March 25, 2016 Show with Paul Flynn on “The Shack: Exposing Its Dangerous Heresies Before Its Movie Debut”

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Now here's our host Chris Arnton Good Afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania and the rest of humanity who are living on the planet

Earth who are listening via live -streaming This is Chris Arntz and your host of iron sharpens iron wishing you all a happy Friday and it is the 25th of March being observed by many globally as Good Friday and It is a very

Exciting day for me today because for the very first time ever on iron sharpens iron

We are going to have as our guest today Paul Flynn who is the president of Megiddo films?

And we're discussing a very important topic many of you may have heard the shack

Heard about the shack. I should say I am NOT talking about NBA legend

Shaquille O 'Neal I'm talking about the book the shack That was published much to the delight unfortunately of millions of people including millions of professing

Christians but also much to the great dismay of those who are more theologically astute and biblically faithful and The reason why we are here to once again expose the heresies found within this book the shack

Is that there is a movie that is going to be coming out on the shack?

And we wanted to beat them to the punch by preparing Those who may view or consider viewing this movie with the information that they should be knowledgeable of regarding the dangerous heresies that this book and story promote and And also, we're announcing

Paul Flynn our guests own documentary that debuted today that discusses this book and soon -to -be film and Exposes its dangerous heresies

But it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time all the way from Northern Ireland Paul Flynn from Megiddo films

Thank you Chris for having me on it's actually the Republic of Ireland. I'm just a little bit south of the border. Oh, okay, and I believe

Go ahead. I'm sorry Okay, that's why

I said Northern Ireland because I knew your pastor David silversides is in Northern Ireland So now that's a clarification.

They're very interesting and I just found out today That David silversides a guest that I recently had on the program who's on for two hours the first hour to discuss the free offer of the gospel the second hour to discuss the

Antichrist from a Biblical and confessional view. I just found out that he is indeed our guest pastor

But it's such an honor to have you on and let me introduce to you on air my co -host

Reverend Buzz Taylor and hello Hello, how are you? Just great.

Thanks looking forward to talking with you and learning more about this very important subject. Yes I'm excited to talk about it because it's it's scary how much of an influence it has on it hasn't a church

Yeah, before we even go into the subject of the shack Let's hear something about you personally

Briefly, perhaps we can have you back on in the future to discuss your testimony for the entire time

But if you could just give our listeners a little background of who you are and about Megiddo films sure, and Briefly anyway,

I was saved seven years ago. I was I came from a rock and metal background. I was

Like just a very similar to somebody's kind of the person I was I would have been out four or five nights a week

Drinking and partying before the Lord saved me I've been The Lord just worked in me start got me to study the world for the first time and I was very hard for the gospel.

I grew up in the south of Ireland Cork it's about three hours from Dublin, which is the capital of Ireland and Around that time my life changed completely and I've already been involved in a lot of internet based

Promotion work probably more mostly due to the bands I was in at the time and then as time went on I still had these websites

I still had these promotional things kind of going on so I kind of they get they became Christian at the beginning was kind of more political than Christian and then

I kind of gradually overhauled them and Gradually became what it is today Megiddo films started in November 2010 and I don't know.

I put out four or five films just on the internet really and and Miguel radio then started in May of 2011.

The Lord's just really blessed me through it. He taught me to grow Study every important topics bring amazing people into my life in the body of Christ who've been an incredible blessing to me and I really feel like it's looking back.

It's been amazing It's hard to believe it's been nearly five years, but that's My testimony in a nutshell, but like you said it you probably have to get me back on the show

I can't see where I go into my testimony in more detail. Yes, and I have at least for a year

Been hounded by a dear friend and sister in Christ who actually led me to Christ 30 years ago

I was big I was hounded for at least a year now to get you as a guest Wow on the program she had discovered you on the internet and has been very blessed by your

Megiddo radio and a shout out to Susan Hopkins in Newville, Pennsylvania Thank you so much for this hearty recommendation of Paul Flynn So give us some background about this book

The shack that has had a lot of people singing its praises from all different walks of life and even much to my surprise a conservative

Missouri Synod Lutheran minister that I know who seems to be Quite a wise and discerning man.

I was shocked out of my shoes About I don't know seven eight years ago to learn that he was promoting this book

But if you could let our listeners know about the shack who wrote it something about the author, etc sure, and I remember when

I when I started looking at this I Who's one of those topics? I didn't really want to look at because I think there's probably two camps of people in the church at the moment

People who love the book are people who probably see right through it and probably wonder why the other group likes it in the first place and The story with the shack and it's really is

I mean in one aspect It's an incredible story what has happened to it from a publishing point of view It was a book written by William Paul Young who's a

Canadian author but didn't grow up in Canada and We could probably go into the author's background a little bit more in detail

But I'll just give you a little bit of background of the book only he wrote the book for his children initially kind of a children's present and He put in the binder gave it friends and family

Eventually kind of took off and a lot of people loved the book. Now. The book has been revised since that original book the

Publishing company, which was basically two friends of William Paul Young Basically, you know, it's been called a self -published book, but because it went from a ring binder to Selling I don't know how many cop about a hundred thousand copies in very few months without any advertising

So from that point of view, it's an incredible story. Sadly. It is not an incredible story of gospel truth

It's not like Pilgrim's Progress or anything like that You know, you know compared to that sadly by a

Eugene Peterson, but the thing is oh Like I've gone over every interviewer can find and if I'm finding more and more

William Paul Young talking about How the book started and and it's part of me just going

Wow, you know from a publishing point of view But it just Rocketed it just took off because windmill media

Which was a company started by Brad Cummings and Wayne Jacobson who are former pastors friends with him they started the publishing company in order to get the shack out and it's just it was like 11 weeks in New York Times bestseller number one and It's and I think it's really and I think the biggest but we can look at the shack and I think

People will see that it's more. It's more of a symptom rather than all the shacks calling all the problems the

Shack's Popularity is really a symptom of the problem of the church today Yeah, it seems quite bizarre to me having heard about the

Theme of the book that it started as a children's book for his own children and involves a serial killer that seems to be very very odd that that would you be cozying up with the kids with milk and cookies and and And basically you're reading them into the lullaby land of sleep with a book about a serial killer

But maybe they were older children. I don't know Well from what

I understand oh and by the way Let me announce officially that today was the debut of Paul Flynn's own documentary on This very topic the

Shack exposing its dangerous heresies What is the exact title of your documentary?

The title is the Shack. It's dangerous theology and error. Okay, and That has debuted today

So I hope that all of you after our program is over begin viewing that.

Yes And so I understand that this book

Really Militates against scripture and in very serious and dangerous ways regarding the

Godhead Namely the Trinity and regarding the gospel of Jesus Christ if you could start with Basically an itemized list of all the reasons why you're even alarmed about this

And and perhaps we could preface This by saying that I have heard people in your documentary that you've quoted

Those that were approving of and applauding and celebrating this book That we shouldn't be getting in an uproar over a story

It wasn't meant to be a theological treatise. It wasn't meant to be some kind of a seminary textbook or even a primer on Christian doctrine for new believers or anything like this this was being couched or being toted as a story with some

Theological Truth according to the author anyway behind it, but if you could comment on all of that Sure.

Sure. I mean that claim really is the one thing that probably drove me to do the documentary in the first place.

I kept Seem to bump into people who had read the book and tell what's what's wrong with it

Really and I was like saying well, how long have you got? I mean,

I I Don't think I've ever read something where I've found so many things wrong with it

I know sometimes when people want to critique a book and you like say, okay, this is good in it This was good in it, you know, okay might have gotten relationship

Maybe the idea of it, but did it really I don't know if it's gotten anything, right? Anyway, I digress the whole claim that it's not a

Theology I Mean the thing is with William Paul Young. He contradicts himself

There's a if people want to really study this further. There's a book called the shack revisited It's written by C.

Baxter Kruger a C. Baxter Kruger is now a friend of William Paul Young and William Paul Young Recommends this book.

