The American Churchman: Profanity and Manliness

Conversations That Matter

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

00:00

to the American Churchmen Podcast where we encourage men to love the Lord, live out their faith, take dominion over the earth as he commanded and do it all for the glory of God.

00:11

I am your host, John Harris, and a few housekeeping things. Matthew is not with me today.

00:17

If you can believe it, he lives in Florida. My brother's in Florida and they're hanging out tonight. So, and my brother said, oh, we'll come on the podcast.

00:25

And then I heard last night, he goes, oh, I don't have any podcasting equipment with me. So yeah, they're probably on the beach or something.

00:32

Who knows what they're doing, but here I am, I'm here. I'm here still, commitment. But Matthew should be on the podcast next weekend.

00:42

And he actually, I should also mention, just made it public that he is engaged. So you can pray for him as he's pursuing some really exciting things, including finishing seminary and getting married.

00:54

But I do have a guest with me to help discuss some of the things that we're gonna talk about today. And that is my friend,

01:01

Pastor Troy Skinner, who is the pastor of Household of Faith in Christ in Frederick, Maryland.

01:07

And he hosts the Faith Debate on NewsRadio 930 WFMD. Welcome, thanks for coming on,

01:15

Pastor Skinner. Pleasure to see you again. Yeah, yeah, so we have some stuff to discuss.

01:22

Usually we do an attribute of God and Matthew's the one responsible for leading off that discussion.

01:28

So I'm gonna hold off on that. We're really just gonna have an open -ended discussion about profanity, language, guarding our tongue, that kind of thing, which is certainly necessary.

01:39

It was necessary back then, right? So it's necessary now. And to help us do this,

01:45

Tim Bushong, who's a pastor, another friend of mine, wrote an article for TruthScript that I want to go over.

01:53

But really quick before that, I need to let everyone know that we are having a conference in Selinsgrove, Pennsylvania, Christianity and the

02:00

Founding if you're interested in coming, you can still sign up. There's a VIP dinner and that's coming up April 25th through 27th.

02:08

So if you haven't signed up yet, there's still some seats available. So I just want to let people know that.

02:14

And we are also still, I always put the word out there that we're always open to people who want to write for TruthScript.

02:20

You can scroll down to the bottom of truthscript .com and they sponsor the American Churchmen. You can click on that publish tab.

02:28

It has all the specifics of our guidelines. And if you want to donate, we are a 501C3, so we appreciate it.

02:34

On that note, there's an article from Tim Bushong called Malachoy and the

02:39

Appropriateness of That's So Gay. And so I want to start first by Pastor Skinner, I just want to ask you,

02:46

I don't know how hooked in you are to like the social media discourse out there in Christian land, but there was kind of a controversy, maybe it was two weeks ago with Pastor Tom Askell.

02:58

He called someone a Malachoy. Are you familiar with that at all? Yeah, I don't do a whole lot of dumpster diving into that rock fight that is

03:06

Twitter, but yeah, I pay attention to try to be equipped with the discourse that's happening, both inside and outside the church.

03:13

So yeah, I'm familiar. Yeah, and this of course, he kind of doubled down on it.

03:19

He didn't back down. And so, I mean, that's the title obviously of this piece, which we'll go through, but I was kind of curious about your thoughts from the beginning.

03:29

Like, I thought it was kind of clever to use the Greek word, Malachoy, you know, effeminate.

03:36

Yeah, first of all, I think it's important to say, it's, I mean, maybe it's not important to say, it feels like to me, it's important to say, we can't know someone's heart.

03:45

And this sort of thing would be kind of a heart issue for me. So if Tom, Pastor Aspel, was meaning to be rude and obnoxious and tear a brother down, then, you know,

04:02

I'd have a private conversation with him about that. But I don't get the sense that's what's going on. First of all, he could have used

04:08

Ars Akoitai, easy for me to say, Ars Akoitai, but he chose

04:13

Malachoy instead. So if he wanted to call him gay, he could have used the other word.

04:21

He used the word that has a semantic domain that is broader.

04:27

It can mean soft or delicate, effeminate, weak -willed, somebody who's easily given over to the sway of someone else.

04:37

There's a range of meaning there. And so I do think, one, yeah, you're gonna call that guy a coward.

04:43

I'm gonna call you a coward with more nuance and more theological weight packed into the word.

04:49

I think it was clever, like you said. And I've never met Tom in person, but I'm familiar with his long -standing ministry.

04:58

He's been a good warrior for the gospel and he strikes me as a gentleman. I think he meant it as a bit of a touche, like, okay, if we're gonna go there, let's do this like theologians.

05:10

Let's do this like pastors. Let's do this like brothers. So yeah, I wasn't offended. I didn't think it was hilarious, but I found it amusing.

05:22

Yeah, yeah, I think that's probably kind of where I come down to. You don't hear that obviously used a lot because it's in another language.

05:30

But when I was growing up, and I don't know if you had the similar experience, but, and Tim talks about this, that if guys like boys really wanted to offend you, they call you a girl.

05:46

And when I was in soccer, I remember when I was like 12 or 13, that was right when everyone in the male world at least was saying, that's so gay.

05:55

And like gay meant weird, I guess. It was taking on a meaning of just like kinda,

06:01

I don't know if people even literally meant homosexuality. It was more just like, that's twisted, that's off.

06:09

It's queer. And I remember my parents, my dad's a pastor and I grew up in a

06:15

Christian home. So my parents were, I think they probably caught me saying it or something. I don't remember, but they said, don't say that.

06:22

Don't say that because hey, there's real people that sin in these ways and it's not something to make light of. And so that stuck with me and I personally didn't use it, but I remember everyone around me using it.

06:33

I mean, was it like that for you where you grew up? I'm a little bit older than you, but I go back at least in my neighborhood, the word gay still had the vestiges of like joyful happiness, frivolity.

06:50

It was on the way out clearly, but there were some of the older folks in my life.

06:56

They still used it that way. They meant it that way. So these words, I think a good example too would be the word queer.

07:04

When I was young, you would call somebody queer and you didn't mean anything other than they were strange. They were bizarre.

07:09

There was something unusual about them. And now of course, you call somebody queer, it means something very different.

07:16

So the context means something. The word that got used initially to start the whole

07:21

Tom Maskell thing was coward. Who's to say that in 30 years, coward won't have some sort of a sexual connotation.

07:27

I mean, the words are changing, you know? I know. Yeah, there's a number of words. Like I had an uncle who was, we say now mentally challenged, but when

07:37

I was a kid, we said he was retarded and no one thought that that was a bad thing to say, that you weren't, you were just saying that he was mentally challenged basically in today's lingo.

07:51

But that - I can't even say that. And I have an adult special needs son or he's...

07:56

And it's interesting because the word retarded in academic settings and in the medical community, it's actually a diagnosis.

08:06

It's a particular word. As I understand it, it's a particular word for people that have an IQ below a certain level.

08:12

I think it's if your IQ is 69, like between 50 and 69, you're labeled as retarded or something,

08:17

I think technically. And it's an important thing for my family to learn because when my son was part of the school system, we ended up homeschooling for a while too, but when he's part of the school system, they wanted to change his diagnosis to retarded.

08:31

And we're like, okay, it's a diagnosis. It's not just a word, not just a label.

