Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons- Laborers' Podcast

Welcome back to the laborers podcast. Thank you for joining us tonight. The topic tonight

Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons Can we consider them brothers? We'll tackle that question next on the laborers podcast

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So Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons It's not something that we

Some people see them more often than others and so there there's not this pressing need all the time to dive into the the deep theological

Understanding of what they believe and what we believe but Maybe this could be a little little treatise on If you encounter one, you know

Not many of us live near a temple or a Kingdom Hall But if they come to our door, so let's answer some of those simple questions tonight

The big one is they they carry a label with them Normally called a cult and anybody

Define what a cult is and see if we can Decide if they fall under that label.

I Don't know what Webster calls a cult I think that there's a

A very layman's term Way to to define one and that's this simply this is

If Christ is not in charge of it Then it is something else it falls under the umbrella of a cult

Everything and I know that sounds extremely Exclusive and that's because I meant for it to sound extremely exclusive There's the church and then there's everything else and everything else in my opinion falls under the umbrella of cult the and and the short reason for that is because the church is the only faith that says that man is not in charge and that man is not the center focal point of The religion and that the only way our religion

Exists is because the founder of it is still alive So, that's well to supply the

Webster's Dictionary Which actually isn't too far off for what big

John just gave us for real for real the definition that Webster's Dictionary gives is devotion to a

Belief that is unorthodox or false praise God Yeah Yeah, and I would

I would just add to those a couple other things that in research of that it is a typically a cult is a group of people that have a

Fixation On a earthly person like so Mormons and Witnesses for like so like for example

Mormons, you know, President Smith would be like He is the revelator.

He is the revelation in addition to Christ, you know what I mean? And and and so Mormonism is sustained on extra biblical revelation

That is man -made. So therefore That falls more under cult so you have a generality of There's there's the three

Four or four major religions in the world Christianity Hinduism Islam Judaism and then you've got second tier religions that are under that that may be animistic or people groups

But what falls in the cracks of what we considered orthodox religion what falls on the cracks anything that falls in the crack would be cult

But I totally agree from a Christian perspective anything that's not Christian would be cult you know, so that's that's where we

Totally agree, but if you go into the strictest definitions Worldwide that it would be anything that's falling in those cracks of unorthodoxy

By large popular people groups then then that would be be cults so you got satanic cults or the occult that that's sort of those extremes and then and Then you do have some other religions like Mormonism and Jehovah's Witnesses, you know that You know, we would have to say that they fall under that definition of a cult for sure

Well, that kind of leads us into our first two questions who are the Jehovah's Witness and Mormons and brief history of them and Let me preface that by saying just mentioning a little something that I feel like I recognized in both of these and Hopefully we can when we end up this thing we can

Circle back to this question or this observation because I think it will help. I think it will help a lot of people that are listening so In looking at the origins of Jehovah's Witness and Mormons.

It seemed like you were talking about that that leader That that they follow that they idolize

It seemed like there's a there was a disillusionment. What they had in common was a disillusionment with mainstream

Christianity that they say they saw all these differences between the denominations between the different churches religions and and they were just become disillusioned disheartened and so they they backed off lost their faith and and and somehow

Got connected with some bad teaching which led to the beginning origins of this and so we fall into that and I think that's a

Many many many people fall into that disillusionment, you know Church of God and Baptist and Presbyterian non -denominational, you know, they all have different beliefs which one's right?

and so it's easy for someone to fall into that disillusionment and Just become discouraged and I think that's one of the key things that that we do as a group is that we should show

Hey, there's foundations there's things that would that are non -negotiable that we believe in that we lock arms together with and And those chains can't be broken.

But you know, there's secondary issues and things that we Tussle together with to try to understand

God's Word better. And so we were showing people that That there there's a way out of that disillusionment,

I think when we get together and tackle some of those things so Who wants to start first with we start with the

Jehovah's Witnesses? They're kind of their origin a little bit of history All right,

Tyler. I know this is your I know this is your wheelhouse. I ain't about to step on this moment Actually, this is not my wheelhouse.

I'm what? What we don't really have Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons down in my neck of the woods

Independent fundamental Baptist, right? Yeah, we got the IFB and Go for it, bro

I don't mind taking a stab at Jehovah's Witnesses a part of my senior thesis and was it was a cults class and I ended up doing

Doing one of my final study papers in my in my undergraduate was was on was on cults and Jehovah's Witnesses is who

I chose and so so I've attended services and And Jehovah's Witness churches and our buildings rather because I wouldn't call my church buildings

They call it a church, but or a building a gathering So they've got kind of a unique history, it's pretty splintered honestly, it's hard to track all the splinters that's been through history, but you know

They go back to and I was I was digging up some of my old paperwork in through some of this stuff

But you know, they they go back to the 1870s there. There was a movement in the late 1800s

That was called a Bible student movement. And so so there is Orthodoxy in in some roots based upon The same

Bible we use and that's one thing that we need to realize is what we would classify It's sort of an oxymoron, but what we would classify as a

Christian cult It's a group of people that still Use the name of Jesus say that they believe at least in some form of Jesus and both groups that we're talking about tonight

Still use Jesus but then it's a lot like the Gnostics that John was writing against even in the

New Testament that immediately there were people that were coming out with Different doctrines on who

Jesus was and and what Jesus stood for And that's where you know, we're warned repeatedly even the earliest of Saints Jesus warned like I'm preaching through Luke 21 right now in the

Olivet Discourse and and even right prior to that Jesus immediately warns His disciples beware because there's going to be false teachers

Come in immediately. There's going to be wolves in sheep's clothing and and if they say I'm over here

Don't chase after them if they say that the Son of Man's come here. Don't chase after them, you know and here's the things to look for and so so that so that's why it was deceptive a lot of times in the beginning though was because it did have the

Bible like I mean that was the term that they used was Bible student movement and So it was they called it a restorationist.

