August 3, 2020 Show with Adam Dooley on “Hope When Life Unravels”

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August 4, 2020

August 3, 2020 ADAM DOOLEY, author, conference speaker & Pastor of Englewood Baptist Church of Jackson, TN, who will address: “HOPE WHEN LIFE UNRAVELS”

00:04: Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown
00:10: Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,
00:23: Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.
00:31: Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.
00:38: Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation, to make one another wiser and better.
00:50: It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions, and now here's your host,
01:00: Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,
01:10: Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet
01:15: Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.
01:21: This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday, and this is
01:28: August the 3rd, 2020, and before I introduce my guest and the topic that we are going to be addressing, it's a very appropriate topic to hear after what
01:44: I'm about to say, but there are friends of mine, very dear friends of mine, who both lost very important individuals within the last few days, and I want to dedicate this show to them.
02:02: Many of you, especially those who have listened to this show going back to 2005, when we first launched.
02:11: Many of you will recognize the name Dr. Latane C. Scott, author, a former
02:17: Mormon who came to the true Christ and true gospel of the scriptures.
02:25: Well, her precious beloved husband, Dan, after battling a long debilitating illness, he went home to be with the
02:37: Lord, and that was just several days ago. I was saddened to hear the news, but at the same time,
02:51: Dan was a faithful Christian, and Latane has every ounce of certainty that he is now for eternity in the arms of Christ, and in fact, it was a very moving account that Latane provided, the fact that Dan was in her arms when he passed so peacefully into the arms of his
03:20: Savior, and they had been married 47 years.
03:27: So, please pray for Latane C. Scott and her children, who are now in the mourning process over having lost
03:36: Dan. And on top of that, many of you also may remember folks that I have interviewed, a couple, a dear sweet couple who are very important in my life,
03:52: Jerry and Fern Hill, the founder of the Timothy Hill Children's Ranch in Riverhead, Long Island, New York.
04:01: The Timothy Hill Children's Ranch was founded in the, I believe, the late 70s, and was founded and named after their son,
04:17: Jerry and Fern Hill's son, Timothy, who was 12 years old and killed in a horrible accident riding his bicycle to school, killed by a truck driver.
04:29: And they knew that Timothy had a heart for homeless children, even as a young child, because he had witnessed his parents taking in foster children, and he had actually said that he wanted to one day start a ranch for homeless children.
04:46: Timothy loved farm animals and actually saved up money from his paper route and bought his own horse, an
04:53: Appaloosa horse named Apple, bought with his own money. How many 12 -year -olds have you ever heard of who could do that?
05:01: Well, the Timothy Hill Ranch was founded in Timothy's honor after that tragic death of their son.
05:09: Well, the Hills, just a couple of days ago, lost another son.
05:16: Their second oldest, Timothy would have been the oldest. Their second oldest son,
05:21: Thomas, passed away after a battle with pancreatic cancer, quite a deadly form of cancer that usually has very little hope for rescue.
05:36: Although I know one person who has lived for decades after surviving pancreatic cancer.
05:43: The doctors amazingly and nearly miraculously found this cancer very early on in the beginning stages, which hardly ever happens.
05:54: But my friend Bobby Lloyd is a survivor of pancreatic cancer, but that's a very rare thing.
05:59: But Thomas Hill died of pancreatic cancer, and Thomas was a rebel.
06:06: He was raised in a very strong Christian home. His parents, as I just mentioned,
06:11: Jerry and Fern Hill, dear Christian saints. And Thomas, even having had the privilege and the benefit of being raised by two wonderful Christian parents, he was a black sheep in the family and a rebel for many years.
06:27: And then, thankfully, praise be to God, this illness, this pancreatic illness, was used by God to bring
06:35: Thomas to repentance and to a right relationship with Christ before he departed this earth.
06:43: I was so moved by the way Thomas's younger brother, Thaddeus Hill, who is now the executive director of the
06:50: Timothy Hill Children's Ranch. Thaddeus, or as he is affectionately known as,
06:56: Thud, by his friends, he posted on Facebook the night of Thomas Hill's passing, which was just a couple of days ago.
07:09: I think it may have been Saturday. At 9 .09 p .m., my big brother Tom passed on from this world.
07:16: He was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer a few months ago. The last couple of months have been filled with many family dinners, fire pit hangouts, laughter, prayers, singing, one last swim in the ocean, and even a fishing trip off Montauk, which is in eastern
07:34: Suffolk County, Long Island. God allowed a great deal of healing to happen in our family in recent months, and through Tom's journey, it strengthened our family bonds.
07:44: I'm grateful that God uses the mess in this life to bring about a message.
07:50: The message he brought forth from Tom's journey is you can always come back home to family and to Jesus and Abba, and love never fails, it always wins.
08:02: I expect that Tom has been hugged by Jesus and Timothy already, and as I mentioned,
08:07: Timothy would have been their older brother who died when he was 12. I'm glad to know you are forever at peace,
08:15: Tom. Give Timothy, Jesus, and Abba a hug for me. That's Thaddeus Hill, Executive Director of the
08:23: Timothy Hill Children's Ranch in Riverhead, Long Island, New York. If anybody wants to find out more about the
08:30: Timothy Hill Ranch, it's a good place to include in your charitable donation list.
08:42: Their website is timothyhill .org. Well, after having said that, as I said before, we have a perfect guest today.
08:53: He's a first -time guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, very strongly recommended to me by my friend
09:00: Pastor Ron McKinney. Pastor Ron strongly urged me to invite
09:08: Adam on the show, and Adam Dooley is Pastor of Inglewood Baptist Church of Jackson, Tennessee, and today we're going to be discussing his book,
09:19: Hope When Life Unravels, Finding God When It Hurts. It's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Adam Dooley.
09:31: Chris, it's great to be here. Thank you so much for having me today. No, my pleasure, and let me give my audience our email address right away in the event that they would like to join us with a question of their own.
09:42: Our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com.
09:50: As always, please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the
09:56: USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter, and obviously with a subject matter like this,
10:08: Hope When Life Unravels, Finding God When It Hurts, obviously that lends itself to folks listening possibly having very personal and intimate and private questions that they want to ask that they don't want to be used to draw attention to their identity.
10:27: So we will grant you that request if you choose to be anonymous, but if it's just a general question, it's not a personal and private question, please give us at least your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the
10:40: USA. Well, very first of all, why don't you describe in summary form something about the church where you pastor,
10:52: Englewood Baptist Church of Jackson, Tennessee. Yeah, Chris, I've been here at Englewood for just one year this past month, and it is such a great place.
11:05: We are right in the heart of Jackson and blessed to have
11:12: Union University here in our city, and so we partner a lot with them, and it's a church that loves the
11:19: Bible and really craves Biblical exposition, and so it's been a marriage made in heaven since we moved here last
11:29: July. Praise God, and if you wouldn't mind now, first of all, let me also give the website for your church if anybody's interested in looking up more about Englewood Baptist Church there in Englewood, Tennessee.
11:51: The email, I'm sorry, the website address is ebc, for Englewood Baptist Church, jackson .org,
11:58: ebcjackson .org, and that's Englewood Baptist Church of Jackson, Tennessee. I apologize, so I'm assuming that Englewood must be a town or a suburb of Jackson, or I don't know how that connection works.
