March 25, 2016 Show with Paul Flynn on “The Shack: Exposing Its Dangerous Heresies Before Its Movie Debut”

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Afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania and the rest of humanity who are living on the planet Earth who are listening via live-streaming. This is Chris Arns and your host of iron sharpens iron wishing you all a happy Friday and It is the 25th of March being observed by many globally as Good Friday and It is a very Exciting day for me today because for the very first time ever on iron sharpens iron We are going to have as our guest today Paul Flynn who is the president of Megiddo films?

And we're discussing a very important topic many of you may have heard the Shaq Heard about the Shaq. I should say I am NOT talking about NBA legend Shaquille O 'Neal. I'm talking about the book the Shaq.

That was published much to the delight unfortunately of millions of people including millions of professing Christians, but also much to the great dismay of those who are more theologically astute and biblically faithful and The reason why we are here to once again expose the heresies found within this book the Shaq Is that there is a movie that is going to be coming out on the Shaq and We wanted to beat them to the punch by preparing Those who may view or consider viewing this movie with the information that they should be knowledgeable of regarding the dangerous heresies that this book and story promote and And also, we're announcing Paul Flynn our guests own documentary that debuted today that discusses this book and soon to be film and exposes its dangerous heresies.

But it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time all the way from Northern Ireland Paul Flynn from Megiddo films.

Thank You Chris for having me on. It's actually the Republic of Ireland. I'm just a little bit south of the border.

Okay, and I believe. Go ahead. I'm sorry. Okay, that's why I said Northern Ireland because I knew your pastor David Silversides is in Northern Ireland. So now that's a clarification. They're very interesting and I just found out today That David Silversides a guest that I recently had on The program who's on for two hours the first hour to discuss the free or for the gospel the second hour to discuss the Antichrist from a Biblical and confessional view.

I just found out that he is indeed our guest pastor. But it's such an honor to have you on and let me introduce to you on air my co-host Reverend Buzz Taylor and hello.

Hello, how are you. Just great things. Looking forward to talking with you and learning more about this very important subject. Yes, and I.

I'm excited to talk about it because it's. It's scary how much of an influence and ties on it has on the church.

Yeah, before we even go into the subject of the shack. Let's hear something about you personally. Briefly, perhaps we can have you back on in the future to discuss your testimony for the entire time. But if you could just give our listeners a little background of who you are and about Megiddo films.

Sure and Briefly anyway, I would say seven years ago. I was. I came from a rock and metal background. I was Like just a very similar to somebody's kind of the person I was. I would have been out four or five nights a week Drinking and partying before the Lord saved me.

I've been The Lord just worked in me start Got me to study and I was very hard for the gospel. I grew up in the south of Ireland from Dublin, which is the capital of Ireland and Around that time my life changed completely and I've already been involved in a lot of internet based Promotion work probably more mostly due to the bands.

And then as time went on I still had these websites I still had these promotional things kind of going on so I kind of they became Christian at the beginning was kind of more political than Christian and then I kind of gradually overhauled them and Gradually became what it is today.

Megiddo films started in November 2010 and I don't know. I probably put out four or five films just on the internet really and.

And.

Radio then started in May of 2011. The Lord's just really blessed me through it. He taught me to grow study really important topics bring amazing people into my life in the body of Christ who've been an incredible blessing to me and I really feel like you know, it's a it's looking back.

It's been amazing, but it's hard to believe it's been nearly five years.

That's.

My testimony in a nutshell, but like you said that you probably have to get me back on the show.

You can't see where I go into my testimony in more detail. Yes, and I have at least for a year. Been hounded by a dear friend and sister in Christ who actually led me to Christ 30 years ago. I was big.

I was hounded for at least a year now to get you as a guest On the program. She had discovered you on the internet and has been very blessed by your Megiddo radio. And a shout out to Susan Hopkins in Newville, Pennsylvania.

Thank you so much for this hearty recommendation of Paul Flynn. So give us some background about this book the shack that has had a lot of people singing its praises from all different walks of life and even much to my surprise.

A.

Conservative Missouri Synod Lutheran minister that I know who seems to be Quite a wise and discerning man. I was shocked out of my shoes. About. I don't know seven eight years ago to learn that he was promoting this book.

But if you could let our listeners know about the shack who wrote it something about the author, etc.

I remember when I when I started looking at this, I Was one of those topics I didn't really want to look at because I think there's probably two camps of people in the church at the moment. People who love the book are people who probably wonder why the other group likes it in the first place and The story with the shack and it really is.