He says on the cover if you want to understand better The perspective of theology that frame the shack this book is for you

So basically if you want this is about systematic theology If you want the theology behind the shack in that's way more much more explicit than the shack is

C. Baxter Kruger's book is very, you know, like he's much clearer than the shack is

Sometimes the shack is a bit obscure, but he says in the forward, right? He says at one point on one page

The shack was never intended to be a systematic theology or another book of pragmatic proof texts, but then on the same page

Paragraph later Don't misunderstand me. The shack is theology

Theology wrapped in a story. So the thing with Young he wants, you know cake and eat it

He wants it is a theology It's not a theology when he's invited to a church to speak

Oh at the theology with a wonderful view of God when he meets a critic. Oh, it's fiction

So, I mean, you know, that is a kind of a cop -out now And I can kind of understand to on a human level why?

like William Paul Young has gone through an incredible amount of pain in his life. It's kind of why he's kind of come to this

Theology in the first place. I mean when he was raised raised in I think it was

Netherlands New Guinea You're kind of in a tribal area and he was abused from a child I'm like the age of four onwards so and the shack is like a metaphor packed into a weekend of how

William Paul Young's dealt with his pain Like it's basically therapy how he dealt with it and you know using a god of his own

Own imagination and Yeah, the thing is what really annoys me at times is

That You know, it is it's a theology like William Paul Young is aggressively promoting his theology

He's going to churches. He's going and speaking in conferences. He's just he released a few months ago a new book called

Eve challenging the creation story And he's and he talks about in the promotion he's talked about the gaps so William Paul Young's not just stopping there

He wrote Crossroads after the shack and he wrote Eve which came out a few months ago and the shack is still selling

Every time I look at the figures for the shack it is jumped pretty dramatically. I read an article few months ago,

I think was from two years ago and it said the shack had sold 18 million copies and That promo video for the latest book 25 million copies, so the shack is still selling

I know people aren't really talking about it as much but it is still selling and Tim McGraw I was watching there.

It's in the film actually But I did the documentary I did it to the start of it Tim McGraw talking about it

It's filming right now and when it's going to be released is we know Let me ask a question

I'm in this are you telling me then that that William Paul Young actually does believe this theology, even though he's calling it a story

I mean But I remember like okay,

I was like, okay He definitely believes what he believes about the Trinity and he repeats it in other interviews as well he was interviewed a couple years ago and really pushed on it by Matt Flick and his radio show and Really kind of he backed down one or two things, but he basically affirmed the central idea

And The shack revisited is just If there's no ambiguity with it, it is he is a universalist and And He's a very clever and how he tries to get around it

He says he did like he did a video with the man, but it in the 20 crit I think that's how you pronounce his name and a little short kind of a podcast videocast and On the little video he did he gave it

I don't know about six definitions of universalism And he said that's what a universalist is. I'm universalist now at the end

He gave another definition of what a universalist was that everybody is Definitely reconciled to God Now the problem with William Paul Young William Paul Young was raised in a missionary home.

He knows Christian Language the problem is he redefined everything

So he's view of the gospel is very hard to unpack You know to the point where you have to kind of realize what he means a reconciliation

Like if for example, if he's given a gospel to you and you're not reconciled to God, but you've still been forgiven

You've still been loved and accepted See Baxter Kruger. You always have and you always will okay

So so you you are saying he really does believe what he's teaching then. Oh, yeah, and you know

Yeah, I need believe it for some time even just getting back to the idea of writing fiction Yeah, like Walter Martin told us years ago.

There was another fellow who wrote a Novel and of course it became ultimately is the

Book of Mormon So, I mean fiction can be used for very dangerous means, you know, very dangerous

Yeah, if you read Kingdom of the Cults he points out that it was it was a novel that was written by somebody else that Was are you taking you saying

Joseph Smith plagiarized the Book of Mormon? I'm I'm not exactly quoting but I am quoting.

Yes, Walter Martin. Oh, I didn't even I don't even know that The guy's name was

Spaulding and I don't remember the name of the novel but there was a copy that Still existed that was found later after the

Book of Mormon Huh? That's news to me. I didn't know so I mean fiction, you know, we have to be careful, you know

Humor fiction things like that. They can be really effective communication tools. But as we're seeing right now, they can also be very damaging.

Oh I agree. I may you may have said this so excuse me for having you repeat it But when did the book first get released?

2007 2007 that's probably what right when I did my first interview on it or not far after that By the way,

I want to let our listeners know I am Conducting this program today in honor of two

Very dear friends who are now in glory for eternity with Christ both of them who

Went home to Christ last year 2015 Two men that I interviewed on this very topic

About 2007 2008 I would have to look up the exact date, but Al Stein pastor of neighborhood assembly in Belmore Long Island, New York and Ken Silva Founder of a prizing ministries.

I interviewed them both on the shack. They were both had read it a number of times critically and gave their

Opinions on how dangerous it was and exposing the heresies contained in it They did a great job

And if anybody wants an mp3 of that interview, you can email me at Chris Ornson at gmail .com

Chris Ornson at gmail .com and I'll get you an mp3 of that interview But I'm doing this program in honor of these two brethren that went home to be with Christ last year

You're not telling us that it's dangerous to do an interview with you on the subject. I hope no,

I'm not trying to insinuate that but So in Paul Young's background

Denominationally or Israel his religious Moorings, where did where did he where is he coming from with this?

I know I understand that you just mentioned universalism, but anything else you can mention well,

I Recently it was near the end of the movie. So I couldn't really fit in I put a small bit in the film

James be the young were the book a couple years ago called burning down the shack now I haven't really gone through it properly and it was a bit more of a footnote in the movie, but he

James the young Says that he knew William Paul Young For quite a number of years and he started a forum kind of a

Christian think -tank with them. I was caught in 3 -4 now

He says in the book in the introduction He says Paul Young and his family never attended my church

But he did his own church, which is reflected in the empty Institutional statements found in the shack

So it doesn't seem like he was really it might have been a home church or something like that It seems like it was very maybe like maybe you know, what was that a term a bit of a maverick?

Always trying to think outside the box Probably I don't know from a human standpoint at least based on You know, he's upbringing and the friend of things he went through but You know from a scriptural point of view didn't know the

Lord and still doesn't so Let's go through some of the major reasons why?

People should be shunning this book and warning others not to read it unless they're of course spiritually and theologically mature enough to read it for the very reasons that you are exposing it today so that they can speak with Knowledge when they openly refute it and condemn it, but what are some of these major heresies?

well At first I remember Came with no intention to do a film on it but I remember reading it and I just wrote down and I was like, you know, just highlighted everywhere where there was a problem and I think maybe

I highlighted the whole book but the thing is like for example Into my soul of scriptura,

I believe with Near the start of the book Mackenzie Alan Phillips, who's the main character in the book?

Mac is referred to in the book. That's kind of ironic that he picked a name of a famous actress Mackenzie Phillips It was in one day at a time a sitcom here in America Oh, yeah, she was

Mackenzie Phillips, in fact, she was Is if she's still living she's the daughter of Someone from the mamas and the papas,

I believe but she was an actress and she starred in one day at a time as one of the teenage daughters

On that sitcom, but that's her name Mackenzie Phillips Wow, but anyway, sorry for any interruption

Oh, that's fine, that's fine. I'll have to look that up after the show. Okay, so in the book anyway, just to give a bit of a rundown of the book for maybe listeners who

Don't know what the book is about. In the book, Mac, who's a father of five, he goes on a boating trip and There's an accident.

His son almost drowns. Mac saves his son's life, but in the process Leaves Missy, his daughter, behind.

Missy, his daughter, is abducted by a serial killer and All the police find the

FBI. It's a very To be honest, like if you're a father Especially if you've got a daughter or anything like that Like I was reading,

I was going I know this is heresy, but I find this really emotional to read it was like for those few chapters at least and Like I can see how people get really gripped into it

So I can kind of sympathize in that point of view, but So anyway, he All they find of Missy, his missing daughter, is a bloody dress in the shack so the shack, that's what the whole book is about, is a picture, a metaphor, and William Paul Young even admits that the shack is a metaphor of Mac is him, really, he says.

He's admitted that in several interviews. Oh Sorry, I have to go back to your original question.

It was exposing the major heresies that you found. Oh, yes, yes So in the process of a couple years later after Missy is abducted and murdered and He's dealing with all this, you know, kind of why,

God, why did this happen? And I suppose a lot of people in the professing church are dealing with this. Now, he received a letter

From Papa. Papa is the name for God in this book, and God the Father Which comes from Nanny's wife's use of the term

She always referred to him as Papa, and it says in the letter, Mackenzie, it's been a while. I've missed you

I'll be at the shack next weekend if you want to get together Papa. So Straightaway you have this idea that, well,

God is the author of confusion Contradiction of 1st Corinthians 1433, that God is going to start leaving notes.