And so Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses too from a historical side Were exactly what you said

A lot of them were disgruntled with with early church with the early church But then that 1800 mark and early 1900 they were disgruntled and and disillusioned some with church with religion it didn't feel like it was what it's supposed to be there for the

Jehovah's Witnesses and and then in not to step on it's somebody else's answer, but the

Mormons kind of parallel that because part of the foundational piece for the Mormons is not just a

Restoration of the church. It's actually a repudiation like it's like Like they reject

Orthodox Christianity because now they believe that they have the new revelation that after the

Apostles died They believe the church went full -on apostasy and then Joseph Smith came and when he had his revelation

Then that that did away with Orthodox Christianity and now they have the true

Christianity is what they would say. And so so both of these though have I Wouldn't mind using the term

Christian roots. They were people that were supposedly followers of Christ and Then deceived and so that's that's a really serious matter that we should all be careful of and so so that was you know for Jehovah's Witnesses late 1800s early 1900s and then or you know around 1916 that there was there was some splits

You know the guy that was part of the original Restorationist was Charles Russell was the guy that you can look him up He was part of that original group.

And then after he died Joseph Rutherford or they called him the judge, you know, he he kind of began to lead the way

And and he he took control of the Watchtower, which was which is their publication that's their doctrinal publication for Jehovah's Witnesses and so So most of the time

Jehovah's Witnesses in their training there. They are taught to quote scripture but their scripture is really defined by what the

Watchtower says and so So that has been the major publication the major doctrinal driver you know from the beginning basically from the very early 1900s when that came out and so So then after that, you know the judge really began to institute doctrinal changes so there was some level of orthodoxy in The original

Jehovah's Witnesses, but then after After Russell died then when when

Rutherford took over That's where you see a lot of change in the organization.

There's actually multiple splits in the organization at that time but that really represents more of Where where Jehovah's Witnesses are today?

It originates from that and so, you know, so that would still be in around 1931 is when the name

Jehovah's Witnesses was actually officially adopted. So so that Jehovah's Witnesses Put a stamp on it from from going back from the

Bible Student Association, you know, or those kind of this morphism 1931 is when the name was adopted and That that officially

Separated them from those original what we would call Jehovah's Witnesses today or those original founders that that completely cut ties

From from that original group and now this is where you have What we would consider officially a cult some of those early

Early people that weren't necessarily weren't worn by the term Jehovah's Witness We would have called them

Weird Christians probably you know what I mean? Like we would have been like something's something's wrong here, but at least they're they're they're fighting with the

Bible, but By 1931 Watchtower had become the the

Orthodox Authority and and then that secret group who's putting out those publications became what

Well when I use the term a while ago fixation those that were followers of Jehovah's Witness became

Affixiated with whatever the Watchtower said So then the Watchtower Writings took more authority than scripture so then that's where they get, you know, no blood transfusions, for example, or No celebrating any holidays or birthdays at all those kind of those kind of situations all that's

Come from Watchtower teaching and and it is it is absolutely appalling how far out of context

That that the Watchtower will do they'll take one little snippet from something and make it doctrine

And then all of a sudden that becomes the rule of the church so so now that's also fits in the second part of the definition of a cult not only a

Fixation with a person or an object or a teaching of like the Watchtower. It's really what the fixation is

But then it's it's it's additional revelation outside of scripture so you have a continuation of revelation a continuation that's that's outside of the orthodoxy of ancient writings biblical writings, you know, and so So then you know

Then they begin to make up their own rules for salvation, you know and and like one example

The Jehovah's Witnesses Like multiple times have predicted the second coming of Christ multiple times obviously it didn't happen and And then when it didn't happen, there was always an excuse and then just as for the sake of time

You can go back and look there's there's I can't remember the exact date But there was a date that was set then supposedly the second coming of Christ did come

But it only came to this one small group and he met with him and told them what to do and then left and went back to heaven and left them in charge and so now that group

Behind the scenes takes over Watchtower, you know and now they're their cultist practices come out and they tell this story and then the gullibility of people just to believe these things is just unbelievable, but So in that where is where they got though, there's only a hundred forty four thousand that's going to be saved

Because back then there wasn't more than a hundred forty four thousand Jehovah's Witnesses But then

Jehovah's Witnesses Surpassed the number of a hundred forty four thousand and they're like, we'll know that then they change their doctrine again we'll know the hundred forty four thousand will rule with Christ in heaven and the rest of us will then rule on earth and But but but we're

Jehovah's Witnesses. We're not going to go to hell, but there was this season. There was actually a competition So then whoever has the greatest works

Will be judged of who the actual hundred forty four thousand is and that's still in place to a degree

Because that's how they become rulers and rain rainers is based on their merit and how much works they have and how many conversions they have and So that's why you have so many door knockers and they have become

Extremely good salesman a matter of fact their number one target is Southern Baptist because they believe that Southern Baptist are the most biblically illiterate and They're the easiest to convince because they can come in and show them

X number of scriptures So they target people that they feel like illiterate Not only biblically but also illiterate period so they pray on on the week

They pray on people who can't read and and go by more word -of -mouth And they're very very good so historically

There's a bunch more that could be said but I'll close with this Literally when you go to one of their church services

They are the nicest Most welcoming people that you've ever met in your life

They will literally chase you down in the parking lot to shake your hand and say we're so glad you're here today So so they're very serious about it

And and I think there is something inside of them that they're trying to build an accolade build a work, you know

But then I also do think there is something that's very genuine the second thing though when you go there

They Literally have different kinds of services but the couple that I attended was broken up in different segments and they literally have a

Kitchen table a lot of them set up on their stage to where they do mock conversations of how to refute a

Christians argument with scripture that's taken out of context They actually practice taking things out of context and how to manipulate situations

And so it's pretty neat to see that and and and And to experience that and then then when they found out why

I was there I wasn't near quite as welcome as as Because I told them eventually they said well, why are you here?

