DANGERS of the "Church of Christ" | Round 2

John 6 and Defining Terms in Apologetics

When they see the word work of God, that's code for works of obedience that you do, okay? And so this kind of stems from John chapter 6. Because we see that phrase and what's my pattern? We're gonna define terms.

We're gonna look at context and we're gonna be consistent. Tell people that's what we're gonna do every time. It'd be no different here. Like they really think this is a like a big defeat.

I'm gonna say look at context.

Welcome Back and Introductions

Welcome back. Ladies and gentlemen, I'm your host Eli Ayala and I am here with The apologist with perhaps the coolest apologetics like ministry name. The apologetic dog just makes me picture me like Walking my dog and an atheist comes up and before I open my mouth my dog starts spitting arguments out of me.

That's pretty intense brother the apologetic dog that is awesome. Well, I am happy to have my good friend Jeremiah and now I say my good friend I better pronounces his last name, right?

Nortier got it. No, you like the French version. Is it North Hill North? Yeah, I can't. In the South Eli we say nortier nortier.

I've had Jeremy on a number of times and the particular episode that I think people found really useful was when we were talking about the Church of Christ and We had a lot of negative comments about that episode but we also had some very positive ones and I've actually had people personally reach out to me to express how helpful that episode was so.

We we know this going into these sorts of discussions that not everyone's gonna agree. But we do our best. Jeremy does his best to just share things from his perspective as he understands things and tries to explain and give You know the truth from the Word of God as best as he can and we just pray that God through his grace Allows those seeds to take root and grow and so we're here we are to continue to do that.

But before we do that, I want to talk about his recent debate on baptism. This this man is a debating dog. He's a beast. I think he does such a great job and he does it it's with such kindness but with biblical precision.

I really do appreciate listening to him teach and speak. So we're gonna jump right into that in just a few moments. But I want to read something that someone sent me that was an encouragement now I hear this all the time you guys know that on this channel.

We do some precept man where I'm a presupposition list, right people Come to this channel they know they're gonna get Presuppositional apologetic methodology and you have kind of the mixed reaction of the people who take the various camps of apologetic methods.

You know, there's always there's always those people, you know apologetics a precept sounds interesting. The problem what it is. It doesn't work, right? Okay. Now I have a problem when people say something doesn't work.

Okay Apologetics is not simply a pragmatic thing, right? We don't do precept because it works or doesn't work. We primarily do it because we think that it's biblical. You think it's a biblical approach to apologetics.

That's the first and foremost reason why we do it. And if it's biblical Then it will work in so far as it accomplishes what the scriptures say Apologetics is supposed to accomplish and we leave room for the work of the Spirit and things like that.

However. To satisfy those people who say that it doesn't work. Okay, I'd like to read something else a sense. I can't mention any names. I don't want to mention any names and drag anyone into this and details, but someone had reached out to me and Texted me this so he says so I just talked to a Christian who got saved because of presuppositional apologetics.

So here's an encouragement keep doing what you're doing. He also said that nowadays nowadays he listens to your stuff almost daily. Thank you very much. And then he said yes. He was a hard atheist and tag the transcendental argument for God's existence just stuck with him.

Today, he is three years saved and active in church. Okay. There you go, right? Does it work? Yes. Is that the reason why we do it? Not necessarily, but God does use it. And so when someone says well, where are the results?

Well, I mean This is a wonderful example of the results of using such a method in form of argumentation and I can I could attest and I'm Sure, Jeremiah could attest to your personal interactions. I have seen God use presuppositional apologetics quite powerfully that said To not rattle any cages unnecessarily.

I've also seen God use classical apologetics, right as we famously say God can strike a blow with a broken stick and in reality while I think I have the right Apologetic method we are all broken sticks.

And so God uses us nonetheless. So there you go, right? I'm not gonna throw any red meat to the to the tribe, right? You know the the camp but uh, I I don't know who's told who told me this. But they said that I like how I do apologetics better than how you don't do apologetics.

So I'm a presupper. I hope more people use presupp because I think it's biblical but if you're using classical or evidential. Hey, that's not my cup of tea. I've got my issues, but I think God can still use it and so keep talking about Christ keep thinking rationally and biblically and In the end when we go to be with Christ and glory, we'll all be presuppers then.