12:14: Yeah, Englewood was a community in Jackson that really has gotten lost as the city has grown, but we're in the heart of Jackson, Tennessee, and Jackson is located almost halfway between Nashville and Memphis, Tennessee, right on I -40.
12:33: So any listeners that are familiar with that part of the country, that'll let you know where we are. A city of about 100 ,000 people, if you count the surrounding county, and so it's a great place to pastor and a great place to raise a family.
12:50: Praise God, and I also want to give a plug to my friend, Pastor Ron McKinney's church, since he's the one that first informed me about our guest today,
13:01: Adam Dooley, and urged me to interview him. Ron McKinney is pastor of Kinsey Drive Baptist Church in Dalton, Georgia, and that website is
13:10: KinseyDriveBaptistChurch .com. KinseyDriveBaptistChurch .com, and he is actually going to be our guest this
13:16: Thursday, so we hope that you tune in to hear another interview with Ron McKinney.
13:23: We are still working on a title, a theme, and Ron, if you're listening, perhaps you can email me the theme, because we had not yet chosen one for our next interview.
13:35: Well, as I told you before the broadcast, brother, whenever I have a first -time guest on the program, especially if they are a
13:47: Christian, which would mean the vast majority of our guests, I occasionally have a non -Christian on the show if they have something of value to say to the body of Christ, but the vast majority of my guests are
14:00: Christians, and whenever I have a first -time guest, they give a summary of their salvation testimony, including the kind of religious atmosphere in which they were raised, if any, and the providential circumstances our sovereign
14:12: Lord raised up in their lives that drew them to himself and saved them.
14:18: So that would include you, if you could give us a summary of that story. Yeah, I'm happy to do that, because my journey,
14:24: I think, is typical for a lot of Baptist kids.
14:29: I grew up in a Baptist home, and my parents always took me to church, and very much part of the revivalistic tradition of our denomination.
14:40: In fact, it was a revival service when I was just nine years old that I stepped out on the aisle of my little church in Kentucky, where I was born and raised, and made a profession of faith.
14:57: However, Chris, I will tell you, at that point, really all I knew was that I didn't want to go to hell, and I believed in Jesus.
15:07: But that was about the extent of it, and really nothing happened after I came forward.
15:14: No one really explained the gospel to me, and people celebrated my decision, but there really wasn't much more than that.
15:24: So I went for a number of years believing myself to be saved, but really struggling with just the security of persevering in the faith.
15:37: It actually wasn't until I was in high school that I got involved in the Fellowship of Christian Athletes, and that is where a group of people began to disciple me.
15:51: I thought they were discipling me. I learned to read the scripture and to pray and have a walk with God, and through the course of that, over about a two -year period,
16:02: I came to the realization that this was not a recommitment to Christ. This is what real salvation looked like.
16:11: Christ really just captured my heart, and my life has never been the same since.
16:19: This was actually the same period that God began calling me to the ministry. I began speaking for the
16:27: Fellowship of Christian Athletes. That is how I came to know the
16:32: Lord. I understand it much better in hindsight than I did when it happened, but that true conversion experience didn't actually occur until my teenage years.
16:45: And so this had a profound effect on your theology and your
16:51: Christian life, this discovery of what has been called the doctrines of sovereign grace,
16:59: God's authority and control over all things. Is this something that is a hallmark of the church there in Jackson, Tennessee?
17:12: You know, I wouldn't say that Baptists are less defined by the doctrines of grace than some of our
17:20: Presbyterian friends. I would say that we celebrate the doctrines of grace and God's sovereignty, but it might not be the identifying marker.
17:33: I think Baptists as a whole are usually more identified by their rich emphasis on missions and things of that nature.
17:44: It has certainly shaped my life in terms of understanding that the
17:49: Lord really set me aside for not only salvation, but for ministry.
17:56: Believing that God quickened my heart and made me alive toward Him as a gift is something that impacts the way we share the gospel and the way we do missions.
18:13: But I would say that in the Baptist tradition, people may not articulate that quite as well as some other traditions.
18:24: Well, this book of yours I'm sure is going to find a treasured place in the homes and lives of our listeners and others who are experiencing painful trials in their life.
18:44: And the trial that really gave birth to this book of yours is the fact that your three -year -old son, well he was three at the time, was diagnosed with leukemia.
18:56: Tell us about that, your young three -year -old son
19:01: Carson, how and why you discovered this very terrifying disease to be present in your son's life.
19:14: Was it just a routine checkup or were there symptoms? Tell us about it from the very beginning.
19:20: Well, I'm happy to do that. And even before doing that, let me just say this is one of the reasons why I love
19:26: Ron McKinney, who you mentioned earlier. In light of God's providence over my life, he put me in a car at the airport with Ron McKinney years before I even had children.
19:42: And I was coming back from a mission trip and we ended up being transported from the airport together with a few other pastors.
19:51: And Ron told us that day the remarkable story of his daughter
19:57: Heidi's battle with cancer and how she was treated at St. Jude Hospital in Memphis, Tennessee.
20:04: I never dreamed that one day I would follow a similar path and that my son would walk a similar road.
20:12: But let's say God used Ron to encourage me throughout the process.
20:19: He even providentially put us in an airport transport in Memphis when his daughter came to town for a checkup of her own at St.
20:30: Jude. And so this dear brother has really encouraged me a lot and I'm honored to know him.
20:38: Going back to Carson's diagnosis, he was just three years old.
20:44: He was two weeks shy of turning four when we found out. We had been on a family vacation and we were returning home and he was a bit lethargic,
20:56: Chris. He just didn't have the energy that a young child would.
21:03: And so we were concerned about that, thought maybe he just had a virus of some sort. The previous month he had some swelling in his lymph nodes and I would even describe most as pump knots on his head.
21:18: If he felt behind his ears there were little knots. But the doctors did blood work and they reassured us that everything was fine and he was probably just an infection of some sort.
21:30: And so they treated him accordingly and all the swelling went away and we thought everything was fine.
21:37: But on this particular vacation he also developed a bright red rash under his chin down to his collarbone and it was smooth to the touch.
21:50: I now know that that's called petechiae, which is blood pushing through the skin.
21:57: And all of that to say, when we got back from vacation the next morning was
22:02: Sunday morning and my wife, as I was preparing to go to church to preach, said,
22:10: I'm really concerned about Carson. I think I need to take him to the doctor while you are at church.
22:16: And so that's what she did. And before that service was finished they were doing blood work.
22:23: She was alarmed. And so as soon as I ended the service I rushed to the doctor's office and within a few hours we were given word that he had leukemia.
22:37: And again you just think about how God pieces the details of your life together. The physician that diagnosed him was a pediatrician who had walked with another child through leukemia about 10 years before.
22:53: So she knew the signs to look for. She even had connections at St. Jude Hospital in Memphis, Tennessee.
23:00: And God really used her not only to diagnose but to help prescribe the right treatment plan for my son.
23:08: But that was a whirlwind kind of day. That was about two in the afternoon when we found out about 10 o 'clock that night
23:17: Carson was in a bed at St. Jude Hospital in Memphis, which was about six hours from where we were living at the time.
23:26: And how long ago was this? This was in 2011. He was treated from 2011 to 2014.
23:36: Today Carson is 13 years old. He'll start the seventh grade this school year.
23:45: And he's a picture of hell. You would never know that he walked through this terrible time in his life if you were to see him today.
