The Molinist God is a Seahawk's Fan, and Calls, on Today's DL

Alpha & Omega Ministries

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

Comments are disabled.

00:35

And welcome to The Dividing Line on some day of the week in February, I Think it's

00:42

Tuesday. Yeah, I think it's I think it's Tuesday I don't know all I know is I'm heading overseas next week, and I've just got so much stuff going on that it's

00:52

Part of it is just simply okay. How do you pack? To go to Virginia and speak in a conference and then spend a bunch of time in Ukraine Where right now it doesn't right now.

01:04

It's actually warmed up into you know. It's pretty much. You know 20s to 30s stuff like that I mean, that's a bad

01:10

You know but it could go crashing back down to who knows what and then back to London and and then and then home again

01:16

It's a long trip almost all of Starting next week almost all of February, and I have no earthy idea

01:23

What we're gonna be able to do Might you know might have to start thinking about bringing somebody in You know do so do a fill -in

01:32

So we used to do we used to do it because we had to because we had a contract Oh by the way,

01:38

I can now almost not see you because there is a monitor in the way. That's not on Is that supposed to be on?

01:47

One of these days. Oh, so you're just gonna move it okay, all right now here I thought that was gonna be something really cool

01:53

That I was gonna be able to I'm supposed to be able to see stuff on that right someday maybe possibly I'm in working in the back room here is bleeding some pennies and Seeing if I can get enough to change the sound card on or the video card out on this so that I can do some

02:09

HDMI stuff, but it might actually have to turn into a new computer. I don't know It's that's what that's so I'm supposed to be able to see what's going out on the feed

02:19

Yeah, eventually that would hopefully get mounted on your side of the well would be nice because Window What's what's what's going out?

02:28

And yeah right above the phone number would be good part of it Also is you know the new cameras we got the high -def really nice new cameras like they had at Revelation TV Yeah, we would actually be able to use well.

02:40

What's wrong with this? This would be like really high -def, but we're only streaming at a certain level

02:46

We're streaming high -def Right now we're doing some high -def right now right now. We're doing 720 well.

02:52

Okay look. It's high -def. Yes but it's all about the lens when it comes to a camera and a dinky little tiny lens that is about the size of a dime

03:07

It's not gonna Okay look

03:14

I'm gonna be really uncomfortable with a big old honking camera that close staring at my big nose

03:20

That camera is only that big I don't care. It's it's HD I mean, it's bad enough already with this thing staring at me with the blue thingy

03:28

What did we call that thing the eye the the eye of I have Sauron yes? That's the eye of Sauron except the eye of Sauron was yellow not blue It was he had a bad night

03:39

Anyway, welcome to the program. I'd have no idea why we started off that way. We might not even consider that part of It's just wasted time there

03:51

I Make sure the computer is is ready to go here well. Oh, I didn't even fire it up you don't need to see the

04:02

The audio note -taker Do you need to see audio note -taker? I mean if you start doing you know some

04:11

Greek and studying and you're looking at I don't remember what the program's called desktop something desktop presenter

04:20

Presenter there it is look at that. Yeah, see right now. We got nothing Wow things and Looking at that, and there's nothing there and a window and we'll make the window.

04:34

What's this? This is nice Oh, we see which we see your desktop now. There's there's audio note -taker. How's that? Yeah, but see

04:40

I don't even have have accordance I'll fire accordance up that we can Okay, fine fine fine.

04:45

I know you did a lot of work to get that going so you wanna And then there's the other one and it's it's got nothing either and everybody's staring it at nothing there, too well, there's

04:53

You know really really I come flying in here late with my hair on fire and One of those days

05:07

Allow and Let me see here We'll make it. We'll make it a window and now folks can see there you go

05:16

See the channel they're flying by on the side and there's what is it there?

05:22

Oh, hey, there's channel you know and go full screen there's the channel full screen you can see

05:27

Vicki and Farshad and and Your are in Okay, all right.

05:34

Oh And then someone asking a question in channel where'd my cursor go there it goes I have four screens here to move one cursor across Can you give us the

05:44

Virginia details the Virginia not really the Virginia details are on the calendar we have this calendar thing at the bottom of the website and So those are all plugged in there.

05:55

You are going to be at let me go. Well, I see knee He can't see what

06:00

I'm doing. But oh, well see I can I can go over there. It is over here We can go to is that Safari Safari?

06:09

Yeah, and some William Lane Craig God hears your Super Bowl prayers, okay Oh, that's all that's the wrong one.

06:14

I'm in Chrome. Okay Chrome and Alpha Omega Ministries, and so you're saying down here the calendar there click on 14

06:23

Virginia yes at 12 a .m. But it's a midnight service. Well, that's actually our time.

06:28

But when you're there it no No, no, there's only two. So it's a 2 a .m. Service Okay, well maybe fix that yeah, so Trinity Bible Church 6331

06:38

Campus Drive Fredericksburg, Virginia the writing and transmission of scriptures 7 p .m.

