January 2 Show with Todd Friel on “The Upcoming G3 Conference” PLUS Dr. Tony Costa on “The Need of Apologetics: To Debate or Not To Debate?”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host Chris Arntzen. Good afternoon

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming.

This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all happy Monday on this very first Iron Sharpens Iron broadcast in 2017,

Monday, January 2nd, and I am delighted to have back on the program

Todd Friel, host of Wretched TV and Wretched Radio. He's going to be talking about the upcoming

G3 conference that we will both be attending, God willing, in just a matter of a couple of weeks and later on the second part of our program we have the privilege of Dr.

Tony Costa being our guest again and Dr. Tony Costa, as many of you remember from previous broadcasts, is the professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary.

He is my keynote speaker at the upcoming Iron Sharpens Iron pastor's luncheon at the

Carlisle Vault Catering Hall and he is also going to be debating the following night on Friday the 13th of all dates in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

He's debating Roman Catholic apologist Robert Syngenis on the theme, Mary, Sinless Queen of Heaven or Sinner Saved by Grace.

So we hope that as many of you as possible can come to those events but first let me welcome back to Iron Sharpens Iron Todd Friel of Wretched TV and Wretched Radio.

Three things to start. Number one, as I am the first guest of the year, here's what you know

Chris, it's all uphill from here. Second of all, are you the announcer guy who did that Iron Sharpen?

That sounded like you, is it you? No, I think that you being in broadcasting should know that you don't have the host to the introduction as well.

That's why I'm asking, but it sounded a little bit like you. Go ahead.

You said Friday the 13th as if somehow there's some sort of magic behind it.

Are you superstitious? Did you just walk under a ladder? Well, I'm not superstitious but obviously some people are.

That's why there's a debate on the sinlessness of Mary. Yeah, that to me,

I think Mary answered the question. In the Magnificat she made it clear she needed a

Savior. Amen. She's not the co -redemptrix, she's a sinner, and there's nothing in the

Bible to suggest in any way shape or form that there was an immaculate conception of Mary. And even if you do that, somehow you've got to keep kicking the can back.

Well, so were her parents not sinless? What about her grandparents? Yeah. What about her great -grandparents?

Nobody was a sinner all the way back to Adam who threw the whole world into sin. It's just not a sustainable position.

Yes, it is not, and it is amazing that people have been converted from biblically sound

Protestantism into these mindsets and beliefs. I'm absolutely astonished.

In fact, Robert St. Genes, the Catholic debater who actually is a friend of mine, I've known him since 1996

I think, even though we are vehemently opposed to one another's positions on these matters, he was a

Presbyterian in a conservative Bible -believing Presbyterian denomination, and he actually became a

Roman Catholic, which just absolutely astonishes me. But it goes to show you that no matter how much knowledge a person has in their mind, it takes the grace of God and a miracle in the heart by God himself for someone to believe the truth of the

Scriptures. Yeah, I don't imagine, I just find it hard to fathom.

You know, Presbyterians, Protestants would say, you're saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Jesus Christ alone.

Roman Catholicism says, let me give you a laundry list of things to do, and you better make sure you don't sin along the way, and if you do, this is what you need to do, and even so you're going to end up in purgatory working things off.

Why would you want to swim the Tiber to a work -righteous system?

I don't understand it for the life of me. I don't either, but what I have sensed is that, believe it or not, there is,

I think, a comfort that people have in thinking that the priest and the sacraments take care of everything.

I don't really need to be all that self -conscious, because this is not the

Roman Catholic Church of the 16th century and prior, when people were being executed and tortured, and where hell was being hammered on people, even up through the mid -20th century.

These modern times, the Catholic Church is so modernistic and liberal. I think people like the idea of the priest.

I don't need to know the Bible, the priest does all the learning. I don't really need to do anything but receive the sacraments, and I'm okay.

And of course, that's not what the official dogma of Rome teaches, but that is the way

I think a lot of Catholics think today. Yeah, I think that's an aspect, obviously tradition.

I also think that there's a lack of understanding of a Protestant heritage. In fact,

I dedicated a chapter to this subject for moms and dads to make sure that their children understand, your

Christian heritage does not go back to Billy Graham. It goes back much further.

Please meet Martin Luther, John Knox, Zwingli, meet the Reformers, meet

Calvin, and learn that's your Protestant heritage. And they were reclaiming, not reinventing, they were reclaiming what we read about in the early

Church Fathers. That's your heritage. Go back and read Origen. That's your, you know, these men, and they had some wonky stuff that they needed to work through, too, in the early

Church. But you've got a heritage, and you don't have to become a member of the

Catholic Church, because they would say that their heritage goes all the way back to Peter.

Well, your heritage goes back to Peter, too, it's just a different channel. By the way, as long as I brought up the subject at the

G3 conference coming up in three weeks, now I believe, give or take three weeks, I get to speak on the subject of, was

Peter the first Pope? Let me give you one reason out of the 25 that I have prepared to say, no,

Peter was not the first Pope. If you recall Matthew 16, great section of Scripture, as if the other sections aren't, they're all great, but great section of Scripture.

Jesus interrogates the disciples, who do people say that I am? And they let

Jesus know that there are all kinds of wild ideas about Jesus, and then he said the probing question, but who do you say that I am?

Peter steps up, you are the Christ, the Messiah, the Son of the

Living God. Jesus reminds us that Peter didn't concoct that, that he wasn't persuaded through logic or reason, or that he somehow made himself a

Christian. My Father revealed that to you. And on this confession, little stone, this boulder of a confession, little rock,

Peter, I'm going to build my Church. Now, the Roman Catholic Church has said, well, Jesus was saying that Peter was going to be the foundation of the

Church. Well, here's one reason why I would like to suggest to you that Jesus was not making

Peter the first Pope when he said, on this confession I will build my Church. If you simply scoot a few verses later,

Jesus clarifies to them, I'm going to Jerusalem, and I am going to die.

Peter protests, no, that will not happen to you.

Jesus responds to the first Pope by calling him Satan. That's probably a sign that Peter was not a

Pope. By Jesus Christ. Now, is that really going to be your theme?

Oh, that Peter, oh, there's, yes, that is, I mean, that's not the only theme. But we see immediately, well, then there's a few verses later, the disciples ask the question, audacious question, how do

I go about the business of being the greatest in the kingdom? Right? If Peter were the greatest in the kingdom,

Jesus would have hit his forehead and gone, hey, knuckleheads, I already told you. Peter, the guy, he's the foundation.

Listen up. But instead, he didn't say that at all. He said, it's the servant that's the greatest.

So just example after example, Peter himself called himself a fellow saint.

Not the preeminent, we're all saints. I don't need to wait for a lengthy process to be deemed a saint by a group of men.

Jesus has made me a saint. If you're in Christ, you are a saint. You are called as saints, just like Peter, just like Mary.

Well, it is quite providential that you are actually preaching on that theme or speaking on that theme at the

G3 conference. I had no idea that that was your topic and quite a providential thing since I'm having this debate next week on the sinlessness of Mary out here.

And if anybody could derive from the scriptures that one of the biblical characters, prominent figures in the scriptures would be a pope, it would certainly be

Paul over Peter, if you were to derive something like that. Yeah, well, we see that even in the book of Acts that Peter pretty quickly gets eclipsed by Paul in focus.

Now, if Peter was the foundation of the church,

I don't think we'd see that happen in the book of Acts. Yes, and Paul was the only one of the two that went to Rome as well, that we know of anyway.

Yeah, you know, speaking of Paul and Peter, think of Galatians. I confronted the pope to his face publicly, telling him he's sinning.

If Peter were the pope, that's not what Paul would have done. So, just case after case after case that the foundation of the church is

Jesus Christ, and even if you want to be persuaded that the teachings of the apostles are the foundation, the teachings of Peter are the foundation, okay,

I'll grant that. What are the teachings about? Jesus Christ. So no matter how you slice this bread, you come to the same place.

Jesus is the foundation of the church. Did you really have an opportunity to confront the pope to his face?

I haven't had the opportunity, but then again, I'm not Hillsong. I guess

I misunderstood you, because I was wondering if the Swiss Guard beat the living daylights out of you at some point.

You know, I think it was my wife who was showing me a meme that the pope was saying that this whole

Donald Trump scheme of building a wall is a terrible idea, and it was a picture of the Vatican with that wall.

Well, you know, one thing that I think can be said that is good that has brought both

Catholics and Protestants into more harmony after the election of Donald Trump, now all

Americans have a leader that believes he's infallible. I don't have anything to apologize to God for.

