Church Disunity & COVID-19 - A Pastoral Roundtable - GotQuestions.org Podcast Episode 62

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Welcome to the God Questions Podcast. One of the first episodes we recorded was about churches coming out of COVID, how churches were adjusting to coming out of the lockdown restrictions, adjusting to all the new realities they've had to face.

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This is kind of a part two to that, but obviously several months later, our topic today is primarily what is the cause of all the disunity we're seeing in churches related to pretty much all things

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COVID. I've had several good pastor friends tell me that they've never seen in their whole ministry experience godly mature believers landing on such opposite sides of the spectrum on COVID -related issues.

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So that's what we're going to be talking today, and I've got three friends of mine who are serving the Lord in pastoral ministry.

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Got Eric Cartier, he's the lead pastor at Rocky Mountain Calvary here in Colorado Springs. Al Pittman, the lead pastor at Calvary Worship Center, also here in Colorado Springs.

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Then Scott Owen, who is a longtime volunteer writer for God Questions Ministries, and also a church planner, interim pastor, and he serves in various roles related to church conflict resolutions.

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So gentlemen, welcome to the show. It's so good to have you. Now, let me say a quick story here just kind of illustrates some of the difficulties we had.

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The church I attend here in Colorado Springs, we had a men's retreat not too long ago, earlier in the fall, and we knew there'd be conflict if people started talking about COVID.

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We know there's people, this person is way onto the right, this person's way onto the left or whatever, and we didn't want to have to keep them away.

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So me and our lead pastor came up with an idea of creating what we called the COVID jar.

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It was sort of like a cuss jar in that if someone has a problem with cussing, anytime they cuss, they have to put some money in the cuss jar.

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Well, the COVID jar was anytime anyone talks about anything related to COVID, they've got to put a dollar in the

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COVID jar. So one of our missionaries got a nice gift after our men's retreat.

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I'll leave it at that. But this is the kind of thing we're facing in that such widely divergent opinions on these issues cause a lot of conflict, a lot of stress in churches.

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So the first question I want to ask the three of you, so seemingly godly and spiritually mature believers are taking strongly opposing viewpoints on virtually all things

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COVID related. Why is this? And Eric, why don't you lead us off? Well, the first thing that comes to mind for me is

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Satan's an opportunist. He loves to swim in murky water and COVID's really given him the opportunity to bring a division.

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So I think that in a lot of ways, Satan's been laughing at the body of Christ that he can get us to divide over these issues.

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I'm not real quick to warm up to the spiritual battle. Unfortunately, I tend to think of that last, but we know that Paul told us that we don't wrestle against flesh and blood.

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So I do think there's that spiritual component where the enemy's wanting us to divide over these issues.

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And I definitely have seen believers that I really love and know that they love the

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Lord take very opposing views. So instead of Christian love winning out, sometimes it seems that division is winning out.

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Yeah, I'm in total agreement with that. It is definitely spiritual warfare.

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And the scripture tells us that it's the things that are not seen that are really reality, things that are seen are temporal.

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And the things that aren't seen, like the virus and spiritual warfare, that really cause people to be divided.

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Unfortunately, even in the church sometimes, partly because I think that a personal opinion and that is in regards to maybe their constitutional rights and that type of thing.

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And then I think it gets into also personal conviction. People have certain convictions about certain things, and it just seems to be a lack of respect for different opinions.

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And as Eric said, a lack of harmony in unity as a result within the body of Christ, which is tragic.

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But that's, I think there's the conflict there because people have an exalted

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COVID, I believe, above Christ. There should be the centrality of Christ within the church.

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And what we have sometimes is centrality of COVID. And that's unfortunate and tragic.

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I've noticed that, quite frankly, people are getting their information from different places.

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And I think social media has had a way of ramping up things.

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Before people could have opinions and they would tend to talk in their circles. Now it seems that people will post and repost.

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And as a result, that sets them in a box as to really what their thoughts are.

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And then people start prejudging that. And as a result, they can be very adamant that that person is wrong and such.