06:43

on Starts on the 14th. What that's Friday night Friday night, but don't

06:49

I fly out on Thursday? Yes Okay, you wanted you told me you want a little extra time. I want to see the

06:55

I want to see the battlefield Yeah, I want to see the battle Fredericksburg. I got you there a day early and when I go to Keeve Yeah, I'm not gonna get to go to Chernobyl the the

07:04

You have to schedule those out farther, and they're only they're only scheduled during times I'm already speaking some you know

07:10

Lord willing maybe next time well, but they have a Chernobyl Museum and a World War two museum

07:16

Okay, so I get to see the Russian tanks and stuff like I almost never do sightseeing when

07:22

I travel I almost never have time to anything else, but I'm a big World War two guy and a also

07:30

Depending on whether I'm north or south of the Mason -Dixon line the Civil War or the War of Northern Aggression Yeah, I Try to make sure

07:39

I audience I'm talking to And so I want to I've I've walked Pickett's Charge in Gettysburg many times right and I know that the

07:47

Union soldiers stood behind the wall at Pickett's Charge and chanted Fredericksburg so Fits to be able to get the opportunity so there yeah, it's right there

07:56

Look at all that detail right there right on the main page. Oh, and it disappeared There you go see

08:03

I've got to get get straight which one is which here I don't have the marked wall. I've got to get a marked wall, so I know which one you're on which

08:10

Well, I ran to the other machine there And I'm clicking and bringing that up and now we're back to the machine you're working on see oh

08:17

So we're seeing you now you should see now. You should see got half the channel.

08:22

There's the channel. Yeah, okay, so Okay You know we could have done all this before starting the program actually yeah

08:31

Like I said, I was running late with my hair on fire and flying by the seat of Arlen Arlen misspelled

08:36

Chernobyl That's not how you spell Chernobyl That's not how you should Anyways, and that's not

08:42

I don't think it's like irradiated probably might be close anyways Let's get back to what we were talking about here somewhere along the lines of stuff over here and People calling in stuff like that important stuff first and foremost

08:57

Let me just mention tonight's The big debate between the two guys with the three -letter last names nigh and ham

09:07

I'm not really planning on watching Necessarily today or tonight or whenever?

09:14

I'll probably I'm sure it's gonna be posted on YouTube someplace. I'll probably grab it

09:20

Mp3 it and Might listen to it on a ride. I've got so much. I'm really

09:25

I put a lot of my church history preparation sort of on hold to prepare for the

09:32

Spain trip and so now I'm sort of trying to catch up and and So I don't know

09:38

Look the best thing that could happen tonight would be if the presuppositional nature of both positions would be clearly

09:49

Delineated and exemplified You know I would say you know both of them are both individuals are

09:57

Speakers and so there's gonna be some there's gonna be some rhetoric and a few shots across the bow

10:03

And I predict Ken Ham will say something about Bill Nye dancing around the issue.

10:09

Ha ha ha ha ha because we all know Bill Nye was on Dancing with the Stars this last season and Didn't do too well

10:17

He couldn't really move at all, but anyways Yeah, my concern would be is if Ken Ham tries to go for too much

10:30

You'll have a certain amount of time You need to know your audience what you could try to communicate Needs to recognize there's a certain number of people are gonna be listening and watching aren't gonna hear a word

10:39

He has to say Same thing on the other side is gonna be group of people aren't gonna hear a word that Nye has to say

10:44

You can't worry about them You've got to make your decisions as to what part of that middle section of the of the slice the pie

10:51

You're going to be trying to communicate to and and that means and I say this as a pretty experienced debater that you

11:00

You have to make choices as to in whose eyes you are going to lose

11:08

The way to be a good debater is to choose to whom you will lose

11:14

So that you can actually win The people that you're trying to actually minister to now obviously

11:22

Bill Nye doesn't have that perspective couldn't have that perspective but Ken Ham should and can and so Anyway, I'll be interested in it

11:32

If there's a big huge something that develops out of it Then I'll probably grab it fairly quickly and get to it even before the next program, but we'll see we'll see

11:41

But like I said I'm gonna be teaching church history in In Keeve, I've got notes and stuff.

11:49

I need to be working. I'd only realized yesterday Hey, I only realized yesterday. I'm sitting there riding along thinking about stuff and And all sudden

11:59

I go You idiot I'm sitting here going. Okay. I know where my the overheads were from the last time

12:05

I taught church history I'll just dump them into a keynote and I'll be able to Format it and everything will work and I go

12:12

Moron, you can't do that. I've got to send it to Nick to translate first putting it up there in English isn't gonna do any good so, you know, so I'm grabbing that stuff and I've had to send that off and and Just a the language aspect

12:28

Is still hitting me and then I started looking at my electronic version my notes realize it starts with Augustin.

12:33

Oops Thankfully, I found the printed edition of all the stuff up to Augustin why that wasn't in the electronic version at least that I had

12:41

On my on my iPad I don't know but now I'm gonna have to go back and see if I can find the previous part of that Otherwise, I'm gonna have to scan all that in So it's it's good to have all that It's good to have to go back over this stuff and I cannot tell you how many different church history

12:57

Classes I've listened to over the past six months or so Just to hear other people presenting it and you know, it's been last time

13:06

I taught this was 2000 so it's been almost 14 years and Not that obviously there's portions of it that you have to go over fairly regularly.

13:14

But anyways, that's coming up and again Making a stop in London Their costs associated with that there's a link up on the on the website.

13:25

We're stopping in London and Gonna be doing unbelievable with Justin Briarley a couple programs there and which actually right now.

13:34

I only know one of them One's gonna be I guess that's be ready in season and out of season is

13:42

And you know, I don't like doing that but if it happens then hopefully your entire ministry has been a preparation for those sudden opportunities like NT right or something like that where you have very little time for preparation, but Anyhow, oh we're getting callers.