So anyway, I Just wanted to get that little that little bit out. Let's jump right in we're five minutes in got some people listening in. Thank you so much, and I'm looking forward to talking about this.

The Gavin James Baptism Debate and Its Context

So Jeremiah you have been making your rounds a little. I'm gonna lie. I'm a little jelly a little little jealous. Doing all these cool debates. Let me make sure I get on. Let me see this gentleman's name.

You just recently debated a gentleman by the name of Gavin James am I correct? Is that yes. Yes, Kevin James on the topic of Baptism it was the baptism debate proposition is what our baptism necessary for our justification before God.

Okay, baptism super important topic. We obviously will not hold to the position that baptism is necessary for justification. But that is not to undermine the great importance of baptism. So how did that debate come about?

What would you walk up to someone on the street and be like, you know, we debating right now and just. Is what what is the context for this interaction you had with with Gavin? Good question a few months ago.

I was on the cultish podcast with our friends Andrew and the other Jeremiah. And you have a brother named Jeremiah, right? I do. Yes. All right. We're the Jeremiah crew. Me me and my friend the fishbone Trey Fisher.

This was his second time on cultish on Examining the Church of Christ and we see them outside of the fault. Unfortunately, and we say this with love and care. We do not think they believe in the right gospel that they veered away from Orthodoxy.

They've added works into the gospel of grace and added it with faith. And so that's what we talked about in cultish and. And Eli we've had a ton of feedback both good and bad and so Gavin messaged me on Facebook and He told me that He really likes the cultish podcast and then to his dismay He found that there was two episodes on the church the Church of Christ being a cult.

And so he was telling me or asking me to reconsider basically and I just invited him. I said hey. You know, I'm sure you're very passionate about your position I'm passionate about holding to faith alone looking in the perfect Savior alone.

And that's how we're made right before God I was like, how about we have just a public discussion debate on this and one thing led to another and so We're able to make that happen. And so I real quick before we continue on with that I just want to encourage people go to the cultish podcast go check out those episodes.

I love the work that Jeremiah Roberts and Andrew are doing out there at Apologia. You're no stranger to Apologia yourself.

Yes, I have the opportunity to go up there and record six. I don't call them lectures, but I guess they're lectures six teachings I suppose on Presuppositional apologetics and it's gonna be available on their Apologia Studios Academy in the near future so an opportunity to meet Jeff and Have dr. James White buy me dinner.

I mean that that's that was yeah, that was cool, man I'm a little jelly. No, I was like I was driving with him in his car and I'm like look I'm like.

James White truck like this is weird and awesome at the same time. So on the back of his truck. Did it say Christ or chaos kind of?

Let me tell you something I don't remember the color but when when you see James White in a debate. He's all dressed up in his suit and you know, he's being James White when I see him in his natural habitat.

He comes in and picks me up in this bright. I think it was his bright orange jacket with these like Ultimate warrior shades, you know like wow, this guy is cool. He has such a unique style about him. It was awesome.

We had such a good time to such a different very different person from the debate stage. And then when you're kind of just hanging with him casually, it was really cool to to kind of hang with him in that context but yeah, that was that was recently and I'm looking forward maybe doing something again in the future.

So we're actually having the cultish podcast host on this show where we are going to do an episode called.

The.

Pre-supping the cults. Pre-supping the cults. So we'll be talking about various cults and maybe issues of the occult and and kind of dig into how we will we could approach those topics from a A presuppositional approach so that I'm looking forward to that.

That's in early April. I think April 8th I have to double-check but I think that's it. That's just around the corner. Just around the corner. Yeah, so looking forward to that. Those are great guys there and they're doing some great work.

But let's get back to what you're doing man that that's awesome that you were people should definitely check out your interviews there. And I highly recommend if you haven't already The apologetic dog YouTube channel, I highly recommend and I'm not I'm not just saying this because Jeremiah is a great guy and he's doing awesome things.

He's got some really good content I mean if if you kind of put this on pause and kind of just like subscribe to his channel and like just do him.

A solid he's almost at. Let me see you. You are currently at nine hundred nine hundred subs. They're actually on a race with a few other YouTube channels to 1k. Help me people. Yeah.

I'm dead serious. We do need to support people who are doing good ministry, right and support sometimes just means Subscribing right that means something. So so if you guys can if you haven't already go to the apologetics dog YouTube channel and support.

