Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons- Laborers' Podcast

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The topic tonight, Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons.

Can we consider them brothers?

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So Jehovah's Witnesses and

Mormons, it's not something

that we... some people see them more often than

others, and so there's not this pressing need all the time to

dive into the deep theological understanding of what they

believe and what we believe, but maybe this could be a little treatise on...

if you encounter one, you know, not many of us live near a temple or a

Kingdom Hall, but if they come to our door... so let's answer some of those simple questions

tonight.

The big one is, they carry a label with them, normally called a

cult.

Can anybody define what a cult is and see if we can

decide if they fall under that label?

I don't know what Webster calls a cult, but I think that there's a

very layman's term way to define one, and that's this, simply this,

is if Christ is not in charge of it,

then it is something else.

It falls under the umbrella of a cult.

Everything... and I know that sounds extremely exclusive, and that's because I meant for it to sound

extremely exclusive.

There's the church, and then there's everything else, and everything else, in my opinion, falls under the

umbrella of cult.

And the short reason for that is because the church is the only faith that

says that man is not in charge, and that man is not the center focal point of

the religion, and that the only way our religion exists is because the

founder of it is still alive.

So...

Well, to supply the Webster's Dictionary definition, which actually isn't too far

off for what Big John just gave us.

For real?

For real.

The definition that Webster's Dictionary gives is devotion to a belief that is

unorthodox or false.

Praise God.

Yeah, and I would just add to those a couple other things in research of that.

It is a... typically a cult is a group of people that have a

fixation on a earthly

person.

Like, so in the context of Mormons and the service

witnesses, for like, for example, Mormons, you know, President Smith would be, like,

he is the revelator.

He is the revelation in addition to Christ, you know what I mean?

And so Mormonism is sustained

on extra biblical revelation that is man -made.

So therefore, that falls more under cult.

So you have a generality of there's the three,

four, or four major religions in the world.

Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, Judaism.

And then you've got second tier religions that are under that, that may be animistic or

people groups.

But what falls in the cracks of what we consider orthodox religion, what falls in the cracks, anything that

falls in the crack would be cult.

But I totally agree, from a Christian perspective, anything that's not Christian would be cult.

You know, so that's where we totally agree.

But if you go into the strictest definitions worldwide, that it would be anything that's falling in those

cracks of unorthodoxy by large people groups, then that would be be cult.

So you got satanic cults or the occult, that's sort of those extremes.

And then you do have some other religions like Mormonism and Jehovah's Witnesses, you know, that,

you know, we would have to say that they fall under that definition of occult for sure.

Well, that kind of leads us into our first two questions.

Who are the Jehovah's Witness and Mormons and a brief history of them?

And let me preface that by saying, just mentioning a little something that I feel like I recognized

in both of these.

And hopefully we can, when we end up this thing, we can circle

back to this question or this observation because I think it will help.

I think it will help a lot of people that are listening.

So in looking at the origins of Jehovah's Witness and Mormons, it seemed like you were talking about

that leader that they follow, that they idolize.

It seemed like there was a disillusionment.

What they had in common was a disillusionment with mainstream Christianity, that

they saw all these differences between the denominations, between the different churches, religions,

and they would just become disillusioned, disheartened, and so they backed off, lost their faith,

and somehow got connected with some bad teaching, which led to

the beginning origins of this.

And so we fall into that, and I think that's a...many, many, many people fall into that disillusionment.

You know, Church of God and Baptist and Presbyterian, non -denominational, you know, they

all have different beliefs.

Which one's right?

And so it's easy for someone to fall into that disillusionment and just become discouraged.

And I think that's one of the key things that we do as a group, is that we show, hey, there's

foundations.

There's things that are non -negotiable that we believe in, that we lock arms together with,

and those chains can't be broken.

But, you know, there's secondary issues and things that we tussle together with to try to

understand God's Word better.

And so we we're showing people that there's a way out of that disillusionment, I

think, when we get together and tackle some of those things.

So who wants to start first?

We'll start with the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Kind of their origin, a little bit of history.

All right, Tyler.

I know this is your.

Wheelhouse.

I ain't about to step on this moment.

Actually, this is not my wheelhouse.

What?

We don't really have Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons down in my.

Neck of the woods.

Independent fundamental Baptists, right?

Yeah, we got.

The IFB and the satanic stuff.

I don't mind taking a stab at Jehovah's

Witnesses.

Part of my.

Senior thesis was a cults class, and I ended up doing

one of my final study papers in my undergraduate was on

cults, and Jehovah's Witnesses is who I chose.

And so I've attended services and Jehovah's Witness churches

and our buildings, rather, because I wouldn't call it a church, but buildings.

They call it a church or a building, a gathering.

So they've got kind of a unique history.

It's pretty splintered, honestly.

It's hard to track all the splinters that's been through history, but they go back to,

and I was digging up some of my old paperwork and through some of this stuff, but they go back

to the 1870s.

There was a movement in the late 1800s that was called a Bible student

movement.

So there is orthodoxy in some roots

based upon the same Bible we use, and that's one thing that we need to realize is

what we would classify, and it's sort of an oxymoron, but what we would classify as a Christian cult is a

group of people that still use the name of Jesus, say that they believe at least in some form of

Jesus, and both groups that we're talking about tonight still use Jesus, but then it's a

lot like the Gnostics that John was writing against even in the New Testament, that immediately there were people that were coming

out with different doctrines on who Jesus was and what Jesus stood for,

and that's where we're warned repeatedly.

Even the earliest of saints, Jesus warned, like I'm preaching through Luke 21 right now in the Olivet

Discourse, and even right prior to that, Jesus immediately warns his

disciples, beware because there's going to be false teachers come in immediately.

There's going to be wolves in sheep's clothing, and if they say, I'm over here, don't chase after them.

If they say that the Son of Man has come here, don't chase after them, and here's the things to look for.

So that's why it was deceptive a lot of times in the beginning, though, was

because it did have the Bible.

I mean, that was the term that they used was Bible student movement, and so

they called it a restorationist, and so Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses, too, from a historical side,

were exactly what you said.

A lot of them were disgruntled with the early church, but in that 1800 mark and early

1900s, they were disgruntled and disillusioned some with church, with religion.