Well, for our listeners who are unfamiliar with Wretched TV and radio, which is probably very doubtful that they'd be unfamiliar with it, but if you could tell our listeners about these programs.

Yeah, we do these shows. Okay, now that we've got that out of the way, if you happen to be listening and you're

Roman Catholic, please do not hear that we are trying to be disparaging or that we are trying to mock you for your belief.

We are not doing that in the slightest. We want you to know that all of your sins—past, present, and future—can all be forgiven if you will rest from self -righteous works and rest in the works of Jesus Christ.

All of your sins can be gone, and you can be in a right relationship with your God starting this second.

So our desire for you is not to trash talk the Roman Catholic Church, but to point out their errors and to say that there's a better way.

It's called grace alone through faith alone in Jesus Christ alone, and if you have not entered into that grace, then today is the day of salvation.

When you repent, you turn from your sins, you don't become perfect, you just don't desire to sin anymore, you don't like those things that put

Jesus on a cross, and you put your trust in Jesus Christ and you can have the assurance—not based on my proclamation, but on the basis of the

Word of God—that your sins will be forgiven. Not by a man, not by a confession, not by works, not by paying money, but because of Jesus Christ.

And ask yourself the question, doesn't that make sense? If the entire Bible is pointing toward Jesus dying on a cross and the sacrificial system indicating our need for a

Savior, would God provide a partial Savior? A kind of Savior? No, He provided a complete

Savior, the God -man Jesus Christ. Repent and put your trust in Him.

Amen. I remember years ago hearing an analogy that if someone's son lost his life on the battlefield rescuing his comrades -in -arms and the parents of that young man who died on the battlefield, and I helped save those people, and the parents knew that their son alone had done this heroic deed that rescued the lives of others, everyone would agree that that would be a reason for those parents to be infuriated, to even be disgusted and sickened by the claim that someone helped this hero who died.

Now, if you multiply that by billions of times over, when you think about Christ and His finished work on the cross and His receiving the wrath of the

Father to pay for the sins of His people, for anyone to claim that they added anything, that they helped to save themselves, and that others, saints and Mary and all kinds of things helped because that work that Christ accomplished was not sufficient, that is just the utmost of a mockery of Jesus and His perfect work on Calvary, wouldn't you agree?

Yeah, a myriad of verses were popping in the brain, not the least of which is

Ephesians 2, 8, and 9. I don't know how it could have been more clear, made more clear, by grace are you saved through faith and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, so that nobody can boast, my glory

I will not give to another. God has, it's pretty simple, everybody ponders the teleological question, what's the purpose, why are we here?

Here's the answer, read Ephesians 2, 1 through 10, you're here to be a sinner so that Jesus can save you and He can get the maximum amount of glory for saving a wretched man or woman.

That's it. That's what the universe is about. So everything else is just window dressing.

God is driving toward an ultimate conclusion where He receives glory for assembling a church, the pride of Jesus Christ, so that He can be all in all.

There's the teleological question answered. I'm going to quick give our email address out for those of you wanting to ask

Todd Frela a question. It's chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Please include your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside of the

USA. We have Seth in Randleman, North Carolina, who said, please ask

Todd Freel if Benny Hinn will be doing any miracles when he speaks at the G3 conference. Just kidding, he says.

Now the serious question he has is what are your thoughts on Christian linking arms with Catholics for social justice issues like abortion, etc.

That's commonly, as you know, called, well I just slipped that out of my mind, the Abraham Kuyper term, oh, cobelligerence.

Do you believe in that, like for instance, you believe that evangelical Bible -believing Christians should be like, for instance, picketing abortion clinics with Catholics and doing all kinds of other things like that?

2 John 9 gives us the rule, don't do anything that would indicate to anybody who's watching you that you are in agreement with false teaching.

There's our rule. So now let's ask the question, if Glenn Beck, the

Mormon, asked me to go onto a stage at a rally in Washington, D .C. with a

Roman Catholic, a Jewish rabbi, an Islamic imam, Hindus, and we all talk about God, and we pray, and we maybe even sing

Amazing Grace, which they did, would somebody in that audience, if you as an evangelical were standing there, think, well

I guess, you know, maybe they all believe the same, you know, sort of the same, and all roads lead to God, would they be confused about Jesus Christ, grace alone through faith alone, that He is the way, the truth, and the life?

And if you conclude, yes, that could happen, then you don't do it. I personally believe that doing events like that, being a cobelligerent, it undermines the command given in 2

John 9. Well, thank you very much for the great— Oh, wait a second, was it

Seth from South Carolina? Yes, Randleman, South Carolina, yes. Yeah, well I got a question for you,

Seth. Why is gas in South Carolina cheaper than every place else in the country? What's the deal?

In fact, actually, I think it's Randleman, North Carolina that Seth lives in. Oh, never mind.

But we do have a South Carolinian. We have Edwin. Edwin is from Lexington, South Carolina, and he says,

I recently was speaking to a friend who tried to refute me saying that Jesus named

Peter the shepherd, and that was a simple point that proved him being the first pope in John 21, 15 through 17.

Is this a common belief, and if so, how should we answer it? Well, I think we need to remember the difference between exegesis and eisegesis.

If you did not know that there is a large body of people who claim that Peter was the first pope, would you read that story in John and conclude, you know what,

Jesus was elevating him to the highest status inside of the visible church on earth?

And I think you would conclude, no, you have to bring that into the text. Remember, it's such a beautiful scene in John 21.

The disciples are out fishing. They're catching nothing. A man on the shore says, try the other side.

That's not the first time that happened. Jesus, the first time he met the disciples, did the same thing.

So he's hearkening back to their original call. Peter recognizes it's the

Lord, so he jumps into the water and comes ashore. And Jesus, the language in John is very clear, had a particular type, a wood -burning fire.

Why that detail? That Jesus had made a wood -burning fire to serve them a meal.

How's about because it was a wood -burning fire that Peter was warming his hands with when he denied

Jesus three times. Now Jesus asks him three questions.

Do you love me? Feed my sheep. Do you love me? Feed my lambs.

Do you love me? Tend my sheep. It's two feeds and one tend. What was he doing? He was, if you will, not making

Peter the Pope, but saying, you're forgiven. Now carry on and go do what you're supposed to be doing.

And it's none of your business about what I'm going to do with John. So he was not making him the Pope. He was saying to Peter, who undoubtedly, and we know this because he wept bitterly, reinstating him into ministry, your sins are forgiven,

Peter. Feed my sheep, tend my lambs. Well, thank you, Edwin.

By the way, Edwin, in Lexington, South Carolina, since you're a first -time questioner, you're winning a free genuine leather

New American Standard Bible that will be shipped out to you probably within a week or so.

Please give us your full mailing address in Lexington, South Carolina, so we can have that shipped out to you by Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com,

who sponsor the Iron Sharpens Iron program. Thank you very much for your question. We have

Tyler in Mastic Beach, Long Island, New York, who says, why is it that many evangelicals tend to lean toward an

Arminian understanding of the rather than monergism, which is clearly taught in Scripture?

Yeah, I think there's at least a couple of reasons, but number one is that's been the predominant message of evangelicalism for a long time, starting with Charles Finney in the 1850s, in traditional regeneration.

He was really the one who kicked off the seeker -sensitive movement and using, well, manipulative tactics to get people to make a decision to become a

Christian. And from there, that message just, it caught on.

So it's been the predominant message that you have got to do something. You've got to make a decision.

You've got to ask Jesus into your heart. You've got to make Jesus your Lord and Savior. I think we've also gotten a little bit sloppy with our language, but this kind of relates to the last question about John 21.

Consider when Jesus in Revelation 3 is talking about the church. I stand at the door and knock.

Now, in that verse, you're going to notice no particular organs are mentioned.

How do we know that he's knocking on the door of our heart? Why isn't it the door of our liver?

It doesn't tell us that he's saying, I'm knocking on your heart, you need to open up your heart and let me in.

That's not what the text says. We import that into the text. This is exegesis versus eisegesis.

There's nothing in the Bible that says you do something to contribute to your salvation.

Now, in fairness, let's be honest, there are some verses that maybe make it seem like we have to make some sort of a choice.

I agree with that. That is there. So I'll give that ground, that we as human beings, we make a genuine decision.

Now, please note a decision doesn't say Jesus saves when we repent and put our trust in him. Actually, he saves us, grants us repentance and faith, but that's getting a little bit detailed.

That we genuinely need to respond to the gospel. That's clear.

But here's what else is clear. If God doesn't act on us, we won't respond. If God doesn't do it, we won't respond.

