2024 Summer of Interviews: Patrick “the Pactum” Abendroth Interview (2021)

Welcome to No Compromise Radio, a ministry coming to you from Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston. No Compromise Radio is a program dedicated to the ongoing proclamation of Jesus Christ, based on the theme in Galatians 2, verse 5, where the Apostle Paul said, �But we did not yield in subjection to them for even an hour, so that the truth of the gospel would remain with you.

In short, if you like smooth, watered-down words to make you simply feel good, this show isn�t for you. By purpose, we are first biblical, but we can also be controversial. Stay tuned for the next 25 minutes as we�re called by the Divine Trumpet to summon the troops for the honor and glory of her King.

Here�s our host, Pastor Mike Abendroth.

Welcome to No Compromise Radio, a ministry. My name is Mike Abendroth, and we like to call it No Compromise Radio. Well, the old days, it�s because I thought I was tough and never compromised, or didn�t want to.

But now we talk about the Lord Jesus because, can you imagine, out of all the people in the world, never compromised, delighted to do God�s will. I like to have guests on. I like to have theologians, authors, Bible teachers, preachers, pastors, and I like to have my brother on, too.

Pat Abendroth, welcome to No Compromise Radio ministry.

Thanks, Mike. Two Abendroths who say their name wrong. Welcome to Mike Abendroth and Pat Abendroth.

I know.

Well, I thought our side of the family was right, and I didn�t know our side of the family was also Jewish.

I don�t know if you remember or not, but there was actually a time at Omaha Bible Church where we had Abendroths and Abendroths.

No, I didn�t. Tell me the story.

There was a guy named Dave Abendroth who joined the church years ago, and so it was pretty funny. We�re somehow related, obviously, but not that we knew of. So get your pronunciation straight, depending on who you�re talking to.

Well, we had some folks at the church who still do Scott Farrah, F-A-R-R-A-R, and then there was another guy from the Master�s College. His name was Ron, and it was F-A-R-R-A-R, but he didn�t say Farrah.

He said Farrar, so I never knew what to do. Anyway, it�s been quite some time since I�ve had you on this podcast, this radio show, No Compromise Radio, and I wanted to have you on again specifically because now, I guess it runs in the brotherly line.

You have a new podcast, and I really love it, and I want to hear all about it. So give me the scoop so our listeners can have an extra Spotify 1 .5-speed podcast to listen to.

Just trying to follow in my big brother�s footsteps, so we�ll never live up to the expectations.

No, you do it better than I do. You do it better than I do. You might be younger, but you�re smarter and you do things better, so this is going to be a step up from no-go.

We�re trying to join you, and what are we trying to do? We�re trying to trigger dispensationalists and neonomians one person at a time.

I think maybe you do a better job at that than I do.

Calling all Richard Baxterites, calling all Darbyites, please tune in and listen, and then repent.

No.

So, it�s a once-a-week show, right? And it�s called The Pactum. P-A-C-T-U-M. Tell us about that.

Yep.

We�re doing releasing programs on Wednesdays that are pretty short and to the point. I like to call it The Pactum because that includes anything and everything, given the fact that God�s redemptive purposes in The Pactum, the covenant of redemption, would include everything.

So that gives us license to do potpourri theologically, so we�re having a great time. But as you�ve told me before, once you start these things and they get moving, it�s like getting a dog. Once you have a dog, you have to walk the dog, and you have to feed the dog, and you have to train the dog.

I know.

And Wednesdays come every single week, and it�s time to produce more of them.

I know.

Well, what happens, you know, it�s like Proverbs, I don�t know, 30 or something, where it says, �The leech has two sisters. Give, give. Podcasts have every Wednesday, �Give, give.

Uh-huh.

Mike Grimes does it with me. He does a great job. As you�ve told me before, that maybe don�t belong in the pulpit, or there�s not time.

For them.

So it�s another good outlet to talk about theological matters, and maybe let your hair.

Down a little.

People think through issues, whether it�s law-centeredness, or another way to disciple people, and we�re getting some really good feedback. Some of the best feedback I�ve received recently is a friend of mine whose spouse is not very well, they�re into theology, but just not on the same kind of level, and it�s hard for them to have conversations about it.