It didn't feel like it was what it's supposed to be there for the Jehovah's Witnesses, and not to

step on somebody else's answer, but the Mormons kind of paralleled that because part of the foundational

piece for the Mormons is not just a restoration of the church.

It's actually a repudiation.

It's like they reject Orthodox Christianity because now they believe that they

have the new revelation that after the Apostles died, they believe the church went full -on

apostasy, and then Joseph Smith came, and when he had his revelation, then

that did away with Orthodox Christianity, and now they have the true Christianity is what they would say,

and so both of these, though, have I wouldn't mind

using the term Christian roots.

They were people that were supposedly followers of Christ and then deceived,

and so that's a really serious matter that we should all be careful of, and so that was

for Jehovah's Witnesses late 1800s, early 1900s, and then

around 1916, there was some splits.

The guy that was part of the original restorationists was Charles Russell, was the

guy that you can look him up.

He was part of that original group, and then after he died, Joseph

Rutherford, or they called him the judge, he kind of began to lead the

way, and he took control of the Watchtower, which is

their publication.

That's their doctrinal publication for Jehovah's Witnesses, and so most of the time Jehovah's

Witnesses, in their training, they are taught to quote Scripture, but their

Scripture is really defined by what the Watchtower says, and so

that has been the major publication, the major doctrinal driver

from the beginning, basically from the very early 1900s when that came out, and so

then after that, the judge really began to institute doctrinal changes,

so there was some level of orthodoxy in the original Jehovah's Witnesses, but

then after Russell died,

then when Rutherford took over, that's where you see

a lot of change in the organization.

There's actually multiple splits in the organization at that time, but that really represents more

of where Jehovah's Witnesses are today.

It originates from that, and so that would still be in

around 1931 is when the name Jehovah's Witnesses was actually officially adopted,

so that term Jehovah's Witnesses put a stamp on it from

going back from the Bible Student Association, or this morphism.

1931 is when the name was adopted, and that officially

separated them from those original, what we would call Jehovah's Witnesses today, or those original founders that

completely cut ties from that original group, and now this is where you have

what we would consider officially a cult.

Some of those early people that weren't going by the term Jehovah's Witness,

we would have called them weird Christians probably.

We would have been like, something's wrong here, but at least they're fighting

with the Bible.

By 1931, Watchtower had become the orthodox

authority, and then that secret group who's putting out those publications became

what, when I use the term a while ago, fixation, those that were followers of Jehovah's Witness became

asphyxiated with whatever the Watchtower said, so then Watchtower writings

took more authority than scripture, so then that's where they get no blood

transfusions, for example, or no celebrating any holidays or birthdays at all,

those kind of situations.

All that's come from Watchtower teaching, and it is

absolutely appalling how far out of context that the

Watchtower will do.

They'll take one little snippet from something and make it doctrine, and then all of a sudden, that becomes the

rule of the church, so now that also fits in the second part of the definition of a cult, not only a fixation

with a person or an object or a teaching of the Watchtower, it's really what the fixation is, but then

it's additional revelation outside of scripture, so you have a

continuation of revelation, a continuation that's outside of the orthodoxy of

ancient writings, biblical writings, and so then

they begin to make up their own rules for salvation.

Like one example, the Jehovah's Witnesses multiple

times have predicted the second coming of Christ.

Multiple times, obviously, it didn't happen, and then when it didn't happen,

there was always an excuse, and then just as for the sake of time, you can go back and look.

I can't remember the exact date, but there was a date that was set that supposedly the second coming of Christ did come,

but it only came to this one small group, and he met with them and told them what to do, and then left and went back to heaven and left them in

charge, and so now that group behind the scenes takes over Watchtower,

and now their cultist practices come out, and they tell this story, and then the gullibility of people

just to believe these things is just unbelievable, so in that is

where they got, though, there's only 144 ,000 that's going to be saved, because back then there wasn't

more than 144 ,000 Jehovah's Witnesses, but then Jehovah's Witnesses surpassed

the number of 144 ,000, and they're like, we'll know that then they changed their doctrine again.

We'll know the 144 ,000 will rule with Christ in heaven, and the rest of us will then rule on the earth,

but we're Jehovah's Witnesses.

We're not going to go to hell, but there was this season, there was actually a competition, so then whoever has the greatest

works will be judged of who the actual 144 ,000 is, and that's still in place to a degree,

because that's how they become rulers and reigners is based on their merit and how much

works they have and how many conversions they have, and so that's why you have so many door knockers,

and they have become extremely good salesmen.

A matter of fact, their number one target is Southern Baptists, because they believe that Southern Baptists are the most biblically illiterate,

and they're the easiest to convince, because they can come in and show them X number of scriptures, so they

target people that they feel like are illiterate, not only biblically, but also illiterate

period, so they pray on the weak.

They pray on people who can't read and go by more word of mouth,

and they're very, very good, so historically, there's a

bunch more that could be said, but I'll close with this.

Literally, when you go to one of their church services, they are the nicest,

most welcoming people that you've ever met in your life.

They will literally chase you down in the parking lot to shake your hand and say, we're so glad you're here today,

so they're very serious about it, and I think there is something inside of them that they're

trying to build an accolade, build a work, but then I also do think there is something that's very genuine.

The second thing, though, when you go there, they literally have different kinds of services, but

the couple that I attended was broken up in different segments, and they literally have a kitchen table,

a lot of them set up on their stage to where they do mock conversations

of how to refute a Christian's argument with Scripture that's taken out of

context.

They actually practice taking things out of context and how to manipulate situations, and so it's pretty neat

to see that and to experience that, and then

when they found out why I was there, I wasn't near quite as welcome

because I told them, but eventually they said, well, why are you here, and I got to go into one of the back rooms,

which is where they have their form of catechism or discipleship, and they start asking you questions, and when I told them,

then I was asked to go ahead and step out of that room and just remain in the general populace, in the general

service, and they said, you're welcome to stay and watch the dialogues in that manner, but I wasn't allowed

behind the scenes, and so again, that's a practice of cultish things because they don't

want someone who's not pursuing something to be devout in their religion,

they don't want to expose that, so anyways, that's real quick.

There's so many details I left out.

I mean, you could talk a long time, but like I said, it's back in the late 1800s and early

1900s is where it really got its roots, and several changes throughout history as.