08:36

Like, what does that mean? So we looked into it. Basically they were saying it was uneducatable. So technically speaking, somebody who was a retard or was retarded can't learn.

08:46

And we're like, well, he can learn. So we fought them. We actually fought them tooth and nail and kept that off of his transcript, off of his records and that sort of thing.

08:54

But you're right. It's gone on to mean something else. Now, calling somebody challenged is offensive. Oh yeah.

09:00

What can you say, right? Like you're running - There were special needs a second ago, but there are a lot of families that have a special needs person in them that get offended at that.

09:08

Like there is no language anymore. You can't actually describe something because people don't want to be seen as subordinate or less than or like they're outside norm.

09:23

I mean, even that, don't you think that sexual revolution kind of, they tap into this because like they want full acceptance.

09:31

They want normality. They want us to extend to them the same kinds of privileges that married couples, for example, have enjoyed and social privileges like going to a restroom of the sex that, you know, the gender that they are not.

09:51

But that seems like it's a pursuit of normalcy that if people recognize it, the assumption being if they recognize this as normal, it will be.

10:00

When it's not, it just isn't. Yeah, I'm not sure I'm tracking with exactly what you're meaning because the way

10:06

I'm understanding you, I would think it could possibly also be the opposite. Well, no, I'm saying they're taking like a deviant, right?

10:13

The deviancy that we've always considered as deviant behavior. And they're trying to gain a mainstream acceptance.

10:20

They want it to be normal. So they're normalizing it essentially. And I think maybe the attempt with some of these other circumstances we're talking about, like even the word mentally challenged or retarded, like we're coming up with like softer and softer words, but it's all trying to like make sure that we're all equal, that there's no distinctions.

10:40

There's no differences. Everyone kind of like everyone gets a trophy. No one's really weird. We're all, but the truth is like there are people who have medical challenges.

10:50

Obviously that's a separate category. There's also people who are immoral, which sets them apart from others because of their behavior.

10:59

And God spells these kinds of things out. We used to have terms for them, but we're running out. We're like having a hard time.

11:06

Yeah, and that's, you know, so now that I understand what you're saying, I would agree. I think that you hear this, well, you don't hear quite so much anymore, but I'd say 10, 15 years ago when

11:14

I was doing my radio show, The Faith Debate Show, I would have guests sometimes. They would push back when I was trying to figure out how to identify their theological framework, like their view on things.

11:24

Where are you coming from? Like, what do I call that? And the answer I would get too often was, well, I don't like labels.

11:30

I don't like labels. Yeah, exactly. I don't like labels. I don't want to put a label on it. So yeah, that's to your point is if we can't label anything, then nothing means anything at all.

11:39

And then anything goes. Part of that's, I think we've entered deeply now into the postmodern world mindset where nothing really has actual meanings that are firm.

11:53

You know, it's Jell -O nailed to the wall. And I think in a postmodern mindset, well, I can't label it because then

11:59

I'm defining it. And we can't define things with certainty because we're postmodern, don't you know?

12:04

So I think that's part of it as well. Well, so getting into this, we've actually talked about certain aspects of this already.

12:11

We talked about the Tom Askell thing and calling people cowards, but Tim gets into this whole matter of being nicer than Jesus, which

12:21

I thought was an interesting way to frame it. And there are harsh things that Jesus said, right?

12:27

And obviously harsh things that Paul said. So 1 Corinthians 6, 9 is where I guess

12:34

Malachi and Arsene Coetes come up. And Paul uses these terms.

12:40

I guess Arsene Coetes is kind of a graphic term too. I don't even wanna say, right? Like what?

12:46

Well, yeah, it's basically two words, as I understand, as I remember my Greek, which isn't as it used to be, but it's basically two words jammed together.

12:54

It has to do with a man who's in a bed. So it's a man bedder. It's a man who takes another man to bed.

13:00

I mean, that's basically, as I understand it, the root of that word. So yeah, that's what I'm saying.

13:05

If Tom wanted to really be offensive, he would have called him that. Right, right, right. That specific verse says, and it's making a theological point.

13:14

Do you not know that, actually I should probably do this in NASB or something, because I have it pulled up in NIV, which that's not gonna give me probably the best.

13:22

So it says, do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God, do not be deceived, neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, it's a

13:30

Malachi, nor homosexuals, Arsene Coetes, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

13:37

So obviously this isn't like a nickname or like na -na -na -na on the playground. It's obviously a real point that's being made here by Paul, but he uses some graphic language that would be a put down, right?

13:50

Or at least it's negative. And so the question, I guess, then becomes like, he reinforces this shameful standard.

13:58

Do we as Christians, and then how do we as Christians uphold the righteous standards of God, which are gonna include reinforcing some sense of shame, but do it in a way that's actually

14:10

Christianly and not in a way that's, you know, well, maybe I'll leave that for you to help us walk through in a way that's just outside the scope of what

14:19

God intends. So maybe let's walk through that a little bit. Like, how do you rectify or reconcile the actions of some of the prophets and Jesus and Paul?

14:32

Maybe we could go through examples and then like how we're supposed to treat our enemies kind and that kind of thing.

14:39

Yeah, well, I think it's nice to start with the ideal that is put forward as to what a generous heart, somebody who's gentle and kind and self -controlled with that would look like.

14:55

And so in that context, we have to remind ourselves about the numerous verses and passages that talk about the importance of guarding our tongue.

15:05

You know, the tongue has the power in life and death that we should let unwholesome talk come out of our mouth.

15:11

I mean, there are countless examples in the Bible that Christian gentlemen are to be Christian gentlemen.

15:18

They are to have the fruit of the spirit. So our words should be filled with love and joy and peace and patience and kindness and right on down the list ending with self -control.

15:28

And so if, so we're using this kind of a case study with what

15:34

Tom Askew said. I think that there's a way to look at that where he said that out of love.

15:41

He said that as a way to call somebody back to, it's like a cold glass of water in the face. It's a, hey, snap out of it.

15:49

You're gonna call him a coward. How do you like it if somebody calls you a coward? I'm gonna do it in a way that only those who have studied the

15:55

Bible and know their Greek a little bit are gonna understand. So you'll know this is coming from a Christian brother who's challenging you to be iron sharpening iron.

16:02

There is a context in which you can say that's exactly the loving thing to do. But we also have to remember second

16:09

Kings, what chapter you can help me? I don't know where you're going. Some bears bald, some young men who were just respectful to a prophet of God, Elisha, because he's apparently he's bald and they're calling him a baldy bald man.

16:24

Second Kings two, yeah. Yes, yeah, 23 and 24. That's it. And so they're using harsh, rude language to try to shame him, but they're doing it inappropriately.

16:39

I think there's a couple of rules. I'm gonna get long -winded if you don't cut me off here a second. A couple of guidelines, guardrails that can help us.

16:48

For so long, I think we in the church have been so quick to wag a finger of condemnation at those who are lost in the world.

16:57

So somebody who doesn't profess to be a Christian, we have no reason to think they're a Christian. And you say, you're a sinner.

17:03

Well, of course, they're a sinner. We all are. We need to help them understand that their sin brings condemnation.

17:12

They need a savior. They need Jesus Christ. They need the price paid at the cross. So to wag our finger of condemnation at those who can't know better doesn't do us any good.