So you've got that tension. And I think that a lot of people just haven't been able to figure out a way to resolve that tension.

And finally, I think the reason that it's kind of caught on so much is they perceive that the doctrine that God elects is mean.

Why doesn't God, you mean there are some people that he's just not going to save? That doesn't seem compatible with God.

And I get, I understand that sentiment, but let me ask you a couple of questions.

Number one, did you ever read about the chosen people called the Jews in the Old Testament and say, hey, why, why, why, why, why didn't he pick the

Moabites? No, because God can choose whom he chooses.

And if you still go, but that still seems to make God mean, why, why, why does he just elect some and not all or everybody?

You're only kicking the can down the street. God could save everybody, but he doesn't.

So we still have to figure out a way to resolve two clear teachings in the

Bible. God elects. We make a genuine decision. And ultimately,

I think what happens, Chris, we kind of find ourselves going, I can't figure that out in my brain perfectly.

And that might lead somebody to go, therefore, there's something wrong with the Bible or God.

No, if you can figure out everything about God, that is very bad news.

There must be some aspects of God that cause you to go, I don't get this at all.

I can't, because his ways are higher. You maybe wrangle over the concept of the Trinity.

It's presented in Scripture. And you say, but I can't get it. That doesn't mean it's not true.

What it means is there are some things that our puny human brains can't figure out.

But that's the way the Bible presents it. And we submit to that. Amen. Well, I want to thank you so much for being a guest,

Todd. Hopefully next time you can be on longer because we're already out of time. And perhaps we could even discuss that excellent article you wrote over a year ago, perhaps even longer ago on 10

Reasons Why You Should Not Invite Jesus Into Your Heart. I don't know if you recall that article that you wrote, but I shared that with quite a bit of people.

It was an excellent article. But I know that Wretched TV and Wretched Radio can be found on wretchedradio .com,

wretchedradio .com. Anything else you'd like to add before we go turn over to Tony Costa for the next part of the program?

If you're not going to G3, check out G3 Conference. Take a look at the people who are there and join Chris, join me, join

Paul Washer, Bill Johnson, Steve Lawson. We are going to have a riot at the G3 Conference.

Amen. G3conference .com, g3conference .com. They've already got well over 2 ,000 people registered and I think they have room for something like 400 more.

So we look forward to seeing as many of you as possible there. Well, thanks a lot, Todd. It's always a great joy for me to have you on the program.

Well, that's what I was going to say. I always enjoy it, Chris. I appreciate that very much. And thanks for those ads that you recorded for the

G3 Conference. You're welcome.

We're going to be hearing one in a second. Oh, cool. All right. Carry on.

All right. God bless you, brother. And now we're going to a station break.

And if you'd like to join us on the air with a question for Dr. Tony Costa of Toronto Baptist Seminary, Professor of Apologetics and Islam, you can email us at chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

chrisarnsen at gmail .com. Don't go away. We'll be right back with Dr. Tony Costa and our theme, the need of apologetics to debate or not to debate.

I'm Chris Arnsen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. And here's one of my favorite guests, Todd Freel, to tell you about a conference he and I are going to.

Hello, this is Todd Freel, host of Wretched Radio and Wretched TV and occasional guest on Chris's show

Iron Criticizing Iron. I think I think that's what it's called.

Hoping that you can join Chris and me at the G3 Conference in Atlanta, my new hometown.

It is going to be a bang up conference called the G3 Conference celebrating the 500th anniversary of the

Protestant Reformation with Paul Washer, Steve Lawson, D .A. Carson, Votie Baucom, Conrad and Bayway, Phil Johnson, James White, and a bunch of other people.

We hope to see you there. Learn more at g3conference .com, g3conference .com.

Thanks, Todd, I think. See you at the Iron Sharpens Iron exhibitors booth.

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Pastor's Study every Saturday from 12 noon to 1 pm Eastern Time on WLIE Radio, www .wlie540am

.com. We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you, and we invite you to visit the

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Join us this Saturday at 12 noon Eastern Time for a visit to the Pastor's Study, because everyone needs a

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But thank you, Bill Shishko, for all you have done to encourage me in the work here on Iron Sharpens Iron.

Now we have joining us for the remainder of the program Dr. Tony Costa, who is

Professor of Apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary. He's a published author, he is a conference speaker, he is a debater, he's a mutual friend of Dr.

James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries and myself. In fact, that's where I first heard of Dr.

Tony Costa was on, I believe, on the Dividing Line program that James White hosts, and I am so excited that he,

Dr. Tony Costa, is coming out here next week to be involved in two major events, which we will be discussing in a bit.

But it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron, Dr. Tony Costa. Well, Chris, as always, it's always a pleasure, and Happy New Year to you.

Happy New Year to you, and Dr. Costa, as I mentioned earlier at the very beginning of the program when

I had Todd Friel on, Dr. Costa is involved in two events here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

The first is next Thursday on January 12th from 11 a .m. to 2 p .m.

It is a pastor's luncheon, and all men in ministry leadership are invited to this free event, whether you are a pastor, a deacon, a president, or a leader of a power church organization, someone who is just actively involved in some leadership role in your church.

And this is restricted just for men. We cannot accommodate the wives either, so we apologize for that inconvenience.

But this is a men's luncheon, it will be next Thursday, absolutely free of charge, but please

RSVP by a week from today, next Monday, if you could

RSVP if you're planning on attending, that would be very helpful to us. You're going to get a free gourmet lunch.

Every pastor there, or every man there, is going to leave with a very heavy sack filled with free books that have been donated by major Christian publishers all over the

United States and United Kingdom. This is a really extraordinary event, and Dr.

Tony Costa is the keynote speaker, and I'm looking forward to hearing that. Then the following night at the

Carlisle Theater in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, Dr. Tony Costa is going to be debating

Robert St. Genes, a Roman Catholic apologist and founder of Catholic Apologetics International.

Their theme is going to be, Mary, Sinless Queen of Heaven or Sinner Saved by Grace. That's Friday the 13th of January, 7 p .m.

at the Carlisle Theater in Carlisle, Pennsylvania. For more information on both of these events, you can email me at chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

and please put luncheon or debate or both in the subject line.

And by the way, I want to let everybody know who is traveling from out of state. We already know that there are people coming from New York, New Jersey, Washington, D .C.,

Maryland, Virginia. Well, the Comfort Suites, which is right around the corner from both the debate venue and the luncheon venue, within like a 30 -second walk of both places.

Comfort Suites has got a special rate for you if you mention Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

You will get $69 a night as your fee for lodging there, and that's about half.

That's even, I think, less than half of what they normally charge. So that's a very good rate, and I will be posting the website for Comfort Suites on the program's website as soon as possible.

But I hope that many of you may be more likely to travel from out of town knowing that you've got that great rate.

But we will keep you posted on the exact details on registering.

Well, actually, I have right now, right in front of me, the website is ComfortSuitesCarlyle .com.

ComfortSuitesCarlyle .com is where you could go to register, and we hope that you take advantage of that.

Dr. Costa, it's so great to know that you are coming out here. It's so great to know that our mutual friend

David Wood of AnsweringMuslims .com is going to be the videographer at the event, and my friend

Anthony Uvinio is going to be the moderator. But it is such a pleasure to know that a man of your caliber is coming out to Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

Can you tell us what it is that you plan on speaking on at the

Pastor's Luncheon, first of all? Yes, at the Pastor's Luncheon, I'm going to be addressing the issue of post -modernism in our society, but particularly the influence that it has had on the

Christian church as well. And I'll also be speaking on another aspect of post -modernism, which is known as cultural

Marxism, and how it has compromised the concept of truth in society at large, how it has compromised and influenced the destruction of the family as we know it, the nuclear family, and also the view that evangelicals, unfortunately, are getting trapped up in the idea that truth is found in every religion, and the idea that sincere people can go to heaven.

So we'll be addressing some of those key issues, but particularly the deterioration that post -modernism and cultural

Marxism has had on society and also in the church. Well, that sounds like a very appropriate topic for this day and age we live in.

And one of the things that I wanted you to address today is the need for apologetics today, and the subtitle, to debate or not to debate, that is the question.

Because there are people coming from different streams of theological thought, even from opposite ends of the spectrum, 180 degrees opposite from another, who radically oppose or oppose in some level of opposition, having debates, public moderated debates, with people that have opposing views, especially if one of the participants is someone that does not believe in the gospel of Jesus Christ, as we believe the

Bible clearly explains it and teaches it.