Now, Mac doesn't know if it's from God or not then Almost every turn is a kind of questioning of the authority of the

Bible and it starts off quite subtly You know, relatively speaking at first, and then grows and grows as the book goes on In the book in page 65 and 66

Mac talks about his seminary background. It says in seminary, he had been taught that God had completely stopped any

Covert communication with moderns, preferring to have them only listen to and follow sacred scripture

Properly interpreted, of course. God's voice had been reduced to paper and even that paper had to be moderated and deciphered

By the proper authorities and intellects and then, you know, kind of a throwaway catchphrase that's used a lot in the church nowadays

Nobody wanted God in a box Just in a book. So straightaway, it's um demeaning

Sola Scriptura and One of the first ones that's, and that's why I went through it first. If you, if you're any way weak in Sola Scriptura Then All these other problems arise after that.

So, um, and what else, um Trinity, this false use in the Trinity. What I William Paul Young was not a complete modalist

Just to explain, modalism is, or Sabellianism is a second century heresy where God is not just three distinct persons, but God is not three distinct persons

Father, Son, Holy Spirit, but rather He's really a manifestation at different times.

One time he's the Father, another time he's the Son But the book puts forward, and another time he's the

Holy Spirit, but the book puts forward kind of a semi -modalism What I would call it. It wouldn't satisfy a modalist, and it wouldn't, definitely wouldn't satisfy a

Trinitarian It denies the Trinity in a couple of different ways for example

Let's get a few things in front of me here. It He believes that God the

Father was crucified. In the book, God the Father is presented with scars in his wrist

He was on a radio program with Matt Flick years ago, and he was asked about this, and he admitted this.

One of the few things he admitted on the interview. Also, this blasphemous representation.

We're told When we use similitudes, there is a time when we can use similitudes to teach from the

Bible He's an example of John Bunyan. John Bunyan used similitudes of the

Christian walk and difficulties and You know, the wicked gaze and all these kind of things.

They were using Scriptural analogies, things that were already in the scripture, and then it was based on scripture

So, but he was making similitudes based off of the Christian walk

But not similitudes of God the Father, God the Son, or God the Holy Spirit Because in Deuteronomy 4, verses 12 to 16, that is forbidden

And also the second commandment as well. We are never to make any similitude of the Godhead because our imaginations are corrupt

We are greatest thieves of the filthy rags. We can never Nothing we can do can ever be can ever

Reflect who God truly is. There's also the Steminism in the book.

It rejects Hierarchy within the Trinity and also within, you know, roles.

It rejects mother -father Yeah, mother -father, kind of husband -wife roles.

It rejects that and kind of demeans us and makes it sound like, well It would be better if women ruled

Another part is heresies about the cross. At one point, and this is very much reflective of William Paul Young's Book.

C. Baxter Kruger writes the kind of companion work, I would call it Basically makes it very clear that the wrath that was poured out upon God the

Son Spoken about it in Isaiah 53 verse 10, you know He doesn't refer to it, but that wrath is not

God the Father pouring out his wrath upon God the Son to satisfy justice But according to C. Baxter Kruger, endorsed by William Paul Young, that is our wrath poured upon God the

Son So there's heresies about Christ on the cross Completely different understanding of the

Atonement There's a universalistic gospel Everyone's sins have been paid for Everyone's.

Now, everybody's not in a relationship And that's because he uses orthodox terms.

He knows how to use orthodox terms. He knows how to talk about hell And we can go into that a bit later, what he means by hell, but he he wants to sound as orthodox as possible to everybody and So it teaches universalism and Then I deal with all these in the film and and then at the very end

I try, because the way I wanted to present this film was this I'm Broken -hearted for the people, 25 million or so people who have read the book.

Maybe there's more people who have shared it around You know, if you love this book and you love the

God of the shack, can you really be confident about your salvation? You know, does the

Jesus of the shack save? In fact, we're going to be going, it's a good point for us to take a break right now

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com

chrisarnsen at gmail .com Please give us your first name, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside of the

USA Please only remain anonymous if it's about a personal and private matter.

Perhaps you want to Mention that your pastor is endorsing the shack or something

We would prefer that you remain anonymous if it's something like that that you want to discuss But we would love to hear from you with your questions, whether you agree with our guest, whether you radically disagree with him

Perhaps you love the shack and you want to defend it. Email address again is chrisarnsen at gmail .com

chrisarnsen at gmail .com Don't go away. We'll be right back with Paul Flynn and a discussion of the shack exposing its dangerous heresies

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We were made to thrive Welcome back.

This is Chris Sarnes and your host of iron sharpens iron Our guest today is Paul Flynn the president of Megiddo films.

We are discussing the book the shack which came out in 2007 is a really very strong selling book after all these years still and There are plans in the works for this to become a major motion picture to do its popularity

Our guest is exposing the heresies found in this book that our audience should be alarmed about And informed about before this film even comes out

So you can share the mp3 of this interview and also You can share with them the documentary that our guest

Paul Flynn Paul Flynn has created Exposing the dangers of the shack and we'll be giving you the all the contact information that you need throughout this broadcast

To get in touch with our guest Paul Flynn and how you can view that Documentary by the way,

I just wanted to let our listeners know My co -host Reverend buzz Taylor brought up the fact that there is a theory that The Book of Mormon that was plagiarized from a novel that was unpublished

By a Individual by the name of Spaulding if you go to the

Utah Lighthouse ministry website utlm .org

That is a ministry founded by a direct descendant of Brigham Brigham Young named

Sandra Tanner her husband her late husband Gerald And Sandra founded that ministry together.

They are born -again believers in Christ and have a very powerful ministry to the

Mormons they Doubt the authenticity of that claim

They're just trying to be honest about the origins of the Book of Mormon They had rejected as heresy and being false, of course, but they do not believe that it was a plagiarized version of Spaulding's Novel but you could read more about that at utlm .org

utlm .org I just wanted to would you know if there's been any updatings of the kingdom of the cults?

I don't I don't my copies like, you know Ancient, right? Yeah. I in fact, I know that was revised, but I don't

I haven't received the revised edition of it. But anyway we were talking about the fact that the

The book the shack Paul Young the author is What you refer to as a semi modalist for those of our listeners who are a bit confused about that term

If you've ever heard of the oneness Pentecostals They are classic modern -day mold modalists

Who deny the the doctrine of the Trinity one of the pillars of the

Christian faith that God is eternally? Three persons co -equal co -eternal persons and yet one

God and this is a form of the heresy of modalism that our guests believes

Paul Young has embraced And the gospel itself is being challenged in this book

The gospel is probably You neck -and -neck if you will on understanding the

Godhead the the gospel Those who have a false gospel are very clearly condemned in the

New Testament as not Entering into eternal life if they are spreading something

Contrary to what the Apostles have taught you see that clearly in Galatians and other places, but if you could comment on that comment further

On the Trinity or on the gospel. Well, if you want to continue on the Trinity and then move on to the gospel

Just have a few quotes in front of me just how William Paul Young is a massive problem

With with the cross for example, he he'll talk about when Christ was on the cross

God the Father just you know abandoned him and he has a real problem You know seeing

God as good and yet, you know the reference in Psalm 22

My God my God, why is that forsaken me? He wants to kind of make that He twists it.

I don't know how he kind of rationalize it, but that that God the Father and the

Holy Spirit also suffered on the cross so straight away you have this kind of Reducing of the distinctions between God the

Father that the Son and God the Holy Spirit. Yeah, there's a heresy I've got a passion ism About the father dying on the cross, but if you could

I'm sorry continue No, I mean like I like that's that's the great thing about church history is because Very very, you know, there's no new thing under the sun.

You're eating up church history books to go. Oh, here we go again Yeah, I know

Yeah It says in just get the page reference in front of me because Page 96 of the shack.

It says don't have a popper the shack opposite states Don't ever think that what my son chose to do didn't cost us dearly

Love always leaves a significant mark. She stated softly and gently we were there together

Now somebody might claim. Okay, you know The omnipresent in the sense of the

Holy Spirit, but in another place he talks about the incarnation It states in page 99 of the shack when we three spoke ourselves into Ourself into existence as the

Son of God we became fully human So saying we the three people three persons of the

Trinity now he does. I Think he might waver on this and interviews and he seems to But See Baxter Kruger doesn't in his companion work.