17:22

And so for the longest, he makes mention of the, Tim makes mention in his article about the 11th commandment being nice.

17:30

I always thought the 11th commandment was not to criticize a Southern Baptist pastor or something like that.

17:36

Yeah, right, I know. But my point in bringing that up is that's the other side of this is we've been so reluctant to wag a finger at those who are our brothers and sisters in Christ to hold them to account, to call out their sin and to desire of them to uphold a better standard, to set a better example.

17:59

So I think we've had it inverted for a long time where we yell at the world and we protect those who are in the church where maybe we should be a little bit more willing to be strident and go there with those who are part of the body of Christ and be a little bit more respectful and demure a little bit more with those who are outside of the body of Christ until one day hopefully

18:21

God does a work in their heart and then they join us and then we can go at them again. But even then we wanna do it for the right reasons.

18:30

So when Elisha is criticized for being bald, something he can do nothing about by the way, right?

18:37

So talk about some sort of - You're in a road game now, man. I mean, oh yeah, but not back then. Yeah, physiology attack or something.

18:43

Right, right, right. But he's a man of God, he's a prophet and he's doing

18:49

God -like things and yet he gets mocked and ridiculed anyway, that's wrong. And I wonder, how do

18:59

I wanna say this? I wonder if that's not over the last year or two hasn't emerged as the prevailing, prevailing, that's such a strong word.

19:12

It has the potential to become the prevailing issue that's gonna define what the church needs to address over the next five years, like the woke issue defined over the past five years.

19:24

You think it's that big of a thing, like how we use our tongue and - I saw it when

19:29

I first, when we got kicked off of all the platforms and I was a big Parler fan, I love

19:34

Parler. I think that was the best free speech platform back in the day. Okay. And then they got shut down and so I'm looking for alternative because fascist book as I like to call it was shutting everything down.

19:48

And back then Musk didn't own Twitter. And so where do you go? And Parler was a great place, but then that got shut down because it was a great place.

19:56

So I went to a bunch of other places and a lot of people joined me going to Gab. Gab, yeah.

20:02

Well, Gab is a nightmare for the kinds of things we're talking about on this podcast. You know,

20:07

I don't actually look at the, I have a Gab, but I just post sometimes. I never look at what's there. I'm with you now because of what

20:15

I'm talking about. It's just like, I'm wading hip deep in just garbage. It's horrible.

20:21

And it was beginning to be a problem a couple of years ago. And now it's just like, it's jumped the shark on it.

20:28

I feel like X is now where Gab was two years ago.

20:34

And if it continues that trajectory, I'm really concerned. And so a little wink and a nod to somebody,

20:40

I know people like to throw rocks his way, but somebody like a James White with Alpha and Omega Ministries.

20:47

I think that sometimes he takes things a little more personally than he could or should. I think he's too willing to give a platform to people that are nobodies and make a big issue and drawing attention to people that would be better to just kind of let them fade away.

21:01

However, I think his pastor's heart is, I'm seeing a lot of mean -spirited words, a lot of people who are attacking the sheep.

21:11

And I don't like it. And so I think his heart's in the right place. Sometimes it doesn't come across the right way.

21:18

Look, I think the pendulum has swung and I'll let you answer if you agree with me on this. I think we went from a situation where the church was so nice and people weren't being held to account.

21:32

They were a threat to the gospel because they weren't upholding standards for what really makes for a pastor, what makes for an elder in the church.

21:40

There were men who were unqualifying themselves and we weren't calling them out. They were preaching another gospel and they weren't taking the task for it.

21:49

And so we're like, somebody's got to say something. And so the pendulum swings in the other direction and I feel like it's gone past plumb.

21:57

And so now it's so much harshness, so much crassness, so much boorishness.

22:04

Well, I was just joking. It was just a joke. Well, is it a joke at somebody's expense?

22:11

I think we've got to check our hearts. And I love that Tim makes the point about, we have to take the,

22:16

I forget exactly how he phrases it, but a point, maybe two thirds, last third of his article, he makes the point about we need to consider that maybe the other person is right.

22:26

Well, I think that goes both ways. Yeah, where is that in the article? Yeah, the last three paragraphs.

22:32

So I'm not sure exactly what sentence. Maybe he's saying, so if an older and wiser man takes you to task in public form and calls you a soft man, why take it as an insult?

22:46

There you go. Is that where you're talking about? That's it, yeah, so this last paragraph, I guess.

22:51

Yeah. It was late. So yeah, so if an older person. Yeah, I'll read more if you want. If your words or behavior elicit a that's so gay response, first consider the source, but also consider the possibility that the person who said it is right and that something's off kilter.

23:05

Men speak directly and most men can take it too. If you can recognize and admit that something needs to change and then he goes on.

23:13

So, and he quotes Proverbs 17, 10, a rebuke goes deeper into one who has understanding than a hundred blows into a fool, which is, that's a great proverb.

23:23

So yeah, so he's saying, yeah, consider when someone,

23:29

I suppose, opposes you and tries to rebuke you that maybe they have a point, don't just dismiss it because you're being attacked, which

23:36

I think is an instinct that most people who are active in political fights online have probably.

23:42

And my reason for bringing it up was it works in the other direction too. So if somebody says, you're so gay, like, wow, am

23:51

I behaving in a rather soft, unbecoming manner for a man? Like maybe

23:56

I need to check myself and learn from that. But what if it was, what if the older, wiser man takes you to task in a public forum and calls you a harsh troublemaker?

24:08

Rather than, oh, well, who are you being called? You know what I'm saying? Like we've got a meeting of the minds and sometimes somebody that you and I both know, and I don't know if it's appropriate for name names,

24:20

I don't think I'm going to, but somebody that you and I both know involved in something along these lines.

24:26

And I had opportunity to talk with him directly at lunch. And I said, dude,

24:32

I'm not saying you're right or wrong, the other guy's right or wrong, but there's discord.

24:38

There's a breach. One of the great things Christ won for the bride is unity in Christ.

24:44

I mean, that's gotta be the apostle Paul's favorite phrase. He says, in Christ, in Christ Jesus, in Jesus. Dozens of times, the unity of the body of Christ is so central to the epistles of Paul that has become central to my theological framework and understanding of things.

24:59

So when we don't walk in what Christ won for us, it hurts my heart. And so that's what

25:05

I said to this person that you and I both know. And I said, look, I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, but the other person thinks he's been wronged by you.

25:13

Would you reach out to him and see if you can just talk through it? And he said, no.

25:19

And I said, why? And he said, because I didn't do anything wrong. I don't think I'm guilty here.

25:24

I said, that's not the point. By the way, I think he might've been guilty, but that wasn't even my point.

25:30

Hash it out. And maybe that other gentleman will tell you some things about yourself.

25:35

You're like, you know, I was 100 % sure I was in the clear on this, but now I'm seeing it from a different perspective because of your wisdom, your willingness to go there with me.

25:48

I know my own heart. I didn't mean it badly, but now I can recognize how that could be taken the wrong way.

25:53

And I apologize for that. We don't have these conversations anymore. So you ever play one of those,

26:00

I don't know if you're into like, you know, arcades or video games, or you've ever, I mean, you know, those shooting games though, where you go and like, you have to -

26:07

I was a child, I was a high schooler in the 80s. Did I play video games? Well, yeah, but like -

26:13

A high watermark of video gaming, in my opinion. Wasn't that like Kong though? Did they have - That was the 70s. That was the 70s, all right.