I mean in one aspect It's an incredible story. What has happened to it from a publishing point of view. It was a book written by William Paul Young who's a Canadian author but didn't grow up in Canada and We could probably go into the author's background a little bit more in detail.

But I'll just give you a little bit of background of the book only. He wrote the book for his children initially kind of a children's present and He put in the binder gave it friends and family. Eventually kind of took off and a lot of people loved the book now.

The book has been revised since that original book.

The.

Publishing company, which was basically two friends of William Paul Young. Basically, you know, it's been called a self-published book, but because it went from a ring binder.

To.

Selling I don't know how many cop about a hundred thousand copies in very few months without any advertising. So from that point of view, it's an incredible story. Sadly, it is not an incredible story of gospel truth.

It's not like Pilgrim's Progress or anything You know, you know compared to that sadly by Eugene Peterson, but The thing is it is like I've gone over every interviewer can find and if I'm finding more and more William Paul Young talking about how the book started and and it's part of me just going Wow Publishing point of view marketed it just took off because windblown media Which was a company started by Brad Cummings and Wayne Jacobson who are former pastors friends of his they started this publishing company in order to get the shack out and It's just it was like 11 weeks in New York Times bestseller number one and It's and I think it's really and I think the biggest We can look at the shack and I think I hope that people will see that it's more it's more of a symptom.

Rather than all the shacks for the other problems the Shack's popularity is really a symptom of the problem of the church.

Yeah, it seems quite bizarre to me having heard about the Theme of the book that it started as a children's book for his own children and involves a serial killer. That seems to be very very odd that that would you be cozying up with the kids with milk and cookies and.

And.

And basically you're reading them into the lullaby land of sleep with a book about a serial killer. But maybe they were older children. I don't know.

But I'm trying to remember I think.

From what I understand. Oh and by the way, let me announce Officially that today was the debut of Paul Flynn's own documentary on This very topic the Shack exposing its dangerous heresies. What is the exact title of your documentary?

The title is the Shack. It's dangerous theology and error. Okay, and.

That has debuted today. So I Hope that all of you after our program is over I begin viewing that yes. And so I understand that this book Really Militates against scripture and in very serious and dangerous ways regarding the Godhead namely the Trinity and regarding the gospel of Jesus Christ if you could start with.

Basically an itemized list of all the reasons why you're even alarmed about this. And and perhaps we could preface This by saying that I have heard people in your documentary that you've quoted Those that were approving of and applauding and celebrating this book.

That we shouldn't be getting in an uproar over a story. It wasn't meant to be a theological treatise. It wasn't meant to be some kind of a seminary textbook or even a primer on Christian doctrine for new believers or anything like this this was being couched or being toted as a a story with some Theological Truth according to the author anyway behind it, but if you could comment on all of that.

Sure. Sure. I mean that claim really is the one thing that probably drove me to do the documentary in the first place. I kept Seem to bump into people who had read the book and tell what's what's wrong with it really and I was like saying well, how long have you got and I Mean I I I don't think I've ever read something where I've found so many things wrong with it.

I know sometimes when people want to critique a book and you like say, okay, this is good in it. You know, okay, I might have gotten relationship maybe the idea of it, but did it really. I don't know if it's gotten anything, right?

Anyway, I digress the whole claim that it's not a Theology. I Mean the thing is with them when Paul young he contradicts himself. There's a if people want to really study this further. There's a book called the shack revisited.

It's written by C. Baxter Kruger a C. Baxter Kruger is now a friend of William Paul young and William Paul young Recommends this book. He says on the cover if you want to understand better The perspectives of theology that frame the shack this book is for you.

So basically if you want to sit systematic theology if you want the theology behind the shack in That's way more much more explicit than the shack is C. Baxter Kruger's book is Very, you know, he's much clearer than the shack is.

Sometimes the shack is a bit obscure, but he says in the forward, right? He says at one point on one page The shack was never intended to be a systematic theology or another book of pragmatic proof text.

But then on the same page our graph later. Don't misunderstand me. The shack is theology. Theology wrapped in a story so the thing with young he wants, you know cake and eat us. He wants it is a theology.

It's not a theology when he's invited to a church to speak. Oh, it's a theology with a wonderful view of God when he meets a critic. Oh, it's fiction. So I mean, you know, that is a kind of a cop-out now.

And I I can kind of understand to on a human level. Why like William Paul Young has gone through an incredible amount of pain in his life. It's kind of why he's kind of come to this Theology in the first place.

I mean when he was raised, he was raised in the Netherlands, New Guinea. He was kind of in a tribal area and he was abused from a child like the age of four onwards the shack is like a metaphor packed into a weekend of how William Paul Young dealt.