You go, so.

Just to find real quick what you mean by illiterate.

You're talking about they view Southern Baptists as most illiterate.

What do you mean by.

That?

They view Southern Baptists as biblically illiterate, so in other words, Southern Baptists have

a, they got a lot of grandpa and grandma religion is what they would say,

so Southern Baptists can quote John 316, and they can quote Romans 323, they can quote most of

the Romans Road, and so they've got enough, and I'm talking generally

speaking, okay?

This is not all, so just know that, but it was interesting in my research

as I began to interview Jehovah's Witnesses, how many of them were former Southern Baptists that had been

duped into coming over, and I couldn't change their mind,

because they were so deceived, even after I interviewed them for research purposes,

of course, I tried to share the gospel with them, and it was amazing, but

as I began to talk to those people, that's what I found out.

They had the religion of their parents and their grandparents, and so they had the tradition of Southern

Baptist religion, but as far as really being knowledgeable in the whole counsel of scripture,

they were not, and so there was enough tradition to have a

conviction that they should be devoted to religion, devoted to Christ,

but they had a Sunday morning religion, for lack of better terms, and so Jehovah's Witnesses know that, so then they come in and

offer them something serious, something heavy, something that

like you are going to earn your salvation, and this is how, and those kind of things, and so then people are like,

yeah, I've always known that there was something in me that I should be doing more, and so this must be it,

but then what I found out when I went back and interviewed some of those other Southern Baptist churches that they came from, what

I found out was that those Southern Baptist churches had no

form of ongoing discipleship other than Sunday morning and Sunday school.

There was no ongoing situations to walk with people in discipleship.

That was first, and then second of all, they had no conduit for authentic mission, so they

viewed missions as giving money, but they never challenged or provided a

pathway for their church members to actually be on mission and do

something with the gospel, so it was more come to Sunday morning church, give your tithe,

go to Sunday school, be here where the church doors are open, and if you do that, you're a good Christian, and so for those

folks, they knew something was missing, and so Jehovah's Witnesses come in and say, okay, we're going to manipulate them with

scripture.

We're going to give them serious discipleship, which they do in their format, and

we're going to hold them accountable that they're going to go out and be on mission, that they're going to do something for Jehovah, and

people buy into it, so it's pretty sad how easily it's deceived in that, so they

prey on and target people who they feel like are biblically illiterate, and then literally

people who are illiterate, people who can't read or write, and they are dependent

more on traditions or folklore or word of mouth gospel.

That's why you see, and this is not a slam on any of them, but this is why you see

tremendous attraction with Jehovah's Witnesses in South America and Central

America and some of the third world countries, like in our village where we have a church plant and school,

Jehovah's Witnesses try to come in there because they had identified that 80 of our

village couldn't read or write, but fortunately the gospel had taken root there, and it

didn't last, and so I praise God for that, but that's what they target,

because then they feel like it's, if they can get down at your dinner table and sit down in front of you and make their presentation, they

feel like they.

Can sell you on it.

So it sounds like you're saying that in your experience, oftentimes

it's almost like the Jehovah's Witnesses prey on a deficiency in

the church.

Correct.

And then supplement that with lies.

Correct.

Absolutely.

Which makes it a cult,.

That again, that is, every cult would do that.

Every cult would seek to exploit, that every work of the enemy, to kill, steal, destroy, and deceive,

that is exactly where they target.

For sure.

Agreed.

Maybe to an degree that transition may have not been that difficult, because if you

reflect and think about it just for a second, maybe the Southern Baptist as an

example, we're talking about a people, there will be a sample of

people within the Southern Baptist Convention that are biblically illiterate, and they

not only don't know why they believe what they believe, but they don't know what they believe, much less why they believe what they

believe.

And so you have a single pastor system come in and they do whatever he

tells them is the best means method and brings in doctrine, and it's almost like a

cultish type leader.

And so we don't like to look at it like that, but it kind of happens that way.

Exactly.

Just to try to lighten the mood just a little bit, when I was looking into this, and I think, you correct me if I'm

wrong, what I was seeing was that early on in Charles Russell's life,

he come in contact with a guy named William Miller.

And so I was going to pick on Dan and myself, bad things happen when a Presbyterian and a

Baptist get together.

Something I heard about the Jehovah's Witnesses, I'm curious if this is true.

It was taught to me that a religion more or less started because they didn't like the concept of hell.

Is there a legitimacy to that?

I think that was, and Jonathan, you correct me if I'm wrong, I think that was as leadership changed, that

was one of the doctrines that had changed.

And I think that William Miller guy, that was one of the things that he didn't like, and he

took out of the Bible.

William Miller was either a founder or at the beginning of this Adventist movement, and he was

a Baptist minister, and he was predicting Jesus to return.

And that was an attraction also to Charles Russell.

And Charles Russell, the reason I said that Baptists and Presbyterians, Miller come from a Baptist and

Russell come from a Presbyterian.

So they got together, and I think Russell studied from Miller for a while.

Just be careful.

Yeah, be careful.

Yeah, be careful.

So when I hear stuff like this, I'm a bullet down to the essence of it kind of fellow.

I don't have the brain power to be computing all this stuff.

It sounds to me like Scripture's authenticity and authority are

brought into question.

People take out the things they don't like, and if you remove, let's just say you

remove hail from your theology, right?

Then how is God just?

If God can't be just, then how is God holy, right?

Where is there an enemy if there is no place of eternal

punishment, right?

You see the building block?

This is a warning to everybody.

You have to guard your theology

with Scripture against flesh and blood's desire.

I mean, who likes the idea of hail, right?

I mean, let's just be honest about it.

I mean, who sit around and think you want somebody to go to hell?

I think that if we're being honest, half of the reason most Christians share the

gospel is because they legitimately don't want to see their friends and neighbors go to hell, almost to a fault,

where they're more concerned about their neighbor being punished more than they're concerned about

Christ being glorified in the gospel message, right?

And that's dangerous, and that's the reason I bring it up like that, not to put a wet blanket on anything,

but that's a danger that ministers, everyone on this computer screen, and everybody listening,

if you're not careful, you run into the danger of that.

If you begin to twist your Scripture or your gospel message to either fit

your societal view or to be easy on people or to be hard on people, right?