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I also noticed that because of the way communication has come out in our country, some of the political stances that have been taken, that there's a lack of clarity of what actually we're dealing with.

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And as a result, Christians don't have the solid things that we're used to, the things that the scriptures talk clearly about or those items.

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And as a result, it's easy to get polarized on that based upon whether you're emphasizing your rights or whether you're emphasizing fear.

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And what I find is that people are kind of labeling people, either it's anti this or it's you're doing that.

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And as a result, people are reactive to that. And I think that there's a knowledge versus love, as you guys noted.

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And there's also a faith versus stewardship. And then, again, fear that comes into play.

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And I think fear can be on both sides. One might be a fear of being taken over or being taken advantage of, or a fear of what the disease is doing in and of itself.

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And these things have been very difficult for mature Christians to handle because they see their friends on one side or another, and it's caused a lot of division that way.

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For sure. So for question two, what, in your experience in the past nearly two years we've been all dealing with COVID, what damage have you seen that's been done to the church, whether it's your church specifically or to the church in general by all the

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COVID related division? I was in the midst of an interim right when the

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COVID hit and the shutdowns took place. So we were there for another 10 months and then another church for two months.

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And then we've actually ministered to 20 different churches in a variety of different facets in several different states.

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And some of the things that I'm seeing is that it's really affecting leadership teams.

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There have become some division amongst them. They have lost their, for example, maybe if it's a volunteer group, like some church had deacons, they might step down or pastors have been let go because of these differences of opinions or how things were carried out in regard to responding to certain mandates and things along that line.

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I also noticed that people have left churches to go to churches that better fit how they were reacting to COVID.

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And that as a result has done a little bit of shuffle in regard to some of the churches.

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Judgment of other people is at an all time high, labeling and just the lack is noted in the other question, the lack of love and patience and giving the benefit of the doubt to others.

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Yeah, I've just seen a lot of believers who are gripped with fear and no longer walking by faith, but they're gripped with fear.

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And of course, the Bible says without faith, we cannot please the Lord. And that fear has hindered their fellowship and negative impact

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I think it's had is that it's isolated people. There's some people and I saw statistics some time ago about the number.

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It was an alarming statistic. I forget the number, but a large percentage of people will not be returning to the church.

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And so the people have been isolated. They have been robbed of fellowship and they're walking in fear and not faith and thereby fear because we've demonized each other.

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I mean, you said you had an opinion, I had an opinion, but we still had fellowship in Christ.

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But when you demonize someone and you believe that what they're doing is of the devil, I mean, you know, that's tragic.

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But that's what fear gives birth to even in the church. So I've seen just a lack of faith and trust in the

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Lord. And of course, I'm always telling my people God has not given us a spirit of fear, but that of power and of love in a sound mind.

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Absolutely. You know, one thing that I think concerns me is just when

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COVID hit, church services went online. And I think that God really used that and is continuing to use that.

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And we're seeing a lot of people come to Christ through the online services. So online definitely has its place.

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And I think it's here to stay. But I've seen a shift where some have replaced going to church in person with online streaming services.

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And I think in the long run, that weakens the church because there's so much in the New Testament that describes one another and being in relationship with one another.

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So we're fully committed to the online ministry. But we hope that it's a bridge that brings people into local churches, to RMC, but to other churches.

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But I fear that for some it'll become a replacement where church is at home streaming and is not in person.

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But also, too, I've seen God work in powerful ways. I think in spite of all this, my vote would be,

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I think God's strengthening the church more than anything else, really seeing God move. And the people that are at church are really hungry to be here, hungry to love one another, to be in fellowship.

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So I'm sensing that there's a real spiritual revival that's also happening in the midst of these challenges.

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I was about to tell you, Eric, you need to be careful because you're on a podcast for an online ministry.

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So careful what you say there. But no, I totally get what you're saying, in that we get people who will even look to God questions as their church, so to speak.

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And like, no, no, no, absolutely not. It's great that we've reached a point technologically that you can worship together and be taught the

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Word online. But it does not replace fellowship in person. So I get what you're saying.