They have done interviews together, by the way, and they've been interviewed on different shows and Think they've done speaking to us together.

I think they've become really good friends That might have changed because there's been a few lawsuits here and there with Within the whole shack

Empire from time to time, but I don't know if you know anything about that. No Back in 2010 2011, there was a bit of a you know, the publishers

Basically, there was a bit of a controversy over who wrote the book You know, whether the people involved and it was a massive lawsuit

But five million dollars and they kept one for eight million dollars and about the counterclaim for five

And it's settled out of court and people think that it could arise again Hmm So you're saying that the the theology though behind the shack would

Involve all three persons of the Godhead becoming incarnate. Is it my getting that right? Yeah, I mean, it's like it's not very clear

At times he says yes, and at times he says no, but I think this is the problem with the whole And View, you know the kind of in the emerging church, you know,

William Paul Young wouldn't really You know identify himself with the emerging church. It's massively popular within it

Yeah, you like that that the three persons of the Trinity became incarnate and How we reconcile that's another issue

I mean God is spirits, right? So when you're trying to I mean

God the Son Became incarnate right him only right and you enter into huge problems when you

You know, if he you see at one point He backs the crew to write in his book about modalism and Randall Rouser who's a big fan of the book as well

What a book called finding God in the shack they talk about modalism and they describe it pretty accurately

And they they reject it and then another page they say my embraces the obviously the the astounding

Problem that you have if you have the father Along with the son dying on the cross is that you have

God? ceasing to exist In his entirety, but that's that's for another

That's for another interview at some other point. I know that feminism in your opinion has crept into the ideology of The author

Paul Young and that it is obvious from this book if you could explain the the feminist

Aspects of his heresies that come forth Sure, it kind of like and it's feminism affects his view of the gospel and it affects his view of men and women

He would completely reject hierarchy. He like he'll he makes the analogy sometimes you know, his wife might send him to the to the grocery shop and Tell him to get out of milk or something like that, and he they're submitting

To his wife, but there's no hierarchy there, you know, it's kind of a mutual submission kind of idea This also affects the view of the gospel because in the shacks gospel

There is no hierarchy. So there's a kind of a mutual submission between God and us so at times we're submitting to God will and he's submitting to our will and And Again, you might say how does this bear?

He does not explain it himself. He has very You know Sophisticated ways of explaining it.

It sounds wonderful To somebody who might not know the terminology and things like that and you might

Like, you know, he knows evangelical language William Paul Young knows evangelical language inside and out and he knows how to use it and he knows what we mean by it and he's very reluctant to Let everybody know what he believes and I think

I I'm trying to figure out exactly more of the backstory, but it seems like Brad Cummings and Wayne Jacobson who published the book and to help

Modify the original version of the shack to the shack we have today apparently according to James de

Young the original copy of the shack which is written by William Paul Young was much more universalistic and it was kind of modified in order that it wouldn't be as obvious but I digress that's for another their time and we reject hierarchy, which is fundamentally important because You know

We the shack talks about reconciliation in some ways it talks about repentance as well

But not in the way we think about it. It's not like fleeing from sin and reject, you know You know from your idols and turn to Christ and repentance kind of repentance of well don't try to be independent anymore and Be in relationship with God, but there's you know, there's no expectations upon your relationship with God in the same way completely rejects the whole idea of Life and you know, he says fulfilling roles is inside the court in front of me here page 140 a

Shack Jesus States Power in the hands of independent humans be they men or women those corrupt

Mac Don't you see how fulfilling roles is the opposite of relationship?

We want male and female to be counterpart. So you're saying, you know, they can't be He's making the same mistake that the feminist movement really make, you know, like, you know

We treat it just the fact that women and men have different roles in the family in the church

Therefore we think all women are You know second -class citizens or something difference doesn't mean that they are worth less than us at all that would undo the

Trinity and We have God the Father God the Son to Mr. God the Father, but God the

Son is no less than God the Father Well, I could I could see this gender blender thing going on here being used whether or not it's the intention of Paul Young by being used and abused and taken advantage of by the

Homosexual and so -called Transgender community all these kinds of things just play into the hands of that grotesque wickedness when you're talking about In the novel

Papa being God the Father appearing as a woman and all kinds of bizarre things now We know that God the

Father had no gender, but he's specifically for a reason in his own God -breathed word his inspired word refers to himself in a masculine term, so This is really

Dangerously playing fast and loose with the scriptures regarding God's identity as God the

Father is it not Yeah, they want to kind of go he she is with the whole idea

Especially the Holy Spirit like see that's occurred, right? sometimes Jesus speaks of the Holy Spirit using the pronoun he

Well the Greek word for spirit Pneuma is neuter and the Hebrew word ruach when their spirit is feminine so and it's interesting when

Kruger's writing at the end of the book. He just seems to go she she she all the way through so You know, it's all this kind of thing where you know,

God's not male or female, but God revealed himself as male It always uses male

Pronouns it always does I mean and sometimes they bring up some of the metaphors things like that But the thing is they clearly metaphors, you know being brought into God's bosom and things like that, but somehow that's implying that it's you know, male and female

I mean God is not the author confusion Amen and I wanted you to bring the reason why

I brought up the whole Gender issue in the feminist issue before we went on to the gospel

It was because you were speaking on the Godhead and it I was reminded that That was one of the problems with the

Godhead is this whole bizarre feminist twist on things that has

Has come through in the novel now the obviously as I was saying a very vital aspect is a denial of the gospel of Jesus Christ, how is this?

manifest in the book Well You have a different view of the

Atonement because William Paul Young believes that the Atonement satisfied the sins for every person now

I Just get on to the last section here. Like I in the last section in the movie. I talked about the

Shaq's universalistic gospel and Again it might confuse people because Again in an interview he

Appears to have rejected universalism, but he he's back and forth on this about universal reconciliation

But if a person to be forgiven of their sins doesn't necessarily have to be reconciled

That has to be kind of emphasized in the book Missy the daughter of Mac the main character was abducted and murdered by this ladybug killer the killer

Seaback's recruiter writes about the killer and Also, it's mentioned in the shack as well that Seaback's recruiter will put it he's not going to skip through the party gates playing with ladybugs

But it's quite clear the way they say both of them in both the shack and the companion work

That they have always been loved Accepted whether they know us or not

Now a person just say somebody like the the murderer in the novel the shack

He's according to the shack believing a lie about himself and that Helped depression or whatever is manifest himself.

He's badly twisted and He needs to be brought in the fire of God's love and of course back into relationship with God It's like What he's never

He's always been son, I think it was in the CBN interview

William Paul Young did on I Think was that interview anyway where he talks about him and his brother

He was the brother who? you know wandered and and brother with the religious kid and he brings up the parable of The The prodigal son and the self -righteous son as well and he talks about them.

He said but they were both Sons, you know, like they were, you know, he talks about himself as being lost

But always being a child of God so it It's hidden But the view is and I don't know if he still holds this view

James Beyoung wrote back in 2004 how he'd been They'd been friends with each other for many years their children went to the same school, etc

But back in 2004 William Paul Young wrote a hundred and three page article

Like I'm still trying to track it down How he embraced universal reconciliation

They've been friends and you know talking about theological issues in their M3 forum

But then he comes out with this paper hundred three -page paper talking about how he'd embraced it, but even according to James Beyoung even the angels and the devil would eventually be

You know like in the after eventually be brought into the reconciliation with God So how does it play?

It's completely different gospel the gospel being shared people is people in hurt and pain

You always see William Paul Young is always emphasizing people's pain because that's the new gospel

The gospel is we want to heal your pain not that you're a guilty wretched sinner before God He rejects full of poverty completely in order

He says if you see that you cannot live you cannot follow God in that way Basically that if you see yourself as a wretch

Describes you cannot But you know, you're just gonna be in depression But you have to see yourself as you truly are and be in relation to simply be it's kind of this whole idea of Accepting yourself.

I'm okay. You're okay. We're in a relationship with God and just relax And it's therapy.

It's theistic therapy Yeah, I mean they would take they would take the classic him just as I am and add a verse and stay that way

It's a Christianity without repentance I'm guessing from what you're saying here. Well now my biggest question that after hearing all these things

Obviously, we're talking about quite a few very serious heresies here. How do you explain the evangelical acceptance of this?