You have on the left, obviously, those who think that there can be nothing productive that comes from these kinds of things, which will only inevitably hurt people's feelings.

That this is an exercise in meanness, and some would even call it hateful bigotry, even though there's people on both sides of the issue being represented in the debate, so I can't understand that logic at all.

But then you have even on the other end of the spectrum, I know some folks personally that would agree with you and I, theologically, on many, if not the vast majority of things, who would be coming from a very conservative point of view, who are opposed to debates because they say to me, for instance, you are giving a platform to a heretic, you're giving a platform for the false teacher to expose people to damning and deadly doctrines, so therefore

I do not believe what you're doing is appropriate. So how do you respond to those two extreme sides of the spectrum who both disagree with debates?

Not that apologetics is all wrapped up in that one area, we can get into the broader stream or the broader field of apologetics after this specific question, but if you could comment on both sides of the spectrum on that.

Well, first of all, let me just say that the idea of apologetics and defending the faith is something that is clearly commanded in Scripture, 1

Peter 3 .15, we're told to sanctify Christ as Lord in our hearts and always be ready to give a defense, an apologia, an account, an answer for all those who ask of us.

So the idea of defending the faith is something that is commanded. I remember the late Dr. Walter Martin once said that controversy for the sake of controversy is a sin, but controversy for the sake of truth is a divine command, and I think that those who oppose debates assume that this just ends up as just a controversy for the sake of controversy, and the fear is that, as you rightly put it, that we're giving a platform to the enemy to disseminate false doctrine and false theology.

But I think it's important to understand that the idea of debating in the history of the

Church is something that actually goes right back to the New Testament, and I think that it's important that our hearers take the opportunity to read the book of Acts, particularly chapter 17, where we are told there that when the

Apostle Paul went to Athens, we're told that he first went and ministered to the

Jews in the local synagogue, and then after that we're told that he went into the marketplace and he reasoned with people.

That word reasoning there is the word that we get the word logic from, logismos, and the idea there is that he reasoned with them persuasively, and if you know anything about Greek society, particularly first century

Greek society and ancient Greek society, the Greeks were very well known for their philosophy and their debating skills and rhetoric, and ultimately the

Apostle Paul ends up, if you read the book of Acts chapter 17, at the very end he is challenged by the philosophers, the

Stoics and others, to debate at Mars Hill, also known as the

Aeropagus, and it was a amphitheater where people would gather to hear orators and to hear speeches and so forth, and what is very interesting is that when

Paul was challenged by these Athenian philosophers, Paul didn't back down and say, absolutely not,

I'm not going to give you a platform to disseminate false doctrine and so forth. Paul grabbed at the opportunity and met their challenge.

He went to the Aeropagus, or Mars Hill, and there he gives his famous speech about the altar to the unknown

God, and Paul proceeds to give them the account of God's sovereign right to create and to judge and to provide and so forth, and then he ends up by presenting the gospel and the resurrection.

Now, what is interesting is that in verses 32 to 34 of Acts 17, we're told here that after the people had heard

Paul speak about the resurrection of the dead, it does say that some mocked, and others said, we will hear you again on this matter, but then it also says that some men came to believe in the gospel and were saved and began to follow the

Apostle Paul. So, the idea of debating is not only entrenched within the

New Testament, we see it in Acts 17, but if you look at the early history of the Church, some of the great fathers of the

Church were apologists. People like Justin Martyr, for instance, and one of Justin's famous pieces is known as,

Dialogue with Trifle, the Jew, where Justin Martyr engages in a debate with an unbelieving

Jew about the Messiahship of Jesus, and again, he argues persuasively that Jesus is

Messiah and that Jews should come to repentance and believe in him. And we also know that Justin Martyr produced a number of what we call apologies, his first apology, where he defends the

Christian faith to the Roman Emperor. So, it's very important to understand that the idea of debating, we believe that Jesus Christ is the truth, we believe that truth will prevail, and what public debates do, and I've been engaged in a number of them with various opponents, different faiths and philosophies and worldviews, the thing that debates do,

Chris, is they show the world that Christians are not afraid to take on its opponents, that we believe that truth will ultimately prevail, and that God sovereignly has used debates, as he did with Paul and others, to bring people to faith.

And I could share with you about folks who were Muslims and how they came to Christ after being at one of my debates, where I debated a

Muslim imam, and they heard the Gospel, and they came to faith in Christ.

So, there is a place for debate, and if you're someone who's given over to what

I call spiritual hypertension, and you have high blood pressure when you deal with controversial issues, maybe debating is not for you.

But God has certainly called people within the Church who are gifted in that area, and I could think of my good friend

Dr. James White, in particular, I don't think I'll ever do the number of debates that he has done, he's like John Wesley, preaches more than anyone else

I know. But I could say this, Chris, debates do have results,

God sovereignly works through them, and what we do is, once again, we're not afraid to take on the opponents.

And this is the problem with the Church, is the Church has become so insular, we have receded back from critical analysis, we recede back into our little corners.

When Jesus tells us that we ought to be the salt of the earth, light of the world, he tells us not to put our light on our bushel, we should put our light on the stand, so that it may be seen by all men.

So it's really important that believers come to realize that debating is a powerful tool when it comes to sharing the gospel, and God can't sovereignly use it to bring people to faith.

Yes, well, there is a naivete, I think, that some conservative people who agree with us theologically, who simultaneously oppose debates, there's a naivete to think that, and it's even,

I think, a wrong approach to think that Christians can or should be sheltered from the false teachings that others are teaching and preaching and writing about.

We should be in some way equipped to have an intellectual or intelligent discourse with these people, because we meet them every day.

I mean, unless you live in some kind of a conservative Protestant monastery, you are going to be meeting and talking with people, at least you should be.

You should be either at work on a lunch break, or around your holiday dinner table, or wherever, when you're sitting at a ball game, or any other sphere of life where you are having an interaction with those outside of your faith system, you are going to be left with opportunities to engage these people in very important conversations about the truth and to protect people, if that is even the right word, to shelter people, might be the better word, shelter people from these false teachings and teachers completely.

You may be leaving people totally unprepared to respond to what they have to say, because they may be hearing it for the first time, they may be hearing certain arguments for the first time, and they may be totally tongue -tied.

Am I right? Yes, you're absolutely correct. And think of it this way too, Chris. Do we send any of our military men and women, do we send them out into the battleground without military training?

Well, of course not, unless we want them coming back in body bags. But when we send out our men and women who are in the

Army or the Navy, the Air Force, etc., we train them. They are trained in military warfare, and we send them out to know how to protect themselves from the enemy.

And the same thing applies to the believer. The Apostle Paul talks about in Ephesians 6 how we ought to put on the whole armor of God, and we must be prepared against the flaming arrows of the evil one.

And so, if we don't protect our children by telling them what to expect, and I see this on a regular basis,

Chris, where families, mothers and fathers come to me and tell me that their children have gone off into the

New Age movement, they've converted to Islam, they've gone into Eastern mysticism, and so forth.

And many times, the reason why this happens is because many of our young people don't know why they believe what they believe.

And if you don't know why you believe what you believe, then how are you going to be able to defend it when you are confronted with another challenging world, too?

And I think that Christians must become aware that hymns like,

Onward, Christian Soldiers, and Stand Up, Stand Up for Jesus, mean exactly that, that we are in a warfare, a spiritual warfare.

And I like what Paul says in 2 Corinthians 10, 3 -5, that he says that even though we walk in the flesh, we do not war, we do not engage in warfare after the flesh, the weapons of our warfare, he points out.

Dr. Costa, are you there? I think we lost connection with Dr. Costa.

I'm sorry? Yeah, you kind of cut out there, and I thought that maybe we lost you. Okay, all right, no,

I'm here. And what I was mentioning, 2 Corinthians 10, 3 -5, Paul talks about how even though we walk in the flesh, we don't wage war like the world does after the flesh, and that the weapons of our warfare are powerful.

They bring down strongholds, they cast down imaginations, and every reasoning, every thought that seeks to exalt itself above God.

So you cannot avoid warfare. You don't go to war by hiding in a corner. We have to realize that if we do not instruct and teach our young people, we're going to lose them.

And my concern right now, Chris, is for the next generation. My concern is for the young folks in the

Church who are going out into higher education, college and university, where they're going to be challenged by their professors.

And if they are not trained in spiritual warfare, military warfare, in terms of their faith, they're going to be rattled.

And in some cases, here in Canada, in the province I live in, in Ontario, statistics show that when young folks go off to university,

Christian boys and girls, when they go off to university, statistics show that 80 % of them do not come back to Church.