Support your local apologist sound like a infomercial, right? If you go right now to the apologetic dogs Channel and subscribe you will receive a small vial of oil from the holy. I'm just kidding. Who knows you'll get some Pentecostals going over there real quick.

So so this debate let's go. I'm a little saucy today so I do apologize. Ready to go. I've got my I got my Bonson coffee mug. Oh, yeah the coffee. I'm ready to talk about this important topic. So so the context of the debate is as you explained it why why?

Why was the proposition Framed in the way that it was. It says here is water baptism necessary for our justification. Before God why not the generic is is baptism necessary for salvation? What's the reason for that wording?

So me being in apologetics and in the bait realm. These are the types of categories I'm constantly contending for like when we say or is it necessary for salvation? Well, which part of our salvation are we talking about justification?

We talk about sanctification or we we're talking about what Jesus accomplished. Calvary talking about glorification. And I'm not gonna lie Eli as he was knocking on my door saying hey reconsider these things.

I was like, hey, let's debate and he it was pretty soon where he said, okay, I'm interested in this. He goes I don't have a YouTube account. I said all you need is a camera. He said, okay.

And.

Really? Yeah, all you need is a phone and he asked me if I had any suggestions and I suggested this topic thinking. Maybe he'd want to you know, word it a little bit differently, but he said no I like it.

And I just thought well water baptism that way when we go to certain texts that I think is more Baptism of the Spirit. I don't want to get lost on that even though that's relevant. And he would have been totally within the confines of the debate to ask me about what baptism of Spirit looks like.

We talked about the word necessary. But more so in the sense of when we have forgiveness of sins now the Church of Christ. They think at baptism your past sins are washed away and the way that we view justification getting into this next term we believe it's the whole enchilada as Greg Bonson would have said right the whole enchilada.

All of our sins are forgiven and put on Calvary in exchange we receive that that righteousness of Christ and so that's why I wanted to say necessary for our Justification because when we just say salvation in a broad sense.

We have to do some more heavy lifting to get at that term. Sure to say that's what we're contending for here. Not not sanctification in the broad sense. And so I want to just go ahead and put that out there.

Now we understand Justification as being forensic or judicial and that's so necessary. This is what really sets us apart from Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox. But I tell people it is if justification is judicial.

Then it's necessarily before God as judge. And so this is the language that Romans uses. And so what's on the backside of that is what is James 2 talking about? What kind of justification is is that before because you and I've talked about this before.

This is in a context before men a vindication before man.

Horizontal justification versus vertical justification. So that so that. And this is an important point in terms of just biblical Interpretation when you see the term justification It doesn't always mean what you think it means the context determines.

And so you have Paul utilizing Justification in a very different way than James is using justification. That's a very important point because as you know, James chapter 2 is always brought up. Look it's clear, bro.

The only place in Scripture, right? You've heard this before right. The only place in Scripture where it says faith alone is preceded by Not by faith alone as though you've never read that before. Well, that is always brought up.

So it's important to know the context there, but good and I'm so quick to say read the whole verse. It says you see Carrying this person-to-person interaction and what kind of faith is he talking about?

Oh a said faith. He's not talking about pistis firm trust in the perfect Savior. So yeah, we just developed that context. Well, that's excellent.

I like I like that wording and it really highlights really the center of the gospel and this idea that. What what makes us right before God? Is it this declaration that God makes upon us by faith which itself is a gift of God or is it something we do?

I think that's so important now can you kind of I think people from the other perspective might perceive a person like yourself and People like myself people in general who hold to this kind of justification by faith alone.

That we don't really take seriously the issue of baptism. What is the proper understanding that a justification by faith alone? Believer, what's the proper context that we should understand the importance of baptism if it's not for salvation then is it really all That important.

How should we how should we frame that in our own thinking as Christians?

Baptism as a Sanctifying Work of Obedience

Yeah, something that I contended heavy for in the debate if some of our Viewers go over there as you'll see me begin to articulate how our baptism is something we participate in in a work. And it's a wonderful God glorifying Sanctifying work that we do and participate in and so we just got to have the proper category scripture I would say from Genesis Revelation makes the case that it's based on our faith in the perfect Savior.