23:55: Well, I think one of the very first things that we should discuss is your counsel as somebody who's not only a pastor and a shepherd, an under -shepherd of God's people, but somebody who has walked the road of being the parent of a child with a deathly or deadly illness.
24:24: Tell us about your counsel for those of our listeners who may be hearing this show, and they may be in the very fresh stage of discovering that they have a child who has a very serious debilitating or deadly illness.
24:45: And it might even be a spouse. It might even be themselves.
24:52: But the initial stages, the initial things that you would counsel our listeners to hear in regard to preparing them to respond for such a thing?
25:05: Yeah, well, there are a number of things I would suggest, Chris. First of all,
25:11: I would just say that we need to understand there is a difference between what we know cognitively about the
25:20: Lord and what we live experientially with the Lord. And what
25:27: I mean by that is, Parson's Cancer was really a gift from God in so many ways.
25:35: But one of those ways was it helped me to test everything that I'd ever believed or ever preached.
25:44: And not to say that I was doubting those things. I was not. We were in a very good place in ministry and in our lives.
25:51: But what I found was everything that I'd ever believed or taught was true, and that God truly was faithful to comfort us and give us peace and to bear our burdens.
26:08: And you really can't fully appreciate things like that until you walk through a difficulty.
26:15: And so, number one, I would just encourage people that when it seems like God is most absent,
26:21: He often is the most active in our lives. He's doing things that we can't fully appreciate or understand until we have the benefit of hindsight.
26:34: And that proved to be true in my life. I would also say that things are never as good as they seem, and things are really never as bad as they seem.
26:50: And a lot of times what I think is important is for us to step back and give
26:56: God time to work in a situation where we receive devastating news.
27:05: And then the third thing I would say is, you know, you really need to give yourself permission to be honest before the
27:13: Lord. I had some very ungodly thoughts the day my son was diagnosed with cancer.
27:20: Things that I've had to ask God to forgive me for. And yet at the same time, the
27:28: Lord, I think, deepened my relationship with Him because of that.
27:34: It really is an opportunity to take off your religious masks and to walk with the
27:40: Lord in a raw way when things like this come into our lives.
27:46: And ultimately, our kids belong to the Lord. He loves them more than we do. And I think that we have to trust that His plan for them is best.
27:56: And you rely on that, and you rest in that, and you just have to give the
28:04: Lord room to work. Well, we have to go to our first break right now.
28:10: If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, again, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.
28:18: chrisarnson at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the
28:25: USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. Don't go away.
28:31: We'll be right back with Adam Dooley, and hope when life unravels, finding
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32:06: Good to be back, Chris. I always enjoy our time. You have to say you're one of the better interviewers out there and I've been doing this for 30, more than 30 years.
32:16: Wow, that's some compliment. How much do I owe you for that? You don't have to owe me anything.
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34:01: Sovereign Lord, God, Savior, and King Jesus Christ today and always.
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35:30: In Psalm 139 verse 14, the psalmist offers praise to the Lord like this,
35:35: I praise you because I'm fearfully and wonderfully made and wondrous are your works that my soul knows very well.
35:42: He saw God's goodness and mercy, kindness, and the beauty in what
35:48: God has designed and he has erupted into praise. In any crisis or problem, brothers and sisters, our only fallback position is to trust
35:57: God's design. And once we do, there is nothing for us to do but to erupt in praise to him.
36:04: When the whole world is searching for a solution, God in his infinite mercy has given us what we need to address this which can be very serious.
36:14: Such is the beauty of his design. Knowing that design, how can we not add up in praise to our great
36:20: God like the psalmist did. May God bless you and give all of us wisdom to see greater things in his design.
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36:49: Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corham, Long Island, New York, pastored by Rich Jensen and Christopher McDowell.
36:56: It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God like the dear saints at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corham, who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in his holy word, and to enthusiastically proclaim
37:13: Christ Jesus the king and his doctrines of sovereign grace in Suffolk County, Long Island and beyond.
37:21: I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love as I have.
37:30: For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church go to hopereformedli .net.
37:36: That's hopereformedli .net or call 631 -696 -5711.
37:45: That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island, New York that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron.
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39:53: Go to nasbible .com, that's nasbible .com to place your order.
40:00: Welcome back, this is Chris Arnzen, if you just tuned us in. Our guest for the full two hours today is
40:06: Adam B. Dooley, and he is author of Hope When Life Unravels, Finding God When It Hurts.
40:13: Our email address, if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, is chrisarnzen at gmail .com,
40:20: chrisarnzen at gmail .com, c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com.
40:26: And as always, give us your first name, at least your city and state of residence, and your country of residence, if you live outside the
40:35: USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.
40:43: And before I return to the discussion, I just want to read an endorsement for this book by one of my favorite authors and preachers,
40:53: Dr. Erwin Lutzer, who is Pastor Emeritus at Moody Church in Chicago, Illinois.
40:59: In fact, I'm very excited that Dr. Lutzer will be my guest very soon for the very first time to discuss his book,
41:10: When a Nation Forgets God, Seven Lessons We Must Learn from Nazi Germany. He was supposed to be on, or ready to discuss that book, but I believe it was the very next day after I was rushed to the hospital in early
41:22: July with congestive heart failure that Dr. Lutzer was scheduled to be on, so we have to reschedule his interview, and I will keep you updated on that.
41:34: But Dr. Lutzer says, Suffering comes to us in many ways, and if we respond to it correctly, it always results in spiritual fruit.
41:44: In this personalized account of his own suffering when his son was diagnosed with leukemia, Adam Dooley shows us the relevance of Scripture's promise for us today.
41:56: Here is help for those who suffer and wonder whether God can be trusted in the dark night of the soul.
42:03: As I said, that was Erwin Lutzer. Well, you had mentioned in the beginning of the program that some of your initial thoughts, some of your initial things, possibly even verbally spoken out loud,
42:21: I don't know about that, but you did at least think things that you later had to repent for, and one of the reasons why
42:34: I think it's valuable that you were honest enough to say that is that there are many people who may beat themselves up for years, if not decades, after thinking things that are untrue, accusations against God that are untrue, perhaps even things that are blasphemous, but God can bring about true repentance and restoration over those things.
42:59: If you could just mention some of that to our listeners who might have gone through a season, perhaps they're still going through a season, of thinking wrongly about God, and they need to be brought to repentance over this for the first time, but also to encourage those that they need not torture themselves over things.
43:18: If they come to repentance to the cross, they can know that they are forgiven.
43:24: Sure. Well, you know, there are a number of things, but the one that I would mention, Chris, is that I think early on, my view of this trial in the life of my family would have been similar to the friends of Job.
43:41: One of the things I do in the book is just trace some of the lessons we learn from the book of Job and lay them over our experience.
43:51: But basically, my idea was that good people, righteous people, don't suffer as much as ungodly people.
44:05: For me, that meant my attitude toward the
44:10: Lord was, hey, I'm a pastor. I'm serving you, God.
44:15: I'm pointing other people to you. Why would this happen to us?
44:21: And that's not the question why that is sinful. It's interesting if you trace through the book of Job at least 20 different times, he explicitly or implicitly asks the
44:37: Lord why. And really, he's never rebuked for the question.