So that is an alarming rate. And the reason for that is because they do not know how to adequately defend their faith before their peers, before their professors, and before the critics.

We're going to be going to a break right now. If you'd like to join us on the air with a question for Dr. Tony Costa about apologetics, you can also specifically ask him about anything involving

Roman Catholicism, since he is going to be debating a Roman Catholic next week here on Long Island.

Long Island. Carlisle, Pennsylvania. If people are wondering why

I said Long Island, it's because I spent most of my life, until four years ago, in fact,

I spent all of my life on Long Island, New York, and arranged probably close to 25 debates featuring

Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries on Long Island, and 10 of those were with Roman Catholics.

But anyway, that's where that slip of the tongue came from. But because of the fact that Dr.

Costa is debating a Roman Catholic apologist here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania next week, you may ask a question on Catholicism, even on Islam, since one of his specialties, one of the areas of his focus in apologetics is

Islam. You can ask about that as well. Our email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. And when you write, please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence, if you live outside of the good old

USA. Don't go away, we will be right back after these messages with Dr. Tony Costa.

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Paul wrote to the church at Galatia, For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am

I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ. Hi, I'm Mark Lukens, Pastor of Providence Baptist Church.

We are a Reformed Baptist Church, and we hold to the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689.

We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts. We strive to reflect Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how

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Apostle's priority, it must not be ours either. We believe, by God's grace, that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man, and to be vessels of Christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us, and to build up the body of Christ in truth and love.

If you live near Norfolk, Massachusetts, or plan to visit our area, please come and join us for worship and fellowship.

You can call us at 508 -528 -5750, that's 508 -528 -5750, or go to our website to email us, listen to past sermons, worship songs, or watch our

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Hi, I'm Pastor Bill Shishko, inviting you to tune in to A Visit to the Pastor's Study every

Saturday from 12 noon to 1 p .m. Eastern Time on WLIE Radio, www .wlie540am

.com. We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you, and we invite you to visit the pastor's study by calling in with your questions.

Our time will be lively, useful, and I assure you, never dull. Join us this Saturday at 12 noon

Eastern Time for a visit to the pastor's study, because everyone needs a pastor. Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen, if you just tuned in today. Our guest today for the full two hours, with a little less than an hour to go, is

Dr. Tony Costa, who is Professor of Apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary in Canada.

He is also our keynote speaker next week, Thursday, January 12th, 11 a .m.

to 2 p .m. at the Carlisle Vault Catering Hall. He is going to be speaking on postmodernism and other things to the pastors present.

That's absolutely free of charge for any man in ministry who would like to attend, if you are SVP, by next

Monday. Then the following night, he will be debating Roman Catholic apologist Robert St.

Genes on the theme, Mary, Sinless Queen of Heaven or Sinner Saved by Grace, that's at the

Carlisle Theatre in Carlisle, Pennsylvania. For more information on both events, please email me at chrisarnzen at gmail .com,

chrisarnzen at gmail .com. You can also email me at chrisarnzen at comcast .net, chrisarnzen at comcast .net.

And please put either luncheon or debate or both in the subject line.

Dr. Kost, the thing about those who are more prone to sentimentalism, earlier

I identified this as maybe the left -wing disapproval or rejection or opposition to debates and that kind of thing.

That may have been an overstatement because you have many within so -called

Bible -believing evangelicalism who are not liberal in their theology, but they are overly sentimental and overly concerned about the feelings of others over and above their concern for their never -dying souls.

And they view things like this as something, oh, I don't want to be involved in that.

What good can come out of that? That's just going to hurt people's feelings. It's going to cause greater division.

You know, why are you even doing things like this? This is just so hurtful and that kind of a thing. And I've had a lot of people over the years who are from evangelical churches tell me this.

And I have said to many of them that if you really want to develop a close friendship with someone, let's say who is a

Roman Catholic or even a Muslim or somebody of another religion, are you going to keep secret those things that you differ with them on?

Are those things never going to be brought up in a conversation with them? And if they're not, how much could you possibly care or love them by letting them go about, go on with their lives without knowing the truth of what the

Bible teaches on a particular issue? Or is it that you don't think that these issues are that important anyway?

Maybe these things that you say you believe, they're not really that important to you.

Perhaps the gospel of salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, and Christ alone, perhaps that's just to you an interesting biblical concept, but it's not all that important in the grand scheme of things.

But if you could comment on the reaction to those folks who are not only liberal, but even your average wishy -washy sentimental greeting card evangelical, or as some people,

I forget who coined the phrase, evangelifish, but if you know what I'm talking about.

Yes, I know exactly what you're talking about, and that's why we need to talk about postmodernism at that pastor's luncheon, because that is the result of postmodernism in the church and in our society, and also what you see in the emergent church as well.

And you're absolutely right, Chris, it's an attitude that is more concerned about what men think than what

God thinks, and I would rather have men angry at me than have God angry at me. And I think it's important for us to understand that truth matters, not just sentimentality, but truth is preeminent here.

When the Lord Jesus Christ confronted evil, and when he confronted error, he used some of the strongest language in the

New Testament. He would refer to false teachers as blind guides. He would talk about them as white sepulchers filled with rotten bones.

He talked about the blind leading the blind and falling into a pit. He refers to those who are sons of their father, the devil, who rejects his truth and who rejects his salvation.

Jesus would say things like, depart from me, you cursed ones, into the everlasting fire. And he would use very, very strong language, a generation of vipers who has warned you of the damnation to come.

And this was not just the Lord Jesus Christ. We see Paul in Acts 13, when he confronts the magician

Ilymas, he refers to him as a child of the devil who never ceases to pervert the right ways of the

Lord. And so what has happened in our society is that we have become so given over to the subjective idea that the worst thing you can do to someone is hurt their feelings.

And so you hear this a lot in our postmodern age about people being offended and how they need safe space and how they need to be respected and how we should care more about how people feel.

And the problem with that, of course, is that truth has nothing to do with feelings. Truth is not a subjective, wishy -washy feeling.

Truth is an objective standard that is rooted in the triune God of Scripture. And I think it's extremely important for us to realize that what we have to do as followers of Christ is we need to speak the truth in love.

Remember when Jesus met the Samaritan woman. It's a beautiful story in John chapter 4. Jesus meets this woman, a

Samaritan, which was a taboo thing to do. No Jewish man, especially a rabbi, would be caught speaking to a woman, much less a

Samaritan woman. And Jesus enters into a dialogue with her over a simple question, can

I have a drink? And if you remember how the story proceeds, Jesus offers her this living water.

And then she says to him, well, I perceive that you are a Jew and you believe that it's in Jerusalem.

We ought to worship God, but we believe it's on this mountain, Mount Gerizim. And Jesus turns to her and says, you know not what you worship, for salvation is of the

Jews. And what is interesting about that is Jesus had no reservation about confronting her on her theological error.

He told her that what she worshipped was worshipped out of ignorance. And so what we see here is that he spoke the truth in love, as Paul says in Ephesians 4 .15.

And at the end of the day, what people need is they need the truth, they need to know that they are in a fallen condition, they need to know that they are rebels against the

Holy God, and that they have to lay down their arms and they have to surrender to the Lordship of Jesus Christ.

And so the Lord Jesus had no time for the sentimentalities of the religious leaders of his day, the apostles had no time for this.

Truth is of the essence. And until we realize this, we're simply going to see a culture that is going to continue to drown in this post -modernistic thinking.

And what we see in the Western world, for the most part, is really cultural suicide.

We are simply committing cultural suicide on a grand scale because part of that is we've abandoned the concept of an objective moral standard, which is rooted in God, and we have given way to this post -modernistic subjective moral relativism.

So I think it's really important that we realize that it's the truth that saves men's souls, it's not the happy -go -lucky feelings that we seek to instill in them.

We need to be truthful, because at the end of the day, we're going to be responsible to the

Lord Jesus Christ. We have David in Ada, Ohio.

And David says, in the Bible, the word debate is used in both a do not debate and a do debate way.

One is sinful, the other is not. Please explain the difference. There are two different Greek words used in each.

You didn't cite the text that he's referring to, but perhaps you know. Right, right. I think that just like any other word, words are defined by their context.

And you'll remember at the beginning of the show, I quoted the late Dr. Walter Martin, who rightfully said that controversy for the sake of controversy is a sin.

And I think that's the negative aspect of debate. Some people just like arguing for the sake of arguing. And I've got a lot of folks on Twitter who like doing that.

They just keep arguing for the sake of arguing. And that is sinful. That is wrong. But controversy or debating for the sake of truth is a divine command.