That's how we're justified. That's how we're saved. But now we're on this wonderful journey of walking in the light walking with Christ in sanctification and so all of our works Ephesians 2 10 talks about how we're his workmanship created for good works all the commands given to us that we should Delight to obey belongs in our sanctification.

That's what we're created unto after we've been declared right before God. So works are not bad as long as we understand the proper category our works belong in our sanctification. And so when we obey Christ's command to be baptized We are showing the watching world what true disciples of Christ look like we are set apart By the things that we do and how we identify with Christ.

So that's huge in this debate I really Made the distinction between justification and sanctification in faith and works and I saying guess what our baptism which is a ceremonial, right? By definition belongs in our sanctification and it's a work that we do.

Mmm. All right, that's awesome.

Now I'm kind of gonna break my normal way of doing things. I usually take questions at the end. But if some questions start coming in and we'll kind of just shoot them up right away. So people don't have to wait too long.

It is a good question here too by Shane. So if you have any questions you're listening in Shane Fisher, that's right. If you have any questions Shoot them in the comments and we'll try to shoot them up and and and kind of get to them.

So Shane, thank you so much for your question. Shane asks, how is it justification before men when Abraham and Isaac were the only ones on the mount and according to Genesis 22 How were they justified before men?

How would you how would you interact with that? Excellent question?

I've been asked this time and before I answer I have a question for Shane. Are you related to Trey Fisher? I want to know that I think y 'all are distant cousins.

So.

Genesis 22 is super important because we see that James 2 tells us that Abraham is being obedient to God. Was not Abraham justified by his works when he offered up his son Isaac. And so how do we say that this is a vindication before men?

I would say Shane you need to go read all of Genesis 22. Because when you do that You do see more people with Abraham. There was two travelers with him and his son and he says something remarkable to the two travelers.

Because Abraham knows God told him to go sacrifice his son and he says to the two travelers Basically, I'll stay here and we will come back to you. Okay, Hebrews 11 says that he had faith in God even to resurrect Isaac from the dead.

Essentially, and so he's putting his faith on display to them regardless of what they know is gonna happen. All they see is Abraham's faith saying he knows with certainty full assurance that him and Isaac are going to come back.

So those are two witnesses, I would say and then the third witness is Isaac himself. This is an experience. Isaac would never forget right? And so it keeps going.

And hey Isaac remember that time we went fishing. Yeah, dad. Remember that time you like almost sacrificed me. Oh, yeah.

I remember that.

Actually, I'm reminded as you the way you answered. I know that I think it was Paul I don't remember where but he is making reference to the Exodus and the Wanderings in the wilderness and the disobedience of the people of Israel and he says to his current audience These things were written for you so that in a very broad sense we are witnesses to the genuineness of.

Abraham's.

Faith. Yes, right. You jumped ahead of me. I was.

I'm sorry.

I still got some more spice to add in there. Oh you gotta have this you got the salt the salt Bay the justification Bay. No, no, you're good. So what we're seeing set up with the three witnesses is a picture of how truth is established by three or more witnesses that would Come later in the law.

So we have that but we're not done. Because we also have a theophany Where the angel of the Lord speaks from on high but to man's level and says this amazing statement. Now I know that you fear God. So when when in this conversation I also entertain the Church of Christ asking me this question a lot of times is do you think God was learning? Abraham's faith in this moment that he truly feared man, or was he speaking on the human level, which is what we're talking about.

That's what James 2 is talking about, right? And so John Calvin brings us out in his commentaries how God is speaking on man's level. God is witness that true living faith will manifest itself out to the world.

What we see old and New Testament is the just shall live by faith, right? But we keep going baby because this was in the Pentateuch, right? So millions of Jews would be seeing Abraham's living faith put on display in the story.

And that is the application James 2 is also making to Christians. What do you think about that Eli?

I I think that that's good stuff, but it. Shane continues. I'm not sure if you are if your answer I.

Had it for Shane, but it won't he he. I don't know if he's a professor if he teaches at Church of Christ College. But I've invited to him to debate me on Marlon's channel or Donny's channel. I taught him anything he wants.

Let's do it. He told me he'll do it on this channel.

I don't think I've ever had a baptism before on this channel. Yeah, I don't I don't mind. Okay. So here here Shane asked again. So he has first of all, he says no, he's not related to the Shane that you know.

