Book of Romans - Unity in the Church | Understanding Spiritual Gifts, Pt. 4 (10/24/202)

The Authority of Scripture and Church History on Sign Gifts

All right, so, last time, right at the end, we talked about how, actually, you got the word of God talking about the topic that we're on here, which is which of the sign gifts still operate today and which ones have ceased in the church, all right?

And if a church doesn't understand that, there'll be division over it. There just always has, through all the history of the church, there'll be division over that sort of thing. So, what do you go to to find the right answers?

Two things, you go to scripture, which is the highest authority that we have, that's God speaking to us, and then you go and you look at 2 ,000 years of church history and see what our brothers and sisters have thought and said about the passages of scripture that deal with it and what they've observed in the church through those years.

A lot of people skip that step because they say, we just go by the Bible, but we're gonna talk about that a little bit today, too. But if you do look at church history, which is the scripture comes first, then you look at church history.

If you look at the church history, the huge majority of conservative, godly Bible scholars, missionaries, evangelists, pastors from every century, including the 20th century, agree that the sign gifts ceased to be operative early in the life of the church.

So, that's a fact if you study church history. If anybody's gone, if you go to seminary, you study church history. If you don't go to seminary like me and you're self-taught, nobody's self-taught, but I had Dr. Freeman, yes, she got him without the braids.

If you're wondering, guys, we had an intrusion of a fly flying around here, he's gone now, hallelujah. Thank you, sister. So, you know, you look at church history, if you're self-taught, you try to read a lot.

And so, I've read quite a few church history books written from different denominations and even some of the Catholic material. And this is a fact that the huge majority think that the certain gifts that we've already talked about in the previous messages, if you didn't hear them, you can go back and look at the archives on the website and listen to those.

And we will show you in the previous messages which ones Paul said would cease and when he said they would cease. And now what we're looking at is a little bit of history to see if church history says they ceased or not.

That'll be interesting. We're gonna look at more scripture on it too, we're not done with the scripture part either. So there's the two parts, the word of God and church history, in other words, what our brothers and sisters have said about it.

He's up here now, Ashton, would you come with your, sit right here with your flyswatter and hit me right in the head, man. Oh, here he is, here, wait, wait, wait, boy, bring me the flyswatter, he's right there on the stool.

We might need, I used to keep a can of Raid right back there by my equipment so that I could spray bugs when they interfere with the thing. We need to get another bottle, can of Raid. I'll just keep it right here, because he's right here.

I mean, I know what he'll do, he'll fly around me so that you can't listen to what I'm saying. Yeah, bring me the bat, thank you. I'd rather have you sit here with it, though, than me do it. You don't wanna, make sure you get this one recorded, this will be historic.

I'm not gonna be able to use it, but I might, if he lands on that stool again, I'll get him. So this is not gonna distract me in the least, I hope it doesn't distract you. All right, now last time we mentioned all of those books of the New Testament, right down at the bottom, see them, boom, boom, boom.

Most of the New Testament, which these are the books that were written after 60 AD, none of them talk about tongue speaking, faith healing, or any of the apostolic gifts, unless they refer to it as having happened in the past.

So, and there's only one mention of that. So they don't mention it. Now, don't you think that if they were prominent gifts in the early church, that those books of the Bible, such as Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, would talk about it, but none of them do.

So you have 1 Corinthians, written in AD 59, you got 1 Thessalonians, one of the earliest books, other than the Gospels, I suppose, written AD 54, they mention it. And the book of Acts mentions languages, people speaking languages without having studied them in college.

It does not mention gibberish, which is spoken in a lot of the charismatic Pentecostal churches. And so it's interesting to me that the scriptures beyond 60 AD in the early church, it seems to have already waned.

I'm not saying it was totally gone, but it was not an important thing that they talked about after 60 AD. Why would you suppose that might be if you just want to use some, there he goes, see, he don't like that.

He's got a little demon, a tiny little demon in that fly. So anyway, why do you suppose that God would begin to remove these sorts of sign gifts? Well, first of all, their purpose was done because their purpose was to authenticate.

Dave, do not let people laugh at me with that thing flying around me. If you see him, you come up here and get him. You got that? That's a good son. I don't care what you have to do to kill the fly. I'm brave.

