Debate: Does the Bible Teach a Young Earth?

Sometimes I feel the weight of the world Fall down on me, so heavy

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It's your Calvinist Podcast with Keith Barsky Beards and bow ties, laughs till sunrise

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Calvinists, he's nice Your Calvinist Podcast is filmed before a live studio audience

And welcome to Your Calvinist Podcast, my name is Keith Foskey And as always, I am your

Calvinist Does the Bible present an age of the earth? And if so, does it present an old earth or a young earth?

Depending on who you ask, you're going to get different answers Well tonight, I have two men who have come to me wanting to debate one another

And I am happy to have them on the platform to be able to let them debate this very important subject

And I'm going to bring them on in just a moment, but before I do that I want to very quickly remind you that this podcast is a ministry of Sovereign Grace Family Church in Jacksonville, Florida So if you're in the area, please come visit us and you can find out more at sgfcjacks .org

Also remember that we are a partner with tinybibles .com You always see it sitting on the table next to me This is my tiny

Bible, and you can have one of your own if you go to tinybibles .com And you can get a percentage off by using my name,

Keith, as a discount code Well again, I'm so thankful to have the brothers with me today

And I'm going to bring them up now I have Matt, also known as the

Apollo Jedi And Adam from Curious Christianity Brothers, thank you both for being with me on the show today

Thanks for having us, Keith Yes, sir Adam, you there?

Looking forward to the conversation, appreciate it Absolutely Now, I want to also mention that this is a live show

So if you are watching this show on YouTube, know that this is happening in real time

So if you leave a comment during the live show, I'll be able to see it here on my computer And during the

Q &A portion, we're going to take questions from the audience

So if you have a question that you want to ask either Matt or Adam Please put in the question that this is a question for whoever it is, if it's for Matt or Adam And that will let me know who to direct the question to when the time comes

Alright, before we get started, I think it would be good to get to know our debaters a little bit So I'm going to ask each of these men to just take a couple of minutes

Share with us who they are, tell us about their ministries And what position they take in tonight's debate

Alright, Matt, we'll start with you Alright, thanks, Keith And thanks again,

Adam Before we get too far into it, this is a brotherly conversation As we both recognize that we are both

Christians in this conversation But a little bit about myself Mrs. Apollo Jedi and I have been married for 26 years

Our Padawans are out of the house And so I am a layperson at a

Presbyterian church in East Texas Faithful Presbyterian church, we're very thankful to be there

And my ministry, I guess, consists mostly of just writing blog posts and helping out in my local area

Excellent, brother, thank you so much And Adam? Yeah, so my name is

Adam and I run the YouTube channel Curious Christianity I'm kind of just getting started on hosting a lot more conversations about Christianity And my passion is really for broadening the conversation

And having conversations with Christians that I agree with and disagree with I think that that's how we really can help weed out the truth

And then lastly, you know what? I'm out here to kind of help set the record straight concerning Genesis 3

I've done primarily a lot of work in Genesis 3, 14 through 19 And I'm really looking forward to bringing that to the rest of the world

Alright, my friend, well thank you both again for being on the program today And I know the people who are watching came to see a debate

So we don't want to put it off too much longer But I am going to give them the outline of what to expect Because we're thinking it's going to be about an hour and a half debate

And here's how we break that down It's going to be two 10 -minute opening statements Both men are going to get an opening statement

Matt is taking the positive He's taking the thesis that the Bible teaches a young earth

And so he gets the first 10 minutes He also gets the last closing statement And so he will begin first And then

Adam will come in with the second 10 -minute opening statement After that there will be a 5 -minute rebuttal period

After which there's going to be 30 minutes of cross -examination Where it'll be 5 minutes of questions from one man to the other

Going back and forth until we have exhausted all 30 minutes And then once that is completed

We're going to look at the audience questions We're going to probably give about 20 minutes to audience questions

Unless there's just a ton of them that we need to go longer We can, but we'll see how it goes And again, this is the opportunity for you to participate

So if you're watching, please be watching And leave your questions so we know that you're there

And then at the very end, each man will give a 5 -minute closing statement Telling the world why they were right and the other person was wrong

So this is how the debate's going to go And I would like to ask the audience

Again, please pay attention to what these men are saying If you came here with your own position, that's great

Most of us do have a position on this But that doesn't mean we don't have anything to learn And one of the things about debates that is sometimes frustrating

Is people come in and they don't listen to the other side If you came in with a position tonight Please open your heart to the other side

Not because you think they might be right But because you always have something that you can learn And be listening as both sides present their case in the debate

So let's get started If you gentlemen are ready You are ready

All right, I'm going to turn everything over to Matt And he is going to have his opening 10 minutes

Matt, the floor is yours Thank you The word Trinity does not appear anywhere in the

Bible But we know from reading the Bible That the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Spirit is God And we know that God is one

Anyone who denies the Trinity is not a Christian The biblical teaching of a young earth is more clear than the

Trinity While people can deny a young earth and still be a Christian We must wonder why denial of a young earth is so pervasive

For 18 centuries, Christians have universally accepted The biblical account that the earth is young But with the advent of the modern scientific paradigm

Of deep time within the last 200 years Some in the church began to look for ways To bring the biblical account into concordance

With that deep time paradigm It's a trendy fad With many different ideas on how to do so From postulating that days actually mean eons

To inventing a billions of years gap Between Genesis 1 -1 and 1 -2 The ideas have been creative The trendiest of ideas

That is hyperbolically 15 minutes old Is that Genesis is agnostic To the ideas of age

And does not deal with material creation It's just a functional ordering Due to the influence of the writings of the

Hittites The Sumerians And other ancient Near Eastern people groups That were judged with destruction for their wickedness

All of these trendy ideas have one thing in common A specialized guru Who tells you that the words don't mean

What they are commonly understood to mean They mean something unique That only the guru with his secret knowledge can reveal

They say that it is the text of scripture That must be redefined So that the Bible can be brought into alignment

With the emergent dominant paradigm Is it valid to consider trendy ideas To make the

Bible concordant with worldly philosophies Or should we as Christians Uphold the authority of scripture as the magisterial

Principium If words have meaning at all Then accepting the

Bible's clear teaching Of what we now call young earth creation Is self evident It is at the expense of denying language itself

That fellow brothers in Christ Deny that the Bible teaches What I will defend tonight Does the

Bible teach that the earth is young I have three points One, the earth, the universe, and everything in it

Was created in six calendar days As the Bible says Two, the earth was created about 6 ,000 years ago

Because of the ages given in the corresponding accounts Of the unbroken royal lineage Of the seed from Adam to Abram In Genesis and Chronicles And from Abram to Jesus In Luke as the

Bible says And third, Jesus confirms that mankind Was made at the beginning of creation In Mark 10, 6

As Christians, we do not want to hold Things that are demonstrably false Genesis and the rest of scripture

Very clearly tells us That God created in six calendar days About 6 ,000 years ago

Most of God's word was passed on to us From the spirit inspiring the prophets and apostles But part of the case for a young earth

Was literally written by the hand of God In stone This was completely undisputed

But for the rarest of outliers For about 1800 years Until the end of the 19th century

And suddenly, when Darwin's idea of evolution Took hold of academia More time was needed to explain

His biological theory So it became trendy to see if the words in the Bible Could be stretched to accommodate

These naturalistic ideas Let's look at the text Number one, in the beginning

This may come up later as we identify That one of the trendy tactics today Is to stretch the word beginning

Far beyond all recognition The Hebrew grammar and the narrative structure Of Genesis 1 doesn't permit a time gap

Between verses 1 and 2 The vav consecutive and at the beginning of verse 2 In Hebrew implies a direct sequence of events

Use of Number two, use of the word yom Meaning day It's literally defined in Genesis 1

Number three, why did God not use Any of the deep time words That are available in Hebrew Like yamim, which is plural of yom

Or kadem, the days of old Or olam, the days of old None of those are used And some might object and say that Moses Didn't understand large numbers like billions of years

So God had to speak to this simpleton With simpleton language But this objection would be ignorant of the covenant

From Genesis 22, 17 Where God says, I will surely bless you And make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky

And as the sand on the seashore Number four God didn't communicate to Abram this way

In Genesis 1 He told him days Number four, sequential days

Are confirmed by the ordinal usage Of the text Had God wished to communicate non -sequential days

It would have been quite easy for him to say something like Sometime later or many years later Or as things developed over time

But instead he used language That we all understand to mean sequential consecutive days The point is clear

God was not giving some ambiguous myth The words of Genesis Have meaning of sequential

Consecutive calendar days Number five The days are bounded by evening and morning patterns

To separate the days Not eons, not years, not months But only days are bounded by evenings and mornings

God was being very clear That yom meant a calendar day In the context And number six

With the objection, but Matt Can't yom mean a time period Like in Genesis 2 -4

Yes Notice how they always choose Genesis 2 -4 And no one ever chooses Genesis 1

Because the context shows us That the usage of yom in Genesis 2 -4 Is completely different Than the usage of yom in Genesis 1

But I do agree that yom has flexibility Of usage As faithful Christians we should look to scripture