44:43: Now, where Job crosses the line is he demands an answer. I tell people it is permissible to ask
44:52: God why. It is not permissible to demand an answer or to chasten the
44:58: Lord when you don't like the answer. So, you know, for me, it was this attitude that I couldn't understand why this was happening because someone as righteous as me did not deserve this.
45:14: And in that moment of weakness, I forgot that outside of the
45:20: Lord Jesus, I don't deserve anything. And in the Lord Jesus, all that I deserve is rooted in Him.
45:28: And so I really, really struggled with that in my heart and in my mind, even though cognitively,
45:36: I knew that it was wrong. And that's exactly what you see Job's friends doing. They come to him and they say, essentially, righteous people don't suffer the way you're suffering,
45:47: Job. Therefore, there must be unrighteousness or sin in your life. And so my logic was the opposite.
45:55: There's no sin in my life, so I don't deserve this. And God was very patient and gracious with me.
46:02: And that's what I would say to your listeners. I think the Lord is patient and is gracious.
46:09: He's long -suffering toward us in this regard because this is part of what it means for the
46:17: Lord to bear the heavy yoke of our burdens. He understands that we say things that we regret and He is quick to forgive and He is gracious to forgive us.
46:32: If we press into that and can begin to appreciate and understand that Christ is our real reward, it's not what
46:44: He does for us in this life. He is the reward
46:49: Himself. And so those things get cloudy when we're hurting and God really had to deal with me about that.
46:57: And by His grace, I was able to reach a point where I understood that, again, my son belongs to Him.
47:05: It's not up for me to decide if He lives or even if He dies.
47:12: It's a gift from God that I even get to be His father. And so to chasten the
47:19: Lord when anything threatens that is out of bounds. And I think that that's true about a lot of the trials that we face.
47:27: We begin to see ourselves as entitled to a life of comfort or ease, and the
47:34: Scripture just does not teach that. Well, many folks who are outside of the doctrines of God's sovereignty, they accuse us who very strongly believe in the sovereignty of God of making
47:54: God the author of evil and making God the blame for horrible and wicked and painful things that occur in life.
48:10: How can one escape those charges or refute them in the midst of knowing that God is in control over everything?
48:21: And to put it in another way, the way you headed one of your chapters, who's really to blame for our suffering?
48:28: Right. Well, I think the key to understanding that whole issue correctly is to understand that all suffering, every trial, can be traced back to the fall in the
48:46: Garden of Eden. And that's important because even though it may not be that there is a personal sin that is causing me pain in my life, even if that's not true, it is true that sin in general is why there is pain, not just in my life but in the world.
49:08: It's why there is suffering in the world. And it can all be traced back to Genesis chapter 3.
49:16: That is so pivotal for not only pushing back in that argument that you mentioned, but for understanding that God is not our enemy when life begins to unravel.
49:29: In fact, He is the only hope that we have in a world that is broken.
49:36: Immediately in Genesis chapter 3, the ground is cursed and the serpent is cursed, and marriage is strained, and we bear children in pain, and work becomes burdensome.
49:56: These are all the results of the fall. And God, in His sovereignty, is able to enter into those consequences and even use those consequences to bring about His good work and pleasure.
50:14: But that doesn't mean He's responsible for them. He's sovereign over them, but He's not responsible for them.
50:22: I think about Martin Luther's description of Satan. In fact,
50:29: I just preached this Sunday here at our church. I was in Job chapter 2 when Satan goes before the throne of God and requests permission to afflict
50:39: Job. And one of the things that I pointed out to our people was that it was
50:45: God who allowed and even orchestrated the suffering of Job in order to demonstrate that he was worthy of worship and that he was so glorious that Job would not curse him.
51:00: It's really an accusation about God that Satan makes, not about Job. And so God allowed that.
51:09: God even orchestrated that. Satan was the instrument of that, but Martin Luther said he is
51:17: God's devil. And I think that's what we need to understand.
51:24: There's great hope that our trials are caused by sin, but they are still
51:30: God's trials for our lives. God orchestrates them in ways to bring about salvation for the lost and sanctification for those who know
51:40: Him. And rather than see this broken world as one accidental tragedy after another, we can appreciate the fact that no,
51:54: God is using hard, painful things. I call it the dark side of God's love.
52:01: It's hard providence. But He uses that to accomplish
52:06: His good purposes. And that's necessary because our world is broken.
52:12: If you take that away, we just live in a broken world without any hope whatsoever.
52:19: Yes, and there are folks that probably shudder at the mere mention or insinuation.
52:29: They shudder with horror, perhaps disgust and anger, in our declaring that there is a dark side of God's love.
52:38: Some would say that can never be, but in order for them to say that logically, they must never have had a concept of what makes a truly loving parent, for instance.
52:52: I mean, there's even a dark side of the love of parents. There is a disciplined side. There is a side that involves righteous indignation, not cruelty, not viciousness, not dictatorial behavior on the part of parents.
53:10: But there is a dark side nonetheless. And of course, that is a very evident side of God's love and God's character throughout both the
53:21: Old and New Testaments. Well, and think about the alternative here. Because the one thing that's not debatable is that there is pain and suffering in the world.
53:32: All you have to do is look around to see that. So either there is a dark side to God's love, and he is able to use pain for good purposes and accomplish his will, or he is anemic and weak and just as surprised by these things as we are.
53:52: In fact, that's where we have to pick up where you left off when we return from our middle break.
53:58: This is unfortunately a longer break than normal, folks, because every day during the middle of our show,
54:05: Bracelife Radio, 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us a longer break in the middle of the show because they have to localize
54:12: Iron Sharp and Zion Radio to Lake City, Florida, according to FCC regulations. They air this program twice daily in a pre -recorded format.
54:20: So please use this time wisely. Write down as much of the information for as many of our advertisers as you can so that you can more frequently and successfully patronize them, which will hopefully,
54:30: God willing, result in them remaining our advertisers for a longer period of time.
54:37: And that would result, God willing, in us remaining on the air for a longer period of time because we absolutely positively rely upon our advertisers' financial support in order to exist.
54:50: So please try to respond to our advertisers as much as you can and further ensure you will do that by writing down their information.
54:57: Also write down questions for our guest, Adam B. Dooley, on his book,
55:03: Hope When Life Unravels, and send them to chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com.
55:09: Don't go away. We'll be back after these messages from our sponsors with more of Adam Dooley and Hope When Life Unravels.
55:16: Don't go away. Was your business shut down during the
55:34: COVID -19 pandemic, depriving you of earning any money, causing you to default on your rent as you try to survive without income?
55:43: Maybe you've had to close your doors for good. The good news, you thought, was that you purchased business interruption insurance as a part of your business liability policy with a major insurance company who told you they are a good neighbor or that you would be in good hands.
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56:09: The pandemic exclusion? Since 2006, most insurance companies added this clause to enable them to deny your income loss claims in the event of a worldwide pandemic.
56:22: Do not give up. No matter what state you live in, call Buttafuoco & Associates now at 1 -800 -669 -4870.
56:33: Buttafuoco & Associates is a part of a large multi -district litigation, and they are working with lead counsel to bring what they believe will be a successful lawsuit for these claims.
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57:20: Call 1 -800 -669 -4870. Hi, this is
57:36: John Sampson, pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona, taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnson and the
57:43: Iron Sharpens Iron podcast. I consider Chris a true friend and man of high integrity. He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions while always defending the key doctrines of the
57:55: Christian faith. I've always been happy to point people to this podcast knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the internet where folk won't be led astray.