I can handle it. Anyway, the purpose was to authenticate the messengers. And that was finished very early on. And certainly by the time the apostles had all passed away, another generation goes by. You have men like Polycarp, who was one of the great pastors of the time, who knew John and learned from John and so forth.

And then the next generation, all of a sudden there was no longer a need to authenticate the message because the messengers were gone. They'd already given the message. And now we have the word of God.

We have the New Testament too. And not too long after that, you had all of the books of the New Testament finished. They had been penned by the humans that the Holy Spirit used and they were in the world.

And not too long after that, they were in one book. And by that time, we know that these sign gifts had ceased and thank you, bless you, missed him. That's all right. You scared him. He knows we don't like him.

I think there may be more than one or two in here is what I'm thinking. Were those kids having that big party in this church with the doors open, brother Paul, or what? I think they were. Because kids have flies.

You know that, right? I mean, they draw flies. Anyway, whatever. You're gonna be laughing because it's me that draws the flies. I think it's my shampoo that they like it a whole lot. Or my lack thereof, who knows?

Anyway, so, oh, there's another one. It's gonna be an interesting service today. We're swatting demons today. It's very appropriate. Okay, so the problem is that if we have indication from scripture where Paul says here that these gifts will pass away and we have indication from church history that they did, and we see in Hebrews chapter one, one through three, that God says he will not operate like he did in the Old Testament through prophets, visions, dreams, things like that, but he'll do it in a different way in the future, which would be through his son, Jesus, which he is the word.

And we now have the written word with Jesus. When he left, he said, I will tell you things you weren't ready to hear when I was there. The Holy Spirit will tell you the rest of it. And now we have it.

And that's what the perfect is. It's the only perfect thing. It's in the neuter in the Greek. So it's not a person. It's not Jesus coming back. It's not the second coming. It would make no sense at all for the scripture to say it's going to leave if it didn't leave till the church age was over, because this is written to the church.

It'd make no sense at all. It's just logic. So it has to be a message that at some point prior to the second coming, these particular gifts go away. Now, if the Holy Spirit says they go away and then people say the Holy Spirit is causing these in our church, then you have the Holy Spirit lying.

And I don't believe he'll do that. You have the Holy Spirit contradicting himself. And I don't believe he'll do that. If he says, I won't do that until the last three and a half years of the tribulation, which is exactly what the Holy Spirit says.

If you read what the scripture says about these gifts, they don't come back until the last three and a half years of the tribulation period. They can't come back if they didn't leave. You've heard all the logic.

It's sound logic. And so they have to be created by other spirits. Now that's a problem in the church. If it's not the Holy Spirit, as the Apostle Paul said, there are other Jesus's, other spirits in other gospels.

If it's other spirits mimicking the Holy Spirit, and I am not saying that those gifts aren't real and don't happen, I'm saying it's not God causing them. Now, it's not just me saying it, it's logic that I use based on what the scripture says.

And God said, come, let us reason together. We have to use our minds. If we don't, we end up following false spirits. If we don't test and try the spirits, we end up being deceived by demons who are mimicking the Holy Spirit.

If you don't think that happens, we'll look in scripture in a moment and see the highest authority we have. And we will see if it has already happened. But God says in 1 Corinthians 13, eight through 10, that tongue speaking and prophesying and words of knowledge would cease.

We call these sign gifts. The Bible doesn't call them that. That's what theologians call them. And I happen to agree with those theologians. I think it's a great term. Sign gifts because they were there to authenticate the speakers of the New Testament to the Jews who weren't gonna believe it because the Jew requires a sign.

And so it was predominantly for the sake of the Jewish people in the first century that these signs were even given. And it's happened a few times through Bible history, even in the Old Testament. During the era of Moses, it happened.

During the era of the prophets, it happened to authenticate the prophets. And then when Jesus came, signs happened all around that first advent. And guess what? They're going to happen again after his second advent.

And that's why they turn back on at the end, the second three and a half years of the tribulation because he's coming again. And that has to be authenticated, believe it or not. You would think when they see him come as lightning from the East to the West, that would authenticate itself.

But you gotta remember, you've had an antichrist on the earth for three and a half years doing signs and miracles through the power of Satan. Now, if he can do signs and miracles, then don't you think people in churches can do signs and miracles through the power of Satan?