Rather than some outside false authority Like the scientific paradigm or the modern culture

Or ancient near eastern cultures Where can we look in scripture To find a usage of yom In the context described in Genesis 1

To give us the correct boundary of yom Exodus 29 -11 And Exodus 31 -17

It's very clear When it says, six days you shall labor And do your work For in six days the

Lord made heaven and earth The sea and all that is in them In the same way that God's people are expected to work

Each week, we can be certain That it took God the same amount of time To create the entire universe Because of what the

Bible says Number seven, here's the meat of the matter In Genesis 5 -11 Record the ages

When those in the unbroken royal lineage Of Jesus fathered their children The summation of these ages

Confirm that the earth is indeed young And lastly in Mark 10 -6

For at the beginning of creation God made them male and female Jesus is confirming that it was the beginning

When he created everything Everything else That he made mankind Remember, Jesus is the creator

He was there, he would know Those who have fallen prey to the lure of the modern scientific paradigm May say, well this passage is just about marriage

But this objection ignores The actual words of Jesus Would you contend with him that the very specific

Words that he used are unimportant If beginning has any meaning at all Then it must be referring to the creation

Week and not as old earthers claim 13 .787 billion years After creation

To say that the beginning can mean anything From 14 dozen hours To 13 .787

billion years Renders the word As meaningless It literally destroys language

Let's test the consistency If fellow brothers who deny Young earth creation would apply

The same level of skepticism they do To Genesis 1 and Exodus 20 And to the other parts of scripture

You might hear something like Well of course the plagues of Egypt Were just symbolic There's no way that an entire river turned to blood

God was just saying metaphorically That it's the blood of Jesus that saves you Besides There's no record of the

Nile turning to blood In Egyptian writings Or you might hear something like When we look at the ancient

Near Eastern writings Like the Sumerians There are many stories like that of Samson Who had superhuman strength

So the Bible's account of a man Whose strength relied on the length of his hair Is figurative in nature Samson, while interesting, is hyperbolic of a leader

Who probably existed but never pushed over a building With his hands Or maybe something like Jesus didn't call them a literal storm

If you look at the Greek You can reasonably surmise that Jesus Comforted the storm In the hearts of his disciples

The storm was just a picture of the trauma That his disciples felt in knowing that their teacher Would face persecution

Jesus' words calmed the storm Within his disciples But it's inconsistent

For YEC deniers to declare God could not have created the universe In six days in the recent past But it's totally possible

For a virgin to bear a child The text demonstrates That the earth, even though it is the

Oldest entity in the universe Is young And the Christians should not hold beliefs

That are demonstrably false We can look at the history of the church as well While the biblical timeline is the

Ultimate authority, is it worthwhile to see How Christians from the past have understood the text? Of course

If in my reading of the text I discover something That no one else in the history ever thought or saw

I should question my own interpretation To my knowledge No Christian before the 18th century is recorded

To have believed in what we would today Call an old earth To confirm The young earth consensus of the time

From the earliest Christians To just over a century ago, a span of about 1800 years

Let's look back at some of those who wrote Irenaeus Theophilus, Julianus Africanus Origen, Augustine, Johannes Kepler James Usher All of the reformers

Accepted a young earth Charles Lyell, though not a

Christian Wrote in the 1800s And his desire, knowing that Christianity was the dominant paradigm

He said in his writings He wished to free the science from Moses, which we know as Genesis In his biography of James Hutton Jack Rapcheck wrote in The Man Who Found Time The age of the earth is the wedge

That shattered the biblically rooted picture of earth And separated science from theology As Christians Which we both are

We should want to interpret scripture Consistently and rightly Consistently by offering the same level of scrutiny to passages

That conflict with modern sensibilities like Genesis As those passages deemed crucial to Christian orthodoxy like the miracles of Jesus We've established throughout that Throughout all of the church history before the dark times

Everyone understood that the earth was young Because of what the bible tells us And we have clearly established that the bible teaches

That the earth is young. The language demands it We do not want to hold teachings That are demonstrably false

Alright, well Thank you so much. I appreciate that Wonderful. Matt, I appreciate that Opening statement

Could you hear me when I gave you the One minute? Did that come through? I was trying not to just holler

But I wanted you to be able to hear me Alright Adam, I'm going to turn

It over to you now. We've got some people that are Interacting. I'm watching the Questions as we go and Starring some questions that I'm going to save for later

So Keep them coming We appreciate it. Alright It's your turn now. I'm going to turn it over to you

Adam Tonight's debate is about If the bible teaches

That the earth is young My opponent will have his work cut out for him Since the bible does not teach an age of the earth

So if you're a young earth creationist Here's my question for you Are you willing to change your mind If the bible does not teach an age of the earth

For tonight I am offering a biblical case As to why the bible does not teach an age of the earth

This debate is not about Adam Animal death, evolution Or even science This is about what the bible teaches

And if the bible teaches that there was a material Earth created Within six to ten thousand years ago

My opponent has the difficult task Of showing that the bible teaches an age of the earth And must show that the bible gives us

Specifics as to when the earth was Materially created If he cannot show when the earth was

Materially created He cannot declare how old it is For if one does not know

When something begins How can he know how old it is today The bible teaches that Genesis 1, 1 through 2

Are the preconditions for the six days of creation Those verses read like this In the beginning

God created the heavens and the earth And the earth was void and formless Darkness was over the surface of the deep

And the spirit of God was hovering over the waters Of the surface Over the surface of the waters

The first two verses are the preconditions Of the earth before day one of the six days of creation

If there is Earthly matter that pre -exists Day one of the six days

One cannot know The age of the earth The first day of creation begins in verse 3

When God says Let there be light The assertion that when God creates He creates from nothing during the six days of creation

Is a presupposition One should not simply read the text As referring to all matter coming into existence

Without solid biblical evidence Instead The six days of creation

All refer back to the first two verses Which is where the material Of the earth is mentioned

Let's take a closer look at the context Every good bible student Knows that when you read a passage

You must read it in context Let me ask you this question On what day

Did God create water? It is not during the six days of creation It is before day one

In the first two verses Notice Genesis 1 -1 does not say The first day

God created The heavens and the earth The following The following days of creation

Are responding and presuppose The first two verses Why does God separate light from darkness

On day one? That's because there was darkness on the earth In verse two Why does

God separate the waters In day two? He does so to give form And address verse two

Each day of the six days of creation Is calling back to Genesis 1 -2

The days of creation Are addressing the emptiness Formlessness and darkness

Of verse two The days are complete And accomplished When that task is over Second, the structure and patterns

Of Genesis 1 Even if one wants to assert that Genesis 1 is history One must consider

The way this history is being expressed And accept the way The message is being delivered

To ignore the way the text is written Is to miss out on how And what is being communicated

Consider this question Why isn't day two good? Each day of creation

God says is good Except for day two Is day two Less than the other days?

Was there something wrong With the second day of creation? Perhaps you never noticed Honestly, most don't

The answer is because Genesis 1 Uses the word good seven times The use of good seven times

Communicates to the reader That all of the days of creation are good This highlights The writer is intentional

With the structure and usage of words in Genesis 1 Other such notable word structures

Are the other occurrences That have symbolic or significant repetition For example

God said occurs ten times Let there be occurs ten times To make occurs ten times

According to the kinds Occurs ten times Most recognize ten As well as a significant number

Which often symbolizes completeness These are not the only ones But it's enough for the listener

To understand that the structure Of words in Genesis 1 Are intentionally written

Therefore one should consider the structure That Genesis 1 is written in When seeking to interpret what it says

There are several elements That are evident in days one through six This creates a tight grouping

That connects and helps us Understand what should be considered In the six days

First, each day begins with God said and ends with And there is evening and morning

Second, days one through three Match with days four through six

In that there was a creative act In each day With a double act In day three and day six

Making the days symmetrical Third, in a thematic way Days one through three

Match with days four through six Day one matches with day four Concerning the light and the darkness

In that matching with the sun, moon, and stars Day two matches with day five Where it separates the waters below And the waters above Creating an expanse in the heavens for the birds

And the waters for the sea creatures Then day three matches with day six God separates the waters from the land

And sent to the earth and produces plants So that the land, animals, and mankind May enjoy the land and the plants

All of this works on a model In which day one begins with verse three However, none of this works

In verses one and two If verses one and two are included In the six days of creation

It is the young earth creationist's assertion That Genesis 1 is largely about Material creation

If that is the case, then why is there So little material creation Happening? According to days one through three

There is hardly any material creation Happening at all On the first three days

Of the primary event that takes place Is the separating of things Not the material creation of them

God is clearly ordering the earth And arranging it But what is he separating?