The Evangelical answer with this is how many churches are still churches

Yes, I think in fact churches are not synagogues of faith If you could pick up on that when we return from the break

And if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own we do have a couple of listeners who already have submitted questions for you

Paul, but if you would like to join them and Include questions of your own Send them to Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com whether you agree with our guest whether you vehemently disagree with him whether you're just not sure

What's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com? We look forward to hearing from you and your own questions for our guest

Paul Flynn on the shack as we attempt to expose its dangerous heresies before the debut of The envisioned or planned movie

Based on its contents and once again, that's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

We'll be right back after these messages with Paul Young. I'm sorry. I'm with Paul Young with Paul Flynn With Paul Flynn of Megiddo films

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If you just tuned us in We have for the full two hours today Paul Flynn president of Megiddo films and we are discussing not only the heresies that are contained within a best -selling very popular book called the shack, but we're also announcing the fact that the

Paul Flynn's Documentary on this very subject has debuted today and you may access it

Today and get more details on why you should be warning everybody not to Read this book and why they should not read them to the read it themselves

Unless they are an apologist of some kind and want to read it So they have firsthand knowledge of it when they are exposing its error to others

If you'd like to join us on the air our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com chrisarnson at gmail .com

before the break Reverend Buzz Taylor my co -host was puzzled by the evangelical enthusiasm and embracing this

Book the shack when it appears that there is so there's such obvious departure from scripture and such obvious heresy in it and That's where we cut you off to go to the break and we'd like you to revisit that sure

It's a massive problem has been going for quite a while. It's not something that's Come up in the last 20 years 30 years.

It's something that's been developing for a long time more and more People in my view and I think it's been borne out by the fruit of the modern church are growing up in the church

Without really knowing Christ they know the language they know the lingo

They're very active in the church. They're very busy in the church, but they've never really been regenerated the doctrine of regeneration is so vital that we

Understand it that a Person who is in Christ is a new creature That they will not live like the world

They're not perfect they will fall they will The times rebel against the

Lord, but a true Son or daughter of the King of Glory will be chastised and brought back into the way the problem is we've changed the doctrine of Regeneration Decisionalism has it's not new right by any stretch of the imagination

I was brought in brought in but people like Charles Finney was made very popular, but People being told that they are

Christians based upon a human decision now I've gone through testimony of testimony of people who are you know

Christian and LGBT? Christian and Holder this universe of the gospel and their testimony is this their mother or father or minister of whoever else at a meeting or You know how do

I become a Christian pray this prayer and Write it at the back your Bible tell Satan whenever you start doubting it

That you know that this is when you became a Christian, so you cease to trust in Christ you you trust a human decision and The problem is again a problem about the shack a new heresy that popped up what the shack has done has fed an

Appetite people are starving for this and they're starving like if there's a vacuum of biblical theology then this will fill the void and I would urge people if you're pastors or You know you're preaching the

Word of God and you feel pressure to get your message Just that little bit shorter, so the person in the front pew doesn't fall asleep

I would urge you to dig into the wellsprings of Rediscover that love of the truth be excited about Going to church not that there's a big rock band or anything like that, but excited

You know because we need to be men and women of prayer otherwise

None of this will change None of it when we when we are presented with the truth we come cold

When we do go to church we come cold Prayer meetings aren't interesting anymore.

I could start a rant here, and I'd probably go for a few hours But the thing is are we are we crying out to the

Lord? No, we're not You know sermons now sadly and I'm talking about the better part our lectures

We want to tickle you know here's what here's some Bible facts I know, but have we really prepared our hearts to hear these things

It's not like an intellectual this person's got a doctorate this person doesn't have you been regenerated and given a love for the scriptures

We need that love for the scriptures to repel any of this And that's why

I put like I view this meant to be this the film I put out not really as a

Documentary and discovering new breaking news or anything. I wanted to be a gospel track above all else

For those people who are trusting in the God of the shack now, I am NOT saying I want to be very clear

I'm not saying everybody who likes the shack is lost. I want to be very clear with But I do think you are in two categories.

You do not have the sermon if you like the shack. There's no way However, you could be you know,

I like some terrible books when I first got saved, you know So you could be an immature

Christian needs debate You know the milk of the words to figure you know, why is this wrong and things like that?

But If you love this and you're defending this and as you discover the heresies of the shack you're clinging to the shack

And you're not paying for the Word of God. You are not you should have a holy anger

The glory of the Lord is being attacked here rather than saying oh, well you've attacked my favorite book that will help me

You have an idol my friend Well, and you could also be somebody who has been a

Christian for many years, but unfortunately is in a church That is very shallow in its teaching and you may have had a stunted growth where you don't even you haven't gone beyond a certain level of Maturity and You really need to get out of that that church that you're a member of if you

I agree I agree. We can never know how much error somebody can be and I think we

I think I would urge caution as well sometimes Sometimes we can get into all that person's definitely lost and that person's definitely not okay

If you deny the gospel, you don't have a credible profession of faith and all your you know

Serial adulterer and you've never asked God for forgiveness. Nobody popular. There's But you're definitely not a

Christian, you know, like I'm a dollar Donald Trump or something, you know But if you have a credible profession of faith, we are to treat people as you know, the brothers and sisters in Christ We can't know who is within that who's truly converted and I hope we would avoid that But at the same time what

I'm urging people to do is not well I don't know if William Paul Young does this and trying to find

Look, I'm gonna make mistakes. I'll probably you know, I try to make the best job of can of this film

But my point is have you made your calling election short? You know, have you examined yourself against the first John?

You know, are you walking in light? You know, I couldn't care less if You know

Sometimes, you know Breaking news and everything on the internet at the moment is about being the first person out with the latest story

I want to know that people are saved and that people watching this truly know the

Lord and over the years of the greatest emails I've ever gotten the ones of you know brought me nearly to tears at times have been the ones where people growing up in the church and You know talk with an hour away and they said

I've never heard anything about that and they got say They turn to the Lord and they experience the joy and peace they never knew

That's all I want. I you know I'm not trying to scare people away from reading the shack The the reformers used to read everything what they had biblical.

I don't mean like read everything Yeah, nothing's off -limits, but they would read things from the point of view of You know refusing them often, you know people with the odd John Calvin quotes this person well keep reading to the next paragraph he refutes the same person so and We need to if we're studying these things if you're you know, apologize like you said earlier,

I Think we need to spend you know At least most of our time in the

Word of God before we go into these books and comparing everything with Scripture mm -hmm and and obviously a pastor who

Wants to warn his flock about the dangers of this book might want to make himself acquainted with it

But could probably just as easily do it by watching your documentary Rather than reading the book and by the way,

I have to applaud you on a job. Well done a very professional Film that you have a very professionally crafted

Film here with some very prominent modern -day heroes of the faith

Refuting the heresies that are in this book some of them whom I have even some of the heroes of the faith that is that I have had on this program and interviewed them and some of whom are my friends and Whom I have known some for for quite a long time, but I just really loved the job that you did with this

Thanks be to God and I pray that the Lord uses it mightily we do have

Listener in Cumberland County Pennsylvania BB who wants to know if there are any well -known and respected

Conservative evangelical leaders who have endorsed this book Well, obviously there are some people who are respected that shouldn't be

And You mentioned see the CBN. So I'm assuming the 700 Club and Pat Robertson have endorsed this book, correct?

Oh, yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's I think anybody outside of the

And I say so -called conservative, you know I I've really begun to learn that time because it's become the most meaningless term right and in the last especially last 40 50 years

But yeah, you know, it's it's useful for for this. I mean the most conservative. I mean when

I started doing this research it was because Kent Hovind Endorsed the book.

Now. I remember when I was saved first I used to listen to a lot of Kent Hovind and as the years went by I kind of didn't and You know,

I was like certain things about his testimonials and you know Like there were certain things about it the way he's been behaving and things like that About what kind of drifted away from them.

It's not a huge issue with them, but when he comes out and he said he's read the shack nine times and Is wonderful life -changing and recommended to people like oh, he's got a lot of sway a lot of cool shouldn't

You know and You know, I I personally think he's been going to stretch a long time

I don't think it's just because he went to prison or anything and But I did a radio show on it.

