Matt Slick Live: January 15, 2025

Another program powered by the Truth Network. It's Matt Slick Live!

Matt is the founder and president of the Christian Apologetics Research Ministry found online at calm .org.

When you have questions about Bible doctrines, turn to Matt Slick Live for answers. Taking your calls and responding to your questions at 877 -207 -2276.

Here's Matt Slick. Hey everybody, welcome to the show. It's me, Matt Slick. And if you want to give me a call, we're actually live.

It's January 15th, 2025. If you want to call me, you can.

And I'll explain a little bit of why we're off the air there a little bit. We had, let's just say, some major technical glitches.

Let's just say at the radio station and some other stuff going on. And that's it. So we are live right now.

If you want to give me a call on this January 15th, 2025. And I'm welcome.

Take your calls. All right, let me see. Let me check a couple of things here really fast because I've got a lot going on.

And, okay. Let's see. Let's see. I'm going to give this a...

Whoops. Hold on. I'm typing in a phone number. Okay. All right.

And hopefully... That's some good stuff going on. So actually,

I just was texting the owner of the radio station network. And I said, do you want to call in and explain what was going on?

And so he's going to do that. He just said he was. So, and that's no big deal.

Because, you know, it's worth talking about. But, hey, look. If you want to give me a call, the number is 877 -207 -2276.

And if you are so inclined and you don't want to really call or you don't have the ability to or whatever reason, and you'd still like a comment or a question asked and maybe answered, all you have to do is direct an email to info at CARM .org.

Info at CARM, C -A -R -M dot O -R -G. And, okay.

That sounds good. All right. And so, CARM .org. I'm sorry.

There's a lot going on behind the scenes here. So CARM .org forward slash...

Let me start over. Yeah. I'm distracted. Send me an email to...

Oh, man. Info at CARM .org. Whoa. Okay. Sorry about that, folks. And put in the subject line, radio comment or radio question.

And we can get to those on the air. And also, we're doing something new. So, and it's going live yet.

How come it's not going live? It should be going live. It's not going live? Well, it seems like it is.

If you can troubleshoot that and tell me what to do, maybe during the break we can figure that out. Because it looks like it's live to me, but it looks like it is.

So, there you go. All right. Oh, it's good? All right. Yeah, we've got a lot of stuff going on.

There's just a... Oh, yes, I did. I did make two rumbles because it was weird. It was just a glitch.

And I went, did it work? Did it not? I couldn't find it. I made another one. I guess that's why. And sorry about that.

So, yeah, there's a lot. There's a lot going on. And, and, there's a lot of other stuff going on.

Not only is there the CARM radio and stuff like that issues. There is a whole other slew of things, all good, that we are working behind the scenes on the

CARM Intergalactic Empire. So, there's a lot going on there. And also, here's something to think about.

Just an FYI. People challenge me to debates. They challenge me. They go, I want to debate you on this or that.

And because the last few have been such poor debates, the people who want to debate me, they're out of control, rude, interruptive, muting me while I'm answering questions.

It's just bad behavior. What we're going to be doing is not having any debates until we've got this system worked out where they're going to...

Anybody who wants to debate me has got to sign a document, an agreement, that certain things will happen certain ways.

It's not that I'm trying to restrict them. It's just you can't be insulting. We have to have a moderator. Here's the agreed upon topic.

You've got to provide definitions for the terms and the topic. Just things like this. And we're going to be working on that and some other things related to that.

We've got some other ideas, too. We've got some big ideas. So, a lot of good stuff is happening, actually. But, man,

I'll tell you. I'm going to tell you. You know, I think I'm pretty good at reading, writing, arithmetic, and theology.

And I can't even write because behind the scenes, all I'm doing is tech stuff.

And I mean, just so much. And now, I think I mentioned it before, and we're still looking into this, we are talking about hiring somebody full -time as an operations director or coordinator, something like that.

So, that's what we're hoping to be able to do. And we're working out the job description.

So, if you're interested in something like that, you can contact us at info at CARM .org.

But I've got to tell you, the position is more like somebody who has some expertise in the ability to keep track of projects, make calls, expand the radio show, learn how to monetize

Twitter, YouTube, learn how to, or already know how to work with the people that we're already working with in volunteers, how to set up possible seminars, speaking engagements, and some other things.

And even if you don't know how to do all that stuff, if you have expertise in a lot of areas that are similar, and you're smart enough to figure it out, that's what we want.