The other one, not so much. They reached out to me and said, �Hey, thanks. Now we have something to talk about, because it�s robust and not shallow, but at the same time, my spouse is in love with it.

So it made my day.

Well, that is excellent. I�ve been listening. I think I�m only one behind, and I�ve been encouraged as well. So I would encourage our listeners to go to The Pactum on your Spotify or podcast, or you�re on different podcast generators, I would assume, right?

I think on a lot of different ones, maybe not all of them. So thepactum .org is the website, or you can find us on Twitter and Instagram. I know you don�t know what those things are anymore, Mike, because you�re off of social media.

Yes, Pat.

Everything in me wants to be back into it and correct the faults of the world.

Well, I�m sure you�re more sanctified being out of it, but I think there�s a disturbance in the force. No more. No-compromise. No more. Mike Avendroff on Twitter.

Well, you have said, Pat, that you get some encouraging emails, and I�ve even received some feedback here at the church, and they said, �Oh, Pat, you know, in the show and all that. And so you know how it works at Omaha Bible Church.

If they love you, they love me. And here at Bethlehem Bible Church, if they love me, they love you. What�s the, on the flip side, what�s the most negative thing you�ve heard about it so far, if anything?

No comments. I�ll leave you wondering. So if I only sounded like Charlton Heston, maybe they would give us four and a half stars.

I don�t know.

That is so funny. I got a review a long time ago, Pat, and it said, �It sounds like a guy sitting in his office laughing at his own jokes, meandering through theological issues. And I thought, �That is correct.

Well done.

It�s your podcast. You get to do what you want to do. I�m sure there�s always calculation. So when you�re singing Jimi Hendrix songs on the episode, things like that, it�s going to trigger somebody. But at the same time, it makes you kind of, I don�t know.

I guess I like taking theology serious and God serious, but maybe not myself so much.

Anymore.

Or shenanigans, in one sense.

Totally. Well, you know what? And I�m not trying to give you suggestions on what to do, but I always liked it on the Shane Rosenthal would go out to, I don�t know, Christian book conferences and big to-do�s, and he would interview Christian thought leaders, as they�re called, and he would say things.

Those were awesome.

Oh, Pat, if you would go, maybe you could go to different churches. Send your minions to churches with, I don�t know, I could name a few of them right now.

In Omaha.

And then have them ask questions. You know, what�s more important? Doctrine from the pulpit, or things about daily living? And it would just be a great show.

And we�d get ourselves into even more trouble. Can you please tell us, is the Bible a book of timeless truths for Christian living? Is the Bible meant to give us an answer for everything we�d ever have a question about.

In life?

Basic instructions before leaving earth. I thought that was called �My Will to My Children. Well, you�ve been going through. Go ahead.

Go ahead.

No, that�s all right.

For your listeners� edification, you need to know that Mike, one time when he was in Omaha, we were driving on the way to Omaha Bible Church on a Sunday morning for him to preach. And we drove by a big church with a kiosk, and it said, �Loving Yourself.

That was a sermon topic. So after our services, Mike said, �We have to go there and have our picture taken. So we stood and did the self-hug, like when you all wrap your arms around yourself, and it looks like you�re making out with someone.

Well, Pat, the second we were talking about that white horse in deal, I flashed to that memory as well. You know, that was their sermon title, �Loving Yourself kind of thing. And I just thought it was so crazy.

My only regret in that is I was probably, you know, 25 pounds heavier than I am now. So when I look at the picture, I�m sad. I love myself too much.

What makes it even funnier is I became friends with one of their staff pastors, and when I sent him that years later, he just about died, because he thought it was awful.

Well, Pat, I have been listening to your Machen series, so I think your shows were something to the effect like, okay, Biblicism, Dispensationalism, Christ-centered preaching, those kind of topics, Law Gospel.

And then you are in Machen now, going through Christianity and Liberalism, and it is such a timeless book. I mean, you just think about, oh, the liberals, they don�t want to talk about Jesus, supernatural stuff, but it would be nice to at least talk about the Bible and talk about character studies and ethical things and just gut Jesus.

And essentially, that�s what modern Christianity has done with this whole seeker-sensitive thing, don�t you think?

I absolutely think so. And getting close to home, you know, oftentimes we are told by evangelicals who believe the Bible that the Bible is not about Christ first and foremost, and not about redemption first and foremost.