Now, how would I think it's Satan? Well, because I don't think the Holy Spirit would lie and say, I'm going to stop doing these things and then do them. So to me, that's a lying spirit doing that. Now, if I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but I mean, you can't get better logic than that.

And I've read the reputations of what other people who want to believe in it try to say, it just doesn't hold water. It would only hold water to a people who don't study or who don't study correctly. They take things out of context willfully to use the Bible to preach something, to teach something that's false.

That kind of, and I'm going to give you an example of that in a minute. And the only reason the example's in here is because one of our students online mentioned the name to me as saying, well, some of this stuff is still happening.

And I want to be, you know, I'm zealous when I preach, I'm zealous for the truth, but I don't like being taken as if I'm being mean. I don't want to be mean about it. I just want to be truthful about it.

I'm going to give facts, okay? And I don't even know the gentleman that they mentioned, never heard of him in my life. He's apparently a big preacher now in this nation, which doesn't surprise me. He's a Trump supporter, which so am I.

That's not the problem. The problem is he rests scripture to make it say what he wants it to say. And that's a problem with me. If any one of you did it, it would be a problem with me. And I would hope that if I did it, you would come to me and say, hey, what do you do with this over here?

What do you do if you go up here in the context, isn't talking about what you said it's talking about. What do you do with that, brother David? I would hope you'd be kind enough to do that. Now, I understand if we do that today, which we're going to do, we're going to expose this error.

And if the gentleman happens to hear this or watch it or see it, I would hope that if perchance the Lord would open his heart and let him repent, which means to change the mind about how he's resting the scripture, that he would come to be a powerful human being for good in this country.

But I'm afraid right now that he's being deceived by lying spirits, thinking he's more powerful than he should be and doing things or at least okaying people that are doing these things. I don't know if he doesn't, because I don't even know him, but I know he supports people that claim to be prophets, particularly people who prophesied that Trump would win the election.

How many of you believe Trump won the election? Okay, all right. Why isn't he president? Because he lost the election, okay? Now, was there cheating going on? Probably, but that same way Kennedy became president, but how many of you think he didn't get elected?

History will prove to you, President Kennedy was actually real and he was elected. He was president of the United States and so is Biden. So the prophets who prophesied that President Trump would be the next president are now saying, well, but he did get elected, but the cheating kept him out.

And it was God's original plan for him to be president, but humans kept that from happening. And we're gonna deal with that kind of thinking here in a minute too, because most of what happens is when you do see these signed gifts reappear a few times throughout church history, not that often, but a few times, they are always surrounded by false doctrine and by people who rest the scriptures to make it say what it does not say.

That's a fact. I've studied church history enough to tell you that is a fact. You won't find someone who is doing those gifts who's not also preaching false doctrine that clearly can be shown with scripture correctly interpreted in its context.

It's just a fact and all historians agree with it that except charismatic historians, right? You know, that's interesting, isn't it? But they don't line up with any of the church history going back 2000 years.

So now, unless it's a church historian who is also preaching false doctrine that's clearly and easily shown. So I don't know about you, but if I see somebody that's resting the scripture and teaching false doctrine, am I actually gonna say that that is a good church historian or a good pastor or a good evangelist or not?

I think the scripture says we're supposed to mark them and avoid them. That's what I think scripture says. You mark them, which means you point out to everybody where they're wrong in the scripture and how they're resting the scripture and you avoid them.

But no, today we've already taught a gospel that God loves everybody and we gotta love everybody and we embrace everybody and we don't wanna cause division. Jesus said, look, you think that I came to be a priest, you think that I came to bring peace and I tell you, nay, but a sword and I will divide mother and father and daughter and father and so forth.

Because the truth, when you put the truth out there, people that are deceived by lying spirits that will never come to that light, they will reject it, move away from it. And the ones who see it as truth cannot fellowship with them and vice versa.

It always brings division. So what I'm trying to talk about is that Roman chapter 12 is a way to avoid division in the church. And one of the sixth point that we've come up with is that if you understand which gifts the Holy Spirit said would stop and why they would stop and when they would stop and you agree with that, then you won't have that division.

So I'm not trying to create division, the division is already there. What I'm praying is that people who don't see this, that God per adventure would open their eyes where they just look at history and be honest with it and just look at the scripture and be honest with that.

