The American Churchman: Profanity and Manliness

To the American Churchmen Podcast where we encourage men to love the Lord, live out their faith, take dominion over the earth as he commanded and do it all for the glory of God. I am your host, John Harris, and a few housekeeping things.

Matthew is not with me today. If you can believe it, he lives in Florida. My brother's in Florida and they're hanging out tonight. So, and my brother said, oh, we'll come on the podcast. And then I heard last night, he goes, oh, I don't have any podcasting equipment with me.

So yeah, they're probably on the beach or something. Who knows what they're doing, but here I am, I'm here. I'm here still, commitment. But Matthew should be on the podcast next weekend. And he actually, I should also mention, just made it public that he is engaged.

So you can pray for him as he's pursuing some really exciting things, including finishing seminary and getting married. But I do have a guest with me to help discuss some of the things that we're gonna talk about today.

And that is my friend, Pastor Troy Skinner, who is the pastor of Household of Faith in Christ in Frederick, Maryland. And he hosts the Faith Debate on NewsRadio 930 WFMD. Welcome, thanks for coming on, Pastor Skinner.

Pleasure to see you again.

Setting Up the Discussion on Profanity and Language

Yeah, yeah, so we have some stuff to discuss. Usually we do an attribute of God and Matthew's the one responsible for leading off that discussion. So I'm gonna hold off on that. We're really just gonna have an open-ended discussion about profanity, language, guarding our tongue, that kind of thing, which is certainly necessary.

It was necessary back then, right? So it's necessary now. And to help us do this, Tim Bushong, who's a pastor, another friend of mine, wrote an article for TruthScript that I want to go over. But really quick before that, I need to let everyone know that we are having a conference in Selinsgrove, Pennsylvania, Christianity and the Founding, if you're interested in coming, you can still sign up.

There's a VIP dinner and that's coming up April 25th through 27th. So if you haven't signed up yet, there's still some seats available. So I just want to let people know that. And we are also still, I always put the word out there that we're always open to people who want to write for TruthScript.

You can scroll down to the bottom of truthscript .com and they sponsor the American Churchmen. You can click on that publish tab. It has all the specifics of our guidelines. And if you want to donate, we are a 501C3, so we appreciate it.

Words, Labels, and the Changing Meaning of Speech

On that note, there's an article from Tim Bushong called Malakoi and the Appropriateness of That's So Gay. And so I want to start first by Pastor Skinner, I just want to ask you, I don't know how hooked in you are to like the social media discourse out there in Christian land, but there was kind of a controversy, maybe it was two weeks ago with Pastor Tom Askell.

He called someone a Malakoi. Are you familiar with that at all?

Yeah, I don't do a whole lot of dumpster diving into that rock fight that is Twitter, but yeah, I pay attention to try to be equipped with the discourse that's happening,.

Both inside and outside the church.

So yeah, I'm familiar.

Yeah, and this of course, he kind of doubled down on it. He didn't back down. And so, I mean, that's the title obviously of this piece, which we'll go through, but I was kind of curious about your thoughts from the beginning.

Like, I thought it was kind of clever to use the Greek word, Malakoi, you know, effeminate.

Yeah, first of all, I think it's important to say,.

It's, I mean, maybe it's not important to say,.

It feels like to me, it's important to say, we can't know someone's heart. And this sort of thing would be kind of a heart issue.

For me.

So if Tom, Pastor Aspel, was meaning to be rude and obnoxious and tear a brother down, then, you know, I'd have a private conversation with him about that. But I don't get the sense that's what's going on.

First of all, he could have used Ars Akoitai, easy for me to say, Ars Akoitai, but he chose Malakoi instead. So if he wanted to call him gay, he could have used the other word. He used the word that has a semantic domain that is broader.

It can mean soft or delicate, effeminate, weak-willed, somebody who's easily given over to the sway of someone else. There's a range of meaning there. And so I do think, one, yeah, you're gonna call that guy a coward.

I'm gonna call you a coward with more nuance and more theological weight packed into the word. I think it was clever, like you said. And I've never met Tom in person, but I'm familiar with his long-standing ministry.