58:04: I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide. This is a day of great spiritual compromise, and yet God has raised
58:11: Chris up for just such a time. And knowing this, it's up to us as members of the body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances.
58:20: I'm pleased to do so, and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting
58:26: Iron Sharpens Iron financially. Would you consider sending either a one -time gift or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry?
58:34: I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would. All the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com
58:41: where you can click support. That's ironsharpensironradio .com. As host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.
59:05: The church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey, pastored by Alan Dunn.
59:15: Grace Covenant Baptist Church believes it's God's prerogative to determine how he shall be worshiped and how he shall be represented in the world.
59:23: They believe churches need to turn to the Bible to discover what to include in worship and how to worship
59:29: God in spirit and truth. Grace Covenant Baptist Church endeavors to maintain a
59:34: God -centered focus, reading, preaching, and hearing the Word of God, singing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs.
59:41: Baptism and communion are the scriptural elements of their corporate worship, performed with faith, joy, and sobriety.
59:49: Discover more about Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey at gcbcnj .squarespace
59:57: .com. That's gcbcnj .squarespace .com
01:00:04: or call them at 908 -996 -7654. That's 908 -996 -7654.
01:00:14: Tell Pastor Dunn that you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Every day at thousands of community centers, high schools, middle schools, juvenile institutions, coffee shops, and local hangouts,
01:00:41: Long Island Youth for Christ, staff and volunteers meet with young people who need Jesus. We are rural and urban and we are always about the message of Jesus.
01:00:49: Our mission is to have a noticeable spiritual impact on Long Island, New York by engaging young people in the lifelong journey of following Christ.
01:00:58: Long Island Youth for Christ has been a stalwart bedrock ministry since 1959. We have a world -class staff and a proven track record of bringing consistent love and encouragement to youths in need all over the country and around the world.
01:01:12: Help honor our history by becoming a part of our future. Volunteer, donate, pray, or all of the above.
01:01:19: For details call Long Island Youth for Christ at 631 -385 -8333.
01:01:25: That's 631 -385 -8333 or visit liyfc .org.
01:01:35: That's liyfc .org. Iron Sharpens Iron welcomes
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01:02:56: Linbrook Baptist Church on 225 Earl Avenue in Linbrook, Long Island is teaching God's timeless truths in the 21st century.
01:03:04: Our church is far more than a Sunday worship service. It's a place of learning where the scriptures are studied and the preaching of the gospel is clear and relevant.
01:03:11: It's like a gym where one can exercise their faith through community involvement. It's like a hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate people and healing.
01:03:18: We're a diverse family of all ages. Enthusiastically serving our Lord Jesus Christ in fellowship, play, and together.
01:03:25: Hi, I'm Pastor Bob Walderman and I invite you to come and join us here at Linbrook Baptist Church and see all that a church can be.
01:03:31: Call Linbrook Baptist at 516 -599 -9402. That's 516 -599 -9402 or visit linbrookbaptist .org.
01:03:41: That's linbrookbaptist .org. Chris Arnsen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, announcing a new website with an exciting offer from World Magazine, my trusted source for news from a
01:03:55: Christian perspective. Try World Now at no charge for 90 days by going to getworldnow .com.
01:04:04: That's getworldnow .com. I rely on World because I trust the reporting. I gain insight from the analysis and World provides clarity to the news stories that really matter.
01:04:15: I believe you'll also find World to be an invaluable resource to better understand critical topics with a depth that's simply not found in other media outlets.
01:04:23: Armed with this coverage, World can help you to be a voice of wisdom in your family and your community.
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01:04:45: today. Also check out World News Group's podcast, The World and Everything in It, at wng .org
01:04:53: forward slash podcast. That's W for World, N for News, G for Group, dot org forward slash podcast.
01:05:10: James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries and the Dividing Line webcast here. Although God has brought me all over the globe for many years to teach, preach, and debate at numerous venues, some of my very fondest memories are from those precious times of fellowship with Pastor Rich Jensen and the brethren at Hope Reform Baptist Church, now located at their new beautiful facilities in Corham, Long Island, New York.
01:05:32: I've had the privilege of opening God's Word from their pulpit on many occasions, have led youth retreats for them, and have always been thrilled to see their members filling many seats at my
01:05:41: New York debates. I do not hesitate to highly recommend Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island to anyone who wants to be accurately taught, discipled, and edified by the
01:05:51: Holy Scriptures, and to be surrounded by truly loving and caring brothers and sisters in Christ.
01:05:56: I also want to congratulate Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham for their recent appointment of Pastor Rich Jensen's co -elder,
01:06:02: Pastor Christopher McDowell. For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net.
01:06:10: That's hopereformedli .net, or call 631 -696 -5711.
01:06:17: That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island that you heard about them from James White on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
01:06:30: When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the
01:06:36: New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the
01:06:44: Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the NASB.
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01:06:55: NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Rich Jensen of Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corham, New York, and the
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01:07:41: Church of Friendship in Hockley, Texas, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.
01:07:47: Here's a great way for your church to help keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air. Pastors, are your pew bibles tattered and falling apart?
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01:08:22: This is Pastor Bill Sousa, Grace Church at Franklin, here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.
01:08:28: Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support
01:08:33: Iron Sharpens Iron Radio financially. Grace Church at Franklin is an independent autonomous body of believers which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in scripture through the person and work of our
01:08:50: Lord Jesus Christ. And of course the end of which we strive is the glory of God.
01:08:56: If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe 10 minutes, or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some
01:09:10: Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior. Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin.
01:09:19: Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org. That's gracechurchatfranklin .org.
01:09:27: This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our
01:09:33: Sovereign Lord, God, Savior, and King, Jesus Christ, today and always.
01:09:46: Chris Sorensen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio here. I want to tell you about a man I have personally known for many years.
01:09:53: His name is Dan Buttafuoco. Dan has a personal injury and medical malpractice lawyer, but not the type that typically comes to mind.
01:10:01: Dan cares about people and is a theologian himself. Recently he wrote a book titled Consider the
01:10:07: Evidence for the Bible. Ravi Zacharias wrote the foreword. Dan also has a master's degree in theology.
01:10:14: Dan handles serious injury and medical malpractice cases in all 50 states. He represents many
01:10:20: Christians in serious injury matters all over the country. Dan is an exceptional trial lawyer.
01:10:27: He wrote the test for the National Board of Trial Advocacy, and currently his firm has over 100 cases that have settled for $1 million or more, and in approximately 10 different states.
01:10:40: In Illinois, his lawyers had the fourth largest settlement in the state's history. In New York, his case involving a paralyzed police officer made the front page of the
01:10:50: Law Journal. If you have a serious personal injury or medical malpractice claim in any state,
01:10:57: I recommend that you call Dan. Consultations are free. There is no fee unless you win.
01:11:03: Dan Buttafuoco's number is 1 -800 -669 -4878. 1 -800 -669 -4878.
01:11:11: Or email me for Dan's contact information at chrisarnson at gmail .com.
01:11:17: That's chrisarnson at gmail .com. Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said,
01:11:29: Give yourself unto reading. The man who never reads will never be read. He who never quotes will never be quoted.
01:11:37: He who will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves that he has no brains of his own.
