Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons- Laborers' Podcast

Welcome back to The Laborer's Podcast. Thank you for joining us tonight. The topic tonight, Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons. Can we consider them brothers? We'll tackle that question next on The Laborer's Podcast.

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Joining us again. I just wanted to make this little bit announcement and say to those who are listening, we on the Truth in Love Network, on Labor's Podcast, everybody that's involved in this, we are not seeking popularity or platform.

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How you guys doing tonight? We're gonna we're gonna be getting together again live the end of April, last weekend of April, at Labors Conference in Knoxville, Tennessee. You can get all the information specifically at thelaborsconference .com, but you can also get through it to to that conference website through the Truth and Love Network website, truthandlovenetwork .com.

Register there. It's a free conference. It's gonna be on being empowered by the Holy Spirit, you as an individual, and the church. So we're looking forward to that, and get together again in person. So Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons, it's not something that we... some people see them more often than others, and so there's not this pressing need all the time to dive into the deep theological understanding of what they believe and what we believe, but maybe this could be a little treatise on... if you encounter one, you know, not many of us live near a temple or a Kingdom Hall, but if they come to our door... so let's answer some of those simple questions tonight.

What Is a Cult and Why Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons Fit the Label

The big one is, they carry a label with them, normally called a cult. Can anybody define what a cult is and see if we can decide if they fall under that label? I don't know what Webster calls a cult, but I think that there's a very layman's term way to define one, and that's this, simply this, is if Christ is not in charge of it, then it is something else.

It falls under the umbrella of a cult. Everything... and I know that sounds extremely exclusive, and that's because I meant for it to sound extremely exclusive. There's the church, and then there's everything else, and everything else, in my opinion, falls under the umbrella of cult.

And the short reason for that is because the church is the only faith that says that man is not in charge, and that man is not the center focal point of the religion, and that the only way our religion exists is because the founder of it is still alive.

So...

Well, to supply the Webster's Dictionary definition, which actually isn't too far off for what Big John just gave us. For real? For real. The definition that Webster's Dictionary gives is devotion to a belief that is unorthodox or false.

Praise God. Yeah, and I would just add to those a couple other things in research of that. It is a... typically a cult is a group of people that have a fixation on a earthly person. Like, so in the context of Mormons and the service witnesses, for like, for example, Mormons, you know, President Smith would be, like, he is the revelator.

He is the revelation in addition to Christ, you know what I mean? And so Mormonism is sustained on extra biblical revelation that is man-made. So therefore, that falls more under cult. So you have a generality of there's the three, four, or four major religions in the world.

Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, Judaism. And then you've got second tier religions that are under that, that may be animistic or people groups. But what falls in the cracks of what we consider orthodox religion, what falls in the cracks, anything that falls in the crack would be cult.

But I totally agree, from a Christian perspective, anything that's not Christian would be cult. You know, so that's where we totally agree. But if you go into the strictest definitions worldwide, that it would be anything that's falling in those cracks of unorthodoxy by large people groups, then that would be be cult.

So you got satanic cults or the occult, that's sort of those extremes. And then you do have some other religions like Mormonism and Jehovah's Witnesses, you know, that, you know, we would have to say that they fall under that definition of occult for sure.

The Origins of Jehovah's Witnesses and the Roots of Mormonism

Well, that kind of leads us into our first two questions. Who are the Jehovah's Witness and Mormons and a brief history of them? And let me preface that by saying, just mentioning a little something that I feel like I recognized in both of these.

And hopefully we can, when we end up this thing, we can circle back to this question or this observation because I think it will help. I think it will help a lot of people that are listening. So in looking at the origins of Jehovah's Witness and Mormons, it seemed like you were talking about that leader that they follow, that they idolize.

It seemed like there was a disillusionment. What they had in common was a disillusionment with mainstream Christianity, that they saw all these differences between the denominations, between the different churches, religions, and they would just become disillusioned, disheartened, and so they backed off, lost their faith, and somehow got connected with some bad teaching, which led to the beginning origins of this.

And so we fall into that, and I think that's a...many, many, many people fall into that disillusionment. You know, Church of God and Baptist and Presbyterian, non-denominational, you know, they all have different beliefs.

Which one's right? And so it's easy for someone to fall into that disillusionment and just become discouraged. And I think that's one of the key things that we do as a group, is that we show, hey, there's foundations.

There's things that are non-negotiable that we believe in, that we lock arms together with, and those chains can't be broken. But, you know, there's secondary issues and things that we tussle together with to try to understand God's Word better.