He's been a good warrior for the gospel and he strikes me as a gentleman. I think he meant it as a bit of a touche, like, okay, if we're gonna go there, let's do this like theologians. Let's do this like pastors.

Let's do this like brothers. So yeah, I wasn't offended. I didn't think it was hilarious, but I found it amusing.

Yeah, yeah, I think that's probably kind of where I come down to. You don't hear that obviously used a lot because it's in another language. But when I was growing up, and I don't know if you had the similar experience, but, and Tim talks about this, that if guys like boys really wanted to offend you, they call you a girl.

And when I was in soccer, I remember when I was like 12 or 13, that was right when everyone in the male world at least was saying, that's so gay. And like gay meant weird, I guess. It was taking on a meaning of just like kinda, I don't know if people even literally meant homosexuality.

It was more just like, that's twisted, that's off. It's queer. And I remember my parents, my dad's a pastor and I grew up in a Christian home. So my parents were, I think they probably caught me saying it or something.

I don't remember, but they said, don't say that. Don't say that because, hey, there's real people that sin in these ways and it's not something to make light of. And so that stuck with me and I personally didn't use it, but I remember everyone around me using it.

I mean, was it like that for you where you grew up?

I'm a little bit older than you. But I go back, at least in my neighborhood, the word gay still had the vestiges of like joyful happiness, frivolity.

It was on the way out. Clearly,.

But there were some of the older folks in my life, they still used it that way. They meant it that way. So these words, I think a good example too.

Would be the word queer.

When I was young, you would call somebody queer and you didn't mean anything other than they were strange. They were bizarre. There was something unusual about them. And now, of course, you call somebody queer, it means something very different.

So the context means something. The word that got used initially to start the whole Tom Maskell thing was coward. Who's to say that in 30 years, coward won't have some sort of a sexual connotation?

I mean, the words are changing, you know?

I know, yeah, there's a number of words. Like I had an uncle who was, we say now mentally challenged, but when I was a kid, we said he was retarded and no one thought that that was a bad thing to say, that you were just saying that he was mentally challenged basically in today's lingo.

But that

I can't even say that. And I have an adult special needs son or he's... And it's interesting because the word retarded in academic settings and in the medical community,.

It's actually a diagnosis.

It's a particular word. As I understand it, it's a particular word for people that have an IQ below a certain level. I think it's if your IQ is 69, like between 50 and 69, you're labeled as retarded or something, I think technically.

And it's an important thing for my family to learn because when my son was part of the school system, we ended up homeschooling for a while too, but when he's part of the school system, they wanted to change his diagnosis to retarded.

And we're like, okay, it's a diagnosis. It's not just a word, not just a label.

Like, what does that mean?

So we looked into it. Basically, they were saying it was uneducatable. So technically speaking, somebody who was a retard or was retarded can't learn.

And we're like, well, he can learn.

So we fought them. We actually fought them tooth and nail and kept that off of his transcript, off of his records and that sort of thing. But you're right. It's gone on to mean something else. Now, calling somebody challenged is offensive.

Oh, yeah. What can you say, right? Like, you're running

There were special needs a second ago, but there are a lot of families that have a special needs person in them that get offended at that. Like, there is no language anymore.

You can't actually describe something because people don't want to be seen as subordinate or less than or like their outside norm. I mean, even that, don't you think the sexual revolution kind of, they tap into this because they want full acceptance.

They want normality. They want us to extend to them the same kinds of privileges that married couples, for example, have enjoyed and social privileges like going to a restroom of the sex that, gender that they are not.

But that seems like it's a pursuit of normalcy that if people recognize it, the assumption being if they recognize this as normal, it will be. When it's not, it just isn't.

Yeah, I'm not sure I'm tracking with exactly what you're meaning because the way I'm understanding you, I would think it could possibly also be the opposite.

Well, no, I'm saying they're taking like a deviant, right? The deviancy that we've always considered as deviant behavior. And they're trying to gain a mainstream acceptance. They want it to be normal.

So they're normalizing it essentially. And I think maybe the attempt with some of these other circumstances we're talking about, like even the word mentally challenged or retarded, like we're coming up with like softer and softer words, but it's all trying to like make sure that we're all equal, that there's no distinctions.

