The Laborers' Podcast- Baptism!

Welcome to the laborers podcast. We hope that you can stick around with us to see Baptism What we meet what what we believe and why we believe it. Hope you will stay with us.

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Baptism, the Laborers Podcast, and the Guest Introductions

Welcome back to the laborers podcast. Good evening brothers. How are you? Doing well. Yes, sir. Thank you. Good. Let me do some housekeeping real quick. I just want to remind everybody if you are in the Western North Carolina area Please go visit the Carolina Theatre in Hickory, North Carolina.

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We'd love to be able to pray for you tonight. We've got Dan with us on the laborers podcast. We've got Keith Foskey with us tonight and Tyler know we Glad you guys could be with us to talk about baptism.

Myself and Keith. We are going to be coming from the the Baptist perspective and Tyler and Dan are going to be coming from the the Presbyterian perspective. So let's let's get started and jump right in again.

If you have any questions comments the comment line is open. Credo baptism. We want to define our terms for those people who are not familiar with these these theological terms credo baptism. What what is it and and who practices credo baptism.

Keith? We'll start with you.

Credo Baptism and Who Practices It

Credo baptism the prefix credo means I believe and therefore Credo baptism is the idea that baptism is to be preceded by a statement of faith and that the only people who are right candidates for baptism are those who can make a credible profession of faith with their own With their own will and not be coerced into it or forced into it or even to be Baptized before they're able to understand what baptism means.

So credo baptism means the baptized the baptism of disciples or believers alone.

All right, and who as far as who what's denominations practice credo baptism?

Well, that's a little bit of a longer question because we would say that Typically the first group that most people would think of is Baptists but also there are those of the Anabaptists which would be the the Mennonites and the Amish and others who would fall under the Anabaptist category and then of course, there are the the churches of Christ which practice baptism Upon profession of faith, even though they would hold a slightly different or I would say quite different understanding of what baptism accomplishes but they do only believe.

Only baptized believers are those who profess faith and Typically, this is also the baptism that you find in most Pentecostal churches. You won't find many Pentecostal churches that I'm aware of that practice Infant baptism or what my brother will define as pedo baptism.

So yes. So those are the ones I can think of off the top of my head. I'm sure I'm leaving some out and for those who I have left out, please forgive me I don't. I didn't have a list. So those are the ones I could think of.

So the The other one that is gonna be the most talked about the most understood would be as Keith mentioned the pedo Baptist Tyler you ready to take a stab at this one? What is that? What is pedo baptism?

Pedo Baptism and the Presbyterian View of Baptizing Children

Well, the the the stem there pedo means child or sometimes foot if you want to be really technical. But we're not baptizing feet. We're baptizing children. So but the idea of pedo baptism is that the idea of baptism is for believers?

But it's also for their children. And there are some really technical Footwork into how all that works, but bare bones. Paid that it is for believers and their children.

Okay, and and Dan what. Which denominations? Most would be recognizes.

The rest of them. Namely there would be Presbyterians Anglicans some Methodist the Eastern Orthodox Catholics. Um Episcopalians that yeah, that's that's all that's coming to mind right right at the moment.

I'm sure there might be others.

Did you mention Methodist. I my my my my. Screen cut out for a minute. I didn't hear if you mentioned method.

I said some Methodist because I've actually met some Methodist who I asked him about infant baptism. They looked at me like I had three heads. Okay. So, well, I know that I know that the Methodist Church does allow for it.

Even the Calvinist Methodist back in in Wales. They allow they were infant Baptist, but then they allowed for for for both a credo Baptist or a pedo Baptist position eventually, so I don't know where a lot of them stand today, but historically Methodist have Engaged in infant baptism.

Yeah.

Yeah, and Keith if you need to consult any of your friends like the representative of the Methodist Church. You're welcome to do that if you need to.

Well, he may make up he may make an approach from time to time.

All right, here's here's a question that when this topic first come up several months ago Somebody was asking about the means of grace. So we wanted to find what what the means of grace is what we mean by that and If you if you believe baptism falls under that category why or why not.

So we'll start to circle back around. Keith if you could define what we mean by when we say that's a means of grace.