He is separating the stuff From the first two verses The rest of Genesis 1

Presupposes That which was said in verse two They are the context

For the rest of the chapter Now the point here Is that verses one and two

Are not a part of the six days of creation But rather That they precede

The six days of creation They are the presupposition Which we must now begin with Now at the moment

We must turn to Hebrew Day one of the six days of creation Cannot consist of verses one and two

So the first day cannot be Verses one through five But rather it begins

With verse three Hebrew has something called a Vav Consecutive The Vav Consecutive Serves to create a sequential

Narrative flow in the Hebrew language Linking actions or events In the story It acts as a storytelling device

To propel the narrative forward And stringing together actions The first Vav Consecutive begins in verse three

With God said Let there be light And then it continues Throughout chapter one

All the way through the six days of creation This shows the connection Between days one through six

While entirely leaving out verses one and two This shows that even in Hebrew The first two verses were not included

In the first day Instead the reader is supposed to see That the first two verses are the initial setting

Which the reader is to understand The six days of creation Lastly if you're not convinced

I want to try and clear away Two presuppositions that are often brought to the table Many assume

That day one of the six days of creation Account must be the first Day of all time

Space, matter, and energy Often it is because of passages Such as Exodus 20

For in six days Yahweh made the heavens And the earth, the sea, and all that is in them And rested on the seventh day

Because By pointing out to Exodus 20

Because of what I've laid out Is correct Then God creates in six days

The heavens and the earth Using that which was Before day one

It is assumed but not proved That the first day of the six days Of creation was also the beginning

Of time and the first day of any creation The text of Genesis Is specific in saying that It is a creation account for mankind

This explains Why such things as the angels Are not mentioned There are other things that are likely

Created before the six days of creation For example Job 1 minute 38 says

Where were you when I laid the Foundations of the earth? Tell me if you Understand When the morning stars sang together

And all the sons of God shouted for joy Or who enclosed the sea doors When bursting forth

It went out From the womb When I made a cloud its garment And dense gloom its swaddling band

This is a creation passage Which speaks of the angels Shouting for joy at the creation

This passage as well presupposes That the angels were created Before this six day creation

And were in fact present to celebrate it If the angels were created before day one

Of the creation account Then the first day mentioned In Genesis 1 is not the absolute

Beginning of time There is one other presupposition And that has to do with creation

This is the notion of create or make One may appeal to Exodus and say that It declares that God made or created

Everything in six days since it uses the term Create or make Talking about materials such as water, earth

And the like. This is demonstrably false Since day one of the creation is not physical At all. On the first day

God is supposed to create light Which is then called day The day is simply not the day time

And the night time It has nothing to do with material creation But the time of day and night

Alright You both had a lot to say, had a lot to squeeze in there You did a great job. Thank you both very much

I do want to say this Watching the comments If your questions are not related to the debate

Please do not continue to vote the comments With things unrelated to the debate It's not helpful and it makes it difficult

To see what questions really revolve Around this question. So please Ask questions related to the debate

Don't argue with one another and don't post things That are irrelevant. That would be Unhelpful.

Alright So moving on now we're going to Do our five minute rebuttals Each man is going to get five minutes

And we're going to turn it back Over to Brother Matt Thanks Adam for your opening

A few things That he talked about Were some of the preconditions

That Genesis 1 .1 and 1 .2 Are actually

Some sort of time Before time And we may have to talk about that in the cross exam

But he's Proposed that there is some sort of Matter That can exist

Without time That God created all this matter But there was no time for it to exist

When? It's a strange belief And he may be able to clarify

Further as we go forward The concept Of something prior

To day one would fit well for Eternity but since The earth and the sea and everything

In them have to exist At a time and a place Then his

Proposal is Somewhat strange to say that There's some sort of time Mysterious He'll have to declare that a little further

Because when we look at the text itself Especially in Exodus 20 We see very clearly God says

In six days I made The heavens, the earth, the sea and all that is in them There is no

There had to be a day prior Or some sort of Mysterious time prior

To day one. God literally says And wrote with his own hand in stone I created the heavens

The earth, the sea and all that is in them in six days So It's a We'll let him talk about that a little more

He talked a little bit about The way that there is some Organizations, some patterns

In Genesis 1 And just because there's a pattern Doesn't necessarily mean that it wasn't

Truly a part of history As we look at the way God would Have expected his people to pass down His words when he revealed them

They would have been passed down through oral tradition Until it could have come from Writing So a memory technique of remembering

Certain patterns in the way that he Created makes perfect sense We wouldn't have

Let's see here if I've got We'll move on I should have looked a little harder on that And then the last thing he said was

Create and make Don't mean What we think

Create and make means This is kind of what I talked about earlier All Bible Translations Use the word create and to make

There's not an English translation anywhere That Talks about these words create

And make being used as some sort of Ordering or Drawing together from Pre -existent material

If that were If that was a possible combination Perhaps we would have found a Bible Translation that had that sort of Usage But when we see very clearly

Look at all, every English translation Is going to have create and make Which we understand to have a meaning

If we need to have someone Come in and tell us No no it means something else

Something that is not in the text itself It means something according to this presupposition

We have to be questionable About it especially since it hasn't Been found anywhere else in Christian history that someone said

The creation week was just a functional Ordering of things for some Pre -existing matter

That is a trendy Idea And we can maybe talk about that a little more

Those are the notes I had I'll turn it back over to Adam for his rebuttal

Alright thank you brother Well that gives you You came in right at four minutes Held it down good

Adam I'm going to turn it over to you For your five minute rebuttal Yes so this debate is about what

The Bible says History and these other matters And regardless of however the church

Has interpreted history Which I do think there are arguments That can be talked about that but in this case

The history is irrelevant The fact that many people may have Interpreted the Bible one way or another

Does not play a role in this debate The first six days of creation Does not entail

Therefore that it is the first Day of all time That is a presupposition that the reader

Is bringing to the text If you just ask yourself Well what was the first day

Well what do we see when we Read Genesis We see in the beginning God created

The heavens and the earth And then the earth is void and formless And the spirit of God hovers over the surface of the waters

Okay So then it says And God said The vast majority of people understand that the text

Is referring to And then God said As the first day

Therefore the text would even on a plain Reading state that There was something created prior to day one

Of the six days of creation And That yeah

There's an indeterminate amount of time And I'm just saying like if you want to read it Plainly and flatly

Most people understand that Now what does my partner have to say about Oh the idea of structures

Well he doesn't really say much at all He's like okay well structures don't mean Really that much The point of the structures that I'm pointing out

Is that the structures show A tightly knit six days of creation All of those six days

Go together And all of those six days Begin in verse three

The point is that from verse three To the end of the six days of creation That is how they are connected

But yet all of the patterns All of the structure They leave out the first two verses

If they leave out the first two verses Then how can each one of the days Be calling back to verse two

Verse two is constantly referenced That's what's going on With the separating of things

Even with the filling in of them So the point here is that My opponent here has completely missed

That this structure is essential To what's going on It shows that there is prior material

Before day one Of the six days of creation The six days of creation Are not the first things

Ever created of all time That's a presupposition that he brings to the table Second, I was very surprised

To see that my partner said That there is a Vav consecutive In verses one or two I would love for him to show me that As far as I can see in the

Hebrew The only Vav consecutive begins in verse three This is a Hebrew structure

That shows a sequence of events It begins in verse three And it goes throughout the six days of creation

Again, showing the tightly knit connection Of the six days of creation They only work together

In these days Third, my partner Asserts Mark 10 6

From the beginning of creation God made them male and female I'm not exactly sure what he's claiming here

Are you saying that on day one Adam and Eve were made? The fact that you're saying From the beginning of creation

Again, you're also presupposing That when it says the beginning of creation It's asserting that This must have been the beginning of time

The beginning of creation Refers to the six days of creation And in this case

I am saying that the six days of creation All presuppose That verses one and two

Existed prior To the first day of creation All of the six days of creation Call back to verse two

They all presuppose the creation Of matter So therefore

You have these issues Issue after issue In other words

When was water created? Are you saying that Water was created on day one

And that day one is completely different And does not fit in with the pattern Of the six days at all?

I'm not exactly sure I would have to see what my partner is asserting How do verses one and two fit into all of this?

Are you saying that all of creation Was created on day one? So it doesn't seem like you are

But it seems to me That you assume Number one That all of creation

Has to do with material matter And all of creation Must be only in these six days

Now regarding material matter You say that it's like Well we can't just look outside For order and these other sorts of things

But when you talk about let us make Let's look at Genesis 11 Verse 34 Let us make for ourselves

A name What about making for ourselves a name Has to do with material creation?