And I was and I was I got to go into one of the back rooms Which is where they have their their their form of catechism or discipleship and they start asking you questions and when

I told them Then I was asked to go ahead and step out of that room and just remain in the general populace in the general service and They said you're welcome to stay and watch the dialogues in that manner, but I wasn't allowed, you know behind the scenes

And so again, that's a practice of cultish things because they they don't want someone who's not

Pursuing something to be devout in their religion. They don't want to expose that so So anyways, that's real quick.

There's so many details I left out. I mean you could talk a long time, but like I said, it's back in the late 1800s and early 1900s is where it really got its roots and So what changes throughout history, you know as you go, so Just to find real quick what you mean by Illiterate you're talking about they they view

Southern Baptist as most illiterate. What do you mean by that? They view Southern Baptist as biblically illiterate

So in other words Southern Baptists have a That they got a lot of grandpa and grandma religion is is is what they would say so Southern Baptists can quote

John 316 And they can quote Romans 323. They can quote most of the Romans Road.

And so they've got enough And I'm talking generally speaking, okay, this is not all so right just know that But it was interesting in my research

As I began to interview Jehovah's Witnesses how many of them were former Southern Baptists? that had been duped into coming over and And I couldn't change their mind, you know

Because they were they were so deceived as I even as even after I interviewed them for research purposes of course,

I tried to share the gospel with them, you know, and and it was amazing, but As I began to talk to those people, that's what

I found out they had They had the religion of their parents and their grandparents and so they had the tradition of Southern Baptist religion

But as far as really being knowledgeable and the whole Council of Scripture They were not and so so so there was there was enough tradition to have a conviction that they should be devoted to religion devoted to Christ But the church, but they had a

Sunday morning religion for lack of better terms And so Jehovah's Witnesses know that so then they come in and offer offer them

Something serious something heavy something that like like you are going to earn your salvation and this is how you know

And those kind of things and so then people are like, yeah I've always known that there was something in me that that I should be doing more

And so this must be it, you know and But then when I found out when I went back and interviewed some of those other

Southern Baptist churches that they came from what? I found out was that Those Southern Baptist churches had had no

No form of ongoing discipleship other than Sunday morning in Sunday school There was there was no ongoing

Situations to to walk with people in discipleship. That was first and then second of all they had no conduit for authentic mission so there they they viewed missions as giving money, but they never challenged or provided a pathway

For their for their church members to actually be on mission and do something, you know with the gospel

So it was more come to Sunday morning church. Give your tithe go to Sunday school Be here where the church doors are open

And if you do that, you're a good Christian and so for those for those folks They knew something was missing and so Jehovah's Witnesses come in and say, okay, we're going to manipulate them with Scripture We're going to give them

Serious discipleship which they do and they're in their format and we're going to hold them accountable that they're going to go out and be on mission, but they're going to do something for Jehovah and And and people buy into it.

So it's it's pretty sad. You know how easily it's deceived in that so so that there's so they pray on and target people who they feel like are biblically illiterate and Then literally people who are illiterate people who can't read or write

And they they are dependent more on traditions or folklore or word -of -mouth

Gospel, that's why you see and this is not a this is not a slant on any of them.

But this is why you see tremendous attraction with Jehovah's Witnesses in like South America and Central America and some of the third world countries

Like in our village where where we have a church plant and school Jehovah's Witnesses tried to come in there

Because they had identified the 80 % of our village couldn't read or write but fortunately the gospel had taken root there and It didn't last and so I praise

God for that. But you know, that's That's that's what they target because then they they feel like it's

If they can get down at your dinner table and sit down in front of you and make their presentation They feel like they can they can sell you on it.

So so It sounds like you're saying that in your experience oftentimes, it's

It's almost like the Jehovah's Witnesses prey on a deficiency in the church

Correct, and then supplement that with lies correct Which makes it a cult that again that that is

Every cult would do that Every cult would seek to exploit that every work of the enemy to kill steal or destroy and deceive

That that is that is exactly where they target for sure agreed and maybe to a degree that transition may have not been that difficult because if you

Reflect and think about it just just for a second Maybe the

Southern Baptist as an example, we're talking about a people there will be a sample of people within the

Southern Baptist Convention that are biblically illiterate and They Not only don't know why they believe what they believe but they don't know what they believe much less why they believe what they believe and So you have a single pastor system come in and they do whatever he tells them is is the best means method and and and brings in doctrine and It's almost like a cultish type leader.

And so we don't like to look at it like that, but It kind of happens that way

Exactly just to try to lighten the mood just a little bit When I was looking into this and and I think you correct me if I'm wrong

What I was seeing was that Early on in Charles Russell's life. He come in contact with a guy named

William Miller And so I was gonna pick on Dan and myself It bad things happen when a when a

Presbyterian and a Baptist get together I heard about the

Jehovah's Witnesses. I curious if this is true It was taught to me that a religion more or less started because they didn't like the concept of hell

Is there Legitimacy to that. I think that was

And Jonathan you correct me if I'm wrong, I think that was as leadership changed That was one of the doctrines that had changed and I think that that William Miller guy

That was one of the things that he was he didn't like and he he took out of the Bible William Miller was either a founder or at the beginning of this this

Adventist movement and he was he was a Baptist minister and he was predicting Jesus to return and that was

Correct there was an attraction also to Charles Russell and Charles Russell reason I said that Baptists and Presbyterian Miller come from a

Baptist and Russell come from a Presbyterian. Mm -hmm. So they got together and I think

Russell studied from Miller for a while Just be careful. Yeah, be careful.

Yeah, be careful So so when I hear stuff like this, I'm a bullet down to the to the essence of it kind of fella

I don't have the brainpower to be computing all this stuff. It sounds to me like Scriptures authenticity and authority are brought into question people take out the things they don't like and If you remove let's just say you remove hail from your theology right

Then how is God just? If God can't be just and how is

God holy? Right We're where is is there an enemy if there is no

Place of eternal punishment, right? You see the you see the building ball. This is a warning to everybody you have to You have to guard your theology with Scripture against Flesh and bloods desire.