Oh, he dealt with it and you know using a god of his Own imagination and Yeah, the thing is what really annoys me at times is Theology like William Paul Young is aggressively promoting his theology. He's going to churches.

He's going and speaking in conferences. He's just he released a few months ago a new book called Eve challenging the creation story. And he's and he talks about in the promotion he's talked about the gaps so William Paul Young's not just stopping there.

He wrote Crossroads after the shack and he wrote Eve which came out a few months ago and the shack is still selling. Every time I look at the figures for the shack it is jumped pretty dramatically. I read an article few months ago, I think was from two years ago and it said the shack had sold 18 million copies and That promo video for 25 million copies, so the shack is still selling I know people aren't really talking about it as much but it is still selling and Tim McGraw I was watching there.

It's in the film actually. But it the documentary I did it from the start of it. Tim McGraw talking about it. It's filming right now when it can be released is let me ask a question. I'm on this.

Are you telling me then that that William Paul Young actually does believe this theology, even though he's calling it a story.

Universalism in a bit, but I remember like, okay. I was like, okay. He definitely believes what he believes about the Trinity and he repeats it in other interviews as well. He was interviewed a couple years ago and really pushed on it by Matt Flick and his radio show and.

Really kind of he backed down one or two things, but he basically affirmed the central idea.

And.

The shack revisited is just. If there's no ambiguity with it, it is. He is a universalist and.

And.

But he's a very clever and how he tries to get around it. He says he did like he did a video with a man by the name of Tony crit. I think that's how you pronounce his name. And a little short kind of a podcast videocast and.

On the little video he did he gave it. I don't know about six definitions of universalism. And he said that's what a universalist is. I'm a universalist now at the end. He gave another definition of what a universalist was that everybody is.

Definitely reconciled to God. Now. William Paul Young. William Paul Young was raised in a missionary home. He knows Christian Language. The problem is he redefined everything. So he's a viewer. The gospel is very hard to unpack.

You know to the point where you have to kind of realize what he means Reconciliation. Like if for example, if he's given a gospel to you and you're not reconciled to God, but you've still been forgiven.

You've still been loved and accepted. And the quote see Baxter Kruger. You always have and you always will.

Okay, so so you are saying he really does believe what he's teaching then. Oh, yeah, and you know. Yeah, I need believe it for some time. Well, even just getting back to the idea of writing fiction. Yeah, like Walter Martin told us years ago.

There was another fellow who wrote a Novel and of course it became ultimately is the Book of Mormon. So, I mean fiction can be used for very dangerous means, you know in very dangerous. Yeah, if you read Kingdom of the Cults he points out that it was.

It was a novel that was written by somebody else that. Was you taking you saying Joseph Smith plagiarized the Book of Mormon? I'm. I'm not exactly quoting but I am quoting. Yes Walter Martin.

Oh, I didn't even I don't even know that.

The guy's name was Spalding and I don't remember the name of the novel, but there was a copy that Still existed that was found later after the Book of Mormon. Huh? That's news to me. I didn't know so I mean fiction, you know, we have to be careful, you know.

Humor fiction things like that. They can be really effective communication tools. But as we're seeing right now, they can also be very damaging. Oh.

I agree. I may you may have said this so excuse me for having you repeat it. But when did the book first get released?

2007.

2007 that's probably what right when I did my first interview on it or not far after that. By the way, I want to let our listeners know I am Conducting this program today in honor of two Very dear friends who are now in glory for eternity with Christ both of them who Went home to Christ last year 2015.

Two men that I interviewed on this very topic about 2007 2008 I would have to look up the exact date, but Al Stein pastor of neighborhood assembly in Belmore Long Island, New York and Ken Silva Founder of a prizing ministries.

I interviewed them both on the shack. They were both had read it a number of times critically and gave their Opinions on how dangerous it was and exposing the heresies contained in it. They did a great job.

And if anybody wants an mp3 of that interview you can email me at Chris Ornson at gmail .com Chris Ornson at gmail .com and I'll get you an mp3 of that interview. But I'm doing this program in honor of these two brethren that went home to be with Christ last year.

Chris you're not telling us that it's dangerous to do an interview with you on the subject. I hope.

No, I'm not not trying to insinuate that but. So in Paul Young's background Denominationally or his real his religious Moorings, where did where did he where is he coming from with this? I know I understand that you just mentioned universalism.

But anything else you can mention?

Well, I recently Movies I couldn't really fit in I put a small bit in the film James B. DeYoung wrote a book a couple years ago called burning down the shack now I haven't really gone through it properly and it was a bit more of a footnote in the movie, but James DeYoung Says that he knew William Paul Young For quite a number of years and he started a forum kind of a Christian think-tank with them which called m3 forum now.