Means of Grace, Means of Growth, and the Role of Baptism

Well, this is a this is actually again a Something to consider as far as defining terms. Because when Rome uses the phrase means of grace They use it in a different way than the the Reformers would use that term because Rome believed that the church was the was the dispensary of grace and that there was a There was a treasury of merit that they were able to dispense grace from they call it the thesaurus Meritorium and that they are able to dispense grace through that through that channel III say it's like a spigot where the church has the ability to turn on or turn off this spigot of grace and Dispense through these means and and Rome uses seven seven sacraments to dispense grace one of them Of course being the sacrament of bat of baptism.

When the Reformers used the term means of grace it was a little a little bit of a distinction because they were not they were not defining the the means of grace in the sense of being a some some form of of Sacramentalism which is The idea that the church dispenses grace in the way that Rome saw it but they still saw these activities as ways to procure for oneself the grace of God.

And then again by the idea of means receiving God's grace through this means. At our church, we actually don't use the term means of grace. We we may say it is a means of growth we'll say it's a means of.

Because we're we're we're we do we do have some concerns about the attachment that that has to the Roman system. So I said just personally we don't use that term means of grace. Even though I understand what it is what what the intention is from the Reformation perspective.

That's just one of the areas where we we would differ.

Okay, any other additions to that definition. Tyler. Dan, no, it's a pretty good definition.

Know the way I've always thought of it. Well, not maybe not always but the way I've come to think of it is that God has Spoken to Mankind and and allowed. There are certain places where he will be found and always found in his word through prayer baptismal Lord's Supper when approached through faith.

So where will you find the Lord? You'll find him in the means of grace which are those things that have been laid out for us where God has spoken to us. It's not like like our brother said it's not like a spigot that you turn on and off and you get some sort of grace.

Like poured down on to you. You can fill up a cup with it or anything like that. It's just that if if you want to hear God speak. The means by which God has ordained for us to hear him is through his word or through the word preached.

We receive that by by faith if you're going to hear. If you're going to Like for instance you seek the Lord by accepting through faith the Sacrament of the Lord's Supper you go there you find Christ when you receive it by faith.

Not Because of anything special in those things, but because God has ordained those means by which he has communicated to us.

His is his grace. So so within that what comes to my mind is is creation. So where would creation fall under that definition that you're giving us Dan. Because you know scripture talks about how? Creation reveals the glory of God it speaks that there's a creator and It Gives at least a general revelation that there is a God.

So how does creation fall under that that type of means of grace? You know, I hadn't thought about that.

Creation does in some respects speak to to mankind. I don't know if I categorize it under the means of grace, but I really hadn't thought about that one so I'd hate to Speak too much on it. Okay. All right.

Keith shared with us that.

It's those same means of grace He said means of growth and as I was thinking about means of grace. And Tyler you can you can respond to this and let me know what you think and share your thoughts on it.

Um. When I was thinking about means of grace I was thinking about it from from the other side of salvation to where I mean and it's I Think it would be very similar. My thoughts were very similar to where Dan was going where he says this is this is where God is is Located and where I can find him.

Um, I was on the other side of salvation. And you can tell me if you agree or disagree. So a means of grace would be that place where or or that? Mechanisms where God is leading us to faith in Christ.

Is that am I in the ballpark.

Do you think? What do you think Tyler? I'm sorry. Can you run that by me one more time again? Yeah.

Um, so so Dan was talking about where God was located where we can find him through his word through prayer. And through the the other means that he mentioned Would be means of grace places where we can find God and hear him Speak and.

And Keith was talking about how he used the term means of growth, which would be More on the sanctification side on on the other side of salvation I was. Also when I was thinking through this subject I was thinking of The place before salvation means of grace the places or mechanisms that God would use to lead us to faith in Christ.

Do you think I'm in the ballpark by thinking of means of grace and in that way?

Well, I believe I think Abraham Kuyper called it common grace, right? That there's an element of God bestowing grace on lost people through giving them good things through. Yeah, it rains on the just and it rains on the unjust.