And so, all of a sudden, we do character studies, and it�s all about this person or that person, and then before you know it, people don�t realize that we sound like theological liberals, and we sound like the very people Machen was going after.

And so, that�s one reason why I really like to use Machen to say, �Hey, look, deny the fact that the Bible is Christ-centered, and you should preach redemptive historically. You say you believe in inerrancy, but you sound just like the people who rejected it a hundred years ago.

You know, what�s up with that So, Machen is helpful in so many different ways, but that�s a big one for me.

Well, these days, in the midst of all the, you know, �dare to be a Daniel� character studies, and, you know, David, and Abraham, and all that, Steve Cooley, my sidekick, associate pastor here, he stumbled onto something, Pat, that I�m going to start using from now on.

The only character study that I want to be preaching regularly is about John the Baptist, �dare to be a John the Baptist because his entire ministry was pointing to Christ.

I was going to say something about bug eaters, and go big red, and corn huskers, the original corn husker.

I know.

Hey, tell us a little bit, Pat.

I think...

Go ahead.

Oh, I like that. That�s �dare to be a John the Baptist. He must increase, I must decrease.

I know.

Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. That�s super.

I like that.

I know.

What about a show on authorship? Because everybody�s talking about authorial intent all the time, which I agree with, but I usually, when discussing authorial intent, I usually capitalize �A� on �author� because, of course, God, to use the language of 2 Peter 1, these men didn�t make these things up themselves.

They were men moved from God, moved by the Holy Spirit. Obviously, God used men to write Scripture, short of the Ten Commandments, where He inscribed them Himself. What�s the rub with the whole authorial intent, focusing too much on the human author?

Is that possible? Divine author? How do we work through that?

I want to do a whole show on that. I think you and I have been reading the same books, whether it be by Craig Carter or the other one by Matthew Barrett dealing with these things, kind of calling evangelicals out, calling conservative evangelicals out for having what they would say, I think, a post-Enlightenment hermeneutic, so by that they would mean we�re emphasizing the human author just like the liberals do because they don�t believe in divine authorship, and so it ends up being a denial of the one divine author, like you�re saying, standing behind the whole thing, capital A.

And we know that the one divine author, according to Ephesians 1, and everything centering ultimately upon the redemptive work of Christ. Also, I guess, another good book on that would be the one on preaching.

What�s it called? You just recommended it, I think, to your preaching class.

Him We Proclaim. Him We Proclaim.

Him We Proclaim. Yeah, same thing. And he�s calling out respectable Bible scholars, whether it be Walter Kaiser or someone else who are interpreting the Bible, the hermeneutic, as one that�s more like naturalism.

I�m thankful for people writing about that today, helping us say, �Hold on a second. We wouldn�t have the hermeneutic that Christians have had even pre-Enlightenment where they still believed in supernatural things.

Would you say at a big level, Pat, it also includes a discussion about, does the Old Testament, do we interpret the Old Testament in light of the New, or the New Testament in light of the Old? What do you mean by that?

Well, by that, how could we interpret the New without the Old? That�s kind of the obvious one. We have one divine author who�s eternal before the foundation of the world, which is pre-Genesis 1, unfolding, obviously.

Well, it�s interesting to me, Pat, when we think about even covenants and the New Covenant. I mean, we�ve got this idea of Old Testament, New Testament, when maybe we should be thinking about different covenants, including the New Covenant, and of course, the New Covenant we know about was talked about even back in the Old Covenant scriptures, Old Testament in Jeremiah 31.

So, I think what happened for me was my, I�m not going to say the word �journey� because that�s like, you can�t say that on the podcast. By the way, just a heads up, big brother advice, never say �journey.

Never say �broken, wounded any of that stuff.

But if you�re going to plant a church or change the name of your church, either include �journey or �creek or �timber or something like that, you�re sure to be successful.

Pat, there�s a church locally here called Xcel, and I always think to myself, but what if I�m not doing so well spiritually? Would I fit in there? I mean, everybody�s excelling. Maybe that�s just the goal.

It�s for accountants. It�s the Xcel spreadsheet church.

The only way I would buy into that church is if it was in a city called Xcel, right? So if it was the Journey, Minnesota, you know, city of, then maybe I could do it. Let�s talk a little bit more about what�s going on in your life in terms of Omaha Bible Church and things like that.