And so we we're showing people that there's a way out of that disillusionment, I think, when we get together and tackle some of those things. So who wants to start first? We'll start with the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Kind of their origin, a little bit of history. All right, Tyler. I know this is your.

Wheelhouse. I ain't about to step on this moment. Actually, this is not my wheelhouse. What? We don't really have Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons down in my.

Neck of the woods. Independent fundamental Baptists, right? Yeah, we got.

The IFB and the satanic stuff. I don't mind taking a stab at Jehovah's Witnesses. Part of my.

Senior thesis was a cults class, and I ended up doing one of my final study papers in my undergraduate was on cults, and Jehovah's Witnesses is who I chose. And so I've attended services and Jehovah's Witness churches and our buildings, rather, because I wouldn't call it a church, but buildings.

They call it a church or a building, a gathering. So they've got kind of a unique history. It's pretty splintered, honestly. It's hard to track all the splinters that's been through history, but they go back to, and I was digging up some of my old paperwork and through some of this stuff, but they go back to the 1870s.

There was a movement in the late 1800s that was called a Bible student movement. So there is orthodoxy in some roots based upon the same Bible we use, and that's one thing that we need to realize is what we would classify, and it's sort of an oxymoron, but what we would classify as a Christian cult is a group of people that still use the name of Jesus, say that they believe at least in some form of Jesus, and both groups that we're talking about tonight still use Jesus, but then it's a lot like the Gnostics that John was writing against even in the New Testament, that immediately there were people that were coming out with different doctrines on who Jesus was and what Jesus stood for, and that's where we're warned repeatedly.

Even the earliest of saints, Jesus warned, like I'm preaching through Luke 21 right now in the Olivet Discourse, and even right prior to that, Jesus immediately warns his disciples, beware because there's going to be false teachers come in immediately.

There's going to be wolves in sheep's clothing, and if they say, I'm over here, don't chase after them. If they say that the Son of Man has come here, don't chase after them, and here's the things to look for.

So that's why it was deceptive a lot of times in the beginning, though, was because it did have the Bible. I mean, that was the term that they used was Bible student movement, and so they called it a restorationist, and so Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses, too, from a historical side, were exactly what you said.

A lot of them were disgruntled with the early church, but in that 1800 mark and early 1900s, they were disgruntled and disillusioned some with church, with religion. It didn't feel like it was what it's supposed to be there for the Jehovah's Witnesses, and not to step on somebody else's answer, but the Mormons kind of paralleled that because part of the foundational piece for the Mormons is not just a restoration of the church.

It's actually a repudiation. It's like they reject Orthodox Christianity because now they believe that they have the new revelation that after the Apostles died, they believe the church went full-on apostasy, and then Joseph Smith came, and when he had his revelation, then that did away with Orthodox Christianity, and now they have the true Christianity is what they would say, and so both of these, though, have I wouldn't mind using the term Christian roots.

They were people that were supposedly followers of Christ and then deceived, and so that's a really serious matter that we should all be careful of, and so that was for Jehovah's Witnesses late 1800s, early 1900s, and then around 1916, there was some splits.

The guy that was part of the original restorationists was Charles Russell, was the guy that you can look him up. He was part of that original group, and then after he died, Joseph Rutherford, or they called him the judge, he kind of began to lead the way, and he took control of the Watchtower, which is their publication.

That's their doctrinal publication for Jehovah's Witnesses, and so most of the time Jehovah's Witnesses, in their training, they are taught to quote Scripture, but their Scripture is really defined by what the Watchtower says, and so that has been the major publication, the major doctrinal driver from the beginning, basically from the very early 1900s when that came out, and so then after that, the judge really began to institute doctrinal changes, so there was some level of orthodoxy in the original Jehovah's Witnesses, but then after Russell died, then when Rutherford took over, that's where you see a lot of change in the organization.

There's actually multiple splits in the organization at that time, but that really represents more of where Jehovah's Witnesses are today. It originates from that, and so that would still be in around 1931 is when the name Jehovah's Witnesses was actually officially adopted, so that term Jehovah's Witnesses put a stamp on it from going back from the Bible Student Association, or this morphism.

1931 is when the name was adopted, and that officially separated them from those original, what we would call Jehovah's Witnesses today, or those original founders that completely cut ties from that original group, and now this is where you have what we would consider officially a cult.

Some of those early people that weren't going by the term Jehovah's Witness, we would have called them weird Christians probably. We would have been like, something's wrong here, but at least they're fighting with the Bible.