26:20

So like, you know those games though, like hostage games, where you have to like shoot the bad guys? You can't shoot the innocent person.

26:27

So I've seen a lot of arcades that have that. And sometimes I wonder, like, so it would be appropriate to get the bad guy, right?

26:34

And even with our words at times as Christians, like we need to correct error. We can use, at times,

26:39

I think there's precedent for some strong language at times, because Jesus calls Herod a fox. I mean, the woes to the

26:45

Pharisees are super harsh. He insults their intelligence. Like if you knew Moses, man, you would have known about me.

26:51

I mean - But what are those people? They're wolves. Wolves? They're wolves. That's right.

26:57

It's become a cliche. People that know me well have heard me say this so many times. You shoot the wolves, you defend the sheep.

27:04

That's what I was getting at, yeah. So those are the wolves. Well, so somebody who wants to go after you, because I'm sure you get it on social media, right?

27:13

You're - Yeah, I had it this morning. You say things that maybe - I go after people too at times that I consider dangerous or whatever, but yeah.

27:20

But if they start shooting you, they're shooting a sheep. Yeah, right.

27:25

Unless they have reason to believe you're not a believer, that you're a heretic, that you're a false teacher, that you're a danger to the advance of the kingdom, that you're preaching some sort of counter gospel message.

27:36

Otherwise, I think we need to, you know - So like there's challenging, right, as iron sharpens iron, that takes place within the sheep fold, where like we try to, you know,

27:48

I can say like, Troy, you know, what you said there, I don't agree and here's my reasons. And we would have like a healthy spirited conversation.

27:55

But I think you're not talking about that. You're talking about like being dismissive of someone and using, well,

28:05

I'll let you define it. Like how would you define what you're referring to? Like what would the term be?

28:12

Well, if somebody is a member of the body of Christ, they should be treated with the kind of love and care that Christ would treat them with.

28:24

So if Christ would rebuke them, I'm going to rebuke them. But I'm going to try to rebuke them the way

28:31

Christ would. Get behind me, Satan is within the realm then of possibilities in maybe an extreme situation.

28:39

No, first of all, we don't know the tone exactly and how that was said, but we do know that in his wisdom,

28:45

Jesus knew how Peter would receive that and he stood corrected. And Peter was standing in the way of the advance of the gospel, right?

28:52

He's going to keep them from his mission. And he's like, you sound an awful lot like Satan here,

28:58

Peter. But it wasn't demeaning, it was corrective.

29:08

You see, there's a difference. And sometimes the difference, you don't know it until after the fact because we don't have the wisdom of Christ always.

29:16

So think about, oh, you're in high school, you were probably involved in sports or different activities with men that like to go hiking and do masculine things.

29:23

And someone's lagging behind, you're like, come on, Nancy, catch up. You're walking like a girl.

29:30

Now we could all be just trying to get them to man up and hustle and come up and it's all in good fun and nobody's offended.

29:36

But if that person took offense. I see what you're saying, yeah. Then you're like, you know what? I didn't mean offense.

29:42

I thought you were holding this up, but I wasn't trying to hurt you. Cause maybe that person was called Nancy by his dad his whole life.

29:48

And it's just a sore spot for him. And so you're like, what, you can't take a joke? Not that joke

29:53

I can't because I've got issues there. So I think that the context matters, the intent matters and the willingness to say, and it's not the, this is not the, oh,

30:05

I'm so sorry you were offended. That's not what I'm saying. What we're saying is I'm so sorry that without intending to,

30:12

I offended you. Yeah. You know, I used to offend you and I own that I did and I'm sorry. I'll reveal something about myself.

30:19

I used to get in trouble and I'm sure in the future at some point I probably will get in trouble for this again because my humor tends to be like,

30:28

I really like impersonations. I think they're hysterical, right? Really? Yeah, I just, that's one of my.

30:33

Like famous people or people in your family? Everyone, like, so. Wow, I gotta hear you do me one day.

30:39

I don't know, I would have to be as familiar and I'm not saying I'm necessarily good at it. I can,

30:46

I'm decent, but you know, like one time when I, I'm embarrassed to say this, but when I was like,

30:51

I don't know, like a mid teenager, I remember like a friend of mine taking the church directory and just wanting to go through and try to like imitate each person and how they sounded.

31:01

And especially with professors, it was funny to me, like in school, like, you know, cause professors can be so quirky.

31:08

And so the way they walk and the way they talk. So anyway, I've gotten in trouble before for imitating people's idiosyncrasies, but I'm the kind of guy, like if someone imitates me,

31:18

I think it's hysterical. Like, I just think it's like, I don't, I don't take it personally. I just think it's fun to point out how people can be different.

31:25

And, but, but like, obviously if you're imitating something that's a character flaw or like a health issue or like something that they just don't, they're sensitive about, they just don't like it being highlighted, you've offended them.

31:40

And I've had to apologize before and say, I'm so sorry. I won't do that again. But it takes a lot of discernment and like, and I guess

31:48

I've come down on like, if I, if I'm questioning it, I just don't do it. Like, you know, if I, if I wonder if this is going to land or not, don't even say it.

31:56

That's probably the better thing to do, unless you know that everyone's going to be cool with it and everyone can, everyone can laugh together.

32:04

Yeah, if you know that they would be amused by it, go for it. If you have reason to think they would be amused by it, you can probably go for it.

32:12

But then if you learn that they weren't really amused by it, then you quickly have to backtrack, apologize, try to make things right between you.

32:21

And yeah, you know, I think you said something on a recent podcast about cage stage.

32:29

I don't know if it was in response to a question or if it was the main theme, if it was tied to a main theme you're talking about, that I don't remember.

32:36

But when you said it - Yeah, I think ideology, don't be an ideologue, you know, I was talking about. Yeah, yeah.

32:42

You and I disagree on some of that, by the way. Might be defining terms, might be semantics. But yes, it was that one.

32:48

But the cage stage, I don't know why, it's funny how the brain works, but as soon as you said it, something like a penny dropped for me and it clicked.

32:55

And so it's famous in reform circles, right? Somebody, for the first time, recognizes how the whole

33:03

Bible really makes sense from a reformed theological perspective. They have a second born again experience, right?

33:08

Yeah, and then they're on fire and Calvinism, Calvinism, Calvinism, and they're going crazy.

33:14

And the idea of the cage stage is, okay, we gotta put them in the cage for a while till they settle down and can be around normal people.

33:20

Because you let them out of this cage, they're gonna do all sorts of damage, cause all sorts of relational problems. We gotta cage them for a while.

33:27

Right, right. I think that's what's happened to us culturally, particularly in the church in the

33:32

West, since maybe it began, people began to wake up in 2018, 19, but by 2020, everybody's goggles came off and they could see clearly.

33:43

And so culturally, all of us entered the cage stage at the same time.

33:50

And so we're running around in response to all the problems we're seeing in the church, all the problems we're seeing politically, all the problems that we're seeing online with people not calling out, platforming of Martin Luther King Jr.

34:06

or talking about the woke nonsense. It wasn't called out. And so now we're all amped up on, we now see clearly, and by golly,

34:16

I'm gonna jam that truth down your throat. I think we're all collectively in a cage stage on truth. You know what

34:22

I think's going on there? So this is my read of it. The leadership class before 2020, because I think 2020 was kind of a turning point in many ways.