How people can go to omahabiblechurch .org and listen to Pat�s sermons, as I call him �Uncle Pat because that�s what my kids would call him. What�s going on there in the pulpit? As I have been drawn toward a Christ-centered preaching, I know you have as well.

To me, that�s like the big thing. If anything happened in my life that�s revolutionized my thinking, that�s probably the big one, knowing that Christ must be proclaimed, 1 Corinthians 2, Colossians 1, Luke 24.

How have the people at Omaha Bible Church responded to this, I don�t know, theological paradigm shift with the emphasis on Christ proclaimed every week?

They keep coming, and we have four Sunday morning services.

I�m going to interrupt you just for a second. I saw the other day, somehow, the different things that you have to eat and drink to preach four sermons, with Propel and Red Bulls and protein bars and sashimi.

That�s pretty impressive.

I think somehow, in God�s providence, we ride bicycles so we can be in shape and understand how to fuel for long rides, because that�s kind of how Sunday mornings are.

So, four services, and people are coming, and are they enjoying a Christ-centered preaching model?

Well, some have, and we want our Bibles back, we want our Old Testaments back without any reference to Christ. The thing about that is I haven�t really been preaching from the Old Testament. They are seeing that it�s�someone actually said to me just last week, our church said that Pat has stopped preaching only the gospel and is now doing allegory.

What is that about? It�s not about allegory. It�s not what it says about the church they�ve gone to. They�re going to leave Omaha Bible Church because they don�t like Christ-centered preaching. So, I�m not sure what it says about their new pastor.

Well, Pat, it�s interesting to me.

But I digress.

Yeah.

Well, it�s interesting to me when I think, okay, who doesn�t want to hear about Jesus? And what you�re not doing, and what I�m not doing, and we do not even want people to go down this other path, is we�re not trying to do this, you know, Tim Keller�s preaching through Judges and, you know, 20-some chapters in Judges, and every sermon is basically flattened out, and we don�t really get to learn the historical significance of the particular text in Judges 1.

Everything immediately is off to Jesus. We�re not proposing that, are we?

Absolutely not, and that�s why I used that word without explaining it, but I think it�s a helpful word, and that word is �organic. So, it�s natural. How are things unfolding? How is the drama of redemptive history moving forward?

Because it certainly is, so let�s see how it�s happening naturally. And maybe another comment about that, Mike, is sometimes I think, since we believe every single jot and tittle is there on purpose by divine design, we make the error in thinking that we have to, you know, in a long historical narrative, somehow dissect it and do one word.

A week.

Well, if you�re doing that and not reading the whole, and as it�s intended, maybe you will go into some kind of weird allegory, but if you�re reading, let�s say, letters or books as they�re meant to be, you�re here to see Christ because you�re looking at the big picture, not the minutiae.

But again, not that the minutiae isn�t important, it is, but big picture, it�s a lot easier to step back and say, �How does this relate to moving divine author

Pat, I was reading the News at Kiel book the other day, Unfolding Drama, Unfolding Mystery, something, you know, biblical theology, and I thought he had a good point there. He said you should read the Bible both fast and slow, so fast and slowly, and so slowly.

There�s some of the minutiae that you want to pick up and you�re diving into the text and syntax and other things, and then you also want to read the Bible in a fast way, and that is to say, sweeping themes and understanding that, and I thought that was a good way to do it.

We should read both fast and slow, and I like that style.

I really like that. That�s a great point. I have a book right in front of me. I think I�m only about 30 pages in, so you pick it up again and keep moving.

The weird thing about it is, Pat, of course we have similar DNA and background and everything else and even theological background, and we basically are in the same place and we read the same things. I mean, I�m reading Simply Trinity, I�m reading Zach Keel, I�m reading the one about Crawford Gribbon about Doug Wilson and the Northwest and surveillance, whatever, post-meal reconstruction stuff.

I bet you read the exact same books.

And the great thing about that too is I saw you had something come out the other day from Gospel Project. Is that what it�s called?

Oh, American Gospel.

American Gospel, that�s right. And you�re teaching on law and gospel, and so I recommended it, having never heard it, because I just know, not because we�re related, but because we have similar theological convictions, that it would be good.