I mean who likes the idea of hail? Mm -hmm, right. I mean, let's just be honest about it I mean who who sit around and think you'd want somebody to go to hell.

I think that that's if we're being honest Yeah Half of the reason most

Christians share the gospel is because they legitimately don't want to see their friends and neighbors Go to hell almost to a fault where they're more concerned about their their their neighbor

Being punished more than they're concerned about Christ being glorified in the gospel message Yeah, right and That's dangerous.

And that that's a the reason I bring it up like it not to kind of put a wet blanket on anything But that's that's a danger that ministers everyone on this computer screen and everybody listening if you're not careful you run into the danger of that if you begin to twist

Your scripture or your gospel message to either fit Your your societal view or to be easy on people or to be hard on people, right?

I mean, let's look at it both sides if you if you use scripture as a weapon against people to make them act the way that you want them to act that's sinful if you

Twist scripture to make it seem less Severe than it actually is then you're being sinful

It's not our job to dictate the way scriptures and interpreted by focus our job to interpret scriptures

And this is what like Billy Ray Collins says everybody who knows knows right you come get the facts as best

We understand them and that's what we got Sure, it's and if we're not careful

Every one of us can fall into this trap because every one of us are wicked vile creatures left our own devices

Yeah, well, we talked about Satan here a couple weeks ago and and you know, the god of this world and you

Know and that's one of the things that says about the enemy that he's been a liar from the beginning. That's right. And and so You know, we put colors on lies

Well, this is like a little white lie, you know, or this is a yellow. This is a big lie

You know, it's a black eye or whatever. We want to cut but whatever color you attach to it Lies a lot but that's the thing that happens in Colts is

Is It's a small lie. That's believable That grows and so for example, it feels a whole lot better speaking about hail

It feels a whole lot better to tell someone that no, there's not hail, but you're just annihilated

It's they believe that if you die apart from Jehovah then

Then you will you just you're just annihilated, you know what I mean? So So that's that's a big part of you know,

I'm saying annihilation so So anyways scripture in context, right?

Peter says that that scripture is not given to private interpretation or not We're not given an opportunity to have our truth that word that that phrase

Man, that really grinds my grits every time I hear somebody say speak your truth I think what in the world kind of nonsense is that right?

Let me add this just to close out on my part So the Jehovah's and I'm going to say this earlier just so everyone knows if someone watches this podcast

Do be careful. They have their own set of scriptures. They have their own Bible called the new new world

Translation. Okay in WT. We have all kinds. They think ours are corrupt.

That's right. And and so they so for example It is very very subtle changes, okay

That was that was part of a research and but it was very very subtle changes. They do remove things about blood in there

They do remove things about Jesus as being the Son of God is sometimes

They'll say he is a son of God versus the Son of God Different different things like that.

It's very very subtle like really really subtle But it was their handling of John 1 1 in the beginning was the word and the word was

With a God a God a God. That's right. Exactly. That's so that's real subtle Does that make sense?

Like if you don't have scripture memorized and that's going back to biblically illiterate people That that they might have heard these things

Said in general through church at some point in time. So it's there so they have enough enough remnant of hearing some scriptures

But then they pick up this and be like, oh this must be what it is. And so it's extremely subtle. It's extremely

But but but but a small lie It's my whole life

It's still a lie that completely Inverts the whole doctrine. That's right.

It corrupts the whole doctrine. So So going back to echo that's what made me think about what

John was saying guys if you New world translation if you see it laying around just know what it is

It is not the it is not the infallible inspired Word of God. It is a man -made lie

That is that is rotten to the core that uses the skin of God's Word if you will

But it but it is a wolf in sheep's clothing that that scripture in of itself or not even

I didn't call it scripture But they're said of what they would call scripture is an epitome of what a wolf in sheep's clothing is that it's

It's designed to kill steal and destroy and and it is leading thousands of people to hail

Kindling for the brushfire Way just to pick up on something that you said earlier you talked about how

Where their foundations come from we're we're Christian we're biblical and so one of the warnings is they will use same language

Absolutely, and I like to think about what you say when somebody asks you are you a

Calvinist? What do you always tell them? Why don't you tell me what a Calvinist is? Yeah, what do you mean by that, you know, so that that's what you have to ask when they're using that Same familiar language that we use and we hear what what do you mean by that?

That's right. Absolutely And they'll say I'm a Christian. They'll say y 'all love Jesus. I believe Jesus Was the son of God that they'll they'll tell you that But then they won't tell you that Jesus is

God And like that's one. I mean, I know we may get in there in a minute But like one of their major doctrinal things is they don't believe in the

Trinity, you know The Father Son and Holy Spirit as as as God They they believe in Jehovah.

They believe Jesus was the Son of God, but not God and they don't believe in the Holy Spirit as the person of the

Holy Spirit The Holy Spirit is just the manifestation of the power of God So it's more of an essence versus the person of the

Holy Spirit. And so so they totally like reject the the ideology of God the

Father God the Son and God the Holy Spirit they Rejected so so so that's just but they'll use the same language.

They'll say yeah, Jesus was the son of God. Yeah Yeah, we believe in the Holy Spirit. Yeah, that's the that's the power of God the

Holy Spirit Will you earn when we're preaching in the conference coming up here at the end of end of April that that we would say

Yes, the Holy Spirit that that's the power of God in us We would say that and they would say yes and amen

But then like you said Robert you got to press in and be like no Okay, no, tell me what you mean by that versus what

I mean and and so it's really subtle and but it is

Both of their evangelism efforts and they're in their religion and it is still evangelism this just Not evangelism to Christ, you know, it's an effort to win people to their it is

Remarkably At least in the beginning Very similar to the language of Orthodox Christianity and so So I hope people listen to this and would be ever so careful to to recognize it for what it is that it is

It is lies from hell. So amen. It's you too Claude. Love you, buddy.