14:00

Oh Well, that's interesting. I didn't even bother to bring up the phones because I wasn't even thinking along those lines

14:05

So let me fire up the phones here and see if I can get a proper connection

14:12

We do have oh what you can see that Why should you be able to see that Okay, let's

14:23

Okay, you're lucky that your microphone wasn't I control the horizontal Okay, the first first line

14:32

That guy is is pretty much banished from the program anyways, isn't he? Well, he said something about calling in order to save us from ourselves something along those lines.

14:42

Okay. He does have a legitimate question. Oh Well, I'm not sure that guy ever has a legitimate question before we asked with you, but well, we'll think about we'll see if he has

14:51

Patience to hang on. So anyways, there were a couple things I wanted to get to and then

14:57

I guess if we take some calls we can we can do that but There was a fascinating article prior to the

15:06

Super Bowl, in fact, the article was significantly exciting than the Super Bowl which is not saying much sorry to those who in Denver, but William Lane Craig God hears your

15:17

Super Bowl prayers from Christianitytoday .com mm -hmm NFL fans know it's nearly impossible to get through a football game without reference to God whether t -bowing on the sidelines giving a shout out on ESPN or pointing to heaven after a touchdown plenty of players recognize that God's a

15:35

Part of the game that God's apostrophe s Okay, Christians need to stop acting like that's a bad thing.

15:42

According to apologist and theologian William Lane Craig He's the one they should be praying to and thanking says

15:48

Craig a professor at Biola's University's Talbot School of Theology and author of Reasonable Faith CTE's Kate Shelnut spoke with Craig about prayer providence and pigskin ahead of Sunday's big game

15:59

Craig for the record will be pulling for Peyton Manning and the Denver Broncos Okay, that's sort of funny

16:08

Recent polls have found that at least a quarter of Americans pray for sports teams and that number is even higher among Evangelicals as a theologian what these stats tell you now

16:18

Here's This is interesting. I think it shows how deeply committed they are to their teams They feel would feel compelled to pray about it

16:24

In fact, it's almost irresistible for someone who was on a team to pray that God would help him to do a good job and Win and to prevail.

16:30

I don't think there's anything the matter with that type of prayer So long as one adds the caveat nevertheless, not my will but thy will be done

16:38

Now here's here's what I want to get to What's the value in praying for God's will to be done for the outcome of a game?

16:45

If God's will will be done whether we pray or not. Now, here's Craig's response.

16:50

This is very interesting. Very interesting That's it. Now. That's a question about prayer in general

16:55

What good does it do to pray about anything if the outcome is not affected? I would say when

17:03

God listen to this when God chooses which world to actualize

17:10

He takes into account the prayers that would be offered in that world

17:17

We shouldn't think prayer is about changing the mind of God. He's omniscient.

17:23

He already knows the future But prayer makes a difference in that it can affect

17:29

What world God has chosen to create?

17:39

Do you hear that? You want to see how Completely Out of historical line with Christian orthodoxy

17:52

Mullinism is Listen to that answer. I Would say when

17:59

God chooses which world to actualize He takes into account the prayers that we offer that world

18:07

Prayer makes a difference in that it can affect what world God has chosen to create

18:17

Think about that for just a moment It's not God's glory It's not

18:23

God's purposes the the reason that God chose to create the world he chose

18:34

According to this part of it was due to the

18:42

Prayers That would be offered in a particular world Which only exists based upon this middle knowledge, which is completely outside of the sovereignty of God There is zippity -doo -dah freedom of God in this system he has one choice and One choice only to create or not to create that's it

19:05

The more I hear about this man -made philosophy the more it turns my stomach and so evidently

19:18

The prayers offered for the Seahawks Were more plentiful or more honestly offered than the prayers offered for the

19:29

Broncos Which is why the world was actuated in which the Broncos got absolutely embarrassed and crushed by the

19:36

Seahawks Not that God could have a purpose in that it's just somehow

19:43

God knew that Evidently That that the incredibly liberal fan base of the

19:53

Seahawks We're gonna be offering up better better Maybe it's just because they don't have legal pot up there yet And so the folks in Denver were just really chilled out and they forgot to pray

20:06

They had the munchies or something man, oh we're supposed to pray And this is why things happen and this is it has something to do with prayer really

20:17

I'm just I'm just Left going well, this actually does explain

20:25

This actually does explain this clip For those of you who were excited because of the unbelievable

20:35

Radio broadcast that Finally, it looks like William Lane Craig will stop taking pot shots at Reform Theology and actually meaningfully engage in In debate on the subject.

20:46

I mean, it's he says it is the center. It's it's so important He brings it up all the time in his teaching

20:56

Well Not so quick not so fast here

21:01

Here is a clip from the most recent podcast reasonable faith and I'll go ahead and kick it up one click on the speed here so we can get through it a little bit faster.

21:13

But here's Here's the answer to that question while you were in the

21:18

UK You were on a radio program there called unbelievable and this was an interaction with Paul Helm Talk a little bit about that Well, Justin Briarley who is a friend of the ministry and works with premier

21:28

Christian radio in the UK invited me to come on His show while we were visiting

21:34

London and he said I'd like you to have a debate With Paul Helm on Molin ism and Calvinism and I said no

21:40

Justin I'm not interested in getting into debates with fellow Christians about in -house issues and he said well then if not a debate

21:47

How about just a conversation where I'll simply put questions to both of you and you can be on the air at the same time

21:54

And I said, all right, that's fine. I I'm happy to submit to an informal interview or conversation

22:00

And so that was what we did. It wasn't a debate. There wasn't a case being presented and counter arguments

22:07

It was just a conversation and now let me just stop right there and say baloney baloney

22:15

Seriously, I mean this guy's does made debates. I have maybe he's even done more than I have. I don't know but Okay, there wasn't you say there wasn't a specific thesis statement, yes there was

22:26

I mean, it's very I thought it was very clear But what is this? Well, you know,

22:31

I don't want to debate fellow Christians, but we'll have a conversation Where we are debating the issue.

