July 12, 2017 Show with Marc Grimaldi on “Evil & Suffering in a Sovereign God’s World”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania It's iron sharpens iron a radio platform on which pastors

Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues facing the church and the world today

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Now, here's our host Host Chris Arnton Good afternoon

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet

Earth who are listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron Radio .com this is

Chris Arnton your host of iron sharpens iron wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this twelfth day of July 2017 and I am delighted to have today as my returning guest on iron sharpens iron radio a man who was

Until just a few years ago my pastor at Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Long Island located in Merrick, New York Before I relocated here to Pennsylvania and became a member of Grace Baptist Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania Much to the dismay of the leadership and congregation there

But it is my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens iron a pastor Mark J.

Grimaldi Hey, thank you. Chris. Always a pleasure. Appreciate it and in studio with me is my co -host the

Reverend buzz Taylor. Hello again, and If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question for pastor mark our email address is

Chris Arntz and at gmail .com chris a r n z n at gmail .com

on one of the most Highly debated and perplexing issues known to man

Probably since the dawn of time. It's the question of evil and suffering in a sovereign

God's world and Please if you write in a question, give us your at least your first name your city and state in your country of residence

But you may remain anonymous if it makes you feel more comfortable if this question involves a personal and private matter and obviously

Subject like evil and suffering in a sovereign God's world Automatically lends itself to the possibility of people having personal and private matters

They want to ask about but so we will grant your your request if that is the reason that you are

Desiring to remain anonymous, but if it's not a personal private matter Please at least give us your first name city and state and country of residence well, it's been a while since we've had you on the program pastor mark and Iron sharpens iron radio has reached as recently

Reached a point where every single day for the last several weeks We are getting contacted by new listeners that we've never heard from before.

So God is doing something A it seems like a dam has broken open and there is a flood of new listeners

Who are discovering and falling in love with this show and I'm thanking God for this new development

So therefore a lot of these people Will have no idea What grace reform

Baptist Church of Long Island is so why don't you let our listeners know about this congregation? Sure.

Yeah grace reform Baptist Church. We are a local church in Merrick on Long Island as you said and we would hold to the the five souls of the

Reformation of the Doctrines of grace as well and our confession of faith is the

London Baptist confession of faith 1689 and so we would hold dearly to the teachings that are really that are glued to the

Reformation And again, if the soul is faith alone Christ alone Grace alone the glory of God alone in scripture alone.

Those are our pillars that would hold us up So we are a reformed Baptist Church And that's if that would sum it up and I don't know if it was made official yet, but I last we spoke

I believe you were on the way to becoming a Member church in the reformed

Baptist Network. Did that ever take place? Yes. Yes. We are part of the reformed Baptist Network My co -pastor pastor

Doug went to the actual signing meeting So we're a part of that wonderful network and certainly would recommend anybody looking into that is really a blessed network of churches and being able to support pray for one another encourage one another especially in In trying to encourage one another with missions and evangelism and so on.

Yeah, people might hear that Name and automatically wrongly think you're talking about a radio or television network.

That is not the case No, no, no, no, not at all No, this is similar to an association idea, but a little less a little less formal in an association more geared specifically toward Supporting one another with with evangelism and missions and just trying to spread the gospel and put together

And if anybody wants to find out more information about the reformed Baptist Network, you can go to reformed

Baptist Network calm reformed Baptist Network calm and Of course,

I'm planning on announcing this later as well But for anybody interested in finding out more about grace reformed

Baptist Church of Long Island and Merrick, New York You can go to grace reformed Baptist Church calm grace reformed

Baptist Church calm well There have been things as you know a pastor mark

There have been books already written on the subject of evil and suffering in a sovereign

God's world There have been even books written by great men of faith from centuries past like Puritans and others

Why did you find a need to? Include a new a book on this very important subject.

Well, I think I'm a little bit smarter than all those guys I Wanted to a couple things that came to mind with putting together this book is what is

I wanted it to be something that was Quite short almost like a handbook in a sentence that this book is only about a hundred some pages and it's what it's a small frame

Something that people can kind of dip into and read through the different points that I make and try to use it as a just a

Helpful tool to to help them with some with dealing with some of these issues especially as people bring up questions or even the own

Their own concerns that they might have a lot of the other books that are out there certainly are just large volumes and would deal with With some of the individual topics that I have in this book

It would be a full volume could be easily committed to to one chapter So I tried to kind of make something that would be

Something short something somebody can sit down in a few readings and hopefully glean a lot clean enough that can help them come to grips with some of these things and see the blessing even in understanding the reality of God's sovereignty and And his he's not being the author of evil and so on and just making sense to that through Scripture Yeah, I want to urge

The pastors and deacons listening or anybody else Listening who is in a position of authority where you can order?

Books in bulk for your church. This is one of those times Where you'd want to order a case or more of evil and suffering in a sovereign

God's world because it's small It's reason very reasonably priced especially when ordering multiple copies and the subject

Is one that I am sure that every Christian Has no look not only

Thought about in their own minds, but I'm sure every Christian at some point in their lives If not many times will have conversations with others either inside or outside the

Christian faith Where this question is the very first thing that comes up Why is there evil and suffering in a sovereign

God's world or people will just say if they are a critic of Christianity They'll say if your

God is so good Why is there evil and suffering in this world? Sometimes they'll say that in a mocking fashion, but this is known as the theodicy, isn't it?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's it's it's really important Christian and I can remember you myself before I was saved in my in my

Teenage years when I was doing a lot of thinking and sitting there with my parents and some other members of the church that they were part of and I can remember just really debating with them and trying to show logically why

God must be the author of evil and and Just especially when when you believe in the reformed doctrines that we hold to about God being absolutely sovereign

Overall things you can see why that logic would seem to make sense, but there are several things I think with that Looking back now that I didn't consider

And I came to understand more and more as I've grown as a Christian and seen things in scripture

That have been very helpful to see how God can both be Both be the author of all things both be completely all sovereign over everything and yet at the same time

Not be the one who is the author of evil and that's where I really wanted to get to get into I got I get Into a lot of side issues as well that tap into this such as the accountability of man, you know fatalism

What about the issue why didn't God create Adam and Eve without the ability of sinning if he knew they were going to send beforehand

You know, what? What why did he go forward with it know those kinds of things I wrestled through a lot of that too in the book

All the way to even topic says what do you do with the the issue of a child who is a young girl?

Who is who is raped repeatedly and you know kidnapped and put to death and how does that happen on God's watch?

And especially a God who was all sovereign. How do you account for that? So I I kind of you know dabbling to all those kinds of things as well in this book

Well, you know, let's go through some of the words in The title of this book so we can have a definition for those of our listeners who may not can be completely familiar

With the terminology or perhaps they're familiar with it, but they have a a false definition of it

You have evil and suffering in a sovereign God's world now that word sovereign has been

Used even by those who disagree with us Who are theologically reformed?

They really don't consistent consistently and logically Use that term about God in its fullest sense, but we who are reformed

Take this definition of sovereign to its full measure when we are discussing a sovereign

God if you could Please explain what you mean by a sovereign God in the title of the book

Yeah, in fact in the in the first chapter I address the issue of God's sovereignty and it's a short chapter because one of the things

I do say in there is that there are a lot of Just great materials written on the sovereignty of God You know, you have

Lorraine Bettner and Arthur pink and we go off you scroll this Lorraine Bettner is always one of my favorite female authors

Sorry, but I do get into there and the way I would say first is it with inside the book is

God is all sovereign Right, just in case people may mistake that there's okay sovereign. He's he's he's in control, but maybe he relinquished

Some of his sovereignty, you know when one of the key people the ability to exercise free will and etc And those kind of things so I define sovereignty in the way

I understand it the way I see the scripture as God is the supreme ruler over all things and as such

He works all things out in accordance with his own unchangeable divine will and for his glory

Everything is he sovereignly? He's completely exercises sovereign care of everything He doesn't relinquish anything and in fact

If he did relinquish anything my argument in the book is that he would cease to be God and it would be it would be a real depressing reality if he did because there would be a lot of purposelessness and Things that would happen that are not that are not we have no

There's nothing in there in in our suffering or whatever might be that would have would serve a legitimate purpose

It would just be well God is kind of a loud man to to kind of you know Make those decisions and it just happened to go that way and so be it flip the coin

So I believe God is completely all sovereign over all things and that at the same time again as you work through the rest of The book

I get into how to how that drives with the idea of yet Evil still being able to exist and not being him not being the author of evil at the same time

Yeah, that's also a very controversial issue. In fact those who are outside of Reformed theology will very frequently accuse those who are

Calvinists or believers in sovereign grace that we are Making the claim that God is the author of evil it seems that when it comes to the disagreement amongst

Christians in regard to this very important and age -old topic

You have on the one hand Those who are theologically reformed who want to defend the biblical truth that God is all sovereign and those who are

Arminian or those outside of the Calvinistic faith

Will make the claim that or they will be in essence Making an attempt to defend

God's goodness and also man's responsibility and they will often say yes,

God is all good and the reason why there is evil in the world is because God does not wish to create robots when he has created humankind and Therefore the one thing that is required of humans in order for them not to be automatons or robots is that they have free will and therefore that is why we have evil in the world

That is very often the explanation I have heard from non reformed Christians as to this problem that we have with defending a an all -good

God in a Wicked very seriously wicked and evil world if you could just comment on that Yeah, yeah

In fact the first two chapters of the book and again when you when one of the things about going through the book that's helpful

Is that there's a necessary progression that that takes place as you work through each chapter So when I address one topic inevitably, they're going to be questions that are going to come to mind

But I seek to address them or going through the book working through everything logically and trying to explain things from a biblical standpoint

But the first two chapters the first one is God is all sovereign The second one is is that God is good.

