Judaism’s Influence on the Hebrew Israelites

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July 20, 2016

Abu Khamr (Truth After Knowledge) joins guest host Vocab Malone. They delve into the mysterious origins of the “Hebrew Israelite” movement, demonstrating its founders were heavily influenced by Rabbinical Judaism. “Faithful to God” makes a cameo to give insight on Jonah, “Lashawan Quadash” and British Israelism.

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00:32: Welcome ladies and gentlemen to The Dividing Line. As you can probably tell
00:37: I am NOT Dr. James White. This is a presentation of Alpha Omega Ministries because Rich Pierce is here but that doesn't necessarily mean they agree with everything
00:47: I say or how I do it. Somebody said the last time I was on the DL I brought swag to the
00:54: DL. I don't know if that's a good or bad thing. I didn't get any complaints from Dr. White so I can handle that.
01:00: Got a couple other complaints but look a apologetics multi -generational enterprise here ladies and gentlemen.
01:07: Now last time I was with you on The Dividing Line we did something that I really don't think has ever been done before and we really got into some of the detailed history of the group known as the
01:20: Hebrew Israelites. Really it's multiple groups under one religious name kind of grouped together because this religious group has really one main thesis in common that is those folks who are on the
01:32: Western Hemisphere these days who came over here in some way as a product of the transatlantic slave trade are actually the lost tribes of Israel.
01:40: That's the main thesis. They believe that the Bible, history and archaeology proves this etc etc.
01:46: They don't agree on much else but we've been interacting with some of them talking about the exegetical claims at points talking about the historical claims at points and here we're just doing sort of an expose because I've felt like when
02:00: I speak to a Hebrew Israelite which is a growing mission field we want to do these shows to get more and more people involved in the enterprise of reaching out in love to their neighbors.
02:08: That's what this is all about guys. When I speak to them though a lot of times they seem to believe this doctrine has always been there they just kind of thought of it on their own.
02:19: It's clear that the Bible teaches it. Sometimes there's a real lack of awareness of their own historical development and we want to educate as best we can as well as offer what
02:29: I hope is some helpful analysis. I do that by beginning to read from a book called Black Judaism story of an
02:36: American movement by James Landing. You've heard a story time with uncle or grandpa Jimmy.
02:41: This story time vocab ladies and gentlemen page 368. Early Sunday morning
02:47: June 30th 1974 a young black man arrived by bus in Atlanta Georgia and walked to the
02:53: Ebenezer Baptist Church pastored by Dr. Martin Daddy Luther King senior the father of the civil rights leader who had been slain in Memphis on April 4th 1968.
03:05: The young man attired in a tan suit and tie attracted little notice as he attended Sunday school at Ebenezer a church noted for its visitors.
03:12: At the regular church service Mrs. Alberta W King Dr.
03:18: King's wife was serving as guest organist since the normal choir was not singing in favor of older choir members who had moved from Atlanta and returned to for a reunion.
03:27: Mrs. King had been the chief organist for years but had resigned several years earlier due to age. She was 69.
03:33: The Reverend King was not preaching that day having invited Reverend Calvin Morrison a to Mrs. Coretta Scott King to preach that day.
03:39: The young man in a tan suit sat in the amen corner. The choir had just finished singing the Lord's Prayer and Mrs.
03:45: King had begun several bars on the organ in preparation for the next hymn when suddenly the young man in the tan suit leaped from his seat shouted something that sounded like I am taking over I am taking over he brandished a pistol and each hand began firing randomly.
03:59: After threatening a visiting choir member Mrs. Lillian Watkins his guns jammed and he was wrestled to the floor by members of the congregation amidst great confusion.
04:06: Deacon Edward Boykin lay dead. Mrs. Jimmy Mitchell was wounded and Mrs. King lay slumped over the organ.
04:14: She died an hour later in Grady Hospital. The young man in the tan suit was identified as 23 year old
04:20: Marcus Wayne Chennault Jr. of Dayton Ohio. He had withdrawn from classes at Ohio State where he was if you read the whole paragraph from all classes the previous
04:30: December that maintained his room in Columbus that's where I'm from several blocks from the University. Now I'm going to skim through some of this and here's the interesting part why
04:39: I'm reading this. He says the real target was Dr. King that's Martin's father but he fired those who are closest to him and Reverend King inquired who the enemy was and the man
04:52: Chennault replied Christians and apparently this man had a death list that included
04:58: Ralph Abernathy president of the SCLC and it did this is key at his arrangement listen to what he said to the judge quote
05:08: I am a Hebrew and was sent here on a mission quote and it's partially accomplished all right now this this goes on and the reason though B is because of something he was involved called the troop that operated in Youngstown Cleveland Cincinnati and again where I'm from Columbus and the troop's purpose was to kill black ministers and civil rights leaders who members of the group felt had deceived and falsely led black people so theology matters folks the reason why we're gonna dip into some of this history is not because we're saying everyone is gonna do this we're not saying everyone would do this or thinks that they should do this it's affiliated with it however it is important to inform you that the person who killed
05:55: Martin Luther King jr.'s mother was someone who called himself a Hebrew Israelite in his theology or what his theological convictions is what drove him to do this now this is one statement along many things this is back in 74 we're gonna go even back further with today's guests on the dividing line
06:14: Abu what's up Abu formerly known as Abu from truth after knowledge calling from New York City what a man how you doing very good very good good afternoon good afternoon yes this is a book on whether it's good all right real quick before we get people before we get started how can people find you online what do you want people to know about you real quick before you start whisking away with the questions about the history well there's nothing much
06:39: I mean I can be found on Twitter and YouTube just under a book on what a bu kh amr I'm just someone who's been interested in the subject of the
06:48: Israelites for a few years have some information on them I've focused specifically on the
06:55: UP care wing as they call it you know those groups that came out of one West okay part of my focus of course
07:00: I focus on other things but yeah and that's sort of the more prominent rising faction of the Hebrew Israelites there's groups out of Chicago such as Israel of God who are different even though they have the same basic thesis but they're not what you might call you
07:14: PK errs or one Westers most of the you see online are though however well let's get back on the streets let's go back let's start with a man named
07:27: Abba Bivens who is Abba Bivens and why is he important when we do this historical research into the foundation and beginnings of the
07:39: Hebrew Israelites well the all the groups that descend from one
07:44: West they can see themselves as descending doctrinally from Abba Bivens as they call him he went by other names apparently he went by the name of ever been you'll be in the
07:53: Benjamin but he was the founder of a school that predated one
07:59: West and it was his students that started the the school at one West that's given rise to all these
08:05: UP care factions and splinter groups it's called the Israelite school of Torah where about is it when was it started and where did they come from well the the school apparently was not too far away it was on Fifth Avenue where exactly
08:23: I myself don't know of speaking to a number of people they always say oh it was right around the corner it might have been a little bit further away than that but apparently it was right on Fifth Avenue it was not at one
08:32: West which is an important detail to a certain degree and he himself was a former member of the commandment keepers and this becomes relevant to a number of subjects it becomes relevant to the fact that they're still vestiges of what was brought from the atmosphere that the commandment keepers existed within and how that affects their to this day how they approach the some of these groups approach them some old -school books on the commandment keepers here's a book called the black
08:59: Jews of Harlem by Howard Brotz this is an old -school book and it really focuses on rabbi
09:05: Matthew there and and here's another one that that gets into them as well and some other things but uh the heritage seekers it also gets into been on me really but he's covered in there another book called black
09:21: Zion and so there there is some history when you start talking about the commandment keepers they've been on some historians and scholars radar for a minute and I'll give my understanding and you can correct it but the commandment keepers began when rabbi
09:39: Matthew failed to convince Marcus Garvey to sort of make Judaism the kind of official religion of the movement there and he started something in Harlem and the group was called the commandment keepers and he began teaching some of these doctrines and so I'm talking about all the way back in 1919 is when he first organized the commandment keepers congregation a living
10:07: God and it was incorporated in 1930 and then relocated to Brooklyn and you can read about some of the things that they believe and some of the their evolution as well there's a little bit on him and it's important to notice but Abba Bivens came out of the commandment keepers congregation why is that significant
10:28: Abu well it's significant in terms of first showing the some of the trend that the first off the rabbinic trends and also showing the differences that how these groups have evolved from what
10:40: Abba Bivens was there's some elements that he brought with them that still affect the UP cares to this day there's other elements that they've clearly diverged from because honestly and frankly they're continuously evolving and not to be disrespectful but making it up as they go along in many respects right so why is it important that the genesis of this starts with a heavy influence from rabbinic
11:03: Judaism why is that significant to us today well first and foremost just for a historical note because the different UP care groups really push away from rabbinic