22:39

I mean, it's I'm sorry It's really really really hard to buy this this kind of thing

22:44

It went very well Paul Helm is a personal friend and good Christian philosopher and we had a very engaging time

22:52

Talking about these things and of course, these are perennial issues of interest to Christians So the show has generated a great deal of discussion and interest among believers.

23:01

Can we just go on record? Dr. Craig because there's always a clamor for you to debate someone on Calvinism debate someone

23:09

Someone who knows who what you just said what you said before is it's really not an area that you want to go to because Your outreach and calling are those outside of the

23:19

Christian faith not in -house debates. I mean, am I right on that? You're exactly right Kevin. My burden and my calling is to help to reach a secular

23:26

Society with the gospel and here what CS Lewis called mere Christianity is so relevant mere

23:33

Christianity for Lewis was the central Cardinal doctrines of the Christian faith, which are affirmed by all of the great confessions of Christendom both

23:41

Calvinist and Arminian and Represent the common ground on which we stand and it's those truths that I want to defend in Debate in public debate.

23:53

I want to help to reach a secular world with the gospel Now one thing that CS Lewis said that was very helpful

23:59

I thought in relation to this is that mere Christianity he said doesn't represent your stopping place.

24:05

This is not where you rest he said mere Christianity is like the Hallway or the entrance way to the building and it is off of the hallway that you find

24:15

Various rooms and it's in those rooms that you find the fireplace the reclining chair

24:21

The sofa these are the rooms where you ultimately end up the win and these represent the different specific

24:28

Doctrinal confessions and denominations of of Christendom and I certainly do have views on those subjects

24:34

It would put me in one such room, but those aren't the issues that I'm interested in debating

24:40

I want to be in the public arena out in the hallway Debating these central truths of the

24:45

Christian faith and it would be a distraction I think to be debating other people in the various rooms

24:51

Well, you're in the hall and it seems like there's some doors on the side of the hall keep opening up Bill come on You got to stay in the hall, you know, if you understand your calling,

25:00

I think that's right So there you go, folks if you were if you're excited if you're a student of Biola or Talbot or any place else and and You keep hearing

25:10

William Lane Craig promoting this strange odd Ahistorical unbiblical

25:18

Human philosophy as if it's the be -all and end -all of all things and and it comes out in his debates

25:24

And all the rest that has and if you were one of those people who was absolutely taken aback when

25:30

William and Craig debated A very well -known atheist and was was asked by that well -known atheist

25:41

What what would you identify as a false Christianity and instead of talking about Mormonism or Jehovah's Witnesses or Roman Catholicism or anything like that The first thing that popped out of Bill Craig's mouth was

25:55

Calvinism And you would think Therefore that since he speaks against Calvinism and he promotes this perspective which is directly opposite and has engaged in this discussion with Paul Helm that maybe a

26:10

Formal debate would be so very useful to others Well Bill Craig says

26:16

I'm just not interested now part of this is because we we've heard many times that dr

26:22

Craig really doesn't think that theologians Are really worth even emulating and things like that.

26:31

They're just not you know he's a philosopher and so, you know, it's it's got to be all the philosophy and clearly clearly he doesn't have a really high view of Of Theologians and that's where Reformed Theology finds its its marrow and source is in theology

26:47

There are certainly many Reformed philosophers, but if you're going to be Reformed you're going to have

26:53

Way too high a view of the relationship of scripture to philosophy. I think to really a folk, you know appear on the radar of Of dr.

27:03

Craig. So there you go The the value to the church the value to students that I'm just I'm just I just not my calling

27:12

I'm Called to do other things now. I am NOT for a second saying that we should do something other than our calling

27:18

I mean, there's all sorts of topics. I will not engage but if I'm not going to engage your topics I'm not gonna be running around talking about them all the time

27:25

It'd be like me running around talking about Islam all the time saying well But it's not my calling actually to address

27:30

Islam. What that doesn't make a lick of sense If he was not addressing it if he was not promoting a specific philosophy that was that he admits was in initially formulated and and enunciated as an anti -reformed

27:51

Anti -reformation methodology by the Jesuits to fight the influence of the

27:58

Reformed If he wasn't going around promoting that all the time Fine then you could hardly fault him for not wanting to get involved in debating it but he is and he does and He's the one that sat there

28:14

At Biola and and the first thought across his mind when he's debating Christopher Hitchens As to false false

28:21

Christian religion is Calvinism for crying out loud and then when he gets challenged So here's what we need to do

28:30

Is we need to find a church in the Atlanta area

28:37

That Recognizes that this is not appropriate and We need to invite.