I would love to hear Because I think that if you look In your Bibles You will find many many examples

Where make is not referring to material creation At all Thank you

Perfect you guys are doing great Alright well we are now to The actual debate

And what do I mean by that? Well in the debate Opening statements are important Because they establish a baseline

And rebuttals are good because they give an opportunity For interaction But where the real debate happens

Is with what's about to go on What is about to go on is these men are going to Ask each other questions

And the way that it's going to work Is during the cross examination period When Matt is asking questions to Adam Matt is only allowed to ask questions to Adam And if Adam is asking questions to Matt He is only allowed to ask questions to Matt They are not going to begin to argue

They are simply going to ask questions And if Matt Asks a question and Adam Asks him a question back

I'm going to say can't do that That's my job as a moderator this is the hardest part of moderating Is moderating cross examination

So I've been sitting back Kind of sitting back drinking my lemonade But now I'm going to get focused in on my part

Hopefully these men are ready for their part And we're going to have a good time for the next 30 minutes or so Let me get 5 minutes pulled up On my device again

I apologize for the delay here And we are Ready And we're going to do it this way

We're going to allow Well I tell you what Is there a preference for who goes first Who asks questions first I know we didn't decide this beforehand

And if Matt you want to ask first I'm ready

I've got it ready here You're ready to go alright well you have 5 minutes And then as soon as 5 minutes are up I'm just going to say switch

And then Adam you can do your 5 minutes and we'll do that 3 times Sound good? Sounds good

Alright let's do it You are away To accommodate something other than the young earth view

I can think of dozens of changes That would need to be made to the bible Conversely If God did

Actually intend to communicate to us That the earth is young What changes to the text of scripture

Would need to be made I think if he maybe eliminated

The first few verses Of Genesis 1 So just taking verses away

If you eliminated Those first few verses Then you wouldn't have any sort of The young earth

So the entire The entire part of your Argument Is that Genesis 1 .1

And Genesis 1 .2 Prevent there from being a young earth Yes Well it prevents you from knowing how old the earth is

Let's see here Do you know what the current Hebrew calendar year is And what is significant about that date

No It's 5784 The years since creation

Let's see here I know that you hold to an ancient Near east Temple inauguration view

And that the bible is Agnostic to ages and times In our previous conversations

This is something we've talked about Why would the bible Then tell us

When Solomon's temple Was constructed I'm not entirely

Agnostic to the idea Of ages of temple construction Why would God give us

A very specific time When Solomon's temple was constructed To be honest

I actually think That Solomon's temple actually Gives a great example of The view that I'm talking about here

So in other words There's an inauguration period for Solomon's temple And there's an inauguration for the tabernacle

Which lasts seven days And we know that when you look at the temple It is very much focused on creation

The garden, trees The cherubim, all of those sorts of things Now When a person inaugurates a temple

Does They always are the ones Who also create it Nobody inaugurates a temple whom they did not create

And so therefore The idea that God is the one who creates all things And yet inaugurates his creation

On days one through six Resonates perfectly with Solomon's temple Right So he gave us a very clear time

When Solomon's temple was created And therefore it would make sense for you To hold your view

I guess we're not supposed to argue at this time Sorry Keith, strike one Keep the questions coming

Considering Mark 10 6 That God created mankind At the beginning of creation

How many years After the beginning was Seth born And how would you know Yeah yeah

So this question is completely irrelevant To this topic Because the creation of mankind Again, like the idea that it's like Okay, let's say that we just trace

Adam's lineage All the way to Christ and all the way till today Let's even say that we had A more accurate counter

We knew exactly how long it was That's irrelevant to the creation of the earth Especially it's irrelevant to all of the arguments

That I've presented Since I'm presenting that the idea is that the earth Materially existed prior to the creation of the first day

So I'm more than happy To talk about like Oh yeah yeah Let's say the genealogies were accurate

Which is why I'm not here debating you How long has man existed I'm here debating how long has the earth existed

And Keith, I hope you'll note That he did not answer that question Uh Mark 10 6

Very clearly tells us That God created mankind At the beginning of creation A link to Genesis 1 .1

The beginning of creation So we'll just note that he did not answer the question He brought his presuppositions into it

Um Let's see here How many days

Did it take for God to create the heavens The earth And everything

The heavens, the earth, the sea And everything in them And how do you know Six days, just as the bible says

Hey Alright we're making some progress Um We know that Adam was the first man

Created This is similar to the one I think we're gonna pass over that one as well Um If the bible is agnostic

To the age of the earth Why are these chronogenealogies With specific ages Mentioned in Genesis Okay this is your last question

Uh Matt Alright go ahead Adam Answer his question then you can start asking Can I just ask a defining question

Chronogeologies, are you talking about genealogies of mankind Chronogeneologies The genealogies

That were defined by time From Adam to Abraham They were given Specific time intervals

Of when they were born Yes, yeah so again For the topic of this debate

This question is completely irrelevant I mean it just has to do with Okay so you have a creation of mankind

And again I'm more than willing To even grant the idea You could talk about the creation of Adam In 6 ,000 to 10 ,000 years

And I think that would be Possible or probable even So if you want to talk about The creation of Adam in 6 ,000 to 10 ,000 years

We can be friends And go to the park and drink a coffee We'll be friends anyway And we can still drink coffee

We will Okay Well that's the end of your questions

Matt We gotta go now with Adam's five minutes Go ahead Adam Okay So what on your view

Do verses 1 and 2 mean of Genesis 1 I think it's pretty clear

That as we read through the text itself And take it all In its context

Genesis These verses were The Bible was written without verses

So Genesis is just a letter All the way through and the verses were added later But the first two verses that we see now

Are like the 30 ,000 foot view God is saying I'm the creator I've created all the heavens and the earth

And then we go into verse 3 Where he gets into The details, I'm going to go into a little further detail

On how I did it, we go to Genesis chapter 2 And we get some real detail on the creation Of mankind and marriage

Are verses 1 and 2 a summary statement? Seems to be Yeah Would you say that any creation

Actually occurs during verses 1 and 2? Like I said this is This is the overall

Summary statement of God creating the heavens And the earth This is where I started, I created everything

And now I'm going to tell you In more individual detail I'm going to make some separations as you talked about I'm going to separate

By days Show you how I did The creation of the heavens and the earth

Did verses 1 and 2 Actually create anything Or actually happen? Yes Of course, and that's what the

Bible says So verses 2 are a literal thing And it's not a summary statement

They are A summary of the full creation I could say I could say to my wife

Hey I made your lunch today And that would be the summary statement And then I can go and I can open up the box and I say

Well first I made your sandwich I got the bread out I put the lettuce and cheese on there

And then I put some pickled okra In there And then So the summary statement is yeah

I made your lunch today And so I Yes, of course it means That God created the heavens and the earth

As a summary statement I'm not going to take your time away But I will say if you put pickled okra on my sandwich

We can't be friends That's going to be contention

Don't worry Keith We don't have pickled okra on our side Shout out to my sister by the way

I apologize I couldn't help myself I'm sorry I won't take your time away I'm sorry Go ahead

So On the six days of creation

When is water created? Well according to Exodus 20

The heavens, the earth, the sea And all that is in them were created within those six days Probably on day one

I mean that would make sense That it would be on day one So why don't we see the creation of water

On day one In verses three through five Well God was able to tell us in Exodus When he made the seas

He made it within those six days Obviously it would have been on day one That he made them In the same way that he didn't tell us when he made barn owls

Specifically But that they were made on day five The specific of the owls themselves

Isn't it reading into the text to say that Water is created on day one When it doesn't say so in Genesis 1

No Because we know from Exodus This is a bit of inference we can learn Of taking all of scripture

As a young earth creationist I can take all of scripture And understand it better By taking the whole of scripture

Not just the few individual verses Verses one and verse two

So since we know that in Exodus 20 He created the waters Within those six days

Because that's what he said And that he divided the waters On day two

Then we know he had to have made it on day one When he's talking about When he's talking about Creating the waters

Isn't it then likely that he's referring to The separation of waters I can't ask you questions

I would have expected him to say separation Rather than Create In Exodus 20

He could have said And on the second day I separated the waters within That already pre -existed for Billions of years

But he didn't, he said I created the heavens, the earth, the sea And all that is in them In six days Shouldn't you interpret

Exodus 20 In light of Genesis 1 and not the other way around They are equally

Valid Neither has greater weight to the other But doesn't

Genesis 1 Set the tone for how Exodus 20 is to be understood It's not a conflict for The young earth creation

It might be a conflict for the ancient Near east temple inauguration view But it's not a conflict

For me as a young earth creationist I can read them and see that they're equally Valid and see how they correspond

Directly Alright, that was the last question from Adam We're switching back to Matt asking questions now

We are Starting your next five minutes Go ahead Alright, Adam can you

Describe to us a little bit about this Mysterious pre -time That was

Before time of The beginning Since day one is the beginning of time

What is this mysterious pre -time Genesis 1, nor anywhere else in the

Bible Says that day one of the six days Of creation is the beginning of time Therefore it is not

Radical or odd to say that there Could be time prior to this As I made a little

Bit of a case during my presentation The idea that the angels existed At the beginning of creation

Is logical and completely Consistent with the Bible Okay, let's see here

There are Let me say that one If I want to know how

Old the statue of liberty Is, is that a matter Of science or history?

I don't know I don't really know much about Scientific or I'm not a big science or history person

So I don't know what the proper method for Gaging the history Of the statue of liberty

I suppose there could be truth in both If I want to know

How old my great great grandfather Was when he died Would that be a matter of science

Or history? I mean

Again I don't know that much about Aging people or what not My understanding is

I guess you could know either I don't really know the capabilities Of science or history In this occasion, usually yes

We just ask our relatives History then If I want to know when

Genghis Khan Conquered Asia Can that question Be answered with science or history?

