typically have genuine conversions at every

sermon that is preached.

You have obviously some.

And you have some churches that have altar calls.

Well there they will be claiming that dozens if not hundreds of people are

getting saved.

But very often we know that those are spurious accounts of salvation.

That very often they're just people going forward to either serve their own consciences to

make their loved ones happy.

Or because of curiosity or because they were momentarily moved by something

emotionally or whatever the case is.

You know that these to say that so then therefore to say that a sermon is not worth

preaching just because people aren't going to be necessarily at that moment miraculously

transformed or even change their opinion.

You're not going to.

Hold the same standard to a preacher.

So why

hold it to a

debate.

I know

another

gentleman

in

particular

in the

gospel.

And then another came

along.

I did not know

about this

Jehovah's

Witness

gentleman.

Until at

least in

design movement.

The designer who made the universe

and so amen.

And yes I don't.

Know if he became a Christian but he became a became a theist though.

Yes yes.

I think you're right.

He did

not conclusion that God

exists

but

yes and.

This is it's just amazing how people will focus on

on inter -religious debate as the only inappropriate form of public

exchange between people.

One or two or more people of opposing views.

People would think it's ridiculous to have a election or even

an election in within local government without any kind of public debate having taken place.

People many of them would be outraged by that.

People think there's nothing wrong with having debates about health and nutrition and

exercise.

People who have different views.

You have health and nutrition experts who disagree with all kinds of things with each other.

You have people who disagree on sports who will have you

know very heated dialogue at times on television and on radio and

in in writing and so on.

Why is it.

That's something that's infinitely more important when it involves matters that involve the

eternity of the individuals listening and watching.

Why is it this.

Considered the most appropriate thing

to debate.

When it comes

to debating and you could see I

mean you will you'll see debates like you've

never seen a deep insecurity.

I think that there is I think a fear.

Any any

anything else.

Bottom line it's an insecurity.

I think people are afraid can be shown to be

false.

It's and

yet we

don't pay much attention to the things

that are so

much on the material.

Yeah

and

people really have got to examine their motives for these.

Oppositions that they have because some people may look at their religion as

this precious jewel that they don't want anybody else to have they want to keep it private and personal.

In fact that is a very common thing said my religion is between me and God.

Well if your religion is important at all and if it's true why are you

clutching onto it and not letting anybody else aware of what it is.

Why on earth.

If you had the cure to cancer or AIDS or any other

disease that was killing people by the millions if you had this cure why wouldn't

you want to share it.

The only conclusion I could draw is that either you're selfish and

your own personal feelings of fuzziness and warmth and

happiness are more important than the eternal lives of anybody else.

Or you don't really think that this right thing you cling to.

Is all that real or true.

It's just your own tradition or a part of your culture that you cherish.

Or it's just a part of the legacy that your family has handed down.

And you know there's an old black gospel song that goes we'll

be friends to the end of time.

But you go to your church and I'll go to mine.

And there may be a truth in that sentiment that is appropriate when you're dealing with brothers in Christ who

have reached an pass where they realize look I'm not going to be able to convince you of

this particular thing or that.

But when it comes to polar opposite Gospels and religions that are

you know have a different answer to eternal life then this is a matter that

cannot be taken with such a glib matter of all will be friends till the end of time.

But you go to your church and I'll go to mine.

I mean that's just not right.

Not the appropriate response.

Well I think.

Socrates made this claim once he said the unexamined life is not worth living.

And I think that we can apply that theologically that the unexamined faith is not worth believing.

And so if your faith cannot stand the buffeting of

it cannot withstand the

analysis of various people then really can it really stand.

And this is again part of this postmodern ideology I was talking about that postmodernism basically says what

religion is a personal thing.

It's something that you keep to yourself and and truth is science and that

belongs in society and in the classroom.

So what postmodernism

does is like the

analogy you used about the the cancer patient.

If we discovered her and I did not share that

alleviate suffering I would be the most evil.

We have the

antidote.

The antidote to this world build is the church is actually spinning

by by putting that light under a bushel.

I mean why else would the Lord Jesus tell us who

lights

steam

by all

men.

I will

not confess

was once

for a

head.

Well you have to engage people.

You have to defend the gospel.

This is something

the tree

you

know even if

you're

looking at

things that

are more

temporal like.

Friendships and relationships.

When you're paralyzed and fear not wanting to harm a friendship or

or put a distance or a wedge between you and somebody that you care about

and you you're afraid that these kinds of things may end a or or spoil it.

What is a strong friendship based on it's typically

involves people that know a lot of details very important

details about one another's lives.

