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July 12, 2017:
Marc Grimaldi, a pastor @ Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Long Island in Merrick, NY, will address the theme:
“EVIL & SUFFERING in a Sovereign God’s World”
Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.
Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage, We are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with, to have in view in conversation, to make one another wiser and better.
It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.
Now here's our host. Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.
This is Chris Arnsen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 12th day of July 2017, and I am delighted to have today as my returning guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, a man who was, until just a few years ago, my pastor at Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Long Island located in Merrick, New York, before I relocated here to Pennsylvania and became a member of Grace Baptist Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, much to the dismay of the leadership and congregation there.
But it is my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron, Pastor Mark J. Grimaldi.
Hey, thank you, Chris. Always a pleasure. Appreciate it.
And in studio with me is my co-host, the Reverend Buzz Taylor.
Hello again.
And if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question for Pastor Mark, our email address is ChrisArnsen at gmail .com, C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com, on one of the most highly debated and perplexing issues known to man, probably since the dawn of time.
It's the question of evil and suffering in a sovereign God's world. And please, if you write in a question, give us at least your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence, but you may remain anonymous if it makes you feel more comfortable if this question involves a personal and private matter.
And obviously, a subject like evil and suffering in a sovereign God's world automatically lends itself to the possibility of people having personal and private matters they want to ask about, but so we will grant your request if that is the reason that you are desiring to remain anonymous.
But if it's not a personal and private matter, please at least give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence. Well, it's been a while since we've had you on the program, Pastor Mark, and Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio has recently reached a point where every single day for the last several weeks we are getting contacted by new listeners that we've never heard from before.
So God is doing something. It seems like a dam has broken open and there is a flood of new listeners who are discovering and falling in love with this show, and I'm thanking God for this new development.
So therefore, a lot of these people will have no idea what Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Long Island is, so why don't you let our listeners know about this congregation?
Sure, yeah, Grace Reformed Baptist Church. We are a local church in Merrick on Long Island, as you said, and we would hold to the five solas of the Reformation, the doctrines of grace as well, and our confession of faith is the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689.
And so we would hold dearly to the teachings that are really that are glued to the Reformation, and again, the sola is faith alone, Christ Reformed Baptist Church.
And I don't know if it was made official yet, but last we spoke I believe you were on the way to becoming a member church in the Reformed Baptist Network. Did that ever take place?
Yes, yes, we are a part of the Reformed Baptist Network. My co-pastor, Pastor Doug, went to the actual signing meeting, so we're a part of that wonderful network and certainly would recommend anybody looking into that.
It's really a blessed network of churches being able to support, pray for one another, encourage one another, especially in trying to encourage one.
Another with missions and evangelism and so on. Yeah, people might hear that name and automatically wrongly think you're talking about a radio or television network. That is not the.
Case. No, no, no, not at all. No, this is similar to an association idea, but a little less formal than an association, more geared to supporting one another with evangelism and missions and.
Just trying to spread the gospel together. And if anybody wants to find out more information about the Reformed Baptist Network, you can go to reformedbaptistnetwork .com. Reformedbaptistnetwork .com.
And of course, I'm planning on announcing this later as well, but for anybody interested in finding out more about Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Long Island in Merrick, New York, you can go to gracereformedbaptistchurch .com.
Gracereformedbaptistchurch .com. Well, there have been things, as you know, Pastor Mark, there have been books already written on the subject of evil and suffering in a sovereign God's world. There have been even books written by great men of faith from centuries past, like Puritans and others.
Why did you find a need to include a new book on this very.
Important subject? Well, I think I'm a little bit smarter than all those guys.
Now I know why you are. You are, Chris.
No, the reason why... Now we're going to have to have a show on the problem of lying in a.
Sovereign God's world. Humility and lying. No, I wanted to... Well, a couple of things that came to mind with putting together this book is one is I wanted it to be something that was quite short, almost like a handbook in a sense.
This book is only about 100-something pages, and it's a small frame, something that people can kind of dip into and read through the different points that I make and try to use it as just a helpful tool to people bring up questions or even their own concerns that they might have.
A lot of the other books that are out there certainly are just large volumes and would deal with some of the individual topics that I have in this book. A full volume could be easily committed to one chapter.
So I tried to kind of make something that would be something short, something somebody can sit down at a few readings and hopefully glean enough that can help them come to grips with some of these things and see the blessing even in understanding the reality of God's sovereignty and His not being the author of evil and so on and just making sense of that.
Yeah, and I want to urge the pastors and deacons listening or anybody else listening who is in a position of authority where you can order books in bulk for your church. This is one of those times where you'd want to order a case or more of evil and suffering in a sovereign God's world because it's small, it's very reasonably priced, especially when ordering multiple copies and the subject is one that I am sure that every Christian has not only thought about in their own minds but I'm sure every Christian at some point in their lives, if not many times, will have conversations with others either inside or outside the Christian faith where this question is the very first thing that comes up.
Why is there evil and suffering in sovereign God's world? Or people will just say, if they are a critic of Christianity, they'll say, if your God is so good, why is there evil and suffering in this world?
Sometimes they'll say that in a mocking fashion, but this is known as the theodicy, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, really important,.
Chris, and I can remember even myself before I was saved in my teenage years with my parents and some members of the church that they were part of, and I can remember just really debating with them and trying to show logically why God must be the author of evil, and just especially when you believe in the Reformed doctrines that we hold to about God being absolutely sovereign, you can see why that logic would seem to make sense.
But there are several things I think that, looking back now that I didn't consider and I came to understand more and more, is to see how God can both be both be the author of all things, both be completely all-sovereign over everything, and yet at the same time not be the one who is the author of evil.
And that's where I really wanted to get to get into. I get into a lot of side issues as well that tap into this, such as the accountability of man, you know, fatalism, what about the issue of why didn't God create Adam and Eve without the ability of sinning?
If he knew they were going to sin beforehand, you know, why did he go forward with it? You know, those kinds of things. I wrestle through a lot of that too in the book, all the way to even topic says, what do you do with the issue of a child who is a young girl who is raped repeatedly and, you know, kidnapped and put to death, and how does that happen on God's watch?
And especially a God who is all-sovereign, how do you account for that? So I kind of, you know, dabble into all those kinds of things as well in this book.
Well, you know, let's go through some of the words in the title of this book so we can have a definition for those of our listeners who may not be completely familiar with the terminology, or perhaps they're familiar with it but they have a false definition of it.
You have evil and suffering in a sovereign God's world. Now that word sovereign has been used even by those who disagree with us who are theologically reformed. They really don't consistently and logically use that term about God in its fullest sense, but we who are reformed take this definition of sovereign to its full measure when we are discussing a sovereign God.
If you could please explain what you mean by a sovereign God in the title of the book.
Yeah, in fact, in the first chapter I address the issue of God's sovereignty, and it's a short chapter because one of the things I do say in there is that there are a lot of just great materials written on the sovereignty of God.
You know, you have Lorraine Bettner and.
Arthur Pink, and we go off, you scroll this. Yes, Lorraine Bettner is always one of my favorite.
Female authors. Sorry, but I do get into there, and the way I would say it first is inside the book is God is all-sovereign, right, just in case people may mistake that. Okay, sovereignty, he's in control, but maybe he relinquished some of his sovereignty, you know, when one of the people, you build sovereignty in the way I understand it, the way I see the scripture, as God is the supreme ruler over all things, and as such, he works all things out in accordance with his own unchangeable divine will and for his glory.
Everything. He's completely exercised sovereignty over everything. He doesn't relinquish anything, and in fact, if he did relinquish anything, my argument in the book is that he would cease to be God, and it would be a real depressing reality if he did, because there would be a lot of purposelessness and things that would happen that are not, we have no, there's nothing in there, in our suffering, while God is kind of a loud man to kind of, you know, make those decisions, and it just happened to go that way, and so be it, flip the coin.
So I believe God is completely all-sovereign over all things, and that at the same time, again, as you work through the rest of the book, I get into how that jives with the idea of yet evil still being able to exist, and him not being the author of evil.
At the same time. Yeah, that's also a very controversial issue. In fact, those who are outside of Reformed theology will very frequently accuse those who are Calvinists or believers in sovereign grace that we are making the claim that God is the author of evil.
It seems that when it comes to the disagreement amongst Christians in regard to this very important and age-old topic, you have on the one hand those who are theologically Reformed who want to defend the biblical truth that God is all-sovereign, and those who are Arminian, or those outside of the Calvinistic faith, will make the claim that, or they will be in essence making an attempt to defend God's goodness and also man's responsibility.