11:14: Judaism they really try and distinguish themselves from mainstream Judaism but mainstream Judaism had a huge effect on those groups that environment not just the commandment keepers but also groups like the
11:24: Moorish Zion temple of Mordecai Herman and stuff like that and that's the environment that Abba Bivens came up in the man they now call
11:31: Abba Bivens. I think you showed me a picture you sent me a picture of them right the Moorish Zionist temple can we show that picture
11:37: Rich that was one of the last pictures I showed you since you mentioned it you have it might as well show it now okay so there it is let's let's talk about this picture for a second
11:47: Abu tell me about this picture and what's significant about it well first off the way they're dressed and if anyone sees there's one picture of Abba Bivens out there and he's going to be dressed similar and also if you find pictures of Wentworth Matthews you're gonna see this similar they're wearing for example the
12:02: Sephardic style they call it a mitzvah hold on when you say Sephardic could you quickly define it and and also define the
12:10: Jewish and the Hebraic rabbinical Judaism technical terms you could if you could real quick as you go through this okay because people get analogous it's something analogous to a turban that although now that's very misleading if you say turban but there's a word you snap it and some
12:25: Sephardic Jews to this day especially rabbis especially rabbis with authority will wear that and by the way
12:31: Sephardic represent if you say within the different groups within mainstream Judaism within rabbinic
12:36: Judaism you have these different I won't say factions but these different streams that honestly are defined by region and language so Ashkenazis are really associated with Eastern Europe Germany and also with Yiddish you know and that basically that is a natural product of the diaspora meaning it's really being spread across the globe we recognize that it's sort of a natural outflow of that and so Rich just zoomed in on the picture to kind of give a close -up of Matthew there yes there's the gentleman in the midsnippet there's disagreement
13:15: I believe that's Mordecai Herman oh they know that that is real Newman okay I'm sorry that's
13:20: Mordecai Herman though that's who I believe that is but yeah sorry if you look in you in black the book you read a black
13:26: Judaism they claim that the man the older looking gentleman is actually Israel Newman I I believe it's actually
13:32: Mordecai Herman but nonetheless the school at the more Zion temple was run by Mordecai Herman and Israel Ben Newman question but what what is the significance of the address of the
13:45: Moorish Zionist temple of the Moorish Jews what's the significance of their address well this is where we get into a little bit of speculation but it the address is 127
13:59: West 137 I'm not mistaken it should be right there in the window it is it is not underneath the window so there was a family called
14:08: Bivens that lived in June going to old phone books going right back into the 40s
14:13: I think we got a picture of that too that was that other second the last picture I sent you rich if you could throw that real quick I have a picture family one of the there's not a lot of people named
14:24: Bivens in Harlem at that time right but one of the families and I can't prove that this is the family of Abba Bivens but it does seem significant there's a family named
14:32: Bivens that lives right next door at 125 West 125 West 137
14:37: Street right next door so it and also it should be noted that while people throw around the name Bivens with the
14:43: E at the end some people spell it with an I so which is the way it's spelled in this phone book may or may not be related so this is speculation we're not claiming this for sure okay now what's gonna happen is some
14:53: Hebrews are like to get here to say they were just speculating the whole time at least they admitted it that what we're saying is we're trying to figure out some places where we know there's influence and other places where it's not as certain and all we're saying because this hasn't been fully disclosed to the public and so we're having to kind of do the work and track it down because there's a lot of sort of things shrouded in mystery and I think part of it is because of the embarrassment the truth that the beginning of this movement really was heavily influenced by rabbinical rabbinic
15:21: Judaism now one other question you mentioned something about the writing I think in the window of the picture can you could we go back to that picture significant you can see there's there's horizontal writing and there's a vertical writing the horizontal writing underneath the star backwards unfortunately maybe because they put the glass in backwards right because they intended to read it from inside the apartment or something but what it reads in Hebrew it says
15:45: Talmud Torah why is that why is that important why is that important the word Talmud is something straight from rabbinic literature it doesn't have to be a reference to what we say what we call properly now the
15:56: Talmud but nonetheless at the concept straight out of rabbinic Judaism they were teaching something Talmudic and you can also see on the sign there's it says in English something like Morris Zion temple or something like that right next to it they have not
16:08: Hebrew but Yiddish they write the word temple and the word Morris using the Yiddish approach to the
16:14: Hebrew characters I have another question to ask you now we don't call white people
16:19: Edomites we don't call them red men are there Edomites though in this picture in the background there's quote -unquote apparently
16:27: Edomites although I imagine while some people will say yes they are others will say no we don't know their lineage but yeah it seems that there's clearly
16:35: I think what had happened was this is what it becomes even if the family that lives next door isn't
16:41: Bivens family right nonetheless or even if that Bivens family is not related to him nonetheless we do know that Bivens was in the commanding keepers and we also know that there was some interaction between the commanding keepers and this
16:53: Morris Zion temple they had some interaction they sometimes did joint things although by the time of like roughly the 40s specifically
17:01: Mordecai Herman was gone I believe even as early as the 30s Wentworth Matthews was saying that he was he was he had passed on but nonetheless this sort of establishes that there were a number of groups in Harlem right that they were people they were started by men who grew up in somewhat
17:18: Christian homes yes we're trying to move away from that and embrace Judaism and they were doing that by taking a number of elements from rabbinic
17:25: Judaism some mostly from Ashkenazi streams because that's what you find in New York right but also trying to lean toward something
17:32: Sephardic hence the headgear and stuff like that because they viewed it it seems at the time is a more pure strand now you've got to go back to the early 1900s to understand what's going on here there's a couple significant historical factors that I want to talk about one after the
17:50: Civil War and Reconstruction and all that you have black migration from the south into other places throughout the
17:57: US especially Chicago I mean that's a big one that's extremely important and you also have folks going into Kansas just all types of movement lots of movement and you have new encounters between black folks and Jews that generally speaking did not happen sort of an antebellum of slavery as you could imagine why not only that but you have an influx of Jewish migrants into certain places such as Harlem Lower East Side all this is going on and you have people who live and work there
18:29: Jews who are trying to make their way migrants interacting with black Americans in the 1900s 1920s all that so this it is very significant that all this movement we're talking about we talk about the beginnings and the genesis and the origin of the
18:44: Hebrew Israelite movement that it really is Harlem centered that's important because the
18:49: Lower East Side is well let me stop there I don't want to take it all away explain why that is significant
18:55: I don't want people to miss the point that really a lot of this it doesn't make it not true necessarily we're not actually saying that we're just saying a lot of this is very explainable by historical and sociological factors at the time and we just want people to see this this didn't drop out of heaven it wasn't just clear to people you know there's a real paper trail and sometimes photographic trail what's the significance of Harlem and in Jewish migrants and all that when we talk about this
19:18: Abu well as a number of people from the West Indies but also as you mentioned a lot of people from the south we're moving into Harlem right there was at the at the dawn of the 20th century there was also a significant
19:29: Jewish community there mainly Ashkenazi and that Jewish community was connected with a much larger
19:34: Jewish community at the other end of the island of Manhattan in what's now called the Lower East Side where I'm actually from and so both
19:42: Mordecai Herman went with Matthew in their writings that are still extant they talked about going down into the
19:48: Lower East Side and interacting with the Jews there and and basically getting things from them getting ideas getting clothing even you know and and the
19:55: Torah scrolls and just about everything they used right and that sort of had an influence on them and these men began to shed their
20:02: Christian past in an attempt to adopt something more Israelite and really what they were adopting was rabbinic
20:07: Judaism and and Abba Bivens was very much part of that environment that's the environment he's coming up now
20:13: I would like to play a clip of Abba Bivens teaching here that you provided me with this is a pretty rare clip the audio quality is gonna be super low do you have an idea on the date of this in general
20:26: I mean I guess it can't be later than the 70s right I yeah I would yes
20:32: I don't know the date but being that he was able to record it I assume it's later in his in his career and also he makes an appeal to the
20:38: New Testament which admittedly some of these other groups did as well so I assume it's also later in his time as well that's significant we're gonna talk about this after the pretty soon here at the end of this clip he's gonna make an appeal to Romans and that's significant because that shows sort of moving away from full orb rabbinic
20:56: Judaism I mean this is already an amalgamation but this shows some significant development and Abu was going to talk about that here's the clip rich try to do with what you can into the hands of the
21:37: Gentiles given into the hands of the Gentiles given into the hands of the