We want someone smart enough to figure it out, which means I wouldn't be eligible to do my own job that I'm asking for.

So, we want someone who's smart who could do that. And we're looking for that kind of a thing.

And we're working through other particulars. And I'm in contact with some people about this.

So, there's a lot going on. There's a lot going on. So, yeah, I think I do have two

Rumble accounts. My apologies for that. Let's see if I can get another something going here.

I've got that already going, don't I? And there's a lot, like I said, just happening. And we were out yesterday and the day before.

Yeah, there's two. Oh, there's two Rumbles. Yeah, I blew that one. Maybe you can cancel one of them.

We can do that, you know. I don't know. So, yeah, it was a glitch.

I was trying to do three things at once. Usually, I can do two things at once, but not three. All right, having said all of that, 877 -207 -2276.

So, this morning, I did something interesting. I have a friend, Alex, who lives in Florida, this wonderful state of Florida.

And he has contacts in different parts of the world. And he asked me to do a teaching on the

Trinity this morning to some Pakistani pastors. And so I did that.

We went for two hours. I connected and interrelated the Trinity, the person and work of Christ, and salvation.

And I wove through all of them for two hours and did that. And I hope that they benefited from that.

So that was a lot of fun. So I was able to do that and show them a lot of scriptures. And I had to speak a little bit on the slow side because, you know, linguists are second language.

And there's a lot of concepts that I could get into more deeply, but you have to know a bit of vocabulary.

So I had to kind of not talk about them too deeply, but just deep enough to expand on that.

And that was enjoyable. I've also been doing impromptu discussions and debates with the

Roman Catholics and the East Orthodox. Still been doing that. And they don't like what

I say. I'm going to say it again, that the Roman Catholic Church and the East Orthodox Church both preach a false gospel, have a false priesthood, and a false

Mary. And these are the things I've been discussing a lot lately.

And I enjoy these kinds of discussions, particularly when they're polite. Now, I know that it upsets a lot of people.

Oh, and you've got to get this. So two nights ago, I was doing this very thing, the very polite conversation with people who think

I'm wrong. And they're Catholic, for example, a Catholic guy. Nice guy. And he was giving, you know,

I would say something, he'd say something, we're going back and forth. And he would give an answer, I'd give an answer. It was a good discussion, really was a good discussion.

And right when I'm giving the gospel, all of a sudden, this has happened so many times.

Okay, so here's the gospel message. This is what it is, folks. This is what you need to be saved. All of a sudden, someone will come into the room and scream and yell and be foul.

I mean, within five seconds, maybe ten at the most. It is strange. It happens.

It's happened several times. In fact, people in the room noticed it and had comments and said,

Matt, each time you try and give the gospel, something like this happens. I go, I know. It's just strange, but that's the kind of thing that does happen.

So given the gospel out, and hopefully by God's grace, he will call people, and they will come to faith in the true and living

Christ, the true gospel, the true priesthood, the priesthood of all believers, and the true Mary, not the one who's a functioning goddess that you can pray to, and hears millions of prayers all over the world simultaneously, spoken and thought in different languages, knows the intention of your heart, and she can answer them.

It's just ridiculous. She's a functioning goddess, and we don't want to do that. We don't want to have that kind of idolatrous stuff that they're doing.

I call them. I say it's idolatry. They go, no, it's not idolatry. Oh, yes, it is. And then they say, no, it's not idolatry.

It is, what's the word? Not reference. Oh, they use the word, you know,

I've said it 100 times, too, respect. There's another word for it. Darn, maybe someone in the chat there can give me the word.

I've said it 100 times. This is one of those brain glitches. It's not called worship. It's called adoration, adoration.

We're adoring her. We're not worshiping her. And I said, here's an illustration. I said, there's a guy in a gym, and he goes out, and he benches 250 pounds on bench press.

Okay, he does it, you know, 10 reps. Then he does, you know, he does a bunch of military presses.

He does some, he's a bad, he shouldn't work all these muscles in one day. But anyway, and then he does lats, and then he does abs, and he does glutes, and he does hamstrings, he does quads, calves, all this stuff, forearms.

He does, he's a full -blown workout. And someone said, man, it's a good workout you had. He said, it wasn't a workout, it's exercise.

What? That's exactly what a workout is. Well, no, no, it's not a workout. It's exercise, even though it's the same thing.