I mean, let's look at it both sides.

If you use Scripture as a weapon against people

to make them act the way that you want them to act, that's sinful.

If you twist Scripture to make it seem less severe

than it actually is, then you're being sinful.

It's not our job to dictate the way Scripture is interpreted by folks.

It's our job to interpret Scripture and say, this is what, like Billy Ray Collins says, everybody who knows knows,

right?

Come get the facts as best we understand them, and that's what we got.

And if we're not careful, every one of us can fall into this trap because every

one of us are wicked, vile creatures left.

To our own devices.

Yeah, well, we talked about Satan here a couple weeks ago and the god of this world, and

that's one of the things that says about the enemy that he's been a liar from the beginning.

That's right.

And so we put colors on lies.

Well, this is like a little white lie, or this is a yellow lie, or this is a big lie.

It's a black lie or whatever we want to put,.

Whatever color you attach to it.

I'm colorblind, so they're just lies.

Lie is a lie.

But that's the thing that happens in cults is it's a small lie that's

believable that grows.

And so, for example, it feels a whole lot better speaking about hell.

It feels a whole lot better to tell someone that, no, there's not hell, but you're just annihilated.

They believe that if you die apart from Jehovah, then

you're just annihilated.

You know what I mean?

So that's a big part of it.

You know what I'm saying?

Annihilation.

So anyways.

Scripture in context, right?

Peter says that scripture is not given to private interpretation or not.

We're not given an opportunity to have our truth.

That word, that phrase, man, that really grinds my grits.

Every time I hear somebody say, speak your truth, I think, what in the world kind of nonsense is that,

right?

Let me add this just to close out on my part.

So the Jehovah's, and I meant to say this earlier, just so everyone knows if someone watches this podcast, do be

careful.

They have their own set of scriptures.

They have their own Bible called the New World Translation.

Okay.

NWT.

We have all kinds of, they think ours are corrupt.

That's right.

And, and so they, so for example it

is very, very subtle changes.

Okay.

That was, that was part of our research and, but it was very, very subtle changes.

They do remove things about blood in there.

They do remove things about Jesus as being the son of God is sometimes they'll say he is a

son of God versus the son of God.

Different, different things like that.

It's very, very subtle, like really, really subtle.

One thing I looked into was their handling of John.

One, one in the beginning was the word and.

The word was with God or was a God.

A God.

That's right.

Exactly.

So that's real subtle.

Does that make sense?

Like if you don't have scripture memorized and that's going back to biblically illiterate people

that, that they might've heard these things said in general through church at some point in

time.

So it's there.

So they have enough, enough remnant of hearing some scriptures,

but then they pick up this and be like, Oh, this must be what it is.

And so it's extremely subtle.

It's extremely, um, but, but, but, but a small lie

is my whole point.

It's still a lie that completely inverts the whole doctrine.

That's right.

It corrupts the whole doctrine.

So, so going back to echo, that's what made me think about what John was saying, guys, if, if you

new world translation, if you see it laying around, just know what it is.

It is not the, it is not the infallible inspired word of God.

It is a man -made lie that is, that is rotten to the core that

uses the skin of God's word, if you will.

But it, but it is a wolf in sheep's clothing that that scripture in of itself, or not even, I didn't call it scripture, but

their set of what they would call scripture is an epitome of what a wolf in sheep's clothing is that it's,

it's designed to kill, steal, and destroy.

And, um, and it is leading thousands of people to hell.

So sounds like it'd be good kindling for the brush fire.

Well, just to pick up on something that you said earlier, you talk about how, where their foundations come from, where

we're Christian, where we're biblical.

And so one of the warnings is they will use same language.

Absolutely.

And I like, I like to think about what you say when somebody asks you, um, are you a Calvinist?

What do you.

Always tell them?

Why don't you tell me what a Calvinist is?

Yeah.

What do you mean by that?

So that's what you have to ask when they're using that same familiar language that we use and we.

What, what do you mean by that?

That's right.

Absolutely.

And they'll say, I'm a Christian.

They'll say, yeah, I love Jesus.

I believe Jesus, uh, was the son of God.

They'll, they'll tell you that, but then they won't tell you that Jesus is God.

And like, that's one of the, I mean, I know we may get into that in a minute, but like one of their major doctrinal things is they don't believe in the Trinity.

You know, they don't believe in God, the father, son, and Holy spirit as, as, as God.

Uh, they, they believe in Jehovah.

They believe Jesus was the son of God, but not God.

And they don't believe in the Holy spirit as the person of the Holy spirit.

The Holy spirit is just the manifestation of the power of God.

So, so it's more of an essence versus the person of the Holy spirit.

And so, so they totally like reject the, the ideology of,

of God, the father, God, the son and God, the Holy spirit.

They, they reject.

So, so, so that's just, but they'll use the same language.

They'll say, yeah, Jesus was the son of God.

Yeah.

Holy spirit.

Yeah.

We believe in the Holy spirit.

Yeah.

That's the, that's the power of God, the Holy spirit.

And I'm sure we'll, we'll use that term when we're preaching in the conference coming up

here at the end of, end of April, that, that we would say, yes, the Holy spirit, that's, that's the power of God in us.

You know what I mean?

We would say that and they would say yes and amen.

But then like you said, Robert, you got to press in and be like, no, okay, no, tell me what you mean by that versus what I mean.

And, and so it's really subtle.

Um, and, but it is, it is the, both of their evangelism

efforts and they're in their religions and it is still evangelism.

This just, uh, not evangelism, you know, um, it's an effort to win people

to their, it is remarkably, uh,

at least in the beginning, uh, very similar to the language of, of orthodox

Christianity.

And so, so I hope people listen to this and would be ever so careful to, to

recognize it for what it is, that it is, it is lies from hell.

So it's you to clone.

Love you, buddy.

Can't wait to see you.

Absolutely.

So Joe was a witness.

They don't believe that Jesus is God.

Just another nugget of truth.

They believe that Jesus was Michael, the archangel.

Now this other group that we're looking at, they do believe that Jesus is God.

Now, hold on.

But what do they mean by that?

Hold on.

Yeah.

Cause I, this is an area that I have some experience ministering to go with it.

So, uh, just here recently.