Me too.

Actually, Brandon Kimber, who directed and produced the American Gospel shows, and now he�s got this channel, I sent him the raw footage from Ben Mercedes filming me, and with all his cutting and splicing and big quotes up on the screen by Casper Livianus and other things, and Canons of Dort, really, he is a great producer.

So I think the data is important, the topic is important, and so it turned out pretty.

Well.

And then I listened to your Law Gospel podcast on the Pactum, and I thought, perfect, we�re still lining up. I mean, that would be a tragic day for the Sons of Thunder if they were disagreeing on huge theological points.

I�m super grateful that you�re speaking out on that topic. It�s such a big one. It�s an important one, and misunderstood, and I�m so happy it made my day when I saw.

That.

Well, that he asked me to do it, I was happy, so, praise the Lord.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

Okay, two more things before we have to sign off. Number one, let�s talk about the conference that you�re having in October at Omaha Bible Church, and then let�s talk about Israel. So what can you tell us about the conference in October?

Anything?

Okay, so we�re going to have a conference, we do a fall conference every year at the.

Church.

It used to be kind of a big deal, and then the internet happened, and now you can listen to the best conference speakers anywhere on the planet. So it�s mainly for our church people. We draw some people from outside of the church.

But it�s a staple, we always enjoy our fall conference, and this year you�re going to be one of the speakers, and John Fesco is going to be one of the speakers, and so is Matthew Barrett. And so Matthew wants it to be on Trinity for obvious reasons, he has a new book on the.

Topic.

So we�ll see how it goes. You and I are going to talk offline. My guess is it�s going to be focusing on the Trinity, focusing on the covenant of redemption, which is Trinitarian, and those things theologically, those things as they would relate to life in the church, life in preaching, life in Bible study.

So we�re looking forward to that. It�s October 8th, 9th, and 10th sometime, and my kids are dying to see.

And I can�t wait to draft you. We�ve talked about this off-air, too. From 55 to now 60, my cycling, endurance, recovery, it�s like I�m in a different body. And so enjoy it while it lasts, bub, you�ve got a few more good years left.

Nine years behind in trailing, so I�ll see my future, I�ll just see you.

In the old days, you know, sometimes people, they didn�t know who was older. And now when you look at a picture of Pat and Mike, it�s very obvious who the older.

Brother is.

I�m not so sure about that.

So that�s in October. That�s going to be thrilling. I mean, I guess, Pat, for you and for me, we just, we aren�t going to be batting cleanup, but maybe we�ll just do the pastoral side of things or something.

I mean, can you imagine Matthew Barrett and J .V. Fesco, two very gifted men. So it�s going to be a good conference, I think.

I think it will be. But, you know, I just said, and you�re showing humility, but I said to someone just yesterday, obviously we have two academicians coming, but then my brother Mike�s coming, and he�s the preacher.

He�s the one who is able to preach and proclaim and pastor. So you have your giftedness, they have their giftedness, and we�ll have a great time. Both are friends, you know, both of them, and we�ll have a great time together.

So looking forward to it.

That will be excellent. And then now the last topic with Pastor Pat Ebendroth, omahabibletrush .org, and thepactum .org, the new podcast, Israel 2022. We are planning to go February 23rd next year, but do you think we�re going to make it with all these COVID passports and all that stuff, and Israel, I think, is now requiring.

Them.

What�s the scoop with all this?

I�m pretty optimistic that we�re going to be able to go, but we�ll see. I mean, if it�s Israel won�t let us in unless it�s safe, but they�re definitely all about safety. We�ll see how it goes. We have an informational meeting coming up, not this Sunday, but the next at our church.

I know you�ve had one at your church. It�s kind of hard to say, but we always have a great time. We�re out of coffee beans at our house, strangely enough, and so I had to dig into my little Starbucks via stash, which is only for traveling, and anytime I want to think about Israel, I just pull that out and think, �Ah, this is how Israel tastes in the morning when you�re in Jerusalem.

We have via Will Travel. I hope we get to go. I love going with you. We have such a fun time and great going with people. I tell people we won�t let the tour get in the way of our education, the lines, even if it means bribing someone.

That�s true, and maybe, you know, people will learn whether to call it the holy land.

Or not.