There's no differences. Everyone, kind of like everyone gets a trophy. No one's really weird. We're all, but the truth is like, there are people who have medical challenges. Obviously that's a separate category.

There's also people who are immoral, which sets them apart from others because of their behavior. And God spells these kinds of things out. We used to have terms for them, but we're running out. We're like having a hard time.

Yeah, and that's, you know, so now that I understand what you're saying, I would agree. I think that you hear this, well, you don't hear quite so much anymore, but I'd say 10, 15 years ago when I was doing my radio show, the faith debate show, I would have guests sometimes, they would push back when I was trying to figure out how to identify their theological framework, like their view on things.

Where are you coming from? Like, what do I call that? And the answer I would get too often was, well, I don't like labels.

I don't like labels. Yeah, exactly.

I don't like labels. I don't want to put a label on it. So yeah, that's to your point is if we can't label anything, then nothing means anything at all. And then anything goes. Part of that's, I think we've entered deeply now into the postmodern world mindset where nothing really has actual meanings that are firm.

You know, it's jello nailed to the wall. And I think in a postmodern mindset, well, I can't label it because then I'm defining it. And we can't define things with certainty because we're postmodern, don't you know?

So I think that's part of it as well.

Jesus, Paul, and the Limits of Harsh Rebuke

Well, so getting into this, we've actually talked about certain aspects of this already. We talked about the Tom Askell thing and calling people cowards, but Tim gets into this whole matter of being nicer than Jesus, which I thought was an interesting way to frame it.

And there are harsh things that Jesus said, right? And obviously harsh things that Paul said. So 1 Corinthians 6, 9 is where I guess Malachi and Arsinoecoetes come up. And Paul uses these terms. I guess Arsinoecoetes is kind of a graphic term too.

I don't even want to say, right? Like what?

Well, it's basically two words, as I understand, as I remember my Greek, which isn't as it used to be, but it's basically two words jammed together. It has to do with a man who's in a bed. So it's a man bedder.

It's a man who takes another man to bed. I mean, that's basically, as I understand it,.

The root of that word.

So yeah, that's what I'm saying.

If Tom wanted to really be offensive, he would have called him that.

Right, right, right.

That specific verse says, and it's making a theological point. Do you not know that, actually I should probably do this in NASB or something, because I have it pulled up in NIV, which that's not going to give me probably the best.

So it says, do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God, do not be deceived, neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, it's a Malachi, nor homosexuals, Arsinoecoetes, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

So obviously this isn't like a nickname or like na-na-na-na on the playground. It's obviously a real point that's being made here by Paul, but he uses some graphic language that would be a put-down, right?

Or at least it's negative. And so the question, I guess, then becomes like, he reinforces this shameful standard. Do we as Christians, and then how do we as Christians uphold the righteous standards of God, which are going to include reinforcing some sense of shame, but do it in a way that's actually Christianly and not in a way that's, you know, well, maybe I'll leave that for you to help us walk through in a way that's just outside the scope of what God intends.

So maybe let's walk through that a little bit. Like, how do you rectify or reconcile the actions of some of the prophets and Jesus and Paul? Maybe we could go through examples and then like how we're supposed to treat our enemies kind and that kind of thing.

Yeah, well, I think it's nice to start with the ideal that is put forward as to what a generous heart, somebody who's gentle and kind and self-controlled, what that would look like. And so in that context, we have to remind ourselves about the numerous verses and passages that talk about the importance of guarding our tongue.

You know, the tongue has the power in life and death that we should let unwholesome talk come out of our mouth. I mean, there are countless examples in the Bible that Christian gentlemen are to be Christian gentlemen, they are to have the fruit of the spirit.

So our words should be filled with love and joy and peace and patience and kindness and right on down the list, ending with self-control. And so if, so we're using this kind of a case study with what Tom Askew said.

I think that there's a way to look at that where he said that out of love. He said that as a way to call somebody back to, it's like a cold glass of water in the face.

It's a, hey, snap out of it.

You're gonna call him a coward. How do you like it if somebody calls you a coward? I'm gonna do it in a way that only those who have studied the Bible and know their Greek a little bit are gonna understand.