Clarification Shane. So Shane continues in your debate. Jeremiah you admitted that there are different categories of works.

Could you please elaborate more on that. Shane. You you got ahead of us, man. Cuz I definitely want to bring this up, but now is the best time as ever. Okay, cuz Eli I figured out a few things with the lingo scaling the language barrier with the Church of Christ.

Okay, so I think it's interesting that they think it's profound that we do have Categories for work. So I just want to tell people clearly what I'm talking about. For one. We have the works of God, which it's no surprise.

I'm a monergist and I would go to Ephesians 1 11 to say look Monergistically God is working out all things together. After the council of his will I just preach a sermon on this. By the way I would encourage people if they want to hear that develop and get a little rowdy in the pulpit, too.

So some people like that. So that's number one. You got the works of God the things that God is doing.

Okay.

That's gonna be important because they they will use the the term the work of God differently than what we mean. I mean, it's literally what God is doing. God is working by sustaining the creation by the word of his power.

Okay, and so then we have another category of human works human effort. Accomplishments that we participate in and do okay. So that's a category. Okay, so I want to continue to look under the category of human effort human achievement human works.

We are not saved by anything that we do anything that we can accomplish by our hands get up and walk and do using our feet. And then after we're saved after we're declared right before God by faith Which is firm trust from the heart in the perfect Savior, then we're created unto good works.

We're not gonna just do anything under the Sun that would be sinful because that's still under the domain of works. We're called to good works. Commandments that Christ has given us to do and participate in as we're Walking with him in sanctification.

And so yeah in the debate Gavin I think he was wanting me to say no works is the same every time without qualification. I said, yeah. There's a huge difference between Ephesians 2 9 and 10 and it's the difference of being saved.

We've been called out of darkness and now we can do things that are pleasing to God like the commandments that he's given us.

Excellent. Very good. Yeah works is an interesting thing. I was talking about this with my students just recently. Whereas we're not saved by our works, but we're our works are rewarded, aren't they? Yeah, Bible speaks about being rewarded for our work.

So they do play a function. We're not minimizing works. We just want to understand them in the proper context. So alright, Shane has one more question and then.

And then we'll continue back to the specifics of the debate. But can I shine another question to. Can we do a debate? Maybe in the near future.

Okay. Well he can she could uh, I don't mind. I'm done. Jeremiah's trying to debate everybody. Look at this. You see you're you're like a James. You're not James White, but you're James Brown. He's got a brown beard James, I'm right James Brown.

I just caught myself there first before I get into this one. Shane not Shane. Sorry. This is words of truth from Scripture. Jeremiah talks quick question. How hard was it not to laugh when unarmed Gavin looked like a deer in headlights?

So apparently I did not catch this part. But apparently there was a moment where you made a point that had awkward silence. Maybe it was kind of a. Not it not a cheap shot moment, but you had like a gotcha moment.

I.

Presume. Well, there are multiple. Okay, but I want to tell this individual I have enjoyed our talks. He's somebody that's reached out to me in light of some of my works. I will say me and this person have vast disagreements.

But we can actually laugh and be cordial with one another and so I appreciate that so much.

I thought Jeremiah you were going to challenge this person to a debate. So.

Would he I would but he has told me clearly he's done podcasts this individual and he thinks debates are sinful. And so we had a not debate on if debates were sinful or not in our phone. But it was good like I really appreciate it and I'm talking we for two hours.

We had we had a dialogue and I want to tell him something real fast. So as the pauses were coming up as I was asking challenging questions. My heart is to evangelize so not to belittle or make fun of somebody and that's one of the biggest feedback Eli I've gotten from people is they could feel my love towards Gavin.

Yeah, so that that was the goal.

And.

So and sometimes being caught in in as it like a deer in headlights is necessary to expose a False position right? All right, as long as we don't use that as opportunities to act sinfully towards people, right?

So very good. Excellent. All right. Well here we go back to Shane's question. Yeah.

Shane had a question here. How was Rahab hiding the spies? Justification before men.

So kind of similar principles earlier. For one the spies themselves are seeing Rahab's Faith put on display, but we see but we see them. The better application come out in James is to Chapter twos point of what true living faith looks like.