That's what Paul does in Acts 17. He does that at the Oropagus. He does that in the marketplace where he persuades people with reasoning and so forth.

So once again, it's how we approach the subject. Are we doing this simply for the sake of argumentation, or are we doing this for the sake of truth?

And so I obviously, I engage in this because I believe that the truth can be exalted.

I believe that the gospel can be communicated in an effective manner, and that the

Holy Spirit can convict the hearts of men and women through this means. So it all depends on the context,

Chris. Just like the word jealousy in the Bible. Jealousy is bad, in one sense, when it is envious and covetous.

But jealousy is also good when the jealousy of a husband for his wife is a good and holy thing, because it is a protective jealousy.

The same jealousy God has over his people, where he is a jealous God who is protective of his people.

So it depends on the context. And I'm assuming that you would agree that even though every

Christian should be ready to give an answer for the hope that lies within them, and they should be ready to defend biblical truth and expose error and heresy and aberrant teaching and dangerous teaching and practice within the confines of their homes, within casual settings with friends and family and loved ones and neighbors, that this role of getting up in front of a crowd of people at a scheduled, public, moderated event is very foolhardy and unwise for someone who just has some kind of cockiness or confidence that they know enough about the truth to do this kind of a thing.

You have to be really prepared to defend the truth of God through training and study long before you would step into an arena like this, wouldn't you agree?

Because you may be bringing reproach upon the church by very sloppily and inadequately seeking to defend the truth and expose error.

No, I totally agree with you, Chris. Every Christian is called to be an apologist, but not every

Christian is called to be a debater. And we see examples of that in Scripture. In Acts 18, we hear of Apollos, who was mighty in the

Scriptures and how he communicated the Scriptures in a very effective way before the crowds.

But Priscilla and Aquila, we're told, had to take him aside and explain the

Word of God to him more clearly. That is, they had to give them the coming of Jesus and the fulfillment of the

Scriptures with the coming of the Messiah. But Apollo was known as a great orator. And of course, Priscilla and Aquila did not do that.

I mean, we are more effective on the ground level, on one -on -one relations. That's how most people come to faith, is through one -on -one relations.

That is, taking the time, investing time with people, having coffee with them, having a meal with them, as you alluded to earlier.

But as Ecclesiastes 3 says, there is a time for everything, and there is a place and time for debate.

And I think that there are certain people that the Lord has specially gifted for these areas.

They're there to equip the body of Christ. And I don't think that if someone is there to go into a boxing match, that's not the right attitude, and it has nothing to do with sophistry.

It's not about how eloquent you are. It's something that you do to honor the Lord Jesus Christ. It's something that you do out of love for fallen people.

And I know that in many of my debates, Chris, especially Muslim debates, a lot of my Muslim friends will come up to me and say, you know,

I don't agree with you, but I know that you are sincere, and you try to represent us accurately, and you do care.

So I think you're right. There's a gift here. There's a calling here. Not everyone's a debater, but everyone is called to be an apologist.

You know, I think David in Ada, Ohio, may have been referring to specifically, at least in the

King James Version, Romans 1 .29 and 2 Corinthians 12 .20, refer to debates and debating as something negative.

In Romans 1 .29, being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, malice, full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, etc.

Then we have 2 Corinthians 12 .20, for I fear lest when I come I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not, lest there be debates, envying, wrath, strife, backbiting, whisperings, swellings.

I remember specifically there was a King James only preacher down south somewhere who began attacking me for having debates that featured our mutual friend

Dr. James R. White, who wrote the book that is world famous now, the

King James only controversy. Even D .A. Carson, who wrote a book on the same subject, thought that Dr.

White did a better job or more thorough job and refers people to that book that Dr. White wrote.

When I challenged this man, this pastor, this King James only pastor to be involved in a debate with Dr.

White or to get someone he felt would be more gifted and suited to publicly defend the position of King James only -ism, he said, oh no, that would be wicked because of the verses that I just quoted to you from the

King James version. First of all, that has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

This has nothing to do with scholarly, public, moderated exchange between people of opposing views.

Am I right? This is not the word. Absolutely.

I was just going to say, Chris, that I'm engaged in a problem, engaging with a pastor here in Toronto on something similar to the

King James controversy, where I'll be debating a pastor who holds to the majority text view.

I hold to the critical text view. But it's going to be an in -house debate, and we understand that this is an in -house debate between two

Christians, and we want to discuss the issues openly. So there's a time and place for that, and there's nothing sinful about two brothers trying to come and trying to understand each other's positions.

Yes, there is something cowardly about being someone who stands on a soapbox and publicly maligns the opinions of others, even a brother in Christ, and rips them to shreds, and especially when they fill their rhetoric with slander and even on the level of idiocy at times, that these people will not have the courage and the confidence of their convictions and the ability to defend them to get into a debate.

If you're going to be publicly vociferously slandering somebody, or obviously they wouldn't view that as slander, they would be viewing it as exposing wickedness, but if you're going to do that, have the courage to face those people and debate them.

Isn't that a very appropriate Christian response to somebody like that? Absolutely. I mean, if you think of the

Reformers, I think of the debate in Marburg in Germany between Luther and Zwingli, and of course it wasn't meant to be a negative debate where they were attacking each other.

It was basically Zwingli was trying to join with Luther and form an alliance,

Switzerland and Germany, at the time, and they talked about various things that they agreed on,

Sola Fide, Sola Gratia, Sola Scriptura, and so forth, but of course the one thing they couldn't agree on was the view of the

Lord's Supper, and of course Luther would not budge on that topic, but notwithstanding that,

Zwingli reached out his hand, the right hand of fellowship, to Luther, so it is not unusual for Christians to sit down and discuss these issues.

It can be done, and so what is funny about that King James Only fellow you're talking about,

Chris, is that he says that, well, we shouldn't be doing any of these debates and so forth, but then, as you said, they get on the soapbox and start attacking a brother in Christ and slandering, which is also sinful.

Right, and by the way, when Luther had the famous Reformation debate on the bondage of the will with Erasmus, was that actually a public event, or was that just in writing?

It was in writing. They went back and forth, so Luther wrote the bondage of the will, Erasmus wrote the freedom of the will.

Okay, well, we're right now going to our final break. It is amazing to me how fast time has flown by.

We're going to our final break right now. If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own for Dr. Tony Costa, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

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USA. Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages. Chris Arnson here, and I can't wait to head down to Atlanta, Georgia, and here's my friend

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Bayway, Phil Johnson, Rosaria Butterfield, Todd Friel, and a host of other speakers who are dedicated to the pillars of what

G3 stands for, gospel, grace, and glory. For more details, go to g3conference .com.

That's g3conference .com. Thanks, James. Make sure you greet me at the

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Welcome back, this is Chris Arnson. If you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours has been and will continue to be

Dr. Tony Costa, Professor of Apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary.

We are discussing the need for apologetics to debate or not to debate.

And if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail dot com, chrisarnson at gmail dot com, and please provide your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the good old

USA. One of the things that people object to when it comes to debates,

Dr. Costa, is they will say, well, these don't really settle the matter definitively on an issue.

Because you could have a superior debater who is defending the wrong position and an inferior debater defending the truth.

So why even bother doing these things? How do you respond to that kind of a thing? I would respond by saying, oh, ye of little faith.

And I think it's important, Chris, to understand that when we speak the gospel, when we speak the words of God, I mean, we think of someone like Charles Haddon Spurgeon.

Who did God use to convert the great Prince of Preachers? It was a simpleton, a tailor who was called up to preach because the pastor was not available, and all this poor tailor could do is just quote from Isaiah 4520, look unto me, all the ends of the earth and be saved.

And God used a mere tailor, and Spurgeon would later speak about how his English was very, it was not sophisticated in the least.

But yet God uses this mere simpleton to draw Spurgeon to himself, to salvation, and to make him one of the greatest preachers that this world has ever seen.

And so what I would say is that Paul says that God uses the weak things, the beggarly things of this world to show his power, and he uses the foolish things to show his wisdom.

And we should never underestimate the power of the word of God. We think of Isaiah 55, where the Lord says, my word that goes forth from my mouth will not return unto the empty.

It will accomplish whatever I send it to do. We need to understand that the word of God is powerful.

It's sharper than any two -edged sword. And also that it is the power of God unto salvation wherever the gospel is preached.

It doesn't matter by whom, whether it's a professor, whether it's a shoemaker.

It doesn't matter who it is. When the word of God is proclaimed, Romans 116 says that the gospel is the power of God to salvation.

And so it is not so much in the medium that is the person who delivers the message.