Can't wait. Yeah Absolutely So they did

Jehovah's Witness, they don't believe that Jesus is God Just another nugget of truth. They believe that Jesus was

Michael the Archangel now this other group that we're looking at they do believe that Jesus is

God now, hold on. But what do they mean by that? Hold on Cuz I this is an area that I have some experience ministering to more with it.

So Just here recently so just here recently,

I was witnessing to a Mormon at a guitar place up in Charlotte was picking on guitar and And I was playing gospel songs talking to him about different things, of course

I'm just really more or less waiting on opportunity to slap him with Jesus. You know what I mean? But anyway as uh as we get to that part figuratively

That's exactly right. Yeah. Yeah, I wasn't gonna lay hands on him unless he was sick, right? Anyway As we were talking he he brought up that he was

LDS Do I need to paraphrase our own to break that down or everybody you think?

Okay, so the The Mormons also known as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day

Saints or LDS for short Are another occult group some kind of a sex cult where they believe that if you do right in their world

You get your own world that you get to be God over that Jesus and Lucifer are brothers and Their God's name is something else if it escapes me at the moment

All this course was revealed to a man in secret by an angel named Moroni Up in Ohio, I think originally

I'm going from memory here based off some of the conversations I've had with several of them over the years And he would say we believe

Jesus is divine Hmm, but we can't say he is the God So it's not

Dissimilar you understand from saying Jesus is a God. So what they're doing is they're taking

Christ's Holiness his otherness his his divinity and they're dragging it down and putting it into a place of question

Anything that pulls Christ. I'm done tearing my stuff up anything that pulls Christ off of his throne and Seeks to exalt another is a cult period.

I don't care if it's the Pope I don't care if it's whoever is whatever that Anderson Boys Church is wherever it's at or he's the leader of it

I don't care what it is. I Don't care if it's the lizard people of Papua New Guinea if if it seeks to honor

Something above Christ. It's a cult right now His his understanding of Scripture was so So abused to him

That you you're talking to him. He was like see he would say things like Holy Spirit tells me this

He never said the term the Holy Spirit That's important because when you say the you're talking about a defining article now

We're talking about none other than God. So if you say Holy Spirit You're taking away the definite article of that statement, right?

Would y 'all be in agreement with that? I'm not great at English language, but that's the way I understood a little bit. I understand of it.

So again, he's exalting something higher than God and in this place, it's going to be his intuition or His teachers or somebody inside of their cult that tells him what the scripture means

Instead of letting the Holy Spirit the definite article Holy Spirit take scripture and interpret scripture

Being that he's the one who breathed this scripture. They're using another man.

They've exalted a man now Over the place of who is supposed to be the one that leads and guides them in this truth now

They're being led by another flesh -and -blood Individual and I'm going to tell you that it is so difficult

It is once somebody is brainwashed to this level it is so difficult to see them brought out of it

I I used to go to church with a man actually I went to church with a couple people who were by God's grace redeemed out of that Mormon cult and they would tell you things that make your hair stand on in some of the some of the practices and some of the

Some of the abuses and I'm not necessarily talking about physical abuse or even sexual abuse so much as I'm talking about Abusing God's Word we talked about this the other day

Robin You said how can you abuse a gift if you don't have a gift, right?

You can abuse people by taking something and equating it with God's Word and never have

God's Word not God's Authentic Word and you can abuse people from ever listening to the real scripture ever

You've cast their ears to it or whatever the case I don't know what the word is that you want to use but you feed people a bunch of lies

And truth be told not that a man can ever get through to another man. It takes God getting through to that man.

However Once somebody has has been fed this tissue of lies over and over again and are bought into it

Once even once they're saved if they're saved there's things they're continually relearning over and over again the things that I've seen

The things that I've seen some of these brothers and sisters go through on into their adult years on into their senior years whenever you start talking about something and they cringe and They and they're so sensitive to you saying a certain word because in their past that's been abused

That's been used to get something over on them or take something from them. So when you say this word

They're they're on a razor's edge Not knowing if you're fixing to fall into the if they're you're fixing to try to get them to fall into the same trap somebody else

Gets them to fall into and never they're younger God has to be

Final and authoritative in your message. You don't get to have your own interpretation of it it has to be the truth and I can't say it enough anything that exalts itself above Christ is

Demonic is a cultic and seeks to destroy you your family your world

Everything it can get its hands on. I can't say that enough That's why I love a W Tozer what you think about when you think about Jesus says more about you than anything else

If if if in your heart Christ is exalted above everything if in your heart

Christ is most precious to you you'd hate to shame him or or to give him a bad reputation in the community because you've taken his name and you've

Misrepresented him with friends your neighbors or your family your church member or whatever the case may be If he is that precious to you

Then that is a sign that the Holy Spirit lives in you and seeks to exalt

Christ and everything, right? He's he comes to comfort us but to testify of Christ the same way that Christ testifies of the

Father when he's here If I could follow that up with Psalm 115 yo my brother

I've been pretty quiet on this one But Psalm 115 has been coming to mind a lot for me lately

Whether it's the Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses or just other things in in the

Christian Pseudo -culture because a lot of times it's like a Christian skin almost like a chameleon that it looks like it

Smells like it might even taste like it, but it's not it At the end this is where it goes astray

Not unto us O Lord not unto us but unto thy name give glory for thy mercy and for thy truth's sake

Wherefore should the heathen say where now is there God speaking to the believer? but our

God is in the heavens and He hath done whatsoever. He hath pleased that is not the

God of Mormonism It is not the God of the Jehovah It's not the

God of the Jehovah's Witnesses Says their idols are silver and gold the work of men's hands

They have mouths, but they speak not eyes have they but they see not They've ears, but they hear not noses have they but they smell not they have hands

But they handle not feet have they but they walk not Speak they though their throat that neither speak they through their throat they have the appearance of being functional

But they don't work And then it says they that make them are like unto them

And so is everyone that trusted in them that there's a component where we become what we worship

Hmm that what when we worship idols we become shaped by the idols we've created

And that speaks very loudly about what we see with Mormonism with this idea of Becoming your own little

G God Yeah, that it's really just another manifestation of the pride of men.