So we are the beneficiaries of seeing Rahab's faith. Because if you go back in the Old Testament to Joshua to I may be totally wrong on that. I think it's in Joshua 2. But if you look at the whole narrative.

She was a sinner. Acting like a sinner and God showed her grace in spite of her sinfulness.

So I won't preach a sermon, but it's awesome. But there there's a sermon there. So yeah, excellent all right, so Let's talk about the. I mean people can go and watch the opening statements and the rebuttals and things like that.

But I want to talk a little bit about where most people think the juice is and that's the cross-examination. So you got earlier with the wise disciple? YouTube channel Nate Sala, he's been on my show before I've been on his he's got an excellent series on his channel called the debate.

Teacher reacts and he talks about how debate supposed to happen. And so I agree with him. He says where all the action happens is in the cross-examination because in the cross-examination is where what debaters call clash?

Comes out where you see really the distinct and unique differences of both the sides on full display. Pressing up against each other where you can see the strength or lack thereof of a person's position.

So What was the nature of you in other words when you were in cross-examination? What kind of questions did you want to ask or did you ask so as to bring out clash. So as to show the strength of your position in the weakness of his with respect to the debate proposition.

So in answering this I want to tell you that two big things that I've learned from Nate Sala love his channel watch everything that pumps out there and I always want to frame the conversation. Well, whether I'm doing an opening whether I'm engaging in a rebuttal I want to remind the audience what we just heard and how it's either wrong and how I'm approaching it.

So framing the conversation he had a wonderful interview with William Lane Craig and they spent a lot of time talking about Framing the debate and so that's been invaluable.

Eli, it's a doctor. Craig is excellent at that. Oh, he's now I will remind you the three arguments I said at the beginning argument one Whatever begins a he's and you repeat sounded a robot. But that remind constant reminder you're right kind of says that framework and allows the audience to follow along.

And of course he does it in his own, you know, we're aiming the discussion. Yes, that's what glows in my mind each debate. I'm thinking okay remember to bring the audience along where I'm going and explain it.

Right. Thanks. The other the other thing that Nate has talked about is in cross-x is setting a garden path. Right, and we're agreeing. We're just walking looking at the garden together and then BAM you pin them up against the wall.

Right, and so this this is my debate tactic is I want to know my opponents position well enough where I could argue for it Beforehand, so this goes back to even what William Lane Craig has talked about is you can't over you can't over prepare for a debate.

Right, you're always just pumping in that time and you and I've talked about this how important that is to just put the necessary Preparation into the debate, right? And so what I want to do is know their position well enough to be like, okay What are the things that we can agree with along the way but then we're gonna I'm going to try to expose a massive Inconsistency, so my thinking is very presuppositional.

I want to ask them questions how they account for certain things that I think is either impossible or very very difficult.

Sure, excellent. So you're so. The nature of your questions is to really bring out what must be true in order for what you're saying over here to be true.

100 Yeah, let's let's set the garden path together. Let's agree. And then I'm about to ask you a question of consistency. So this is this goes back to apologetics in general. We're going to scale the language barriers.

We're going to define terms. We're going to look at proof text in context. And if people go back to the debate, not only every question He asked did I just develop the context every time and remind him of certain definitions of words, but then I press for consistency.

Right, and honestly, there's nothing magical like those three steps. Defining words looking at context and being consistent. That's my goal. Everywhere and that should be everybody's goal, right?

And and and laying the garden path to pin your opponent is not a disingenuous thing, right. Within the context of a debate I mean, that's the whole purpose of a cross-examination. The opponent is is is Welcome to do the same as well, right?

We want him to lay his garden path so that when he thinks he's got us we have an opportunity to explain. Right, so that's that's a good good technique. Maybe people can hopefully they'll keep that in mind.

That's that's that's important. Um, okay, we have one more quite well not one more. I have another question here.

Um.

Thomas Kank, I apologize if I mispronounced this one. Uh, how do you guys make sense of someone leaving the faith like tyler vela who seemed to be a strong precept guy? Uh, thanks. I'll be perfectly honest.

I would make sense out of it in the same way Tyler would say we should make sense out of it in light of calvinism. Tyler is convinced the bible teaches calvinism even if he is no longer a quote unquote believer.

And so he would have to grant our explanation that there were those who are with us. But they left us because they were never of us, right? Notice what the question is asking who seemed to be a strong precept guy.