He says in the book in the introduction He says Paul Young and his family never attended my church, but he did his own church, which is reflected in the anti Institutional statements found in the shack so it doesn't seem like he was really and would have been a home church or something like that.

It seems like it was very maybe like maybe you know, what's that a term a bit of a maverick? Always trying to think outside the box. Probably From a human standpoint at least based on you know, he's upbringing and the horrendous things he went through but You know from a scriptural point of view didn't know the Lord and still doesn't.

So Let's go through some of the major reasons why People should be shunning this book and warning others not to read it unless they're of course Spiritually and theologically mature enough to read it for the very reasons that you are exposing it today so that they can speak with Knowledge when they openly refute it and condemn it, but what are some of these major heresies?

Well.

At first I remember. It was no intention to do a film on it. But I remember reading it and I just wrote down every I was like, you know. Highlighted everywhere with a little problem and I think maybe I highlighted the whole book but the thing like for example Into my soul of scriptura, I believe with The start of the book McKenzie Allen Phillips who's the main character in the book?

Mac he's referred to in the book.

That's kind of ironic that he picked the name of a famous actress McKenzie Phillips. One day at a time a sitcom here in America. Oh, yeah, she was McKenzie Phillips. In fact, she was. Is if she's still living?

She's the daughter of Someone from the mamas and the papas I believe. But she was an actress and she starred in one day at a time as one of the the teenage daughters On that sitcom, but that's her name McKenzie Phillips.

Wow, but anyway, sorry for any interruption.

Okay. Just to give a rundown of the book for maybe ministers who don't know what the book is about in the book Mac was a father of five he goes in a boating trip and There's an accident. He's fun almost drowns.

Mac saves his son's life, but in the keys daughter behind. Maybe his daughter is abducted by a serial killer and all the police find the FBI. It's a very Honest like if you're a father. Especially if you've got a daughter or anything like that.

Like I was reading I was going I know this is heresy, but I find it's really emotional to read it was like for those few chapters at least and Like I can see how people get really gripped into us. So I can I can kind of sympathize in that point of view.

Anyway, he only finds all missy. He's missing daughter is a bloody dress in the shack so the shack that's what the whole book is about is that it's a picture of a metaphor and William Paul Young even admits that The shack is a metaphor.

It's him really he says Little that and several interpret your original question. It was exposing the major heresies that you found. Yes in the process of a couple years later after missy is abducted and murdered and He's dealing with all this, you know, kind of why God why does this happen and the professing church is dealing with us now.

He received a letter Papa's the name For God in this book and got the father. Which comes from nanny's wife use of the term. She always referred to him as Papa and it says in the letter Mackenzie. It's been a while.

I've missed you. I'll be at the shack next weekend if you want to get together Papa so Straightaway you have this Idea that well, God is the author country that God is going to start leaving notes now.

Mac doesn't know if it's from God or not.

Then.

Almost every turn is a kind of questioning of the authority of the Bible and it starts off quite subtly. You know relatively speaking at first and then grows and grows goes on. In the book in page 65 and 66 Mac talks about a seminary background.

It says in seminary. He had been taught that God has been completely completely stopped any Covert communication with moderns preferring to have them only listen to and follow sacred scripture. Properly interpreted, of course God's voice had been reduced to paper and even that paper had to be moderated and deciphered By the proper authorities and intellects and then you know kind of a throwaway catchphrase that's used a lot in the church nowadays.

Nobody wanted God in a box. Just in a book so straightaway. It's um the meaning full of scriptura and One of the first ones that and that's why I went through it first. If you if you're any way we can solve a scriptura all these are the problems arise after that.

So and what else and Trinity this fall season the Trinity what I Wouldn't hardly always not a complete modalist just explain modalism is our Sabellianism is a second century heresy where? God is not the God has not three distinct person father son Holy Spirit, but rather He's really a manifest a one time.

He's the father another time. He's a son of a semi it denies the Trinity in a couple of different ways for example a few things in front of me here it He believes that God the Father Was crucified the father is presented with scars in his array of program of maths like years ago and he was asked about this and he admitted us one of the few things he admitted and on the interview.

Also, this blasphemous Representation were told when we use similitude. There is a time when we can use similitudes to teach from the Bible. She's example of John Bunyan. John Bunyan used similitudes of the Christian walk and difficulties and You know the wicked gaze and all these kind of things.