That's right This is just another way that The carnal person has devised a way to rebel against God To exalt themself in their majesty to build another tower in Babel and reach up to the heavens.

Come on for themselves. I Just recorded this week's episode on Job and this is where we were is a tower of Babel That let us build a name for ourselves, let us build our own way to the heavens

Let us keep ourselves from being scattered and God says scatter him Bye yeah, and then in the next chapter he goes to Abram and says

I will make your name great The very thing that they wanted at Babel God promises to Abram not for his sake

But for the glory of God, I mean that for Abram its name to be great for Abram to be blessed

Was in accordance with what glorifies God? And that is what separates

Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons from the true faith This is why Paul says if I or any even an angel from heaven

Preach to you any other gospel Let them be accursed Because there is one way there is one truth and it is centered on God Not what we do not what we get not what we want

God to be But to worship God for who he is as he has told us that he is

So let me say this let me say this Jehovah's Witnesses have slowed in America with their

With their proselyting as far as actually success in that because there has in an expression among Christians I didn't say that a while ago that that was in the early to mid 90s when they were targeting

Southern Baptists in those groups. I praise God that among among Generally speaking that has slowed and that's why they are moving to Third -world countries on the other hand though Mormonism is more sophisticated

Than Jehovah's Witnesses and so so Mormonism Is is a

American homegrown religion and and in its surface

They're not going to tell you the crazy stuff in the beginning They're not going to tell you that you're going to eventually become your own

God They're not going to tell you about special underwear that you wear. They're not going to tell you about, you know, all the cultish things

Well, they're going to tell you very Christianese Language they're going to they're really going to talk in a very layman term that that is that is very inviting and And so so they are going to tell you they believe in God the

Father God the Son and God the Holy Spirit They're going to tell you they believe just like you do if you're a

Christian And and those that they're trying to reach that are not Christians, but think they're

Christians, you know I mean, they're at least got some form of godliness, you know, but they really don't have the power thereof

They know the the languages of Zion. So so just know that if you're listening out there, too

I just wanted to add that that the Mormons are much more sophisticated in their approach. They also have a much more elite format when it comes to education

So like Brigham Young University, you know, they got great football team great basketball team, you know all this kind of stuff will

Brigham Young University is named after the the President of the of the

Mormon religion that which was right after Joseph Smith was like Brigham Young, you know, I mean like he Salt Lake City was established the whole city by Mormons the entire city is

Rooted on Mormonism so a very wealthy group far more wealthy in America than people would ever realize and we had a

Mormon that was put up for president. You might remember his name. Mm -hmm Mitt Romney Mitt Romney, that's right.

Yeah, so hi hi morals But very very high moral people

Going to be on the same page with moral issues as many Christians will so So again, they're not going to promote the weird stuff.

They're not going to promote the cult stuff So that's why it's important for us to expose them and so Because they're going to be

This even greater than Jehovah's Witnesses to a degree Mormons are some of the sweetest people you ever be around I mean just as far just hanging out like be a nice clean living clean -cut

You know middle to high end, you know class people gonna have some money gonna you know,

I mean they're like They're gonna look like it's all together, you know, and so So there's a little guys though with ties with the name bags ride bicycles, by the way, if anybody's wondering

That's right Just know that I wanted to throw that out there to make sure that everybody understands

Jehovah's Witnesses are Like I said, they they tend to be to dupe And and and I don't be even a caste system.

But when I say this, I'm cautious That's the reason I use the word illiterate. They tend to go after lower income people or illiterate people now the

Mormons They're they're they're they're upper Escalon, you know, they they tend to They're a lot more money and a lot more power

Then the people realize so So now I didn't know until yesterday that it actually says in the

Book of Mormon that to have dark skin is a curse from God Yeah That's right.

It is literally a sin in Mormonism to be black and This the Jehovah's Witnesses had that in their book until like the civil rights movement

They said the darker your complexion the darker your soul, but that didn't age well, so they removed it you know, because if you've got a sliding scale and your book is just more or less a

Photocopy of whatever's going on in society, whatever's morally acceptable Then you're you know, your doctrine can change with every presidential administration correct

Which by definition if you're listening makes it not holy Mm -hmm the word hope if your if your document is not holy

Our Bible is holy. It's different. It's set apart. It's It's it's other than it's nothing there's nothing else like the

Bible and all of creation and all of the written works that Exist in libraries across the land.

The Bible is Holy with the W and holy with an H different Amen Well going back to what you said

Tyler I don't let anybody out anybody off the hook and you guys may be familiar with this but Some of our ancestors

Beliefs similarly it wasn't ever in our Confessions of faith or anything any of our doctrines official doctrinal statements, but they believe similarly to that And they called it

Effects of the curse of him. Yeah, and I think I had recent relatives that believe in that That they you know, they had darker skin because the curse of him which was which is unbiblical and not true

But when it comes to the Mormons, I believe I believe that That curse came from the

The kicking out of Satan when when Jesus and Satan were offering their ideas to God Which is the better plan and Satan lost and so when he was cast out

The that's where the people of color come from was that part of that curse, I think What which is crazy, too?

So you're insinuating that a bunch of upper -class and upper crust white guys

Made a religion that somehow another condemned all the black guys That's a shocker in it,

I'm just Well, imagine that imagine how you can twist scripture to you know, fit your agenda.

It's amazing inside and terrible Absolutely terrible. What'd you say about first get a glacier chapter 1

Tyler? if any Preach to you gospel other than what

I have preached to you Even if he's an angel from heaven that might be changing some word order a little bit. That's good enough Let him be accursed

Yeah, I mean the other thing Mormonism very attractive today too is is

Such a high level of interest in mysticism in America. So if you when you read the history of Mormonism You know

Joseph Smith really really was almost like a wizard, you know, I mean when you when you come down to it like he you know

By the way, he was Presbyterian dabbling with a little Methodism. So so there's another jab at Dan, you know

And Tyler says he's Presbyterian in a non -denominational church, so hey But So there but again, here's another guy with Christian roots.