So you'll know this is coming from a Christian brother who's challenging you to be iron sharpening iron. There is a context in which you can say, that's exactly the loving thing to do. But we also have to remember Second Kings, what chapter, you can help me.

I don't know where you're going.

Some bears bald, some young men who were just respectful to a prophet of God, Elisha, because he's apparently he's bald and they're calling him a baldy bald man.

Second Kings two, yep.

Yes, yeah, 23 and 24.

That's it.

And so they're using harsh, rude language to try to shame him, but they're doing it inappropriately. I think there's a couple of rules. I'm gonna get long-winded if you don't cut me off here in a second.

A couple of guidelines, guardrails that can help us. For so long, I think we in the church have been so quick to wag a finger of condemnation at those who are lost in the world. So somebody who doesn't profess to be a Christian, we have no reason to think they're a Christian.

And you say, you're a sinner. Well, of course, they're a sinner.

We all are.

We need to help them understand that their sin brings condemnation. They need a savior. They need Jesus Christ. They need the price paid at the cross. They keep, so to wag our finger of condemnation at those who can't know better, doesn't do us any good.

And so for the longest, he makes mention of the, Tim makes mention in his article about the 11th commandment being nice. I always thought the 11th commandment was not to criticize a Southern Baptist pastor or something like that.

Yeah, right, I know.

But my point in bringing that up is that's the other side of this is we've been so reluctant to wag a finger at those who are our brothers and sisters in Christ to hold them to account, to call out their sin and to desire of them to uphold a better standard, to set a better example.

So I think we've had it inverted for a long time where we yell at the world and we protect those who are in the church where maybe we should be a little bit more willing to be strident and go there with those who are part of the body of Christ and be a little bit more respectful and demure a little bit more with those who are outside of the body of Christ until one day hopefully God does a work in their heart and then they join us and then we can go at them again.

But even then we wanna do it for the right reasons. So when Elisha is criticized for being bald, something he can do nothing about by the way, right? So talk about some sort of

You're in a road game now, man. I mean, oh yeah, but not back then.

Yeah, physiology attack or something.

Right, right, right.

But he's a man of God, he's a prophet and he's doing God-like things and yet he gets mocked and ridiculed anyway, that's wrong. And I wonder, how do I wanna say this? I wonder if that's not over the last year or two hasn't emerged as the prevailing, prevailing, that's such a strong word.

It has the potential to become the prevailing issue that's gonna define what the church needs to address over the next five years, like the woke issue defined over the past five years.

You think it's that big of a thing, like how we use our tongue and

I saw it when I first, when we got kicked off of all the platforms and I was a big Parler fan, I love Parler. I think that was the best free speech platform.

Back in the day.

Okay.

And then they got shut down and so I'm looking for alternative because fascist book as I like to call it was shutting everything down. And back then Musk didn't own Twitter. And so where do you go? And Parler was a great place, but then that got shut down because it was a great place.

So I went to a bunch of other places and a lot of people joined me going to Gab.

Gab, yeah.

Well, Gab is a nightmare for the kinds of things we're talking about on this podcast.

You know, I don't actually look at the, I have a Gab, but I just post sometimes. I never look at what's there.

I'm with you now because of what I'm talking about. It's just like, I'm wading hip deep in just garbage. It's horrible. And it was beginning to be a problem a couple of years ago. And now it's just like, it's jumped the shark on it.

I feel like X is now where Gab was two years ago. And if it continues that trajectory, I'm really concerned. And so a little wink and a nod to somebody, I know people like to throw rocks his way, but somebody like a James White with Alpha and Omega Ministries.

I think that sometimes he takes things a little more personally than he could or should. I think he's too willing to give a platform to people that are nobodies and make a big issue and drawing attention to people that would be better to just kind of let them fade away.

However, I think his pastor's heart is, I'm seeing a lot of mean-spirited words, a lot of people who are attacking the sheep. And I don't like it. And so I think his heart's in the right place. Sometimes it doesn't come across the right way.

Look, I think the pendulum has swung and I'll let you answer if you agree with me on this. I think we went from a situation where the church was so nice and people weren't being held to account. They were a threat to the gospel because they weren't upholding standards.