How holy is the holy land?

I don�t think anybody�s ever gone with us and had a bad experience. Those people who didn�t like it, you were making too many jokes, but I think by the end of the trip, those grumpy people came around.

Well, you know, part of it is what you said earlier, Pat. I think we�ve probably�or most people in theological realms probably take themselves too seriously, and I know I have and probably still do. And there�s a time and place for serious Bible teaching, and both of us do that.

But then there�s other times where you think, �We�re on vacation. Let�s have a little bit of fun, and then once we get to the site and we need to teach Matthew 16, �Who do you say that I am at Caesarea Philippi, then we�ll teach that with conviction.

Absolutely. I know.

So, I�m hoping to be able to go. It�s fun to go with you, and by the way, that whole via thing, sometimes I remember waking up like in the Sea of Galilee and thinking, �I need to have a little coffee.

So, I take two vias and put them in a little 15-ounce water bottle and then shake it up and just drink it. I mean, why not? Or if you only do that for like three ounces of water, it�s like a little espresso cold.

It�s the Doppio Espresso.

I know.

But I want to make sure listeners understand, if they go to Israel with us, we do have good coffee spots, too. We will take you to Oroma and have some good coffee. We�ll tell the guide we don�t want to go to the bad food places.

We�ll go to one you�ve ever had.

Oh, I wish I was sitting there right now with you.

Awesome.

What�s that yellow sauce on the mashiko?

Amba.

Yeah, that�s right. That�s right.

Right?

It�s mango and chilies. Typically, they hide it behind the counter. You have to ask for it because it�s the special anointed sauce.

That�s right. That�s right.

Oh, man.

I think, you know, usually you pull more people than I do, but I think I�ve got 15 signed up, at least, who want to go, and I think maybe with eight with deposits or something, so we�ll have to see, but it would be nice to have 40 people on the bus, wouldn�t it?

It would be.

Josiah is going to go, Lord willing, so trying to get the whole family there one at a time. Any of your family members thinking about going, Mike?

I think Kim would like to go this year because it�s been quite a few years since Kim has.

Been.

I think when we first were married in �89 was the last time she�s been to Israel, and so I know she wants to go, but her idea of going to Israel is, �Let�s only be on the bus like half the time, and the other half the time, let�s go rent mountain bikes and go off on our own.

I said, �Well, that�s kind of hard to do when you�re leading a tour.

It is. It is.

Although, tell her that the guy that we�ve interviewed and talked to actually is a bit of a cyclist, not probably as into it as we are, but he actually said that he�d be willing to take us out and see the sunrise.

Whoever wanted to go could go see the sunrise in Jerusalem.

See, I like that. It reminds me of a couple trips ago where you brought your little foldy, and you had it in your suitcase. I remember you getting up early when we stayed at this Dead Sea, and you�d be out riding around past the PLO.

I just wanted the Instagram moment so I could say, �I�ve ridden my bicycle on the lowest place on planet Earth.

I know.

I got home and sold that. I sold the bike when I got home. It wasn�t a big win.

All right.

Well, at least you did it, right? The other day, I was thinking about all the places in the world where I�ve ridden a bicycle, and it was kind of fun to just rehearse those. Anyway, if you want to check out Pastor Pat Sermon�s Omaha Bible Church, what do you.

In now? Are you in Luke?

Where are you?

We�re in Matthew chapter 20. We�re on our way through Matthew.

Okay. What do you got?

It�s amazing to read the gospel as if it�s about the gospel.

I heard somebody the other day, they said, �Well, you know, they divided up Jesus� garments, and, you know, they were selfish and greedy, and is there any kind of greed in your life

And I thought, �This is like a different religion.

And they accuse us of allegorizing.

I know.

I love Matthew, because it starts in chapter 1, verse 21, �Name him Jesus, because he will save us. So there you go. You have the hermeneutic of the whole book. He is a savior. He�s not the example.

It preaches itself in so many ways.

Well, have you heard I know we�re over time, but have you heard people say, �We just want more practical stuff. In other words, �We want more law.

It�s amazing to think about all the things that the Bible doesn�t say. The Bible doesn�t tell us about brushing our teeth, it doesn�t tell us about financing our home, it doesn�t tell us about higher education, it doesn�t tell us about �soul.