And so, it's like saying, no, they don't worship Mary. They adore her. Even though worship of God and praying to her,

I mean, praying to God, worshiping God, adoring God, all of this is the same thing. But they say, no, it's just adoration.

It's not worship. That's only for God. Even though we pray to God and Mary the same, even though we expect both of them to answer the same questions and the same answers, it's not worship.

It's adoration. So, it's like a guy going in the gym, working out for two hours. I wasn't working out.

I was exercising. But that's what a workout is. Nope. It's different. Because I was only exercising.

I was intending to work out. I was only intending to exercise. Ah, okay,

I'll back away from you and get away from, you know, because obviously the oxygen in that area of the room isn't very good.

All right, let's get to Jermaine from California. Jermaine, welcome. You're on the air. Oh, hi,

Matt. Yeah, I just wanted to ask about the great mystery mentioned in the

New Testament in various places, especially Thessalonians. I think I actually told your screener of Revelation, but I was more referring to Thessalonians.

I have a friend who's really, like, really heavy into dispensationalism. And we have friendly talks, but he seems to have that great mystery.

He takes a theology that it's the secret rapture and that's all we should be preaching about.

And, of course, I differ with him. So I just wanted to kind of hear you kind of develop that a little bit, because I know a lot of these people who take this almost like a hyper dispensationalist view, they have one view of Scripture, and that's it.

And that's rightly dividing the word of truth according to how they see things. And I just don't see it that way.

So maybe you can develop some thought on that. Well, OK. We've got a break coming up.

We're talking about Revelation 17 .5, a great mystery. And I think also it's 2

Thessalonians 2. So let me kind of look at those, and we'll get back after the break. OK, brother? Hey, folks, if you want, hold on, and we'll be right back after these messages.

877 -207 -2276. Be right back. It's Matt Slick Live!

Taking your calls at 877 -207 -2276. Here's Matt Slick.

All right, buddy. Welcome back to the show. Let's get back on the air with, let's see, with Jermaine.

Yeah, Jermaine, welcome. You're on the air, buddy. All right. OK, so I'm a little confused because I looked on the break, and the word mystery was used, and it occurs in different places in the

Bible. But in 2 Thessalonians, there's a hint of something there.

But the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. So, and then

Revelation, and Revelation basically 10 and 17. So there's different ones.

So which one is, which verse or verses is he focusing on about this mystery? What do you think it is?

Let's take a look at it. You know, actually, I got it wrong. It was actually 1

Timothy 3 .16. I'm sorry about that. That's the great mystery that he's referring to.

1 Timothy 3 .16. OK. OK. But by common confession, great is the mystery of godliness.

He was revealed in the flesh, was vindicated in the spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed by the nations, believed in the world, taken up in glory.

The mystery. The Greek word is, incidentally, mysterion. Mysterion.

And also Ephesians 5 .32 is like a text. Just wherever the word mystery is, but especially, the word mystery seems to be referring to the rapture.

OK. Well, it says this in Ephesians 5 .32, and I'll go to verse 29.

For no one has hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church, because we are all members of his body.

For this reason, a man shall leave his father and mother and shall be joined to his wife, and the two shall be one flesh. The mystery is great.

But I'm speaking with reference to Christ and his church. That has nothing to do with the rapture in Ephesians 5 .32.

What other verse was he looking at? Yeah, I think the next one will probably be maybe

Matthew 13 .11, but that says the mystery is in the kingdom of heaven.

But it seems like mystery is always some sort of secret revelation only given to the church in this age, according to how they view things.

And it's really kind of trying to, I don't want to say argue in a circle, but it seems like they have one particular view, and that's it.

Like there's no, every other view is not correct according to them. This is what you do when you meet people like this, and they make a statement.

And they might say a statement, for example, the mystery is dealing with the rapture, it's pre -tribulation rapture. Let's say someone says that.

You say, well, can you show me a verse? Not 50 all at once, one at a time.

I'd like to look at one verse at a time and to see what you want to say about that if it says that. I say, you do, because a lot of times you don't know what they're getting at.

And I get a verbal carpet bombing sometimes. People will say, well, pre -trib rapture is true, because, and then, you know, they just throw out 40 verses.

And really fast, you go, excuse me, but that does nothing other than just lay down a bunch of verses out of context.

Let's take a look at them. Let's go look. And when I do that, their view just dismantles itself, generally speaking.

Because a lot of times they're reading into the text, and I say, well, let's look at the context. Like here's an example of something, tradition.