And then the third chapter is evil exists And so generally what happens as you said as people tend to Sacrifice one of the other is the goodness of God or the sovereignty of God to try to Account for the reality of evil.

So you'll have as you said some and some in the report some in the extreme You know We're doing the reform faith very extreme

Would have no problem even saying that in some sense that God is connected the evil You know This is the author because that's the best thing for his glory and on so on And they would say things a little too far and then others as you said in the

Arminian faith would Would say no because that's that means that God can't be good And so he must have relinquished

Some of his sovereignty in some sense so that man could have like you said free will and that we were not just robots

Being controlled So I think I think it's important that we uphold both truths that are given very clearly in Scripture God is very clearly

All sovereign over all things and I have scriptures in there that that to talk about that and he's also

He cannot be anything but good in the fullest sense. He is the very definition of goodness and it's purest

Purest form and yet at the same time there is the existence of evil So the question is how do you get from a

God who is all sovereign who is all good? And if we could use these words in some sanctified sense is at some point in eternity past By himself without any created thing

How does evil come out of that? How does evil exist in that scenario without somehow?

So directly attaching it to God being the author of that and I think that's a big question and I do deal with that and in chapter three, especially

Great and the The balanced the biblically sound and Historically accurate

Calvinist or believer in the doctrines of sovereign grace a reformed theology He will always seek to use all the biblical data whether it involves

The sovereignty of God and the goodness of God and the responsibility of man but those of the extremes as you mentioned those who are either hyper

Calvinists or Those who are Arminian attend to exalt certain

Aspects or character traits of God or even just biblical texts at the expense of others at the expense of truth

They don't want to present the whole counsel of God because it somehow conflicts with their preconceived notions.

Am I right? Yeah, yeah The people don't like to live in a realm of tension, right and the reality is when you're dealing with a

God who is infinite Right, and we're not we're finite. We're tiny You know when you look at the wisdom of God even what we can see in a created world

Which is not even the the that's just the surface. So for you know, God's wisdom is beyond that It's beyond the heavens.

His greatness is beyond the heavens And we we try to logicize everything and we and we want to alleviate all the tensions and so what happens is people tend to Throw something of God's character under the bus something of his of what's spoken about his

His his essence is being in his characters, you know And so we need to be faithful to what the scriptures teach and we need to reason within those scriptures

We don't want to throw out logic logic is important but we want to make sure that we have a sanctified right sense of About us and humble sense about us as we as we process these things and be able to say what's true

Allow for the tension to exist and reason through that and I think like I said what I reason when I go to the book

I think if people read through it, I think they'll still see some things From a scriptural standpoint that will help alleviate that tension to an extent

Is it ever going to be fully gone on this side of heaven? Well, none of us are going to be fully God on this side or on the other side of heaven

So it is in that sense. We're not going to fully be able to understand everything anyway but I do think there's a way there are certain things that can give us a sense of peace and Encouragement in understanding

You know who God is and the reality of his of his goodness and so on and how that how these things can jive

There is a there is a way of reconciling these things biblically Enough to give us a sense of peace and yet humility and recognizing how great our

God is All right. I want to steal the thunder of some of our listeners who are writing in so I will begin to go to some of our listener questions

Let's see here we have a Jenny from Ben Salem, Pennsylvania who has two

Questions briefly explained to our listeners. What is entailed in God's sovereignty over his creation?

You really dealt with that already If you want to add to that you can her second question is often

God is accused of causing evil since he is the creator. Can you explain what is the reformed position on evil in relationship to God?

Yeah, what I would say is this and and Again, this this is what

I would give it is the scriptural, you know Understanding of what evil is and and just an understanding of who God is

I think part of the problem Chris is that when we when we think about evil I think we don't actually stop and think well, what is evil and when you look at scripture and I can again

I get into this especially going back to the beginning and When Adam and Eve were in the garden and the tree was there and God gave the command

You we have to begin by saying this that rule that Obviously and again, I'm using terms

I don't know how better else to say this but there was a time if I can use the word time not knowing that God is Outside of time but but there was a time when there was absolutely no evil and no possibility of evil and that one when

God was Completely alone right? No angelic beings. No, you know, no people created in his image nothing there just God Let's say and again,

I'm only way I can I can understand is to use to use temple terms And then at some point evil exists, so the question is well, what is evil and how does it come to exist?

I believe that when you look at scripture at least from the standpoint of of the Creation right because you have the angels when they fell as well and there's debate about that and I get into that too

But look at it from the standpoint of the creation how evil entered this world One thing you'll notice is that it's the moment that God gives

Adam right Adam the command to not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil And when he says that if you do that, you will surely die at the moment

God does that something important very important happens the potential for evil exists at that moment the potential not evil but the potential for it and the reason why it's the

Potential for evil exists because the moment God decides or when God creates any being that is less than God Right God doesn't create any first of all,

God doesn't create anything that's equal to him He can't do that. He wouldn't do that, right? that would be idolatry, but the moment God creates a reasonable creature who in some way is accountable to him and from a moral standpoint and He has expectations of that creature

The moment that he does that and gives that creature a command the potential for evil exists at that moment

So we can say God offers the potential for evil, but the evil itself doesn't exist until that creature

Disobeys God right and once that creature takes of the tree or once Satan does what he does in his rebelling

Evil exists. The reason why that's important is because God himself cannot be evil He cannot author of evil because evil itself

What is evil evil is is the very opposite of what God is It's ungodliness evil is defined by its very nature as being as being ungodliness as being the very is being contrary to God And so you can't have anything contrary to God or opposing to God when it's just God There has to be some ability and whatever

God creates In a lesser being that's responsible to God there has to be some ability in that creature to be able to To be responsible to God and to make a moral decision

And if they don't if they go in the wrong direction Then evil suddenly exists and that's what happened with Satan and that's what happened with with men

And so God doesn't create evil. He creates a situation and he creates beings

Where the potential of evil for evil can exist right can exist now. This does bring up more questions

I realized that and I get to them later on in the book to what in God not create that But you know people with you know with the potential to be able to be you know, so we can get into that later

But for the moment, I'm just want to say that as far as the actual existence of evil It only exists when you have a lesser being responsible to a higher being

And when you contradict that higher being in any sense when you violate his his

Commands his law when you when you're counter that that being that is when the existence of evil exists

And so evil by its very nature is is the opposite it is contra God And he cannot be the author of that which contradiction, you know what

I'm saying with that? Yes, I do and and in fact some of the confusion that exists amongst

Calvinists and Arminians when we have these discussions is because those who are outside of the

Reformed faith misunderstand at times what we mean by the will of God and You do have a chapter in your book that defines

God's decreed of will yes and the reality of evil because there are

There is I should say a separation between God's decreed of will and his prescribed will for instance.

He says Among the other commandments in the Decalogue that thou shalt not commit adultery now when two people do commit adultery that Sometimes in the mind of God alone, we may never know the reason that was

Something that was decreed before of the foundations of the world and It was it is against it violates at the same time his prescribed will because it violates one of his commandments

Yeah. Yeah. In fact, I have a section in there early on I thought to open that that door up and I get into more as the book progresses, but that's a very important point

Chris We have to understand to that. God has two wills and I know that sounds strange, but it has to be the case biblically

It's definitely confirmed God has a decreed will as you said and that's where he decrees all all things whatsoever will pass

Nothing will change that or violate that and he also has a revealed or a moral will or what I forgot what you had said

But there's another way of putting that Described will prescribed will yeah that which he is he reveals to us as his commands is what he desires and so on what he doesn't

And two examples that I give in Scripture that that and there's many it's all throughout Scripture but that really hit home with that are the examples of Joseph and of course the

Lord Jesus Christ himself and As I explain which I don't have to do here because I think we all know the story of Joseph and of course the

Lord Jesus Christ, I would hope we know about But when you look at the life of Joseph and what happened with his brothers

And how they sold them and wickedly sold them into slavery because of their jealousy And etc and you go on to the end when

Joseph reveals himself and forgives them He goes on to say hey, you know, it's it's after his father dies and they think that he's gonna now take vengeance on them

He says no, you know I'm who am I in the place of God and what God meant what you meant for evil

God meant for good and what Joseph was saying there is that the intentions of His brothers were wicked.