34:32

We didn't trust our institutions anymore, but before that, there was an image that people projected.

34:39

And that image was a very nice, good bedside manner, let's face it, kind of effeminate pastor figure that couldn't shoot a wolf.

34:48

And after 2020, I think people realized courage was in short supply and we need people we can trust.

34:55

And we're scrambling and people are finding online voices that tell them sometimes what they wanna hear.

35:01

Sometimes it's the truth, sometimes it's not, but they're looking for something, some kind of stability.

35:07

And it seems to me like the credibility now in some circles is based upon whether or not you're actually brave, because that's what we've been deprived of.

35:17

They want bravery. We want guys who are gonna stand up. But this is like the thing that I've been toying with.

35:24

There's, I think there's substitutes for virtues. Like someone can be super nice and have a bedside manner and that's a substitute for humility, right?

35:32

It doesn't mean you're humble just because you're nice. You could be the most arrogant person and be nice. But with bravery, it seems to me you could just be an arrogant jerk and you're not brave at all, but that's like the devil's substitute.

35:44

Like people hear that and some people think, oh, he's sure of himself and he's willing to condemn people who disagree with him.

35:51

He must be brave. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like - I don't think that further, because I think that a lot of times it's a mask.

36:01

People are masquerading as brave when really they're fearful. Yes. They're afraid for their future.

36:06

They're afraid, I'm never gonna find a wife. I'm never gonna get a job. I'm never gonna own a house. I'm never gonna have a country that I can be proud of like we once were.

36:15

And they're so afraid. And then the mask is to put on this brave face.

36:20

They're wearing war paint. And then they're not truly brave. And so then all the things you talked about, it's actually, they're just a jerk.

36:29

Well, it's also, it's easy to be brave when you don't have consequences anymore. Like I remember 2020 and 2019, and I'm not saying that I'm the pinnacle of bravery or whatever, but it really felt like a huge risk to countersignal the woke nonsense, especially sitting from a

36:47

Christian institution, which is, I was going to school at Liberty University at the time. And man, did

36:52

I feel isolated. And I know there's others who did too. And it really did take a certain level of gumption to be able to, when everyone's gonna point guns at you and go through your underwear drawer, say,

37:06

I think you're wrong. Yeah. They don't have to make it about you, make it about Russell, Russell Fuller. Oh, Russell Fuller.

37:12

Yeah, there you go. Russell Fuller is a great example of this. Yeah, because he's recognizing what's going on. And did he walk into Al Muller's office and start calling him a bunch of names?

37:23

Right? No, but he, and he was afraid. He admitted as much, right? He admitted he was afraid.

37:29

He expected he would probably lose his job. He wasn't entirely sure what he was gonna say, even up until the moment he spoke, he probably wasn't a hundred percent sure he was even gonna speak.

37:39

And yet he said what he had to say. And I wasn't in the room, but I've gotten to know

37:44

Russell a little bit, not as well as you. But he's a gentleman. And I'm sure his words were filled with salt and light, but also some thunder and lightning.

37:55

And, but he's a gentleman and he's got a nice bedside manner. Yeah. He's not gonna back down from a fight.

38:02

So that's Christian courage under fire. I agree. That's a profile and courage for the Christian.

38:08

All this, you know, the stereotypical keyboard warrior, keyboard warrior nonsense, where there's really no consequence.

38:17

It, that's, that's, that's not bravery. Yeah. Putting yourself out there. Cause you, I'm not sure where you are now, but back then you probably had aspirations of going the academic route or becoming a pastor and being ordained within some tradition.

38:31

And you were ruffling a lot of feathers for both of those avenues. And so you do that knowing,

38:37

I'm probably slamming some doors on my own face here right now, but I feel like somebody has got to say it.

38:43

Who better than me? I wanted to be in the SPC. I was, I, and that, that boat certainly sailed as soon as I came out against what they were doing.

38:52

There's a lesson in that. You know, there was a time when I wanted to be in the PCA and I had a pastor tell me that he thought my reasons were,

39:03

I just wanted the, the good standing reputation that comes with the PCA. You just, you just want the value of the brand.

39:12

And I was like, wow, what a thing to say. Cause it couldn't have been further from the truth, but how has that aged?

39:18

The PCA brand ain't so great right now. And then I actually was, I was in a planted church as an

39:23

SPC. I know Presbyterian PCA and SPC, how do I reach that? That's a separate conversation.

39:29

But I was in the process of planting a church with the SPC and very last minute almost, a church in the area needed a pastor.

39:38

And I was like, oh, why start from scratch when I can plug in over there? But again, I aspire to be in the

39:44

SPC. Man, it's a cliched kind of phrase. I don't know if you hear it so much anymore, but thank

39:51

God for unanswered prayers, right? Yep. Yep. Well, I want to just let the audience know we're about 40 minutes in.

39:58

So we're going to have about 20 more minutes. If you get your questions in and when there's already a number of comments and questions that I have set aside,

40:04

I will get them to Pastor Troy Skinner and he can answer whatever question. I want to talk a little bit about profanity though.

40:12

And we've been so far talking about maybe harshness and rebukes and that kind of thing.

40:19

It's funny you mentioned Dr. Russell Fuller, actually. Maybe I'll try to transition this because I actually saw him a few weeks ago and I respect him a lot.

40:27

I was just asking him like straight up. I'm like, you can tell me honestly the truth. Do you think

40:33

I'm doing okay? Where do you think about where things are going? And I've been having some second thoughts about where I fit in and all of this kind of thing.

40:40

And he just like, he gave it to me in the most masculine but gentle way.

40:46

It was great. It's like, I can't describe it, but I think he's just, he's walking with Christ.

40:52

He knows when to turn the volume up and knows when to turn it down. Like he's learned this kind of discernment.

40:59

And he was telling me some things I already was suspicious of in my own life, but he's like, you need to go more of a ministry route.

41:05

And the news, the timelines make you have to be an expert on like everything.

41:11

And then next week it's a new topic and you have to be an expert on that. And there's just not good fruit coming from some of the hyper online stuff and like, get out of that.

41:20

And I was like, you know what, you're right. Not, he didn't say that he didn't accuse me of anything, but like I was seeing some of the things he's saying.

41:27

I'm like, you know, there is this sort of like this mindset you can get when you're always in a bunker, when you're always taking shots and you're always shooting and everything's a battle, you start, it becomes harder to discern the sheep from the wolf sometimes.

41:41

And it's also, I think like if you're there 24 seven, your mind needs a rest. You need to choose the battles that God has for you, not just what's in front of you.

41:50

So, you know, that being said, this is my transition, I suppose. There's vulgarities, there's curse words, there's, sorry,

42:01

I just get a call here. There's like different categories, there's scatological terms.

42:07

There's, so like, maybe I'll bring this as an example up. Like there was maybe a few months ago in Moscow, Idaho, at their new

42:15

St. Andrews College, they put out an ad for their school that had a picture of Johnny Cash with a middle finger.

42:21

And I criticized it and I said, look, it's not about like, you know, flipping the bird on idols was their kind of thing.

42:27

It's more just like, you know, why, why Rick, why put our minds in the mud?