I said, okay, I'm gonna get the book. I'm gonna read it go through it I couldn't get through all the heresies.

I could just get through a little snippet. So I was like, okay, I have all these quotations and You know

Yeah, and I could see all these people You know from the outside look conservative having a discussion around the

Word of God You know can't hold on to some friends of his I'm like He's just surrounded by yes, man

Can anybody just say to him it is blasphemous to represent God as a black African African American woman?

Oh, it's blasphemous to represent God in any other way other than as revealed in his word I mean, we're not allowed to use our imagination.

That's what the second commandment is all about. So I Think you know it

Yeah, I don't know and obviously and obviously you're not specifically upset because God the

Father is betrayed as a black female it's just it's just the fact that God the

Father is being referred to in human form in any shape or form obviously

Christ was the only member of the Godhead who became incarnate and there any

Making God the Father into a human entity or appearing as a human or especially as a woman when he is referred to in the masculine and as I said before we know that God does not have a sexual gender, but he refers to himself always in the masculine for a reason and and it all has to do with a hierarchy of Authority that he has laid out in the scriptures themselves

We Have an anonymous listener who wants to know should

I leave my church? Because the church has allowed a study group to take place using the shack as its focus of attention

And And I'm assuming I'm assuming this is this anonymous person means that it's being studied

Positively as a study tool in the church. That's right. Oh my Yeah, I'm because of the state of the church nowadays,

I'm reluctant to say yes Well, I'm going as fast as you can because there's a danger to people going from church to church and saying this is a problem however

Ask yourself this, you know, is there the max of a church there? doesn't preach the gospel and I'm not just saying that they say come to Christ.

I'm Saying do they really preach the gospel? Do they talk about the atonement?

Do they call people to repentance the one of the saddest tragedies in modern church?

We treat repentance as optional Well, you don't have to repent Yeah, there's that controversy of repentance if you do not repent you shall surely perish

Yes. Yes, it's not optional, right? You know repentantly unless you shall perish is not like, you know, maybe some of you will and we won't it's treated like that right, and Because of the controversy especially in certain circles and and there's you know,

I one of the topics You know, we were might have been talking about today was Calvinism the importance of evangelism but we need to understand the that Sin and Christ.

There's a complete opposites of each other You cannot turn to Christ unless you turn from your sin, you can't otherwise you're like a

Hindu, you know I have all my idols. I just want one more You are not and you're not embracing the

Christ of the Bible the Bible is explicit We must repent and to put you on it.

Okay, so in part it just says to believe Because there are two sides of the one coin

It is something that God does it was a lot. I can't repent and you're absolutely right

It is something that God does you stop looking within yourself? You look to the

Savior who is the author finisher of our salvation. That's that's what we got to get back to Really preach the gospel

I'm not and look and when you're moving if you if the person prayerfully thinks about this I don't know the full ins and outs of what's happening in the church

Maybe it's possible to reform it. Maybe Maybe it's just a group that's not been and maybe maybe it's like a loose group.

It's not the pastor doing it or whatever I don't know But the marks of a church are this you to preach the gospel

Of the sacraments be rightly ministered and is there some level of church discipline no church gets church discipline, correct?

perfectly You know, you know, I try to you know, like no church on earth is

Perfect. Now I Do I say that because I know a lot of people, you know, a lot of churches personally where?

The first time it's all if at all possible stay in Lost if the gospel is not being preached

If the gospel is not being preached and there is a loathing of the gospel are you truly in a church of Jesus Christ anymore and as I'm a

JC Ryle you rightly put it to stay with an apostate church or a synagogue of Satan I'm kind of paraphrasing a little bit here.

Is it an act of schism? We want to stay with the body of Christ we want the labor we want to love our brethren because if we don't love the brethren folks

We cannot claim. We love Jesus Christ because One wonders if JC Ryle would be an

Anglican today then And no,

I did not mean to insult some of the truly fine Theologically reformed

Calvinistic Anglicans that do exist, but they are certainly a minority in today's world

I would be very hard -pressed to believe that a church would be preaching the true gospel if The level of discernment is low enough to use this as a study book in the church

Well, I guess one exception would be that I can think of if the popularity of this book

Was rampant in the community where this church was they might want to compare it to the teachings of Scripture and expose it

Just like we're writing it today. Yeah, I can see that being if that were one, right, right, right If it's being used me, you know, so you can have a you don't learn to know

God better or something I mean, right and and you want to be careful as well. It could be through ignorance

I don't want to just say the people put Maybe I don't know. I'm just you try to people to benefit.

Yes. Sometimes I think there's a hyper, you know Oh, look at all these heresies. Oh, he's got the shack. He's a heretic.

I just you know, I mean, we've got to be patient and like This book might be recommended by a friend of a friend of a friend of a friend and then they bring it to Bonsai and they've no clue and they open the first chapter go.

Oh, this is weird Just as much as possible. Try to give people the benefit of the doubt don't be gullible at the same time

What is the gospel not being preached there and that's probably the case right if they like the shack

You have to move and the thing is you're not leaving the church They've left you right and of course there may be circumstances where a new pastor who is biblically sound has to deal with Groups in the church and maybe even elders in the church that were already there

Who are less enlightened and less theologically sound and mature Who he is?

Taking his time really laying down the law if you will because he doesn't even have that kind of authority yet If he's a new pastor there

Any man as you said he might not even have you may not not have heard of the shack or know anything about it but but obviously you should approach your pastor and elders privately and Address these issues with them certainly and have them watch

Paul Flynn's documentary and even listen to this interview that will be available on mp3 and I Think that that would be a wise thing to do.

Don't just talk about your pastors and leaders behind their backs privately address them Confront them in love and humility

And so show them that you respect to the office I mean, you know, I know we can get very angry about this, but show them to do respect for the office

Do the right thing people all the people not may not be doing the right thing. Would you do the right thing? amen and The Before we go to our break.

I want you to Really make sure that all of the major issues that you believe have been

All the major truths of Scripture that have been violated or contradicted in this book are

Addressed here in our interview today. If you could We've discussed the gospel and if you could

If you have anything more to say about the gospel, if not move on to another issue that you think is of primary concern

Okay, sounds great and If you could if you could start before we have the break that we're going to Know I think the central thing we need to focus on is the gospel and but all of the things

I tried like there There are other issues. I mean I've dealt with Eight chapters in in the in the documentary

There were there were other problems, but I tried to central around the most important and I Don't think the central issue here is not about well, what exactly does

William Paul Young believe? I think he's views are going to be in flux for a long time unless By the grace of God the man gets saved

I think one thing we should do is get on our knees and pray to God for those people who?

Love the shack. I remember I was talking to somebody on the train and And You know, you know, you know sometimes when you meet somebody they say they're a

Christian and You're not too sure about the way they're living things like that They're not really too excited about the

Word of God and then they brought up there like the shack and this is a little thing that pushed me to do this and They did it.

Yeah, it's a lack of lack of discernment. Definitely and you don't want to say Oh somebody's definitely lost or you're saved depending on how they feel about the shack

Keep the shack and still be they'll be lost I'm sure a lot of Ultraliberal anti -christian individuals would just laugh and mock the shack like Bill Maher for example

Who's a who's an agnostic? I'm sure he would make fun of the shack and think it's trash literary trash as well.

But anyway, oh Yeah, absolutely Now maybe like for the last bit I'll just focus on the universalism because I spent about 20 minutes 20 something minutes on which is the longest section in the movie on that.

I really wanted to nail home that William Paul Young doesn't Believe the gospel.

It's something he tries to get away from now Again, it's really really important how to put us page 192

Papa in the shack explains to Mac. This is an exchange He says honey, you asked me what

Jesus accomplished on the cross So now listen to me carefully through his death and resurrection.

I am now fully reconciled to the world Mac Responds by saying the whole world you mean those who believe in your eyes

Papa replied the whole world Mac when I read that that just really made me

Absolutely shiver in Another part that explains further the denial of the gospel

He says page this is in page 225 this is Papa speaking.

You don't have relationship with this man. He's referring to mrs. Killer At least not yet.

Forgiveness does not establish relationship. I'll just repeat that again. This is really important Forgiveness does not establish

Relationship why because you're already forgiven mrs. Killers already forgiven.

He hasn't repented yet. He's already forgiven and But forgiveness does not establish relationship.