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So question three, what would you say about how can churches reestablish an appropriate amount of unity despite the fact that COVID is still around and the strong opinions do not seem to be going away?

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So for me, I think one of the ways that we can build unity is to focus on Christ.

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You know, Al said it in the first question of the centrality of Christ. When our focus is on Jesus, He unifies us.

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And so putting Christ in the forefront of all of our personal worship and really respecting that people have

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God led convictions that are different from one another. I think that there is a time where you do need to be convicted in your own mind, be convinced in your own mind what

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God would have you to do in some of these issues. But then because of Christ, to be able to look at a brother or sister and say, we've decided something completely different on some of these

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COVID issues, but we can extend love and grace and forgiveness to each other.

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So I think it's giving people room to be convicted in their own mind, maybe have a different opinion than we would have, but continuing to love them.

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And if we're willing, it's a great exercise for us. You know, it really presents some fresh material to grow in God's love for one another.

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Amen. Yeah, it sounds like an oversimplification of the, you know, the remedy to this disharmony and unity and disunity we have within the church.

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But, you know, first, John, you know, you guys know well, verse chapter one, you know, if we walk in the light as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another.

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And, you know, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. If we walk, if we discourse, if our conversation, if the way we treat each other is in the light, we will have fellowship.

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That's what the Bible says. But we say we, you know, if we walk in darkness and we say we know him, then

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John says, you know what, you're a liar. And to walk in discord and darkness is to walk in darkness.

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And Jesus prayed, you know, Father, make them one that the world might believe that you sent the

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Son. So you see that this is, you know, this disharmony, this disunity that the world has seen in the church.

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It really convinces the world that Christ is a fraud, which is wrong. We know that.

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But how can they believe our message? If we can't get along? And I think it starts with personal examination.

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The Bible says, examine yourself, see if you be in the faith. You know, David prayed, Lord, you know, search me, see if there be any wicked way in me, lead me in a way everlasting.

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You know, I've often witnessed in my own life when I say, Lord, search me, you know, if I'm having a spat with my wife,

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Lord, search me. Is it me? And God will tell me the truth. Yeah, it's you. And I have to repent. So I think it starts with personal examination.

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Every individual believer saying, God, search me, see if there be any wicked way in me of discord and unbelief and fear and then lead me in a way everlasting.

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He says, walk in the light. The light is the word of God. And so if we walk according and line our lives up with the word of God, then we will have unity or the

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Bible is a lie. But Scripture says we will have fellowship with one another.

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I think that's getting back in line with the word of God. You know, self -examination is one way that we can destroy the walls that have been built in the church and be one in Christ so the world might believe that he sent the son.

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Matthew 7 discourages us from judging one another. And later on that passage in verse 5, he says to take the log out of our own eye and then we'll be able to see clearly to take the speck out of our brother's eye.

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I think one of the things our people are challenged with, and I heard this the other day as someone was asking, who do you think the weaker brother is in this situation?

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If we're trying to work through this, then my point is that I don't think it's an issue of who, it's just that it's the principle of what, what are we supposed, how are we supposed to respond to one another, regardless of who he thinks has knowledge and who we think has fear?

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Because I think there's that on both spectrums, if you would. But the point is, I think people have gotten so accustomed to judging and need to work on doing, as Al pointed out, is looking at the log in our own eye and wanting to work on that.

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Some church leaders need to look at the log in their own eye and go back to their church and say, when this played out, we responded wrongly by doing this.

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There's a need for reconciliation and admittance of some log in our own eye. I realize that a lot of churches did well when they were able to act decisively and consistently.

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The churches that were not decisive and they started to let opinion of this party, of group of people or this group of people, and they're flip -flopping back and forth as to what they were doing, the people were not served well.

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And it's important for us as church leaders to be able to accept what things we could have done differently and how we could have done it well.

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And also we need to follow up and spend time ministering to people. For those that have left, it's important to seek them out and to try to reconcile with those situations, even if they've already become established in the sense of another church, because it's important for them to understand that there's a desire for that unity, even though there might be some disagreement.

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And it needs to be modeled amongst people in the church. And as we do this in the body, it'll be more of an example to the people as they will look and see the love that we have for one another.

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Then we will know that we are Christ's disciples. So I think those are the most helpful things that I can think of when a church has experienced some difficulties and they want to establish some unity.

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They've got to listen. They've got to be willing to look at the log in their own eye and want to approach people with a lot of grace.

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Thank you all for excellent answers so far. Question four, I think Eric hinted at this earlier.

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What are some positive things that you've experienced as a pastor in the past two years of COVID?

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I know this is an episode primarily about disunity, but not everything's been about disunity. So I wanted to share with us an example of something positive, maybe a little unexpected that's happened that's really been an encouragement to you.

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One of the roles I have is helping churches find a pastor. And we thought that when COVID hit that they'd be almost impossible.

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But there are three churches I was connected with that each were able to successfully call a pastor in the midst of difficulties.

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They were very gracious for those that couldn't make it. They were very careful. They adjusted some ways in which they typically went through the process of calling a pastor for accommodating those individuals that did not want to take the risk to get together.

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And I found that to be a great expression of understanding how that this is important to the whole body.

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And so I was encouraged by that element. And there are several others, but I'll let the other gentleman be able to share their blessings.

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Well, for me, excuse me, is just several things.

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I mean, I just feel like what Satan meant for evil, God turned around and used it for good. And we just saw a real community, our community grow online.

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Still, we have online services and we see people being added to that every week.

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And seeing that and a hunger, one of the other benefits is a real hunger for fellowship.

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People just really want to come and they're coming back in and just really hungering for fellowship.

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And the other one, and I'm sure Eric can relate to this as well. Every pastor I've spoken to kind of in the circle that Eric and I kind of run around in, they just talk about how

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God had blessed above and beyond financially. I mean, without taking

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PPP money or whatever, they just, you know, the Lord has blessed them tremendously financially.

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So just watching God's provision, it's really emboldened not only my faith, but the faith of our congregation that we're still here and God is still blessing and doing a great work in the fellowship.

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But those three things, just the effectiveness of our ministry online and the hunger for fellowship and just the real financial blessing and seeing

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God healing people through this whole thing. Again, what

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St. Dominic for Evil has just seen so much good come out of it and testimonies of what

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God has done in our fellowship. So I'll share a story with you.

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We were able to have baptism after not having baptism for a little bit, and it was a huge deal for us to celebrate a baptism.

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There's a guy in our church that mentoring a guy in Washington state, and he was talking with him and this guy on Washington state's like,

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I really am feeling led by the Lord to be baptized, but my church is closed. I can't find a church that's doing baptism.

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And this man from our church said, well, we're having baptisms this weekend. It was like on a Thursday night.

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And the guy in Washington state bought a ticket and him and his wife came out and he got baptized and they were going through some challenges in their marriage.

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And that's why they were doing this mentoring with the guy in the Springs. And you could just see God doing a deep work in this man's life and in that marriage.

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And after they got baptized, they were just weeping together. And I've never seen anything like that where someone's like,

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I'm going to get on a plane from the West Coast and come to Colorado to get baptized. And that spiritual hunger to hunger and thirst after righteousness.

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And the other thing that was a blessing for us here at Rocky Mountain Calvary is kind of wiped the chalkboard clean.

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Our church, thankfully, has been here for a lot of years. And sometimes it's like, well, let's do what we did last year.

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And it's just easy to fall into that pattern. Well, COVID completely wiped that out. There's no more.

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Let's just do what we did last year. And as staff and leadership just really forced us to seek the

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Lord of God, what do you want to do now? And I don't want to lose that as the years go on, of hopefully that the chalkboard stays clean and God can write what he wants to during this this season.

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Thank you all again. This has been a very interesting podcast for me just listening to you guys. I enjoy the interview once as I don't do nearly as much talking as the normal one.

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So thank you for that. One closing question. I know I didn't give you this one ahead of time, but I'm confident you'll be able to answer it without any difficulty.