21:43: Gentiles he is the higher power in the world as we should have made his power give me
21:49: Romans 13 chapter 1 let's see so he just said
21:57: Romans and it will tell you here that every soul hath abated on the cross let every soul be subject let every soul be subject unto the higher power and the
22:14: Cretaceous people is the higher power of the world today alright so Abu I'm gonna let you break down the significance of what was just taught there by Abba Bivens honestly
22:27: I couldn't hear it but I did listen to it before well let me tell hold on let me fill everybody in he's basically you hear the beginning of the idea of white man red man and then he says in this current time the time of the
22:42: Gentiles they've been given power and then he goes to Romans to say that we must be subject to the governing authorities who he's saying at this time are the white folks and that's why it's important to talk about this actually because I began with this discussion of the man who assassinated
22:57: Dr. King's mom but here in this clip for example you hear him saying under the dispensation of the
23:04: Gentiles we're supposed to listen to the governing authorities and so most
23:09: Israelites don't agree that we're supposed to be like nationalistic violent revolutionaries at this side of the kingdom just to be clear it's not a similar doctrine to jihad or anything
23:23: I'm making that point there that's what he was talking about there but at the end he goes to Romans so why is that significant
23:29: Abu that Abba Bivens goes to Romans well because he came out of an environment that was rejecting the
23:36: New Testament but because the environment that they preached in which was primarily Harlem but also other parts of New York and also
23:43: New Jersey was preaching to the African American community largely they're dealing with a lot of people who are
23:48: Christians and so even though he came from an environment of former Christians who rejected the New Testament that sort of environment was still trying to grapple with the
23:56: New Testament so you see the beginning process of this precursor to the UPKers starting to get back into the
24:03: New Testament again begrudgingly accepting parts of it for the sake of argument in this case he's using he's using
24:10: Romans to his advantage in other cases as I understand that they began to get into Matthew 5 into of course
24:17: Revelation 1 and so on so that they would have these tools to deal with the many Christians that they dealt with alright now
24:24: Abba Bivens self -styled himself as a boxer you know and he would often knock cats out there's a famous story that's been relayed to me several times about he was preaching on a step ladder just like you see in the
24:41: Malcolm X movie for example real old school style a dude's heckling him Abba Bivens drops off the ladder clocks a dude knocks him out well that kind of brawler mentality continues on Abba Bivens is an older man he's in Newark New Jersey a place that's not so nice you know sorry to folks in Newark but if you know anyone from there you know what
25:04: I'm talking about so he's there in Newark and gets in a squabble with some
25:10: Muslims not sure if they're orthodox or 5 % or I'm sorry nation of Islam but he gets stabbed it appears at least he received some injuries tries to drive himself to the hospital but he dies the year is maybe 1970 no the year's not really known for sure but what a it can't be any later than what year
25:34: I don't assume it's later than 72 the latest I see people get is when his two students and one of those students son start a new school the latest
25:44: I've seen it dated is to 73 that's what we need to talk about before 73 everything we've done so far is really just laying the groundwork
25:51: Abba Bivens is now out of the picture but Abou tell me about the three students because here's where we're getting rubber meeting road tell me about the three students so from his environment that was mostly to knock only but apparently with some leaning towards the
26:08: New Testament his school upon his death his school apparently collapsed the school was not at one west and two of his students a guy named
26:15: Moshe and a guy named Yaakov and the guy Yaakov's son went on to start a new school bringing some of his teachings but also developing them and changing them and they started a new school at one west 125th street which would evolve ultimately into the
26:31: Israelite school of universal practical knowledge or Israelite church of universal practical knowledge and then split into the many groups that exist today the men were
26:39: Yaakov Moshe and Eriah yes that's what it was you have the guy
26:48: Moshe and Yaakov and then Yaakov's son Aryeh or Aryeh some people have claimed his name was and then later on Aryeh developed a new form of Hebrew Lashon Kodash which they claim is ancient and so they redid their names
27:03: Moshe became Mashah Yaakov became Yaakov and Aryeh Aryeh became
27:08: Aryah and we talked about this Mashah was later said to be King David reincarnated and that created a lot of problems and he started a school called the house of David and a lot of the groups that we're going to talk about or that we talked about last time came out of the house of David which originally came out of UPK it does get a little confusing but what's the significance of these three and what are some important developments that happened in the 70s and 80s with this new school the big one for me is the language that they created that's one that I'm most fascinated by what they create the
27:43: Lashon Kodash the interesting thing is that itself is an attempt it's a repudiation of rabbinic
27:50: Judaism it's part of their attempt to pry themselves away from the Jewish community that they were involved in but the concept itself is taken from rabbinic
28:02: Judaism like interestingly enough so everyone just stop right there I want everyone to understand so they believe this is like a pure tongue of Hebrew and my basic understanding of how they did it was basically guessing or speculating at the vocalizations of paleo
28:16: Hebrew because nobody would really know it's not like we haven't heard it speculating at what they were vocalization yeah there's these rumors about you know an angel or something gave it to them and this and that but it's clear he's been developing it but what's so interesting is the phrase itself for the language is not found in the
28:36: Hebrew Bible Abu where is it found? it's found in rabbinic literature Lashon Kodash is their pronunciation of a
28:43: Hebrew phrase Lashon Kodesh now that phrase doesn't appear anywhere in the Hebrew Bible some ubiquitous will say oh no that's not true it appears in Zephaniah or something like that but they'll say specifically
28:56: I believe Zephaniah 3 .9 which King James makes a reference to a pure language they'll say well that's a reference to Lashon Kodash of course the phrase doesn't appear in the
29:06: Hebrew text there that phrase Kodesh comes from rabbinic Judaism it's all over rabbinic
29:12: Judaism a number of commentaries Rashi and Nachmanides they use this phrase to refer to the
29:17: Hebrew language and it gets even more this is kind of a presuppositional argument in my take away now
29:24: I'm not saying you sign off on this Abu but here's the way I look at it people are saying this is the pure Hebrew tongue basically given to us by God in the modern era to restore the
29:35: Israelite nation and it gets us away from the tradition of the Talmudist which is a name they derisively call folks who follow modern rabbinic style
29:45: Judaism however following their own presupposition that that's what they're trying to do they betray themselves because the name of the language invented itself comes from Talmudic literature not from the
30:00: Hebrew Bible exactly and here's where it gets even more interesting when the
30:06: Hebrew language was being brought back as a spoken language by a number of pioneers the most famous one is
30:12: Eliezer Ben Yehuda when he started doing that what happened was the pioneers in bringing back
30:17: Hebrew would meet with the Ashkenazi community who had a very heavily Yiddish form of Hebrew and they would tell them that the pronunciations were wrong now most of the
30:27: Ashkenazis accepted that and they embraced the form of Hebrew that was largely based on the work of people like Eliezer Ben Yehuda but some communities especially really really ultra religious ultra orthodox communities most
30:39: Ashkenazis rejected it and the interesting thing is there's still these communities that hold on to their
30:45: Yiddish pronunciations like for example the Satmar community which is in Williamsburg and upstate New York and they call their version of Hebrew Lashon Kodesh which is the
30:56: Yiddish version of Lashon Kodesh that's their pronunciation and the thing is I don't think this is a coincidence
31:03: Arya came out of a rabbinic environment and I believe he got that idea of Lashon Kodesh from his rabbinic environment
31:12: Now I'm going to show this picture here in a second but before I do let's talk about something that's going to make some folks mad the man known as Nate that leads up the
31:25: I .U .Y .C the Hebrew Israelite camp called Israel United in Christ they're the ones who wear the black and gold with the little things on the bottom there, you know, fringes what does he call this language he has a derisive name for it, what's he call it?
31:43: Yes, the former Nathaniel, he refers to it as the Ebonic Hebrew, at least he did in the past and this is significant because a number of groups attack him for not using the name that's popular amongst the
31:54: U .P. care groups, generally not using the name that was used at One West and the real reason why he's skeptical about getting into that is because he knows that it's based on a language that's made up, he knows that Ariah made the language up, and so he's trying to distance himself from that language, he hasn't done it fully because it still has an influence even on his group, there's a number of even high -ranking members that still have
32:19: Lasharon Kodesh names, but he himself is trying to distance himself from it and on a number of occasions he's very disdainfully referred to it as the
32:27: Ebonic Hebrew. Or I've heard it shortened as Hebonics So Now we're not saying this, this is
32:35: Nate you know, from what we can gather and Nate, from what we can understand has always had his ideas and is innovative in certain ways and has always had sort of a clear cut vision about what he thinks this thing should be and what it should become.
32:51: Now You can even see the sign of this in his name, the fact that he used to be, when he was with One West in the House of David, he was called
32:56: Nathanael which Nathanael is their way of saying Nathaniel in so -called Lasharon Kodesh.
33:02: And for him to drop Nathanael or even Nathanael and just be Nathanael that, even that was him winking that he doesn't really believe in Lasharon Kodesh that he knows it's made up.