For what really makes for a pastor,.

What makes for an elder in the church. There were men who were unqualifying themselves and we weren't calling them out. They were preaching another gospel and they weren't taking the task for it. And so we're like, somebody's got to say something.

And so the pendulum swings in the other direction and I feel like it's gone past plumb. And so now it's so much harshness, so much crassness, so much boorishness.

Well, I was just joking.

It was just a joke. Well, is it a joke at somebody's expense? I think we've got to check our hearts. And I love that Tim makes the point about, we have to take, I forget exactly how he phrases it, but a point, maybe two thirds, last third of his article, he makes the point about we need to consider that maybe the other person is right.

Well, I think that goes both ways. Yeah, where is that in the article?

Yeah, the last three paragraphs. So I'm not sure exactly what sentence. Maybe he's saying, so if an older and wiser man takes you to task in public form and calls you a soft man, why take it as an insult?

There you go.

Is that where you're talking about?

That's it, yeah. So this last paragraph, I guess.

Yeah.

It was late. So yeah, so if an older person

Yeah, I'll read more if you want. If your words or behavior elicit a that's so gay response, first consider the source, but also consider the possibility that the person who said it is right and that something's off kilter.

Men speak directly and most men can take it too. If you can recognize and admit that something needs to change, and then he goes on. So, and he quotes Proverbs 17, 10, a rebuke goes deeper into one who has understanding than a hundred blows into a fool, which is, that's a great proverb.

So yeah, so he's saying, yeah, consider when someone, I suppose, opposes you and tries to rebuke you, that maybe they have a point, don't just dismiss it because you're being attacked, which I think is an instinct that most people who are active in political fights online have probably.

And my reason for bringing it up was it works in the other direction too. So if somebody says, you know, you're so gay, like, wow, am I behaving in a rather soft, unbecoming manner for a man? Like maybe I need to check myself and learn from that.

But what if it was, what if the older, wiser man takes you to task in a public forum and calls you a harsh troublemaker? Rather than, oh, well, who are you being called? You know what I'm saying? Like we've got a meeting of the minds and sometimes somebody that you and I both know, and I don't know if it's appropriate for name names, I don't think I'm going to, but somebody that you and I both know involved in something along these lines.

And I had opportunity to talk with him directly at lunch. And I said, dude, I'm not saying you're right or wrong, the other guy's right or wrong, but there's discord. There's a breach. One of the great things Christ won for the bride is unity in Christ.

I mean, that's gotta be the apostle Paul's favorite phrase. He says, in Christ, in Christ Jesus, in Jesus. Dozens of times, the unity of the body of Christ is so central to the epistles of Paul that has become central to my theological framework and understanding of things.

So when we don't walk in what Christ won for us, it hurts my heart. And so that's what I said to this person that you and I both know. And I said, look, I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, but the other person thinks he's been wronged by you.

Would you reach out to him.

And see if you can just talk through it? And he said, no. And I said, why? And he said, because I didn't do anything wrong. I don't think I'm guilty here. I said, that's not the point. By the way, I think he might've been guilty, but that wasn't even my point.

Hash it out. And maybe that other gentleman will tell you some things about yourself. You're like, you know, I was 100 sure I was in the clear on this, but now I'm seeing it from a different perspective because of your wisdom, your willingness to go there with me.

I know my own heart. I didn't mean it badly, but now I can recognize how that could be taken the wrong way. And I apologize for that. We don't have these conversations anymore.

So you ever play one of those, I don't know if you're into like, you know, arcades or video games, or you've ever, I mean, you know, those shooting games though, where you go and like, you have to

I was a child, I was a high schooler in the 80s.

Did I play video games?

Well, yeah, but like

A high watermark of video gaming, in my opinion.

Wasn't that like Kong though? Did they have

That was the 70s.

That was the 70s, all right. So like, you know those games though, like hostage games, where you have to like shoot the bad guys? You can't shoot the innocent person. So I've seen a lot of arcades that have that.

And sometimes I wonder, like, so it would be appropriate to get the bad guy, right? And even with our words at times as Christians, like we need to correct error. We can use at times, I think there's precedent for some strong language at times because Jesus calls Herod a fox.