And I was talking to a Roman Catholic recently, and this is a brief example of something. He says tradition, you're supposed to follow tradition.

And tradition of the church is true. And I said, where does it say that in the Bible? And they said, this person says 2

Thessalonians 2 .15, where it says, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught. I said, see, there you go. And I said, let's look at the context.

And in this case, you've got to read the whole chapter. And the tradition he's talking about is the return of Christ and the arrival of the

Antichrist. That's what he's talking about specifically. So it's not about everything that the church might do in all traditions.

And it's just a good, simple illustrating point that when you read the context of something, a lot of times what they say just goes away.

Make sense? Yes, it makes perfect sense. And I'll get with him, and I'll get back to you, and then

I'll let you know how things work. Okay, and if that doesn't work, I assume you're a big guy, just get him in a headlock, okay?

And just cut off the oxygen to the brain a little bit until he passes out, then whisper in his ear, you know, it's not true.

You know, until he wakes up. There's different techniques. I'll do it in love, because we do like each other.

You can do it in love. Get him in a headlock. A friend of mine, Charlie, used to call it shrimping. I remember that back in the day,

Charlie. Shrimping, when a big guy would take a small guy, he's a shrimp, I don't know what the word was, and then do something to him.

He'd say, there you go. You know, it's just called shrimping. So, I don't know, man. Charlie's looking at me obscene.

I remember that. You told me that, Charlie, like 40 years ago. So I remember that. Never forgot that term.

So he's chuckling. All right, buddy? All right. Thanks a lot, man. I appreciate you.

All right, man. God bless. All right. Now, let's get on with Kit from Arizona.

Kit, welcome you on the air, buddy. Hey, I got a couple of questions, but I'll go with the easy one first, because I don't know how much time you got.

How do you refute full preterists? I got this. A friend of mine keeps bringing it to me.

I hope he's listening. Well, to me, it's terrifyingly easy, because I would have them agree to what full preterism teaches, that Jesus returned in the armies of Jerusalem to destroy

Jerusalem. That's what they're going to say, right? And they'll say, yeah. And I say, okay, let's go to Acts 1, 9 -11.

And I've done this many times with full preterists. And after he had said these things, as Jesus said some stuff to the disciples, he was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received them out of their sight.

And I asked the preterists, I say, lift it up. Was that into the air, into the sky, where the cloud received them out of their sight?

And they've always said yes. Okay, good. As they were gazing intently into the sky while he was going on, two men stood beside him.

So they're looking up where the clouds are in the sky, is that correct? And they'll say, well, yes. Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky?

This is the NASB. This Jesus who's been taken from you into heaven will come in just a way. Say, well, you've watched him go into heaven.

So I said, that's how he's coming back, not in the armies of Jerusalem, because that's the prophecy out of the sky.

And that's how you refute them. Now, proof is different than persuasion. That's proof that full preterism is wrong.

What they'll do then, I'm sure you're kind of familiar with this, because you're no slouch with scripture, is they will start saying, well, you see, the sky represents this, and the cloud represents that, and then they start inserting stuff from all over the place.

And then I go back to the text, and I read it again. Well, it says sky where the clouds are, and that's where he was.

That's how I begin, and I go to another place after that. But any comments, or you want to go on? I can show you what else

I do with it. Well, that's funny, because that's the same answer I gave him. I said,

I don't know if they're saying Jesus returned invisibly, or what the deal is, but he went up physically in a cloud.

People saw it. That's exactly what I said to him, but he said, I want the Matt answer. And I said, well, call

Matt Slick live. And he hasn't done that yet, so hopefully he's listening today. Well, hopefully.

Let me just add a little bit more into this before the break. This is 1 Thessalonians 4 .15.

By this we say to you, by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout. Descending from heaven, he went into heaven, he's going to come back, descending from heaven, right?

Oh, there's a break, so hold on. I'll start this over again at the end of the break, after the break. We can get into that, okay?

So hold on, buddy. Hey, folks, be right back after these messages. You can give me a call, 877 -207 -2276.

Be right back. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877 -207 -2276.

Here's Matt Slick. Welcome back to the show, everybody. If you want to give me a call, the number is 877 -207 -2276.

You can also e -mail me info at CARM .org, info at C -A -R -M dot

O -R -G. I'm putting the subject line, radio comment, radio question. Let's get back on with Kit.