By 1931, Watchtower had become the orthodox authority, and then that secret group who's putting out those publications became what, when I use the term a while ago, fixation, those that were followers of Jehovah's Witness became asphyxiated with whatever the Watchtower said, so then Watchtower writings took more authority than scripture, so then that's where they get no blood transfusions, for example, or no celebrating any holidays or birthdays at all, those kind of situations.

All that's come from Watchtower teaching, and it is absolutely appalling how far out of context that the Watchtower will do. They'll take one little snippet from something and make it doctrine, and then all of a sudden, that becomes the rule of the church, so now that also fits in the second part of the definition of a cult, not only a fixation with a person or an object or a teaching of the Watchtower, it's really what the fixation is, but then it's additional revelation outside of scripture, so you have a continuation of revelation, a continuation that's outside of the orthodoxy of ancient writings, biblical writings, and so then they begin to make up their own rules for salvation.

Like one example, the Jehovah's Witnesses multiple times have predicted the second coming of Christ. Multiple times, obviously, it didn't happen, and then when it didn't happen, there was always an excuse, and then just as for the sake of time, you can go back and look.

I can't remember the exact date, but there was a date that was set that supposedly the second coming of Christ did come, but it only came to this one small group, and he met with them and told them what to do, and then left and went back to heaven and left them in charge, and so now that group behind the scenes takes over Watchtower, and now their cultist practices come out, and they tell this story, and then the gullibility of people just to believe these things is just unbelievable, so in that is where they got, though, there's only 144 ,000 that's going to be saved, because back then there wasn't more than 144 ,000 Jehovah's Witnesses, but then Jehovah's Witnesses surpassed the number of 144 ,000, and they're like, we'll know that then they changed their doctrine again.

We'll know the 144 ,000 will rule with Christ in heaven, and the rest of us will then rule on the earth, but we're Jehovah's Witnesses. We're not going to go to hell, but there was this season, there was actually a competition, so then whoever has the greatest works will be judged of who the actual 144 ,000 is, and that's still in place to a degree, because that's how they become rulers and reigners is based on their merit and how much works they have and how many conversions they have, and so that's why you have so many door knockers, and they have become extremely good salesmen.

A matter of fact, their number one target is Southern Baptists, because they believe that Southern Baptists are the most biblically illiterate, and they're the easiest to convince, because they can come in and show them X number of scriptures, so they target people that they feel like are illiterate, not only biblically, but also illiterate period, so they pray on the weak.

They pray on people who can't read and go by more word of mouth, and they're very, very good, so historically, there's a bunch more that could be said, but I'll close with this. Literally, when you go to one of their church services, they are the nicest, most welcoming people that you've ever met in your life.

They will literally chase you down in the parking lot to shake your hand and say, we're so glad you're here today, so they're very serious about it, and I think there is something inside of them that they're trying to build an accolade, build a work, but then I also do think there is something that's very genuine.

The second thing, though, when you go there, they literally have different kinds of services, but the couple that I attended was broken up in different segments, and they literally have a kitchen table, a lot of them set up on their stage to where they do mock conversations of how to refute a Christian's argument with Scripture that's taken out of context.

They actually practice taking things out of context and how to manipulate situations, and so it's pretty neat to see that and to experience that, and then when they found out why I was there, I wasn't near quite as welcome because I told them, but eventually they said, well, why are you here, and I got to go into one of the back rooms, which is where they have their form of catechism or discipleship, and they start asking you questions, and when I told them, then I was asked to go ahead and step out of that room and just remain in the general populace, in the general service, and they said, you're welcome to stay and watch the dialogues in that manner, but I wasn't allowed behind the scenes, and so again, that's a practice of cultish things because they don't want someone who's not pursuing something to be devout in their religion, they don't want to expose that, so anyways, that's real quick.

There's so many details I left out. I mean, you could talk a long time, but like I said, it's back in the late 1800s and early 1900s is where it really got its roots, and several changes throughout history as.

You go, so. Just to find real quick what you mean by illiterate. You're talking about they view Southern Baptists as most illiterate. What do you mean by.

That? They view Southern Baptists as biblically illiterate, so in other words, Southern Baptists have a, they got a lot of grandpa and grandma religion is what they would say, so Southern Baptists can quote John 316, and they can quote Romans 323, they can quote most of the Romans Road, and so they've got enough, and I'm talking generally speaking, okay?