33:13: Right. And then you have GOCC which does a totally different pronunciation when it comes to what they view as the name of God and so and honestly,
33:24: I think it's probably going to get worse you know, you're going to see more of this and people with alternate vocalizations, the further you get away from the
33:31: One West being so influential. Oh, absolutely. You see that, for example a number of people who aren't connected to camps, the
33:38: One West used to refer to Israel as Yashar Allah but now you see groups, they'll drop the final
33:44: A and say Yashar Allah. That's like a popular thing on the internet. And these are people that are slowly tweaking the
33:49: Lasharon Kodesh. Right. You know? Alright, so we do know one important thing that happens because we don't really know much about what happens in the 70s and 80s but we do know that the three men
33:59: Oh, wait, wait, wait. Before I talk about this, we need to show this picture before we jump into the seven heads.
34:04: Can you show let's start with the group picture. Can I switch up the flow on you, Rich? This dude's awesome.
34:11: But tell us what's in this picture and why we should be looking at this. Abu. So is this the group photo?
34:18: Yes, it is. Okay, in this photo you have a young boy there. That's Aria at about 13 years old.
34:25: This picture, the hard copy of it is at 1941 Madison to this day.
34:31: Within the confines of the ICGJC. That's the group that has a man who leads it, who claims that he is the sort of embodiment of the
34:42: Holy Spirit and Aria is still with his group to this day, who now we're showing a picture of a young Aria.
34:49: Exactly. They claim that this was his bar mitzvah. Now, I have my doubts about that because an interesting thing about it is two men, one of them being
34:57: Abu Bivin. Abu Bivin is the man right next to Aria. Can we show a close -up of Abu Bivin there? He's with the older man with the beard there,
35:05: Rich. Okay, I've got a closer -up of Abu Bivin. He's holding a lulah in his hand.
35:11: He's holding a palm. This seems to obviously actually be during Sukkot, during what they call
35:16: Hoshana Rabbah, which is I think the seventh day of Sukkot. So that's what I think this is. But nonetheless, the fact that the various Yom Kippur groups accept that the story that this was
35:27: Aria's bar mitzvah, that in itself shows that they understand that back in Abu Bivin's day, they were having bar mitzvahs, which is again a rabbinic concept.
35:37: Right. And not only that, when you look at the way Abu Bivin is dressed, it's the same thing. He's wearing the prayer shawl, he's got the
35:43: Sephardic mitzvah set on his head, he's clearly much like the picture that we had of Mordecai Herman, or if it's
35:51: Israel Ben -Numan, and also the pictures that are many of them online of Wentworth Matthews. They all sort of dress like this. And they take this where they're still in this very rabbinic stage.
36:00: And this picture is relevant because it shows Aria's quasi -rabbinic path. So it shows that him using a phrase for Hebrew that's also used by rabbinic
36:11: Judaism and is not found in the Bible, that's not a coincidence. That's because he had a rabbinic background.
36:16: He comes from an environment which was once much closer with mainstream Judaism. Now I'm going to play a clip here,
36:23: Abu, of Tahar, the modern -day leader of GMS, the Great Millstone Israelites. They take their name from Revelation 18, where he talks about running into Aria, who he calls
36:33: I think Chief High Priest, in the modern era. And he says some important things that we're going to come back to about Aria's importance.
36:43: So listen to Tahar and what he has to say here about their run -into meeting.
36:49: I sped it up a little bit, but here is the clip of Tahar talking about running to an older Aria, who may be 70 or 74,
36:56: I think he says in the clip. Here I go. I felt like I saw an actual angel of the Lord. And even though he's dealing with that madness with the tazedakia...
37:09: Real quick, so right there he's saying, dealing with that madness with tazedakia, he's referring to the man who calls himself the
37:16: Comforter, the God -sent Comforter, who again says he's the Incarnation or Manifestation of the
37:21: Holy Spirit. And Aria, believe it or not, is actually with that group. But then Tahar talks about running into him. What's up,
37:27: Rich? Yeah, don't go full -screen on that. Oh, okay. I'll bring it up. Gotcha. Okay, I'm going to bring it back down when
37:32: I do it. Well, let me play this clip again here. Um, you know in my heart, um,
37:38: I truly believe he's a man of the Lord because all these, um, all these, uh, scriptures that all the people that came from One West, the main scriptural man was
37:50: Aria. Even though we had went a little beyond that and went into other scriptures that he never really went into, but he was the scripture man.
37:59: He was the man that told you when the High Holy Days came in. He was the man to go to, to learn the
38:04: Hebrew, to learn... We wouldn't be able to do the Sabbath service, like the Passover Sabbath service. We did that based upon what
38:11: High Priest Aria taught us, alright? Alright, what's the significance of what
38:16: Tahar just said there, Abu? He mentioned the Hebrew, if I'm not mistaken. Yes, he did. He said he's the man we would go to to learn the
38:23: Hebrew. The version of Hebrew that all these groups use, with the exception of, uh, Israel United in Christ, they're sort of putting it at a distance, but most of these groups,
38:31: GMS, the ICGJC, also the GOCC, basically they're all still using the made -up version of Hebrew that he created.
38:40: And that's... Tahar is one of the people that admits that. He says, you know, basically, you wouldn't have the
38:45: Hebrew if it wasn't for Aria. And then, of course, also a lot of their breakdowns come from him, which he also admits. Admittedly, they've continued to change things since then.
38:52: Just a minute. When we say breakdown, that's a common phrase that is used to describe what might be the standardized interpretation from a
39:04: Hebrew -Israelite perspective of a verse or a passage. They'll say the breakdown of it.
39:11: And you mentioned one on the last program is a chapter in Revelation that the breakdown had been changed.
39:17: I can't remember what it was off the top of my head. But just so everyone... Revelation 9. Revelation 9, yes. So just so everyone understands, when we say breakdown, it means sort of the standard exegetical narrative that they're getting out of a passage.
39:29: And a lot of these... A lot of them are esoteric interpretations come from Aria. And you'll see a common thing that they do, especially
39:37: GMS, even to this day. Even if it's clear that a prophecy has been fulfilled in the past tense, they'll take it and make it future tense, especially stuff in relation to Babylon.
39:47: And so this is all significant. Now, let me play one other part of this clip that he...
39:53: Well, first of all, do you want to comment anything else on that before I play one other section of this clip? No, go ahead.
39:59: Alright, so here's where we... He mentions one other thing here, Tahar, who probably is my favorite guy.
40:05: I'm not saying he... He's hard not... He's certainly very charismatic. Yeah, he's hard not to like, and I love when he makes videos.
40:12: He's very charming, yeah. Yeah, and he says funny stuff, and he just seems like a personable, warm man.
40:19: Again, we think this is false doctrine, okay? So I'm not saying that to try to flatter him, although, you know, if I spoke to him,
40:26: I would try to talk to him with respect and love, and as an older man, and as a fellow human, and all that type of stuff, and by God's grace, someone seeking after truth, but at the same time, there'd be some serious things we would need to discuss, but nonetheless, listen to what he says here.
40:43: As you know, we curse these guys out. The Scriptures tell you to rebuke them, man, but they're still
40:49: Israelites, and when the kingdom is established, we're going to all come back together any damn way.
40:55: That includes High Priest Isaiah, High Priest Lehab, or High Priest Gazak. I'm calling them by the titles that they had back in the past, alright?
41:04: Whether they did wickedness or not, at the end of this thing, we're all coming back together anyway, man.
41:10: And so, there you see a few things. You see Tahar's, um, sort of he appears to have sort of a nostalgia for a more unified, authoritarian, maybe 80s, 90s type of Hebrew -Israelite thing going on.
41:24: And, um, he also has the view that it's all going to be sorted out in the kingdom, and that there will be a reunification because you'll hear some of these guys talk about this is the gathering of the
41:38: Valley of the Dry Bones, and so they believe this is a nation -building time. However, we can look around and clearly see it's not gathering, the bones are splitting and fracturing and getting more broken, if you want to continue that metaphor, because more and more groups are splintering off.
41:53: They view it as growth, I guess, but it's not more unification. It's not like sinews and muscles and joints are coming on top of the bones.
41:59: It's the opposite. The bones are getting snapped and broke and sprained all over. But, Abu, commentary on that clip.
42:05: Well, first of all, with regards to him saying that men who did wickedness are going to be in the kingdom, he's talking about men who he believes have absolutely diverged from the doctrine, but what he's alluding to is his belief that if you descend from Jacob, no matter what you did, you're going to wind up ultimately in the kingdom.
42:22: You might suffer temporarily here on Earth, maybe, as he likes to say, you'll catch a missile or something like that, but ultimately all those guys are going to wind up in the kingdom, maybe some of them feeling some shame about what they taught.
42:34: And what it shows is that salvation is ultimately based on lineage, and if you really go down to the logical conclusion of it, it doesn't matter what you do.
42:44: You can teach any doctrine you want, do anything you want, and you might suffer a little bit in this world, he likes to say,
42:51: I've seen him predict that even Ariah might lose an eye or something like that because of what he's teaching, but ultimately, if you have the right lineage, you're safe.