Are you still there, buddy? I am, yeah. All right. So there's a couple other things

I throw out at people when I'm talking about this, it's a listen. And as I was saying, go to 1

Thessalonians 4, you can start at verse 16. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout.

Now this talks about the single coming of the Lord, that's verse 15. We who are alive and remain until the coming of the

Lord, the return of Christ. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout.

That's just like it says in Acts 1, 9 -11. With the voice of the archangel, with the trumpet of God, the dead in Christ will rise first.

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together to meet them in the clouds, to meet the

Lord in the air. In the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. So the return of Christ, the one return of Christ, is specified that we're going to meet him in the air, in the clouds.

Now what they'll do is say, this is really ridiculous, sorry about this, they say the clouds like a cloud of witnesses.

They go someplace else, take the word cloud in a different context and transfer the meaning over to here.

It's called illegitimate totality transfer. It means that a word has lots of meanings, and you take one of those meanings and move it around where you want it to be to get the text to say what you want it to say.

Like when I talk to the Catholics, Matthew 1, 25, Mary kept her virgin until Jesus was born.

Well, obviously the context tells you exactly what's going on there, until Jesus was born.

But they'll say, well, the word until over here in this place can mean continuing on, and it does in some other places.

So therefore that's what it means here. And they do this kind of a thing. And so it's illegitimate.

You shouldn't do that. You read something for what it says. So that's one of the things I'll do is go to Acts 1, 9 -11, and then 1

Thessalonians 4, 15 -17. And I often sometimes will help them out a little bit, which doesn't help them out.

I'll go to Matthew 24, 29 -31. But immediately after the tribulation of those days, and folks who are pre -tribulation rapture, check this out.

But immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, the moon will not give its light, the stars will fall from the sky, the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

And they'll say those words are used in the Old Testament in various forms of judgment in the

Old Testament context. Judgment and mighty things happening. I'll say, yeah, that's true.

And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky. In the sky. And then all the tribes in the earth will mourn, and they will see the

Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And then what they'll often do is say, well, it doesn't mean he's literally on the clouds.

It means that he already got there in 70 A .D., and this is just a phrase talking about his great power.

But it says coming on the clouds, which is fulfilling how Jesus is coming out of the clouds in Acts 1, 9 -11.

Then it says, and he will send forth his angel with the great trumpet, and they will gather as elect from the four winds from one end of the sky to the other.

So obviously, this is talking about Jesus returning. The clouds, the sky are mentioned, just as 1

Thessalonians 4, 15 -17 talks about Jesus returning in the clouds, and Acts 1, 9 -11 talks about him returning in the clouds.

And these are the three areas I'll go through with the full Preterists, and I'll just repeat it just as a cycle.

You know, a trinity of pericopes, and say, well, this is what it says. But now you're just adding in cloud means it's over there, and witnessing over there means something, so you're putting it over into this text to make it say what you want, and I can call them on the carpet on it.

Does that make sense? Yeah, it makes sense. That's what I talked to him about, and I talked to him about the fact that the

Jehovah's Witnesses say he came back invisibly, even though the Bible says everybody will see him and all of that.

We're talking about, I don't think he would mind me saying it, we're talking about Myles. He's an atheist, and he's been going to Discord servers that are full of full

Preterists, and he asked me how to deal with it, and then when I told him, he said he wants a

Matt Slick answer, and I said, call him up. Yeah, Myles. He asks great questions.

Yeah, Myles is a good guy. I've got another question if you've got time. Sure. Do you have time? Sure, go ahead.

So I've been reading Jeremiah, and in Jeremiah 45, God talks about, you know, doing judgment against Egypt and other places other than Judah, mostly he's talking about, you know, taking over Jerusalem and the

Chaldeans, you know, taking the Jews into exile and all that, but he talks about other nations, too.

And so I'm wondering, he talks about their idolatry and things. I'm wondering, is the

Bible saying that God gave the Torah to all the nations around Israel?

Because it seems like he's making them responsible for keeping the Torah, even though they weren't at Mount Sinai.

So what do you do with that? I have to look at the exact verse to see.

I'm looking at, you said Jeremiah 45, which is only five verses, and it's a message to.

. . It is? Yeah, yeah. Jeremiah 45. Oh, you're right. I gave the wrong one.