01:11:42: You need to read. We invite you to go treasure hunting at solid -ground -books .com.
01:12:14: That's solid -ground -books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past or present you can unearth from Solid Ground.
01:12:23: Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. And don't forget folks that whenever you are considering purchasing a gift for those whom you love, please make your first stop to solid -ground -books .com,
01:12:42: solid -ground -books .com for the finest in Christian literature from the past and the present.
01:12:48: They are a valuable, a vital, a premier sponsor of this program and I doubt seriously we could exist maintaining this program apart from a miracle from God should they cease to advertise with us.
01:13:04: So please consider them your number one source for all your gift -giving and Christian literature needs.
01:13:12: That's solid -ground -books .com, solid -ground -books .com whether it be for birthday presents, whether it be for wedding anniversaries, whether it be for back -to -school gifts, whether it be for retirement gifts, whether it be for bereavement gifts, whatever the occasion or person may be, whether they are
01:13:36: Christian or not, please go to solid -ground -books .com, solid -ground -books .com.
01:13:43: It might even be more important to buy your unsaved loved ones gifts from Solid Ground Christian Books because a book that you give them, or books plural that you give them, may be used of God to lead them to an eternal life in Christ.
01:13:59: That's solid -ground -books .com, solid -ground -books .com. Always mention that you heard about them from Chris Arnson on Iron Trump and Zion Radio.
01:14:07: Before we return to our guest today, Adam B. Dooley and our discussion on his book,
01:14:13: Hope When Life Unravels, Finding God When It Hurts, we just have some important announcements to make.
01:14:19: Tomorrow on Iron Trump and Zion Radio, Phil Johnson, the executive director of John MacArthur's media ministry,
01:14:26: Grace to You, returns to this program. He's going to be discussing the decision of Dr.
01:14:35: MacArthur and the leaders of Grace Community Church in Sun Valley, California, to resist the demands or even defy the demands of the governor of California who is requiring that churches once again shut down and not be open to the public gatherings that they are accustomed to, at least ones as large as those found at Grace Community Church.
01:15:09: And they, starting last Lord's Day, I believe it was, made sure that they reopened and the sanctuary has been filled with thousands again, and they are sticking to their guns and their commitment to this.
01:15:24: And Phil Johnson will be discussing this very highly debated topic in the body of Christ on where do we draw the line when the governing authorities are insisting that we do something that we believe is violating our conscience.
01:15:42: So that will be tomorrow. Then the following day, another brother in Christ who is affiliated with John MacArthur's Grace to You ministry,
01:15:52: Darrell Bernard Harrison, he is returning to Iron Trump and Zion Radio. He co -hosts a podcast along with Virgil Walker called
01:16:02: Just Thinking. That website, by the way, is justthinking .me, justthinking .me.
01:16:08: And they are going to be discussing a Christian response to Black Lives Matter and other things that we have been witnessing in the news the last several months that are horrifying many of us.
01:16:22: And they are going to be giving a balanced biblical view as not only people who are thoroughly committed to sound doctrine and thoroughly knowledgeable of the scriptures, that's first and foremost, but they are also black brothers in Christ, so they do have a unique perspective when addressing things like this.
01:16:45: That will be Wednesday on Iron Trump and Zion Radio. And on Thursday, as I mentioned before, Dr. Ron McKinney, who's a mutual friend of myself and my guest today,
01:16:56: Adam B. Dooley, Dr. Ron McKinney, pastor of Kinsey Drive Baptist Church in Dalton, Georgia.
01:17:04: He is going to be discussing the doctrine of adoption. He was listening when
01:17:09: I made that announcement earlier for him to clarify what the theme would be tomorrow.
01:17:15: I mean, Thursday, I'm sorry. And sure enough, I did get a response from him saying that we will discuss the doctrine of adoption.
01:17:25: And there are guests lined up for every day over the next several weeks, so please try to tune in every day to Iron Trump and Zion Radio.
01:17:34: Last but not least, folks, if you love this show and you don't want it to disappear from the airwaves, please go to irontrumpandzionradio .com,
01:17:43: click support, then click click to donate now. We are really having a hard time financially again because of the fact that our two largest financial supporters have temporarily,
01:17:57: I'm hoping it's just temporary, but they have postponed any further giving to Iron Trump and Zion Radio because their businesses have been so negatively impacted by the hysteria associated with the coronavirus pandemic.
01:18:11: So please help us make up for that lost income. We are running dry of the funds that many of you have generously sent in as donations in weeks past and months past.
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01:20:15: I can help you find a church no matter where in the world you live. I have lists of biblically -faithful churches all over the world, and have helped many people in our audience find churches near them that they didn't even know existed.
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01:21:08: Adam B. Dooley on hope when life unravels, finding
01:21:14: God when it hurts. It's chrisarnsen at gmail .com, chrisarnsen at gmail .com.
01:21:22: We have a question from John in Bangor, Maine, who asks, How do you reply to someone who says to you, when you try to give them biblical counsel and love, that they are accusing you of not having any knowledge or wisdom or discernment in the area that is causing them pain because you yourself have never experienced it?
01:21:48: Well, that can be tough, and I do believe that we ought to possess a certain amount of humility when we step into people's trials and problems that we've never experienced.
01:22:05: I think the reality is God uses hardship in order to make us more open to biblical truth.
01:22:19: So we certainly would never want to compromise biblical truth, but we are not infallible in determining when people are ready for biblical truth.
01:22:32: And so one of the things that I have found is that sometimes it's best not to say everything you know.
01:22:40: Sometimes it's best to even stay silent. You know the old adage that people don't really care what you know until they know how much you care.
01:22:52: I think that has probably been used excessively because there are times that we are called to speak regardless of the response, but if you have a relationship with someone, there is certainly no shame in just having a ministry of presence with them and not saying everything you know in one setting.
01:23:18: Yeah, you mentioned Job's friends so -called earlier, and it would have been better for them to have kept their mouths shut for most of the time.
01:23:26: That's right. In fact, at the end of chapter two, when they show up for the first time, it's really the only thing they do right.
01:23:33: They just sit with Job for an extended period of time before they speak, and it's when they speak that they begin to even,
01:23:44: I would go as far as say, inflict additional harm to Job. And so I think we have to trust the
01:23:51: Holy Spirit to help us know what to say and when to say it, and just because a person isn't ready to receive a particular truth in a moment doesn't mean that they won't be.
01:24:03: In fact, the entire purpose of the trial may very well be that before it's over,
01:24:10: God brings them to that point. But we're not infallible in that, and we don't need to pick up that mantle and add that pressure to ourselves as we interact with others.
01:24:23: Thank you, John. Please make sure you give us your full mailing address in Bangor, Maine, because you have won, by virtue of sending us a question today, a free copy of Hope When Life Unravels, Finding God When It Hurts, thanks to our friends at Zondervan Books for their generosity, and specifically
01:24:43: Tiffany Sawyer, who works there, who is most often our go -to gal over there at Zondervan, who gets us the books by authors they publish.
01:24:55: We have Susan Margaret in Dauphin County, Pennsylvania, and she says, when you are sitting next to someone holding their hand and perhaps weeping with them over a tragedy in their lives, should we ever bring up the sin that may be involved in the predicaments that they find themselves in?
01:25:24: Well, again, I think this is similar to the previous question. As a general rule,
01:25:30: I would say no. I do think there are exceptions to that. I think there are relationships where we can speak into those things when there is mutual knowledge of things.