And I could care less what you think about me because all I'm here is to make you study. In fact, if you disagree with me, that's fantastic because you'll be the one that'll go study for three weeks, try to prove me wrong.

If you'll just do that, study for three weeks, try to prove me wrong and do it keeping the scripture in context and history accurate, then you will have gained something. And so will I, because that means I'm a good teacher.

If I got you to go study, that's what it's all about. So here we see the scripture saying it goes away. So you have scripture that says it and then you have the history of the church indicates that the signed gifts, that little black thing, is that not saying that it's not being recorded?

Is it being recorded? Okay, there's a little. Oh, great, I didn't know I could see that. It's probably not supposed to be on that screen, but anyway, answer him with scripture, brother. And love, but zeal also.

But anyway, all right. So not only does scripture talk about this issue of these signed gifts, but so does the history of the church. In fact, it indicates that the signed gifts ceased until the end times when they will reappear during the last three and a half years of the tribulation period.

We see even in the Old Testament, it indicates this in the book of Joel chapter two, can't reappear if it didn't disappear. Just logic. Wouldn't hurt for you guys to go online and audit a college course on logic and take the course.

God says, come, let us reason together. If you don't know logic, you don't reason properly. You have all these fallacious arguments that are not allowed in true logic because they're not logical and they're wrong, but you won't know it if you don't study logic sometimes.

So, I mean, if you've got a lot of common sense, you usually get it right. But let me say this. I'll say it as kindly as I can. If you want to believe a lie and you own it as if you made it up, listen, nobody listening to me made up this idea of tongue speaking and telling the future and all these things.

You didn't make it up. So, it's not your theory, right? So, why do we own it? Same thing is so true of thinking that the rapture happened seven years prior to the coming of Christ. Bible doesn't teach that, but we own it, right?

So, then we get emotional and upset when someone points out that's not a fact. So, don't own things like this. Seek the truth. It's not about winning an argument. It's about seeking the truth and the truth is there.

God is the God of truth. He puts it there for us to see. He says it'll set us free. So, here we go. Church history, they ceased, but they're coming back. These sign gifts, they are coming back. Our sons and our daughters shall prophesy and we know from scripture exactly when it comes back, three and a half years into the seven years, they return.

Not a minute before that, by the way. 2 Timothy 4 .3, let's read this together. "'For the time will come.'". When this was written sort of early in the epistle, in the letters, one of the earlier letters, it's actually called a pastoral epistle because it is Paul teaching young Timothy how the church should be, how he should be as a pastor, how deacons should be and all these kinds of things.

Titus is considered part of that as well. So, this is looking forward into the future of the church. Someday, Paul said, someday in the life existence of church history and Paul thought it was gonna happen in his lifetime, the rapture and all that.

Every generation has believed that it would. Not every generation has had enough signs of it for it to really have happened, but they just hoped that it would. It's always been the great hope of every generation of Christians.

That's a good thing. It's a genius. I mean, if you talk about the wisdom, the amazing wisdom of God, imagine being able to write a book in such a way that it gives the signs of when something will happen and a lot of those signs have not happened yet and yet each generation hoped it would happen in theirs.

That's awesome because it's good to have that hope. Did you know if you hope Jesus come back soon, you will live a better, cleaner life? Because you don't want to be found sinning when he comes back. And that's always been powerful in the preacher's handbook.

The handbook of a preacher says once or twice a year, preach on the book of Revelation so your people will be more holy. I mean, it's just kind of all every generation. But look at this, for the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine.

Who is they? You have to read the prior verses to figure out who they is. Those, they is church members. That's good Southern preaching. They is church members, all right? The time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers having itching ears and they shall turn away their ears from the truth and shall be turned to fables.

Somebody tell me what a fable is. Well, it's usually something we'd tell children, right? Little stories. You know, when we grow up, we stop believing those fables, don't we? We're not children anymore.

And the same is true in the church. When you can have any preacher come in that has a little bit of zeal, a little bit of flair in how he dresses, like me, of course, and I'd never make it as a false preacher.

I just don't look good enough to be a false preacher. I'm not friendly enough. I'm not, you know, you gotta have the zeal. You gotta have the magnetism. Just like anybody that sells something that's not real.