They had very sinful wicked motives. They were wrong But God had ordained through that wrong to accomplish salvation for for Israel because because they would be delivered from The the famine and be able to survive and so on and the same thing with Christ and being crucified in Acts the

Peter talks about how those how they how the Jews had wickedly put Christ to death and In doing so they were accomplishing the very will of God which through that evil and their evil intentions

God would accomplish salvation. And so I asked two questions in the book earlier on I say Was it the will of God for Joseph's brothers to sell him into slavery?

Was it the will of God for? The Jews to turn Christ over to be crucified and it's kind of a trick question because really the answer is yes and no it depends on what you're talking about from a a

Prescriptive format from from the revealed will of God from the moral will of God It was a very wrong and evil thing for them to do.

They have no credit to receive for that They didn't do anything good. It was wrong. They violated God's clear and revealed

Well, so it wasn't the will of God in that sense But from a decreed standpoint and God decreeing all things he used even that evil right to accomplish a greater good right the salvation of Israel in one case and Sinners who come to Christ and the other and so we see those two wills

In both of them at the same time two sides of the same coin But they're functioning together and that's one important It's important to understand that as you go through this this issue of understanding evil and suffering in the sovereign

God's world definitely to get that that understanding. Yes. Amen. In fact, I have never heard a

Non -reformed person Have any kind of real adequate answer to the text that I am about to read that I think really vividly demonstrates that Although whenever a person sins they are violating

God's prescribed will God does indeed? Decree at times these evil acts to occur 2nd

Samuel chapter 12 beginning in verse 11 This is the section where after David King David Commits adultery with Bathsheba and she is pregnant and he is very worried about the fact that everybody's gonna know that she was conceived the child outside of wedlock since her husband was on the battlefield a

Uriah the Hittite and They will likely assume it is is him.

So in order to in order to cover up this Adultery, he actually arranges for the murder of Uriah the

Hittite and when the Nathan the Prophet Challenges David on this and God is speaking through Nathan the

Prophet. He says beginning in verse 11 of 2nd Samuel 12 behold,

I Will raise up evil against you from your own house household. I even take your wives before your eyes and give them to your companion and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight indeed you did it secretly, but I Will do this thing before all

Israel and under the Sun? so there there is clear evidence that adulterous

Activity is going on as a chastisement to David Because they involve his own wife or his wives

I should say And it is something that God himself is decreeing to occur

Yeah, yeah In fact and that's fulfilled with Absalom right when he sleep when actually goes up on the roof

Right of David's palace and and and it's known not that everybody can see it visibly

But it's known to all of Israel was a means of Absalom taking control of the kingdom to show

That he was now going to be taken that control. He actually slept with David's concubines, right?

It's a Muslim lives and so I believe that's what that was fulfilled And I think in that sense again, like you said we see

God ordaining something now Let's step back one second. What Absalom did was evil.

Yes motives were wrong He was he had every evil he wasn't saying you know what God made this prophecy

I heard about it against my father and I'm going to fulfill that because I love God No, he had every wicked desire and intent in his heart to do wrong.

He had lustful thoughts He had jealousy of his father. He was an evil son and it was all wrong

And yet God had pronounced judgment on David and would use ready ordained. He had

Yeah, he had ordained to use that very means To be that would to be the case ought to be the way that David would be chastised for what

David had done with that Sheba so it's so the good thing isn't seeing those things. We've seen what we do see is that the evil that takes place itself is

Done by man and and it's it's it's the intentions of man to do that It's that the man is completely guilty and I get into that later on in the book to the idea of the accountability man

Who can hold man accountable that no man is very accountable what he does He wants to do everything you and I Chris have ever committed in our lives at any time and especially before we were saved

We'd be lying if we said we didn't want to do those things and we didn't desire that It wasn't our heart's desire, right?

And at the same time speak for yourself And one of the things

I seek to establish as well and this again is where you go through all the chapters and you get the Balance is that that being the case at the same time

God has no Delight in evil. He has no delight in it. He doesn't enjoy it.

He doesn't it's not like before he created He said you know what? I just would really want to see people slaughtered and killed and and raped and and I enjoy these things

He hates what's evil even though at the same time He ordains to use that for good and all these things that happen in the world

Even the most evil things and you look at the cross But what could be more evil than what happened with Christ on the cross when you look at the innocence of who

Christ was and what? Happened to him. It's there's no more evil of an event in one sense And yet it's also the greatest expression of God's love and grace

Through that cross and as the chapter at the end of the book called bring it all together because it is at the cross

That I think we can step back and appreciate these things and see yes. God is good.

He's all sovereign He is how are he is he ordains all things? But he is good and even all of the evil that takes place which we do out of our desires and our intents

And what she ordains? He uses all that To do good to reveal his glory and none of that is is saying that I'm a

God who? Because I'm infinite eternal. I have a right and I just enjoy seeing evil things

I believe what it says in Scripture that when God says To Israel, I do not delight in the death of the wicked but turn that you may be lived

He says it twice and one time it the way it said it's it's in a general way It's not just Israel.

There's a general sense when God says that he does not delight in the death of the wicked He has no joy in that and at the same time

He is glorified by it and he or he ordains it and he uses it to accomplish his bigger his broader will

So all these things come together in the same package again do our brains at times, you know

We kind of get overwhelmed by it something is there some tension there? Yeah, but I do think when you look at the whole picture, which

I try to get in this short little book I think it's very helpful and very encouraging to see that in even the worst case picture a little girl getting raped a little child

Being abducted raped and murdered buried alive, which happens with you know with these stories these things happen even in that situation

Knowing God ordained that and that there is a good purpose even in that I think this discomfort that can be found even that kind of situation as horrible as that is

Yeah, I want to pick up on that when I return and also obviously take some of our listener questions By the way,

Jenny and Ben Salem, Pennsylvania You have won a free copy of evil and suffering in God's sovereign or should

I say a sovereign God's world? Evil and suffering in a sovereign God's world by our guest mark

Jake Romaldi Please make sure you give us your full mailing address so we can have that shipped out to you as soon as possible by our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service CVBBS .com

CV for Cumberland Valley BBS for Bible Book Service dot -com and keep your eye out in the mail for a package from CVBBS .com

That should arrive God willing in a week or so Thank you for listening to the program and keep spreading the word in Ben Salem, Pennsylvania And beyond and we are going to be right back

God willing with Mark Romaldi and more of our discussion on evil and suffering in a sovereign

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That's battery depot calm Hi, I'm pastor

Bill Shishko inviting you to tune in to a visit to the pastor's study every Saturday from 12 noon to 1 p .m

Eastern Time on WLIE radio www .wlie540am .com

We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you and we invite you to visit the pastor's study by calling in with your questions

Our time will be lively useful and I assure you never dull Join us this Saturday at 12 noon

Eastern Time for a visit to the pastor's study because everyone needs a pastor. Welcome back

This is Chris Arns and if he just tuned us in our guest today for the full two hours with about 90 minutes to go is

Mark Grimaldi a pastor at Grace Reform Baptist Church of Long Island in Merrick, New York alongside

Pastor Doug Totter and He is addressing the theme evil and suffering in a sovereign

God's world If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com

chrisarnsen at gmail .com And please give us your first name city and state and country of residence

If you live outside the USA one thing that I wanted to have you clarify or make crystal clear

I know that you mentioned it already But lest anyone foolishly Think that they are not guilty of Sin and will not reap the the horrible repercussions of that Just because of the fact that God is sovereign and has decreed it to occur

They better really think again and read more of the scripture that they should have In front of them because of the fact that even in Romans 9 we have

Paul the Apostles Automatically Or should I say knowing that an automatic response?

in that area would come from someone who is either disagreeing or not understanding

Evil and suffering and sin and in a sovereign God's world because as Paul says you will say well

How can he find fault because who can resist his will? so so obviously this is not something that People should entertain the idea that just because they are a part of God's preordained plan does not mean they are not themselves

Responsible and guilty of their own sins. Oh, yeah You know, you don't want to be in the shoes of a person who was gonna say, you know what?

I just committed adultery, but you know what it was God's will so so it's okay that that is foolish foolish thinking

That just will incur greater judgment if it is no repentance. We are very responsible

Again, there's a section in my book that talks about the accountability of man We are very much accountable and responsible for our actions.

We want to do them. We desire to do them They come from our own hearts our own desires our own fallen nature

And so we are very much responsible and I use the example and it's tons as you know throughout scripture

Chris, but I picked one and I use the example of Sennacherib king of Assyria in Isaiah 37 verses 26 to 29

God actually speaks to Sennacherib because God had used the king of Assyria to conquer many nations at the time and he was using him as a vehicle of judgment for the wickedness of the nations and even used them to To exile the northern kingdom of Israel and so they were they were used in a very mighty way by God to bring judgment

But Sennacherib wasn't who didn't didn't wasn't seeing things that way. He had no Concern about the will of God in his mind

It was what he did and look at how powerful I am and similar to what happened at the Knesset And so God had said and I'll just read the scripture here

I said, did you not hear long ago how I made it from ancient times that I formed it now?

I have brought it to pass that you should be for crushing fortified cities into heaps of ruins

Therefore their inhabitants had little power. They were dismayed and confounded They were at the grass of the field and the green herb as the grass on the housetops and grain blighted before it is grown

But I know your dwelling place You're going out and you're coming in and you'll rage against me because your rage against me and your tumult have come up to my ears

Therefore I will put my hook in your nose and my bridle in your lips and I will turn you back by the way

Which you can't so Sennacherib was was boasting. He was ready to go after Jerusalem You know the whole story with Hezekiah and bring in the prayer before God and he was boasting and everything

He was doing and God said I decreed it long ago I'd decreed it from the past that you were going to be used for this purpose

But you think it's you and now your time is up your numbers being called And so anybody who's foolish enough to to look at God's sovereignty

And his decreed of will and to use that as a means of justifying their sin Is not that's not gonna fly in God's righteous court of law.

That's that's a real real dangerous place to go Amen and we have

RJ in White Plains, New York who says that I have seen a Christian play that depicts

Judas as being a fall guy or a scapegoat in the plan and Plot to have

Christ crucified They are trying to protect the fact that God is not guilty of Causing people to sin at the same time making it clear that he was in control of the events that took place that led to the

Crucifixion of Christ that was necessary for the atonement of sinners, but this is a ridiculous approach

Is it not to make Judas or anyone else an unwilling pawn in the events that God decrees when they involve sin?

Yeah, it's it's it's insane to to assume that in fact when you look again at Judas He was again.

He was if you look at his character. He was pilfering from the money box He was deceptive the whole way through Certainly was never converted.

It wasn't God taking taking out a locket and waving it before his eyes and saying, okay

Let me let me hypnotize him and make him do what I want him to do in that sense Even though God of course ordained it and used that to accomplish the greatest good of all

But Judas very much so of his own wicked intentions had succumbed to the temptation of the devil

And one of the money and he went and he did what he did and says in Scripture That it would have been better if he were never born

So he certainly is not someone to look to as a hero in any sense of someone who did a favor

Again, what he meant for evil God used to accomplish the greatest good Yeah, and Jesus even called him a devil and the scriptures say that a devil entered him so It's clear that he was not just some unwilling dupe

No, no, like I said, he was already along the way. He was covetous. He was pilfering from the money box

There was a lot of deception going on there We don't know all the details, but there's indication that he was already stealing and he it's even in that Even in in what

Judas wound up doing we see how the process of hardening takes place And in people right when you give when you give it over to sin in some form as you continue on down that road

There's a hardening process that takes place and some and God will give you over to it and you see that with Judas As well as God accomplishing his will ordaining all things all those things at the same time

Judas reaping what he was sowing all along and to the point where he's we completely He was responsible for being given over to Satan He didn't just it wasn't that he was as innocent good guy

And he was trying to do the right thing all along and really believed Christ and following him and and he was you know

He was an upstanding man and all of a sudden Satan just you know, you know jumped inside of him No, he was he had it was his own guilt his own.

He made himself susceptible even by his own sin all along the way yeah, and The fact that Jesus said that it would be better for him if he was never born that settles the question on whether or not

Judas went to heaven or hell. I was I was actually taken aback I was at a Bible study a number of years ago and the man leading the study seemed to be very credible and Wise and biblically sound in many ways

But he would not answer the question as to whether or not Judas went to heaven or hell because he said that's speculation

And I raised my hand and I said how is it speculation Jesus said that it was better It would have been better for him never to have been born that settles the issue where he is

Generally doesn't speak about someone who's going to heaven I mean even Joel Osteen's your best life now isn't gonna fly with that one, you know

It's I mean when you look what Peter says to I've heard that to Chris I've seen somebody at one point I don't through an email or something that said that they believe

Judas, you know could have been saved and all that The fact that he was hung he hung himself Again, it's presented as the form of someone who's cursed

Hanging from the tree in that sense and then even what Peter says that when they when they're in an axe

When they're looking to replace Judas they say, but he uses the he quotes the scripture That basically says that he had gone to his own place

Judas the indication is there that he very much was condemned Better to have not been born.

So I mean there are I'm very slow to say somebody is is in hell And looking at this life because I know that there are people who you know by God's grace at the last minute

But when in scripture when you see something like that that clear we have a right to say

Very much. So and to use that example of someone who was that close to Christ and yet wound up in eternal condemnation

I'm going to Take an early break here. So I don't interrupt you in mid -sentence and what

I'm doing is I'm forwarding a rather lengthy question from Joe in Slovenia and so this way during the station break, you can have plenty of time to look over his lengthy question and Respond to it as best as you can when we return from the break

So if anybody else would like to join us our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Please give us your first name your city and state and your country of residence

If you live outside of the USA, and please only remain anonymous if it Is about a personal private matter

I will read now the question that I forwarded to you out loud and then you can respond when we get back

Joe in Slovenia says dear brother Chris my question regards the philosophical necessity of evil if God chooses to create a material universe for the purpose of displaying his

Inter -trinitarian goodness majesty holiness and glory does that not inherently necessitate that he creates within the universe?

The ability of a free moral agent to rebel against him and introduce evil and all its horrible

Consequences in order for us to be able to actually appreciate all the goodness. That is

God Do we not have to have his antithesis to contrast him with?

Ergo Satan and the evil which he introduced into God's perfect creation to his glory

Thank you for sharpening us today Sharpening with us by dealing

Comprehensively in the most difficult Topics of our faith. Okay. That was Joe in Slovenia and you can respond when we come back

From the break and we look forward to hearing from more of you And your questions for Mark Ramolli on The problem of evil when we return from this break, so don't go away.

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forward slash iron sharpens today Hi, I'm pastor

Bill Shishko inviting you to tune in to a visit to the pastor's study every Saturday from 12 noon to 1 p .m

Eastern Time on Wlie radio www .wlie 540 a .m.

Dot -com We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you and we invite you to visit the pastor's study by calling in with your questions

Our time will be lively Useful and I assure you never dull join us this Saturday at 12 noon

Eastern Time for a visit to the pastor's study because Everyone needs a pass welcome back

This is Chris Arns in your host of iron sharpens iron radio if you just tuned us in our guest today for the full two hours with about an hour to go is

Mark Romaldi one of the pastors at grace reform Baptist Church of Long Island, New York in Merrick We are addressing his book evil and suffering in a sovereign

God's world If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is Chris Arnson at gmail .com

Chris Arnson at gmail .com And please give us at least your first name your city and state in your country of residence if you live outside of the

USA You may remain anonymous if it's about a personal and private matter and before I return to our discussion

I have some special announcements important announcements by some of our Sponsors the word of truth

Church in Farmingville, Long Island New York is pleased to announce that the word of truth

Bible Institute Will be offering two free classes this summer the book of Romans and Old Testament survey

The Roman study will meet on July 12th. That's tonight July 19th and July 26th

From 7 to 9 p .m. And the Old Testament survey will meet the week of July 17th through the 21st from 7 to 9 p .m.

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At the word of truth Church 1055 Portion Road in Farmingville, Long Island, New York Registered registration is required by calling

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Even though the Romans class has already started new students are still welcome. The church website is

Wot church .com that's WOT for a word of truth church .com

WOT church .com and then coming up in August next month from the 3rd through the 5th of August Fellowship conference

New England is being held at my co -host Reverend Buzz Taylor's old stomping grounds in Portland, Maine at the

Deering Center Community Church on 4 Brentwood Street in Portland and the speakers include

Pastor Don Curran of Don Curran Ministries and also HeartCry Missionary Society the organization founded by Paul Washer my friend

Pastor Mac Tomlinson Who is an author and pastor at Providence Chapel in Denton, Texas?

Pastor Jesse Barrington of Grace Life Church in Dallas, Texas and Pastor Nate Pickowitz Who's the author of reviving

New England a book that we addressed with Pastor Nate on this program? And he is the pastor of Harvest Bible Church in Gilmanton Ironworks, New Hampshire If you'd like to attend that conference go to fellowship conference

New England comm Fellowship conference New England comm and then following that November 17th through the 18th in Quaker Town, Pennsylvania The Alliance of confessing evangelicals is sponsoring the

Quaker Town conference on reform theology at the Grace Bible Fellowship Church in Quaker Town, Pennsylvania Featuring guests such as Kent Hughes Peter Jones Tom Nettles Dennis Cahill and Scott Oliphant.

The theme is for still our ancient foe Obviously a reference to Satan from the classic hymn by Martin Luther a mighty fortress

If you'd like to register at that for that conference go to Alliance net org Alliance net org click on events and then click on Quaker Town conference on reform theology

And then we have the g3 conference returning to Atlanta, Georgia January 17th through the 20th on the theme knowing

God a biblical understanding of discipleship January 17th is an exclusive event for Spanish speaking

Christians and or anyone that's Spanish speaking individual and From the 18th through the 20th.

We have the conference in English Featuring Paul Washer Steven Lawson Votie Balcom HB Charles jr

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For more details, please always mention to them that you heard about their conferences and special events on iron sharpens iron radio

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And once again the the email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

And that is also the email address to ask a question of our guest Pastor Mark Romaldi of Grace Reform Baptist Church of Long Island, New York in Merrick and Pastor Mark the question the question that was asked by our listener

Joe in Slovenia before we went to the break I'm going to abbreviate it this time in summary

Joe in Slovenia says According to God's inter

Trinitarian goodness majesty holiness and glory Does that not inherently?

necessitate that he create within the universe the ability of a free moral agent to rebel against him and introduce evil and all its horrible consequences and if you could

Answer that question to the best of your ability. Yeah, I mean, I think what he's saying I think there's this truth a lot of truth to what he's saying there.

I don't know that I would say that it did he Wouldn't want to obligate God in that sense It seems like somebody says there's a little bit more of a little stronger than I might say that I think he

I think what He's saying is a valid point and I would I would come in that direction though Where I would come

I would say something very similar to that and say it a little differently and just stay within the confines of What's clearly taught in Scripture?

And up in my in the book real quick. I'll just this will help answer that question, too

In chapter 4 after having dealt with the the reality of evil existing in an all -sovereign God's world

God not being the author of evil Dealing with issues related to God's decree to will I get into this in this section?

God's decree to will in the reality of evil real bringing those two facts together And how do we how do we bring those things together?

How can they be reconciled the might of What's what's gone over what I've gone over earlier in the book and and I preface that that chapter

Or I begin that chapter by talking about what what I stated before that God doesn't take any delight in evil or death or suffering

It's not something that he has enjoyment in and so on and I can I quote from Ezekiel and in there as well we went over before and then

I get into Two questions in the book following that that deal with that address this issue

One is why then ordain a creation that might fall so I just asked that question first putting in the form of a

Possibility why that ordain a creation that might fall and in that particular section I deal with Just the the design of God With the will of God to design different types of creatures different quality of creatures right animal types

Obviously there's angelic beings And then human beings created his image and just the the glory in that in the different types of creatures and one

Some being morally responsible Some with the animals having animal instincts and etc not having the same moral responsibility that we have

Not being created in God's image and just the beauty and glory in that and God But then I come to the more important question is why then ordain a creation that will fall so not just that might fall

But that will fall and and it gets into a little bit what with what our brother was saying there

And when you look at Scripture, what's very clear? Is that the the ultimate end for all things and we would know this

Chris is especially as being those who were formed And following the principles of the Reformation is the ultimate end of all things is

God God being glorified right? It's his glory Why does he create anything? What does he do anything?

It's for his glory. It's not that God is You know that the the Trinity is at some point again, we're talking human terms here lonely and saying, you know

We need something to entertain us. Let's change the channel Let's create something and try to get something that can help fulfill us in some way that that's that's nothing at all about why

God creates God has an intent and purpose in creating and It doesn't benefit him in any way in the sense that he lacks anything

And so when he does create he has a purpose and his purpose in creating is to reveal his own glory

It's not to benefit himself, but to be glorified in that and he he is glorified when you look at Scripture in revealing himself in revealing

Things about himself to his angelic creatures to those who he creates to lesser beings

He enjoys revealing things about him that are not presently perhaps known And when you look at the question about why ordain a creation that will fall one thing that comes out of a fallen creation and and this again in some way join joins hands to what our brother said in the email is

Is that God's grace and mercy are revealed in a profound way, right?

You don't you don't understand or comprehend whether an angel or any kind of being

The reality of God's grace and his mercy if there is no fall

Right if there is no sin if there is no evil right in that sense, there is no

Comprehending there's no comprehension of any of that part that if I can again divide God the parts which is not scriptural but that portion of God Let's say if I can word it carefully that that is is has a gracious and merciful character is revealed where there is

The presence of evil the presence of sin the presence of a fall And also God's justice in a sense of dealing with with wicked and exposing with wickedness and exposing his righteousness

And his holiness and this goes in line with what our brother said even as goodness All those things come out in the context of a fallen world

And so when we think about why then coordinate a creation that will fall you get into Ephesians chapter 3

That he does all things to glorify himself second Thessalonians 1 10 and then especially

Romans 9 21 and 24 Where Paul's writing again? He's writing here with him within the context of a world world that has fallen but still what

Paul says here is very revealing Says here does not the Potter have power over the clay from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor

What if God wanting to show his wrath and to make his power known and Do it with much long -suffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction so one reason why

God endorsed the the wickedness of man and allows it to continue and Has a world where there are there are creatures who are fallen and who remain in that condition if he's going to reveal his power and his justice and bring judgment upon them according to the

The measure of their sin and then it goes on to say as well though And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy

Which he had prepared beforehand for glory even us when we called not of the Gentiles the Jews only but also the

Gentiles And so God has this determined desire to reveal as well His mercy and his grace to those who he chooses out of this complete grace

To redeem to redeem out of this sin we we are worthy of condemnation with everyone else

We deserve it The only difference between us and anyone condemned ultimately if it's the grace of God It's nothing to do with us

Anything that we do or any good in us inherently in us and so God chooses to reveal his his gracious character

His character of mercy and grace this part of God that is desirous to to forgive and to show compassion

To sinners is revealed in a fallen world and a very powerful way to see that throughout

Scripture as well that God has that desire to expose to reveal himself to show and his angelic being see that and they fall down in worship certainly

We the redeemed see that and fall down in worship and it glorifies God again. He doesn't need it

He doesn't depend upon it. It's nothing that it that he feeds on in that sense, but he's glorified in Revealing who he is and so that would

I think that would fall in line with some of what our brother was saying in that question About showing his goodness and etc Well, thank you

Joe in Slovenia and thank you also for providing an American address Where your daughter lives in Georgia so that Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service can ship that out to you

More affordably it can ship I should say the book that you've just won Out to you more affordably and that's evil and suffering in a sovereign

God's world by our guest Mark J. Grimaldi So have your daughter in Georgia keep an eye out in the mail for this

Book, which is being given out compliments of our friends at Redemption Press and Also compliments of our friends at the

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service CV for Cumberland Valley BBS for Bible book service comm

CV bbs .com and we thank Todd and Patty Jennings for their faithful support of iron sharpens iron radio

I also want to give a plug to Redemption Press. Their website is redemption

Redemption -press .com That's redemption -press .com

Let's see we have Another overseas listener. We have

Murray in Kinross, Scotland I understand that God made man in his image for knowing that man would commit evil as this would serve his divine purpose

But how do we reconcile this view with the thought in Genesis chapter 6 verse 6

That the Lord was sorry That he made man on the earth and he was grieved in his heart obviously a pastor mark you and I know that we are no strangers to the fact that the

Reformed Baptist world is in midst a Conflict over the emotions of God and whether or not they are always anthropomorphism morphism but anyway interesting

Question a very good question by Mary Yeah, excellent question and that it that does get down to the question to the issues that have divided an entire

Association as you said Chris and certainly there there are different ways that people would understand that text

I Believe you know again coming from the side of you that would say that there is a real a

Emotional sense to God not enough in a physical sense that we think of emotions We've got to be careful there not uncontrollable, you know emotions that just go up and down But but God the affections and emotions that are there

There's a real sense as I said When we and this is where part of it

This is where the court the the issue of you know Running back for cover under Proverbs 3 5 & 6 comes into play as well

I've been thinking about this, you know that we need to trust God with all our hearts We not only on our own understanding acknowledge in moral ways.

You'll direct our paths. There are secret things that belong to God We don't in other words We don't understand all these things fully none of us do we want to be careful and I do say that in the book as Well, but that being said

I believe as you look at the scriptures As I said, there's a real a real genuine sense in which

God despises and hates evil He does not delight in it. He has no joy in it.

He has a real hatred of it And at the same time there's a real compassionate side of God Even toward sinners and in the sense doesn't necessarily mean that it's leading everyone to be saved

We know that but a compassion in the sense that he's not he doesn't rejoice

In the death of the wicked and I think we see that and again I know my other brothers on the inner reformed circles that disagree with me would say this was just the humanity of Christ But I believe it's a reflection of the divine nature as well in Christ.

We do see that with Christ In his compassion even his weeping, you know over over Jerusalem I don't the people of Jerusalem and the judgment that was to come again

God ordained all things We know that but at the same time there's a there's something there and in the reality of God's heart

If I can use that term in some sanctified sense where he does legitimately have a sense of Concern or compassion toward toward what's going on and you know and doesn't mean to delight in that and I think in Genesis 6

I do think there's some anthropomorphic language there as well Obviously God is not

It's not without knowledge of what took place there and you know He does he it's not that he's not aware of that that would happen and what was going to happen and so on But he does convey to us in a sense of in language that we can understand that we can appreciate and identify with how he views the condition of mankind and And so it comes out in the sense of tears in the sense of you know, you know

I regret what I've done. I regret in creating you You know, I regret in making mankind when

I when I see this evil God really Is is disheartened in a sense by the evil of the world at the same time?

Even though he's utilizing that very evil to accomplish again the whole thing is spilling out into an ocean that's going to accomplish his perfect will and be glorified the evil itself and the

Intentions of those who are committing the evil acts which which again belong to them it in a sense

Greece God Again, put that in in a sanctified sense. He doesn't have feelings the way we do

He doesn't have you know But but there's I think there's a reality that is what I'm saying Chris and again again there are people who disagree with me

But I also do think there's some anthropomorphic language there as well in seeking to identify with us

But I think everything that God does in scripture is anthropomorphic Right, I mean it for God being infinite to communicate with us in a language with words and letters is anthropomorphic in a sense

So everything in one sense is anthropomorphic But there's a reality. I think there's a reality to that as well.

And at the same time Again it comes back to God's the creative will and his revealed will he hates sin.

He doesn't approve of it It's it's it's unjust injustice is something that creates him in that sense

And at the same time he's ordaining all of that For good purposes to glorify himself to exalt

Christ and his you know, his grace and mercy. I hope that's helpful Yes, yes,

I'm sure it was and the scriptures tell us that God does not delight in the destruction or the death of the wicked and yet He kills the wicked, you know, right?

He's doing something that he does not delight in and you know, so you have these things going on at the same time You know

Chris, let me just cut one second and you saying that just real quick so I don't forget this thought Maybe in some small way we can appreciate

We can appreciate what you just said in this illustration if you remember back when

Saddam Hussein Was was caught and before he was tried by he was tried by his own people

They had to publicize the trials and ultimately he was hung for his crimes There's a real sense in which you can see that and even see the pictures and see what's going on and grieve for that man and Seeing a life taken and seeing this the sorry condition of this man and what happened to him and at the same time

There's a real sense in which you're saying justice was done It was right that needed to take place and it was proper and it should have been done

And so that it's not like you're saying justice should be done and we're and we have joy over someone dying

Like we'd like to see people killed and and and that's the end and that's how they wind up and they've destroyed others in their

Own life. There's nothing joyful in that for us But at the same time there's a sense in which you say yeah, that's justice that needs to be done and it may be that in some small way

Patrol, you know project that into the infinite God There's a sense in which

God is glorified very much So in in his righteousness and his justice and in destroying the wicked

But at the same time there's a sense in which it's not a joyful thing To see ruin and destruction, you know, and so on and maybe in some small way that can picture it

Yeah, in fact it I think it's even more vividly pictured with the torturous murder of Muammar Qaddafi Now we could argue or debate or disagree amongst

Christians as to whether those military Our military involvement with Saddam Hussein and other things like that are necessary or even a good thing because of the fact that when you topple a

Islamic leader who is only a nominal Muslim and they're replaced with somebody that is

Bringing about Sharia law and making it even more difficult for Christians as missionaries to exist

But at the same time it was still justice. I mean these men did not deserve to live And and Muammar Qaddafi when you're watching him being beaten and then prying up for mercy

It's hard for me to sit there laughing or taking a an extreme joy in that Even though and there would be a problem with you

Chris if you did that and there are people who will do that Maybe they just do it amongst friends and you know, they have beers in their hands

I believe Hillary Clinton was laughing when it was going on as far as the news Yeah, and that's that I just I think that that's that's certainly evidence of an ungodly spirit in Hillary Clinton's case

Obvious, but but even for a Christian certainly we should that should never be something that we could see as a joyful thing.

Yeah I'm going to go to our final break and I already forwarded you an email from Gordy in Mechanicsburg and I forwarded it to you not because it's a lengthy question, but it may take you some time to contemplate his question

Even though it's a brief question Gordy in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania says dear pastor mark given your close proximity to Manhattan What was the most common question you encountered in the aftermath of the

September 11th? 2001 World Trade Center tragedy and what was your response?

I thought I'd give you a little bit of time to contemplate that important question as we take our final break right now

If anybody would like to join us our email address is Chris Arnsin at gmail .com Chris Arnsin at gmail .com.

Don't go away We'll be right back with the conclusion of our program with Mark Romaldi on evil and suffering in a sovereign

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.com www .wlie540am .com Welcome back, this is Chris. Arnson if you just tuned us in our guest today for the last 90 minutes in the next half hour to come has been and will be

Mark Ramallee a pastor at Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Long Island, New York in Merrick and We are discussing his book evil and suffering in a sovereign

God's world. If you'd like to join us, I would do it now before we run out of time. If you have a question for Mark Ramolli, our email is

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

And Gordy in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania, before the break, asks you, Dear Pastor Mark, given your close proximity to Manhattan, what was the most common question you encountered in the aftermath of September 11, 2001, at the

World Trade Center tragedy, and what was your response? And I'm starting to wonder, as my mind goes back to that time, were you even a

Christian at that time, Mark? Yeah, yeah, I was, Chris. In fact, I was, I'll never forget it, because I was actually the church janitor at the time, and I was in the back of the church cleaning up, and when

I heard something on the news about the first tower and all that, and then I wound up going back home, so I'll never forget that. So you were already doing the role of a pastor in most churches.

It doesn't get any cleaner than that, cleaning toilets. Well, yeah, if you could answer

Gordy's question. Yeah, yeah, that's a good question. You know, it's interesting, the way when that had happened, you had kind of two different responses that were going on, and I think there were some extremes there.

You had, you know, of course, Jerry Falwell and those kinds of people were saying certain things, and you know, one response that people gave, you know, where was

God on September 11th, you know, and then you had people would say, oh, he was in the cockpit, you know, in God's judgment, you know, and I thought that was kind of an insensitive way to address it, to go to say it like that, and then they'd get other people who were more, you know, just would try to act as if God had no part in it, and you know,

God couldn't do anything to prevent it, it was manual and so on, etc., etc., and so both of those positions, obviously,

I thought weren't helpful and would do more damage than good, and the way that I would have answered that kind of question, which was some of the questions that came up were, you know, where was

God? Sadly, in New York State, there wasn't as much, even what happened right here, of those kinds of questions going around, because people in New York, you know, by and large, most of them are rebelling against Gnostics, or they have a shallow understanding of God, if any, or in that sense, in general, the general atmosphere here is very poor from a religious standpoint, from a

Christian standpoint, and so on, but when that question was asked, what I had done, and somebody preached a message at the point, it might have been

Pastor Rich Gospel, actually, that I thought was very helpful in addressing that situation, and it was from Luke's Gospel, Chapter 13, when the

Lord Jesus had spoken about the Tower of Siloam that had fallen down, and it fell onto those people, and they were killed, and Jesus says, hey, you know, don't think that because they died that they were worse sinners than anybody else, but you need to repent, or you'll likewise will perish.

There was that understanding, oftentimes, we see that in Scripture, with Job as well, where it's like, okay, if something bad happens to someone, well, they must have been the real bad guys, and so that's a dangerous way of thinking, and Jesus points that out there as well, and one of the things

I tried to say is, look, it's not that there were people who were in those towers who were Christian, godly

Christian people, there were people who were unsaved, there were all kinds of people in those towers, and I don't know, you know, many of them,

I don't know, I didn't know, and then for one person, it could have been, you know, God's time to bring them home, the glory of whatever age you were, and for others, it could have been a form of judgment, and so on, and there's different means, but I tried to use the message, though, to put it to the heart of those who

I would be speaking to, so we went around and talked about, we're addressing, I think, believe it or not, one of the greatest questions that was asked, or that was, that came about, was through the slogan,

God bless America, right, everybody kept saying, God bless America, you know, these colors don't run, God bless America, and so the way

I had addressed it was by asking the question, should God bless America, and actually put together a track for that at the time, and just went over, you know, our country, and where we were, and how far we've regressed, and taught, you know, that the shields of the earth belong to God, and when we see these things happening, you know, without judging that the individuals who were killed, because there were people who were

Christian and not, and that's the reality, looking at the overall picture of our nation, and seeing is there some message that we can take from this, from the

Lord, should we not examine ourselves in the light of what happened with those towers, and the fact that we would penetrate in that way, having been such a great nation for so long, and just addressing that, you know, what kind of a nation does

God bless, and defining that, looking at the Beatitudes, getting into the gospel, so that was kind of more the direction that I went into, certainly seeing it as God's sovereignty, very much not afraid to proclaim that, again, not casting judgment on those who were killed, because if you're

Christian or not, then it's not an issue of who's better or who's not, but more pointing the finger to those who are still living, and saying like Jesus said, look, don't look at them as if they're worse or not, you know, the question is, where do you stand today?

What does this tell us about our nation? What are some of the signs or things we should look for to see this nation change for the better in light of what we've seen happen?

So I think that's kind of the way I went with that, Chris. Yes, and I remember Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries preached a sermon, or wrote an article, either one,

I can't remember specifically right now, but it was three days after 9 -11, and his theme was,

God Bless America with Repentance. Yes, that was excellent, very, very, I remember that,

Chris, and that's always stuck with me, definitely, you're right. And one of the things that really disturbed me, while I was working, as you may remember, at WMCA Radio, and at that time they were in East Rutherford, New Jersey, and they had a opportunity for pastors all over the tri -state area to record their own words of encouragement, or their words of response to what happened during this tragedy, and although there were some really good ones, especially because there were some that I got on the air through pastors that I know, there were some ones that made the hair on the back of my neck stand up.

You had pastors saying, you're gonna hear people saying that God had something to do with this, that's just heresy, that's nonsense,

God had nothing to do with this. I'm like, really? So did Satan overpower

God, or did the evil will of these Islamic terrorists somehow thwart

God's perfect plan? What are you talking about? He had nothing to do with it. In fact, you even have some who try to take a middle road, and I was wondering what your response is, because I'm not really happy with this either, because I even heard some folks that claim to be believers in God's sovereignty really try to soften

God's sovereignty over this event, or any other event this horrific, by saying

God allowed it to happen. It's almost as if God's just sitting there on his throne watching, and he goes,

I'm gonna let this one pass, it's gonna go through, I'm not gonna do anything to stop it, but it's more than God just sitting there allowing things to happen, isn't it?

Yeah, yeah, Chris, that's the, you're right, it is kind of a, there's a sense in which they're trying, in their own minds, trying to save face for God, in a sense, by saying that, that he allowed it, you know, that he wouldn't, you know, be connected in any way to something so cruel, and I think that, yeah,

I agree with you, I think that that's not accurate at all, you know, we, what we have to do is get into the idea of, you know, that not just simply

God allowed it, but he ordained it, and that there were, again, it comes back down to that there were, the people who had committed the heinous acts were very evil and wicked, there's no credit for them when they died, you know, certainly didn't get their virgins, that's for sure, and they, you know, they stood before God, and God was very angry with them, and justly angry with them for what they did, and at the same time,

God ordained that, and there's a greater purpose for that, for what God had done with that, and in some ways, it could be a greater judgment for our nation, or maybe it led some to repentance, too.

I know there was a woman, by the way, this was encouraging, that I met recently over at the, an abortion clinic, she was outside protesting, you know, trying to preach the gospel to people to repent and not to kill their babies and etc.,

and she gave me a testimony, and she was actually saved, she was converted through that experience, she was in the towers, she was, in fact, in one of the pictures that were in the newspaper covered with dust, one of the women covered with dust, and she was saved through that, that's what the

Lord used to save her, so I mean, there's one, there's one indication, one dot on the map of this big picture of what

God's doing that we see accomplished, even through such a heinous event, and so, no, I can't just say he allowed it, again,

I wouldn't be, I wouldn't be insensitive enough to say, oh, well, he was in the cockpit, and use that kind of language, but at the same time, the other, the other saying that he allowed it, or he, you know, he couldn't do anything about it, you know, to me,

Chris, there's, in one sense, there's nothing worse, and I get, I get into this toward the later part of the book, I talk about,

I give a chapter called, you know, The Alternative, and I say, well, let's, for a moment, let's, let's spend a little time talking about what it would be like if God were not all -sovereign, if this were not the case, just in case there's any sense of people still saying, well,

I'm not happy about this, and I get into some of those things, and I go through biblical history, and I address things, and I say, you know, there's nothing worse to me than to think for a moment that any of these events are purposeless, are not, are not in some way intended by God to accomplish a greater purpose, even the slightest, you know, bit of evil, even the smallest thing that we might think of suffering, a broken finger, whatever it is, to me,

Romans 8, 28, 29, you know, when it talks about all things working together for good for the Christian, it's encouraging to know that every single detail in my life, even all responsible, accountable, that I know there's a purpose in this.

There's a purpose in why this is the way this, there's a purpose in why this person suffered, there's a purpose in why these children are starving to death in certain countries or whatever it might be.

If you tell me there's no purpose in any of that, I see that as more of an infringement on God's goodness, that, you know, that there's no purpose, that he's not using it for a purpose.

That's worse to me. And you have also won a free copy of this book we are discussing,

Evil and Suffering in a Sovereign God's World by Mark J. Grimaldi. Please make sure we have your full mailing address so that we can have that shipped out to you.

We have Casey, originally from the Philippines, now living in Kannapolis, North Carolina.

He's asking a question that we already addressed what he said, but maybe you can think of something to add to it, especially since there might have been people who missed the first part of the program.

Casey asks, when doing apologetics, how can we answer questions about evil and suffering from a

Reformed rather than Arminian perspective? Most apologists seem to put an overemphasis on free will on the fall of Adam and Eve, yet the

Bible makes it clear that God's sovereignty and foreknowledge of these events was infallible.

Thank you for answering my question. In fact, one thing that we really didn't talk about, if you want to talk about the foreknowledge aspect of what

Casey is asking about, as you know there are a heretical group of Christians known as open theists, and they say that if you are consistent in Arminianism, because they actually call themselves consistent

Arminians, that God cannot know everything in the future, because according to the common way foreknowledge is viewed by even

Arminians is that God just looks through the corridors of time, and being omniscient, he knows what's going to happen, and he acts accordingly, and so on, which would, in contradiction to what

God actually says in his Word, that would actually make him a respecter of persons, because he's acting according to the way people are acting in the future, which is obviously not what the

Bible teaches. But if you could comment on what foreknowledge really is, it's not just knowing something that's going to happen in the future, it's more of the fact that he knows in the sense,

I mean the word know is used in different ways, like in the Garden of Eden, about Adam knowing

Eve, it's a relational word. But if you could explain. Yeah, yeah Chris, and I think you were just hitting on it right there.

Yeah, the word foreknowledge, it can be used in two different ways, and the context is really important. Certainly it can be used in the sense of knowing something that's going to happen before it happens, right?

That's obvious. But when it's used in that way, it's talking about specific events. Whenever it's used in that way, it's always talking about a specific event that would take place.

The thing about that word foreknowledge in Romans is it's talking about God foreknowing people, foreknowing them.

And when it's used in that way, it doesn't mean it has nothing to do with knowing what would happen, or events, and so on.

It has to do with a personal commitment that God has to those people, setting

His love upon them. In fact, in Romans chapter, I believe it's chapter 11, when

Paul deals with the issue of Israel, he talks about that God is not done completely with Israel, in the sense that He's always will be saving some.

You know, He isn't completely abandoned as a remnant, and so on. He says He could, you know, I don't remember the exact wording, but something along the lines of using that very word.

You know, He wouldn't just, He couldn't cast off His people whom He foreknew. And the idea there is there were people that He had set

His love upon beforehand. He knows them in a very intimate and personal way, and that's what

God has done for His people. But right before time, He has set His love upon them in Christ. Ephesians chapter 1 is a great description, in some ways, of foreknowledge.

You know, who have been set apart in the Beloved. God has set His heart upon them, and it's pictured very well,

Chris, in what you said. In the Old Testament, they use language that we're not as familiar with today. You don't say today when you get married, hey, you know,

I knew my wife yesterday. You know, it's just not the way we would use it, but it really means when someone knows, when someone knew his wife, it's when they get married, right?

It's when they're sexually intimate. There's that intimacy that took place, and he knew her. That's what it means.

He knew her in that sense, in that intimate way, and so that carries over into the way God views His people in that sense, in a sanctified sense, obviously, and that's what the word means.

Again, for new people, not events. That's not what the text is saying. And don't get me wrong, the open theists are seriously and dangerously heretical, but they make a good point, though, don't they?

Because they will say to the Arminians, hey, if you're going to be consistent, and if you're going to be consistent and logically consistent when you criticize

Calvinists by saying that God is unloving for ordaining horrific events to occur, you're no better, because God saw that they would happen and did nothing about it.

He just sat idly by and counted sparrows or something while it was going on.

But there is a point to be made by the open theists, because if Arminians are going to be consistent, this is really where they would wind up, by saying that God really doesn't know everything in the future.

Yeah, one of the things that brings great joy to my heart is that I know that there are a lot of good dear

Arminian brethren who are in glory, who are going to be in glory, wonderful, wonderful people, who someone would put me to shame with just the way that they labor for Christ.

But I'm thankful, most of all, that they're inconsistent. I'm thankful in that sense for the inconsistency, because if they were consistent, and this can go on a lot with a lot of doctrines and a lot of eras that are out there, you know,

I'm sure there's things we're not perfect on and so on, obviously, if you were consistent in every sense of the word with that kind of a doctrine, yeah, you would wind up with the open theist, which is blatant heresy.

I mean, so the inconsistency of the Arminian is what makes, to me, what makes them people who we can see as our brothers, and so on.

Yeah, I've said on this program before that the only way that an Arminian can have a peaceful night's sleep knowing that those he has loved died without Christ is to borrow from a

Calvinist worldview and theology. How could you sleep peacefully knowing that if I only witnessed to that person one more time, or more articulately, or more compassionately, or more kindly, well, you could go on and on and on, because if the

Arminian scheme was true, they would be guilty of the damnation in part of everyone they know and love that was lost when they perished.

Yeah, as they say in the expression, too, everybody's an Arminian when they pray, right, when they're on their knees. I mean, not Arminian, no,

Calvinist. Everybody's a Calvinist when they pray, you know, we're praying to God because we know, and you're right, Chris, that would tear me apart mentally to shreds if I knew it was in my hands in any sense.

You know, the other extreme, like as we talked about before, is the hyper -Calvinist. Well, God's gonna do what he's gonna do, kind of like how they treated

William Carey and others. You know, God wants to save the heathen, he'll do it on his own time. We don't want to see that.

There should be a drive and a motivation, you know, to realize that God uses a means, and that we are that means, and we should want to take, we should be the biggest risk -takers in the world.

So that's an extreme, to just sit back and kind of be a fatalist in a sense, but the other extreme definitely is that, definitely.

We have Tyler in Mastic Beach, Long Island, New York, who says, is it true that most non -Christians will not take account of responsibility for their own sin in regards to the evil in the world?

I guess you would have to be omniscient to know that answer, but I'm assuming you could at least say that it's a prevalent thing, right?

Yeah, I mean unfortunately, because of the deception, right, that's on people, the deception of the devil that's over people, and so on,

I mean, they either, I mean, we know in Romans chapter 1, you know, that they're suppressing the truth of God in any sense, in their own conscience, and even the things that they do that are evil, all those things, there's a suppression going on, a willful suppression, which makes it, which shows that they're still accountable and guilty, but yeah,

I mean, they would, I'm sure they would deny things, they would go by their own standard, which is very short, you know, they're not looking at God's standard, but once you cut

God out of the picture, and you're not looking to understand God, your view of everything else shatters, and so you wind up with, yeah, you know,

I'm not really that bad, or at least, you know, I'm not a, you know, I'm a conservative, you know, I'm a Republican, or whatever, you know,

I didn't vote for Barack Obama, but you know, those are the things that make you suddenly self -saved, or even those who are liberal would say, oh, you know,

I believe in freedom, and you know, and I love people who are, who are, people who want to be a different sex than they are, or people who love people of the same sex, you know,

I'm loving toward them, and so I think it's good to just, you know, to encourage them, you know, so everybody's going by their own kind of rules, it's the

Book of Judges, you know, everybody's doing what's right in their own eyes, so I don't know the direct answer to your question, you're right as far as how many, or whatever, but certainly, there's got to be something that people can do to justify themselves so that they could sleep at night, and live the way that we're living, you know.

Well, thank you, Tyler, and this goes for Casey in Kannapolis, North Carolina, too,

I don't know if I mentioned this, but you are both also winning, or have won, Evil and Suffering in a

Sovereign God's World, compliments of Mark Romaldi and of Redemption Press, and also compliments of our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, who will be shipping these books out to you.

Please make sure we have your full mailing address so that Todd and Patty Jennings can have those shipped out to you in the very near future, and keep your eye open for a package with an address label, a return address on the shipping label that says

CVBBS .com, CV for Cumberland Valley, BBS for Bible Book Service, dot com,

CVBBS .com. And in fact, we could even say that it's even more tragic,

Tyler asked about non -Christians not taking account, taking responsibility for their own sins.

Many times we have people in the body of Christ doing that, but we would say, if we believe in the perseverance and preservation of the

Saints, that they ultimately will, after they go through a period of wickedness, that the

Lord will always restore them, that God's true children will never become totally apostate and disown

Him or their responsibility. Yeah, yeah, that they would be led, that the Spirit of God is, I mean, while certainly that the

Spirit of God, you know, people can grieve the Spirit, and sometimes God, in His own grace, even to, you know, to lead people to repentance first would allow them to go astray even further and so on, but yeah,

He's not going to leave them in that condition or allow them to go apostate. If they're truly

His children, He's going to bring them back, and if they don't come back, then it's just evidence that they never were really converted, that they're like one of the three soils, or four soils, that Jesus talks about, you know, they're different kinds of soils that when the seeds were planted, they're one of the other soils that seemed promising, seemed very encouraging for a time, but for some reason or another, you know, they wound up, you know, going astray.

CJ in Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York asks, don't you think that at times Christians far too often will assign reasons for calamity and misery and evil occurring that God never makes clear?

For instance, you will have tornadoes sweeping through certain areas, and the immediate response is that was definitely because there was a large population of homosexuals there, and you can go on and on with the scenarios.

Don't we need to be careful not to assign reasons that God had in His mind that we do not and cannot possibly know?

Yeah, Chris, I would agree with that 100%. You know, God has reasons for, I mean, we know that God is sovereign.

We know that there are forms of judgment involved in those kinds of things. There are also people who are saved, again, who are brought home.

Through that experience, churches are destroyed. You know, a good faithful church is destroyed by a king, you know? God is using that for good in some way to sanctify and grow the people there, whatever it might be, but they actually get specific and say, well, there's a great population of homosexuality there.

To me, I would avoid that kind of language. We don't know fully what God is doing. What we need to do is learn from that, benefit from it, see general patterns and apply it to our own lives, but to actually say literally that this is what

God is doing, and to me that's problematic, and people get into trouble with that.

Could we not, though, appropriately say, if there was a place,

I mean, you could go on and on about to Greenwich Village or San Francisco or something where you have a lot of open rebellion, and it might, like, let's say that there was some kind of a calamity or natural disaster during a gay pride march.

Could we not at least say, look at the danger of waving your fist in God's face and being in rebellion, because you never know when his calamity will strike?

Yeah, yeah, I think so, and I think you have a scriptural, you know, we have a scriptural basis to do that, you know.

The only reason I would limit it in some sense is because, you know, things like that happen.

Like I said, you can have a situation where there's, you know, there's a Christian event going on when we hear about these things, and then, you know, a gunman goes in there and just kills, you know, several people, or a bomb goes off, and so we can apply scripture to that as well, you know, and encourage the families and etc.

But yeah, I would definitely say that, you know, when you look in scripture, there are times when God brings an immediate judgment on someone, you know, to set an example.

You know, you have Sodom and Gomorrah, you have certainly what happened with the flood, but you have examples of Nadab and Abihu, you have what happened later on with the sons of the priest

Eli, Hophni and Phinehas, and sometimes God brings judgment on people like that for their wickedness, sometimes it's immediate, sometimes he waits a little while, whatever it might be, we all deserve the immediate, but sometimes

God does that. He brings judgment on some to call attention to others. I think in general, while we can make those statements at times, you know, we need to be careful with it, but I think the bigger issue is to make sure that we learn from it and apply it.

How are we applying what God is saying to us? Because we're now the ones God is speaking to through that message.

Those people have died, you know, they're dealing with their eternal destiny, that's it, they're done. Yes, and in fact, some people,

I'm sure you would agree, either consciously or unconsciously, are distracting the focus away from themselves and feeling superior to others by saying, look at them, it's their fault this happened, has nothing to do with me or anybody in my church or the way we're living, and obviously they could be overlooking a great evil in their own minds and hearts and amidst their own people if they are doing things like that.

Yeah, in fact, when you're looking during the time of Christ, you know, the people that he most adamantly condemned and spoke out against were the religious leaders, right, the self -righteous.

These weren't the people who were out there prostituting themselves, you know, doing drugs or whatever and all that. He was reaching out with the gospel and compassion toward those who were some of the most pained sinners, and so that's why

I would be careful in the sense, especially where we're seeing ourselves in many ways as self -righteous, where people would look, especially some of the people who are unconverted, and say, well, look, those guys were a bunch of, you know, homosexual supporters and this and that, and meanwhile these people are saying that, you know, maybe their sin is not homosexuality, but maybe their sin is covetousness or greed or maybe, you know, that they don't know the

Lord in truth and they have other, you know, they're watching pornography or they're adulterers, whatever it is, could be different form of sin, and so that's what we need to be careful, too, and then, you know, well, look at these guys, they're the worst, and I feel better about myself.

No, Jesus said with the Tower of Siloam, you know, no, don't think that they were worse than you, you know, but you repent or you likewise will perish.

Well, thank you so much, Pastor Mark, for being on the program. I look forward to having you back. In fact, if you could hold on,

I'd like to schedule another interview with you when we go off the air, and the

Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Long Island in Merrick, New York, can be found at gracereformedbaptistchurch .com,

gracereformedbaptistchurch .com, Redemption Press, who's published this book that we have been discussing, can be found at redemption -press .com,

redemption -press .com, and of course, you could always purchase books by our guests through Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, CV, bbs .com,

CV for Cumberland Valley, BBS for Bible Book Service .com. Just ask Todd and Patty Jennings to order it for you if they don't already have it in stock.

I want to thank my co -host, Reverend Buzz Taylor, for being here today in studio. I want to thank everybody who listened, especially those who submitted questions, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater

Savior than you are a sinner, and we look forward to hearing from you tomorrow with your questions for our guests on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.