43:00: Yeah, and so, you know, they would sometimes accuse Christians of, you know, licentiousness, you know, type of thing, and because we teach salvation by grace.
43:11: But honestly, a lot of the Hebrew Israelites, not all of them, but a lot of them teach salvation by race.
43:17: And so there you see that coming at the forefront. Okay, so, back to the school there, you've got
43:24: Ariah growing up and really becoming prominent, the Bible man or the scriptural man, as Tahar calls him.
43:31: Who are some of the people that join in and become what are called the Seven Heads, and why do they matter? Okay, so as we had said earlier,
43:39: Bivens dies, then you have his two students and their son, so the men who would become Masha, Yaqub, and Ariah.
43:45: And then what happened is they became the Seven Heads when another four men joined them, which were
43:50: Shar, Lehab, Kazak, and Yeshia, who went their different ways at different times.
43:57: For example, Yeshia wound up getting pushed out when Kazak came to power, and so on like that. They split off, but there was a time where they were all together.
44:04: And when you talk about Tahar's nostalgia, it's a nostalgia for a period when all these groups were united in one
44:09: West. Now, what's the significance of Lehab, specifically?
44:16: Elder Lehab. There's some things I know about him, but could you comment? I'm not as familiar with some of the other
44:21: Seven Heads, besides the main ones. Well, interestingly, he's one of the guys who broke away. He wasn't pushed out, he broke away on his own.
44:29: One significant thing about him is apparently he's one of the people who tried to present the virgin birth to Ariah.
44:36: And this ties us back into this sort of begrudging acceptance of the
44:42: New Testament, or their slow acceptance of the New Testament over time. So Ariah coming from Abba Bivens, who himself came out of an environment that rejected the
44:50: New Testament altogether, slowly accepted the New Testament, and you get to this point all the way in the 90s, and this came up last
44:58: Thursday when you were discussing with Hadash, that it reached the point where they were showing Ariah the verses, the proof text for the virgin birth in Luke, and Ariah said,
45:09: Luke was lying. Now, another vestige of that is if you go to Luke 3 .23,
45:17: and specifically the King James translation, it employs parentheses when it's talking about Joseph being the father of Christ, it says as was supposed, the father of Jesus.
45:27: Now, they for a long time, one West taught that that was an interpolation, that the mere presence, they didn't base this on any sort of manuscript, purely on the use of parentheses in their favorite
45:41: English translation. So that was a period where they slowly were grappling with the
45:47: New Testament, slowly accepting more and more of it over the years, but still having arguments like saying, well, you know, it has a number of interpolations, a number of texts that you can reject.
45:56: Now here's something interesting... Hold on, hold on real quick. Keep that thought. Let's put a pause for just a second on the discussion of some of the development and the splits and all that, because we're about to get into some major splits here in the 90s.
46:09: But first, can you backtrack and tell me that anecdotal story you told me about this other group that had been discussed,
46:18: I believe it was in the book Black Judaism, or an article that you had read, I forgot the exact source, I think I might have been landing, but it relates to the
46:26: King James Version of the Bible. Do you know the anecdote I'm speaking about? It made me chuckle. We've got to share this.
46:33: Tell everyone who it is and then tell the story. Okay, let's listen to the story, guys. Story time, hold on, story time with Grandpa.
46:40: Are you a grandpa? I don't know, whatever you're Uncle Abu. Not yet, not yet, Uncle Abu. Okay, here we go. But this is relevant because the 70s are so murky.
46:50: It becomes relevant because it's in Landy's book Black Judaism, but he's actually quoting an article that's written by a guy named
46:57: Rabbi Coleman, or Rabbi Cole, who was a African -American convert to Hasidic Judaism, who had a very visceral reaction to a number of the
47:06: Hebrew -Israelite groups that existed in Harlem and Brooklyn and elsewhere, and he would write about them in articles. So Landy quotes this article where he meets with a group.
47:14: He doesn't say the name of the group. The rabbi, the African -American rabbi who met the group doesn't say what group it was, but Landy speculates, and I think he speculates wrongly, that it was a group called the
47:24: Nezachim. Whatever the case, it's about 1970. And he meets with this group, and he says, first off, the leader is wearing a turban.
47:33: The leader refers to himself, among other things, as a high priest. And this group, the leader of this group, told them that they study
47:42: Torah daily or weekly, and so when the rabbi asked them to see their Torah, they present a
47:49: King James Bible. Can you repeat that one more time? Can you say that again? So just...
47:55: One more time. One more time for all the Raiders fans out there. One more time. So again, a convert to Judaism, to Orthodox Judaism, meets with this
48:05: Israelite group in the 70s, doesn't say who they are, but the leader is wearing a turban, he refers to himself as a high priest, and he claims that they study
48:13: Torah. When this Orthodox Jew asks to see their Torah, he shows them a King James Bible.
48:19: Alright, so maybe you can see why that kind of made me chuckle. Where's your Torah? You know, the law written in Hebrew.
48:26: Right here, the King James Bible. Alright, so... The thing is, that's what he's describing.
48:34: Sounds very much like a UPK group. As far as I'm concerned, there's only two possibilities, really.
48:40: Either one he actually met with, he was at One West, or possibility, or some precursor to it, or possibility number two, there were other groups that somehow faded away that were similar, you know, with them wearing the turbans and being
48:53: King James only, and so on down the line. Which is entirely possible because, for example, the Commandant Keepers are pretty much bare bones these days, you know.
49:02: A lot of these groups came out of it, but they're not much to speak of from every accounting I can get, even though they were...
49:08: A lot of groups faded away, definitely. Yeah, like Mordecai Herman Zayasht, Mors Zion Temple disappeared, a lot of them disappeared.
49:14: That's why it's so hard to trace the precursors, because all the precursors are gone. Now let's reiterate, I want to reiterate our main topic today, and then we'll get back into the discussion about some of the changes in the school and the acceptance of the
49:26: New Testament and all that. We're saying, this is the basic synopsis if you want it, the abstract, that modern
49:34: Hebrew -Israelite theology, practice, doctrine, etc.,
49:41: has been heavily influenced by rabbinical Judaism.
49:47: That's what we're demonstrating here from this sort of prequel, in a way. Yes, to the last show, yeah.
49:53: The founders were especially, but we're saying there's still little things where you can see it popping up is kind of what we're saying there.
49:58: And there's two reasons why it's significant, at least. One is, it's something that they really deny or seem embarrassed by or shy away from.
50:06: They're vociferously, these days, anti -Judaism, and especially Talmudic, or rabbinical
50:13: Judaism. Secondly, it shows again, similar to last week's show, how much these groups change.
50:21: How much doctrinal development there has been, and honestly still will be. Comment on that before we pick back up.
50:28: We've only got maybe five minutes, ten minutes, before I want to bring on Faithful to God to pick up some of the pieces in the 90s, because we've sort of done the back in the day.
50:37: We don't know much about the 70s and 80s, but we said what we could. Let's pick up where we were. Lahab is there, these guys are there, there's some splits.
50:44: What are you going to make sure we get in before we talk to Faithful to God about that last section that we're going to cover? Well, real quick, to point out also how much their history matters, this also relates to what you started out with with the murder of the mother of Martin Luther King Jr.
51:00: To this day, while of course a lot of the groups will say, well, the murderer was never with One West, a lot of these
51:06: U .P. care groups will still refer to Martin Luther King as quote -unquote Martin Lucifer King. They have a deep hatred for him, and that goes all the way back to this pool of groups that produced
51:16: Abba Bivens, and so it's sort of from the same pool. They're not exactly in league with the murderer.
51:22: Of course, many of them would reject what he did, but their hatred, which does not translate into action, is rooted in the same environment that existed in the 60s.
51:32: Right. That's Dr. King's nickname. Do you want to share their nickname they have for Louis Farrakhan?
51:40: I actually don't know it. Oh, really? Normally, we should never be saying this, but they call him
51:47: Louis Farrakhan. Yes. Unfortunately, they love to use anti -black slurs, and that becomes especially strange with GMS, because they have a lot of white members who themselves are throwing around these racist slurs, and it becomes very strange to see a white
52:04: UPKer using words like that. Especially, have you seen the one guy who, you know, my
52:12: Southside Columbus homeboy that started that GMS clique eight or nine years ago, I understand the environment,
52:19: I understand the environment he came out of, because that's really, he was raised, we were raised in the same neighborhood in general, basically, from what he told me, so I kind of understand his environment and approach and all that, but there's another guy
52:31: I think that's in one of the Bay Area GMS that's a little bit more of like your standard prototypical, like, you know, white guy, and when he uses the
52:40: N -word, he does it with that hard ER. And listen, listen, if you think you're down enough to toss that word around, ladies and gentlemen, and you're with your friends chilling, first of all,
52:52: I don't recommend any of this, I'm just trying to give advice. Don't use the hard ER, okay?