You gotta be that way. You gotta be loved by the people. And so this speaks of a time when the church will look for men like that and the church will bring them in because that's who they want to hear because they don't want to hear the truth because truth doesn't fit with what the fable is they want to believe.

So they will bring in fable tellers. And they'll sit there like little children and listen to everything as if they're mesmerized to that man of God. And they are mesmerizing because they do have spirits that help them have power but it's not the Holy Spirit.

I've seen the real Holy Spirit power happen. That happens in this church and our lives. We just mentioned in the prayer list today, young woman who half of her heart was not working. Last Sunday, this church prayed for her and I'll bet you there were some other churches and I wouldn't be surprised if many of those churches don't have a lot of tongue speaking going on in them.

This one doesn't have it. Don't have a lot of words of wisdom going on because we use the word of God as the word of wisdom. We have the canon now. God has spoken. We have it. It's finished. It's complete.

It's the perfect, all right? But God heard our prayers and God made her heart work again by this Sunday. The top half of her heart is now working if I got the story about which half it is, but it's working.

Answered prayer. Please don't think that this church believes God doesn't do miracles. But what this church also believes is that men do not. Whereas apostles and early church prophets could because God gave them the ability to do those to authenticate their message.

That doesn't mean that that continued throughout church history. And you're about to see that the historians, the greatest historians of church history say it didn't. It ceased. Just like the scripture said it wouldn't, 1 Corinthians 13, eight through 10.

So people confuse the issue. So, well, you don't believe in miracles. Oh, we see miracles here weekly, practically. We see answered prayers weekly. We see God doing amazing things all the time in this church, but you don't see this pastor touching you on the head claiming that I did it.

You don't see me. And we deal with demonic issues, not usually with our small group, but we have folks that come in and have needs and we'll deal with that. My mentor was an exorcist. He was a Southern Baptist exorcist, not really an exorcist, but he was a person who knew how to deal with demons from scripture and from having read the history of missionaries overseas and how they dealt with it.

And he was well-schooled in that. And he taught me that and I've dealt with it. But you know what? I never once in my life have ever said, leave that person, I rebuke you, leave them now. And I don't see people in the Bible doing it unless it was an apostle or a prophet.

And even they usually ask the Lord to do it. If you read carefully, it'll say the Lord rebuke you. That's how it's done. Same way as when you pray for the top part of this woman's heart to work, you say, Lord, make it work.

I don't touch her and say, be healed. I don't lay on top of a dead corpse. There's no other kind of corpse is there? It's a little redundant. And then cause them to rise from the grave because I'm not an apostle.

Okay, now I would love to have those gifts. I've dreamed before that I had them. I've dreamed that we had 500 people in this little room and I was healing everybody in the room. Everybody went home well and I felt so good.

It would be awesome. I covet that gift in a sense, but I know I won't get it until three and a half years into the tribulation. And I might be one that gets it or I might not because God doesn't give those gifts to everybody.

He is sovereign and he gives it to who he wants to. And that's another problem with the modern day charismatic movement is they try to teach everybody to do this stuff. That's never been done in the real church.

It's never been done that way in church. You can't teach a gift. So there's so much falseness. I can't touch on all of it. It's just like you, listen, my prayer for you, if you're listening to me today is that you're just at least open enough to want to see the truth for what it is and see the falseness and the deception that's been used.

And you may love it and want to believe it. I'll love it and want to believe it, but I can't believe it if it contradicts scripture and the true Holy Spirit. And so I, you know, I'm not into that. We're not into that, not yet.

Now we don't know where we are on the timeline. I don't think we're into the seven years yet, but we might've been the day Biden got elected, the day they called the people seeking to express their freedom of speech in this country on January 6th, and they called them rioters.

And what else did they call them? Insurrection, yes, which probably is punishable by death. I don't know, but it's ridiculous. So maybe it started then. I don't think so, do you? I just think it's just a sign of how it's coming.

I think COVID is a sign of God saying, look, I'm getting you used to this. Besides that America, you need to be spanked because you're killing babies still. So I'm going to spank you. And you do know when Israel got spanked, even the good prophets got taken captive too, didn't they?

So some of this affects us too, when we live in a nation that begins to hate God in God's ways. And there comes a point when God says, come out from her. So think about that. I don't know when that point is, but I think when we know, I think God let us know when the point is, if we seek truth.