42:33

So I was, I guess, critiquing it by saying, it's not the rebuke, it's not the strong words.

42:40

It's more just like, this is, vulgarity, it's a vulgarity,

42:47

I guess. Like it's unnecessary, it doesn't build us up. Like I'm looking at the positive standard of Ephesians four.

42:53

But obviously there's also prophets, like some people use this as a defense. Like Elijah's saying, where's your

42:59

God? Is he in the bathroom? And like, isn't that kind of a reference to something scatological? And so, so maybe help us out there.

43:06

Like, are there lines? I'm sure, I know there are, but like, how do you separate, like what's appropriate and what's -

43:14

I think audience is hugely important. You know, back in 2016, there was a lot made about locker room talk.

43:23

If you remember during the presidential campaign, locker room talk. Right, yes.

43:29

And there is a language that could be appropriate in a locker room that wouldn't be elsewhere.

43:37

Another way that phrase is used is like, you know, this isn't a story I can share in mixed company. Right, or sometimes you'll talk about something on your podcast, very infrequently, but on occasion you'll need to say something like, if you've got some younger ears in the car listening with you, this might be a time for you to stop.

43:57

So there are different contexts and the audience is a big part of context matters.

44:04

So in that particular ad, who was the intended audience? Christians. You know, so I think to me, what they were signaling to me, and I don't know their heart,

44:17

I haven't talked to them about it, so it's not fair for me to say probably, but we're having an honest conversation. We have to navigate these things.

44:23

My read on it was they were trying to signal, we're cool, we're so cool, we're edgy.

44:30

Are you kidding me? If you're edgy and you're angry and you want somebody who's gonna go to war and fight the fight with you, come with us because we're not afraid to flip the bird for public consumption.

44:42

I just, I feel like their attitude wasn't one of sin necessarily, but I don't think it was an attitude of let's edify and build one another up.

44:54

So I would have, if I'd seen that beforehand and I asked my opinion, I said, you gotta take that out. It didn't need it.

45:01

It didn't need it. Another example, Jeff Durbin around the same time, wasn't it? Or maybe it was a little bit before, a year before that probably.

45:06

He had the sermon where he famously used a bad word. And he was at a conference. The BS thing, right?

45:13

Yeah, and he was at a conference with Christians and he spent like, well, in classic

45:18

Jeff Durbin style, he spent like 17 hours setting it up. You know, he's talking and talking and talking and talking, getting to that point so that he could make his point.

45:29

And people in my church actually were offended by that. And I had to talk about that with them and explain how

45:35

I didn't think Jeff was wrong. I can understand how somebody would, but given the context and the point he was trying to make, and it was thoughtful and apparently

45:45

Durbin sought out the advice of his other elders, like, should I really do this? What do you think? So it wasn't just this shooting from the hip, trying to be cool and trying to come across as based.

45:57

That by the way, if I never hear the word based again in my life, I won't miss it. Our turkeys are based.

46:05

Exactly. Now these words, they don't mean anything like they used to anymore. So the audience matters.

46:11

The occasion matters. It's kind of like doing exegesis in the Bible, right? You want, what's the historical context?

46:17

Who was the intended audience? What's the surrounding context before and after it?

46:22

What's the point being driven home here? And if all of that makes sense. So when you're saying, where's your

46:28

God? Is he in the bathroom somewhere? Who is he talking to? Elijah's talking to false teachers, enemies of God who are holding an inordinate sway over God's people, leading them in the wrong direction.

46:43

And so he's highlighting in that moment how your God is no God at all, because if he was a real

46:49

God, he would strike me dead for what I just said. And so the context is very different, but you'll notice

46:55

Elijah wasn't running around saying that to everybody all the time. And that's what happens on social media right now is everybody's doing that to everybody all the time.

47:05

I mean, that's obviously a hyperbole, but there's way too much of that. Yeah, we've been desensitized to a lot of it too.

47:13

There were standards, even when I was young, I'm sure when you were young, even more so that have just been abridged and we're never getting them back, it seems like.

47:20

Like now I hear the F word all the time just out in public. And that's insane to me, especially when

47:27

I hear a child say it. This is something that is, again, this isn't a curse. You're not cursing them because there's a biblical way to curse, but you're bringing up things that should only really be mentioned in certain contexts, especially private contexts.

47:44

And you're abridging, I think, that standard between public and private in the sexual way.

47:50

Curse language, it doesn't do anything to advance the cause of our culture. And that's what supposedly everybody's worried about right now.

47:56

Yeah, well, let me give you some questions because we could talk forever. But let's see, just some comments also,

48:04

Cripple Creek says there's a time and a place for mockery. Numerous biblical examples, I agree.

48:10

Matt Borish says, Colossians 4 .6, gracious speech, but seasoned with salt. And Cripple Creek, I don't know if this is a question, maybe, he says, it's not sure if it's wise to apologize based on how people react.

48:27

So what do you think about that? Like just because someone's offended, and you didn't say that, by the way, but should you apologize just because someone's necessarily offended?

48:36

Obviously people get offended of the truth, but I think you were more saying like if it's something that's inconsequential, it's not a true thing, it's just, they didn't want you to talk about their limp or something.

48:47

If they're offended by the cross, they're offended by Christ, they're offended by that, well, you're not gonna apologize for that.

48:54

But if in the process of trying to make a point, you say something that you intend to be good humor or something like that, and they're offended, okay, you misread the situation, you didn't understand their sensitivity.

49:07

Doesn't mean that you, maybe this will help. I'm not suggesting that you accidentally offending somebody was sinful, but your unwillingness to make things right with a brother or sister in Christ, to restore a breach in the relationship,

49:23

I think is simple. Yeah. You know, if I said to you right now, John, I think you're ugly and your mother dresses you funny, and you laugh, okay, we're good.

49:32

If you're like, well, actually I don't really like when people say that to me,

49:37

I think, oh, it was a joke, I'm sorry, I hope you can forgive me. That's all I'm saying. We should be about restoring relationships, pulling people together in the body of Christ, living out the unity we have in Christ.

49:50

And one of the comments you didn't pose it as, maybe it wasn't posed as a question, but there's ample examples of mocking in the

49:58

Bible. There's plenty of, yes, there are, but I'm telling you for every one example of mocking, I could give you a dozen examples of being gentle and kind and self -controlled.

50:08

There are occasions, but they should be rare. That's what these, that was the kind of the point

50:14

I think that Durbin was making too. He wanted to use that BS word. He wanted it to have maximum impact.

50:20

Yeah, it's weird to me. It's a little weird in my mind. I mean, and maybe you're right about that. It's just, I've never felt that,

50:26

I guess. Like I really want to say this dirty word and just really, because you know you're abridging a standard when you do that.

50:35

And, but it's also for an outsider, especially, it's probably weird. It's like, I hear that all the time.

50:41

And that's like a big deal to you Christians. Like it just, it sounds like the eighth grader who's like,

50:46

I just said a bad word. You know, it's like, it's cringy. Like the Simpsons episode where Bart's in the backseat.

50:53

They apparently visited a church for like the one time in the whole series probably. And he's saying ass, ass, ass, ass, ass.

50:58

It's in the Bible, ass, ass, ass. Well, yeah, I mean, it's in some of our carols too. And there's a double meeting now.