Uh, so just here recently I was witnessing to a Mormon at a guitar place

up in, uh, Charlotte was picking on guitar and, uh, and I was playing gospel songs,

talking to him about different things.

Of course, I'm just really more or less waiting on opportunity to slap him with Jesus.

You know what I mean?

But anyway, as a, as we get to that part, that's exactly

right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I wasn't going to lay hands on him unless he was sick.

Right.

Anyway, uh, as we were talking, he, he brought up that he was LDS.

Uh, do I need to paraphrase or to break that down or everybody you think?

Okay.

So the, uh, the Mormons also known as the church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints or

LDS for short are another occult group, some kind of a sex cult where they believe that,

uh, if you do right in their world, you get your own world that you get to be God over that, uh,

Jesus and Lucifer are brothers and, uh, their God's name is

something else.

It escapes me at the moment.

Uh, all this course was revealed to a man in secret by an angel named Moroni, uh, up in

Ohio.

I think originally I'm going from memory here based off some of the conversations I've had with several of them over the years.

Uh, and he would say, we believe Jesus is divine, but we can't

say he is the God.

So it's not dissimilar.

You understand from saying Jesus is a God.

So what they're doing is they're taking Christ's holiness, his otherness, his, his

divinity, and they're dragging it down and putting it into a place of question.

Anything that pulls Christ, I'm done tearing my stuff up.

Anything that pulls Christ off of his throne and seeks to exalt another is a cult

period.

I don't care if it's the Pope.

I don't care if it's whoever, uh, is whatever that Anderson boys church is, wherever it's at, or

he's the leader of it.

I don't care what it is.

I don't, I don't care if it's the lizard people of Papua, New Guinea, if, if it seeks to honor something above

Christ, it's a cult right now, his, his understanding of scripture

was so, so abused to him

that you, you're talking to him and he was like, see, he would say things like, Holy spirit tells me

this.

He never said the term, the Holy spirit.

That's important because when you say the, you're talking about a defining article.

Now we're talking about none other than God.

So if you say Holy spirit, you're taking away the definite article of that statement.

Would y 'all be in agreement with that?

I'm not great at English language, but that's the way I understood what little bit I understand of it.

So again, he's exalting something higher than God.

And in this place, it's going to be his intuition or his teachers or

somebody inside of their cult that tells him what the scripture means.

Instead of letting the Holy spirit, the definite article, Holy spirit take scripture and interpret

scripture being that he's the one who breathed this scripture.

They're using another man.

They've exalted a man now over the place of who is supposed to be the one that leads and guides them in

this truth.

Now they're being led by another flesh and blood individual.

And I'm going to tell you that it is so difficult.

It is once somebody is brainwashed to this level, it is so difficult to see them brought out of it.

I, I used to go to church with a man.

Actually I went to church with a couple of people who were by God's grace redeemed out of that Mormon cult.

And they would tell you things that make your stand on in some of the, some of the practices and some of the,

some of the abuses.

And I'm not necessarily talking about physical abuse or even sexual abuse so much as I'm talking about

abusing God's word.

We talked about this the other day, Rob, and you said, how can you abuse a gift?

If you don't have a gift, right?

You can abuse people by taking something and equating it with God's word and never have God's word, not

God's authentic word.

And you can abuse people from ever listening to real scripture ever.

You've calloused their ears to it or whatever the case, I don't know what the word is that you want to use, but you feed people a bunch of

lies.

And truth be told, not that a man can ever get through to another man.

It takes God getting through to that man.

However, once somebody has, has been fed this tissue of lies over and

over again, and are bought into it once, even once they're saved, if they're saved, there's things

they're continually relearning over and over again.

The things that I've seen, the things that I've seen some of these brothers and sisters go through

on into their adult years, on into their senior years, whenever you start talking about something and they cringe

and they, and they're so sensitive to you saying a certain word because in their past that's been abused,

that's been used to get something over on them or take something from them.

So when you say this word, they're, they're on a razor's edge, not knowing if you're fixing to fall into the,

if you're fixing to try to get them to fall into the same trap somebody else gets them to fall into whenever they're younger.

God has to be final and authoritative in your message.

You don't get to have your own interpretation of it.

It has to be the truth.

And I can't say it enough.

Anything that exalts itself above Christ is demonic, is occultic,

and seeks to destroy you, your family, your world, everything it can get its hands on.

I can't say that enough.

That's why I love A .W. Tozer.

What you think about when you think about Jesus says more about you than anything else.

If, if, if in your heart, Christ is exalted above everything.

If in your heart, Christ is most precious to you, you'd hate to shame him or, or to give him a bad reputation in the

community because you've taken his name and you've misrepresented him with your friends, your

neighbors, or your family, your church member, or whatever the case may be.

If he is that precious to you, then that is a sign that the Holy Spirit lives in you

and seeks to exalt Christ in everything, right?

He's, he comes to comfort us, but to testify of Christ the same way that Christ testifies of the

Father when he's here.

If I could follow that up with Psalm 115.

Go on, my brother.

I've been pretty quiet on this one, but Psalm 115 has been coming to mind a lot for me

lately, whether it's the Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses or just other things in,

in the Christian pseudo -culture, because a lot of times it's like a Christian skin, almost like a chameleon, that it

looks like it, smells like it, might even taste like it, but it's not it.

At the end, this is where it goes astray.

Not unto us, O Lord, not unto us, but unto thy name give glory, for thy

mercy and for thy truth's sake.

Wherefore should the heathens say, where now is their God?

Speak unto the believer.

But our God is in the heavens, and he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.

That is not the God of Mormonism.

That is not the God of Jehovah's Witnesses.

It says their idols are silver and gold, the work of men's hands.

They have mouths, but they speak not.

Eyes have they, but they see not.

They have ears, but they hear not.

Noses have they, but they smell not.

They have hands, but they handle not.

Feet have they, but they walk not.

Speak they, though their throat, neither speak they through their throat.

They have the appearance of being functional, but they don't work.

And then it says they that make them are like unto them, and so is everyone that trusteth in

them.

That there's a component where we become what we worship.

That when we worship idols, we become shaped by the idols we've created.

And that speaks very loudly about what we see with Mormonism, with this idea

of becoming your own little g -god.

That it's really just another manifestation of the pride of men.

That's right.

This is just another way that the carnal person has devised a way to rebel against

God.