It's the medium itself. The medium is the word of God. And when the word of God is preached, I believe,

Chris, people come to salvation. I came to faith. I was raised in a Roman Catholic church.

But I got to hear the gospel, because every time the scriptures were read, even though it was twisted and veiled by the

Romans' interpretation, when the word of God is proclaimed and heard, it does something to you.

The spirit of God uses that and regenerates the human heart. And so I never underestimate the power of God's saving word.

Yeah, it's interesting how people will put a completely different litmus test of something's worth on, for instance, a debate as opposed to a sermon.

For instance, I have heard over and over again, I've seen a lot of these debates, and I have never seen one of the debaters change his mind.

That's one thing. And has anybody really come forward to you after these debates and say that they now have come to believe the truth, they've now converted, they are now born again or whatever?

Well, first of all, even if droves of people do not do that after a specific debate occurs,

I have heard about especially people whose lives have been transformed by watching or listening to the recordings and the videotapes and the

YouTubes and so on. But you don't typically have genuine conversions at every sermon that is preached.

You have obviously some, and you have some churches that have altar calls where they will be claiming that dozens, if not hundreds of people are getting saved.

But very often we know that those are spurious accounts of salvation, that very often they're just people going forward to either salve their own consciences, to make their loved ones happy, or because of curiosity, or because they were momentarily moved by something emotionally or whatever the case is.

So then therefore to say that a sermon is not worth preaching just because people aren't going to be necessarily at that moment miraculously transformed or even change their opinion, you're not going to hold the same standard to a preacher, so why hold it to a debate?

Right. Well, first of all, I usually tell them, first of all, I ask them, who do you think I am, Billy Sunday? Billy Sunday was able to knock down the first three rows, but what

I would say to that, is that I have seen people, you're right, people who've heard debates who've come to faith,

God has been pleased to use that to bring people to faith, but I've also seen debaters. I know one

Muslim in particular who's no longer a Muslim, with whom I also engaged in debate, he has left

Islam, he's made that very public. Now, he's not become a believer, but he is, let's say he's in a limbo state trying to figure things out, but my debates with him and others have helped him to see the error of Islam, and for that reason he openly admitted that this is what led him to reconsider and to leave

Islam. I know another gentleman in particular with whom I debated, a

Jehovah's Witness in particular, and several years later I met him at an event and remembered him, and he remembered me, and I realized this was that Jehovah's Witness elder that I was sharing the

Gospel with and debating with, and he had shared with me how the Lord had saved him, and one of the things he told me was, he says, he said,

Tony, I'll never forget the time we dialogued together and we talked and we went back and forth, he said, you may not realize it, but the

Holy Spirit planted a bushel of seeds when you shared the Gospel with me, and then another came along and watered and so forth.

So there are people who, yes, who do engage in debates, who do come to faith. I did not know about this

Jehovah's Witness gentleman until at least six, seven years later. So we do not understand, we cannot see the hearts of men and women, but to say that none of them convert is not true.

I think of the late Anthony Flew, who debated with Dr.

William Lane Craig and Dr. Gary Habermas from Liberty University, and how he was a staunch atheist for many decades, and then near the end of his life he shocked the world by actually admitting that he believed that God existed, and that he was convinced that the evidence that he saw, for instance, in the intelligent design movement, compelled him to seriously consider the idea that there is indeed a designer who made the universe and so forth.

So Dr. Flew is one example of this, how later in his life he did come around to acknowledge that God truly did exist.

Amen, and yes, I don't know if he became a Christian, but he became a theist though.

Yes, yes, I think you're right, he did not claim confession in Christ, but the fact that his one line was, he quoted

Socrates, where he said, I simply followed the evidence where it led me, and it led him to the conclusion that God exists.

But he simply come to the conclusion that Romans 1 has already established, and that is God has made his existence already known to humans.

So what he did with Christ, whether he converted on his deathbed, only God knows.

Yes, and this is, it's just amazing how people will focus on inter -religious debate as the only inappropriate form of public exchange between people, one or two or more people of opposing views.

People would think it's ridiculous to have a presidential election, or even an election within local government without any kind of public debate having taken place.

People, many of them would be outraged by that. People think there's nothing wrong with having debates about health and nutrition and exercise, people who have different views.

You have health and nutrition experts who disagree with all kinds of things with each other.

You have people who disagree on sports, who will have, you know, very heated dialogue at times on television and on radio and in writing and so on.

Why is it that something that's infinitely more important, when it involves matters that involve the eternity of individuals listening and watching, why isn't this considered the most appropriate thing to debate?

I think, personally, Chris, and I think it's a very good question, and you're absolutely right when it comes to sports.

I mean, you're probably a Philadelphia Flyer fan, I'm not sure, and up here in Toronto we have a lot of Maple Leaf fans, but, you know, when it comes to debating and who's the better team, etc.,

etc., you could see, I mean, you will see debates like you've never seen. But I think the reason why people try to avoid spiritual -based debates,

I think a lot of it has to do with a deep insecurity. I think that there is, I think, a fear, an internal fear that perhaps they may be wrong.

There's an internal fear that if their faith is demolished, then they won't have anything else to look out for, or any objective worldview, and so forth.

So I think, bottom line, it's an insecurity. I think people are afraid that if this is an area that can be shown to be false, it's going to have disastrous consequences on their lives, and so forth.

But you're right, we tend to focus on the temporal, we tend to focus on the things that are seen, and yet we don't pay much attention to the things that are unseen, and that are of infinite value.

And I think it just goes to show how materially influenced we have become as people.

We have focused so much on the material that we have forgotten the spiritual aspect of the human being.

So, in my opinion, I think the reason why people try to avoid these things is because they know, in a deep level, that you're dealing with infinite matters, you're dealing with eternity here.

And I think that most folks are probably afraid, deep down, that they may be in error.

And so I think there's a fear factor here. Yeah, and people really have got to examine their motives for these oppositions that they have, because some people may look at their religion as this precious jewel that they don't want anybody else to have.

They want to keep it private and personal. In fact, that is a very common thing said, my religion is between me and God.

Well, if your religion is important at all, and if it's true, why are you clutching onto it and not letting anybody else aware of what it is?

Why on earth, if you had the cure to cancer, or AIDS, or any other disease that was killing people by the millions, if you had this cure, why wouldn't you want to share it?

The only conclusion I could draw is that either you're selfish, and your own personal feelings of fuzziness and warmth and happiness are more important than the eternal lives of anybody else, or you don't really think that this thing you cling to is all that real or true.

It's just your own tradition or part of your culture that you cherish, or it's just a part of the legacy that your family has handed down.

There's an old black gospel song that goes, we'll be friends to the end of time, but you go to your church and I'll go to mine.

And there may be a truth in that sentiment that is appropriate when you're dealing with brothers in Christ who have reached an impasse where they realize, look,

I'm not going to be able to convince you of this particular thing or that. But when it comes to polar opposite gospels and religions that have a different answer to eternal life, then this is a matter that cannot be taken with such a glib matter of, we'll be friends till the end of time, but you go to your church and I'll go to mine.

I mean, that's just not the appropriate response. Right. Well, I think

Socrates made this claim once. He said the unexamined life is not worth living.

And I think that we can apply that theologically, that the unexamined faith is not worth believing. And so if your faith cannot stand the buffeting of the critics, and if it cannot withstand the attacks and the analyses of various people, then really, can it really stand?

And this is, again, part of this postmodern ideology I was talking about, that postmodernism basically says, look, religion is a personal thing.

It's something that you keep to yourself, and truth is science, and that belongs in society and in the classroom.

So what postmodernism does is it privatizes the self. It privatizes your personal beliefs, particularly when it comes to religion.

But if we do have truth, and I like the analogy you used about the cancer patient.

If we discover, if I had discovered the cure to cancer and I did not share that with the world so that we could alleviate suffering and save the lives of millions of people,

I would be the most evil person in the world to withhold that type of available assistance and relief to patients.

But yet we're doing this on the spiritual level. We have the antidote. The antidote to this world's ills is the

Gospel. And what we're doing is, the Church is actually sinning by putting that light under a bushel.

I mean, why else would the Lord Jesus tell us, who lights a light and puts it under a bushel? It's meant to be seen by all men.

And the reason why I think Christ emphasizes this point is because He knows that the tendency is for us to keep our light to ourselves.