52:59: That makes it doubly unacceptable, but this dude in GMS uses the hard ER, and anyways, there's some videos of it that kind of like make you go, ugh, ooh, anyways.
53:09: They're horrifying. Horrifying. Yeah, alright. So, okay, go on, where were we? Now I got lost in this.
53:15: New Testament. Okay, yeah. So what we were talking about was the slow acceptance of the
53:21: New Testament because they came out of an environment which had originally connected the New Testament and tried to be homophonic.
53:27: So you have the slow progression. The interesting thing is, eventually, the main school, the one that was at One West and now is at 1941
53:35: Madison, in which R .E .I. is still with, they came over time, over the decades, to fully accept the
53:42: New Testament, and now they accept the virgin birth, and even interestingly enough, because they work with the King James, they even fully accept controversial texts like the
53:50: Comma and the Ionium, and stuff like that. First John 5 -7. Yeah. Yes, First John 5 -7 of the King James Version. But the interesting thing is, unfortunately, because of the splits, some of these splits happened all of the splits happened before the full acceptance of the
54:04: New Testament by the main school, and so sadly, most of the splinter groups are still using these outdated arguments, like claiming that, as was supposed in the
54:13: King James Version of Luke 3 -23, is an interpolation because of, in parentheses, these kind of arguments. Sadly, the seeds of poison that they sowed are it's grown into these weeds all over the place in the forms of all these splinter groups.
54:28: So while the main school has fully accepted the New Testament, sadly, a lot of the other groups are still trapped in some of the arguments that date to the period where they were sort of in this middle ground.
54:38: This sort of uneasy acceptance of it, but a growing acceptance of it over the decades.
54:45: Alright, now, this is your... Listen, before this show, you emailed me so much good information.
54:53: So much archival material. I mean, Abu, everybody, this man digs into old public records, we're talking about death records, we're talking about birth certificates, we're talking about old phone books.
55:04: A phone book, to those who don't know, that are millennials, is a book that has phone numbers in it.
55:10: Sometimes it would be yellow or white, sometimes blue, anyways. This man spent some time at the library digging in, man, and has uncovered some incredibly interesting and important stuff, you know?
55:23: Details on the history, yeah. Yeah, and the reason why we're doing this... I know people are going to question our motivation, but if I could share our heart for a second, because we talked about this before the show, and we can't cover all the stuff you presented in the emails, but check it out.
55:38: We want Hebrew Israelites to hear this and be willing to self -correct. Because as you see this and start to realize everything's not all glossy like you might have thought, to be willing to challenge some of your presuppositions about where this stuff came from, and really honestly where it's going.
55:56: Are you willing to do that? Are you willing to say, I am truly a truth seeker?
56:03: And are you really willing to say, what does the scripture say here?
56:08: I know that groups think they're doing that. We understand that. And we're not claiming that, you know,
56:15: I have all perfect knowledge just because I'm sitting here. We know that. However, is the gospel right in the
56:23: Hebrew Israelite movement? And unfortunately often the answer is no. And we think that this historical analysis is a perfect chance to maybe give somebody pause and say, you know, let me reconsider.
56:33: And recalibrate. Now, don't recalibrate the shady way, which is, well, really what
56:38: I meant was all the time, a long you know, actually, you know, misquoted type of, recalibrate in a way that confesses doctrinal error and moves on in a spirit of humility seeking the truth.
56:50: I mean, I just want to share that and I pray that there's people listening who are willing to do that. Abu, do you want maybe a final, you know, kind of plea?
57:00: What's your interest? Why do you care about this? Why does it matter that we're doing this? And then I'm going to play a clip that Faithful sent me, and then we're going to bring up Faithful.
57:08: Rich, is Faithful on the line? Okay. So Abu, final kind of heartfelt cry before we turn a corner real quick here.
57:15: Well, you covered it. Ultimately, this is rooted in a stance for the truth and an attempt to invite people to the truth.
57:22: This is a small part of it because their doctrines have a history, and their history provides the context to how they reach the conclusions they do.
57:31: So it's very relevant to understanding how they reach some of these conclusions, and therefore it becomes relevant in the attempt to trying to invite these people to the truth.
57:40: That's the most important reason. That's why I'm interested in this subject. All right, that was good. Okay, now here's what we're going to do.
57:47: We're not all done. Like I said, there's so much more we could discuss, but I don't know if his phone is wacky, but maybe just turn it down until, if you want to say something, just pipe up.
57:56: But I'm going to play this clip that Faithful to God sent me, and okay, this is
58:02: Pastor King Greig, everybody, and he's going to show why, Faithful's going to explain why this is significant.
58:09: Faithful joined us last time at the end as well. He brings a unique perspective. He probably knows every interpretive framework that the
58:15: Hebrew Israelites use for any passage as well as their counter -arguments, examples. I mean, he's basically got a catalog and he's a catalog himself.
58:22: But here I'm going to play Pastor King Greig, and listen to what he says here in light of what we've just got done discussing.
58:29: Here we go. ...family or race.
58:58: So, the Bible's written to, for, and about the white race. And Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were direct descendants of Adam.
59:05: King David was a direct descendant of Adam. Yahshua the Messiah, you call Jesus Christ, He is a direct descendant of King David, who is a direct descendant of Adam.
59:13: And Yahweh promised King David as long as... well, no, He promised
59:19: King David that He would never fail to have one of His family sit on the throne.
59:26: In Westminster Abbey in England, they have Queen Elizabeth's lineage on the wall. She's a direct descendant of King David. She's a white woman.
59:31: The Bible's not written to any other race but the Adamic white race. In Deuteronomy 7 and 6, it says,
59:38: I have chosen you, Israel, above all people on the face of the earth. And He's talking to Jacob, whose name was changed to Israel, and to His twelve sons, who are the twelve tribes of Israel that Yahweh promised as long as the stars, the moon, and sun exist,
59:52: Israel would never cease to be a nation. Well, Israel only became a nation in 1948 by the help of America, France, and Britain.
01:00:00: We stole the land from the Ishmaelites and gave it to the Edomite Canaanites. And so we are the people of the book.
01:00:08: Revelation 2 9 and Revelation 3 9, Yahshua said, I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are of the synagogue of Satan.
01:00:14: Well, who do you know today that call themselves Jews with one people? That's these Antichrists, Edomites, that are the ones that murdered our
01:00:21: Heavenly Father. Alright, by the way, a little heresy at the end, where he said, murdered our
01:00:26: Heavenly Father, an ancient heresy, I believe pronounced as patrapasinism, where the
01:00:32: Heavenly Father is actually the one in some way suffering on the cross. He may have made a mistake there, not sure what's going on with that, but that's one of His many problems.
01:00:40: Faithful to God! You heard the discussion with Abu. We're doing a little prologue to today's show, which was a prequel of sorts to last week's show.
01:00:48: I encourage everyone to listen to that. It's called The Fractured Nineties. And why did you want me to play that clip here on today's dividing line?
01:00:57: Well, I think it's pretty relevant, because if you look at some of the arguments that the Christian Identity Movement uses, which actually stems a lot of their teachings from British Israelism, you're going to see parallels with what the
01:01:09: Hebrew Israelite movement teaches, specifically the One Westers. There is a lot of parallelism between what the two groups believe.
01:01:17: I mean, you kind of heard what he was talking about concerning the Jews. He refers to them as Edomites. He says the
01:01:23: Bible is only written to four in about one group of people, similar to the Hebrew Israelites. And I am of the belief, or I'm becoming more convinced, that Abba Bivens, and later
01:01:36: Arian, the rest of the people in the school, may have borrowed from the tenets of British Israelism and the
01:01:42: Christian Identity, seeing as they predate the Hebrew Israelite movement that came out of One West. Right, yeah, when
01:01:49: I was playing that clip, Rich in the other studio was just kind of in shock, sort of in awe, because he's hearing this other perspective, but yet very similar things placed upon a different group of people.
01:02:04: I'd forgotten that clip, because I had watched this before, that he calls those folks
01:02:09: Edomites, too. I'm getting a little bit of deja vu here as I'm following along, and then not following along at all!
01:02:16: Right, yeah, so that was interesting. So, Faithful, I mean, you heard the discussion, I don't know if you want to comment more on this, or you want to comment on something we've talked about today as we wind things up here.
01:02:27: Right. Oh, and quickly, for those who are listening, because I know how these guys do, because they watch this and they're going to think that we're somehow endorsing the video.
01:02:35: We do not endorse anything that that man said in that video. We are completely against what he said as well.
01:02:43: Just letting that be known. I know everyone's not watching the video, but he's got his white beard there, he's got a white t -shirt on, and his tie looks like the
01:02:55: Confederate flag there, stars and bars or whatever, and it's titled, Pastor King Gregg, Christian Identity slash
01:03:03: British Israelism. Uploaded 2008, Pastor King Gregg speaks the truth.