It's It gets it gets so convoluted, but the thing the important thing to realize is again, he rejects repentance there's another definition for repentance and And I'll just go to William Paul Young or not

William Paul Young see Baxter Kruger He probably explains it a little bit better a little bit more clearly Missy's murder is not going to skip through the pearly gates playing with ladybugs begin with heaven is where the blessed

Trinity dwells The evil that is hijacked and so horribly twists and misuses man avoids the light at all costs

So just explain a little bit missy's killer that horrible man who abducted missy a small little girl and They don't speak well things to her a wonderful children's story.

But anyway, um You know, he talks about see Baxter Kruger and says well the murderer is forgiven

Loved and accepted when he's embraced and included. He does not know it

By any stretch of the imagination and such a knowingly from breathing in pain and trapped in the clutches of darkness

So he does not know he's already low You know, it's this gospel that almost everyone.

This is the way people love it. Don't you know that Jesus loves you? First thing people say because that's what they need to hear

They need to hear how much and how much the universe revolves around them because that was never the problem

In fact, I'm gonna pick up right there where you left off we're gonna go to our final break And we do have a couple of more people waiting to have their questions asked and answered by you

Paul If you'd like to join us on the air while there is still time you could join them with an email as well

By sending it to Chris Ornson at gmail .com chris They are n -z -e -n at gmail .com

Please include your first name city and state and country of residence if you live outside of the

USA. Don't go away We'll be right back with Paul Flynn in our expose of the shack

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Obviously we went off the air back in 2011 for several years, but our relaunching back in June of 2015 was largely due to the help of Linbrook Baptist Church So we want to thank them for their generosity and We are interviewing

Paul Flynn of Megiddo films. He has been our guest for the entire program today discussing

Not only the book the shack which is riddled with dangerous heresies in spite of the fact that it is a popular book even amongst evangelical

Christians and The Film that is being planned

About this book. We wanted to equip our listeners to be prepared beforehand when people start

Raving about this film or when they start excitedly inviting people to attend it when it comes out

And we also wanted to let you know of our guests own Film that is being released today or was released today on the internet, which is a documentary

Exposing the heresies of the shack and if you could repeat the title of the documentary Paul Sure, it's the shack.

It's dangerous theology and error, right? And what is just so we make sure that our listeners have this very important link

What is your website where they can view this? Well, there's two The main website is we get a film org.

There's also a radio website, which is me get a radio .com Great. Could you spell that out for our listeners, please?

Oh, yeah. It's a me G ID do Films org and then get a radio image

ID do radio .com great and for those with American accents

Films is F I L M Well, you know

Chris I just hope that Our listeners did not let an excellent point that our guest

Paul Flynn made go by. Yeah, I wanted about without actually catching obviously Yeah, well, that's what we wanted

But yes, the the man -centeredness of the modern -day gospel is really what you were left off on Before we went to the break.

That's what you're referring to, right? Well, I was referring specifically to the fact that even what we might consider at one time to be small errors in theology

Have had a chance to incubate through the decades and now when something like this comes along it seems commonplace

Normal to so many people but when he was talking about the gospel that you know

People are required to to repent and that you know We've we've been so stressing the love of God that you know that if you were the only person in the world he would have done it for you and and So what would be wrong with the killer in this story being forgiven even though he didn't know it

No, it would just naturally follow it It seems that the gospel of modern evangelicalism

Paul and perhaps you can comment on this or correct me if I'm wrong But it seems that the the main emphasis of the modern gospel

Which is not the gospel at all is to make sinners feel better about themselves rather than to see sinners rescued from Satan from death in eternal damnation and even rescued from themselves

Because of the fact that they are totally depraved, but it seems that this is this has become a gospel of self -esteem

Comfort and encouragement rather than a gospel that is truly a

Transforming gospel and a gospel that rescues sinners and my go off base there in that description

Oh, no, I mean, I don't know if I need to add anything now The thing is right we there's a half truth and Like a lot of the shack is half truth and in in the gospel presentation that half truth

Yes There's joy and peace After all understanding in the gospel, but that's not the primary

You know, that's not the primary message It's not like if you were a pen and first in Jesus or life will get so much better Even though everybody will hate you

You know Obviously the bit of a caricature and people don't really say it like that What what they don't even include the part that the world would be against you and It's you know, they're it's all half truth because even in the shack and the shack

Jesus says that I don't I forget the exact quotation, but and you know

Its own punishment that I you know Papa saying this that I don't need to punish sin sin is its own punishment

Yes, it is his own punishment, but God also punishes all and every sin Either he will he will pour out his will either he poured out his wrath in your place in your place upon the cross or he'll pour it upon you for all eternity and And the thing is, you know

It goes back and it's probably gonna annoy a lot of people this goes right back to abandonment of the doctrines of grace and the

Reformation if we don't have a clear understanding of the of the atonement and the understanding of God's purpose and how sick, you know

There's so many caricatures of Calvinism today. But the thing about it is a Person who is regenerated is a new creature.

They will not live as they once lived They will clearly have the fragrance of the womb of Christ.

Yes, they might struggle But you you say something different. I remember a friend of mine who'd know me for years as he lost

I Was like I was in four metal bands. I was in death metal bands for about four years Before the

Lord saved me out of that and I remember she would have seen me at my worst and Dragged me out of ditches at times and I remember she lent for one time

This was a year after I got saved and she looked forward shook to my eyes and she said Paul You look completely different now.

I don't want to sound like a charismatic or something and oh, you know, it's about a feeling but people see it

People know if you're different now, it's a it was a bit more dramatic for me because I was I Was like I was dabbling all sorts of weird stuff that people who are going up in the church may never see and I pray that They'll never see

But I mean, you know people will see that there's something different. You're gonna be a bit odd Yes, and of course true

Christians Even the most seasoned and godly of them sin and may even and may even commit

Abominable sins, but their life will be marked with repentance. They will not wallow in that.

They're not They're not going to be involved in ongoing Unchanged enslavement to the these

Abominable sins they're going to be getting up by the grace of God repenting of them and turning their backs on them on these sins and because all

Christians who are genuinely born again recognize that we are going to be sinners until we are called home to glory, but our lives will be marked with repentance and this whole this whole gospel so -called where people can remain wallowing in their their pit of sin and feel encouraged and comforted that they will enter into eternal life with Christ when they die, that's a lie and Therefore they are not doing the loving thing

By proclaiming that message to sinners they're they're doing a very damaging

Thing to them and giving them no reason to repent and it's interesting most of these people who have this

Gospel that does not truly transform that does not truly Rescue people not only from the penalty of sin, but from the sin itself

If you were to give them a certain scenario that Militates against their own sensibilities.

They might but they might be more easy They might more easily recognize the folly of what they're saying.

For instance all these liberals Who talk about universalism? And they will say, you know, you should never question the authenticity of somebody's

Christian faith. All right. Well, how about the the The Aryan nations or some of these white supremacist groups that claim to be

Christian Are they false Christians or true Christians these people in the Ku Klux Klan and all kinds of people who have horrendous and abominable?

wicked bigotry that they not only Harbor in their hearts, but celebrate and identify themselves with obviously

These people are not genuinely born again if they continue in an unrepentant fashion the whole to these wicked ideas and behaviors

But I also want to make sure that Paul that you before the time slips away from us

I want to make sure that you what most that you most want to have etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today

Is said before the time slips away So if you could continue with the main points that you want our listeners to go home with Okay, I'm just going to give you two more points because just for the sake of time

We're going to get around but he's not a universalist because he kind of Set universalism as all pathway to God and that's pagan universalism quote -unquote

What we don't believe in a Christian universalism I don't believe that there's only one way to God so it you know, that's in the book

So people I see it's not universalism because you know, there's only one way to God the

Father True Christ and he'll keep saying that over and over again and you know, he seems to really really believe it

The thing about it is he believes that You know, everybody's sins have been paid for through Christ.

So it's kind of he has a Christian quote -unquote Universalism not a pagan

Universalism and another thing I wanted to bring up as well is young view of hell now

It's not very clear and I have to listen to eat some of these interviews over and over again he he speaks very cryptically and And sometimes you like like what is he talking about?