Best answered I guess Best answered by science History for sure And I would argue that all those are best answered

By historical documentation So why is it if we wanted to know the age of the earth We would discount the historical records of Scripture in favor of science

This question To me is simply kind of a A non -starter for this

Debate, again like I'm not here proposing a scientific answer Our debate is on what does the bible teach

And I am claiming The bible teaches that the earth Is, the age of the earth is

Completely agnostic It doesn't tell me when the age of the earth is It doesn't tell me when it begins So therefore

I cannot calculate How old it is today Why do you think it is that No English translator

Ever used The A &E definitions that you gave us For Create and make

Which you said was the functional ordering In bible translations So I didn't really make a lot of claims

Concerning ancient near eastern interpretation And stuff, I made a few biblical claims Which I gave examples for And that would be very simple

It would say what is day one Like on day one of the six days of creation When God says let there be light

He says the light is day Day is not a material object It's a frame of time

Day and night Okay so what is Particularly unique About that interpretation

I also gave the example of Genesis 11 .4 In which

I explained that it says Let us make a name for ourselves What about that has to do with material creation

Using the same words for make and create It's not that make and create

Can't mean I think the case you were trying to make Was that When we read these words make and create

They're always that It's never functional ordering So why wouldn't a Why wouldn't the

English translators have used that word As ordering Pre -existing material

As you claimed In Genesis 1 .1 and 1 .2 You said it had existed for And you didn't give a time period

You said that the material Was always around But that the

Creation and making of it That he talked about through the rest of scripture That he was just functionally ordering it

But no Bible translator Ever uses ordering Or making it functional It always says create and make

Why do you think that is This will be his last question Adam go ahead Answer and then you

I don't think anyone Needs any special glasses To read the Bible in Genesis 1 So for example

The first three days there isn't really Much being made God separated the waters above from the waters below He separated the water from the land

What about that sounds like material creation Nothing There's nothing in that that's really talking about Oh wait a minute

I'm seeing this material creation Again even day one God separates the light from the darkness

That sounds like he's separating things And my question ultimately Is going to be

How about I just move right into my first question Keith is that alright That's podcasting right there

Man that's a great segue So my first question is What does

God create On day one The earth and water Okay Is that all

Space and time When he separates The light from the darkness When he separates the light and the darkness

What is he separating You may have to Give me a little further

When you say he's separating light and darkness Here here Is that material

That sounds like A scientific question Light can behave as both a wave and a particle What is

The light in day one The light source What is it

The text is very clear what it is What is it I can read it for you if you like Go for it

I'm not supposed to It says that the light is the day

And the darkness is the night How is that material I think what

You may have the presupposition That I think That That light had to have a material

Creation God made

The earth and the water on day one As we know from exodus And the way that it was separated

On day two so it had to have been made on day one So the light Would have been essentially

God energizing his universe Creating the imbuing His creation with light

And he separated The light and the darkness The text says The light is the day

And the night and the darkness is the night How is day Time and night time

Material I don't think I don't think that Alright we can move on Validity We can move on Alright does day one of the creation

Mean it is the beginning Of all time space matter and energy This is what we would understand

From the text yes God gave us the summary view In the beginning I created everything

And then this is how I did it On each day Do you agree Do you agree that the six days of creation

Presuppose versus one and two Being real And existing I can only go by what the text says

And the text says that In the beginning he created the heavens and the earth And then when

I look at Exodus 20 that heavens and the earth Were created within The six day time frame

It is irrefutable That the beginning the heavens And the earth were created within those six

Days because that's what the Bible Says doesn't matter What the presuppositions either one of us

Are bringing the Bible says The heavens and the earth were created In days one through six

And that's that's what we have to Go by we have to go by what the text Says doesn't your view

That include the angels And that's irrelevant to this debate It's the

Entirely relevant Okay, but I'm asking About What about the creation of all things

So if Like your Job 38 Passage I mean that was it that was a pretty good Younger patches it was bold of you to bring

A younger bring my side into it As if it was something that you The foundations of the earth we know

The foundations of the earth were worth With on day one so if the Angels were there singing and singing their

Praises in heaven for the foundations Of the earth they're not they're not necessarily Bound by space time

They might have been created before but on day one For the for time They were the the age of the

Earth would have been within the Six days and that's what we're arguing that The days of creation

Is it your View that time Can exist Or that time can

Be non -existent Even during a creative act This is your last question on this round Could you clarify that I'm not sure that I understand fully can

God create something outside of time Not materially

Materially it would have to fit within space Time according to the what The universe that we know he can

Create he has created heaven heaven is not Bound by space time But it's unreachable

From us materially But material Stuff has to have a time element

To it the fourth dimension Alright so gentlemen we are now

Moving into Our final round Of cross -examination where Matt gets

Five more minutes and Adam gets five more Minutes you guys have asked some great questions We've got a lot of people interacting

In the comments so Take a deep breath guys Because this is the last five

Minutes for each of you and it Begins right now I am going to go ahead and ask these

Questions again even though Maybe we'll get some more Progress on it we know from First Corinthians 15 45 that Adam Was the first man

And we know from Mark 10 6 That mankind was created At the beginning of creation

So how many years After the beginning of creation was Shem Born I would

I would look in the Bible To see whatever that number Is I don't have it off the top of my head but I'd be more than happy to call

You Matt and ask you how many years It's right here The answers are all

Right here Adam Open book test no that's 15 58 and if And the same thing if we know that Adam Was the first man that was created

And from Mark 10 6 we know That mankind was created at the beginning Of creation How old was

Creation when Abraham Was born I mean again 150 years these these questions

You can all file in but if What I'm arguing is true in Genesis 1 And 2 these questions are irrelevant because They are appealing to the six days of creation

That that God has chosen To lay out for us so I completely Agree with that where we disagree

Is that verses 1 and 2 Show that there is pre -existing Matter especially

The earth the waters the land That pre -exists day one And we know from well

I can't argue sorry that's two Strikes Keith you got to keep note of these Okay We know there are 1440

Minutes in a day a yawn And we agree that our Closing statements will be 5 1 ,440th of a day

Are we to understand that day to be A young earth day Or by some other hermeneutic because I've got

A young earth time frame that would be five minutes And I've got one that would last three million 470 ,000 22 years

That was kind of a joke so I'll turn it over to All right

Okay, so where is the Vod consecutive in verses 1 and 2 So I Got my notes.

I don't speak Hebrew Hebrew I got my notes from Online Okay All right, so All right, well, you know what we

Won't dwell on that too much I guess So Okay, so Do you see any correlation

Between Do you Do you

Do you accept the Structures that I've laid out for Genesis 1 No, I do not believe

That material That definitely the earth And the heavens and the water were not created

Out before day one because the Bible says they weren't Yeah, but do you accept the structures

Do you accept the structures That how day one Lines up with the rest of the day.

So in other words You have day one two and three and they match With days four five and six Again, this is not really a problem for Young earth oral traditions

God could have made framework Easy to remember Before writing so Whether it is or not.

I don't have a Strong opinion. Is that a yes? I don't have a strong opinion I don't

I don't think it's as clear -cut as you may think That it's perfectly framework There are there are some incongruities

To that Hypothesis So If If the first two verses

Are not real Or if they're not literal Or are you saying that Are you saying the first two verses are material

And that they should be there and understood Throughout the rest of the creation They're important because that's what

God told us They're the They're the summary I made your lunch, this is how

I made it Can you understand That day one Is the creation of the waters

And all of these notions without Exodus 20 I don't see why not

It is further clarification And it's repeated in Exodus 31 17 So if we didn't get it the first time

When he wrote it in stone We can see it in Exodus 31 But how is that not reading

Exodus 20 into Genesis 1 As opposed to exegeting Exodus 1 They are

Of equal weight Some people like to think That the red letters of a

Bible Carry greater weight than the black letters And this is not true God's revelation is consistent and clear throughout

So it could be that before Moses wrote Genesis All they had was

Genesis to go by But they would never have thought Well that was a billion years ago Because from the text

It's pretty clear that Adam was created on day 6 And then you can read his

Genealogy and add up all the years And see that the earth is very young Do you believe that More recent texts

In the Bible can reinterpret With new meaning older texts No But Most would have written those at the same time

I mean Genesis and Exodus That's the law The Pentateuch would have been Presented to the people at the same time

Should you understand the text chronologically There is a pretty good case

For chronology throughout We see consecutive Sequential days We see and then and then

Very historical writings throughout all of Genesis As if it were an account of history So and then and then

Makes sense to me And listen all of this goes to Jesus All of this is building

The foundation for the perfect The royal lineage of Jesus That's what we're ultimately trying to get to So yes

I think chronology is very important So when Exodus 20 Speaks of creation Should we not go back and see what it's referring to in Genesis Yes It's exegetically

We definitely see the patterns Corresponding one to one

So therefore Do you see all of the 26 days of creation referring back To Genesis verses 1 and 2

We are Seeing When God says in the beginning The first verse that you keep trying to Segment and separate

There's no separation there When we look at the text itself In the beginning

God created the heavens and the earth And then in Exodus 20 God created the heavens and the earth

There's a definite correspondence There That Limits them to be within those 6 days

There's no mysterious Pre -time or pre -billions of years I know you keep trying to push us that direction

But the text doesn't allow it That's why we have to go By what it says I know you're trying to bring that Presupposition in but it's not there

This is the last question Adam You have one last question Do you agree that days 1 through 6

All call back to The void, formlessness, and darkness In verse 2

Day 1 is That's a part of day 1 Is that a yes?