And I think that it behooves us as disciples of Jesus Christ to understand that the

Lord Jesus warned us that if we are ashamed of Him in this wicked and adulterous generation,

He says, I'm going to be ashamed of you when the Son of Man comes in His glory. I will not confess you before my

Father and His angels if you do not confess me before men. So I think what we're seeing in the

Church is a spirit of cowardice. I think it's a retreat. The Church should be advancing against the gates of Hades, not retreating.

And so this is why apologetics is so important. Jude tells us in his little letter,

Jude verse 3, he tells us to contend for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.

And how do you contend? Well, you have to engage people. You have to defend the Gospel. You have to proclaim the

Gospel. So this is something that we have lost. It's something that I pray that the

Church will retreat, that we will look back to our heritage and see people like Irenaeus and Justin Martyr.

Think of Polycarp, that old Christian martyr who was a disciple of John the

Apostle, and how he was willing to set a time and debate people and give reasons for the faith that he had.

So it's time for Christians to come out of the shadows and to take a stand for the Gospel.

It's the only, only antidote, remedy that this world has. You know, even if you're looking at things that are more temporal, like friendships and relationships, when you're paralyzed in fear, not wanting to harm a friendship or put a distance or a wedge between you and somebody that you care about, and you're afraid that these kinds of things may end a friendship or spoil it, what is a strong friendship based on?

It typically involves people that know a lot of details, very important details about one another's lives.

Now, of course, there are boundaries to that. There are certain details that go on between a husband and wife and so on that are not to be shared with others.

But if you really want to have a strong, healthy friendship with somebody, you're going to want to know what it is that is most important to them.

And there need not be such a great cavernous wedge that is developed with someone because you disagree with them religiously or theologically or doctrinally.

This way, I think that your communication is just more realistic and genuine. I mean, when

I was talking to a local pastor who is much more ecumenically minded than I am with Roman Catholics and others, he had this apprehension about something like this forming greater wedges between him and those of other faith systems here in the area.

And I said, well, do you want your relationship to be based on sweeping things under the rug where you just talk about those things behind the backs of others that you think that you want to develop friendships with?

Is that really what a real friendship involves, where you talk about that person or group of people behind their backs to your own like -minded gatherings of people?

And then when you're in an involvement of sharing time or interacting with these people who are in doctrinal or religious disagreement with you, you just sweep everything under the rug and you can decode it.

I mean, it reminds me of that proverb that faithful are the wounds of a friend, but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful.

Right. Right. I think of the Prophet Elijah when he went to Mount Carmel. And you know,

Chris, that he was not going there for an ecumenical meeting. And when he went there to Mount Carmel, it was not to sit down with the priest of Baal and say, you know, let's talk about the commonalities that we have.

You know, we believe in peace and love and compassion and loving thy neighbors thyself and so forth. No, Elijah went to Mount Carmel to engage in the first UFC challenging between God and Baal.

And the whole outcome of that event was to show that Yahweh was not

Baal, and Baal was not Yahweh, and you cannot serve two masters. And the

Lord Jesus Christ never compromised his gospel message with the religious leaders of his day.

He could have simply said, look, let's just get together, and why don't you join my movement, and we'll join with you, and we'll just talk about the things that we hold in common.

Well, truth does not work that way. We're dealing here with the eternity of...we're dealing with the eternal destiny of souls.

We're not dealing here with light matters. We're talking about eternity.

We're talking about the souls of human beings. And I think that we've lost sight of that. We've lost sight of the fact that truth matters, or as Dr.

White always says, theology matters. And so if the gospel is the truth, and if people will face the judgment of God if they reject that gospel,

I mean, it behooves us. It demands of us that we take a stand for that gospel, and we proclaim it without compromise, but to play this patronizing nonsense of just, you know, holding hands and singing kumbaya together and pretending everything is fine, we're doing a great disservice to our fellow man.

We are actually contributing to their damnation. Right, and even if you want to compare this situation to the most intimate of human relationships, a husband and wife, if you love your wife, or if it's a woman listening, her husband, more than any other person next to perhaps your children, are you going to keep important things secret from them?

Are you going to...do you not want to know what makes them tick? Do you not want to know what they believe is the most important thing that involves not only here, but the everlasting eternity that awaits them?

I mean, it makes no sense that people think that it's wrong to confront in love those that we disagree with, with the errors that we believe they have, and vice versa.

Like, for instance, let's just focus here for a second on the, or for a moment,

I should say, on the debate that we're having, God willing, next

Friday. Mary, sinless queen of heaven or sinner saved by grace. If Mary is who the

Roman Catholic Church says she is, we Protestants had better repent and start venerating her and giving her the adoration that is due her.

If the Roman Catholics are wrong, they better repent, because they're guilty of idolatry.

This is not some issue that we can live and let live over.

I mean, this is something that is deadly serious. Absolutely, and either

Mary is sinless or she's a sinner. I mean, it's one or the other. It can't be both. Either she is a sinless mediatrix who mediates between humans and Christ, or she is a sinner saved by grace like the rest of us.

Those things matter. But I think another thing that's at stake here, too, Chris, is that when we start compromising the faith for the sake of political correctness, what we're doing is we are actually mocking the perfect once -for -all sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

Because if we could be saved just by being nice people, just by being good to our neighbors and so forth, then we have to ask the question, why did

Christ die? What was the value of Christ's atoning death? Well, his death, he gave his life up as a ransom for many, because it was the only means by which we can be reconciled to a holy

God. And I think we really have to consider the fact here that when we act like this and give in to this type of political correct thinking, what we're doing is we are robbing the cross of its power.

Because what the cross says is that it's this way and no other way. When Jesus said,

I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father except through me, he made the claim that he was not just an element of truth.

He's not just a portion of the truth. He was not just a way among many ways. He says, I am the way.

I am the truth. And when Pilate asked him that ominous question, when he told

Jesus, are you a king? And Jesus said, it is for this purpose that I was born, to be a witness to the truth.

And everyone who is of the truth hears my voice. And then Pilate asks that ominous question, what is truth?

And it's interesting that the Lord Jesus did not answer that question, because the truth was standing in front of his eyes, under his nose, and Pilate missed it.

In other words, Christ himself is the truth. There is no other way but him. That's not an attractive message.

The exclusive message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but we must take a stand for that.

We must take a stand for that. We must lift high his royal banner. It must not suffer loss.

Now, having done all of the defending of debates that we have done, obviously there are people who have misused these venues for a demonstration of their own pride and for hatred towards those that disagree with them.

I mean, there are people, as we even mentioned earlier, that have no place or gifts or abilities to be in a venue like this, publicly defending truth and exposing error.

Because even those that are inequipped, inadequate to do such things, there are those who are just, they are filled with hate.

They are they are bigoted because someone disagrees with their own precious little tradition.

There are people that I've even met in the process of organizing this event who are

Baptists, who are more of the fundamentalist persuasion, who it seems that they are just as much in opposition to me as they are a

Roman Catholic. There are people that shouldn't be doing this, but just as there are preachers that use the pulpit to spew hate, it doesn't mean that we're going to give up on preaching and having the assembly of the brethren at the church every week.

Right. I mean, there's two poles we should always avoid, Chris. There's the one pole is the fire -and -brimstone creatures, the turn -or -burn type, and all they preach about is just judgment, judgment, judgment, hatred, hatred, hatred.

We can think of groups like the Westboro Baptist Church, for instance. Or then you go to the other pole, and you've got these churches that only preach is love, love, love, love.

They love -bomb you. God loves you. Everything is about love, love, love. And so you've got these two dangerous polarities, where one is just judgment, judgment.

The other one is just love, no judgment. The other one is judgment, no love. And I think the answer lies in the middle.

It's the happy medium. And I think Ephesians 4 .15 captures this, where the apostle says that we ought to speak the truth in love.

Now, I'll tell you, Chris, that I love Muslims. I don't agree with them theologically, but I love them.

Why? Because they are image -bearers of God. They may deny that fact, but they are made in God's image, and I want to see them regenerated.

I want to see them come to faith in Christ. Same with Roman Catholicism. I was raised in the Roman Catholic Church. Ninety percent of my family, or at least 95 percent of my family, are still

Roman Catholics. I love Roman Catholics. I've received a lot of nasty letters from Roman Catholics telling me that I, you know,

I was baptized in the Church. I should return back to Rome and so forth. There's people who've tried to boycott some of my programs in Canada because I've appeared on TV shows where I speak on apologetics, but I love

Romans. And we're out of time, Tony. I'm sorry, and I know that the Toronto Baptist Seminary website is tbs .edu.

Yes. And everybody, please email me if you're interested in either the debate or the luncheon or both, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater

Savior than you are a sinner. We look forward to seeing you at the debate and the luncheon. God bless.