This is not all, so just know that, but it was interesting in my research as I began to interview Jehovah's Witnesses, how many of them were former Southern Baptists that had been duped into coming over, and I couldn't change their mind, because they were so deceived, even after I interviewed them for research purposes, of course, I tried to share the gospel with them, and it was amazing, but as I began to talk to those people, that's what I found out.

They had the religion of their parents and their grandparents, and so they had the tradition of Southern Baptist religion, but as far as really being knowledgeable in the whole counsel of scripture, they were not, and so there was enough tradition to have a conviction that they should be devoted to religion, devoted to Christ, but they had a Sunday morning religion, for lack of better terms, and so Jehovah's Witnesses know that, so then they come in and offer them something serious, something heavy, something that like you are going to earn your salvation, and this is how, and those kind of things, and so then people are like, yeah, I've always known that there was something in me that I should be doing more, and so this must be it, but then what I found out when I went back and interviewed some of those other Southern Baptist churches that they came from, what I found out was that those Southern Baptist churches had no form of ongoing discipleship other than Sunday morning and Sunday school.

There was no ongoing situations to walk with people in discipleship. That was first, and then second of all, they had no conduit for authentic mission, so they viewed missions as giving money, but they never challenged or provided a pathway for their church members to actually be on mission and do something with the gospel, so it was more come to Sunday morning church, give your tithe, go to Sunday school, be here where the church doors are open, and if you do that, you're a good Christian, and so for those folks, they knew something was missing, and so Jehovah's Witnesses come in and say, okay, we're going to manipulate them with scripture.

We're going to give them serious discipleship, which they do in their format, and we're going to hold them accountable that they're going to go out and be on mission, that they're going to do something for Jehovah, and people buy into it, so it's pretty sad how easily it's deceived in that, so they prey on and target people who they feel like are biblically illiterate, and then literally people who are illiterate, people who can't read or write, and they are dependent more on traditions or folklore or word of mouth gospel.

That's why you see, and this is not a slam on any of them, but this is why you see tremendous attraction with Jehovah's Witnesses in South America and Central America and some of the third world countries, like in our village where we have a church plant and school, Jehovah's Witnesses try to come in there because they had identified that 80 of our village couldn't read or write, but fortunately the gospel had taken root there, and it didn't last, and so I praise God for that, but that's what they target, because then they feel like it's, if they can get down at your dinner table and sit down in front of you and make their presentation, they feel like they.

Can sell you on it. So it sounds like you're saying that in your experience, oftentimes it's almost like the Jehovah's Witnesses prey on a deficiency in the church. Correct. And then supplement that with lies.

Correct. Absolutely. Which makes it a cult,.

That again, that is, every cult would do that. Every cult would seek to exploit, that every work of the enemy, to kill, steal, destroy, and deceive, that is exactly where they target.

For sure. Agreed. Maybe to an degree that transition may have not been that difficult, because if you reflect and think about it just for a second, maybe the Southern Baptist as an example, we're talking about a people, there will be a sample of people within the Southern Baptist Convention that are biblically illiterate, and they not only don't know why they believe what they believe, but they don't know what they believe, much less why they believe what they believe.

And so you have a single pastor system come in and they do whatever he tells them is the best means method and brings in doctrine, and it's almost like a cultish type leader. And so we don't like to look at it like that, but it kind of happens that way.

Exactly. Just to try to lighten the mood just a little bit, when I was looking into this, and I think, you correct me if I'm wrong, what I was seeing was that early on in Charles Russell's life, he come in contact with a guy named William Miller.

And so I was going to pick on Dan and myself, bad things happen when a Presbyterian and a Baptist get together. Something I heard about the Jehovah's Witnesses, I'm curious if this is true. It was taught to me that a religion more or less started because they didn't like the concept of hell.

Is there a legitimacy to that? I think that was, and Jonathan, you correct me if I'm wrong, I think that was as leadership changed, that was one of the doctrines that had changed. And I think that William Miller guy, that was one of the things that he didn't like, and he took out of the Bible.

William Miller was either a founder or at the beginning of this Adventist movement, and he was a Baptist minister, and he was predicting Jesus to return. And that was an attraction also to Charles Russell.

And Charles Russell, the reason I said that Baptists and Presbyterians, Miller come from a Baptist and Russell come from a Presbyterian. So they got together, and I think Russell studied from Miller for a while.

Just be careful. Yeah, be careful. Yeah, be careful. So when I hear stuff like this, I'm a bullet down to the essence of it kind of fellow. I don't have the brain power to be computing all this stuff.