01:03:10: 10 ,000 views. And honestly, I think that, again, there's no coincidence here.
01:03:18: This is all being orchestrated by the same enemy that we're fighting against, which is
01:03:24: Satan. And ultimately, I know some Hebrews -like proponents said that, you know, throughout the entire show last time, we didn't say anything bad about Tahar or anybody like that.
01:03:37: Well, I'll just come out and say it. Tahar is a false prophet. The men who are in that movement are false prophets, specifically the one
01:03:44: Western. I'm talking about those men specifically. They are false prophets. Yohanna is a false prophet.
01:03:52: Nathaniel is a false prophet. All those men, false teachers, they are teaching lie, they are teaching heresy, and we are going to continue to fight against this heresy as we are called to do, and give a defense of the true gospel found in Scripture.
01:04:09: Yeah, I mean, you know, just on the 2 ,000 prophecy alone, we closed last week's show and we showed how all these guys were saying, you know, the year 2 ,000, he's coming back, it's the end of America, etc.,
01:04:21: etc. And then, you know, after the fact, they say things like, well, we were kind of forced to teach that by Eriah, and that's significant because Eriah is a significant theological heavyweight and influence in all this, so where's the discernment, you know, this type of thing.
01:04:37: And not only that, but all the people who are teaching it, you got that issue, and they have this ad hoc explanation, like, well, like Nineveh with Jonah, the people repented, and so that's why it didn't happen.
01:04:51: That's the explanation. You know, Brother Volkav, if I can just interject, I find that ironic that they would meet the appeal to Jonah, being as the
01:04:59: Lord always had a plan for Jonah to go to the people. In fact, that is what the last chapter of Jonah is talking about.
01:05:06: He's having the discussion with the Lord. He said he didn't want to go because he knew that he would save those people.
01:05:11: Now, mind you, yes, the people went back to their wickedness, and then the Lord let His wrath pour upon them.
01:05:17: But it was not the way that, for example, the UPKers, who are continuing to promote this belief that that wasn't a false prophecy that was pushed in the original school somehow wasn't false.
01:05:30: Let's look at the difference. First and foremost, Jonah was given a prophecy to Nineveh, right?
01:05:36: And they repented before the 40 days were up. And it's what the
01:05:41: Lord always knew that they would do. Whereas on the side of the Hebrew Israelites, where they're promoting this false prophecy, well, the irony of irony is that the prophecy doesn't come to pass.
01:05:53: And moreover, they ignored Christ's own warnings where He tells them that no man knows the time nor the hour except for the
01:06:02: Father. But somehow Ahariah, in his, you know, ignorance, thought that He could do something that would go against Christ's own words.
01:06:14: And that shows the folly in that movement. That shows that folly in the UPK Hebrew Israelites.
01:06:20: The whole book of Jonah is highly interesting in that Yahweh says to a man of Israel, Go to Nineveh.
01:06:31: So that's part of the Assyrian Empire, the capital of the Assyrian Empire. Go there and preach repentance to them saying that if they don't turn in 40 days,
01:06:43: God's gonna bring judgment. Well, Jonah does not want to go.
01:06:50: That's why he gets on a boat and goes the opposite way. Because later on he'll say that I knew you would relent.
01:06:57: I knew you're merciful God. And if you study the ancient Assyrians, they were cruel people especially when they defeated enemies.
01:07:04: You know, you can see the release where they were putting hooks inside of the noses and they would chain a hook to multiple men's noses and they would drag them along that way and captured enemies.
01:07:13: Just all kinds of stuff. In the VeggieTales version, for those of you who've seen it, where the prophet
01:07:19: Jonah is, their cruelty amounts to they slap people with fishes. VeggieTales can only do what they can do, but I always thought it was funny, you know, a vegetable with no arms or hands is able to slap someone with a fish anyway.
01:07:31: And the idea of a vegetable using a fish to slap another vegetable is actually funny to me. Anyways, so they did a lot more, is my point, than slap people with fishes, okay?
01:07:41: And so Jonah... That doctrine turns people into vegetables, that doctrine that those guys are promoting. Right, so Jonah doesn't want to go, goes the other way, but God is going to have his way.
01:07:52: Jonah goes there. Jonah preaches, yet forty days and Nineveh shall be overthrown.
01:07:57: And the people of Nineveh believe God. They repented. God relented. And then Jonah is heated at the end of the book.
01:08:03: He's mad about it. He says in 4 .2, and he prayed to the Lord and said, Oh Lord, is not this what
01:08:10: I said when I was yet in my country? That is why I made haste to flee to Tarshish, for I knew that you were a gracious God, and merciful, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love, and relenting from a disaster.
01:08:20: Therefore now, oh Lord, please take my life for me, for it is better for me to die than to live. So Jonah... He so wanted them to face wrath, that he's saying,
01:08:31: I'd rather die than have to see them experience God's mercy. Now later on, you know, they sinned again, and God did bring judgment to Nineveh.
01:08:39: But this whole story of a missionary out of Israel called by Yahweh to a non -Israelite people is highly significant in this whole discussion anyway, so I figured we could spend some time a little bit at the end there since you brought it up.
01:08:52: What else you want to say, faithful to God? By the way, before I forget, YouTube channel,
01:08:57: Hangouts, tell people about that, so we can make sure people write that down and follow you. Sure.
01:09:03: After this podcast is done, I will be hosting an after show on my channel. Everyone can find out by typing in faithful to God in YouTube or TTV, the numbers 20 and 50.
01:09:16: Alright. And it should be going on roughly about an hour after this program ends.
01:09:21: Alright, alright. And then there's anything else that you heard on the show you want to make sure you mention about what we just said, and then
01:09:31: I'm going to bring up Abu one final time, if he's still on the line. Sure. Sure. As far as the
01:09:36: Lashon Kodosh thing, I find it ironic that these men will make appeals to it, and yet they won't look at things, for example, like the
01:09:44: Septuagint, the way that the Septuagint transliterates names. For example, This is great.
01:09:51: I remember you first showed me this. Actually, I heard Abu. I've heard a few people with these kind of translation issues, and even with the
01:09:58: Aramaic. This is important. Everyone listen to this. Faithful, give us some importance about some Biblical evidence against this made -up language.
01:10:07: Go ahead, I'm excited now. So, for example, when we look at the Septuagint, and we look at David's son's name, which is
01:10:14: Abishalom, right, in the Masoretic, it's
01:10:20: Abishalom. Now, remember that they claim that peace is actually shalom, where they omit the waw, or shalawam.
01:10:28: Yeah, shalawam. Yeah, they always say that. Exactly. So when one looks at the
01:10:35: Septuagint, for example, we look at the word that's rendered peace in there, that's the shin, the waw, and the mem, if I'm not mistaken.
01:10:46: No, the shin, the lamed, the waw, and the mem are rendered shalom.
01:10:52: I know most listeners know, but just real quick, the Septuagint is the Greek translation made by Jewish translators of the
01:10:59: Hebrew scriptures that was made because a lot of Jews were not able to have such facility with the
01:11:05: Hebrew anymore, and so they made a Greek translation, sometimes abbreviated in academic studies as the LXX.
01:11:11: But go ahead, continue on. Right, so basically when we look at, for example, in the Hebrew and the
01:11:16: Masoretic, which they, some of them actually ignorantly call Yiddish, we'll see, for example, shalom there.
01:11:23: So how is that rendered in the Septuagint, which transliterates it from the Hebrew into the
01:11:28: Greek? Well, we see S -A -L, then the omega, which makes the O sound, and then
01:11:35: M. Basically, shalom. Put the S -H because there was no S -H sound in Greek, and you'll notice that it is perfectly in line with the same pronunciation, or pronunciation,
01:11:47: I should say, that these men claim is somehow Yiddish. Mind you, they don't even know the difference between Yiddish and, for example,
01:11:57: Hebrew, because they claim that words like elohim or things like that are somehow
01:12:03: Yiddish. That's just the irony of ironies. I want to read something very quickly from if I can find it.
01:12:10: I'll have to do that. I'll bring up Abu, because he asked something, now we've actually discussed it before, but maybe he could say one more thing about the so -called pure tongue, pure language.
01:12:21: He has some other evidence as well we've discussed, and I'll bring him up and then give him a final shout -out. Alright, break us off proper faith of the
01:12:28: God, this is kind of a last thing, homie. What you got? What?
01:12:34: What happened? You switched me over to Abu. Abu, I'm going to see you now. Oh, okay.
01:12:40: Did you just drop Faithful? Hey Faithful, we actually dropped you. He'll call back.
01:12:46: But Abu, break it down about, you've mentioned this before, but other internal Biblical evidence against the pure language, so -called.
01:12:55: Well, the interesting thing is, Faithful the God already brought up that the Septuagint has a large amount of evidence against it.