You do believe they all call back to that? No, they do not Only day 1 is

Only day 1 talks about the Formlessness and void Alright gentlemen that is

A complete 30 minutes Of cross -examination Each of you got 5 minutes to ask questions

And 5 minutes to answer questions Now we are going to move To the fun part

Which is the interacting With the audience We have 17 questions that have come in You're each going to have

For the question that is Asked to you, you're going to have About a minute to answer the question

And then your opponent Has a 30 second Opportunity to respond

And then we'll move on We don't want to make these Too long, if you need more than a little

Bit of a minute, that's fine But we will Try to keep these right around a minute

A piece, this will put us right at the time frame We want to stay at Alright, the first question

Is for Adam And I can put it on the screen here

It says, if the tree of life That would grant eternal life If the earth is billions of years

Old, how do you reconcile The existence of this tree with the current Under of human lifespan

Order I'm thinking of Or length of human lifespan The tree of life would grant eternal life If the earth is billions of years old

I mean I guess I don't find this to be in conflict Because if we're to talk about Let's just say, again,

I'll take a page Out of Matt's book Let's say that man is created 6 to 10 thousand Years ago, and likewise, the tree of life

Is also created in a similar time span So if the earth is billions of years old That doesn't say anything about the tree of life

Being created billions of years ago Okay, so to clarify

You would say the garden could be young But the earth is old? Um, again

My position here is actually to be agnostic Concerning the age of the earth I'm actually not here espousing that the earth

Is billions of years old I'm here claiming that the bible does not say How old the earth is

It does not give a beginning of the earth As far as material creation goes Therefore, one cannot count

To how old the earth is Since we have no beginning Okay, and I'm not trying to Engage my part of the debate

I just wanted to clarify that for the audience Sure Matt, did you want to follow up on that About the tree of life, or are you going to move on to the next question?

I don't know anything about that question But it's strange that Adam would say We have no beginning When the beginning is repeated several times

I don't think there's anything about that question That would be against young earth Alright Well, the next question

Is for you Mr. Matt, this is for ApolloJedi It says

What is the context of Exodus 2011? Do you think the context makes referencing Exodus 20 in this debate

Problematic? The context Is God Giving the laws

To Moses So it's definitely not poetic It is a matter of God giving

Moses I'm sorry Giving Moses direct information

These are my expectations My expectations are for God's people To work for six days and rest on one day

In the exact same way That I worked for six days and rested on one day So it's not problematic for me

It may be problematic for the other views But it's definitely Right in line with what

I would expect As I read through the whole of Scripture Alright Adam, you want to say anything about that question?

Yeah, so This points out that there is a pattern That the point of Exodus 20 is that it's giving us The pattern that God made in creation

That is not that we're actually following Exactly what God did If we were doing exactly what

God did During the six days of creation Nobody would go to work the next week However, all of us go to work the following week

Why? Because we're not actually following The literal pattern that God laid out Because God doesn't continue creation

Day after day after day, week after week after week He creates one time And then comes his rest, and that's it

Okay Alright, so the next question then Is for Adam It's a

Short question Is Mark 10 6 wrong? I think this is a yes or no question

Why don't I say it like this, why is it not wrong? Well Of course it's completely correct

Mark 10 6 is absolutely correct But the main thing that I'm saying here Is that it is a presupposition to say that The six days of creation are the creation

Of all things The other thing is that when you read Mark 10 6 I want to know, like, are you saying that Adam and Eve are created on day one?

It says the beginning of creation So I don't understand how this is supposed To be a gotcha question when

Mark 10 6 Is like, oh at the beginning of creation God made Adam and Eve, he made You know, all these sorts of things

And it's like, okay, well obviously It wasn't the beginning Instead it's just using a general

Span Referring to Genesis, it's just referring to Like, hey, in Genesis, in the beginning When God made

Adam and Eve That's what happened He's talking about them as the primordial pair The primary ones

So I don't see this as a problem for the Young Earth discussion Okay All right,

Matt, do you want to follow up on that? Yeah, it's definitely not a problem for Young Earth It's a problem for everybody else when they try to bring in Well, the beginning is not really the beginning

And they try to bring in these mysterious definitions That could be this part of the The beginning is obviously

The first week Jesus was there So he can refer to the beginning week Uh, you know, it was 4 ,000 years from when he said it

So I don't have time to go into my full analogy I've got a racing analogy If you think about the time when a sprinter Runs a hundred meter race

He can't start out of the starting blocks For one -tenth of a second Any time before one -tenth of a second

That he breaks out of the blocks Is considered a fault Well, one -tenth of a second

Is definitely the beginning of the race And from the time Jesus said back to creation Is 2 ,000 times

Smaller than that one -tenth Of a second So definitely when

Jesus was referring To the beginning of creation It definitely includes that first week So it's silly to say that It had to have been created the first picosecond

Of the creation It is the first week We can trust Jesus' words And what he is doing

Is he's tying back the creation of mankind To the beginning of creation Just like he said, the heavens, the earth, the sea

And all that is in them in six days This is so hard for me To understand why people don't get this

That's when the runner starts the race When did the runner start training for the race? Alright Well Bring your presuppositions in Alright, so we're going back to Matt now

Matt, referencing the prequels Was not a good start You said, oh wait, that's not a good question

I'm just kidding That's right When you called him the Padawan The Padawan Alright, I'll take that one out

I did say the dark In my opening, come on Ben Hey Ben, good to see you buddy

Here's a real question for Matt This time It doesn't say it's for you, but I'm assuming It's for you, and I have to on a few of these

Because some of them didn't put names on It says, if suffering, disease, and death are a result of sin Which I know is the

Position of the young earth How would you explain Suffering, infection, disease, cancer And death in the fossil record

That is presumably before Adam and Eve Presumed to have occurred before Adam and Eve You know,

Adam did a good segue Earlier to go and write Into the questions and answer, I'm going to segue a little bit Into this idea that we may be

Talking about this, Adam and I, in the future Sometime We have another debate, we're going to argue

About this topic About whether or not There was death before the fall Animal death

Yeah, so a little preview for an upcoming debate But the answer to the question

As was asked God created His creation Very good, we see as Adam mentioned

Seven times we see good, good, good, good And the seventh time it was very good So before mankind sinned

There was no death or suffering For the nefesh animals, the air breathing Soulish animals that we see

So when we find That we are facing these things today The infection and cancer and disease

All these terrible things in the fossil record We can look, again, to scripture This is our principium

We look in Romans chapter 8 For the creation was Subjected to frustration

Not by its own choice, but by the will Of the one who subjected it in the hope That the creation itself will be liberated

From its bondage to decay And brought into the glorious freedom Of the children of God We know that the whole creation has been groaning

As in the pains of childbirth Right up until this present time So when God finished His creation, it was very good

But after the fall, everything in creation Faced difficulties

Infection The bondage to corruption This disease and cancer That the fossil record was created

In this global worldwide flood we read about In Genesis 7 -9 So it makes perfect sense

If we start with scripture And look at the things we're dealing with today It perfectly aligns with what scripture says

Okay Do you want to add any thought, Adam? Yeah, yeah, number one Watch me and Matt's debate

We will be debating animal death Does the Bible teach there could be animal death Prior to sin

I will be arguing that the answer is yes I will be taking the affirmative And Matt will be taking the opposition

I think it is incredibly relevant To talk about the notion of There is a distinct difference between humans and animals Man is created in God's image

The animals are not Therefore there is a significant difference concerning The relationship between the two

The idea is that when a human is killed There is to be significant Serious consequences

There is not to be the same kinds of consequences For the death of animals So that's the short answer

No, that's wonderful And anxious to hear you guys debate that other topic Very good So let us now move to Some of these questions do not have names

But I'm trying to get to the ones that do first So this is for Matt The question is

And this is probably just a quick one It says Matt, do you know that Augustine believed

In instantaneous creation Not creationism As a moderner sees it

And I guess the follow up question Of that Because it's a yes or no Does that matter to you

Joe, thank you for your question That's a great question And we had a questioner earlier who was picking on me

But I'm going to go and direct you to his website Macrophage Strategy has about a 30 minute video

On Augustine It's great The reason Augustine believed in instantaneous creation Was probably, likely

Due to his worldview He was influenced by the modern paradigm Of his day

Which was Ptolemaism Or Geocentrism And so there was no way he could visualize Days actually existing

Prior to the creation of the heavenly luminaries So He Proposed an instantaneous creation

There's more to it than that I think Ben does a great job expounding on it But It brings my point further into focus

That we should not be influenced by the modern Paradigms of our age Augustine had problems with his biblical interpretation

Because of the modern paradigm of his age The modern paradigm of our age Is deep time and evolution