To exalt themself in their majesty, to build another tower in Babel, and reach up to the heavens, and build a name for

themselves.

I just recorded this week's episode on Job, and this is where we were, is the tower of Babel.

That let us build a name for ourselves.

Let us build our own way to the heavens.

Let us keep ourselves from being scattered.

And God says, scatter them.

And then in the next chapter, he goes to Abram and says, I will make your name great.

The very thing that they wanted at Babel, God promises to Abram.

Not for his sake, but for the glory of God.

Amen.

That for Abram's name to be great, for Abram to be blessed, was in accordance with

what glorifies God.

And that is what separates Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons from the true faith.

This is why Paul says, if I or even an angel from heaven preached to you

any other gospel, let them be accursed.

Because there is one way, there is one truth, and it is centered on God.

Not what we do, not what we get, not what we want God to be, but to

worship God for who he is, as he has told us that he is.

Amen.

Amen.

So let me say this, Jehovah's Witnesses have slowed in America

with their proselyting as far as actually success in that, and especially

among Christians.

I didn't say that a while ago.

That was in the early to mid -90s when they were targeting Southern Baptists in those groups.

I praise God that among, generally speaking, that has slowed.

And that's why they are moving to third world countries.

On the other hand though, Mormonism is more sophisticated than Jehovah's Witnesses.

And so Mormonism is an American homegrown

religion.

And in its surface, they're not going to tell you the crazy

stuff in the beginning.

They're not going to tell you that you're going to eventually become your own God.

They're not going to tell you about special underwear that you wear.

They're not going to tell you about all the cultish things.

They're going to tell you very Christianese language.

They're really going to talk in a very layman term that is

very inviting.

So they are going to tell you they believe in God, the Father, God, the Son, and God, the Holy Spirit.

They're going to tell you they believe just like you do if you're a Christian.

And those that they're trying to reach that are not Christians, but think they're Christians.

I mean, they're at least got some form of godliness, but they really don't have the power thereof.

They know the languages of Zion.

So just know that if you're listening out there too, I just wanted to add that the

Mormons are much more sophisticated in their approach.

They also have a much more elite format when it comes to education.

So like Brigham Young University, they got a great football team, great basketball team,

all this kind of stuff.

Well, Brigham Young University is named after the president of

the Mormon religion, which was right after Joseph Smith was like Brigham Young.

Salt Lake City was established, the whole city by Mormons.

The entire city is rooted on Mormonism.

So a very wealthy group, far more wealthy in America than people

would ever realize.

And we had a Mormon that was put up for president.

Anybody remember his name?

Mitt Romney.

That's right.

So high morals.

Very, very high moral people going to be on the same page with moral issues

as many Christians will.

So again, they're not going to promote the weird stuff.

They're not going to promote the cult stuff.

So that's why it's important for us to expose them.

Because they're going to be even greater than Jehovah's Witnesses to a degree.

Mormons are some of the sweetest people you'll ever be around.

I mean, just as far as just hanging out, being nice, clean living, clean cut,

middle to high end class people going to have some money.

They're going to look like it's all together.

So there's a little guys though with ties with the name Rabbi Sickles, by the way,

if anybody's wondering.

That's right.

Just know that I wanted to throw that out there to make sure that everybody understands.

Jehovah's Witnesses are, like I said, they tend to be to dupe.

And I don't believe in a caste system, but when I say this, I'm cautious.

That's the reason I use the word illiterate.

They tend to go after lower income people or illiterate people.

Now, the Mormons, they're upper escalon.

They're a lot more money and a lot more power

than people.

Realize.

Now, I didn't know until yesterday that it actually says in the Book of Mormon that to have dark skin is a

curse from God.

That's right.

That it is literally a sin in.

Mormonism to be black.

And the Jehovah's Witnesses had that in their book until the civil rights movement.

They said the darker your complexion, the darker your soul.

But that didn't age well, so they removed it.

Because if you've got a sliding scale and your book is just more or a photocopy of

whatever's going on in society, whatever's morally acceptable, then your doctrine can change with

every presidential administration.

Correct.

Which by definition, if you're listening, makes it not holy.

If your document is not holy, our Bible is holy.

It's different.

It's set apart.

It's other than, there's nothing else like the Bible in all of creation,

in all of the written works that exist in libraries across the land.

The Bible is holy with a W and holy with an H, different.

Amen.

Going back to what you said, Tyler, I don't want to let anybody off the hook.

And you guys may be familiar with this, but some of our

ancestors believed similarly, it wasn't ever in our confessions of

faith or anything, any of our doctrines, official doctrinal statements, but they believed similarly to that.

And they called it effects of the curse of Ham.

Yeah.

And I think I had recent relatives that believed in that.

They had darker skin because of the curse of Ham, which is unbiblical and not true.

But when it comes to the Mormons, I believe that curse came from

the kicking out of Satan when Jesus and Satan

were offering their ideas to God, which is the better plan and Satan lost.

So when he was cast out, that's where the people of color come from was

that part of that curse, I think, which was crazy too.

So you're insinuating that a bunch of upper class and upper crust white guys

made a religion that somehow another condemned all the black guys.

That's a shocker, isn't it?

Well, imagine that.

Imagine how you can twist scripture to fit your agenda.

It's amazing and sad and terrible.

Absolutely terrible.

What'd you say about Galatians chapter one, Tyler?

If any preached to you gospel other than what I have preached to you, even if he's an angel from

heaven, I might be changing some word order a little bit.

No, that's good enough.

Yeah.

Let him be accursed.

Yeah.

Amen.

The other thing that makes.

Mormonism very attractive today too is such a high level of interest in

mysticism in America.

So when you read the history of Mormonism,

Joseph Smith really was almost like a wizard.

I mean, when you come down to it, by the way, he was

Presbyterian dabbling with a little Methodism.

So there's another jab at Dan.

And Tyler says he's Presbyterian in a non -denominational church.

So there you go.

Again, here's another guy with Christian roots.

And then supposedly he goes out and has this revelation.

Here's the thing that I would say.

Joseph Smith, in the founding of Mormonism, it is all

based upon his religious experiences and visions.

So not to drag us back to an old beat a dead horse in

the head of cessationism and continuationism and all that kind of stuff.