Okay You know and then supposedly he goes out has this revelation here's the thing that I would say

Joseph Smith when in the founding of Mormonism it is all based upon his religion religious experiences and visions so so You know not to drag us back to an old beat a dead horse in the head of cessationism and continuationism and all that kind of stuff

But there is I think legitimate times that the Lord has met with people and But not for extra biblical revelation not for extra biblical visions and dreams.

I think he has Given people in my opinion. He's given me a vision for my church Okay, I mean he birthed that in me and and I have a vision

But my vision that I have in a dream that he's given me and things and for thoughts toward the future

Those things are still relegated to the authority of Scripture. Yep And so that still comes back to that.

So Joseph Smith on the other hand He supposedly meets with God the Father and God the Son and in a unified voice

They tell him not to join any of these groups. None of these denominations none of this stuff and so that's where it started with him, but then it gets really interesting with like the plates and Like if not to beat a dead horse, but like, you know

He's the only one with the translating thing, you know, so he's he's the only one that when he reads these scrolls

He's the only one that can translate it. If you've got somebody that's saying that I'm the only one that can read this.

Yeah, then Ding ding ding Colt. Okay, like Colt one thing that I love about the

Bible God has made it plain for all now Don't Romans one tells us not only through creation, but now through his written word.

He has made it plain Who he is these Colts are are made up of situations where it was not plain for everyone but only for Someone and then that someone is the only vine of revelation

You can start throwing Islam into this and different things where it's Muhammad and whatever prophet whatever that one that they have

The revelation and it came through this one person. That was not for Being tested by all but this one person carries the revelation that then

Then that's that's danger. So but anyway, I'll into that category Yeah, do

I wouldn't a Catholic Church and a Pope fall in that category? Absolutely. I think so too.

You got a continuation of revelation the authority of the Pope and so Absolutely, and so that's so that's what's dangerous.

But anyways, there's an attraction with modern television and Harry Potter's and you know different things that you want to look at whatever out there that you want to say that has mysticism and Wizards and that kind of stuff.

I mean, I even know that I know Like Lord of the Rings was meant to be a

Christian imagery But at the same time it could easily be misconstrued, you know of looking at those things and so we just So people are attracted to magic for lack of better terms they're attracted to this mysticism and the

Mormon Church Really plays to that attraction, you know that that once you get into the roots of it

You know, you're going to get magic you're going to be a creator. You're going to be able to Cast spells and do these things, you know what

I mean? Not necessarily they don't use that language You know I'm saying I mean it's like there's this deep attraction to that but even in its roots it's

You've got a wizard by the name of Joseph Smith and he had this magic prophetic ability to read hieroglyphics that told of an ancient people long long ago, you know,

I mean It's like it's like the the writings of a movie star, you know a long long time ago in a galaxy far away

So Just to wrap up and give a really brief additional part of their history

One of the big phrases that they like to use as Mormons is as man is God once was you have to think about this slowly as man is

God once was And as God is man can be or something like that.

I think it's very close disgusting Is that's a popular phrase from them and then just a part of their history

You guys have touched on it there Joseph Smith, and I think you said is the name of the angel was

Moroni? He met with him on the mountain New York But yeah, he gave him golden tablets

Yeah, and then like Jonathan said, you know, he had the ability to read these golden tablets

But then he lost them and then when it come that time to translate and write down The Book of Mormon he had to do it by memory.

So sure. Yeah crazy stuff as we wrap this up I didn't get to use this resource, but I would

I would encourage people you you know Everything's on the internet now good and bad, but I think

All of you would would be okay with me saying that blue letter Bible is is a good resource

They have quick reference guides for Joe's witness and Mormons Just looking at the list here

What they what they say about the Trinity and then what God says the Bible about the Trinity about the

Holy Spirit Jesus and Michael the Archangel the resurrection the cross so on and on and on what?

Joe's witness or Mormons would say and then what the Bible says looks like a really really good resource And with that being said,

I appreciate everybody's input and Jonathan if you'd share the gospel with us tonight and Tyler, would you mind closes in prayer?

Well real quick too as you're given resources as well. I had two books that I wanted to recommend to Be careful

Like Robert said just going on and googling that that is one of the new traps too that they've got real savvy with the internet

So you can go Google and they have these very attractive all cults do by the way They have very attractive websites of those kind of things that people can get sucked into but sometimes you just it's good to pick up A good book as well.

Not just what you can Google So Ron Rhodes, this is a little bit more of expensive book

It's about $25 But Ron Rhodes wrote a book called the challenge of of cults and new religions.

And so so he's speaking about In the world, what is what is the what makes it difficult, you know?

And so he really does a good job pointing out some of the pitfalls of it And then there's a real simple inexpensive book usually about 10 11 bucks

Fritz Ridenour, it's called so what's the difference and he really just spends time on multiple different cults pointing out the difference between Christianity and that cult just so that you can see see it on paper, you know

And and it's a very inexpensive Book pretty simple. So what's the difference and then if you want to you know, get on out there

There's tons of cults and religious books. You can go to your local Christian school and Tons of stuff in the library as well that if you want to really dig into it so the gospel

Robert knows this is one of one of my favorite things to do and I've told him the other week I always hold my breath. I hope I'm like a little kid in the can

Please please call me please. So, you know, we all love this part of our podcast and our time together to share the gospel and tonight we're talking about Cults in the world false religions and And the reason there's false religions it goes it goes actually all the way back to the beginning

God had given a mandate to Adam and Eve That you can do you can eat of anything that you want

This world is created for you. You're created for eternity and God saying

I created this for you to enjoy me and enjoy my creation for all of eternity and And you can eat of anything but just don't eat of this and if you eat of this tree of the knowledge of good and evil if you eat of this tree, you're going to truly die and And and so that was

God's first law that was his first mandate in the earth to mankind to Adam and Eve Along comes a serpent which is

Satan in the form of Satan and like I mentioned earlier the Bible tells us He was a liar from the beginning. What was his lie?