01:25:45: But as a general rule, I would just say again, God uses trials for the purpose of our sanctification, and we do not have to play the role of the
01:25:56: Holy Spirit. If a person is suffering because of their personal sin, the
01:26:04: Spirit has a way of convicting them. The other side of that coin is, because we aren't the
01:26:11: Holy Spirit, we cannot know for sure that that's why a trial has come.
01:26:17: Even if we are aware of sin in a person's life, we can't be dogmatic that that is why they are facing a trial.
01:26:26: So we really run the risk of behaving like jokes, friends, when we speak authoritatively about that.
01:26:34: I would just encourage people, again, don't pick up that burden. That isn't your responsibility.
01:26:42: If it's true that God is our only hope when bad things happen, we can trust
01:26:48: Him to chasten for the purpose that He has designed, to convict at the time that He needs to convict, and so forth.
01:26:59: It is far better to respond to a person who is convicted because of their sin and do so in agreement that, yes, your sin could very well have contributed to this particular trial.
01:27:15: That's much more effective than planting that idea in their mind because, again, we want people to run to the
01:27:21: Lord, not away from the Lord in situations like that. Now, would there be exceptions?
01:27:29: Of course, this might not be the first thing that you say or do on the first day of being in the presence of someone to comfort them, but let's say you have a friend or a family member who is an unrepentant homosexual and they're dying of AIDS.
01:27:46: Obviously, I would think that you would agree with me that the issue of their repentance does not need to be hidden from the conversation.
01:27:56: It should eventually be a very primary thing in your evangelism towards them. Now, obviously, you would probably handle the situation differently if the person had been an unrepentant homosexual in their previous life before coming to Christ, and that's a different issue.
01:28:15: But, I mean, if somebody is in the midst, and, of course, I'm not just picking on that particular sin.
01:28:21: You could be a heterosexual adulterer and dying from something related to that.
01:28:27: You could be an alcoholic, as I was a drunkard and was thankfully delivered by the grace and mercy of Christ from my own drunkenness.
01:28:38: There are people who might be dying of liver ailments, heart ailments, because of things like this that are the more obvious things that have brought trials into their lives rather than things that, like you were saying, not everything has a clear issue that we could declare as a cause or a reason.
01:29:01: Well, I would say two things here. Number one, it's never wrong to share the gospel.
01:29:07: I would be willing to share the gospel with anyone in any setting, and it may very well be that the particular things that they need to repent of have wreaked havoc in their lives, and sharing the gospel is going to bring a sense of guilt to that.
01:29:27: It's never wrong to share the gospel. But the second thing I would say is there is a difference in someone who's living in blatant sin and they seek you out for counsel.
01:29:41: Let me give you a pastoral example of that. I have had people in my office who are serial adulterers, and their lives fall apart.
01:29:52: They begin searching for answers, and they come to me, and they say things like, it seems like God is against me, and everything
01:30:00: I do ends in disaster. Why is God punishing me?
01:30:06: Well, in those moments, you can be certain I'm going to say, well, why wouldn't
01:30:12: God punish you when you are living in such blatant sin? How can you shake your fist at God one day and then come to God for relief the next?
01:30:25: So context is really, really important. But I think in situations where tragedy strikes in the moment that it comes, that's not the time to eloquently parse the reasons behind everything that is happening, because we are fallible, and we often interpret things incorrectly.
01:30:49: And even when we're correct, I think that the breadth of all that God is doing is often lost on us, and it is better to remain silent in those cases.
01:31:03: And thank you, Susan Margaret. You have also won a free copy of Hope When Life Unravels by our guest today,
01:31:11: Adam B. Dooley. So make sure you give us your full mailing address in Dauphin County, Pennsylvania, so that CVBBS, Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, can ship that out to you.
01:31:22: And we thank them, and we also thank again our friends at Zonervan for their gift of these books.
01:31:30: You have another chapter that is a vital thing to discuss whenever a conversation on this comes up.
01:31:44: There is a saying that has become popular in Christendom that I've heard some
01:31:52: Christians challenge, especially the way that it is exactly the way that it is worded, that God will never give you more than you can bear.
01:32:01: But is that true? Well, I don't believe that's true.
01:32:07: I think God often gives us more than we can bear, precisely because He has every intention of bearing it for us.
01:32:19: You know, when Jesus says there in Matthew chapter 11 that we're to come unto Him if we bear heavy burdens, and He will give us rest, well, you can't know that.
01:32:32: You can understand that, but you cannot truly know that at an experiential level until God bears your burdens.
01:32:43: What we often want in Americanized Christianity is a
01:32:50: God who props us up and makes us stronger.
01:32:57: But the biblical portrait of God is that we are weak, we are fallen, and God is our strong tower that we are to run to.
01:33:09: And so I think some of the, I call it Hallmark Christianity, some of the one -liners that people like to throw out, they're really not helpful.
01:33:19: In fact, when Carson had leukemia, the statement, well,
01:33:24: Pastor, you know God will never put more on you than you can bear, I heard it so much it began to anger me.
01:33:32: And that's why I put it in the book. It runs counter to what the Scripture teaches about the comfort we experience that comes directly from the
01:33:43: Lord. It's a lifeline when we face trials, and we should not diminish that as if we're able to somehow bear our burdens alone.
01:33:54: Yeah, another Christian slogan that I really despise, and I've had to have an uncomfortable situation of having to correct a guest or two on my show who have repeated it.
01:34:09: But the line that is very often, I don't think it's ever been proven, that Saint Francis of Assisi said this, but it's been often attributed to him, preach the gospel and if necessary use words.
01:34:23: That really gets my skin crawling because the way that it's phrased anyway is not what you are speaking about before, demonstrating love and silence to a person in pain.
01:34:37: This is more of the idea of you using the actual declaration of the gospel as the last resort, after just doing quote -quote lifestyle evangelism by showing people that you love
01:34:51: God just just and purely because of how you live, not because of what you actually believe and and so on.
01:35:01: And obviously if that were our way to imitate, if that was the way that Christ and his disciples of the first century and even centuries subsequent to that really believed that we should live, then there wouldn't be any martyrs.
01:35:21: I mean people who are doing wonderful things who are
01:35:26: Christians were not put to death, and there were multitudes of Christians put to death because they specifically declared something that offended those around them, especially those in power, even though they were doing wonderful things.
01:35:43: Well and frankly if you were capable of preaching the gospel without words, you would be capable of doing that which even
01:35:52: God has was unable to do. General revelation would be enough for salvation.
01:36:01: There would be no need for scripture if you could preach the gospel without words. But God's intention through general revelation was never that people could come to Christ as a result of that, but instead to point others to him and to leave all people without excuse.
01:36:20: But it's not until specific or particular revelation through the scripture comes that we're able to believe the gospel and to repent.
01:36:30: And I think the same thing is true about trials, and I appreciate the comment and clarification you made there.
01:36:36: When I talk about the ministry of presence and keeping your mouth shut for a season,
01:36:42: I'm not suggesting that anyone can go to heaven just because of the
01:36:50: Christian comfort that they receive from a brother or sister in Christ.
01:36:56: I'm merely suggesting that if we want to be most effective in declaring the gospel, there are times when we need to be silent.