So I think there's definitely I think there's room for that. Absolutely. Um, I think it gets dicey when we get stuck in these categories of it's a means of grace kind of like Keith was saying with. It's sounding like the church is bestowing these things and I think if we get out of that that box that we Might be tempted to draw there and just say this is how God creates growth.

I think we're able to better be friendly to that idea Rob. Okay. All right.

So so the next question is Yeah, I would just simply in response to what you said I would I would caution a bit by saying If we say that these are means of grace prior to salvation then are we saying that these are things that are in addition to faith and are we then saying that Justification is not by faith alone, but is through these things and therefore I do think that's You come into a problematic issue when you begin to start saying well for me to come to Christ It must be faith plus these things.

And so I think that's There I think you have to think through that a little bit because when you begin to When you begin to you know, say well, you know, I I can come to Christ through these means the means that we come to Christ is faith and faith alone and and and and all of these other things are Important they're they're valuable, but they are but they are not to be replacements for or additions to faith.

I'm I'm totally on board with what you just said. Absolutely. So if I restate it like this and get it a little closer to where Dan was. Let me know if you think it makes more sense. So I'm thinking about the scripture that says Faith comes by hearing and and Dan brought up, you know finding God in his word.

So the the word and hearing. Would would that be a means of grace leading us to? Understanding our sin and understanding that our need of Christ.

Well, yeah, but you're because faith has to have an object. You can't simply believe in belief. So faith requires Something to believe in or in our respect something someone to believe in so the content of the gospel Has to be proclaimed.

This is what it means when it says faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of Christ. We have to hear the gospel to believe it. But would we say that baptism is a Is a requirement for salvation or that it is a sign of Someone who has been saved and then we get into again going down the path of our friends the churches of Christ who have made salvation.

Five parts if you read the Church of Christ documents, they don't they don't believe in justification by faith alone they believe that salvation comes in five parts, which includes I Believe if I remember correctly, it's baptism repentance faith Holy living and enduring to the end.

I think of the five and I could be off on the last two but that that but those five things Are are the the things that bring about salvation. You notice the first one is baptism and so for them baptism is The is what brings about regeneration and that that leads to another question.

Does regeneration come through baptism? I would say no but our Lutheran friends would disagree and so would our Catholic friends and so would our And many others so so as Baptists and Presbyterians. Neither one would it would affirm baptismal Regeneration.

In fact, we would say that such a thing is not what the scripture teaches.

So, so how would you define. Kind of my approach if you're saying the means of grace are things post salvation. Things that help us to grow in sanctification. How would you define if not means of grace.

I Honestly just it's not a term I use so I'm I mean, okay It's not it not an issue for me. And and I really just that's not what I thought, you know, I mean, I we can talk about it, but it's not I really don't think this is the The direction where if we if we keep doing this, we're never gonna get to the issues of that divide us.

Yeah, right. Okay.

Yeah. Real quick for before we move on. I think one of the things that defines the means of grace So I would have to change my or give an answer to the creation question means of grace are Going to be a more closely tied to God's special revelation his revelation that he has given specifically to mankind in a special sense over and against his not against but In contrast to his general revelation of creation because while his general revelation of creation is enough to give us A knowledge of him so that way with that excuse It's the gospel.

That's the power of God in the salvation. So, where do we find the gospel? We found the gospel where God has revealed it to us, you know in his word and the preaching of the word. And in the sacraments that he's given to us through his word.

So whereas God specifically spoken to us about our salvation that's where we find the grace of God. Obviously when received by faith. So I think we want to make that distinction but like like a brother down here said we don't need to dwell on it.

Too awfully long or whatever. We're never gonna get to yeah.

I wasn't trying to be I just think we have some other things to get to and this is good. This could lead us down a tricky Definition of terms path that we we may not be able to find ourselves out of. Yeah.

Yeah, well some way, you know someone brought it up and was kind of curious about it and some people may see baptism in that Light, so I just wanted to touch on it. So before we jump into the the covenant theology questions and how it relates to baptism then just give us a visual of What covenant theology is because us here are more going to represent that side of things as opposed to dispensationalism, so.

Covenant Theology, the Covenant of Grace, and the Sign of Baptism

Large overarching. Yeah definition of covenant theology. Yeah, whoo. We'll put it this way Covenant theology in a sense is that God has dealt with mankind and revealed himself to mankind through covenant now from their Presbyterians will differ amongst themselves and then from the reformed not this who Differ amongst themselves.

You have the progressive covenantalists and all all sorts of things going on. But in the broadest sense of what covenant theology is it is Recognizing that one of the ways that God the main way that God has revealed himself to us is through covenant.

Any. Any tweaking of that from your perspective?

Well, I would simply say that the that. And I don't want to. I don't want to go first if Tyler wants to say anything. But I I would. I would define the three main covenants defined in Covenant theology which are the covenant of redemption the covenant of works and the covenant of grace.

Because those are the three that create the framework for the system. Sure.

Some people do reject a covenant of Works or at least the language of it. Yeah, so I was just giving like the broadest sure and sure and I'm not.

Correcting you I was just adding adding to To the thought is is the covenant the thing about covenant theology? That's always been somewhat interesting to me. Is that it's. It's it's based upon covenants that aren't named in Scripture the the the covenants that are named in Scripture are the Noahic the Abrahamic the Mosaic the Davidic and the New Covenant and one could say the Adamic Covenant which is made without him in the garden, but but those are the only ones that have specific names, but the Covenant theology is based on a covenant of redemption.

Which was which was an intra trinitarian covenant made prior to creation where God in himself? chose that the father would elect the son would redeem and the spirit would regenerate and that that would happen in time and that he would Create the world in such with it with a decree that those things would take place.

The Covenant of Works as you said not everybody agrees with. I don't believe in a covenant of works and as from classic covenant Classic covenant theology, you're right. Not everyone agrees with that but the definition of the covenant of works is that Adam was given a covenant whereby he could live or die and that covenant of works he broke and Brought death and destruction and disease into the world.

And as a result, we all live having Having become the benefactors of his breaking that covenant and now we live the only salvation comes through grace and therefore the covenant of grace and where the differentiation is between Baptists and Presbyterians as Presbyterians typically believe that the covenant of grace began as soon as Adam fell God began to give him grace and therefore grace began after the fall and Baptists see the covenant of grace as being specific to the New Covenant and that the covenants that preceded that the Abrahamic Mosaic and Davidic All pointed to the New Covenant were not themselves covenants of grace, but rather pointed to the New Covenant, which is the covenant of grace.

Anything you want to add. Tyler, I think we've got it.

Got you.

I just want to give you opportunity to jump in there and and what people are sharing may help us as we talk about the differences and where we divide on the the infant baptism versus believers baptism, so I mean regardless.

What we're saying Tyler I Mean regardless of where you land on the fence here. I think we can all agree that when we start throwing out all these terms and References and everything ultimately what we're trying to get to the root of is how does the redemptive arc that we see in Scripture unfold?

How do we how do we categorize the way that God has revealed himself. From basically from story to story. How does all this point us to the gospel? How do we get there from the garden? Am I am I out of place there?

I Think you're good.

Yeah, I mean you think of the road to Emmaus where the Jesus started with the Old Testament scriptures and Explained to them how those things were about him. So, yeah, if Jesus does it we should to.

So from my understanding the the Presbyterians would would pull from their covenant theology to To get their pedo baptism their infant baptism. Is that correct?

It would. The infant baptism isn't is an outworking of the pedo Baptist.

Covenant theology, right? Okay. So so how do they get that out of their covenant theology?

How does that work my goodness? We've only got 30 minutes left. Tyler you want to take a stab at it you want me to.

Baptism, Circumcision, and the Continuity of the Covenant

Well, I think to start you have the Old Testament. You've got Abraham, you know Keith mentioned the Abrahamic covenant. That God made a covenant with Abraham and part of that covenant involved circumcision.

Abraham was circumcised as a sign of this covenant that he was in with God. This was a tangible outward indication of what the invisible God was doing and as part of that Abraham's son Isaac was circumcised when he was a baby.

And there's this thread that's Pedo Baptists tend to follow of that being applied from family to family generation to generation. That's the Children were brought into or quote brought into the Covenant in that way.