His lie was well if you eat of this Surely you won't die Surely you won't die you

You'll actually become like God So Tyler was mentioning that earlier too is the appeal to become our own

God to become like God and And in the in the deeper levels of Mormonism, that's what they're selling you is that you're going to become like God So actually this cult this religion is no new religion

This is this is these lies go all the way back to the beginning To Genesis chapter 3 and in Genesis chapter 3 in Christianity That's what we call the fall that is we're seeing in it into the world.

That's where man disobeyed God And from that point in time man

Inherited a DNA that causes us to now love

Ourselves love the world Romans chapter 3 gives the verdict of God over mankind.

It says all like sheep have gone astray all all have Lying lips all are swift to shed blood

The ESV translated this way that that all have become worthless before God That that no one is pursuing him.

No one's desiring him and and the Accumulation of that is Romans 3 23 that says and then all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God so we go all the way back to the beginning with Adam and Eve and they sin against God and Then through that DNA through that one man's sin then all men have become sinful and there's a reality that we have in Scripture that tells us that in order to To go to heaven in order to have eternal life in order to be in the presence of God God's law tells us that we have to be perfect as he is perfect that God has no communion or fellowship with sin

And so now now we have a real problem because we just learned that all have sinned

All have gone astray all fall short of the glory of God But then

God says the only way to get to heaven the only way to eternal life the only way to me is to be perfect as I am perfect and so now we have a huge chasm between mankind and God and the

Condemnation of God is over the face of the earth So then if that's the end of the story

What hope is there? I mean that we are lost and undone and I hope tonight

You would start there if you don't believe on Jesus that you would start there You you need to understand your lostness and you sin against God and you are

Separated from a holy God and there's a tremendous chasm that no amount of work will help you swim across that chasm and For all of eternity if you do not have a hope and I'm about to tell you about just a second

For all of eternity, you'll be under the wrath of God but in God in his rich mercy and love

Ephesians chapter 1 tells us in his in his Tremendous rich love that God so so loved

The world so loved these people without distinction that he gave his only son now, what's the significance of that?

I told you about the law a second ago that says first of all, you have to be holy as he is holy to inherit eternal life and Then then the

Bible says in them without the shedding of blood. There is no forgiveness of sin So because that's where we're asking the question now, how can we bridge the chasm?

How can we how can we somehow? Make it to God and we're all trying to figure out a way to work our way to overcome and God says there is no works

But I will do what you can't do That I will send my son and he will do the impossible

Isaiah chapter 53 tells us then he Takes our sin takes our guilt takes our shame and the

Bible says that it pleased God to crush him Under the weight of that that all of our guilt and all of our shame

Was put upon christ was put upon him in colossians chapter 2 and chapter 3.

I love I love the presentation of paul's Explanation of the gospel in there in the in through that in the heart of those two chapters

It says right there then then God took our sin And nailed it to the cross and blotted it out of the way with its legal demand

In other words, you and I are under absolute condemnation because we're lawbreakers

We're god haters But then God takes that sin And nails it to the cross and blots it out of the way

That he who knew no sin became our sin and who is he that is Jesus Christ He had never sinned

He was absolutely perfect absolutely fulfilled every expectation of perfection and righteousness and being right with God And the bible says that he who knew no sin became our sin

So our sin was put on him and nailed to the cross and blotted out of the way And he became this fancy word called the perpetuation for our sin

In other words that when he went to the cross the shedding of his blood satisfied the wrath of god

It satisfied and removed this condemnation that was upon us and all that believe

In that finished work of Jesus the bible says that you are made righteous. In other words, he took our sin

And then we he turned around and gave us his righteousness So then in other words you become right with God there that chasm that was impossible to cross

That imperfection Jesus says I am the way the truth and the life I am the way to come across this chasm.

Now. It is a narrow way It's not all roads lead across that chasm, but it is a narrow way that the son of God Jesus Christ Came as a man took on our form of flesh

And in the flesh took our sin and nailed it to the cross blotted out of the way And then he gave us our his perfection and as a result the condemned people

You know what our triumphant call is one one. There's multiple passages, but one of my favorites Romans chapter 8 verse 1 on the other hand now says therefore

This group that was condemned because of their sin. Therefore there is no condemnation for them that are in Christ That no condemnation means that when

God looks at us He no longer sees a person that's a romans 3 23 person that has fallen short of the glory of god

He sees a person that is completely reconciled to him in christ forgiven and redeemed

And so what i'll tell you beloved is that there is no religion in the world that offers you that they're going to offer you some kind of mixed up Foolish doctrinal thing that says somehow by your works

You'll be able to cross this chasm if you have good morals and you and you behave yourself

And you give lots of money and you do this somehow you will buy your way across this the catholic church started that mess

When there's like you can somehow buy penance, you know pay your way pay Pay your loved one's way into heaven or pay your way into heaven

That is a lie from a devil's hell who is a liar from the beginning Who does everything he can do to continue to deceive people from believing on the son of god clinging to the tree of life?

And so what I would encourage you today is to believe on jesus because he is the way He is the truth and he is in life

And he is the escape condemnation and no one crosses that chasm. No one comes to the father

Except by him and so that is the truth of the gospel and we hope that you would believe on jesus

And tonight receive eternal life. God bless you man. Praise the lord Father god, i'm grateful that we've been reminded

Of just how good the good news is amen That we see the substitutes that we've developed over the years for what they are

And that we you've called us to wrestle with These other ideas because they're not the true thing

They don't make the good news good. They make the bad news good Lord, I pray for The words have been said

That they would bear fruit Um to make the good news good

Christ precious precious name we pray amen Amen. Thank you brothers and thank you all for watching.

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Thank you for joining the laborers podcast Remember jesus is king live in the victory of christ