I probably meant 46. He talks about a whole bunch of nations. There's the

Day of Judgment in the Old Testament, for people who are listening. There's a Day of Judgment in the Old Testament, and there's one in the

New Testament. And the one in the Old Testament, he deals with a whole bunch of nations, and he deals with them the same way he deals with Israel, for their idolatry, for their adultery, for sacrificing children and all of that, which seems to indicate he gave the law to all of them, or they were aware of it somehow.

Well, there's a lot of stuff he could talk about there. So what

I'm looking for, though, is a specific verse to examine, because off the top of my head, I'm not sure.

So if we could look at a specific verse, and if I do it with nations, like the word nations there, is in verse 1 of chapter 46, that which came as the word of the

Lord to Jeremiah the prophet concerning the nations. And the nations have heard of your shame, and the earth is full of the cry of distress.

I'll make an end of all the nations. So I'm not exactly sure which verse talks about the law. Yeah, you're sorry

I didn't say that. Well, it doesn't mention the law specifically, but it says, I'm going to destroy you for worshiping other gods, and it mentions their sins and all of that, and so it seems like they must have known what the law was, or why is he destroying them?

Because he does this with a whole bunch of nations. He does this with Judah, and we know that the best, of course, because he talks about that the most, but he does this with Syria.

He's going to do this with Babylon as well later on in the book of Daniel, but he does this with Syria, Egypt, and all of the nations around Israel as well.

Yes, there's a couple things to talk about here. One is that God has his way of communicating to those nations various things before the judgment of God is upon them.

We see this exemplified by the prophets going to varying nations in the Old Testament, warning them, things like that, and then they're judged.

You can remember when Moses said it to Pharaoh, for example, and then judgment came. So I would look in history to see if that's it, if it's not specifically in Scripture, but a lot of times it's recorded elsewhere that this is what was going on.

That's just looking at that. But there's also something which I think is interesting in 1

Corinthians 4 .4. It's a concept there. Paul says, For I am conscious of nothing against myself, yet I'm not by this acquitted.

He's not aware of anything that he's done wrong, but that doesn't make him okay because the one who judges him is the devil.

The devil, my goodness, is the Lord. So what he's saying is,

I'm not conscious of what I've done. Just because you're ignorant doesn't excuse you, and that's the point.

So the nations are under the Adamic representation, the Adamic covenant, but all people in Adam are obligated to do certain things, and plus the law of God's written on their hearts, so they're without excuse.

Romans 2 talks about this, Romans 1 and 2. And so that's what I would, first thing

I'd look at on the 30 ,000 -foot level and then look into the text particularly to see what's going on in that context.

I can't do it right now over the air because it's... Yeah, you make a good point. He did send Jeremiah to those nations.

I forgot about that. He sent him completely to those nations. I don't know if he sent anybody to Canaan, and he definitely punishes the

Canaanites for their sacrificing of babies and their idolatry and all that.

But in what we're talking about, I forgot. He sent Jeremiah specifically to specific nations.

He sent him to Jeremiah and all that. I forgot about that. Sometimes you can get bogged down reading everything he says to the prophets.

Yep, and they called Jeremiah the weeping prophet and that he was the worst evangelist because he got so few converts, that kind of a thing.

But he was called by God to go proclaim, and he did. And people didn't repent, and judgment came.

So, yep, there you go, buddy. Yeah, it's very eye -opening reading the prophets. Anyway, I'll let you go.

Thank you for answering my questions and for doing Matt Slick Live. All right, kid. God bless, buddy.

All right. Hey, folks, we'll be right back after these messages. We'll talk to Dave from California on divorce and remarriage, and hopefully that'll be interesting to be still on.

So please, stay tuned. It's Matt Slick Live!

Taking your calls at 877 -207 -2276. Here's Matt Slick.

All right, everyone, welcome back to the show. If you want to give me a call, we have two open lines, 877 -207 -2276.

Let's get on with Dave from California. Dave, welcome. You're on the air. Yeah, hi,

Matt. Hi. Yeah, I just wanted to discuss the issue of divorce and remarriage because I just feel like it's a really controversial issue.

Okay. Do you have a question about it, or do you want me to just kind of give the basics about it?

Well, I just know a lot of Christians that are very, very, I want to say legalistic about it, where they maintain that divorce and remarriage is not permitted under any circumstance.

That's not true. Except death, of course. You know, that's undeniable that that's the exception is if your spouse dies.

But otherwise, you know, Matthew 19, 9, Jesus makes it clear that if you divorce for any reason other than sexual immorality and then remarry, you're committing adultery.