28:45

Dr. Craig to to come and we'll set up a chair and We'll set up a time and we'll provide the chair and if he wants to come that'd be great

28:55

But if he doesn't come we'll do the presentation anyways because that's exactly what he did to Richard Dawkins because he recognizes

29:03

That Dawkins had no excuse for not debating him and I would submit he has no excuse for not debating me now right now

29:09

He says well, I've got this book. I'm finishing. I understand that. I've got I've got a couple books to finish myself I fully understand that But I I think we're still make the contact in even in light of this statement

29:22

Issue the challenge and if we get turned down then we'll just let him know We're gonna we really think that in light of your identification of Calvinism as an example of false religion and so on and so forth

29:35

You know, we're gonna We're gonna make this available and we we think that this issue needs to be addressed

29:41

And so I think that's important now. We do have one call on Molandism and I'm sort of breaking my own rule here to to do this, but I'm gonna

29:52

I'm gonna I'm gonna take I'm gonna take the chance and Let's let's go ahead and since it is over in Atlanta, let's go ahead and Talk to Alan Better make this good

30:05

Alan. That's all I can say With such a warm. Welcome. I It's almost as warm as it is in Atlanta right now

30:14

Yeah, exactly in fact is it gonna be snowing there soon There they were calling for snow on Friday, but now they're saying it's gonna be rain

30:23

So Yes, I don't do well in the snow here I but I noticed the the the

30:31

Tens of thousands of people trying out for the next season of The Walking Dead During the last snowstorm in Atlanta.

30:38

Yeah, it was pretty that was pretty cool. Yeah Yeah, I'm surprised the the folks from TWD weren't out shooting a lot of extra footage

30:47

I mean, can you imagine what it would cost them to make all those cars on all those freeways, you know just turned every which direction and Wondered why why don't we have episodes of walkers in snow?

31:01

What does a walker look like in snow? Anyways, you know, I had no idea but there's plenty of pictures out there that they some stills that maybe some video footage that they

31:09

Can grab off of Facebook and use in their next season. I think it would be a good idea, but that was in a different Visualized or actuated world.

31:18

So what's What is your question about Molinism? you always

31:24

You and others are always making reference to The card dealer. Yes.

31:30

Mm -hmm, and it's been on my thoughts a lot recently and I and I thought

31:36

The statement that that you could you point towards Armenians or synergist in general is that the triune

31:43

God? Try really hard the father elects everybody I guess the son comes to pay and the spirit goes to apply but The triune

31:53

God fails at the almighty will of man and it sort of hit me that in Molinism, it seems that the card dealer this power that's beyond God Is man, and so you're kind of right back to Classic synergism or just typical synergism well

32:11

In a way because the the card dealer is

32:18

The s the it's so hard to explain the the essence of Middle knowledge which involves the idea of knowing what a free agent would do given certain circumstances plays certain circumstances

32:34

That does go back to mankind's behavior mankind's actions But the incoherent part as far as I understand it is

32:45

How we can know what any? Human being would do before being decreed by God to be made in a certain way because our decisions are not just some

32:55

Some thing that just floats around out there and and that's that's the real question is does the card dealer?

33:02

Determine what non decreed to be created individuals would be like Even before God decrees to make them in a particular way.

33:13

I mean, it's just it's just so It's so weird, but but functionally it all ends up coming back in that.

33:21

I don't know how else to understand what he said but the prayers for the

33:26

Seattle Seahawks versus the prayers the Denver Broncos Evidently Influenced God as to his decision as to which world to actuate.

33:38

I don't know how you can avoid that FYI, they did also Have legalized marijuana in Washington as well.

33:46

I think those are the only two states actually Colorado and Washington. Well, I don't think they have quite as much of it in in in Washington yet, though Well, there's no doubt in my mind that the

33:56

Broncos might have been partaking and imbibing before Well, the way the way the offense is playing it did it did seem that that was an issue

34:04

Yeah, that that's a that's possibility But okay well These questions about the car dealer would be wonderful for you to ask

34:10

William Lane Craig when he comes to oh, wait Never mind. I Will I'm in the

34:18

Atlanta area. You've been to our church before I will float it past elders and see what they say and Maybe talk to some other people.

34:27

I know there's a Presbyterian Church In Metro Atlanta that you've been to before that also might be interesting.

34:33

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. That's right. That's right I can't remember the name of the name of it, but I spoke with them

34:39

I was there with that was same time as John Mark's wedding wasn't it?

34:46

No, it was it was like a couple years after that Was it because I know I was with can't be at some point that weekend

34:53

But anyway, I don't remember all the stuff years are all squished together

34:59

Yes, they are. So I'll try to find out and see if me It's just frustrating.

35:06

He does he makes public statements all the time about Calvinism and and anybody who would say

35:12

That John Calvin is a hyper Calvinist in my opinion has no business being in a position of Christian academia

35:19

That is so ridiculous. Well, I had somebody somebody on Facebook said that the next week he corrected himself on that I'm not sure what that means

35:26

I is that sort of like Dave Hunt starting off saying I don't know anything about the Reformers and six months later He knows more about the

35:32

Reformers than anyone else. I you know, I'm not even talking about the the the anachronism I mean just the position itself.

35:39

I mean, of course, it's an an anachronistic statement to say that but that that aside The position of hyper

35:45

Calvinism and John Calvin's own position were worlds apart. So anyway, that's good girl

35:51

I hope he did correct himself. It was a terrible statement But yeah, he makes these statements all the time in public about Calvinism Then he's asked to defend him and won't do it unless he's on his buddy's show and it's not a debate.

36:02

It's a Discussion. Yes a very nice discussion, which was I'm gonna start up my car, you know the one that you

36:09

Yeah, figure out how to get the seat on in which by the way, I drive very well Well, then that's that's a new development of yours then.