And some of these other trendy things We need not let those things influence Our biblical interpretation

Thank you Matt Adam I want to just piggyback off of what Matt just said And that's that we should not allow our presuppositions

To overcome us too much And that's my encouragement for the Young Earth Creationists And I'm just appealing to the

Bible I want you to go back And let's look at the Bible Yes, it's my understanding that Augustine largely believed in this notion

And again Rather he did or he didn't What matters is the Bible So it depends on what the text says

It doesn't matter what Augustine said Or Thomas Aquinas Or fill in the blank with your favorite theologian

You know So even Keith Fosk So you just want to You want to pay attention

To the Bible The Bible is what matters the most Just remember you're messing with Superior theology over here

So just be careful Alright Question for Adam What is your interpretation

Of Romans 1 20 With respect to the age of the Earth I'm assuming you'll have to look that one up real quick A little

I mean I know the general passage But I don't think I've heard it often referenced In this case

Me either For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes His eternal power and divine nature

Have been clearly seen Being understood through what has been made Yeah, I mean Yes, I don't think that it holds any respect

Concerning the age of the Earth God is great His invisible power His eternal

Yeah Nature is invisible attributes and divine nature Are all clearly seen through creation

So I don't know how that is supposed to I think I can interpret what he's asking

Now that I've read the verse I think he's saying If there is nothing there to witness

If there's nothing there to Interpret what's around it Because it says the visible attributes are clearly perceived

In the things that have been made Who's the perceiver, right So if man's not there in the beginning If man's not there

Then does that relate to the end That's my only way I understand the question If there's no one there to see it

Then How can that be true Prior to the creation of man

Yeah, so Interpreted the way that you've expressed I mean

Like There was no one there to see it Like all of us agree with that Like there's no man created until day six

So it's not like anyone can see the creation itself The only creation that we're supposed to see

Is that which is finished And it's just the notion that I could be wrong too I mean,

I'm just saying that's the only way I can see that being relevant Yeah Yeah, it was a better try

Trying to explain it and stuff But the primary point of the verse is to say that We can see it now

When we as humans look at it We can see it now And again, I just don't think that The fact that humans are created

You know, on the sixth day That doesn't play a role in the age of the earth Especially with the arguments that I put forward

Alright, Matt You want to say anything about that or move right on Well, I think it kind of goes back to the Stretching of this beginning

You know, when we're trying to stretch this beginning Over billions and billions of years

Or some unknown time quality Beginning loses its Meaning It doesn't mean anything

Unless it is tied to that First creation week Then it makes sense

And this verse fits very nicely into that The first week, the perceivers Were created on day six

And now they know that there is At the beginning of creation That the earth glorifies

God Everything glorifies God Gotcha Alright, Matt How could days one through three

Have been real days Since the sun wasn't created Until day four? That's a pretty common

Young earth question So, let them have it And this is not

Specific to Adam's view But most of the old earthers They don't realize this is actually a problem for them

Because Days one through three A day is not defined by The light source

That's like saying that there could not have been time Before there were watches Because the sun is the time -keeping piece

As the earth rotates on its axis The sun is our reference point That we see what a day and a night is

But the sun is not needed For the earth to rotate on its axis To have a regular day The reason it's a problem for old earthers is

They presume there were Nine point something billion Time units

Before the earth -sun combination By which we measure what a year is So how do they determine what a year is

Prior to the sun -earth combo Emerging from the noxious clouds Of the solar system

They have a problem Determining what a year is Okay Not a problem for young earthers on day four

Go ahead For this question, of course, answers could range To be much, much longer

But I think the primary purpose of Genesis 1 Is that it is referring to things related to mankind That's why it doesn't mention the angels

It's not supposed to be focused in on the angels It's focused in on mankind It's focused on things from mankind's perspective

For example, night and day Those are only relative to mankind's perspective What is night and day

In a galactic Intercosmetic Scale Nothing There is no night and day

It's only night and day in reference to mankind As the sun moves Or as the earth moves around the sun

But By and large This is sort of a funny question

And I just think that I don't know It doesn't really play a bearing again On the creation of the earth

All right This question is for Adam What are your views

On fossils And the dates assigned to them Did the dinosaurs live among people

Yeah So I'm really sorry to disappoint anybody But I'm just not a science person

That's really the short answer I don't really have any research on behind it I'm not really familiar with any of the research

Concerning fossils And the dates there So I'm not here defending a strong Billions of years view

I'm here defending that the bible doesn't teach the earth is young And it doesn't teach the earth is old The bible is agnostic on the topic

If you want to ask me a biblical question I'll be a little better at answering those But I'm sorry I just don't really have a strong opinion

Concerning fossils Gotcha Matt did you want to tell them

Well I have some good news because this answer Can be answered by the bible We know in Genesis Seven through nine that there was a worldwide

Flood covered all the earth All the high mountains under the entire Heavens So we would expect to find as a

Christian As a creationist I would expect to find billions of dead things Buried in layers

Of sedimentary rock all over the earth Including on mountaintops And this is something we definitely expect to find

So It was telling With the line of questioning

I asked Adam earlier Was this a science question Or a history question His default to anything in the past is what's a science question

And I want to propose That all these questions in the past Are answered by history questions

And so the bible is not a science textbook It deals with history And if we want to know questions about age

And history The best source is a historical document You just did your best

Ken Ham impression I just want you to know that Billions of dead things laid down in rock layers all over the earth I ain't letting that go

I think you lose points for that one Wait a minute He's probably going to want a cut of the money that you make

Of this piece You may have to filter that out When I did my denominational video

At the ark I was changing And a friend of mine

Sent the video to him that day I was afraid I was going to get in trouble For filming on his property

Especially the Methodist guy But he laughed and thought it was funny So I got away with it

I don't agree with everything Ken Ham says but I love Ken Ham I pray for him I think he loves the

Lord I'm the same way I think we can disagree on some things and still be appreciative of what he does Alright So We got just a few more

We're not going to get to every single question Because of time But I want to get to the ones that seem to be most relevant

To the things that you gentlemen have said Alright So we left off Who was the last person

Adam Matt gets the next question Alright Apollo Jedi Do you believe that if God created everything in one day

As he could have easily done Would we debate today If it was one day

Or would other sides say One day is figuratively A billion years

This seems sort of like an esoteric question But we'll see if you get Anything out of that The old what if question

I'm thankful we have The All of scripture there for us

If God created everything In one day As he could have easily done

Would we debate today If it was one day You know

I don't know how to answer that question We would go to scripture We would let scripture decide for us

The way we do with the The question that we have today And I'd look at Exodus 20

To see if it said And in one day I created all the heavens the earth the sea And all that is in them And if that's what

Exodus said Then that's what we would argue We want to argue what scripture says And that's what I've done today

Argue what scripture says Adam I'm with Matt on this one

Sorry Wally But unfortunately Especially for this debate Neither one of us are here standing on And purely arguing

Science We're arguing what the Bible says And that's where be our reference point So concerning how old we would say

Oh one day or this It would depend on the exegesis of the text It would depend on what the Bible says And that's what we'd be arguing over Neither one of us are primarily arguing

Science is how we determine the age of the earth So I think that you would have to ask Somebody more like Hugh Ross Or somebody else who is more focused in On what science says about the age of the earth

Alright I'm going to give Adam your last question And then we have one question I want you both to answer

Because it's very important But it's a single question Doesn't have a person Alright so Adam question

Isn't it a possibility for God to supernaturally Create the heavens and the earth The waters without taking into consideration time

Could be an instant right No I don't think this is possible

So I think that every moment of creation When anything happens God creates

It must begin time So in other words the notion is God creates the angels

That had to happen in time I don't believe that there is any sort of notion In which God could have created

There could have been a created act In which that being existed eternally To say that it was created outside of time

Is almost as if to say that like It always existed There's a lot that can be said about time

And that's a much deeper subject But the short answer is no There is no empty time in which God could have

Created the earth in some sort of Empty time and then time only begins Later So are you saying that the moment

Something is created time begins Yes Okay because that's another question that was there

Was when does time When did God create time You would say as soon as the first thing was created time began Time has to begin at the first Act of creation at a minimum

Okay that answers two questions Alright Matt you want to opine

I don't really have anything to say About that one Like Adam said we go with what God's word has said

I don't have a strong feeling on The bounds of time I mean try to think of a definition of time

Without using time It's very hard to define it So it's probably something

That can be discussed by people Much smarter than me Okay last question

I want you both To answer this I don't care who goes first But this is probably the most

Important question of the night In regard to someone's Watching this and they're concerned about their soul

And the question is Am I in sin If I don't believe in a young earth

So I think I want to ask Matt to go first Because you're the one arguing for young earth Let me go first I mentioned this in my opening

Definitely We are saved By grace through faith

In Christ alone That is our only hope If salvation relied on me

Being able to believe a certain Amount of correct things I would utterly fail and would be dead

In my sins So no believing in a young earth Is not a salvation issue

It is important because we want to interpret The bible correctly But praise God I don't have to Believe all the right things

It is by grace through faith in Christ alone Thank you Matt Adam Yeah so of course