Sound Doctrine, Fables, and the Great Falling Away

All right, so the time will come though when the church will not endure sound doctrine, where churches that have sound doctrine are small and giant gatherings in football stadiums with preachers preaching and healing people will be large because they bring these people because they have itching ears wanting to hear this false stuff because it feels good to them.

It makes them feel good that they have more faith than everyone else, which in itself is pride. And it all works together and Satan just loves it because it divides the church. We ought to all be together.

We ought to all be brothers and sisters together, seemingly from a human viewpoint. But God in his wisdom and his sovereign plan did not bring it to pass that way because he said, I tell you, I did not come to bring peace.

I came to divide as with a sword because the truth will divide. So it's not a bad thing that we have a small little church with unity and we understand how and the rules of how to read the scripture, how to get to the truth.

And we desire the truth so much that if anyone points out we're wrong, we will change it. That's the kind of people you want to hang out with. I don't mean just people like us, but I mean, people like that.

If you can find them, that's who you want, is you want somebody who cares about the truth. But people, so many people today, and I think that day is now, we're in the day he was referring to, the great falling away of the truth.

The apostasy is upon us. And they will, you know, after their own lust because of the stuff their emotions want to feel and sense and see with their eyes, it's not a faith-based thing. I mean, we're supposed to be in a faith dispensation, the church age, but no, we need to have sight.

You know, we've got to have sight. We want to see something. So we're lusting to see these things. So we heap to ourselves these kinds of teachers. Tell me that's not going on. All right, they shall turn away their ears from the truth and they will turn to fables.

Anytime a man stands up, I don't care if he looks like an angel of God and he speaks as an angel of light. And he tells you things that clearly contradict the scripture. And he wrestles with that scripture and make it say what he wants it to say.

You are listening to fables and you're liking it. Okay, so if that's you, repent from that today, please. Repent from it. Change your mind about it, that you would prefer truth even if it doesn't feel as good.

You would prefer truth even if God does not turn out to be at all like God was portrayed to you. Because there are other Jesuses, other gospels, other spirits. Have you invented a Jesus that's not even the Jesus of the Bible?

Because I will tell you what he would do if he came into a temple with that stuff going on is he would turn the tables over with a whip and he would run those people out so that the ones that stayed could be in truth and unity together.

That's what Jesus would do. Is that the Jesus you believe in or you believe one just loves everybody and just wants peace in the room, wants us all to be happy together even with error and truth mixed together, a mixed multitude just like Israel had in the wilderness.

Is that what you want? I don't want that. But the Holy Spirit said there will come a day when the church wants that. We're there. Then the whole reason I had this up here is because I wanted verse 13.

But I like to show context when I try to teach something from a verse. So let's look at verse 13. Paul says, the cloak that I left at Troas with Carpus, when you come, bring it with you and also bring the books and especially the parchments.

Now that's important for our message because we're talking about church history. And I have met friends that when I try to go into church history, no, no, no. We just need to stick with scripture. It's the only authority.

It is not the only authority. It's the highest authority. There are many other authorities. God, as brother Otis said, wrote two books at least. He wrote the word of God and he wrote nature and the universe.

And it shows him just as clearly as the word of God does to people. That shows that he exists just as clearly as the Bible does. And the university created, the creation shows his existence as much. So he wrote those two books, but there are many other great things that we can read by our brothers and sisters who live before us, especially if they observe that these sign language had stopped even before 300 AD.

So you take the rest of those thousands of years from then till now, what is happening if they ceased back then? And if Paul said they would cease and they did cease, then what are we seeing? We're seeing people pulling in these people with having itching ears.

They want to hear what they want to hear. So they hire those kinds of preachers or bring them in to speak to them and they turn away from truth and they would rather hear the fables. That's what we're seeing.

Well, he asked for two things, not one. He didn't just say, bring my Bible. If you look at the word parchments over here, bring me the books and especially the parchments. The word parchment, and I like the fact he said, especially, because the word parchment comes from the Greek word membrana.

And what it actually means is something written on sheepskin, which was very expensive. If you can imagine having, you know, 900 pages of information written on sheepskin, whereas the word for books is biblion, which that might fool you and make you think that means Bible.

That's not what it means. What it means is actually he's talking about the type of material that came from little shoots that grow up near the water and they would flatten those out and call it, what is it, papyrus?