36:17

I'm glad to hear that. I'm glad I'm glad I Called today they're

36:23

Alan and nice to have talked He's gotta understand. I control the horizontal on this end

36:31

Eyes dropped him. That's funny. I was gonna tell him what book had just said about him in channel

36:36

He said red sounds less like a circus clown than I expected We have such loving loving loving stuff in in channel.

36:48

We really do What's that other song we sing beloved let us rip and shred Rip and shred by another.

36:54

Yeah something along those lines. So yeah Anyway, no, I you know again, I I don't think there's any question whatsoever

37:03

Of the value to a wide wide wide range of people to hear a meaningful encounter on this on this subject and To say well,

37:14

I have to leave it for somebody else I guess Just seems Completely completely off of well

37:21

The thing is what drives me crazy about it is that the I can't imagine we would not have a packed house

37:27

Oh, of course, we would I mean the tension now my understanding is Dr. Craig gets a pretty penny for doing debates real pretty penny

37:36

My understanding is the Sam Harris debate cost the group that put it on $65 ,000

37:44

Whoa, and 50 of that was in honorariums. Yeah. Well, that's my understanding So that might be just if that's the case

37:52

Then I think it ever gonna happen because there's most of time I walk out I walk out without zippity -doo -dah just so we can do debates

38:01

Yeah, so maybe it that could be part of it too is that I'm just I just I'm not in that elite group

38:08

Even though we've debated me the same people But Anyway, so maybe that's that's the issue.

38:14

I don't I have no earthly idea since we're getting lots calls That's cool with me Maybe the fact that we're doing this

38:23

At the actual pointed time has something to do with it. But let's let's go ahead and talk with Ben and Gilbert.

38:30

Hi, Ben Hello, how you doing doing good? I just wanted to say that You guys for four years

38:38

I've been really blessed by the ministry met me and my family we came from Pentecostal Church and we ended up Listening.

38:44

I listened a lot to you or to your debates and your past debates and I read a couple of your books and it

38:50

Really taught me a lot of stuff. Well good. Um, I had a question on your interaction with dr

38:56

Brown, uh -huh in the revelation right on broadcast and I wanted to understand better But more clearly because I thought

39:03

I had a grasp on it But I guess maybe I'm not grasping it done John 316 the word world

39:09

It sounded like you said it wasn't Referring specifically to the elect.

39:15

So then who if that's the case, then who is it referring to? well, and that's that's one of the problems there is a

39:23

Article on on our website an open letter responding to Dave Hunt where I go through John chapter 3 and It would be a

39:38

Redundancy For John 316 and by the way, I have this up rich in in accordance for if you want to do something with it

39:47

But it would be a redundancy if it said for God So loved the elect

39:52

That he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in him because the whosoever believeth in him is the elect anyways so I wasn't sure why

40:02

Evidently Michael assumed Incorrectly that I would take the idea that That cosmon in John 316 is just simply a another phrase for the elect

40:17

The the cosmon and John as I said some have identified between 10 and 14 different nuances in the use of cosmos in the

40:28

Ohanian corpus and in John's writings the gospel the three epistles and the book of Revelation taking them all as the corpus of John's writings there are some who would dispute that obviously some think that John the presbyter was the author of certain things rather than John the

40:43

Beloved Apostle but taking leaving that aside There are obviously great connections

40:49

Even if we have different authors in those books as to the utilization of the word world

40:55

We are told for example that the the disciples have been given to Christ out of the world and so there is a distinction between those who receive the

41:07

Redeeming love of God and those who do not in John chapter 17.

41:13

Jesus says I do not pray for the world But for those who've given me out of the world the the epistle of John has the the issue of If anyone loves the world the love of the

41:27

Father is not in him and so clearly That context of loving the world is totally different than the love

41:35

God has for the world here. They're not the same world so so any Situation where you try to Cram one single meaning for cosmos into every usage what

41:50

I call the Strong's exhaustive concordance errant methodology of study

41:58

You're gonna end up twisting the passages that you're in Whatever cosmos is in John 3 16 the demonstration of God's love toward that results in Two things

42:16

First particularity, what do I mean by that? well if Cosmon meant every single human being and the love being distressed described here

42:28

And this was John's intention to even be just even be addressing these things, which I don't think it is But if it was every single human being

42:36

Then why is particularity? Introduced in the same sentence because there's a

42:41

Hinnok clause in order that Pass hoppest you own everyone believing in him might not perish but might have eternal life so if if if the idea is

42:56

That this is every single human being Then why is it that this giving of the

43:02

Sun results only in a certain group? gaining eternal life

43:07

So that's that's why the whole idea of trying to say well Cosmon Here world here means this portion of humanity or that portion of humanity

43:17

No It simply means a demonstration of love on God's part

43:22

Toward the world that resulted in the self giving of the Sun and the actuating of the work of salvation

43:28

Now you could say that that is a general revelation because there is a general revelation obviously of God's graciousness in the giving of Jesus Christ and in the

43:37

Establishment of the gospel you could you could say that in the general sense of all of humanity because as The same writers gonna say in Revelation chapter 5

43:48

By the death of that lamb the lamb was slain and he purchased with his blood men from every tribe tongue people and nation

43:56

But the the error I think is trying to force Cosmon here

44:02

Into some category that the author is not intending to to give the point is that there is a demonstration of love toward the world

44:10

That results in the sending of the Sun So that everyone believing in him might not perish but have everlasting life

44:18

But the very next sentence also goes on to say for God did not send his son into the world so that would if if if that is

44:29

If we're gonna if we're gonna say that within What one single line?