I certainly couldn't hold to This view that it would be a sin Not to believe in a young earth Because I'm here proposing that the bible doesn't

And so yeah I think That there are lots of things Regarding theology

That we all get wrong And that is not the major problem The major thing for all of us as Christians And believers is to follow

Jesus To follow Jesus and we interpret And try and understand scripture As best as possible

We grow in the knowledge and faith of Jesus Christ But I think what is so much more important is that Often is how we're

Following Jesus and how our character Is reflecting him And so if you're not following Jesus then

You should because Not only will you find Life and love and happiness

And joy and peace But it's the only truth That will never let you down Amen Alright my friends well that ends

The audience Question portion that we are going To do and so now

We are going to move to our Five minute closing statement So the five minute closing

Statement will begin with Adam Because we're going to give Matt the final Word since he had the burden of proof

Tonight so let us Turn our attention To Adam here you are my friend

Tonight's Debate is about What does the bible say Now my proponent

My opponent has proposed that Of course all of the days of Creation the six days of creation

Are the absolute beginning of time However he doesn't have any way For accounting for the angels

Being created prior he doesn't have Any account for the angels being There at the beginning of creation

He doesn't have any real Account for many of the arguments that I've Laid forward and what I want to propose is that The arguments that I've put forward

Are a much more straight forward hermeneutic And biblical study way What do

I mean by that I mean that In verses one and two It is the setting that the rest

Of the six days of creation are calling Back to It presupposes That it is not one of the days of the six days

Of creation Now why would we think that Because there is a structure

To Genesis 1 There are structures and patterns There are usages of words

Over and over again And so it is very important That we pay attention to those structures

So that we might be able To see and understand What is the text emphasizing

And what is it telling us Each of the days Calls back to verse two It is answering the question

How are we going to deal with the void Formlessness and darkness from verse two And so as a result

We should understand that It presupposes its existence And these notions that it's like Well we should read

Exodus 20 Exodus 20 is what is going to Explain to me Genesis 1

But this is Backwards hermeneutics If I read Exodus 20 and it just has a summary

Statement about creation I then have to go back to Genesis 1 And look closely

What is Genesis 1 saying And then interpret Exodus 20 By Genesis 1

Not the other way around We are not going to use newer passages

To reinterpret old passages Now My opponent and I have a disagreement about the

Vav Consecutive but I encourage anybody To go and look up in the Hebrew I know it might be a little bit technical

The first Vav Consecutive begins in verse three With And God said let there be light

That is where you find the first Vav Consecutive And this follows throughout The six days of creation

Again linking and showing The consecutive line Of actions that are taking place

By God from Verse three through the end of the six days This shows us again

What the author has in mind These are the six days of creation Now My partner is also asserted that There must be material

Creation going on here I think this is actually even more odd Given that what he has actually said

Is that oh verses one and two Are the first day of creation And therefore it is

All of that stuff The water, the darkness, all of that stuff Is already created by the time

You read verse three Again this is completely Out of sync with all of the rest

Of the patterns, it's completely out of sync With every proposal that I made So therefore if you see patterns

In Genesis, if you see the connection Between days one through three And four through six, if you can tell

That it's like oh wait, you've got all of these Connections, you'll notice that those connections Only take place if you begin

Day one in verse three Instead of verse one My partner also has

Asserted that it's like okay well Yeah the separation and all of these things Days one, two, three

Those all must be physical creation And he says like Well when it says create, what do you think

It means? Why didn't the translators Retranslate this In some sort of ancient

Near eastern way What I'm saying is you don't have to go anywhere Outside of your bible, it's very clear

That throughout scripture, scripture Uses make, create In ways that are not meant to be

Material, and I think That when you look at the first three days of creation What do you see? The separation of light

And darkness, the separation of the waters From the waters above Separation of the waters from the land

What about those Three explanations Rings to you as material creation I don't see it

And then yes, on the end of day three He talks about Let the earth bring forth vegetation and plants

Again, this matches perfectly With the pattern that I've lined out That says that there's an act of creation

On the first three days, and a double act In day three Follows exactly with days four, five, and six

Which there's a double act On day six Again, these are all parallel And match

Only on my view But they seem rather out of sync and disjointed On my opponent's view The point here is that The earth

Is in existence Concerning its material being And all of the days presuppose that Therefore You cannot conclude that the earth is young But instead

You must conclude that we don't know When the earth is After all, the first act of creation

Must be the beginning of time And if there is any matter That preexists the first day of creation

Therefore we don't know How old the earth is Subsequently He presupposes

The idea that there is Creation, and that The only way that we can talk about this

Is through the six days of creation And nothing else All right, and Matt, before you get going

I just want to say one thing to the commenters We had a person blasting in here With a bunch of stuff,

I had to ban him And I accidentally put G10 In time out So G10, if you're there,

I can't untime out you So I just want to apologize publicly That was a mistake, I was trying to do the other guy

So I apologize But all right, my friend Mr. Matt Your five minutes begins

Right now Thank you,

Keith For hosting this debate You are an above average timekeeper And thank you,

Adam, for a brotherly conversation On this important topic Why is it important? I'm a Christian, Adam is a

Christian I love God's word, Adam loves God's word It is a matter Both of authority

And meaning Dear Christians, if words have meaning If language can communicate ideas

And since God has revealed history in his word Then we must Hold to a young earth creation

In today's culture, redefining Words to accommodate formerly Abnormal views has become pervasive

And acceptable Abortion is healthcare, trespassing is an armed Insurrection, sexual perversity

Is normalized by asserting That love is love Anything certain parties don't

Like is now racism A woman is whatever the person feels like In their mind Weird is now being described

As the nuclear family These words used to have meaning that Have been given totally new definitions

And sadly this kind of thinking has leaked Into the church when the foundations of scripture Are compromised

People are now saying that a day can be redefined As billions of years Good has been redefined in John Walton's book

As a functional ordering God's creation of the universe In Genesis 1 has been redefined

As a temple inauguration It might be that But there's no

Clear description in scripture That would demand that And as we saw tonight, the beginning

Has been redefined as Some mysterious eon of time In which virtually all of the supposed billions

Of years of history have been hidden from us As shown Tonight, the plain reading of the bible

In its context, what some would call The young earth creation understanding Of God's revelation in the bible is the correct

Understanding Young earth creation has been clearly understood Since Moses penned those words

And in Christendom until the dark times Until it became fashionable To reinterpret the meanings of words

To accommodate modern sensibilities If you need a guru Like John Walton or Hugh Ross To give new definitions to words

That no one in Christian history has ever Believed Simply to accommodate modern scientific

Or cultural paradigms Take caution, brothers As Paul warned the

Colossians See to it that no one takes you captive By philosophy and empty deceit According to human tradition

According to the elemental spirits of the world And not according to Christ If you start with human traditions of evolution

Or ancient near east hermeneutics It will never lead you to Christ And that is not their purpose

But the purpose of God's word Is to lead us to Jesus Just as the Bereans were called

Honorable for searching the scriptures To see if what Paul said was true We too should test

Ideas by what is demonstrably true In God's word The Bible tells us that God created the universe

Very good Which is completely absent of evil, harm, and destruction But sin

Affected all of creation And right there in the garden after the fall God promised a redeemer

To heal that bondage to corruption Against which we all groan today But because the

Bible can be trusted About God's revelation of the past We can trust his revelation

About the future As we eagerly await the redemption of our bodies And the end of harm and destruction

When the knowledge of the Lord Fills the earth as the waters cover the sea As Christians We do not want to have views of demonstrably false things

And it is demonstrably false That the Bible is agnostic To the age of the earth Because the text of the

Bible itself Says that the earth is young Thank you Well gentlemen,

I don't have an applause button But if I did, I would hit it right now Because you both did a fantastic job

And you were both very respectful And godly to one another Demonstrating your differences

And at the same time Upholding brotherly love While doing so So I want to applaud you both

And thank you both for coming on the show today I know this is going to be a great benefit to my audience And I know we've had plenty of people

Interacting in the comments And I guess some of these guys Are maybe people that you know I've seen a few of them seem like Maybe they watch your channel

But if they don't, let me go ahead And give you the opportunity here as we close To tell people how they can find you

And what you do online And we'll close out with that Alright, Matt Yes, you can find me

Adam, go ahead Yeah, you can find me At CuriousChristianity On YouTube, you'll see my squirrel

Power squirrel And you can also find me on Twitter I think it's Curie What is it?

Underscore Christian And Matt You can find me at ApolloJedi .com

On Twitter Or X, sorry Elon It is ApolloJedi With an underscore

I got it here, ApolloJedi underscore Someone is squatting on the ApolloJedi Without the underscore But ApolloJedi .com

Without the underscore For my blog posts Thank you Keith for having us Adam, thank you for the debate

Yes, thank you so much Absolutely, and again

Thank you audience If you guys weren't out there We wouldn't have anybody to do this for So this is a good thing

Always nice to know that people are out there watching Thank you for the comments Thank you too gentlemen for your study and your time

And thank God For giving us this opportunity to be together So thank you all