But there is, I think, legitimate times that the Lord has met with people,

but not for extra biblical revelation, not for extra biblical visions and dreams.

I think he has given people, in my opinion, he's given me a vision for my church.

I mean, he birthed that in me and I have a vision.

But my vision that I have and a dream that he's given me and four thoughts toward the future,

those things are still relegated to the authority of scripture.

And so that still comes back to that.

So Joseph Smith, on the other hand, he supposedly meets with God the Father and God the Son.

And in a unified voice, they tell him not to join any of these groups, none of these denominations, none of this stuff.

And so that's where it started with him.

But then it gets really interesting with the plates and not to beat a dead horse,

but he's the only one with the translating thing.

So he's the only one that when he reads these scrolls, he's the only one that can translate it.

If you've got somebody that's saying that I'm the only one that can read this, then ding, ding,

ding, cult.

One thing that I love about the Bible, God has made it plain for all.

Romans 1 tells us not only through creation, but now through his written word, he has made it plain who he

is.

These cults are made up of situations where it was

not plain for everyone, but only for someone.

And then that someone is the only vine of revelation.

You can start throwing Islam into this and different things where it's Muhammad and whatever prophet, whatever that

one they have the revelation and it came through this one person that was not for

being tested by all, but this one person carries the revelation, then

that's dangerous.

But anyway, I'll fall into that category.

Yeah, do I?

Wouldn't a Catholic church and a Pope fall in that category?

Absolutely.

I think so too.

You've got a continuation of revelation of the authority of the Pope.

And so absolutely.

And so that's what's dangerous.

But anyways, there's an attraction with modern television and

Harry Potter's and different things that you want to look at, whatever out there that you want to say that has

mysticism and wizards and that kind of stuff.

I mean, I even know that I know like Lord of the Rings was meant to be

a Christian imagery.

But at the same time, it could easily be misconstrued, you know, of looking at those things.

And so we just so people are attracted to magic, for lack of better terms.

They're attracted to this mysticism.

And the Mormon church really plays to that attraction, you know, that once you

get into the roots of it, you know, you're going to get magic.

You're going to be a creator.

You're going to be able to cast spells and do these things.

You know what I mean?

Not necessarily.

They don't use that language.

But you know what I'm saying?

I mean, it's like there's this deep attraction to that.

But even in its roots, it's you've got a wizard by the name of Joseph Smith, and he had this

magic, prophetic ability to read hieroglyphics that told of

people long, long ago.

You know, I mean, it's like it's like the writings of a movie star,.

You know, a long, long time ago in a galaxy far away.

So just to wrap up and give a really brief additional part of their history.

One of the big phrases that they like to use as Mormons is as man is God once was you have to think

about this slowly as man is God once was and as God is man

can be or something like that.

Very, I think it's very close.

Disgusting is that's a popular phrase from them.

And then just a part of their history.

You guys have touched on it there, Joseph Smith.

And I think you said is the name of the angel was Moroni.

He met with him on the mountain.

New York, Ohio.

But yeah, he gave him golden tablets.

Yeah, correct.

And then, like Jonathan said, you know, he had the ability to read these golden tablets, but then he lost them.

And then when it come time to translate and write down the Book of Mormon, he had to do it by memory.

So, yeah, crazy stuff.

As we wrap this up, I didn't get to use this resource, but I would encourage people,

you know, everything's on the Internet now, good and bad.

But I think all of you would would be OK with me saying that Blue Letter Bible is

is a good resource.

They have quick reference guides for Jehovah's Witness and Mormons.

Just looking at the list here, what they what they say about the Trinity and then what God says, the

Bible about the Trinity, about the Holy Spirit, Jesus and Michael, the archangel, the resurrection,

the cross.

So on and on and on, what Jehovah's Witness or Mormons would say and then what the Bible says.

Looks like a really, really good resource.

And with that being said, I appreciate everybody's input.

And Jonathan, if you'd share the gospel with us tonight and Tyler,.

Would you mind closing us in prayer?

Well, real quick, too, as you're giving resources as well, I had two books that I wanted to recommend to

be careful, like Robert said, just going on and Googling that that is one of the new traps, too, that they've got real

savvy with the Internet.

So you can go Google and they have these very attractive, all cults do, by the way, they have very attractive websites,

those kind of things that people can get sucked into.

But sometimes you just it's good to pick up a good book as well, not just what you can Google.

So Ron Rhodes, this is a little bit more expensive book.

It's about twenty five dollars.

But Ron Rhodes wrote a book called The Challenge of of Cults and New Religions.

And so so he's speaking about in the world, what is what is the what makes it difficult?

And so he really does a good job pointing out some of the pitfalls of it.

And then there's a real simple, inexpensive book, usually about ten, eleven bucks.

Fritz Ridenour, it's called.

So what's the difference?

And he really just spends time on multiple different cults, pointing out the difference between

Christianity and that cult, just so that you can see it on paper, you know, and it's a very

inexpensive book, pretty simple.

So what's the difference?

And then if you want to, you know, get on out there, there's tons of cults and religious books.

You can go to your local Christian school and tons of stuff in the library as well that if you

want to really dig into it.

So the gospel, Robert knows this is one of one of my favorite things to do.

And I told him the other week, I always hold my breath.

I hope I'm like a little kid in the can.

Please, please call me, please.

You know, we all love this part of our podcast and our time together to share

the gospel.

And tonight we're talking about cults in the world, false

religions.

And and the reason there's false religions, it goes it goes actually all the way back to the beginning.

God had given a mandate to Adam and Eve that you can do.

You can eat of anything that you want.

This world is created for you.

You're created for eternity.

And God's saying, I created this for you to enjoy me and enjoy my creation for all of eternity.

And and you can eat of anything, but just don't eat of this.

And if you eat of this tree of the knowledge of good and evil, if you

eat of this tree, you're going to truly die.

And and so that was God's first law.

That was his first mandate in the earth to mankind, to Adam and Eve.

Along comes a serpent, which is Satan in the form of Satan.

And like I mentioned earlier, the Bible tells us he was a liar from the beginning.

What was his lie?

His lie was, well, if you eat of this, surely you won't die.

Surely you won't die.

You you'll actually become like God.

So Tyler was mentioning that earlier, too, is the appeal to become our own God, to become like God.