44:36

The term Cosmon has to have the same meaning here It's the it's just the the general created order in which the incarnation takes place but then the very next phrase is into the world to condemn the world and Condemnation would only be in reference to those who have sinned

44:57

But that the world might be saved through him So you have you have three different uses of Cosmon in the very next sentence that require careful attention

45:08

And unfortunately the vast majority of folks who go to John chapter 3 Don't don't show don't don't don't see that and they they don't they don't allow that to to take place and and obviously dealing with this

45:24

Particular subject takes time It's difficult to do in a fast -moving debate situation

45:32

But just just bring just these issues up here I think demonstrates that you have to really give some serious thought to the very various nuances

45:42

That John himself intends to be understood by the word world Because the

45:47

Sun is sent into the world Not to judge the world but that the world through him might be saved

45:55

So I think the best way to understand that is in the same context that you have in Revelation chapter 5 and that is

46:02

That in general the result of this act of love that God has toward the world is that men from every tribe tongue people in?

46:09

Nation will be saved and I believe I could make a pretty strong argument that that is what people in that day would have understood

46:16

They didn't have the kind of Individualistic mindset that we have in Western culture today and especially

46:23

Jewish people would have understood world as the world of Jews and Gentiles Every tribe tongue people a nation and since that is the language that is generally utilized by the author himself

46:34

That's the that's the best way to take it Thank you very much. Thank you very much I'm not sick because you gave a great great answer, but to make sure

46:42

I understand so he's basically starting off The world just making a general truth that God loved the world and then he's

46:51

Sharpening, I guess the the point by saying this is what he did for those This is what he did and the result to everyone who believes

47:01

And then the very next sentence when you use the same word three different times. Yeah It's clear.

47:08

It's clear that the trying to interpret John 3 16 and The meaning of kosmon there without looking at the utilization of cosmos kosmon in verse 17

47:20

Isn't going to get you anywhere when you get to verse 17, and then you let the rest of John also speak It's a pretty consistent picture that is presented

47:28

But as I said, there's a number of different uses of the word world that have to be

47:34

Taken into consideration and look the vast majority of people who are quoting this aren't taking that stuff into consideration at all.

47:40

They're just They're just throwing it out there and hoping that their interpretation is gonna stick in your mind and That's really not how to handle the

47:49

Word of God in a proper way. Okay, Ben. Thanks so much. I appreciate it. All right. Thanks, Ben Thanks for calling.

47:54

Bye. Bye. God bless you. All right, let's Run to a colder place. Let's talk to Russ in Illinois.

48:02

Hi Russ Hello, doctor. I do. I have a question about the

48:07

Jehovah's Witnesses and the Mormons They both teach that there was a great apostasy or falling away

48:14

After the death of the last Apostle until they saved the day Dealing with JWs at the moment.

48:20

What what do you say to them? well they have they have a different way of Looking at that there's the the doctrine amongst

48:34

Mormons is a very Specific doctrine in regards to their concept of the priesthood

48:42

That is the priesthood authority was lost and therefore the church went into apostasy and and so on and so forth and There's there's the problem there.

48:52

Now Jehovah's Witnesses have a much less How should

48:58

I put specific Concept of apostasy in the sense that they don't have a priesthood

49:04

They they would say that the anointed Continued to be gathered though very few

49:10

I would imagine from the time of the founding of the church All the way up to the modern day

49:16

But that there was a general apostasy in the sense of the acceptance of the doctrine of the Trinity which is a pagan doctrine

49:23

Drawn from Greek philosophy and all the rest that kind of stuff and that the number of true believers in Jehovah became very small

49:32

During that time period so one the Mormons have a complete apostasy doctrine where the church and all priesthood authority disappears the

49:41

Jehovah's Witnesses have more of a the church goes underground and is only found amongst small a small number of people until sort of the not so much restoration even that's terminology

49:52

Mormons use restoration with The founding of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. There are a number of ways of responding to apostasy arguments

50:02

One that I find particularly helpful is the words of the

50:07

Apostle Paul in Ephesians chapter 3 Where he says now to him who is able to do far more abundantly beyond all that we ask or think according to the power

50:15

That works within us to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations forever and ever.

50:21

Amen And so there is a specific assertion that is made

50:28

Ais passos tas geneas Through all generations the church is going to be there and is going to be a means by which

50:35

God is glorified It doesn't mean it's going to necessarily be a big huge thing or predominant

50:42

Generally that the church is is not predominant in at least the true church in that fashion But that it is his purpose that every generation see

50:52

The the work of God in Christ in the church and that God be glorified through the church So while the

50:58

Bible itself talks about apostasy and the Bible itself gives indication of evil men growing worse and worse deceiving and being deceived so on and so forth the the church will abide the church will continue on because it is

51:12

God's purpose to do so and There is no power that can stop him from from building his church

51:17

It it may not look like the world would expect it to look But that is that is his will and there is no power that's going to be able to stop him from doing that At what point in what the

51:31

Catholic Church would you say that Rome stopped preaching the gospel Well, the the better question is when did

51:38

Rome become Roman Catholicism? I mean, for example, there is no one the Council of Nicaea who would have even understood the phrase

51:46

Roman Catholic So so when when Roman Catholics Pretend that that church has existed for 2 ,000 years.