So they have a certain standing in that Covenant. What without making a statement of it themselves. I'm there. I just lost my train of thought here. So.

So the the generational thing is gonna be how it carries over. Is that. Right right. So in.

Circumcision you had a Command to circumcise. Well first off yourself and then your children and then those children after them. That was a sign. That you were a part of that Covenant. Anyone who was not circumcised Obviously of the men were then told that Get lost.

You're not supposed to be here because you have not had the sign of the covenant. I didn't always happen that way but that was a command from God that they should have the Have the sign passed on to their children as their children are are born in no throw out.

The generations on the eighth day you would go to the temple be circumcised. And then you would be a part of the people of God the nation of Israel so to speak the ones who would gather around the tabernacle and then Have the law that would lead them to the temple to give sacrifices to remember the different feast days.

They would be a part of that Covenant community because of their their their family status. Being connected so it's passed down, you know from family to family. Now when you come to to the new Covenant New Covenant in Christ you have a slight change where the sign of the Covenant then becomes a baptism.

I'm sure we can discuss that in depth on where and how and all all of that but as it as it changes over to Baptism the sign then would be given to believers and their children because they're marked off as holy unto the Lord or These are people who are a part of that community.

No, it doesn't mean that they're saved automatically. What it does mean is that they are a part of the community that looks to and trusts in the one true God so they're Linked at least organically to the promises of God with those promises actually given to them at their baptism and Then received by faith when they actually do come to faith in Christ.

So the let me ask one question. So the sign of baptism from that perspective. Because I'm going back to our definition of covenants and I'm thinking about the differences that you guys defined it in my head so the the sign of baptism for Being in covenant.

Are you referring to the the new covenant? Are you referring to the Covenant of Grace? That's overarching from from Adam. Yes. So let me explain.

The the Covenant of Grace would overarch from the time of Adam all the way till basically the second coming of Christ Even beyond depending on how you want to define your terms and look at it and salvation all that however Each One of the the covenants that lie in the Old Covenant and even the the New Covenant itself would be different administrations of that same covenant.

So God's one covenant of grace that spanned over all time would have been administered one way to under Noah one way under Abraham one way under David and then again in a different way your The The New Covenant.

So while the the principle of Giving the sign of the covenant to your children was in the Old Covenant covenants and that passed on Through throughout the history of the Old Testament once you don't when you come to the New Covenant We don't see anywhere where that with that model that pattern would be Changed.

So you would still give the sign of the covenant the the which would be the New Covenant Administration of the Covenant of Grace you would still give that sign to your infant children.

So Keith you would find the The difference in covenants a place a good place where we find a vision. Would that be correct since the the Baptist would affirm that the Covenant of Grace will begin at Christ and so therefore Baptism being a sign would we even say that baptism is a sign of being in the covenant or.

Well that depends on what Baptist you ask so There is not there's not Uniformity among Baptists. As in any you know as there's not uniformity among Presbyterians, you know PCUSA is not much different than a Methodist, you know you know as far as their you know, their willingness to accept all things and and you know, kind of be the be social gospel nut and nutter butters, but Yeah, so when we talk about the baptism as a sign When when when we look at Colossians chapter 2 which is just so happens what I'll be preaching in a couple of weeks I'm preaching through Colossians right now and in Colossians chapter 2 Paul does talk about a circumcision That is made without hands and then in the the very next passage he says We have been baptized and and so the the the Presbyterian tends to see that as Baptism being the new covenant picture of the Old Covenant sign of circumcision and as Dan You know so eloquently stated There is one covenant of grace with different administrations and each administration has different signs and the sign of the Old Covenant was Circumcision and the sign of the New Covenant is baptism.

I'm articulating his position. Some Baptists agree with that some Baptists don't. Some Baptists would say that Colossians 2 is not saying that baptism is the sign of the New Covenant, but rather Regeneration is the sign because that is the circumcision made without hands.

I've seen many baptisms, but I've never seen one done without hands. Somebody had to use their hands somewhere and so Most Baptists that I know would say that the the New Covenant sign is actually the Is is regeneration which is pictured in baptism?