It sounds to me like Scripture's authenticity and authority are brought into question. People take out the things they don't like, and if you remove, let's just say you remove hail from your theology, right?

Then how is God just? If God can't be just, then how is God holy, right? Where is there an enemy if there is no place of eternal punishment, right? You see the building block? This is a warning to everybody.

You have to guard your theology with Scripture against flesh and blood's desire. I mean, who likes the idea of hail, right? I mean, let's just be honest about it. I mean, who sit around and think you want somebody to go to hell?

I think that if we're being honest, half of the reason most Christians share the gospel is because they legitimately don't want to see their friends and neighbors go to hell, almost to a fault, where they're more concerned about their neighbor being punished more than they're concerned about Christ being glorified in the gospel message, right?

And that's dangerous, and that's the reason I bring it up like that, not to put a wet blanket on anything, but that's a danger that ministers, everyone on this computer screen, and everybody listening, if you're not careful, you run into the danger of that.

If you begin to twist your Scripture or your gospel message to either fit your societal view or to be easy on people or to be hard on people, right? I mean, let's look at it both sides. If you use Scripture as a weapon against people to make them act the way that you want them to act, that's sinful.

If you twist Scripture to make it seem less severe than it actually is, then you're being sinful. It's not our job to dictate the way Scripture is interpreted by folks. It's our job to interpret Scripture and say, this is what, like Billy Ray Collins says, everybody who knows knows, right?

Come get the facts as best we understand them, and that's what we got. And if we're not careful, every one of us can fall into this trap because every one of us are wicked, vile creatures left.

To our own devices. Yeah, well, we talked about Satan here a couple weeks ago and the god of this world, and that's one of the things that says about the enemy that he's been a liar from the beginning.

That's right. And so we put colors on lies. Well, this is like a little white lie, or this is a yellow lie, or this is a big lie. It's a black lie or whatever we want to put,.

Whatever color you attach to it. I'm colorblind, so they're just lies.

Lie is a lie. But that's the thing that happens in cults is it's a small lie that's believable that grows. And so, for example, it feels a whole lot better speaking about hell. It feels a whole lot better to tell someone that, no, there's not hell, but you're just annihilated.

They believe that if you die apart from Jehovah, then you're just annihilated. You know what I mean? So that's a big part of it. You know what I'm saying? Annihilation. So anyways.

Scripture in context, right? Peter says that scripture is not given to private interpretation or not. We're not given an opportunity to have our truth. That word, that phrase, man, that really grinds my grits.

Every time I hear somebody say, speak your truth, I think, what in the world kind of nonsense is that, right? Let me add this just to close out on my part.

So the Jehovah's, and I meant to say this earlier, just so everyone knows if someone watches this podcast, do be careful. They have their own set of scriptures. They have their own Bible called the New World Translation.

Okay. NWT. We have all kinds of, they think ours are corrupt. That's right. And, and so they, so for example it is very, very subtle changes. Okay. That was, that was part of our research and, but it was very, very subtle changes.

They do remove things about blood in there. They do remove things about Jesus as being the son of God is sometimes they'll say he is a son of God versus the son of God. Different, different things like that.

It's very, very subtle, like really, really subtle.

One thing I looked into was their handling of John. One, one in the beginning was the word and.

The word was with God or was a God. A God. That's right. Exactly. So that's real subtle. Does that make sense? Like if you don't have scripture memorized and that's going back to biblically illiterate people that, that they might've heard these things said in general through church at some point in time.

So it's there. So they have enough, enough remnant of hearing some scriptures, but then they pick up this and be like, Oh, this must be what it is. And so it's extremely subtle. It's extremely, um, but, but, but, but a small lie is my whole point.

It's still a lie that completely inverts the whole doctrine. That's right. It corrupts the whole doctrine. So, so going back to echo, that's what made me think about what John was saying, guys, if, if you new world translation, if you see it laying around, just know what it is.

It is not the, it is not the infallible inspired word of God. It is a man-made lie that is, that is rotten to the core that uses the skin of God's word, if you will. But it, but it is a wolf in sheep's clothing that that scripture in of itself, or not even, I didn't call it scripture, but their set of what they would call scripture is an epitome of what a wolf in sheep's clothing is that it's, it's designed to kill, steal, and destroy.

And, um, and it is leading thousands of people to hell.

So sounds like it'd be good kindling for the brush fire.

Well, just to pick up on something that you said earlier, you talk about how, where their foundations come from, where we're Christian, where we're biblical. And so one of the warnings is they will use same language.