I mean, the woes to the Pharisees are super harsh. He insults their intelligence. Like if you knew Moses, man, you would have known about me.

I mean But what are those people? They're wolves.

Wolves?

They're wolves.

That's right.

It's become a cliche. People that know me well have heard me say this so many times. You shoot the wolves,.

You defend the sheep.

That's what I was getting at, yeah.

So those are the wolves. Well, so somebody who wants to go after you, because I'm sure you get it on social media, right?

You're

Yeah, I had it this morning.

You say things that maybe

I go after people too at times that I consider dangerous or whatever, but yeah.

But if they start shooting you, they're shooting a sheep.

Yeah, right.

Unless they have reason to believe you're not a believer, that you're a heretic, that you're a false teacher, that you're a danger to the advance of the kingdom, that you're preaching some sort of counter gospel message.

Otherwise, I think we need to, you know

So like, there's challenging, right? As iron sharpens iron, that takes place within the sheep fold, where like we try to, you know, I can say like Troy, you know, what you said there, I don't agree, and here's my reasons.

And we would have like a healthy spirited conversation. But I think you're not talking about that. You're talking about like being dismissive of someone and using, well, I'll let you define it. Like, how would you define what you're referring to?

Like, what would the term be?

Well, if somebody is a member of the body of Christ, they should be treated with the kind of love and care that Christ would treat them with. So if Christ would rebuke them, I'm going to rebuke them. But I'm going to try to rebuke them the way Christ would.

Get behind me, Satan is within the realm, then a possibility is at, maybe an extreme situation.

No, first of all, we don't know the tone exactly and how that was said, but we do know that in his wisdom, Jesus knew how Peter would receive that and he stood corrected. And Peter was standing in the way of the advance of the gospel, right?

He's going to keep them from his mission. And he's like, you're sounding an awful lot like Satan here, Peter. But it wasn't demeaning, it was corrective.

You see, there's a difference.

And sometimes the difference, you don't know it until after the fact, because we don't have the wisdom of Christ always. So think about, oh, you're in high school, you were probably involved in sports or different activities with men that like to go hiking and do masculine things.

And someone's lagging behind, you're like, come on, Nancy, catch up. You're walking like a girl. Now, we could all be just trying to get them to man up and hustle and come up. And it's all in good fun and nobody's offended.

But if that person took offense.

I see what you're saying, yeah.

Then you're like, you know what? I didn't mean offense. I thought you were holding this up, but I wasn't trying to hurt you. Because maybe that person was called Nancy by his dad his whole life. And it's just a sore spot for him.

And so you're like, what, you can't take a joke? Not that joke. I can't, because I've got issues there. So I think that the context matters, the intent matters, and the willingness to say, and it's not the, this is not the, oh, I'm so sorry you were offended.

That's not what I'm saying.

What we're saying is, I'm so sorry that without intending to, I offended you.

Yeah, you know, I

I didn't mean to offend you and I own that. I did and I'm sorry.

I'll reveal something about myself. I used to get in trouble. And I'm sure in the future, at some point, I probably will get in trouble for this again. Because my humor tends to be like, I really like impersonations.

I think they're hysterical, right?

Really?

Yeah, I just, that's one of my

Like famous people or people in your family?

Everyone, like, so.

Wow, I gotta hear you do me one day.

I don't know. I'd have to be as familiar. And I'm not saying I'm necessarily good at it. I, I can, I'm decent, but, you know, like one, one time when I, I'm embarrassed to say this, but when I was like, I don't know, like a mid teenager, I remember like a friend of mine taking the church directory and just wanting to go through and try to like imitate each person and how they sounded.

And, and especially with professors, it's, it was funny to me, like in school, like, you know, because professors can be so quirky. And so the way they walk and the way they talk. So anyway, I've gotten in trouble before for imitating people's idiosyncrasies, but I'm the kind of guy, like if someone imitates me, I think it's hysterical.

Like, I just think it's like, I don't, I don't take it personally. I just think it's fun to point out how people can be different. And, but, but like, obviously if you're imitating something that's a character flaw or like a health issue or like something that they just don't, they're sensitive about, they just don't like it being highlighted, you've offended them.