51:07

So it's like, what do you, yeah. So, all right. So here's another one. Maybe the cursing and swearing should be banned under explicit or obscenity.

51:15

Okay, so asking, it's not really asking, questioning whether or not there should be laws that ban certain types of speech.

51:24

Oh yeah, what do you think of that? You think there should be laws against blasphemy? Well, you're getting to the theonomy question now.

51:30

I don't know. I mean, well, a lot of it. We could spend the next two hours talking about theonomy.

51:37

So my short answer is no. Okay, what about in institutions?

51:43

I think the church should police it. So inside of the church, as I'm an elder, right? Blasphemy would be dealt with throughout the political structures, if you will, of the institutional church.

51:56

But do I think that the civil government, the problem I have with that is we have too many examples of people in civil leadership that have not a clue what blasphemy really means.

52:07

I don't want them making that determination for actual believers. That's my hedge on that.

52:14

They do have - In a perfect world, in glory, there will be no blasphemy. In Christ's eternal kingdom, there's no blasphemy.

52:22

And if there were, it would be dealt with by the governing authority. But that's not where we are now.

52:28

We're not in glory presently. Yeah, we do have like unofficial blasphemy laws. Like, we actually official ones too, kind of,

52:35

I guess. Like treason can sort of be considered it's a blasphemy of the state, but we don't really enforce that, do we?

52:42

But we definitely are very sensitive to anything that's racially insensitive or sensitive to women or minority classes.

52:50

That almost becomes like a substitute blasphemy law, I think, even though it's more of a custom, I suppose. In a healthy culture, you don't need those kinds of laws because the community would take care of it themselves.

53:01

Yeah, you're not getting a job. You're not, you know, your credit level goes down. Let's see what, so Elijah, so I think he's asking about like who defines what's,

53:13

I mean, I'm trying to remember what you said. I can't see, the writing's too small in my screen. Why is it bad though?

53:18

Who defines that? I think he's talking about cursing and swearing. Who defines what cursing and swearing is?

53:24

That's a good question because some of this seems to be culturally determined. We established that there's words that have changed meaning.

53:32

And so context is going to probably tell you what the word actually means, but you know, the

53:38

Bible, so maybe bring, what's the universal here versus the particulars? There's a universal standard we're appealing to or trying to apply it in certain settings.

53:49

Yeah, you know, and I don't know if it's still the word that's used anymore, but once upon a time, cigarettes in Great Britain were referred to as,

53:59

I'm not even sure if I'm supposed to say this on these platforms, so I'll spell it F -A -G. You know,

54:05

I'm gonna go take a drag on my F -A -G, but if you say that in an

54:11

American context, it can be an offensive word. So I think it is culturally conditioned. And I don't,

54:17

I mean, obviously if we're talking about cursing in the form of like, we're taking the

54:24

Lord's name in vain, we're saying something blasphemous about God, then religiously we have all sorts of parameters for that from scripture.

54:33

I think that the other stuff has to go with the broader, like the big view of what's the picture of the

54:40

Bible presenting to us. And we are to be peaceable with others as much as it is up to us to do so.

54:45

So if the world is gonna be horribly offended and in an uproar because I chose to use a word in front of mixed audience, am

54:54

I being peaceable with others as much as it's up to me to do so? I would say no. So you pick your spots.

55:01

You have to have some awareness, some social awareness, some cultural awareness to recognize what's okay and what's not in certain situations.

55:10

And if I feel like, man, if I say this and it's gonna offend everybody, sometimes it's worth it by the way.

55:16

And that's the point I was trying to make with Durbin's thing because I think I'm totally fine with what

55:22

Jeff Durbin's point was there. Can others have done things like that too? It's a little bit of a stunt, if you will, for a pastor to do something like that.

55:29

But if it's not done very often, that stunt can still have great effect. So are we being peaceful with our neighbors?

55:36

Are we loving our neighbor? That's the piece that's really missing, right? That's the core piece that's missing from the dialogue on social media.

55:42

Are we loving our neighbor? Are we pausing right before we hit that send button or hit the return button or whatever it is to make that, what do they call them on X now?

55:52

Are they still called tweets? I don't know. Yeah, you tweet on X. I don't get it. You tweet on X.

55:57

Before you send that tweet or put that post on Gabber or before you send it, ask yourself, is this gonna be received in love?

56:05

Is this gonna be received as a corrective rebuke? Because it can be sharp.

56:12

Like if you sent me a text and said, Troy, I think you're way off here. I could be offended by that, but I'm gonna be like, well, you know,

56:19

I know John, I know he has my best interest at heart. I'm gonna be a generous reader of his message to me and I'm gonna give him the benefit of the doubt.

56:29

But sometimes you just can't give the benefit of the doubt because they don't want you to, right? They're so bombastic.

56:35

They're dropping nuclear weapons on your head with words.

56:40

So I wanna get to this by Elijah. Elijah Grzykowski. He says, but you, he's talking about me,

56:48

I guess. You just said BS. Everyone knows what expression you mean and is thinking it. So it is, is it the hearing it, thinking it or saying it aloud?

56:58

And then he follows it up with the medievals were a lot earthier compared to us in their references to body parts and functions.

57:06

Does the Bible say that that is sin or is it our Victorian sensibilities? So I guess

57:12

I'll take a quick stab at this and then I wanna pitch it to you, Pastor Skinner. So since it was directed at me, I actually don't know that everyone does know what that is.

57:20

I am sensitive to the fact that there are children listening that may not know what that is. And so I do purposely sometimes say things like that with the understanding that, not everyone does know what it is, but you're right.

57:32

Probably adults know what I'm talking about there. I look at that word as, I remember when

57:38

I was a teenager, I had some friends who were farmers and we were at their farm and they called that barnyard talk.

57:46

That was barnyard talk. So you don't take that inside the house, but in the barnyard, you can say those things.

57:53

And that kind of stuck with me because I don't actually, I wouldn't use that in the barnyard, but I look at it as a traditional thing.

58:01

Like we use other words to describe those things, right? And there's certain words for the concept of poop.

58:09

There's certain words that are used that go from like acceptable audiences to unacceptable or barnyard, or you can only use that in this context.

58:22

And I do think a lot of that is, I don't know if it's Victorian, but it is tradition. We've been born into a context where certain words have over time been used in ways that are off limits.

58:33

I mean, the N word is a good example of this because this is a word that originally, I mean, the etymology is it means black essentially, but because it was used in certain ways, it eventually developed a different connotation that was viewed as insulting.

58:50

So, you know, is it ridiculous to me that someone is, you know, can do horrible things and they're accepted in society, but if you say this one word, you're beat it out of,

59:01

I think it's ridiculous. But at the same time, like as a Christian, why would I just say things that are offensive?

59:07

Like, it doesn't mean no good. There's other words I can use. So anyway, that's a long way, I guess, of me saying that I don't view it as sinful in and of itself to say those words.

59:17

It is a vestige of tradition to even use the acronym in mixed company though. And I think it's upholding a tradition standard.

59:28

I wouldn't argue that this is necessarily a biblical universal standard, but I think it is important, as you said,

59:35

Pastor Skinner, to be aware of your audience and your context. And I want to reinforce those things in my world, especially with kids, that make for decency, order, respect.

59:50

I want there to be some kind of like a social more system so people know what to say and what, and I fear we're losing that.