But a lot of Christians will maintain, right, a lot of Christians will maintain that this would be not just a one -time adultery, like it would be perpetual adultery.

It doesn't say that. It does not. Matthew 19, 9, it just says, except for adultery or immorality, pornea is the

Greek word. So divorce is just, that's it, you do this. If you have this option of divorce, it's a subjunctive in the

Greek, so there's a possibility, not an absolute necessity, but if you do this, okay, if you divorce your wife, you can't do it except, okay, for immorality, pornea.

So eat Jesus' own words if you did that. Now, God issued a writ of divorce to Israel.

A lot of people don't know that. And that's, see, that's

Jeremiah 3, 8. The Lord himself divorced Israel. Let me read this to you. Just as a quick, we'll get into some other stuff here.

The word of the Lord came to me saying, oh, 3, 8, not 13, 8. I typed in one thing too many.

That's right. I saw for all the adulteries of faithless Israel, I had sent her away and given her a writ of divorce.

So God divorced Israel for her spiritual authority. I mean, adultery. So wait a minute.

If someone wants to say even for that you can't, well, then why did God do it? So that's just a point, okay?

And then the other area of permission is found in 1

Corinthians 7. And this is abandonment. So when, hold on, get it up there.

Come on. My fingers aren't working sometimes. But to the married

I give instruction. This is verse 10. I, not I, but the Lord, that the wife should not leave her husband.

If she leaves, let her remain unmarried. The rest I say, not the

Lord. If a brother has a wife who's an unbeliever and she consents to live with him, he must not divorce her. And it goes on.

It says, however, if the unbelieving one leaves, let him leave.

1 Corinthians 7 .15. If the unbelieving one leaves, let him leave. The brother or sister is not under bondage in such cases.

So if you have an unbelieving spouse who abandons you, you're free. Because they've broken the covenant of marriage.

So adultery and abandonment are definitely two grounds. And I've married people, done many marriages, and I would marry someone who was divorced if they had met the biblical requirements.

You know, that's it. As well as if their spouse abandoned them, they went through the issue of trying to reconcile, trying to make it right, and the other person would not have anything to do with it, that person's unfree.

That would not prohibit remarriage. Okay? Okay. Okay, sound good?

Anything else going on? So just to be clear, like Jesus uses the word commits adultery, correct?

Not is in a state of constant adultery. Yes. Yes, so if you go to Matthew 19 .9,

what it says, and I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, this is the aorist active subjunctive in the

Greek, divorces. Aorist means past tense. Active means you're doing the action. Subjunctive deals with possibility.

And so not a definite actuality, but a possibility. Whoever may do this is what it's saying.

Whoever may have already done this. You've committed adultery, unless it's because the other person was in pornea, sexual immorality.

Wow. That's it. It's just that simple. Okay. Okay.

So is there more behind there? Something else going on? Are you there?

We lose them. I guess we lost them. Yeah, this is an important topic. And let me just say this a little bit, that early on in my marriage with my wife, we had it pretty rough.

There was just a lot of stuff happening and we had to go to marriage counseling. And let me just say that if it wasn't for us both being

Christians, we probably would have ended up getting a divorce. Neither one of us would abandon the other and neither one of us would commit adultery.

So we were stuck. We were just stuck. And we had to work it out.

And we did. It took some work. And we made things better. And now we've been married 38 years.

And I just tell people how lucky she is to have me because I'm so wonderful. But you see, the thing is, the point is, we go through things and a lot of times what people will do is they have a way out, then they'll take it.

Instead of doing what God wants them to do, you make it work, you figure it out. Now what do you do if one person is beating, physically beating another?

That's a form of abandonment and that's when the elders need to be getting involved. Now in the

Old Testament, I like this. I'm not saying this is now present, but I'm just telling you a little

FYI. In the Old Testament, when that happened, and the husband was beating his wife, in the Old Testament context, the male relatives of the wife, immediate family, would go have a discussion with the husband about it.

They'd just talk about it. And then the wife would nurse him back to health. They'd be like, they took it seriously.

And so, I remember hearing someone say, oh yeah, they took it seriously. The wife's got to nurse him back to health because they said, do you want to do that?

Okay, we'll show you what it is. So, we have to work on our marriages, whether we like it or not.

And I'm going to tell you sometimes, this is not easy, it's not convenient, and you certainly don't want to. That's just too bad.