01:13:01: Now, some U .P .K .ers try to react to that by rejecting the Septuagint. That's, first of all, a problem, because they affirm the so -called
01:13:08: Apocrypha, the vast majority of which the King James Apocrypha was translated from the Septuagint. So there, the
01:13:13: Apocrypha is an affirmation of the very text they want to try to reject. But more importantly, the same sort of evidence is found in the
01:13:20: New Testament. The video you showed when you were on with Dr. White, the cry on the cross, shows that the way they speak, the way
01:13:29: Christ is quoted, he clearly wasn't speaking Lashawanna or Dosh. He was speaking something much closer to standard
01:13:36: Hebrew. Admittedly, it was a form of Aramaic, but nonetheless. Right. It shows that the vocalizations supplied by the
01:13:43: U .P .K .ers later on were not the same vocalizations that even Christ, as he's on the cross, would have utilized.
01:13:51: Actually, there's one quick thing to tie this back in with the connection with Rabbinic Judaism. The 18th character of the
01:13:58: Hebrew alphabet, if you don't include the final letters, the Sophiet letters, the 18th character is the Tzadik, right?
01:14:04: And the this U .P .K .ers, proponents of Lashawanna or Dosh, they claim that's pronounced Ta -Zah.
01:14:10: It has two syllables, the pronunciation, Ta -Zah. Now the question is, where did they get that from? And there's no evidence for that whatsoever.
01:14:18: The reason that happens is because when Arya was throwing the A vowel on every character, he was using a
01:14:24: Rabbinic transliteration of the Hebrew characters, and Rabbinic transliterations into English will often render the
01:14:31: Tzadik T -Z. So when he saw two consonants in his translation provided by a
01:14:38: Rabbinic text, he threw in the A vowel twice and created this completely ahistorical phoneme
01:14:43: Ta -Zah, or character pronounced Ha -Zah, hence Ta -Zah -Dak -Yah, for example. Oh, right.
01:14:50: How do you, um, so the information you just said, like, how would a person confirm that?
01:14:57: Do they have to read a bunch of Rabbinic literature to see, you know what I'm saying, like, I understand what you're saying,
01:15:02: I'm tracking, but how do we say to people, like, here you can see this, is it with the men earlier you mentioned who were some of the main scholars involved with bringing back
01:15:13: Hebrew, or how would a person... To this day, if you just, like, delve into Jewish texts,
01:15:19: Ashkenazi texts, and even some Sephardic texts, you'll see the way they transliterate that character, often enough it'll be
01:15:25: T -Z as the, together, to try and capture this sort of hard S sound that also exists in Arabic as the
01:15:31: Tzad, you know? And so that's, you can just see it just by going to Jewish literature that employs a transliteration of that character.
01:15:39: For example, when they're discussing, for charity, they say Tzedakah, you'll often see Jews, mainstream Jews, translating that T -Z -E -D, you know,
01:15:47: AKA, etc. So, anything, any word using that character, and then, but the real question is for you educators who want to balk at that, the real question is just to ask them, can you find one source before Aria claiming that that character, the 18th character of the
01:16:01: Hebrew alphabet was pronounced Ha -Zah? Anyone, you know? Right. Like, for example,
01:16:07: Isaac Yitzhak, you know, there's not the Septuagint, not the New Testament, nobody renders that Ha -Zah.
01:16:14: It's completely historical. And the reason why is because Aria saw those two consonants together. So he threw in two vowels.
01:16:20: Oh my, oh my. I mean, you start to see some of the similarities in some ways with Mormonism, you know, angelic visitations, we haven't even discussed all the so -called angelic visitations, supposed language skills, you know, languages that don't exist,
01:16:36: Reformed Egyptian. One thing about language skills, yeah. Yeah, you know, all this type of thing, so you start to see some of the similarities there.
01:16:43: But okay, Faithful, what were you about to say before you got dropped? Okay, yeah, can you guys hear me now?
01:16:51: Yeah. Speak at peace. So basically, if you look at Genesis 11 5, for example, in any
01:16:58: Hebrew Bible, it'll read as follows. It'll say, Now, that's the way it reads in Hebrew.
01:17:12: They claim that's Yiddish. But let's look at actual Yiddish in the same exact text. Now this is from a
01:17:18: Yiddish Bible. Look what it says. Not only is it completely different, but if you look at the way that it's written in both of the texts, because they both employ the square script, the length is different.
01:17:42: And also, again, even the way that God's name is pronounced, they pronounce God's name as Gat in Yiddish, whereas in actual
01:17:50: Hebrew, it's pronounced Yahweh, or, you know, Yud -Heh -Vah -Heh. And even people with only minimal knowledge, say, of German, can kind of hear the kind of obvious influence on the
01:18:01: Yiddish versus the way the Hebrew is. And the reason why we're bringing this out is to say, yo, these cats call modern
01:18:08: Hebrew Yiddish, but listen to what Yiddish sounds like. And it's not the same as modern Hebrew.
01:18:14: Now, if I could add one more thing, there's also the New Testament, and this was actually brought up in the video that you played to Dr.
01:18:22: White, the Lashon Kadash video that is found on Truth After Knowledge's channel. The cry on the cross,
01:18:29: I believe it is... Oh, when you were dropped, when you were dropped, Abu brought that up.
01:18:34: You probably didn't hear him. Oh, he didn't, in Matthew 27, verse 46, right. Now, ironically enough, why didn't
01:18:41: Christ say, and it could have been very easily transliterated, why didn't He say, Hey, did you just do the
01:18:53: Lashon Kadash? You know that, don't you? Yeah, so it's saying that's how it would have sounded.
01:18:59: That would have been an easy fix, you know, you have it from Christ's lips himself. Yeah, that was a good one. I like that.
01:19:04: Alright, man. So, hey, faithful to God, final shout -out, all that. What do you want to say?
01:19:11: I mean, I don't know if you want to share any of the testimonials you've heard briefly without, you know, giving too much away, but I want to maybe that's a way to close.
01:19:19: Abu, do you mind if we close with one testimonial or so by Faithful to God and call this DL a close?
01:19:25: A great show, a lot more to discuss, but we've got to get out here eventually, so maybe close with that. What do you guys think? Sound good? Sound good, thank you.
01:19:31: Alright, by the way, you guys have great, awesome resources, and yo, God has got something going on.
01:19:38: There's momentum here. There's more and more people jumping out of the woodworks that are studying these things, more and more people taking interest in it, and more and more people are growing a heart for this and see this as a mission field, and they want to help.
01:19:49: They want to be part of a solution in our churches, in our streets, and I'm glad to have some of the brothers on over the past couple weeks that are part of that.
01:19:57: So, testimonial time, and then we're done. Go ahead, what you got, Faithful? Well, basically since we started doing these reputation videos against a lot of their core doctrines,
01:20:08: I'm talking about the UPKers, the One -Westers, seven people have come out, seven confirmed people have now left the
01:20:16: Hebrew -Israelite movement, and we are hoping that more people will leave. And that is really my hope and my prayer to the
01:20:23: Lord. Ultimately, I know that a lot of these people are very much caught up in this.
01:20:30: Some of them are emotionally attached, and you'll be surprised vocab. Some of these people, even when you present to them the most thorough reputations against their doctrines, they do not want to let go.
01:20:42: And I think that ultimately, it's not the intellectual argument that is going to convince these people.
01:20:48: It is the Holy Spirit. And I hope and I pray that He will do that to every one of those people in that movement.
01:20:54: But ultimately, I do believe also that the Holy Spirit can use the intellectual argument to, at the very least, bring the person to the recognition of the flaws, the folly that is found within that movement.
01:21:08: And again, I think all of us, every one of us, should pray for those people because they are lost.
01:21:13: They do not know Jesus Christ. And we would hope and pray that one day those scales would be removed off of their eyes and they would truly come to know
01:21:22: Him as Lord and Savior. Amen. Colossians 4, 5, 6 says, "...walk in wisdom toward outsiders, making the best use of the time.
01:21:30: Let your speech always be gracious, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how you ought to answer each person."
01:21:36: And I pray that as we grow in this, we learn more and more how to answer the people that call themselves Hebrew Israelites.
01:21:42: Well, I pray that the Lord uses his show. Thank you very much, Dr. White, for having me on. You can start that outro music if that's how it works,
01:21:48: Rich. And I thank all the Dio listeners. You're going to get Dr. White back next week,
01:21:53: I believe, is in the flesh type of thing. Okay. And he'll be taking over. Thanks for having me in the meantime. And thanks for putting up with my
01:22:00: G .I. Joseph Pintor reference. That actually got a decent amount of Twitter back and forth.
01:22:06: It's just funny. And thank you, faithful to God, for joining me. Keep up what you're doing. And thank you to Abu, Truth After Knowledge, for what you're doing.