Now of course there are boundaries to that.

There are certain details that go on between a husband and wife and so on that are not to be shared with others.

But if you really want to have a strong healthy friendship with

somebody you're gonna want to know what it is that is most important to them.

And there need not be such a great cavernous

wedge that is developed with someone because you disagree with them religiously or theologically or

doctrinally.

This way I think that your communication is just more realistic and genuine.

I mean when I was talking to a local pastor who is

much more ecumenically minded than I am with Roman Catholics and others he was

he had this apprehension about something like this forming greater wedges

between him and those of other faith systems here in the area.

And I said well do you want your relationship to be based on sweeping things under the

rug where you just talk about those things behind the backs of others that you think that

you want to develop friendships with.

Is that really what a real friendship is involves where you talk about that

person or group of people behind their backs to your own like -minded gatherings of people.

And then you when you're in an involvement of sharing time or or or

interacting with these people who are doctrinal indoctrinal or religious

disagreement with you.

You just sweep everything under the rug and you can decode it.

I mean it reminds me of that proverb

that faithful are the wounds of a friend but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful

right.

Think of the Prophet Elijah when when he went to Mount Carmel and and you know Chris that he was not going there for an

ecumenical meeting.

And and when he went there to Mount Carmel it was not to sit down with the priests of Baal and say

you know let's talk about.

You know we believe in peace and love and compassion and loving thy neighbors by

self and so forth.

No Elijah went to mark Mount Carmel to engage in in the first UFC challenging

between God and Baal.

And the the whole outcome of that event was to show that Yahweh was not

Baal.

And Baal was not Yahweh.

And you cannot serve two masters.

And the Lord Jesus Christ never compromised of his

day.

He could have he could have simply said look let's don't you join my movement.

And we'll join with you.

And and we'll just talk about the things that we hold in common.

Well truth does not work that way.

We're dealing here with

the the eternity.

But if they reject that

to stand

for

that gospel

patronizing nonsense I

are together

right.

And even if you want to.

Compare this situation to the most intimate of

human relationships a husband and wife.

If you love your wife or your if it's a woman listening her husband

more than any other person next to perhaps your children.

Are you going to keep important things secret from them.

Are you going to all right.

Do you not want to know what makes them tick.

Do you not want to know what they believe is the most important thing that

involves not only here but the everlasting eternity that awaits them.

I mean it makes no sense that people think that it's wrong to confront in

love those that we disagree with with the the errors that we

believe they have and vice versa.

Like for instance let's just let's just focus here for a second on

the or for a moment I should say on the debate that we're having

God willing next Friday Mary sinless Queen of Heaven or sinner saved by grace.

If Mary is who the Roman Catholic Church says she is

we Protestants had better repent and start venerating her and

giving her the adoration.

That is do her.

If the Roman Catholics are wrong they better repent because they're guilty of idolatry.

This is not some this some issue that we can live and let live

over.

I mean this is something that is deadly.

Serious absolutely.

And either Mary is sinless or she's a sinner.

I mean it it's one or the other.

It can't be both either she is a sinless mediatrix who mediates between

humans in Christ and or she is a sinner saved by grace like the rest of us.

But I think another another thing that's at stake here to Chris is that when we start

compromising the

faith

as we

are because there's

a

factor

it

was

not just

a must

take a flip high as

royal

back now

having

done

all of

the.

Defending of debates that we have done.

Obviously there are people who have misused these venues

for a demonstration of their own pride and for

hatred towards those that disagree with them.

I mean there are people as we even mentioned earlier that have no place or gifts

or abilities to be in a venue like this publicly defending truth and

exposing error.

Because even those that are in equipped

inadequate to do such things.

There are those who are just they are filled with hate.

They are they are bigoted because someone someone disagrees with their own

precious little tradition.

There are people that I've even met in the process of

organizing this event who are Baptists who are more of the fundamentalist persuasion

who it seems that they are just as much in opposition to me as they

are Roman Catholic.

And you know there are people that that shouldn't be doing this.

But just as there are preachers that use the pulpit to spew hate doesn't mean that we're going to

give up on preaching and.

Having the assembly of the

Brethren

at the church

every

week

right.

I mean I love

I love Muslims.

I don't agree with them theologically but and I want

them to see.

I want to see them

to be turned back to

weird on TV shows

where I speak.

On apologetics but I love Roman.

And we're out of time.

Tony I'm sorry and I know that the Toronto Baptist Seminary website is tbs .edu.

Yeah.

And everybody please email me if you're interested in either the debate or the luncheon or both.

And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.

We look forward to seeing you at the debate and the luncheon.

God bless.