And in the in the deeper levels of Mormonism, that's what they're selling you is that you're going to become like God.

So actually, this cult, this religion is no new religion.

This is this is these lies go all the way back to the beginning, to Genesis

chapter three.

And in Genesis chapter three in Christianity, that's what we call the fall.

That is where sin entered into the world.

That's where man disobeyed God.

And from that point in time, man inherited a DNA

that causes us to now love ourselves, love the world.

Romans chapter three gives the verdict of God over mankind.

It says all like sheep have gone astray.

All all have lying lips, all are swift to shed blood.

The ESV translated this way that that all have become worthless before God,

that that no one is pursuing him, no one's desiring him.

And and the accumulation of that is Romans 323 that says, and then all have sinned

and fallen short of the glory of God.

So we go all the way back to the beginning with Adam and Eve and they sin against God.

And then through that DNA, through that one man's sin, then all men have become sinful.

And there's a reality that we have in Scripture that tells us that in order to to to to go to heaven, in order to have eternal

life, in order to be in the presence of God, God's law tells us that we have to be

perfect as he is perfect, that God has no communion or fellowship with sin.

And so now now we have a real problem because we just learned that all have sinned, all have

gone astray, all fall short of the glory of God.

But then God says the only way to get to heaven, the only way to eternal life, the only way to me

is to be perfect as I am perfect.

And so now we have a huge chasm between mankind and God and the

condemnation of God is over the face of the earth.

So then if that's the end of the story, what hope is there?

I mean, we are lost and undone.

And I hope tonight you would start there if you don't believe on Jesus, that you would start there.

You need to understand your lostness and you sin against God and you are separated from a

holy God.

And there's a tremendous chasm that no amount of work will help you swim across that chasm.

And for all of eternity, if you do not have a hope that I'm about to tell you about just a second,

for all of eternity, you'll be under the wrath of God.

But in God, in his rich mercy and love, Ephesians chapter one tells us in his in

his tremendous, rich love that God so, so loved the world,

so loved these people without distinction that he gave his only son.

Now, what's the significance of that?

I told you about the law a second ago that says, first of all, you have to be holy as he is holy to inherit eternal life.

And then the Bible says that without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sin.

So because that's where we're asking the question now, how can we bridge the chasm?

How can we somehow make it to God?

And we're all trying to figure out a way to work our way to overcome.

And God says, there is no works, but I will do what you can't do.

That I will send my son and he will do the impossible.

Isaiah chapter 53 tells us then he takes our sin, takes our guilt, takes our shame.

And the Bible says that it pleased God to crush him under the weight of that, that all of

our guilt, all of our shame was put upon Christ, was put upon him.

In Colossians chapter two and chapter three, I love the presentation of Paul's explanation of the in

there in the, in through that, in the heart of those two chapters, it says right there, then, then God took our sin

and nailed it to the cross and blotted it out of the way with its legal demand.

In other words, you and I are under absolute condemnation because we're lawbreakers, we're God haters,

but then God takes that sin and nails it to the cross and blots it out of the way that he

who knew no sin became our sin.

And who is he?

That is Jesus Christ.

He had never sinned.

He was absolutely perfect, absolutely fulfilled every expectation of perfection and righteousness

and being right with God.

And the Bible says that he who knew no sin became our sin.

So our sin was put on him and nailed to the cross and blotted out of the way.

And he became this fancy word called the perpetuation for our sin.

In other words, that when he went to the cross, the shedding of his blood satisfied the wrath of God, it

satisfied and removed this condemnation that was upon us.

And all that believe in that finished work of Jesus, the Bible says that you are made righteous.

In other words, he took our sin and then we, he turned around and gave us

his righteousness.

So then in other words, you become right with God there, that chasm that was impossible to cross that

imperfection.

Jesus says, I am the way, the truth, and the life.

I am the way to come across this chasm.

Now it is a narrow way.

It's not all roads lead across that chasm, but it is a narrow way that the son of God, Jesus

Christ came as a man, took on our form of flesh and in the flesh, took our

sin and nailed it to the cross, blotted out of the way.

And then he gave us our, his perfection.

And as a result, the condemned people, you know what our triumphant call is?

There's multiple passages, but one of my favorites, Romans chapter eight, verse one, on the other hand now says, therefore,

this group that was condemned because of their sin, therefore, there is no condemnation for them that

are in Christ.

That no condemnation means that when God looks at us, he no longer sees a person that's a Romans 3 .23 person

that has fallen short of the glory of God.

He sees a person that is completely reconciled to him in Christ, forgiven and redeemed.

And so what I'll tell you, beloved, is that there is no religion in the world that offers you that.

They're going to offer you some kind of mixed up foolish doctrinal thing that says

somehow by your works, you'll be able to cross this chasm.

If you have good morals and you, and you behave yourself and you give lots of money and you do this, somehow you

will buy your way across this.

The Catholic church started that mess when there's like, you can somehow by penance, you know, pay your way,

pay, pay your loved one's way into heaven or pay your way into heaven.

That is a lie from a devil's hell who is a liar from the beginning, who does everything he can do to continue to

deceive people from believing on the son of God clinging to the tree of life.

And so what I would encourage you today is to believe on Jesus because he is the way he is the truth and he is

in life and he is the escape condemnation and no one crossed that chasm.

No one comes to the father except by him.

And so that is the truth of the gospel.

And we hope that you would believe on Jesus and tonight receive eternal life.

God bless you.

Father God, I'm grateful

that we've been reminded of just how good the good news is.

Amen.

That we see the substitutes that we've developed over the years

for what they are.

And that we, you've called us to wrestle with

these other ideas because they're not the true thing.

They don't make the good news good.

They make the bad news good.

Lord, I pray for the words that have been said that they would bear fruit

to make the good news good.

In Christ's.

Precious, precious name we pray.

Amen.

Amen.

Thank you brothers and thank you all for watching.

We appreciate you and we love you and we would encourage you to go to

thelaborsconference .com check out the event.

We would love to see you there.

Go and register online.

Hope to see you.

Thank you for joining the laborers podcast.

Remember Jesus is King.

Live in the victory of Christ.

Speak with the authority of Christ and go share the gospel of Christ.

Be sure to tune in next time for the laborers podcast.