And they will often say, yes, God is all good, and the reason why there is evil in the world is because God does not wish to create robots when he has created humankind, and therefore the one thing that is required of humans in order for them not to be automatons or robots is that they have free will, and therefore that is why we have evil in the world.
That is very often the explanation I have heard from non-Reformed Christians as to this problem that we have with defending an all-good God in a wicked, very seriously wicked and evil world. If you could just comment on that.
Yeah, yeah. In fact, the first two chapters of the book, and again, one of the things about going through the book that is helpful is that there is a necessary progression that takes place as you work through each chapter, so inevitably there are going to be questions that are going to come to mind, but I seek to address them all through going through the book, working through everything logically, and trying to explain things from a biblical standpoint.
But the first two chapters, the first one is God is all-sovereign, the second one is that God is good, and then the third chapter is evil exists. So generally what happens, as you said, is people think one of the other is the goodness of God or the sovereignty of God to try to account for the reality of evil.
So you'll have, as you said, some in the extreme, you know, in the Reformed faith, very extreme, would have no problem even saying that in some sense that God is connected to evil. You know, this is the author because that's the best thing for his glory, and on and so on.
And they would say things a little too far, and then others, as you said, in the Arminian faith would say no, because that means that God can't be good, and so he must have relinquished some of his sovereignty in some sense so that man could have, like you said, free will and that we were not just robots being controlled.
So I think it's important that we uphold both that God is very current over all things, and I have scriptures in there that do talk about that, and he's also, he cannot be anything but good in the fullest sense.
He is the very definition of goodness in its purest form. And yet at the same time, there is the existence of evil. So the question is how do you get from a God who is all sovereign, who is all good, and if we could use these words in some sanctified sense, is at some point in eternity past without any created thing, how does evil come out of that?
How does evil exist in that scenario without somehow associated to God being the author of that? And I think.
That's a big question, and I do deal with that in chapter three. Great, and the balanced, the biblically sound and historically accurate Calvinist or believer in the doctrines of sovereign grace or reformed theology, he will always seek to use all the biblical data, whether it involves the sovereignty of God and the goodness of God and the responsibility of man, but those of the extremes, as you mentioned, those who are either hyper-Calvinists or those who are Arminian, tend to exalt certain aspects or character traits of God, or even just biblical texts, at the expense of others, at the expense of truth.
They don't want to present the whole counsel of God because it somehow conflicts with their preconceived notions,.
Am I right? Yeah, yeah, the people don't like to live in a realm of tension, right, and the reality is when you're dealing with a God who is infinite, right, and we're not, we're finite, we're tiny, you know, when you look at the wisdom of God, even what we can see in a created world, which is not even, you know, God's wisdom is beyond that, it's beyond the heavens, his greatness is beyond the heavens, and we try to logicize everything, and we want to alleviate all the tensions, and so something of God's character under the bus, something of his essence has been faithful to what, and we need to reason within those scriptures, we don't want to throw out logic, logic is important, but we want to make sure that we have a sanctified, right, sense about us, and a humble sense about us as we process these things, and be able to say what's true, allow for the tension to exist, and reason through that, and I think, like I said, when I reason, when I go through the book, I think if people read through it, I think they'll see some things from a scriptural standpoint that will help alleviate that tension to an extent.
Is it ever going to be fully God on this side of heaven? Well, none of us are going to be fully God on this side or on the other side of heaven, so it is, in that sense, we're not going to fully be able to understand everything anyway, but I do think there's a way, there are certain things that can give us a sense of peace in understanding, you know, who God is and the reality of his goodness and so on, and how these things congive.
There is a way of reconciling these things biblically enough to give us a sense of peace and yet humility in recognizing how great.
Our God is. All right, I want to steal the thunder of some of our listeners who are writing in, so I will begin to go to some of our listener questions. Let's see here, we have Jenny from Ben Salem, Pennsylvania, who has two questions.
Briefly explain to our listeners what is entailed in God's sovereignty over his creation. You really dealt with that already. If you want to add to that, you can. Her second question is, often God is accused of causing evil since he is the creator.
Can you explain what is the Reformed position on evil in relationship to God? Yeah, what I would.
Say is this, and again, this is beginning of who God is. I think part of the problem, Chris, is that when we think about evil, I think we don't actually stop and think, well, what is evil? And when you look at scripture, and again, I get into this, especially going back to the beginning and when Adam and Eve were in the garden and the tree was there and God gave the command, we have to begin by saying this, that obviously, and again, I'm using terms, knowing that God is outside of time, there was absolutely no evil and no possibility of evil, and that when God was completely alone, right, no angelic beings, no people created in his image, nothing there, just God, let's say.
And again, the only way I can understand it is to use temple terms. And then at some point, evil exists. So the question is, well, what is evil and how does it come to exist? And I believe that when you look at scripture, at least from the standpoint of the creation, right, because you have the angels when they fell as well, and there's debate about that, and I get into that too, but look at it from the standpoint of the creation, how evil entered this world.
One thing you'll notice is that it's the moment that God gives Adam, right, Adam the command to not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and when he says that if you do that, you will surely die, the moment God does that, something important, very important happens, the potential for evil exists at that moment, the potential, not evil, but the potential for it.
And the reason why it's the potential for evil to exist is because the moment God decides, or when God creates any being that is less than God, right, God doesn't create anything, first of all, God doesn't create anything that's equal to him, he can't do that, he wouldn't do that, right, that would be idolatry, but the moment God creates a reasonable creature who in some way is accountable to him, and from a moral standpoint, and he has expectations of that creature, the moment that he does that and gives that creature a command, the potential for evil exists at that moment.
So we can say God offers the potential for evil, but the evil itself doesn't exist until that creature disobeys God, right, and once that creature takes of the tree, or once Satan does what he does and is rebelling, evil exists.
The reason why that's important is because God himself cannot be evil, he cannot offer evil, because evil itself, what is evil? Evil is the very opposite of what God is, it's ungodliness. Evil is defined by its very nature as being ungodliness, as being contrary to God.
And so you can't have anything contrary to God or opposing to God when it's just God. There has to be some ability in whatever God creates, in a lesser being that's responsible to God, there has to be some ability in that creature to be able to be responsible to God and to make a moral decision, and if they don't, if they go in the wrong direction, then evil suddenly exists, and that's what happened with Satan, and that's what happened with man.
And so God doesn't create evil, he creates a situation and he creates beings where the potential for evil can exist, right, can exist. Now this does bring up more questions, I realize that, and I get to them later on in the book too, why didn't God not create that potential, people with the potential to be able to be evil and so on, we can get into that later, but for the moment I just want to say that as far as the actual existence of evil, it only exists when you have a lesser being responsible to a higher being, and when you contradict that higher being in any sense, when you violate his commands, his law, when you counter that being, that is when the existence of evil exists.
And so evil by its very nature is the opposite, it is contra God, and he cannot be the author of that which contradicts him.
You know what I'm saying with that? Yes, I do. And in fact, some of the confusion that exists amongst Calvinists and Arminians when we have these discussions is because those who are outside of the Reformed faith misunderstand at times what we mean by the will of God, and you do have a chapter in your book that defines God's decretive will and the reality of evil, because there is, I should say, a separation between God's decretive will and his prescribed will.
For instance, he says, among the other commandments in the Decalogue, that thou shalt not commit adultery. Now, when two people do commit adultery, that, sometimes in the mind of God alone, we may never know the reason, that was something that was decreed before the foundations of the world, and it is against, it violates at the same time, his prescribed will, because it violates one of.
His commandments. Am I right? Yeah. Yeah, in fact, I have a section in there. Early on, I start to open that door up, and I get into it more as the book progresses, but that's a very important point, Chris.
We have to understand, too, that God has his two wills, and I know that sounds strange, but it has to be the case. Biblically, it's definitely confirmed. God has a decreed will, as you said, and that's where he decrees all things whatsoever will pass, nothing will change that or violate that, and he also has a revealed or a moral will, or what, I forgot what you had said, but there's another way of putting that.
Prescribed will.
Prescribed will, yeah, that which he is, he reveals to us as his commands, as what he desires and so on, what he doesn't desire, and two examples that I give in Scripture that, and there's many, it's all throughout Scripture, but that really hit home with that are the examples of Joseph, and of course, the Lord Jesus Christ himself, and as I explain, which I don't have to do here, because I think we all know the story of Joseph, and of course, the Lord Jesus Christ, I would hope we know about, but when you look at the life of Joseph and what happened with his brothers, and how they sold them, wickedly sold them into slavery because of their jealousy, and et cetera, and you go on to the end when Joseph reveals himself and forgives them, he goes on to say, hey, you know, it's after his father dies, and they think that he's gonna now take vengeance on them, he says, no, you know, who am I in the place of God, and what God meant, or what you meant for evil, God meant for good, and what Joseph was saying there is that the intentions of his brothers were wicked, they had very sinful, wicked motives, they were wrong, but got through that wrong to accomplish salvation for Israel, because they would be delivered from the famine and be able to survive, and so on, and the same thing with Christ, and being crucified in Acts, Peter talks about how those, how the Jews had wickedly put Christ to death, and in doing so, they were accomplishing the very will of God, which through that evil, and their evil intentions, God would accomplish salvation, and so I ask two questions in the book earlier on, I say, was it the will of God for Joseph's brothers to sell him into slavery, was it the will of God for the Jews to turn Christ over to be crucified, and it's kind of a trick question, because really the answer is yes and no, it depends on what you're talking about, from the moral will of God, it was a very wrong and evil thing for them to do, they have no credit to receive for that, they didn't do anything good, it was wrong, they violated God's clear and revealed will, so it wasn't the will of God in that sense, but from a decreed standpoint, and God decreeing all things, he used even that evil, right, to accomplish a greater good, right, the salvation of Israel in one case, and sinners who come to Christ in the other, and so we see those two wills, both of them at the same time, two sides of the same coin, but they're functioning together, and that's one important, it's important to understand that as you go through this issue of understanding evil and suffering in the sovereign God's world,.
Definitely to get that understanding. Yes, amen. In fact, I have never heard a non-reformed person have any kind of real adequate answer to the text that I'm about to read that I think really vividly demonstrates that although whenever a person sins, they are violating God's prescribed will, God does indeed decree at times these evil acts to occur.
2 Samuel chapter 12, beginning in verse 11, this is the section where after David, King David, commits adultery with Bathsheba, and she is pregnant, and he is very worried about the fact that everybody's going to know that she conceived the child outside of wedlock since her husband was on the battlefield, Uriah the Hittite, and they will likely assume it is him, so in order to cover up this adultery, he actually arranges for the murder of Uriah the Hittite, and when Nathan the prophet challenges David on this, and God is speaking through Nathan the prophet, he says, beginning in verse 11 of 2 Samuel 12, behold, I will raise up evil against you from your own household.
I even take your wives before your eyes and give them to your companion, and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight. Indeed, you did it secretly, but I will do this thing before all Israel and under the sun.
So there is clear evidence that adulterous activity is going on as a chastisement to David, because they involve his own wife, or his wives, I should say, and it is something that God himself is decreeing to occur.
Yeah, yeah, in fact, and that's fulfilled with Absalom right when he actually goes up on the roof, right, of David's palace, and it's known, not that everybody can see it visibly, but it's known to all of Israel.
It was a means that he was now going to be taking that control. He actually slept with David's concubines, right, his Muslim wives, and so I believe that's what that was fulfilled, and I think in that sense, again, like you said, we see God ordaining something.
Now, let's step back one second. What Absalom did was evil, right? His motives were wrong. He had every evil. He wasn't saying, you know what, God made this prophecy, I heard about against my father, and I'm going to fulfill that because I love God.
No, he had every wicked desire and intent in his heart to do wrong, and he had lustful thoughts, he had jealousy of his father, he was an evil son, and it was all wrong, and yet God had pronounced judgment on David and would use, right, he ordained, he had, yeah, he had ordained to use that very means to be, that would to be the case, to be the way that David would be chastised for what David had done with that issue.
Those things we see, and what we do see is that the evil that takes done by man, and it's the intentions of man to do that. It's that the man is completely guilty, and I get into that a little in the book too, the idea of the accountability of man.
Who can hold man accountable then? No, man is very accountable. What he does, he wants to do it. Every sin you and I, Chris, have ever committed in our lives at any time, and especially before we were saved, we'd be lying if we said we didn't want to do those things, and we didn't desire, and it wasn't our heart's desire, right, and at the same time, speak for yourself, I'll ordain those things.
Sorry about that. Yeah, no, no, so it's, and one of the things I seek to establish as well, and this again is where you go through all the chapters and you get the balance, is that that being the case, at the same time, God has no delight in evil.
He has no delight in it. He doesn't enjoy it. He doesn't, it's not like before he created, he said, you know what, I just would really want to see people slaughtered and killed and raped, and I enjoy these things.
He hates what's evil, even though at the same time, he ordains to use that for good, and all these things that happen in the world, even the most evil things, and you look at the cross, but what could be more evil than what happened with Christ on the cross, when you look at the innocence of who Christ was and what happened to him, it's, there's no more evil of an event in one sense, and yet it's also the greatest expression of God's love and grace through that cross, and there's a chapter in the book called Bring It All Together, because it is at the cross that I think we can step back and appreciate these things and see, yes, God is good.
He's all-sovereign. He is, well, he is, he ordains, and even all of the evil we do out of our desires and our intents, and what he ordains, he uses all that to do good, to reveal his glory, and none of that is saying that I'm a God who, because I'm infinite and eternal, I have a right, and I just enjoy seeing evil things.
I believe what it says in Scripture, that when God says to Israel, I do not delight in the death of the wicked, but turn that you may be lived, he says it twice, and one time, the way it's said, it's in a general way, it's not just Israel.
There's a general sense when God says that he does not delight in the death of the wicked. He has no joy in that, and at the same time, he is glorified by it, and he ordains it, and he uses it to accomplish his bigger, his broader will.
So all these things come together in the same package. Again, do our brains at times, you know, we kind of get overwhelmed by it, is there some tension there? Yeah, but I do think when you look at the whole picture, which I try to get in this short little book, I think it's very helpful and very encouraging to see that in even the worst case picture, a little girl getting raped, a little child being abducted, raped, and murdered, buried alive, which happens, you know, with these stories, these things happen.
Even in that situation, knowing God will ordain that, and that there is a good purpose even in that, I think this comfort that can be found even in that kind of situation, as horrible as that is.
Yeah, I want to pick up on that when we return, and also obviously take some of our listener questions. By the way, Jenny in Ben Salem, Pennsylvania, you have won a free copy of Evil and Suffering in God's Sovereign, or should I say, a Sovereign God's World, Evil and Suffering in a Sovereign God's World by our guest Mark J. Grimaldi.
Please make sure you give us your full mailing address so we can have that shipped out to you as soon as possible by our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com, cv for Cumberland Valley, bbs for BibleBookService .com.
And keep your eye out in the mail for a package from cvbbs .com that should arrive, God willing, in a week or so. Thank you for listening to the program, and keep spreading the word in Ben Salem, Pennsylvania, and beyond.
And we are going to be right back, God willing, with Mark Grimaldi and more of our discussion on Evil and Suffering in a Sovereign God's World. Every day at thousands of community centers,.
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Hi, I'm Pastor Bill Shishko, inviting you to tune into A Visit to the Pastors' Study every Saturday from 12 noon to 1 pm Eastern Time on WLIE Radio, www .wlie540am .com. We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you, and we invite you to visit the Pastors' Study by calling in with your questions.
Our time will be lively, useful, and I assure you, never dull. Join us this Saturday at 12 noon Eastern Time for A Visit to the Pastors' Study, because everyone needs a pastor. Welcome back. This is Chris Arns,.
And if you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours, with about 90 minutes to go, is Mark Grimaldi, a pastor at Grace Reform Baptist Church of Long Island in Merrick, New York, alongside Pastor Doug Totter.
And he is addressing the theme, Evil and Suffering in a Sovereign God's World. If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is ChrisArnsen at gmail .com. ChrisArnsen at gmail .com. And please give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence if you live outside the USA.
One thing that I wanted to have you clarify or make crystal clear, I know that you mentioned it already, but lest anyone foolishly think that they are not guilty of sin and will not reap the horrible repercussions of that just because of the fact that God is sovereign and has decreed it to occur, they better really think again and read more of the scripture that they should have in front of them, because of the fact that even in Romans 9, we have Paul, the Apostle, automatically, or should I say knowing that an automatic response in that area would come from someone who is either disagreeing or not understanding evil and suffering and sin in a sovereign God's world, because as Paul says, you will say, well how can he find fault, because who can resist his will?
So obviously this is not something that people should entertain the idea that just because they are a part of God's preordained plan does not mean they are not themselves responsible and guilty of their own sins.
Oh yeah, you don't want to be, hey,.
You know what, I just committed adultery, but you know what, it was God's will, so it's okay. That is foolish, foolish thinking. That just will incur greater judgment if there's no repentance. We are very responsible.
Again, there's a section in my book that talks about the accountability of We are very much accountable and responsible for our actions. We want to do them. We desire to do them. They come from our own hearts, our own desires, our own fallen nature, and so we are very much responsible.
And I used the example, and there's tons, as you know, throughout Scripture Chris, but I picked one, and I used the example of Sennacherib, king of Assyria, in Isaiah 36. God actually speaks to Sennacherib, because God had used the king of Assyria at the time, and he was using him as a vehicle of judgment for the wickedness of the nations, and even used them to exile the northern kingdom of Israel.
And so they were used in a very mighty way by God to bring judgment. But Sennacherib wasn't seeing things that way. He had no concern about the will of God. In his mind, it was what he did. And look at how powerful I am, and similar to what happened with Nebuchadnezzar.
And so God had said, and I'll just read the Scripture here, it says, Did you not hear long ago how I made it from ancient times that I formed it? Now I have brought it to pass that you should be for crushing fortified cities into heaps of ruins.
Therefore their inhabitants had little power. They were dismayed and confounded. They were as the grass on the housetops and grain blighted before it had grown. But I know your dwelling place. You're going out, and you're coming in, and you'll rage against me.
Because your rage against me and your tumult have come up to my ears. Therefore I will put my hook in your nose and my bridle in your lips. And I will turn you back by the way which you came. So Sennacherib was boasting.
He was ready to go after Jerusalem. You know the whole story with Hezekiah and bringing the prayer before God. And he was boasting at everything that he was doing. And God said, I decreed it long ago.
I decreed it from the past that you were going to be used for this purpose. But you think it's you, and now your time is up. Your number's being called. And so anybody who's foolish enough to look at God's sovereignty and his decree of will and to use that as a means of justifying their sin, that's not going to fly in God's righteous.
Court of law. That's a real, real dangerous place to go. Amen. And we have RJ in White Plains, New York, who says that I have seen a Christian play that depicts Judas as being a fall guy or a scapegoat in the plan and plot to have Christ crucified.
They are trying to protect the fact that God is not guilty of causing people to sin at the same time making it clear that he was in control of the events that took place that led to the crucifixion of Christ that was necessary for the atonement of sinners.
But this is a ridiculous approach, is it not, to make Judas or anyone else an unwilling pawn in the events that God decrees when they involve sin? Yeah, it's insane to assume.
That. In fact, when you look again at Judas, if you look at his character, he was pilfering from the money box. He was never converted. It wasn't God taking out a locket and waving it before his eyes and saying, okay, let me hypnotize him and make him do what I want him to do in that sense, even though God, of course, ordained it and used that to accomplish the greatest good of all.
But Judas, very much so of his own wicked intentions, had succumbed to the temptation of the devil and wanted the money, and a few were never born. So he certainly is not someone to look to as a hero in any sense, or someone who did a favor.
Again, what he meant for evil, God used to.
Accomplish the greatest good. Yeah, and Jesus even called him a devil, and the scriptures say that a devil entered him. So it's clear that he was not just some unwilling dupe. No, like I said,.
He was already along the way. He was covetous. He was pilfering from the money box. There was a lot of deception going on there. We don't know all the details, but there's indication that he was already stealing.
And even in what Judas wound up doing, we see how the process of hardening takes place in people. When you're given over to sin in some form, as you continue on down that road, there's a hardening process that takes place, and God will give you over to it.
And you see that with Judas, as well as God accomplishing his will, ordaining all things, all those things. At the same time, Judas was reaping what he was sowing all along, and to the point where he was completely responsible for being given over to Satan.
It wasn't that he was this innocent good guy, and he was trying to do the right thing all along, and really believed Christ and following him, and he was an upstanding man, and all of a sudden, Satan just jumped inside of him.
No, it was his own guilt. He made himself susceptible even by his.
Own sin all along the way. Yeah, and the fact that Jesus said that it would be better for him if he was never born, that settles the question on whether or not Judas went to heaven or hell. I was actually taken aback.
I was at a Bible study a number of years ago, and the man leading the study seemed to be very credible, and wise, and biblically sound in many ways, but he would not answer the question as to whether or not Judas went to heaven or hell, because he said that's speculation.
And I raised my hand, and I said, how is it speculation? Jesus said that it would have been better for him never to have been born. That settles the issue of where.
He is. That generally doesn't speak about someone who's going to heaven. I mean, even Joel Osteen, Jim Criss, I've seen somebody at one point, I don't know if it's through an email or something, that said that they believed Judas could have been saved and all that.
The fact that he hung himself, again, it's presented as the form of someone who's cursed, hanging from the tree in that sense. And then even what Peter says, that when they're in Acts, when they're looking to replace Judas, they say that he had gone to his own place, Judas.
The indication is there that he very much was condemned, that he would have not been born. So, I mean, I'm very slow to say somebody is in hell in looking at this life, because I know that there are people who, you know, by God's grace, at the last minute, they repent.
But in Scripture, when you see something like that, that clear, we have a right to say very much so, and to use that example of someone who.
Was that close to Christ, and yet wound up in eternal condemnation. I'm going to take an early break here, so I don't interrupt you in mid-sentence. And what I'm doing is, I'm forwarding a rather lengthy question from Joe in Slovenia, so this way, during the station break, you can have plenty of time to look over his lengthy question and respond to it as best as you can when we return from the break.
So, if anybody else would like to join us, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. Chrisarnson at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence, if you live outside of the USA.
And please only remain anonymous if it is about a personal or private matter. I will read now the question that I forwarded to you out loud, and then you can respond when we get back. Joe says, Dear Brother Chris,.
My question regards the philosophical necessity of evil. If God chooses to create a material universe for the purpose of displaying His inter-Trinitarian goodness, majesty, holiness, and glory, does that not inherently necessitate that He creates within the universe the ability of a free moral agent to rebel against Him and introduce evil and all its horrible consequences?
In order for us to be able to actually appreciate all the goodness that is God, do we not have to have His antithesis to contrast Him with, ergo Satan and the evil which He introduced into God's perfect creation to His glory?
Thank you for sharpening with us by dealing comprehensively in the most difficult topics of our faith. Okay, that was Joe in Pennsylvania, and you can respond when we come back from the break. And we look forward to hearing from more of you and your questions for Mark Rimoldi on the problem of evil when we return from this break.
So don't go away. God willing, we'll be right back after these messages.
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Paul wrote to the church at Galatia, For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ. Hi, I'm Mark Lukens, Pastor of Providence Baptist Church.
We are a Reformed Baptist Church and we hold to the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689. We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts. We strive to reflect Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do than how men view these things.
That's not the best recipe for popularity, but since that wasn't the Apostles' priority, it must not be ours either. We believe, by God's grace, that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man, and to be vessels of Christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us, and to build up the body of Christ in truth and love.
If you live near Norfolk, Massachusetts, or plan to visit our area, please come and join us for worship and fellowship. You can call us at 508 -528 -5750, that's 508 -528 -5750, or go to our website to email us, listen to past sermons, worship songs, or watch our TV program entitled, Resting in Grace.
You can find us at ProvidenceBaptistChurchMA .org, that's ProvidenceBaptistChurchMA .org, or even on sermonaudio .com. Providence Baptist Church is delighted to sponsor Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
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Hi, I'm Pastor Bill Shishko, inviting you to tune in to A Visit to the Pastor's Study every Saturday from 12 noon to 1 pm Eastern Time on WLIE Radio, www .wlie540am .com. We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you, and we invite you to visit the Pastor's Study by calling in with your questions.
Our time will be lively, useful, and I assure you, never dull. Join us this Saturday at 12 noon Eastern Time for a visit to the Pastor's Study, because everyone needs a pastor.
Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. If you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours, with about an hour to go, is Mark Grimaldi, one of the pastors at Grace Reform Baptist Church of Long Island, New York, in Merrick.
We are addressing his book, Evil and Suffering in a Sovereign God's World. If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com, chrisarnzen at gmail .com, and please give us at least your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence, if you live outside of the USA.
You may remain anonymous if it's about a personal and private matter. And before I return to our discussion, I have some special announcements, important announcements, by some of our sponsors. The Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York, is pleased to announce that the Word of Truth Bible Institute will be offering two free classes this summer, the Book of Romans and Old Testament Survey.
The Romans study will meet on July 12th, that's tonight, July 19th, and July 26th from 7 to 9 p .m., and the Old Testament Survey will meet the week of July 17th through the 21st from 7 to 9 p .m., with the exception of July 19th, which will be from 5 to 7 p .m. at the Word of Truth Church, 1055 Portion Road in Farmingville, Long Island, New York.
Registration is required by calling Pastor Bruce Bennett at area code 631 -806 -0614. 631 -806 -0614. Even though the Romans class has already started, new students are still welcome. The church website is wotchurch .com, that's W-O-T for Word of Truth, church .com, W-O-T church .com.
And then, coming up in August, next month, from the 3rd through the 5th of August, Fellowship Conference New England is being held at my co-host, Reverend Buzz Taylor's old stomping grounds in Portland, Maine, at the Deering Center Community Church on 4 Brentwood Street in Portland, and the speakers include Pastor Don Curran of Don Curran Ministries and also HeartCry Missionary Society, the organization founded by Paul Washer, my friend Pastor Mac Tomlinson, who is an author and pastor at Providence Chapel in Denton, Texas, Pastor Jesse Barrington of Grace Life Church in Dallas, Texas, and Pastor Nate Pikowitz, who's the author of Reviving New England, a book that we addressed with Pastor Nate on this program, and he is the pastor of Harvest Bible Church in Gilmanton Ironworks, New Hampshire.
If you'd like to attend that conference, go to fellowshipconferencenewengland .com, fellowshipconferencenewengland .com. And then following that, November 17th through the 18th, in Quakertown, Pennsylvania, the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals is sponsoring the Quakertown Conference on Reform Theology at the Grace Bible Fellowship Church in Quakertown, Pennsylvania, featuring guests such as Kent Hughes, Peter Jones, Tom Nettles, Dennis Cahill, and Scott Oliphant.
The theme is For Still Our Ancient Foe, obviously a reference to Satan from the classic hymn by Martin Luther, A Mighty Fortress. If you'd like to register for that conference, go to alliancenet .org, alliancenet .org, click on events, and then click on Quakertown Conference on Reform Theology.
And then we have the G3 Conference, returning to Atlanta, Georgia, January 17th through the 20th, on the theme Knowing God, a Biblical Understanding of Discipleship. January 17th is an exclusive event for Spanish-speaking Christians, or anyone that's a Spanish-speaking individual, and from the 18th through the 20th, we have the Conference in English, featuring Paul Washer, Stephen Lawson, Voti Baucom, H .B. Charles, Jr., Tim Challies, Josh Bice, James White, Tom Askell, Anthony Mathenia, Michael Kruger, David Miller, Paul Tripp, Todd Friel, Derek Thomas, and Martha Peace.
If you would like to register for the G3 Conference, go to g3conference .com, g3conference .com, and please, if you either register for any of these events, or you just contact the hosting ministries for more details, please always mention to them that you heard about their conferences and special events on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
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But if you are blessed above and beyond your ability to fulfill those commands of God, we ask of you to please consider sponsoring Iron Sharpens Iron Radio or donating to it with whatever means you can financially.
Ironsharpensironradio .com is the website address, and click on support. If you want to advertise with us, whether it's your church, your parachurch ministry, your business, your professional practice like a law firm or medical practice, your special event that you're having, whatever it is, as long as what you're doing is compatible with the theology expressed on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com and put advertising in the subject line, and I would love to speak with you about advertising with us as soon as possible.
And once again, the email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com. And that is also the email address to ask a question of our guest, Pastor Mark Grimaldi of Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Long Island, New York in Merrick.
And Pastor Mark, the question that was asked by our listener Joe in Slovenia before we went to the break, I'm going to abbreviate it this time. In summary, Joe in Slovenia says, according to God's inter-Trinitarian goodness, majesty, holiness and glory, does that not inherently necessitate that he create within the universe the ability of a free moral agent to rebel against him and introduce evil and all its horrible consequences?
And if you could answer that question to the best of your ability. Yeah, I mean, I think what he's saying,.
I think what he's saying, I don't know that I would say that it would obligate God in that sense, more than I might say that. I think what he's saying is a valid point, and I would come in that direction, though.
I would say something very similar to confines of what would end up in chapter four, after having dealt with the reality of evil exists, God not being the author of evil, dealing with issues related to God's decree of will.
I get into this in this section, God's decree of will and the reality of evil, bringing those two facts together. How do we bring those things together? How can they be reconciled, the might of what's gone over, what I've gone over earlier in the book?
And I preface that chapter, or I begin that chapter, by fighting evil or death or suffering. It's not something that he has enjoyment in and so on. And again, I quote from Ezekiel in there as well, what we went over before.
And then I get into two questions. One is, why then ordain a creation that might fall? So I just ask that question first, putting in the form of a possibility. Why then ordain a creation that might fall?
And in that particular section, I deal with just the design of God, or the will of God to design different types of creatures, different quality of creatures, right, animal types. Obviously, there's angelic beings, and then human beings created in his image, and just the glory in that, and the different types of creatures, and one, some being morally responsible, some with the animals, having animal instincts, and et cetera, not having the same moral responsibility that we have, not being created in God's image, and just the beauty and glory in that.
But then I come to the more important question, is why then ordain a creation that will fall? And it gets into a little bit with what our brother was saying there. And when you look at Scripture, what's very clear is that the ultimate end for all things, and we would know this through Reform, and following the principles of the Reformation, is the ultimate end of all things is God being glorified, right?
It's his glory. Why does he create anything? Why does he do anything? It's for his glory. It's not that God is, you know, the Trinity is at some point, again, we're talking human terms here, lonely and saying, you know, we need something to entertain us, let's change the channel, let's create something and try to get something that can help fulfill us in some way.
That's nothing at all about why God creates. God has an intent and purpose in creating, and it doesn't benefit him in any way in the sense that he lacks anything. And so when he does create, he has a purpose to feel his own glory.
It's not to benefit himself, but to be glorified in that, and he is glorified when you look at scripture in revealing himself, in revealing things about himself to his angelic creatures, to those who he creates, to lesser beings.
He enjoys revealing things about him that are not present, and when you look at the question about why ordain a creation that will fall, one thing that comes out of a fallen creation, and this, again, in some way joins that God's and mercy found way, right?
There is no sin in any of that part. That portion of God, let's say, if I can word it, that merciful character is revealed, and also God's justice in the sense of dealing with wickedness and exposing his holiness, and this goes in line with what our brother said, even his goodness.
All those things come out in the context of a fallen world, and so when we think about why then ordain a creation that will fall, you get into Ephesians chapter 3, that he does all things to glorify himself, 2 Thessalonians 1, 10, and then especially Romans 9, 21 and 24, where Paul's writing, again, he's writing here within the context of a world that has fallen, but still what Paul says here is very revealing.
It says here, does not the potter have power over the clay from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? What if God, wanting to show his wrath and to make his power known, endured with much long-suffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
So one reason why God endures the wickedness of man and allows it to continue, and has a world where there are creatures who are fallen and who remain in that condition, is he's going to measure their sin, and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy which he had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom he called the Jews only, but also the Gentiles.
And so God has this determined desire to reveal as well his mercy and his grace to those who he chooses out of his complete grace to redeem, to redeem out of this sin. We are worthy of condemnation with everyone else, we deserve it.
The only difference between us and anyone condemned, ultimately, is the grace of God. It's nothing to do with us, anything that we do or any good in us, inherently in us. And so God chooses to reveal his gracious character, his character of mercy and grace, to forgive and to show compassion to sinners is revealed in a fallen world in a very powerful way.
And so you see that throughout scripture as well, that God has that desire to expose, to reveal himself, to show, and his angelic beings see that and they fall down in worship. Certainly we, the redeemed, see that and fall down in worship, and he glorifies God.
Again, he doesn't need it, he doesn't meditate, he feeds on in that sense, but he's glorified in revealing who he is. And so that would, I think that would fall in line with some of what our brother was saying in that question about showing his goodness and etc.
Well thank you Joe in Slovenia, and thank you also for providing an American address where your daughter lives in Georgia so that Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service can ship that out to you more affordably.
It can ship, I should say, the book that you've just won out to you more affordably, and that's Evil and Suffering in a Sovereign God's World by our guest Mark J. Grimaldi. So have your daughter in Georgia, keep an eye out in the mail for this book which is being given out, compliments of our friends at Redemption Press, and also compliments of our friends at the Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, C .V. for Cumberland Valley, B .B .S. for BibleBookService .com, C .V. BBS .com, and we thank Todd and Patty Jennings for their faithful support of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
I also want to give a plug to Redemption Press, their website is Redemption-Press .com, that's Redemption-Press .com. Let's see, we have another overseas listener, we have Murray in Kinross, Scotland.
I understand that God made man in his image for knowing that man would commit evil, as this would serve his divine purpose, but how do we reconcile this view with the thought in Genesis 6, verse 6, that the Lord was sorry that he made man on the earth and he was grieved in his heart.
Obviously, Pastor Mark, you and I know that we are no strangers to the fact that the Reformed Baptist world is amidst a conflict over the emotions of God and whether or not they are always anthropomorphism.
But anyway, interesting question, a very good question by Murray.
Yeah, excellent question. And that does get down to the issues that have divided an entire association, as you said, Chris. And certainly there are different ways that people would understand that text.
Again, coming from an emotional sense to God, and we've got to be careful there, not uncontrollable emotions that just go up and down, but godly affections and emotions that are there. There's a real sense, as I said, in thinking about this, trust God with all our hearts, our own understanding, acknowledge him in all our ways, he'll direct our paths, there are secret things that belong to God.
In other words, we don't understand all these things fully, none of us do, you say that in the book as well. But that being said, I believe as you look at this, as I said, there's a real genuine sense in which God despises and hates evil, he does not delight in it, he has no joy in it, and at the same time there's a real compassionate side of God, even toward sinners, in the sense it doesn't necessarily mean that it's leading everyone to be saved, we know that, but a compassion in the sense that he doesn't rejoice in the death of the wicked.
And I think we see that, and again I know my other brothers in the Reformed circles that disagree with me would say this is just the humanity of Christ, but I believe it's a reflection of the divine nature as well in Christ, we do see that with Christ, in his compassion, even his weeping over Jerusalem, and over the people of Jerusalem and the judgment that was to come.
Again, God ordained all things, we know that, but at the same time there's something there in the reality of God's heart, if I can use that term in some sanctified sense, where he does legitimately have a sense of concern or compassion toward what's going on, and doesn't delight in that.
And I think in Genesis 6 I do think there's some anthropomorphic language there as well, obviously God is not without knowledge of what took place there, and he's not aware of that that would happen and what was going to happen and so on, he's very aware of that, but he does convey to us in a sense of language that we can understand, that we can appreciate and identify with, how he views the condition of mankind.
And so it comes out in the sense of tears, in the sense of, you know, I regret what I've done, I regret in creating you, you know, I regret in making mankind, when I see this evil, God really pardoned in a sense by the evil of the world.
At the same time, even though he's utilizing that very evil to accomplish, again, the whole thing is spilling out into an ocean that's going to accomplish his perfect will and be glorified, the evil itself and the intentions of those who are committing the evil acts, which again, belong to them, in a sense grieves God.
Again, put that in a sanctified sense, he doesn't have feelings the way we do, he doesn't have, you know, but I think there's a reality to that is what I'm saying, and again, there are people who disagree with me, but I also do think there's some anthropomorphic language there as well, in seeking to identify with us.
But I think everything that God does in Scripture is anthropomorphic, right? I mean, for God being words and letters, is anthropomorphic in a sense, so everything in one sense is anthropomorphic. But there's a reality, I think there's a reality to that as well, and at the same time, again, it comes back to God's secretive will and his revealed will.
He hates sin, he doesn't approve of it, injustice is something that grieves him in that sense, and at the same time, he's ordaining all of that for good purposes, to glorify himself,.
To exalt Christ. I hope that's helpful. Yes, yes, I'm sure it was, and the Scriptures tell us that God does not delight in the destruction or the death of the wicked, and yet, he kills the wicked, you know?
He's doing something that he does not delight in, and so you have these things going on at the same time. You know, Chris, and you're saying that just real quick,.
So I don't forget this thought, maybe in some sense, what you just said, if you remember back when Saddam Hussein was caught, and before he was tried by his own people, and they had to publicize the trials, and ultimately he was hung for his crimes, there's a real sense in which you can see that, and even see the pictures, and see what's going on, and grieve for that man, and seeing a life taken, and seeing the sorry condition of this man, and what happened to him, and at the same time, there's a real sense in which you're saying justice was done, it was right, that needed to take place, and it was proper, and it should have been done, and so that it's not like you're saying justice should be done, and we're, and we have joy over someone dying, like we like to see people killed, and that's the end, and that's how they wind up, and they've destroyed others in their own lives, there's nothing joyful in that for us, or there shouldn't be at least, but at the same time, there's a sense in which you say, yeah, that's justice, that needs to be done, and maybe that in some small way, you know, project that into the infinite God, there's a sense in which God is glorified, very much so, in his righteousness, and his justice, and at the same time, there's a sense in which it's not a joyful thing to see ruin, and destruction, you know, and so on, and maybe in some small way, that can picture it.
Yeah, in fact, I think it's even more vividly pictured with the torturous murder of Muammar Gaddafi. Now, we could argue, or debate, or disagree amongst Christians as to whether those military, our military involvement with Saddam Hussein, and other things like that, are necessary, or even a good thing, because of the fact that when you topple a Islamic leader, who is only a nominal Muslim, and they're replaced with somebody that is bringing about Sharia law, and making it even more difficult for Christians as missionaries to exist, but at the same time, it was still justice.
I mean, these men did not deserve to live, and Muammar Gaddafi, when you're watching him being beaten, and then prying up for mercy, it's hard for me to sit there laughing, or taking an extreme joy in that, even though...
And there would be a problem with you, Chris,.
If you did that, and there are people who will do that, maybe they just do it amongst friends,.
And you know, they have beers in their hands. I believe Hillary Clinton was laughing when it.
Was going on, as far as the news. Yeah, and I think that that's certainly evidence of an ungodly spirit in Hillary Clinton's case, obvious, but even for a Christian, certainly, that should never be.
Something that we could see as a joyful thing. I'm going to go to our final break, and I already forwarded you an email from Gordy in Mechanicsburg, and I forwarded it to you, not because it's a lengthy question, but it may take you some time to contemplate his question, even though it's a brief question.
Gordy in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania says, Dear Pastor Mark, given your close proximity to Manhattan, what was the most common question you encountered in the aftermath of the September 11th, 2001 World Trade Center tragedy, and what was your response?
I thought I'd give you a little bit of time to contemplate that important question, as we take our final break right now. If anybody would like to join us, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.
Chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away. We'll be right back with the conclusion of our program with Mark Rimaldi on evil and suffering in a sovereign God's world. Don't go away. We'll be right back.
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Blesses you for many years to come. Hi, I'm Pastor Bill Shishko, inviting you to tune in to.
A visit to the pastor's study every Saturday from 12 noon to 1 p .m. Eastern Time on WLIE Radio, www .wlie540am .com. We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you, and we invite you to visit the pastor's study by calling in with your questions.
Our time will be lively, useful, and I assure you never dull. Join us this Saturday at 12 noon Eastern Time for a visit to the pastor's study because everyone needs a pastor. Welcome back, this is Chris Arnzen, if you just tuned us in.
Our guest today for the last 90 minutes and the next half hour to come has been and will be Mark Rimaldi, a pastor at Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Long Island, New York in Merrick, and we are discussing his book, Evil and Suffering in a Sovereign God's World.
If you'd like to join us, I would do it now before we run out of time. If you have a question for Mark Rimaldi, our email is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com, and Gordie in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania before the break asked you, Dear Pastor Mark, given your close proximity to Manhattan, what was the most common question you encountered in the aftermath of September 11, 2001 at the World Trade Center tragedy, and what was your response?
And I'm starting to wonder as my mind goes back to that time, were you even a Christian at that time, Mark?
Yeah, yeah, I was, Chris. In fact, I'll never forget it because I was actually church janitor at the time, and I was in the back of the church. So you were already doing the role of a pastor in most churches.
Correct. It doesn't get any cleaner than that, cleaning toilets.
But, well, yeah, if you could answer Gordie's question.
Yeah, yeah, that's a good question. You know, it's interesting the way when that had happened, you had kind of two different responses that were going on, and I think there were, and you had people would say, oh, he was in the cockpit, you know, in God's judgment, you know, and I thought that was an insensitive way to address it, to go to say it like that, and then I'd get other people who were more, you know, just would try to act as if God had no part in it, and, you know, God couldn't do anything to prevent it.
It was manual and so on, etc., etc., and so both of those would do more damage than good, and the way that I would have answered that kind of question that came up, sadly, in New York State, there wasn't as much, even what happened right here, of those kinds of questions going around because people in New York, you know, by and large, they have a shallow understanding of God, if any, or it's in that sense, in general, the general atmosphere here is very poor from a religious standpoint, from a Christian standpoint, and so on, but when that question was asked, what I had done, and somebody preached a message at the point, it might have been Pastor Rich Gospel, actually, that I thought was very helpful in addressing that situation.
It was from Luke's Gospel, chapter 13, when the Lord Jesus had spoken about the Tower of Siloam that had fallen down, and it fell onto those people, and they were killed, and Jesus says, hey, you know, don't think that because they died that they were worse sinners than anybody else, but you need to repent or you likewise will perish.
There was that understanding. Oftentimes, we see that in the Scripture, with Job as well, where it's like, okay, if something bad happens to someone, well, they must have been the real bad guys, and so that was, that's a dangerous way of thinking, and Jesus points that out there as well, and one of the things I tried to say is, look, it's not, there were people who were in those towers who were, there were all kinds of people in those towers, and I don't know, you know, and for one person, it could have been, you know, God's time to bring them all in the glory at whatever age they were, and for others, it could have been a form of judgment, and so on, and there's different means, but I tried to use the message to those who I would be speaking to, so we went around and talked about, we're addressing, I think, believe it or not, one of the greatest questions that was asked, or that was, that came about, was through the slogan, God bless America, right?
Everybody kept saying, God bless America, you know, these colors don't run, God bless America, and so the way I had addressed it was by asking the question, should I act for that at the time, and just went over, you know, our country, and where we were, where, and how far we've regressed, and, and, you know, that the shields of the earth belong to God, when we see these things happening, you know, without judging the nation or not, and that's the reality, looking at the overall picture of our nation, and seeing is, is there some message that we can take from this, from the Lord, should we not examine ourselves in the light of what happened with those powers, and the light, the fact that we would penetrate in that way, having, having been such a great nation for so long, and, and just addressing that, you know, what kind of a nation does God bless, and defining that, looking at the beatitudes, getting into the gospel, so that was kind of more the direction that I went into, certainly seeing it as God's sovereignty, very much not afraid to proclaim that, again, not, not casting judgment on those who were killed, because Christian or not, where do you stand to the signs of things we should learn in light of what we've seen happen,.
So I think that's kind of the way I went with that, Chris. Yes, and I remember Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries preached a sermon, or wrote an article, either one, I can't remember specifically right now, but it was three days after 9 -11, and his theme was God Bless America.
With Repentance. Yes, that was excellent, very, very, I remember that, Chris, and that's always.
Stuck with me, definitely, you're right. And one of the things that really disturbed me, while I was working, as you may remember, at WMCA Radio, and at that time they were in East Rutherford, New Jersey, and they had a opportunity for pastors all over the tri-state area to record their own words of encouragement, or their words of response to what happened during this tragedy, and although there were some really good ones, especially because there were some that I got on the air through pastors that I know, there were some ones that made the hair on the back of my neck stand up.
You had pastors saying, you're gonna hear people saying that God had something to do with this, that's just heresy, that's nonsense, God had nothing to do with this. I'm like, really? So did Satan overpower God, or did the evil will of these Islamic terrorists somehow thwart God's perfect plan?
What are you talking about? He had nothing to do with it. In fact, you even have some who try to take a middle road, and I was wondering what your response is, because I'm not really happy with this either, because I even heard some folks that claim to be believers in God's sovereignty really try to soften God's sovereignty over this event, or any other event this horrific, by saying God allowed it to happen.
It's almost as if God's just like sitting there on his throne, watching, he goes, I'm gonna let this one pass, it's gonna go through, I'm not gonna do anything to stop it, but it's more than God just sitting there allowing.
Things to happen, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, Chris, that's the, that you're right, it is, they're trying in their own minds by saying that, that he'll, I think that, yeah, I agree with you, I think that that's not accurate at all, you know, we, what we have to do is, we're very evil and wicked, they, they, you know, they stab him and just be angry with him for what they did, and at the same time, God ordained that, and there's a greater deal with that, and maybe it led some to repentance too, I know there was a woman, by the way, this was encouraging, that I met recently over at the, an abortion clinic, she was outside protesting, you know, trying to preach the gospel to people to repent, and not to kill the babies, and etc., and she gave me her testimony, and she was actually saved, she was in the tower, she was, in fact, in one of the pictures, and she was saved through that, that's what the Lord used, one dot on the map of this big picture of what God's doing, he allowed it, again, I wouldn't be, I wouldn't be insensitive enough to say, oh, well, he was in the cockpit, and use that kind of language, but at the same time, the other, the other was saying that he allowed it, or he, you know, you know, to me, Chris, there's, in one sense, there's nothing worse, and I get, I get into this, we'll talk about, I give a chapter called, a little time talking about what it would be like if God were not all-sovereign, if this were not the case, just in case there's any sense of people still saying, well, I'm not happy about this, and I get into some of those things, and I go through biblical history, and I address things, and I say, you know, there's nothing worse to me than to think for a moment that any of these events are purposeless, are not, are not in some way intended by God to accomplish a greater purpose, even the slightest, but when it talks about all things working together for good for the Christian, it's encouraging to know that every single detail in my life, even all responsible, accountable, that I know there's a purpose in this, there's a purpose in why this is the way, there's a purpose in why this person suffered, there's a purpose in why these children are not, are starving to death in certain countries, or whatever it might be.
If you tell me there's no purpose in any of that, I see that as more of an infringement on God's goodness, that, you know, that there's no purpose, that he's not using it for a purpose.
That's worse to me. Amen. And you have also won a free copy of this book we are discussing, Evil and Suffering in a Sovereign God's World, by Mark J. Grimaldi. Please make sure we have your full mailing address so that we can have that shipped out to you.
We have Casey, originally from the Philippines, now living in Kannapolis, North Carolina. He's asking a question that we already addressed what he said, but maybe you can think of something to add to it, especially since there might have been people who missed the first part of the program.
Casey asks, when doing apologetics, how can we answer questions about evil and suffering from a Reformed rather than Arminian perspective? Most apologists seem to put an overemphasis on free will and the fall of Adam and Eve, yet the Bible makes it clear that God's sovereignty and fore knowledge of these events was infallible.
Thank you for answering my question. In fact, one thing that we really didn't talk about, if you want to talk about the foreknowledge aspect of what Casey is asking about, as you know, there are a heretical group of Christians known as open theists.
And they say that if you are consistent in Arminianism, because they actually call themselves consistent Arminians, that God cannot know everything in the future, because according to the common way foreknowledge is viewed by even Arminians, is that God just looks through the corridors of time, and being omniscient, he knows what's going to happen, and he acts accordingly, and so on, which would, in contradiction to what God actually says in his word, that would actually make him a respecter of persons, because he's acting according to the way people are acting in the future, which is obviously not what the Bible teaches.
But if you could comment on what foreknowledge really is, it's not just knowing something that's going to happen in the future, it's more of the fact that he knows in the sense, I mean the word know is used in different ways, like in the Garden of Eden, about Adam knowing Eve, it's a relational word.
But if you could explain. Yeah, yeah, Chris, and I think you were just hitting on it right.
There. Yeah, the word foreknowledge, it can be used in two different ways, and the context is really important. Certainly it can be used in the sense of knowing something that's going to happen before it happens, right?
That's obvious. But when it's used in that way, it's talking about specific events. Whenever it's used in that way, it's always talking about a specific event that would take place. The thing about that word foreknowledge in Romans is it's talking about God foreknowing people, foreknowing them.
And when it's used in that way, it doesn't mean, it has nothing to do with knowing what would happen, or events, and so on. It has to do with that God has to those people, setting His love upon them. In fact, in Romans, chapter, I believe it's chapter 11, when Paul deals with the issue of Israel, he talks about that God has not done completely with Israel in the sense that He's always will be saving some.
You know, He hasn't completely abandoned them as a remnant, and so on. He says He could, you know, I don't remember the exact wording, but something along the lines of using that very word, people whom He foreknew.
And the idea there is there were people that He had set His love upon beforehand. He knows them in a very intimate and personal way. And that's what God has done for His people. But right before time, He has set His love upon them in Christ.
Ephesians chapter 1 is a great description, in some ways, of foreknowledge. You know, who have been set apart in the Beloved. God has set His heart upon them. And it's pictured very well, Chris, in what you said.
In the Old Testament, they use language that we're not as familiar with today. You don't say today when you get married, hey, you know, I knew my wife yesterday. You know, it's just not the way we would use it, but it really means when someone knows, when someone knew his wife, it's when they get married, right?
It's when they're sexually intimate. There's that intimacy that took place, and He knew her. That's what it means. He knew her in that sense, in that intimate way. And so that carries over into the way God views His people in that sense, in a sanctified sense, obviously.
And that's what the word means. Again, foreknew people, not events. That's not what the text is saying.
And don't get me wrong, the open theists are seriously and dangerously heretical.
Oh, absolutely.
But they make a good point, though, don't they? Because they will say to the Arminians, hey, if you're going to be consistent, and if you're going to be consistent and logically consistent when you criticize Calvinists by saying that God is unloving for ordaining horrific events to occur, you're no better, because God saw that they would happen and did nothing about it.
He just sat idly by and counted sparrows or something while it was going on. But there is a point to be made by the open theists, because if Arminians are going to be consistent, this is really where they would wind up, by saying that God really doesn't know everything in the future.
Yeah, one of the things that brings great joy to my heart is that I know that there are a lot of good who are going to be in glory, wonderful, wonderful people who someone would put, but I'm thankful, most of all, that they're inconsistent.
I'm thankful in that sense for the inconsistency, because if there were doctrines in a lot of areas that are wrong, in every sense of the word, with that kind of a doctrine, you would wind up with the open theists, which is blatant heresy.
The Arminian is what makes, to me, is what, you know, people...
Yeah, I've said on this program before that the only way that an Arminian can have a peaceful night's sleep, knowing that those he has loved died without Christ, is to borrow from a Calvinist worldview and theology.
How could you sleep peacefully knowing that if I only witness to that person one more time, or more articulately, or more compassionately, or more kindly, you know, you could go on and on and on, because if the Arminian scheme was true, they would be guilty of the damnation, in part, of everyone they know and love that was lost when they perished.
Yeah, yeah, as they say in the expression, too,.
Everybody's an Arminian when they pray, right, when they're on their knees. I mean, not Arminian, no, Calvinist. Everybody's a Calvinist when they pray, you know, we're praying to God because we know, and you're right, Chris, that would tear me apart mentally, who was in my hands, and I didn't like it as we thought, well, God's going to do what he's going to do, kind of like how they treated William Carey and others.
No, God wants to save the heathen, he'll do it on his own time. We don't want to see that. There should be a drive and a motivation. I can kind of be a fatalist in a sense, but the other extreme definitely is that, you know, definitely.
We have Tyler in Mastic Beach, Long Island, New York, who says, is it true that most non-Christians will not take account of responsibility for their own sin in regards to the evil in the world? I guess you would have to be omniscient to know that.
But I'm assuming you could at least say that it's a prevalent thing, right?
Yeah, I mean, right, that's on people, the deception of the devil, that's over people, and so on. Either they're, I mean, we know in Romans chapter 1, you know, that they're suppressing the truth of God in any sense, in their own conscience, and all those things, there's a suppression going on, a willful suppression, which shows that they're still accountable and guilty.
But yeah, I mean, I'm sure they would deny things, they would go by their own standard, which is very short, you know, they're not looking at God's standard. But once you cut God out of the picture, and you're not looking to understand God, your view of everything else shatters, and so you wind up with, yeah, you know, I'm not really that bad, or at least, you know, I'm not a, you know, I'm a conservative, so I'm saved.
Or even those who are liberal would say, oh, you know, I believe in freedom, people love people of the same sex, you know, like I'm loving toward them, and so I think it's good to just, you know, to encourage them, you know.
So everybody's going by their own kind of rules, it's the book of judges, you know, everybody's doing what's right in their own eyes. So I don't know the direct answer to your question, you're right, as far as how many, or whatever, but certainly there's got to be something that people can do to justify themselves.
So that they could spare. Well, thank you, Tyler, and this goes for Casey in Kannapolis, North Carolina, too. I don't know if I mentioned this, but you are both also winning, or have won a Evil and Suffering in a Sovereign God's World, compliments of Mark Romaldi and of Redemption Press, and also compliments of our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, who will be shipping these books out to you.
Please make sure we have your full mailing address so that Todd and Patty Jennings can have those shipped out to you in the very near future. And keep your eye open for a package with an address label, a return address on the shipping label that says CVBBS .com, CV for Cumberland Valley, BBS for BibleBookService .com, CVBBS .com.
And, in fact, we could even say that it's even more tragic. Tyler asked about non-Christians not taking account, taking responsibility for their own sins. Many times we have people in the body of Christ doing that, but we would say, if we believe in the perseverance and preservation of the saints, that they ultimately will, after they go through a period of wickedness, that the Lord will always restore them, that God's true children will never become totally apostate and disown Him or their responsibility.
Yeah, yeah, that they would be led, that the.
Spirit of God is who can grieve the Spirit, to lead people, to allow them to go astray even further and so on, but yeah, He's not going to leave them in that condition or allow them to go apostate. If they're truly His children, He's going to bring them back, and if they don't come back, then it's just evidence that they never were really converted, that they're like one of the three souls.
Encouraging for a time, but for some reason or another, you know. CJ in Lindenhurst,.
Long Island, New York asks, don't you think that at times Christians far too often will assign reasons for calamity and misery and evil occurring that God never makes clear? For instance, you will have tornadoes sweeping through certain areas, and the immediate response is that was definitely because there was a large population of homosexuals there, and you can go on and on with the scenarios.
Don't we need to be careful not to assign reasons that God had in His mind that we do not and cannot.
Possibly know? Yeah, Chris, I would agree with that. We know that God is sovereign, we know that there are forms of judgment involved in those kinds of things, again, who are brought home through that experience, churches are destroyed, you know, God is using that for good in some way to sanctify and grow the people there, whatever it might be, and say, well, there's a great population of homosexuality there.
To me, I would avoid that kind of language. We don't know fully what God is doing. What we need to do is learn from that, benefit from it, see general patterns, apply it, problematic, and people get into trouble with that.
Could we not, though, appropriately say.
If there was a place, I mean, you could go on and on about Greenwich Village or San Francisco or something where you have a lot of open rebellion, and it might, like, let's say that there was some kind of a calamity or natural disaster during a gay pride march.
Could we not at least say, look at the danger of waving your fist in God's face and being in rebellion because you never know when his calamity will strike? Yeah, yeah, I think so, and I think you have.
A Scripture like that happen. Like I said, you can have a situation where there's, you know, if we hear about these things, Scripture to that as well, you know, and encourage the families and etc. But yeah, I would definitely say that, you know, when you look in Scripture, there are times when God brings an immediate judgment on someone, you know, to set an example.
You know, you have Sodom and Gomorrah, you have certainly what happened with the Flood, but you have examples of Nadab and Abihu, you have what happened later, Priest Eli, Hophni and Phinehas, and sometimes God brings judgment on people like that for their wickedness.
Sometimes it's immediate, sometimes he waits a little while. Whatever might be, we all know sometimes God does that. I think in general, while we can make those statements at times, you know, we need to be careful with it, but I think the bigger issue is to make sure that we learn from it and apply it.
How are we applying what God is saying to us? Because we're now the ones God is speaking to through that message. Those people have died, you know, they're dealing with their eternal destiny,.
That's it, they're done. Yes, and in fact, some people, I'm sure you would agree, either consciously or unconsciously, are distracting the focus away from themselves and feeling superior to others by saying, look at them, it's their fault this happened, has nothing to do with me or anybody in my church or the way we're living, and obviously they could be overlooking a great evil in their own minds and hearts and amidst their own people if they are doing things like that.
Yeah, yeah, in fact, when you.
Look during the time of Christ, you know, the people that he most adamantly condemned and spoke out against, whether these weren't the people who were out there prostituting themselves, you know, doing drugs or whatever and all that, he was reaching out with the gospel and compassion to those who were some of the most heinous sinners.
And so that's why I would be careful in the sense, especially where we're seeing ourselves in many ways as self-righteous, where people would look, especially some of the people who are unconverted, they say, well, look, those guys were a bunch of, you know, meanwhile, these people were saying that, you know, maybe their sin is not homosexuality, but maybe their sin is covetousness or greed or maybe, you know, they don't know the Lord in truth and they have other, you know, they're watching pornography or they're adulterers, whatever it is, could be different form of sin, and so that's where we need to be careful, too, and then, you know, well, look at these guys, they're the worst, and I feel better about myself.
No, Jesus said with the Tower of Siloam, you know, no, don't think that they were worse than you, you know, but you.
Repent or you likewise will perish. Well, thank you so much, Pastor Mark, for being on the program. I look forward to having you back. In fact, if you could hold on, I'd like to schedule another interview with you when we go off the air.
Sure. And the Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Long Island and Merrick, New York can be found at gracereformedbaptistchurch .com, gracereformedbaptistchurch .com. Redemption Press, who's published this book that we have been discussing, can be found at redemption-press .com, redemption-press .com.
And of course, you could always purchase books by our guests through Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, CV, bbs .com, CV for Cumberland Valley, bbs for BibleBookService .com. Just ask Todd and Patty Jennings to order it for you if they don't already have it in stock.
I want to thank my co-host, Reverend Buzz Taylor, for being here today in studio. I want to thank everybody who listened, especially those who submitted questions, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner, and we look forward to hearing from you tomorrow with your questions for our guests on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.