That's why I say to people, not my problem, that's yours. It's too bad. You've got to work it out. You have to work it out.

You've got to do what you've got to do. And sometimes it takes months to work through things. It just does sometimes.

And that's what happens when you get two sinners together. But let me tell you something. If your eyes are on the

Lord Jesus, and you're wanting to please Him, then it's easier to do what's right before your wife, or before your husband.

A lot of times people do. This catches people off guard when I tell them.

You'll have a, I've done lots of marriage counseling, 35 couples, I've done 35 or 36 over the years, where I've done serious marriage counseling.

And a lot of times, the man or the husband or the wife, it doesn't matter, they'll say that their spouse isn't properly doing whatever it is.

And I'll address that, and say maybe that's what it is. And sometimes it is. That's a problem. We've got to address this, and we work on it.

And what happens a lot is we become so self -justified. The other person's doing what's wrong.

What we often do is look and use ourselves, our hearts, and our intentions as what is right.

That person, my spouse, is doing something wrong, and he or she needs to change.

And that becomes the whole motif in your mind, in your heart.

Because you're convinced that the other person has done something wrong. It is the case. But what

I often do, is I will address specific issues. Sometimes they need to be addressed very specifically if someone is doing something wrong.

But what's so often overlooked is the offended party's responsibility in being godly.

A lot of times what happens is we will look at our spouse and say, our spouse is the one doing

ABC that is so wrong, I don't have to change. I don't have to do anything. That person's got to change.

Because I'm okay. And the kind of prideful arrogance that that is, what it does is it undermines marriage.

Now I'm not saying the other person doesn't have to change after doing something wrong. They obviously do. I'm just saying it takes two to tangle.

It takes two. And I've never seen a case where only one person is guilty.

Usually both are. I mean, both are. Usually. There's some exceptions here.

But usually, I'll get into that. Side note.

But it might be 90 % one person and 10 % another. Or 50 -50 or 60 -40.

Whatever it is. But there's always the case where what do you do when you find out that you have a problem with your spouse?

Your spouse is doing something wrong. Maybe it is doing something wrong. Then what do you do? Let's say, for example, your spouse is committing adultery.

You go to the church as elders. And you ask the elders to get involved. Counseling, the whole bit.

You can do divorce as an option. Or you can stay and work through it as an option. That's up to you. But then in that process, what is

God teaching you about yourself? Not only is the necessity of addressing what your spouse is doing, but also, what have you got to learn?

And a lot of people just overlook this because they're so self -vindicating, so self -righteous, that they say,

I've got nothing wrong. Or, I didn't do anything wrong. That's always something you've got to be careful of. I didn't do anything wrong.

Me, look how good I am. I'm fine. Look at me. Pat me on the back. That's not good. And I'm not saying that it's only that person.

I'm saying both people have to be looked at and examined in situations like this. What has God got for you?

What's He training you for? And through it. That's hard for people.

Particularly when they are the ones who are wronged. When they are wronged. And it's not fair.

Let me show you something. Let's see if I can find it right here really quickly. Yes. This is

Ephesians 4 .31. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with malice.

Now, notice what he's saying here, Paul the Apostle, in Ephesians 4 .31. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger.

Now, if someone does something against you and you're rightfully wronged, they really did do something wrong.

But sometimes they didn't do something wrong. You only think they did something wrong. Either way, you get resentful about it.

And resentment leads to bitterness. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you.

Bitterness leads to wrath, leads to anger, leads to slander. Bitterness is that thing where you have been wronged or think you've been wronged.

Maybe you have or haven't, but the effect is the same. And then judgment comes. You're angry.

You're wrathful against that person. You want something to happen to that person. That person needs to be disciplined.

That person needs to have a counselor rip him a new one. That needs to happen. And then to justify yourself before that person and others, you slander the other person.

You slander them. You say, that person did this and that, and that person did that. I didn't do anything wrong.

You're saying it's completely 100 % that person's own fault. Now, sometimes that's the case, but a lot of times it's not.

So this is Ephesians 4 .31. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with malice, ill intent for the other person.

But, verse 32, be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.

When you're working through these things, forgive as much as you can, as much as you're able, as Christ has forgiven you.

Don't let bitterness take root. The other ones will blossom. Okay? Hey, I'm out of time.

May the Lord bless you by His grace. We'll be back on here tomorrow, and I hope you have a great evening.

God bless everybody. Another program powered by The Truth Network.