They were using scriptural analogies things are already in the scripture and then it was based on scripture. So but he was making similitudes based off of the Christian walk. But not similitudes of God the Father God the Son of God the Holy Spirit.

Because in Deuteronomy 4 verses 12 to 16 that is forbidden. On also the second commandment as well. We are never to make any similitude of the Godhead because our imaginations are corrupt. We are greatest thieves of the filthy rags we can never nothing we can do can never be can ever.

Reflect who God truly is is also the feminism in the book it rejects Hierarchy in within the Trinity and also within you know roles and rejects mother kind of our husband wife roles. It rejects that and kind of demeans us and makes it sound like well, it will be better if women ever sees about the cross at one point and this is very much reflective of.

Over William Paul Young's book see Baxter Kruger writes the kind of companion work. I would call it Basically makes it very clear that the wrath that was poured out upon God the Son. Spoken about it in Isaiah 53 verse 10, you know He doesn't refer to it.

But that wrath is not God of all the pouring out a draft on God the Son to satisfy justice. But according to Baxter Kruger endorsed by William Paul Young that is our wrath poured upon God the Son so this heresies about Christ on the cross completely different understanding of the atonement.

There's universalistic gospel. Everyone's sins have been paid for. Everyone's now not everybody's not in a relationship and that's because he uses orthodox terms. He knows how to use orthodox terms, you know to talk about how we went out a bit later what he means by hell, he wants to sound as orthodox as possible to everybody and.

So it teaches universalism and then I deal with all these in the film and and then at the very end I Attracted because the way I wanted to present this film with this I'm broken-hearted for the people 20 25 million or so people who have read the book.

Maybe there's more people to share it around. You know, if you love this book and you love the God of the shack, can you really be confident about your salvation? You know, there's the Jesus of the shack safe.

In fact, we're going to be going.

That's a good point for us to take a break right now. If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own our email address is chris arnzen at gmail .com. Chris arnzen at gmail .com. Please give us your first name.

Your city and state of residence in your country of residence if you live outside of the USA and. Please only remain anonymous. If it's about a personal and private matter, perhaps you want to Mention that your pastor is endorsing the shack or something.

We would prefer that you remain anonymous if it's something like that that you want to discuss. But we would love to hear from you with your questions. Whether you agree with our guest. Whether you radically disagree with him.

Perhaps you love the shack and you want to defend it. Email address again is chris arnzen at gmail .com. Chris arnzen at gmail .com. Don't go away. We'll be right back with Paul Flynn and the discussion of the shack.

Exposing its dangerous heresies.

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Welcome back. This is Chris Sarnes and your host of iron sharpens iron. Our guest today is Paul Flynn the president of Megiddo films. We are discussing the book. The shack which came out in 2007 is a really very strong selling book after all these years still and There are plans in the works for this to become a major motion picture due to its popularity.

Our guest is exposing the heresies found in this book that our audience should be alarmed about And informed about before this film even comes out. So you can share the mp3 of this interview and also You can share with them the documentary that our guest Paul Flynn.

Paul Flynn has created Exposing the dangers of the shack and we'll be giving you the all the contact information that you need throughout this broadcast. To get in touch with our guest Paul Flynn and how you can view that Documentary, by the way, I just wanted to let our listeners know.

My co-host Reverend Buzz Taylor brought up the fact that there is a theory that The Book of Mormon was plagiarized from a novel that was unpublished by a Individual by the name of Spalding if you go to the Utah Lighthouse ministry website utlm .org.

That is a ministry founded by a direct descendant of Brigham Brigham Young named Sandra Tanner her husband her late husband Gerald and Sandra founded that ministry together. They are born-again believers in Christ and have a very powerful ministry to the Mormons they Doubt the authenticity of that claim.

They're just trying to be honest about the origins of the Book of Mormon. They had rejected as heresy and being false, of course, but they do not believe that it was a plagiarized version of Spalding's Novel, but you could read more about that at utlm .org.

Utlm .org. I just wanted to. Would you know if there's been any updatings of the kingdom of the cults? I don't. I don't my copies. Like, you know.

Ancient right. Yeah, I in fact, I know that was revised, but I don't I haven't received a revised edition of it. But anyway we were talking about the fact that the the book the shack Paul Young the author is.

What you refer to as a semi modalist. For those of our listeners who are a bit confused about that term. If you've ever heard of the oneness Pentecostals. They are classic Modern-day mold modalists. Who deny the the doctrine of the Trinity one of the pillars of the Christian faith that God is eternally?

Three persons co-equal co-eternal persons and yet one God. And this is a form of the heresy of modalism that our guests believes Paul Young has embraced. And the gospel itself is being challenged in this book.