59:58

So I'll pitch it to you. And do you have anything to add to that? Yeah, well, one, I think that you using the initials

01:00:06

B and S, one, anybody who knows what that means they'll have been exposed to that word.

01:00:13

So you're not introducing something into the vernacular. So there's that. Also, I think you're signaling that, you know, there is, we should be circumspect a little bit with some of these words.

01:00:23

And so I'm not gonna actually use the word. And so for those who are wondering, well, where are the rules? Oh, well, at least as far as John Harris is concerned, the

01:00:31

BS word is over the line for polite conversation in mixed companies.

01:00:37

So we're helping to train each other up by speaking that way while still attempting to be understood.

01:00:44

And by the way, when the comment or question was first brought up, might've noticed

01:00:50

I kind of made a face and smirked a little bit, because I was reminded we have a peach tree in our backyard and it's been incredibly fruitful for us.

01:01:00

We get dozens and dozens of peaches. They're great. Every August, we're just eating peaches like crazy. And it's a tradition for us to enjoy these peaches.

01:01:09

And I'm not sure when the first moment was, what triggered it, but my wife is outside, you know, help me get all the peaches and stuff.

01:01:16

One of the ways you get the peaches when they're way up high is you shake the branches, the peaches fall, you collect them and you, you know, you make pies or smoothies or what have you out of them.

01:01:24

So I started singing a song by the Steve Miller Band and one of the lines of the song is,

01:01:31

I really love your peaches, wanna shake your tree. Okay. Now there's a double entendre in that lyric, okay?

01:01:39

And as I was singing it to my wife under the peach tree, I was shaking the tree and at the same time, flirting with my wife, okay?

01:01:50

Right. He thought that was cute and clever. Everybody's got one, right? I have one person who found me to be cute and clever.

01:01:58

So I married her right away. And she saw a shirt in the store for sale that had those lyrics on it.

01:02:05

And she's, oh my gosh, this is like the greatest thing ever. So she bought it and it was a gift for like father's day or my birthday or something like that.

01:02:13

But without thinking, I wore that shirt to an episode of the faith debate.

01:02:18

We were recording the faith debate in studio and one of the pastors on the panel kind of called me out and said, you really think you should be wearing that shirt in public?

01:02:27

And I said, what do you mean? And he said, well, people could take it the wrong way. So one, you have to read into the lyrics.

01:02:34

You have to know the song to understand that it's double entendre. And if somebody does figure it out, they're gonna be mature enough to understand that, okay, he loves his wife.

01:02:45

He appreciates his wife and her attributes or whatever. And this is a shirt that he wears in honor of his wife.

01:02:52

I'll let it go. However, and so I think the pastor who was stern and firm with me on that,

01:02:59

I don't agree with him. I think he was a little wrong headed. However, I heard him. And so now

01:03:04

I'm a little more judicious about when and where I wear that shirt. Yeah. Because I don't need to be causing an offense unnecessarily as much as I might like that shirt.

01:03:14

It's okay, it's not that important. Yeah, that's a really - That's why I made the face. And we have to remember this too.

01:03:21

Outside of context, words mean nothing. Any word in isolation from surrounding words in context have no meaning whatsoever.

01:03:33

You can see this with the word bad. That's bad. Okay, does that mean bad? Like it's gone bad, it's spoiled.

01:03:39

You shouldn't eat it or drink it. Does it mean bad? Like, you know, Michael Jackson in the 80s, bad is cool, it's really hip.

01:03:45

Like, what does bad mean? You know, or based, we used that word earlier.

01:03:51

Outside of a context, it helps us know what it means. What does it mean? So that's why, how do we define these things?

01:03:57

How do we know when we're being inappropriately crass or mean -spirited even or whatever?

01:04:04

The context will tell us. Yeah. I don't think we can define, just say this word all by itself means something because these same words that Barnyard talk in that context wasn't wrong, but in a totally different context is wrong.

01:04:18

So it takes wisdom. It takes discernment. And the one other thing I would add, because I've been in the podcast here, but sometimes using a word or using an acronym, you're not, it's not actually using, you may be saying the word or saying the acronym, you're not using it.

01:04:35

So you're not, I'm not applying that to a, if that makes sense. So I think that that's also a separation that I would make that I think is -

01:04:42

Like that Joe Biden phrase. Yeah. Which phrase? Was it like, wasn't it like F Joe Biden or something like that?

01:04:49

Oh, let's go, Brandon thing. There you go. Let's go, Brandon. You know what that means.

01:04:54

Oh, well, yeah. Yeah. But I never really - Let's go, Brandon, but you'd have to know the context.

01:05:02

Yeah. And in a certain context, maybe you would refrain from saying that if you know, maybe you're not going to use that at a family gathering where somebody, you know, is a radical leftist and they're gonna light their hair on fire if they hear you say that, maybe you don't want to pick that fight.

01:05:17

And it seems to me like it's people, it seems like it's a more immature instinct to want to know the rule book as far, like in the sense of like, what are the naughty words and only see the evil or goodness attached to the word.

01:05:32

I think, as you said, it's intent and it's context. And it's not, you know, like I could use an acronym and I'm not using the word.

01:05:42

I'm just saying the acronym to refer to the word. And it's like, oh, the evil is gonna get on me. No, it's not.

01:05:48

Like, I'm not using the word. I'm not applying it to someone. I'm not. So, and the only reason that term would be not suitable is because really it's referring to scatological things in a kind of edgy, crass way.

01:06:03

And we want to keep our society pure. And so, you know, I think even curse words, like they're set aside for very rare usage in specific circumstances.

01:06:14

They should be. I mean, I had a boss once who, he used the F word as a verb, a noun, an adverb.

01:06:21

Oh, I do, I'm glad he did. The word snafu or the acronym snafu, you know, that can be understood to have the

01:06:29

F word in it, right? But you could also, snafu stands for situation, normal, all fouled up.

01:06:34

Like you can change the, you know, it doesn't have to mean what we want to make it mean necessarily, so.

01:06:40

You just pure flixified that word for me. There you go. All right, well, with that, Pastor Troy Skinner, you want to plug anything?

01:06:47

Where can people go to listen to your sermons, attend your church? Yeah, I'm on a variety of the socials.

01:06:52

Easiest way to find me on all of them is to go to the church's website because all my socials are linked to there.

01:06:57

The sermons are linked to there. The faith debate show that I do is linked to there. So it's a one -stop shop.

01:07:03

It's a little bit of a mouthful, but if you can remember the name of the church, you can remember the website. So it's householdoffaithinchrist .com.

01:07:12

So household of faith taken from a book of Galatians, the body of Christ being the household of faith.

01:07:18

And I was just going to have the church be called household of faith. And then I realized, well, in today's context, I might want to make sure they understand what the faith is in.

01:07:26

So I added in Christ. So householdoffaithinchrist .com. You can connect with me everywhere.

01:07:32

And like I said, I don't go deep diving into the pits of social media. However, I am responsive to those who reach out to me.

01:07:39

So if somebody comments on something from me or reaches out to me, I will definitely engage.

01:07:45

Or if I see it, I will definitely engage, but I'm not out there seeking to pick fights with other people on their social media platforms.

01:07:52

It's not really, I don't have time for that. Yep, understood. All right, well, thank you for, this was enjoyable.