51:56

They have to redefine what the church is there was no one the Council of Nicaea that believed in papal infallibility or the bodily assumption of Mary or immaculate conception all the rest this kind of stuff that is now a dogma of the

52:08

Roman Catholic faith and believe in purgatory and indulgences From the

52:14

Pope or is that an invention? I'm sorry. I didn't hear that Those two people that showed up at the

52:21

Council of Nicaea is supposedly from the Pope. Is that an invention? No, no, no, no Pope the the

52:26

Bishop of Rome and by the way, the term Pope is inappropriate that point The Bishop of Carthage was called

52:32

Pope around that period of time so that that that is a later development many many many people on both sides of the

52:39

Tiber River and Anachronistically read later developments back into early church history. It's a it's a common problem the papacy developed over time even even the heights the papacy that developed say in the 5th century were still much lower than what you find in in the 13th century and And how people viewed that so while there was while the the

53:03

Bishop of Rome had representatives at Nicaea They're a small portion and no one there dreamed that the

53:10

Bishop of Rome's Authority is what convoked the council or what was necessary to even ratify the council

53:17

No one had any concept of that whatsoever. So that was not a that was not the Roman Catholic Church.

53:23

You have to completely Disrupt the entire flow of history and anachronistically read all sorts of things back into history to come up with that concept

53:32

It's just it's just ridiculous So personally when people ask me when do I feel that the

53:37

Roman Catholic Church as an identifiable? Organization really came into existence. I'd say the fourth ladder in Council About 1215 because at that point you not only have the pretensions of the

53:48

Pope reaching heights, but you also have the dogmatic definition of the concept of transubstantiation in the mass and Yes You mentioned in passing one time that when

54:03

King James authorized the translation of the Bible He made a stipulation that they couldn't translate the word baptism

54:11

Right. I have your King James book, but I've never seen anything about any restrictions he put on the translations

54:18

Well, I gave references to the original sources that give the list of terms

54:23

For example, ecclesia could not be assembly. It had to be church Baptism had to be transliterated.

54:29

It could not be translated another way. There are numerous historical sources that discuss the relationship of the

54:35

King to the to the to the translators, but I'm not sure what that had to do with the with the subject of of the development of Roman Catholicism, but I appreciate your your phone call

54:47

Russ and Let's try to sneak one more in here. Let's talk with Daniel down in Tucson. Hi Daniel My question is about a person in my church who's in a minor leadership position with the youth group a sort of a teaching position and recently when

55:05

I was talking to him about Reformed Theology, it came out that he might hold to some open theistic views and I'm supposed to meet with an elder and I was wondering if you could give me like some advice on how to approach that and how to kind of Explain that that's a serious issue.

55:21

Yeah. Well, um I have you heard my my debate on open theism with John Sanders?

55:34

Okay, well have we have we put that up rich you can't remember, huh?

55:42

Okay I would assume if it isn't up it should be up or will eventually be up on on YouTube That was from 2001 if I recall correctly or something around that time period anyway that would be the largest body of material that I've put out there the debate with John Sanders on open theism and and obviously my opening presentation on that would be

56:09

The best information I could give you there are a number of books that have been written Bruce Ware and others have Written books and open theism that the fact the matter is that despite the best efforts of people like Norman Geisler and Bruce Ware the

56:23

Evangelical Theological Society was not able to Expel the open theists from their from their ranks.

56:29

I do believe that it is a heretical denial of Biblical truth.

56:36

I I don't necessarily think that it's necessarily damnable in the sense that I think someone could

56:42

Come up with that idea at least for a period of time but I think the the persistent embracing of it in light of the clear biblical evidence could indicate a a

56:55

Damnable heresy on someone's part because certainly there is no way to make open theism commensurate with biblical revelation and and my

57:06

Looking at open theists such as Gregory Boyd and Clark Pinnock and others their view of scriptural integrity and scriptural

57:13

Revelation has always been damaged by holding to that that perspective because it's just it's just unbiblical

57:19

You can't you can't deal with the Bible's teaching about God and his sovereignty over time and hold that so I would obviously focus upon the fact that open theism

57:31

Depersonalizes salvation as John Sanders admitted There is no God when

57:36

God created he did not know that you would exist and therefore when Christ died There was no union of the of the people of God with Christ or anything like that And of course it completely undercuts the entire prophetic

57:48

Portion of Scripture you can't have prophecy in an open theistic universe You can only have general predictions of natural events

57:57

But so much of what prophecy is about is what free creatures do and that's the very thing that open theism says

58:03

God does not know is what free creatures will do in the future So I think it is it is important and if your church has a statement of faith

58:12

Hopefully that statement of faith specifically affirms God's knowledge of future events and and his sovereignty over them

58:26

Yeah, well, unfortunately that's sort of like Phillips Craig and Dean signing the

58:31

Baptist faith and message That's not quite specific enough An open theist would say of course he has limitless knowledge.

58:37

Yeah, he has infinite knowledge, but That they would argue that the actions of free creatures that have not yet taken place are not a are not a part of the knowledge that God could have and Therefore it's not that that knowledge exists, and he doesn't have it.

58:54

It's that that knowledge doesn't exist yet and Therefore he has limitless knowledge, but it does not include things that do not yet exist yet.

59:02

That's how they get around that All right All right. Thanks Daniel. Thanks for calling today. Thanks for everybody who called in I really hadn't thought too much about phone calls today, but it worked out all right even

59:13

We even managed to get Alan through that so, you know, we had to sort of help him along a little bit But so you managed to get

59:19

Alan through that without too much difficulty Lord willing we will be back On Thursday probably the regular time even maybe or maybe earlier.