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Speaking to congregants, church members, attenders of your churches, and speaking on behalf of maybe pastors around the country, around the world,

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I don't envy the position you've been in for the last two years, having to make decisions where, you know, there's people on both sides who aren't going to be happy with the direction that the

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Lord leads you to go. What is something that we as your flock can do that would make your job easier, that would make this whole process a little less contentious?

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And how can we help build unity in addition to what you as pastors are attempting to do? Eric, why don't you go first for this one as well?

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OK, well, that's that's a good question, Shea. And, you know, I think just remembering that pastors and elders are human, we're sinful, we fall short.

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I know in hindsight, there was things that I would do differently leading through COVID.

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It was a very tough season. And just knowing that your pastors, your elders were seeking the

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Lord, doing the best that they could. But at the end of it, we're human, we're flawed, we're not going to always get it right.

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And prayer and encouragement goes a long ways. You know, when you get an email as a pastor of encouragement or you get a note of encouragement, man, it just means so much, you know.

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And so if God's put your pastor on your heart and you're like, man, I'd like to give him a note of encouragement, do it because I can guarantee it will encourage him.

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Amen. Yeah, I agree with that. I mean, that's so important. Those notes, you know, we all you get the other notes, too.

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Those are the ones we don't keep, but the notes of encouragement, you know, just like a cup of cool water in the desert sometimes.

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And it's just such a blessing. But yeah, praying for your pastor. And we're humans.

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I told someone this the other day that I've been very consistent in ministry, you know.

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And then I went on to say I've consistently offended just about everybody, you know,

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I you know, it's just, you know, I'm human, I'm flawed. I didn't handle probably the whole

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COVID response perfectly, you know, and all of that. And I'm sure I didn't. But I thank

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God that in our church people have been gracious toward me, even those I think they disagreed many times.

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And that has been so refreshing that they're willing to extend that grace to to not only me, but to one another.

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And so the graciousness of the Lord, the spirit of the Lord is what a pastor needs.

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It's refreshing to his soul. Be gracious to him. He's human. He's going to be he's going to make mistakes.

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And remember that, you know, it is not by might or power, but by the spirit of the

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Lord that that really Jesus is the chief shepherd of the flock and that he's trying to follow the follow the

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Lord. And sometimes he doesn't get it right. But you're going to be fine because the Lord is the one.

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He's our shepherd and he's he's the one taking care of the flock. But yeah, graciousness, words of encouragement and especially prayer is so essential.

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I think there's two things that come to my mind. One is for just people to realize the challenge it is to make a decision that impacts several people's lives, whether it's at the pastoral level, a school level, a government level.

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Too often we can play armchair, whatever, and think that if I were doing this,

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I would do it differently. But the balance of having to consider people of all different perspectives, age groups, et cetera, is a great burden.

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If people could just understand that having grace in that element would go a long way.

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And I would say to those individuals, might be rare out there, that maybe you had some harsh or pretty intense statements that you had with your pastor or some of your leaders.

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Yes, time does kind of go through, but I think it's beneficial and biblical to go back and say, you know, when

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I talked about that, I don't want that to impact our relationship going forward.

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Or I want to see you this way rather than the way I was talking before.

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Because those things are very critical. And as I work with churches, many times the things I'm working with, the things that took place five, 10 years back, and people have not worked on because they just swept them underneath the rug.

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So I would encourage if there were any kind of clashes to not just think, oh, wow, we got through the issue.

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Let's move on. Be willing to talk about it and get reconciliation. Gentlemen, thank you so much for being on the show today.

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I appreciate your insight, your encouragement, your words of wisdom. And thank you for being a little vulnerable at the end of this kind of the stuff you've gone through and how we can encourage you as well.

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Because like I said, you're human. You need encouragement just like the members of your flocks do.

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So this has been the Got Questions podcast with Eric Cartier, the lead pastor at Rocky Mountain Calvary, Al Pittman, the lead pastor of Calvary Worship Center, both those churches here in Colorado Springs.

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And then with Scott Owen, who is a longtime volunteer with GotQuestions .org, also an expert, so to speak, in resolving church conflict.

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So I hope this conversation has been encouraging, beneficial to you. Got questions?