Absolutely. And I like, I like to think about what you say when somebody asks you, um, are you a Calvinist? What do you.

Always tell them? Why don't you tell me what a Calvinist is? Yeah. What do you mean by that?

So that's what you have to ask when they're using that same familiar language that we use and we.

What, what do you mean by that? That's right. Absolutely. And they'll say, I'm a Christian. They'll say, yeah, I love Jesus. I believe Jesus, uh, was the son of God. They'll, they'll tell you that, but then they won't tell you that Jesus is God.

And like, that's one of the, I mean, I know we may get into that in a minute, but like one of their major doctrinal things is they don't believe in the Trinity. You know, they don't believe in God, the father, son, and Holy spirit as, as, as God.

Uh, they, they believe in Jehovah. They believe Jesus was the son of God, but not God. And they don't believe in the Holy spirit as the person of the Holy spirit. The Holy spirit is just the manifestation of the power of God.

So, so it's more of an essence versus the person of the Holy spirit. And so, so they totally like reject the, the ideology of, of God, the father, God, the son and God, the Holy spirit. They, they reject.

So, so, so that's just, but they'll use the same language. They'll say, yeah, Jesus was the son of God. Yeah. Holy spirit. Yeah. We believe in the Holy spirit. Yeah. That's the, that's the power of God, the Holy spirit.

And I'm sure we'll, we'll use that term when we're preaching in the conference coming up here at the end of, end of April, that, that we would say, yes, the Holy spirit, that's, that's the power of God in us.

You know what I mean? We would say that and they would say yes and amen. But then like you said, Robert, you got to press in and be like, no, okay, no, tell me what you mean by that versus what I mean.

And, and so it's really subtle. Um, and, but it is, it is the, both of their evangelism efforts and they're in their religions and it is still evangelism. This just, uh, not evangelism, you know, um, it's an effort to win people to their, it is remarkably, uh, at least in the beginning, uh, very similar to the language of, of orthodox Christianity.

And so, so I hope people listen to this and would be ever so careful to, to recognize it for what it is, that it is, it is lies from hell. So it's you to clone. Love you, buddy. Can't wait to see you.

Absolutely. So Joe was a witness. They don't believe that Jesus is God. Just another nugget of truth. They believe that Jesus was Michael, the archangel. Now this other group that we're looking at, they do believe that Jesus is God.

Now, hold on. But what do they mean by that? Hold on. Yeah. Cause I, this is an area that I have some experience ministering to go with it. So, uh, just here recently. Uh, so just here recently I was witnessing to a Mormon at a guitar place up in, uh, Charlotte was picking on guitar and, uh, and I was playing gospel songs, talking to him about different things.

Of course, I'm just really more or less waiting on opportunity to slap him with Jesus. You know what I mean? But anyway, as a, as we get to that part, that's exactly right. Yeah. Yeah. I wasn't going to lay hands on him unless he was sick.

Right. Anyway, uh, as we were talking, he, he brought up that he was LDS. Uh, do I need to paraphrase or to break that down or everybody you think? Okay. So the, uh, the Mormons also known as the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or LDS for short are another occult group, some kind of a sex cult where they believe that, uh, if you do right in their world, you get your own world that you get to be God over that, uh, Jesus and Lucifer are brothers and, uh, their God's name is something else.

It escapes me at the moment. Uh, all this course was revealed to a man in secret by an angel named Moroni, uh, up in Ohio. I think originally I'm going from memory here based off some of the conversations I've had with several of them over the years.

Uh, and he would say, we believe Jesus is divine, but we can't say he is the God. So it's not dissimilar. You understand from saying Jesus is a God. So what they're doing is they're taking Christ's holiness, his otherness, his, his divinity, and they're dragging it down and putting it into a place of question.

Anything that pulls Christ, I'm done tearing my stuff up. Anything that pulls Christ off of his throne and seeks to exalt another is a cult period. I don't care if it's the Pope. I don't care if it's whoever, uh, is whatever that Anderson boys church is, wherever it's at, or he's the leader of it.

I don't care what it is. I don't, I don't care if it's the lizard people of Papua, New Guinea, if, if it seeks to honor something above Christ, it's a cult right now, his, his understanding of scripture was so, so abused to him that you, you're talking to him and he was like, see, he would say things like, Holy spirit tells me this.

He never said the term, the Holy spirit. That's important because when you say the, you're talking about a defining article. Now we're talking about none other than God. So if you say Holy spirit, you're taking away the definite article of that statement.