Baptism is a picture of regeneration, but it's not the same thing. This is where we would differ from our Lutheran and Roman Catholic counterparts who would say that baptism causes Regeneration and therefore they would see a Link there and we would say baptism is a sign of regeneration or a picture of regeneration.

Paul says we're buried with Christ in baptism raised to new life. That's a picture of regeneration death and resurrection so. So there's a distinction there. I don't have a problem saying that baptism is a sign of the New Covenant.

I think the New Covenant has two Administrative sacraments or ordinances and those two ordinances are Baptism in the Lord's Supper and I do think that they function as external signs. But that what they point to is they point to regeneration and union.

Baptism points to our regeneration and The Lord's Supper points to our ongoing union with Christ, which is which we we have fellowship with him through the Spirit. So, so yeah, I don't have a problem saying baptism is a sign as long as we understand that it's not it's not a It's not it's not the same as regeneration.

Regeneration is what is the What causes us to be born again that that is what that is what being born again is is to be regenerated. So is that was that clear? I feel like I maybe went off the rail there for a second.

No I like what you had to say.

A Colossians 2 I think it is pointing from two directions at one reality and that one reality is salvation. No, when when you find salvation, it says that you were you know, they were circumcised circumcision without hands and it's it's Arguing basically from the sign to the reality which full and final would have been Salvation and then the other direction having been baptized and also It's pointing the same direction on the Old Covenant.

The circumcision was pointing to a cutting away circumcision of the heart basically a cutting away of the heart pointing to salvation whereas in the New Covenant you see baptism being a sign of of our going through the waters of judgment with Christ being held safe.

You see Peter we were we Says baptism saves you not by Washing of the water so not baptismal regeneration But by an appeal to Christ or to God for a clean conscience. Being that no just like when Moses or numbers when Noah was going into Into the ark and the floodwaters came the ark saved Noah Because he was hid within the ark just just like when we are.

The picture of baptism is that we are held secure By Christ as the waters of judgment pass over us We are buried within this death and raised to walk in the newness of life as I've heard very many times in the Baptist Church.

Sure. Yeah and that phrase.

Circumcision of the heart that. That's in Deuteronomy 10 16 even The Jews were implored to circumcise their hearts. It wasn't necessarily Just the external but there was this substantial component of it being an indication of something deeper than just the thing.

Yeah, absolutely. So I would say that was their understanding which the New Testament counterpart to that would be when Jesus said one must be born again. I think that that is the is the New Testament counterpart to the circumcision of the heart.

Which is because the phrase being born again is a new covenant phrase. We don't see the phrase being born again in the Old Covenant, but the phrase that we do see as you just said Tyler is circumcision of the heart.

That something has to happen internally. Not just externally. If we are only having the external sign and not the internal reality that accompanies the sign then we are. Then we are no better off than the heathen because the external sign doesn't change.

It's the internal change.

And I definitely don't have enough time to throw in all my questions and opinions and Things that have been on my mind lately. So let's just jump back into the back and forth to get to Where we stand on the issues?

The Covenant of Grace and the New Covenant in Hebrews 8

So so Dan and and Tyler, you know, what would be your strongest? argument for The the sign of baptism or baptism being a sign of being in the New Covenant That it carries that's a carryover. Just a different administration.

What's your what's your strongest argument for that? Either one of you. Clearly we don't have one we give up.

I'm kidding you want to go tell me. Have at it. All right. So first thing first thing I'd like to say is that I think what we just discussed is probably more important than What we're about to discuss.

Understanding what baptism symbolizes and why it was given to us is more important I think than a Discussion over the administration of it now discussion of the administration of it is important with all of that said.

The strongest case for infant baptism or covenantal baptism Would be tracing through the old the old covenant Administration how the sign was given to The people of the Covenant and that sign was always given to the the members of the Covenant proper and Their children so they would then become covenant members now that didn't secure their salvation in several many cases It Harmed them in the end because they took what they knew they had the revelation of God before them and they threw it away.

So you come to the the new covenant and when the new covenant? Switches I'd say probably the the biggest point would have been around the time of Pentecost so what you see in in Acts 2 is Peter saying that The the promise of salvation the thing all of the things that were pointed to in the old covenant has come to fruition in Christ.