01:37:08: There are times when people are far too emotional to receive an explicit gospel witness, and we have to be very discerning and let the
01:37:22: Holy Spirit guide us in making that decision. But there are times that we need to be silent to be more effective sharing the gospel later, but that doesn't mean that we don't ever share the gospel.
01:37:36: And we are going to our final break right now. It's going to be a lot more brief than the last two.
01:37:42: If you have a question, please send it in immediately because we're rapidly running out of time. Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.
01:37:51: As always, give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence if you live outside the
01:37:56: USA, and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. We'll be right back. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.
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01:48:38: This is Chris Arnzin, and this is the final 10 minutes or so of our discussion today with Adam B.
01:48:46: Dooley on his book, When Life Unravels, Finding God When It Hurts. And if you intend to join us on the air with a question of your own, please do so very quickly because we're rapidly running out of time.
01:48:59: Our email address is chrisarnzin at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.
01:49:06: Please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, your country of residence if you live outside the
01:49:13: USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. CJ in Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York, says,
01:49:21: Forgive me if I did not hear this brought up earlier as I am tuning in late, but I know that the
01:49:28: Word of Faith movement teaches a heresy that no matter what bad thing may happen to a
01:49:36: Christian, it is always because of their lack of faith. My problem is that this falsehood is not really only isolated in the
01:49:48: Word of Faith movement. I see sometimes your average Christian, even in non -Pentecostal or charismatic circles, thinking like this.
01:49:57: Do you agree with me that this is a much broader heresy than that only which is found in the
01:50:03: Word of Faith movement? Yeah, I do actually believe that it is a broader heresy and it is at best shallow and at worst,
01:50:15: I think, dangerous to the body of Christ. I actually have an entire chapter in my book where I talk about what
01:50:22: I call the most courageous faith, because this idea that if you have enough faith that you can do anything, be healed from anything, overcome anything, is completely false.
01:50:37: A true faith, biblical faith, courageous faith, is the faith to endure hardship and not necessarily to be set free from it.
01:50:48: Now granted, I understand that oftentimes God does answer our prayers and God does deliver us.
01:50:55: I have a son today who is cancer -free, and I praise
01:51:01: God for that, but God made us walk through three years of chemotherapy to get there.
01:51:10: He did not heal my son miraculously. He used doctors and nurses to do that.
01:51:17: I tell the story in the book of a beautiful young girl and a beautiful young boy who lost their battle with cancer.
01:51:27: And the fact of the matter is God was just as faithful to those families as he was to ours, and it's an insult to them to even suggest that their faith was somehow lacking.
01:51:42: These were godly believers who pleaded, just like I did, for the health of their children, and yet God's plan was different for them.
01:51:54: And so the faith to endure three years of chemotherapy, the faith to endure burying your daughter or your son, is the kind of faith that is truly courageous and most honoring to the
01:52:12: Lord. The bottom line is God is the one that determines the outcome of our trials.
01:52:18: We trust him in that, and we have faith that he's a good father who cares for us and provides for us and rewards us in eternity.
01:52:29: But beyond that, the name it, claim it gospel that we hear so much of today, it's really dangerous in my view.
01:52:40: We do have an anonymous listener who says that they are discouraged in their theologically reformed church because it seems as though prayers for healing are often discouraged during prayer meetings.
01:53:02: Other issues being deemed much more infinitely important, like the spread of the gospel, the planting of churches, and other things.
01:53:13: Whereas I believe that perhaps some really pollute a
01:53:19: Wednesday night prayer meeting with far too much prayer requests for insignificant or trivial health problems, at the same time
01:53:29: I think that the healing of those who are either terminally ill or very seriously gravely ill is a very important thing that demonstrates confidence that God can do anything.
01:53:43: What is your belief on this issue? Well, I agree with that last statement, and I would say if I am correct that the faith to endure hardship honors the
01:53:56: Lord, then we should certainly be praying for those who are gravely ill, certainly with the position that God can heal and we are right to ask him to heal, along with the reality that we trust
01:54:13: God if he does not heal. One of the things I talk about in the book,
01:54:19: Chris, is that Satan wants to defame the glory of God.
01:54:25: All of our lives is about the glory of God. His attack on Joe was about diminishing the glory of God, and it is very easy,
01:54:33: I think particularly in reform circles, to be very stoic and almost apathetic about those who are hurting because the common denominator is, well,
01:54:44: God's going to be glorified. Well, yes, God is going to be glorified, but I'll tell you, even though the attacks and the trials that we face may not be primarily about us, they still work powerfully against us.
01:55:03: It still hurts. It still causes a crisis of belief, and it really requires the comfort and endurance of the
01:55:13: Lord to face so much of what comes our way in a broken world, and not only is it permissible to pray about those things, but we should pray about those things.
01:55:25: If God uses trials as a sanctifying means in our lives, he is most glorified when we urgently and desperately pray about those things.
01:55:43: So the idea that we just passively agree, well, God's going to be glorified, we trust
01:55:50: God, there's much more important things than this. While it may be technically true, the reality is, if something so consumes a person's heart that they can't prioritize that which is most important in the kingdom of God, then by all means, those are things that we need to pray about and we need to give to the
01:56:13: Lord, and God is so gracious to meet us in those moments and I think to stoop to our level and to help us.
01:56:22: So yes, I agree. I would encourage you to pray for those who not only face great physical illness, but those who are enduring grave trials.
01:56:35: These are folks we need to pray for. And I'd like you to conclude with two to three minutes of what you most want etched in the program today.
01:56:49: Well, you know, there's so many lessons that God taught us, but I think the one that I would like to leave with your listeners that really has become such a treasure to me is that God really is enough.
01:57:06: The Lord is so good to us in what he provides and how he cares for us, but the real reward is
01:57:18: Christ himself, and sometimes we see that through the sunshine of happy days, but there are many times that we learn that through the darkness of difficult days, and the real question of Christianity is, do you believe that God, the person of his
01:57:42: Son, is enough? And when you do, it changes everything about how you live.
01:57:49: It changes everything about how you endure trials, and I would just encourage your listeners where I started.
01:57:59: When God seems absent, he is often the most active, and whatever is painful for you may turn out to be the greatest opportunity for you to experience the sufficiency of Christ in your life like never before.
01:58:16: Amen. Well, I already know, Adam, that I'd like to have you back to continue this same subject because there's a lot we only scratched the surface on during our discussion.
01:58:26: So if you hold on, I'd like to schedule you for another interview after we go off the air, but I want to remind our listeners that you could get this book through Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com.
01:58:39: C -V, which stands for Cumberland Valley, B -B -S for Bible Book Service dot com.
01:58:45: So I hope that you order a copy if you win one. In fact, even if you did win one, order copies for others by purchasing them at cvbbs .com.
01:58:55: And we want to thank Zondervan once again for providing us with our free giveaway copies today.
01:59:01: I want to thank Adam Dooley for doing such a wonderful job today on this program and a vital subject.
01:59:08: I want to thank once again, Dr. Ron McKinney for recommending to me that we interview
01:59:14: Adam today on Iron Trip and Zion Radio. And I hope that you all have a blessed remainder of your day.
01:59:22: Remember to keep in prayer the family of Dr. Latane C. Scott and also the
01:59:28: Hill family who operate the Timothy Hill Children's Ranch after their losses very recently of precious loved ones.
01:59:36: I hope you all always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far, far greater