You know, like he seems to it sounds good You know and his view of hell for example

Is not the hell of the Bible it is a hell that is restorative Not even like purgatory, but it is a consuming fire

To restore people back to relationship now in an interview he did with Gumbel's church

He'd be church. I think it's called. I think it's an England He was speaking about he believes in a

God of fire and fury So all the Christian people are you know, believe in hell is I'm okay He says he believes in a

God of fire and fury. He's orthodox But I believe that fire and fury is pursuing in each and every one of us

He talked about you know, kind of the lie, you know like that we you know, you know in some way

He doesn't say trapped in sin, but it's trapped in you know, lack of self -esteem self -loathing

Depression the great sadness is called in the book that that fire is pursuing us all

To bring us into relationship. That's what hell is and if we reject that that is hell

So when when when you know, he got confronted outside of a meeting

I can't remember what where I was it's on the ORM the Christian apologetics research ministry,

I think it stands for and by Matzlick outside of a church he was speaking at and He's putting a few questions to him.

Well, do you believe you know, you know, why is there a hell and it and And Again using orthodox language says well if they rejected that is hell

You know, I mean he sounds like he's orthodox at times, but you have to understand like redefined everything so hell that hell is depression and God leaving you in your depression in order to bring you back to him and That's seriously.

He's it's a very Complex, right? So hell is a good place

Hell is a good place to go. Hell is a good place to go ultimately because it's going to Bring you back to God according to this ridiculous concept in other words

They would view it just like in many ways like you were saying something like a Roman Catholic heresy of purgatory

Yeah, and it's not exactly the same as purgatory because well Yeah, you know because you know the people in purgatory in Roman Catholicism, you know

According to all of them at least actually believe in God Where are these people in you know, hell or I don't even think he's got a fully worked out doctrine

It's very lucid you see from what I can say, but that it's no purging and bringing them into relationship

It's doing everything possible to You know, you know like it and it's systematic it's symptomatic of you know, here's a little note

God is that's not gonna force you to do anything Obviously kind of a caricature of you know, the

Christianity, you know You know God's not going to you know, like you before the foundation of the world

You know, that would be forcing your will even though that's the caricature and not the true view Yeah, this this is really

Bizarre stuff and and that's what makes life more complicated just like with the cults when they have the same vocabulary but a different dictionary and so there are people who there there are some notable

Mormons who are very well -known public figures and I've had

Christians approach me and saying oh, I believe that person saved because They say that Jesus died for them and so on and but obviously there's a whole different Dictionary being used for every one of those statements

That we have to be careful of and obviously that would include this this book and Paul Young himself so it seems to me that a lot of what a lot of the problems involving not only with the teaching in this book, but the the setting of modern evangelicalism that would be so willing to embrace this book is

A departure of the historic teachings of the Reformation and the primarily even more importantly the biblical teachings of the

Reformation that really involved not only the enslaved will of man, but also the nature of the

Atonement these seem to be two very primary truths That the

Reformation dealt with that modern evangelicalism has abandoning it band and that leaving itself prey to this nonsense

Would you agree with that? A lot of times and this is the old catchphrase as you well the reformers never went far enough they didn't quite get rid of all the

Roman Catholicism and I don't know how to come to this conclusion, you know,

Augustine was a Roman Catholic This is what they say and then Calvin borrowed from him and therefore

Calvin is a Roman Catholic and you're kind of Now this is you know,

I think in some circles people don't hear it that much But it is very prominent.

I can't like what I would say first I was in first of all kind of Union Baptist Churches in Ireland and then

I Was in independent Baptist Church, which was very Armenian poor point Armenian believed in the term security, but very much you know that man was not completely or it was not not didn't believe in total depravity had a version to didn't like Calvinism at all kind of thought of a kind of very proud doctrine and Over the years the

Lord led me. I mean when I started to get a radio, I was not a Calvinist but by I think it was by the end of 2012, you know,

I was gradually coming towards and I'm saying that you know A lot of what was said about John Calvin wasn't true, especially by Dave Hunt, but I digress

The thing is right Historically, where is the church? it's

It's agreeing if we want to look at the Reformation. It's an agreement with the counter reformation

It's an agreement with the with the canons of Trent That's a can of the dorks the canons of Trent now people might want to kind of go.

I'm rejecting Roman Catholicism I'm not following tradition. What well, yeah Oh, yeah, you know as a man just because one believes it doesn't mean it's wrong.

But if you look at the Reformation Everyone in Dale Calvin Luther on and on they all rejected free will

They thought as the kind of Luther obviously didn't get everything right and he didn't go, you know

I agree. He didn't go as far as he should but not in ways people think but he and he was right at the end of his bondage of the will that And this is the paraphrase everything did hinge around free will and I think we

Original sin of man's condition how they're dead and trespassing sins according to Ephesians chapter 2 verse 1

That's where we have to start because what we've done is that man isn't quite that bad

We have kind of settled for a semi -liberalism We've settled for man is a little bit of good in him

And if you can appeal to that then we can bring in all these gimmicks Because if man has a little bit of free will folks we would be wrong

Would we not not to bring out every gimmick to make sure they don't go to hell? Yes, and ironically

The the understanding of a universalist of What has occurred on Calvary in some ways is more biblically sound than the modern evangelical?

Because the universalist agrees with the Calvinist that Christ completely

Completed the work he totally Finished the work of redemption on the cross the heresy comes in When the universalist joins with the

Arminian and saying that Christ died for every single person who was or ever will be born on this earth and therefore you have an

Atonement that was really impotent in many ways. It was an atonement that may have

Bought a one -way ticket to heaven for those that was intended But it does nothing else to transform that one for whom it was attended according to that heretical understanding of it

So therefore the the concept that Christ died For everyone that with the modern evangelical concept, but yet most of those people are going to hell it really undermines and mocks

The mighty and glorious and precious and amazing work that Christ actually accomplished on Calvary People have a real problem with you know saying well

What do I say to people because they're so used to saying well Christ died for you, right? Well show me one place in the

Bible where anybody ever said that right? So you also didn't go around saying Christ died you they never did that.

Well, here's the thing I mean if you want to use the atonement To put the fear of God into them preach it like the

Apostles did and explain to them if you repent and believe and trust The Lord Jesus Christ.

He has paid your debt He doesn't have to be paid twice or anything like that anything strange like that so because there's so many implications, but I said it's the people sometimes either and and They're so used to hearing

God loves you. I don't know. I think somebody said to me in the street one time We were giving out gospel tracts. Oh, you're probably gonna say

God loves me at all. I'm not saying that And he kind of looked at me kind of strangely.

I was like, it's like, you know, I'm not gonna say, you know Like I'm just I'm just gonna preach the gospel

No, I do not know in eternity past who's elect who's not and all this kind of stuff

We are to preach what's in the Word of God and call men Everywhere Call them to repent and You know, if you want to use the atonement either

Christ paid for your sin on that cross or you will Pay every last bit and you cannot that's why it's eternal and you know to be honest

How will this fit in? We want You know Well, we have to be

Instructed in the Bible The saddest thing is we specialize in everything, but the gospel

The gospel is just something you learn first day. Well, I knew the gospel then

I move on and I learn about the rapture Goodness me. Do you think that you you and I Try to say this as possible.

You've no business being a pastor or anything else Never stop learning about the gospel river before we run out of time.

I want to ask you Chris. Can we have this guy back? Oh, definitely If he is willing and God is willing more importantly, yes we definitely would like you to come back

Paul in the near future and and obviously There is nothing wrong.

And in fact, it's completely biblical To tell fellow believers that Christ loves them and died for them but we can't go to anonymous strangers that we don't even know and give them the assurance of that because Obviously because that would be totally contradictory to what we believe the

Bible teaches But once again, if you could let our listeners know How they can get in touch with you and how they can watch this documentary you've created

Sure, if anybody's got questions or comments or anything like that I'm gonna get a phone to gmail .com

is the web as the email Again, MEG IDDO is how you spell

Megiddo. It's Valley in Israel and You know film .org

if like I have a channel on YouTube People have often asked me in email me about DVDs and stuff

I made a conscious decision a couple years ago, basically to not spend a lot of One -man show

Here, you know, it like a lot of help my wife as well But um, so I don't really have a lot of time for you know, working with DVDs and stuff

So I always just said, okay I'm just gonna trust the Lord put it out for free people can People can copy it people burn it you can do whatever they want with it

Just just don't make a profit off of it or whatever And we're out of time brother right of time and I just want everybody to have a safe and blessed

Resurrection Day weekend and I want you all always to remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater