Interaction At The Mormon General Conference

Apologia Studios

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

00:00

Since you've seen the video, you can have the track that goes with it. Oh, sweet, dude, yeah. I'm a Democrat in a majority

00:05

Republican church, so it's like I'm already used to people, you know. Oh, OK. So, yeah. So, yeah, it's good stuff.

00:12

So, what did they talk about so far today? The importance of—the theme that I noticed was the importance of being a witness of Jesus Christ, that that's really vital, that Christ is alive, and because He's alive, we have to be the living emissaries of Him, too, you know, because He's so good and He loves us so much.

00:30

And the gospel just changes lives. Yeah. And so it's that opportunity to go out in the world and say, hey,

00:37

Jesus, He died on a cross for your sins, you know, and He's resurrected. And because of that, you can be forgiven of your sins.

00:43

And it's so good, right, to be forgiven by grace and all these things. What's your name, by the way? Braxton.

00:48

Braxton, I'm Wade. Wade. This is Ryan. OK, nice to meet you. So, my only question to that is 2

00:54

Corinthians chapter 11 says— Can I pull it up? Yeah, you can pull it up.

01:00

I use—oh, sorry. These things don't like to stay in. They really don't. Yeah, I like to use the NRSV, if that's

01:05

OK. Yeah, pull it up, pull it up. Sweet. Yeah, we're not with the group that are really particular about—

01:10

OK, like KGV or things like that? Yeah, yeah. I know there's a group down in, I think,

01:16

Mesa where the apology is that it's like really KGV -only. Yeah, Stephen Anderson.

01:23

Yeah, Stephen Anderson. Yeah, he kind of scares me. Some of our pastors tend to attract that particular group.

01:30

Yeah, and so you said 1 Corinthians. 2 Corinthians chapter 11. 11,

01:35

OK. OK, go up. Yeah. Go up a little more. OK. All right, actually, the other way.

01:41

I'm sorry. Go to verse 4. Verse 4. For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or you receive a different spirit from the one you've received, or a different gospel from the one you've accepted, you submit to it readily enough.

01:55

He's actually speaking to them— Kind of like connections 1, right? Yeah, he's kind of speaking to them in a negative way, where it's like, come on,

02:02

Corinthians, there's going to be those who bring a different gospel, a different Jesus, and a different spirit, and you put up with it readily enough, he's challenging them, and so Jesus even says there's going to be people who say they're

02:16

Christ. Here I am. And he says, don't believe them, right? And there's people at the end of time, at the consummation of all things, who will say,

02:25

Lord, Lord, didn't we do all these things in your name? So the question is, Braxton, how do we know that the

02:33

LDS church, the evangelical church, or Muslims, or Jews, or whoever talks about Jesus in any way, can anyone just say whatever they want about Jesus, and that makes it

02:45

Jesus? Right, that's a great question. So how do you know, since we're even warned in Scripture that there can be a different Jesus, how do you know you have the correct one?

02:56

Yeah, that's a great question. It's epistemologically weighty, right? Oh, man.

03:02

And that's something to reflect on. Yeah, let me think about that. Sure, sure. Yeah.

03:08

Yeah, it's just because, you know, Muslims will say he was a prophet.

03:15

They say he was a prophet. They call him the Messiah, but the

03:20

Qur 'an doesn't give any explanation of what that means. Right. Even atheists will often have good things to say about Jesus that make him...

03:30

Jehovah's Witness will say that he was Michael the archangel, things like that. Very few people will say things that they know to be derogatory about Jesus.

03:39

Right. And usually they're just edged lords on Reddit anyway. Right. But the question is, who is he? Right. It reminds me, like,

03:45

C .S. Lewis, he was like, liar, lunatic, or lord, right? And what kind of person?

03:51

Yeah, I think that's, I guess I'd say that, like this is obviously not the well -thought -out answer, this is just the instinctual.

03:57

Sure, you have no research in front of you. I'd say one stick of it is

04:02

Scripture, right? What is... I guess you first have to establish a case for why you should trust

04:08

Scripture, right? You can't just assume that Scripture is the Word of God. But how do you know? And then once you figure that out,

04:13

I guess, if you know that God has breathed, you know, his Word into Scripture, you can trust that.

04:21

You know, that the people that he's put into places to speak through him, obviously, you know, you had throughout history,

04:27

Elijah, you know, all these figures, Moses, these prophets to speak for him. And then

04:33

I think reason's part of it. I think, you know, we can think about here's evidences for things, you know, evidence that the resurrection actually happened.

04:40

And I think if Christ was resurrected, then he has to be who he says he was. Right, exactly. Oh, for sure, I think that seals the deal, for lack of a better term.

04:48

So... And then, yeah, I guess personal relationship and communication is another part, maybe.

04:55

I don't know. I appreciate that. We all think. Thank you for sharing that. The reason I bring it up is because I think it's so important.

05:04

Jesus asks even the apostles, who do the people say that I am? And they say, some say you're

05:11

Elijah. Some say you're the prophet. Some say you're this. Some say you're that. Some even say you're

05:16

Jeremiah. Sure. It's like, and then he says, but who do you say that I am? And Peter says with this prophetic utterance that Jesus even confirms, you could have only gotten that from the

05:27

Father. He says, you are the Christ, the son of the living God. And that has more weight to it than just being son of God.

05:36

What that has in it, there's connotations in that, that he is as Jesus says he is.

05:42

I am. So, Google at some point, Braxton, the I am statements of Jesus.

05:50

Particularly in the Gospel of John, the I am statements. The I am comes from, do you know what that comes from?

05:57

From like the Exodus 3, burning bush. Yeah, I will be what I will be. Yes, I am who I am.

06:02

I will be who I will be. Yeah, exactly. From the burning bush. God himself, Yahweh, Jehovah, identifies himself.

06:10

And Jesus equates himself to that. So, we're getting into a little bit of a triune thing. But I'll let you guys speak real quick.

06:18

It's good that you brought that up. Because what he's saying in that passage, I'm sure you're aware. And that's what differentiates him from all false gods.

06:28

At least the ancient world. He's saying, I have always been this.

06:34

And I will always be this. God has always been God from all of eternity. And so, when we hear people come in and say, well,

06:42

God is an exalted man. That he used to be a human just like us. Lucifer's spirit brother.

06:48

Right, yeah, I get that. This whole plan and then became God. And you can become gods too because you're essentially the same species.

06:56

What we recognize here is that what they're talking about is a totally different god from what's in here.

07:04

That's kind of the issue for why we're out here. It's not just for our health. Although, I have been working on my glutes a lot today.

07:11

Are you getting all that walking in? I'm not a cardio guy. But, you know, that's the fundamental issue.

07:16

It's the nature of God. Who he is, who we are, and what's the real relationship between us.

07:22

And that's the gospel issue. So, you know, what we're hearing from the Mormon church through their scripture, through their leadership, is

07:31

God is, you know, he's an exalted man. He may very well have sinned as he progressed.

07:39

Although, I know there's some discussion on that point. Definitely debate, yeah, for sure. That there are multiple gods going around.

07:44

That if you follow that same plan, then eventually you will become a god of your own planet.

07:51

Where if you follow the same pattern that Elohim did with this planet, the people on your planet will never even know that he existed.

08:00

There's a lot in that that's hugely, hugely problematic. And so, you know, when we're talking, people are saying, well,

08:07

God loves you. We're not talking about that god because it's just a totally different kind of being.

08:12

And the love that he shows in reality is not just different, but far greater than the love that they're talking about in that building.

08:22

And the gospel itself is far, far greater because it's not about how, you know,

08:28

God gives you an enabling power and then if you do this... Jesus was enabled and was able to go to the cross as a savior figure, right?

08:36

If you do X, Y, and Z, then you can have all of these different things.

08:43

And like the gospel is, a package deal that includes the gift of the

08:48

Holy Spirit dwelling inside of us. That it's complete forgiveness of sins, past, present, and future.

08:56

It's justification, meaning that God has declared us to be guilty because he recognizes our sinfulness.

09:02

But the sentence for that has been handed down and carried out on Christ, on the cross.

09:08

Can I hit that real quick too? And we'll let you speak real quick. Yeah. That's the biggest point actually where I wanted to get to was...

09:15

That's the amazing thing is not a once man and now elevated man slash deity.

09:23

Yeah. But the point is with him being the I Am, the Eternal Lord, is he condescended.

09:30

He stepped into his own creation. Because it says in John 1,

09:35

Hebrews 1, Colossians 1, that Jesus created all things. He was there, always been there.

09:41

And that's the amazing part of the gospel is God himself took on flesh.

09:48

He became like one of us. He lived a sinless and perfect life. And God actually, in Jesus Christ, he died upon a cross.

09:59

Right? And that's the biggest thing is in the atonement. If you just look ontologically, theologically, rationally, you were talking about reason earlier.

10:14

Scholars have determined, Christian scholars have seen that an elevated man, when you think about it, he could not pay for the sins of all of God's elect.

10:30

All those who would be Christ. Right. If he was just an elevated man, he couldn't atone for their sins.

10:38

Because he bears the eternal wrath of the Father upon himself. So, you and I, if Christ doesn't save us, we'll bear the weight of our own sin upon ourselves.

10:51

And what will be the cost? An eternity in hell and separation from God, as Scripture says.

10:57

Right? And that doesn't even pay for it. So, it's forever, forever, forever.

11:03

Right. Because we've offended and sinned against a holy and righteous eternal God. So, the punishment is eternal.

11:10

Yeah. And so, you know what I'm saying? A temporal person couldn't pay for the eternal wrath and condemnation for fallen humanity.

11:22

Yeah. It would need to be God himself. And so, that's, I'll let you speak at this point. But that's what we're concerned about.

11:28

Yeah. That's what we're concerned about is, Jesus was specific on who he is.

11:35

He says, I'm the way, the truth, and the life. So, he even calls himself the truth. Yeah. And so, there's got to be some defining lines of who

11:45

Jesus is and how he's demonstrated himself. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. What do you think of that? Well, first off,

11:51

I'll just say this, just to be brief. I respect that you guys are here because I think it is important.

11:57

I think that, you know, I think that we need you as much as you need us in the sense that, you know, 1

12:02

Peter 3 .15, right? We always have to be ready. So, it's like the fact that you're giving us an opportunity to kind of experience that, hey, this is what this perspective is that you guys have.

12:12

And that, you know, you have an opportunity to get that as well. And that's, I appreciate it. I appreciate you stopping because most people are like, meh.

12:19

Plenty of people have not apparently listened to the same messages that you did today. I love it.

12:25

I mean, the fact that you're here. Go out and be a witness. Be a witness. Amen. We're literally asking you to do exactly that.

12:30

Jesus is literally alive. So, it's like, why would I not? Right, right. He took a cross and, you know,

12:35

Bonhoeffer said, when Christ calls a man, he bids him come and die. So, that's how I want to be. I want to go die, you know.

12:42

And so, I want to be here. And so, I appreciate it because I know that you wouldn't be here if you guys didn't love us. And I love you guys too.

12:48

Thank you. Yeah, thank you, Braxton. Yeah, appreciate you. It's so good. I was thinking John 17 3 and this idea of also comparing, like, all the other religions in the world.

13:00

That every other religion in the world demands that man dies for God. And then there's only one where God dies for man.

13:09

It says, I'm willing to put this up. I'll put it all on the line. And, you know,

13:15

I'll let my son experience total separation from me so that you cannot experience total separation forever.

13:22

And that's just beautiful. And so, in terms of those other, trying to, there was a lot.

13:30

Yeah, yeah. There was a lot. Yeah, the nature of Jesus. So, again, in LDS doctrine and by the prophets, they would say other than what we just said.

13:39

And we think that that would change the gospel. As he said. Yeah. As Paul told the Corinthians.

13:45

Yeah. Someone's going to come. People are going to say this is Jesus. And so what we want for you is, it seems like you have this sincerity about you that I actually, this authenticity that I appreciate that I don't see all that often.

13:58

So I'm grateful for that. So we don't want to tear that apart. We want to see you, though, place that in the one true and living

14:07

God. Yeah. And that's that's how serious it is, because we would be at home on recliners. Right.

14:13

Eating Cheetos. I don't know. Whatever. But we come out here and we and we do this actually even in BYU every week.

14:19

We we're all we're called to do this because. Yeah. Yeah. OK. Idaho. So, yes.

14:25

All right. Yeah. We do this because there's fundamental differences that even

14:32

Jesus and his word demonstrates could be a separation point. Yeah. So I get that.

14:38

That makes sense. Yeah. And I think the gospel is vital. I think one thing that I that will, you know, will will frustrate me sometimes that I hear at church is people will like start talking about the gospel and then they'll pull out, you know, the missionary pamphlet, the gospel of Jesus Christ and the manual, the missionary pamphlets.

14:57

OK. OK. Gotcha. Gotcha. And, you know, they start talking about, like, you know, the the five step how we respond to the gospel.

15:04

And I'm like, friends, how you respond to the gospel is not the gospel. The gospel is the good news that Jesus came and lived a perfect life and died and resurrected.

15:12

And it's not it's not that, you know, you have this opportunity to do repentance and to unite yourself with him, although that's an important part of the gospel.

15:22

But the gospel itself is the news about it. The response to it's different. And so I almost never hear the gospel is vital.

15:29

People say that. Right. Yeah. So what would you say? First Corinthians 15. What would you say is the role of repentance in the gospel?

15:37

Like, do you have to repent? And as Spencer Kimball has said in Miracle of Forgiveness, to get to the point where you never do that sin again.

15:48

Yeah. Otherwise, you're not really forgiven. Sure. If, I mean, I'm not really in a position where I really have to defend

15:55

Spencer Kimball at all. Yeah. No, absolutely. If he's right about that, then

16:00

I think what we've been saying, at least what Pastor Wade and I have been saying and what the

16:06

Bible says is wrong. Like you would have to reach a point of perfection almost in order to even make sense.

16:13

Right. Yeah. The real miracle of forgiveness is that as God says in his word, while we were still sinners,

16:22

Christ died for us. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. So, I don't, if I was in a position where the church that I was in was saying, hey, you have to do

16:33

X, Y, and Z in order to become saved. Sure. And I'm looking at God's word. Yeah. Which, like you said, that's the standard.

16:40

Yeah. That's the standard. That saying, well, no, repentance isn't like that. It's a change of allegiance that we have.

16:48

Right, right. Metanoia, turning away from and calling Christ Lord instead of yourself or any other idol.

16:56

And so, the way I explain kind of what Ryan is saying, tell me what you think of this, Braxton, is what

17:02

I've often seen my LDS neighbors do is they're concerned that we preach like a free grace, a lawless antinomian grace.

17:14

Antinomianism is like heresy upon heresy. Yeah, yeah. Right, right, right. Yeah. So, but what we're concerned about is, you know, in the question, we've already talked about who's

17:22

Jesus. Now, we're moving on to what is the gospel? You articulate 1 Corinthians 15 and what

17:28

Christ has done. You know, underlying all that was who is

17:33

Jesus, that Jesus who died. But now, it's like what I'm concerned about is with the

17:38

LDS churches, if salvation were like a tree, right,

17:45

I'm concerned that the LDS organization has taken the total work of Jesus, the total work of Jesus, and then they've married the work of Jesus with their own works.

17:59

And then the tree of salvation, so to speak, comes forward from that. However, I think what overwhelmingly the

18:07

Bible would articulate is that the root of salvation is not Jesus' total work and ours work with him.

18:16

His work is the total work and only foundation. He's the only cornerstone for this salvation.

18:23

And then out pops this tree of salvation and there's fruit all on the branches, right?

18:28

Right. And that fruit is the good deeds that he has prepared beforehand for us to walk in.

18:35

Right, Ephesians 2. 2 .10. Yeah. Yeah, he's prepared for us to walk in.

18:42

No, you're good. And so, maybe

18:48

Brad Wilcox won't articulate it the way I just did, but the majority of prophets and doctrine has said that synergistic, you know, which means working together, right?

19:02

That work together generates our salvation. So that makes part of this covenant contingent upon you and I.

19:10

But I think the whole overwhelming message of Hebrews and the book of Hebrews and other parts of the

19:18

Bible with the epistles of Paul is that if this covenant, this new covenant, this covenant of grace were in any way dependent on you or me, we would fail.

19:29

Yeah. We would fail. And so it needs to be totally on the foundation of Jesus. And so that's what we want for you is to trust in His work alone, not a combination of your works and His works.

19:42

Do you trust in His work alone? Oh, I mean, that's the goal. In everything I do, you know,

19:47

I want to magnify the Savior. No, you just talked about doing. I want to catch you there. So in everything

19:52

I do, believe. Okay, okay. What do you believe? Yeah, like every part that encompasses me.

19:59

Yeah, I want to be that new creature. Yeah. So are you right now...

20:08

The Bible says in... You mentioned Ephesians 2. Yeah. Ephesians 1. Right. He's trying to articulate why it is that racism is wrong in the church.

20:19

He's going through that. Yeah. He just wanted to. And the whole first chapter, what he's saying is he's going through all of these different blessings, and he says, you have, present tense, every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places.

20:35

Yeah. And he goes through everything. He talks about being adopted as a son. That's a present tense reality.

20:42

Yeah. You've got this. Yeah. Yeah. Which one of us is faster? I know. I just figured

20:48

I've got to re -download the other app that I was going to use. I was going to do one of the comparisons to the Blue Letter Bible app.

20:54

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I got that one. It's pretty good. So at the end of the day, if we were to stand before God as God is a judge.

21:03

Yeah. And I'll, I'm sorry, I kind of cut you off. But basically. Yeah. Is it like me and Jesus both did the best we could do.

21:11

Obviously, his was better. Or will it be Jesus said, I paid it all that day.

21:17

Right. In John chapter 19, when he said to Telestai, it is finished. It was actually done that day.

21:23

Yeah. So what it says here is, it says, Blessed be the God and Father of our

21:29

Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every, has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ.

21:38

Just as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and blameless before him in love.

21:45

He predestined us to adoption as sons through Christ Jesus to himself, according to the kind intention of his will, to the praise of the glory of his grace, which he freely bestowed on us in the beloved.

21:57

In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us in all wisdom and insight.

22:07

He made known to us the mystery of his will, according to his kind intention, which he purposed in him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of times, that is the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heaven and things on the earth.

22:22

In him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to his purpose, who works all things after the counsel of his will, to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ should be to the praise of his glory.

22:37

In him you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation, having also believed, you were sealed in him with the

22:46

Holy Spirit of promise, who was given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of his glory.

22:57

That's a lot in there. Yeah, yeah. It's amazing. You've got all of this stuff. Like I said, salvation is a package deal.

23:05

You've got all this and more. And Paul is going to go on to say, he's going to talk about how, you know, we are dead in our trespasses in the sense we bring nothing, contribute nothing to our salvation.

23:16

And as a result, since there's no contribution that the Jews make, no contribution that the

23:21

Gentiles make, so at the end of the day, salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone.

23:28

And so as a result, nobody can boast. Yeah. He says that in Romans 3 .27.

23:34

When he's summarizing the gospel, he says, For where then is boasting? It is excluded.

23:39

It is excluded. By what law or principle? By the principle of works? No, but by the principle of grace.

23:45

So when we come to any sort of system that says, oh sure, faith in Christ is good and you should have it, it's even necessary.

23:57

But you only get so much in here. There are things that you get just by having faith, you know, and being baptized.

24:08

But you have to also go to the temple and do the temple ordinances and be sealed in the temple in order to really get the fullness of what

24:16

God has, not just here. We acknowledge that even as Christians, you can screw things up here and not get all that God could give you here in this life.

24:27

In this life. In this life, exactly. In the next life, though, like Paul says, in the heavenly places, all of this stuff has already been given to the

24:36

Ephesian people when he writes to them. It's an already and not yet principle. Already has been given to us.

24:42

And he's not just talking about himself, all of them and the Ephesians. Ephesian professors messed up as well

24:50

I am. I don't know about you. Yeah, right. So what he's saying is, it's all there, all of grace, all of faith is given.

24:59

Even what you mentioned in Ephesians 2, that he prepares even the good works that we do. He's the one who's preparing them.

25:05

You don't even author them. Right. You get to walk in them. But in the Mormon system, what they're saying is you have to go through all these ordinances in order to even have reconciliation with the

25:17

Father. You can't go to the celestial kingdom. And you've heard this. You can't go to the celestial kingdom unless you have gone and done the temple ordinances

25:26

It's sealed in the temple. It's the faith, repentance, baptism, gift of the

25:32

Holy Spirit by laying on of hands and enduring to the end. That's what it is. And so what we're trying to do here is to just, we're trying to show you what the truth is about the gospel.

25:45

That is the whole thing by grace through faith that is available to anyone regardless of their background, regardless of what we've done.

25:54

And sometimes it seems like God is even looking out for the people who have sinned the most just to show off.

26:01

Show how good he is. Yeah. And so if, are you right now in a place where you know that if you were to die right now, that you would be in the presence of the fullness of God.

26:18

Peace with God. Right. Because that atonement is efficacious and so potent that it doesn't forgive some of your pre -baptismal sins.

26:41

It forgives sin in total. Right? So what do you think?

26:49

What do you have in there? We're talking a lot. Yeah, there's a lot of stuff. Oh, I keep losing.

26:55

I'm just going to put them in my pocket. Yeah, there you go. Probably for the best. Yeah. That's a great question.

27:05

So personally, I like to believe it and I say believe because obviously

27:11

I guess at the end of the day there is, as a fallible human, I could not know something. But I would prefer to just declare it because I do legitimately think that because of what he's done, that I would be standing in front of him.

27:29

And that no matter what, I want to see him. There's a really good song.

27:37

I don't know if you've heard it. It's a Christian song. I think this guy's named Colton Dixon. Yeah. If I had no voice, if I had no tongue,

27:45

I would dance for you. That's what I want, you know, and that's what I believe I do. Braxton, I want it for you.

27:55

I want it for you. I'm not sure. In fact, I'm certain you won't get it. I respect that.

28:01

You know, I just have my feelings. No, no. From the organization, I don't know what

28:08

God will do with you. Sure, sure, sure. The way I started that sentence sounded worse than it was. But even if you meant it, like, you know, there's some guys over there that are just nasty.

28:17

Hey, Jesus loves you, dude. It's okay. We've got a couple people today that have thanked us for just not screaming.

28:22

Is that really where the bar is now? That's honestly where it is. Yeah, yeah. I mean,

28:28

I realize it might be kind of an introspective kind of thing that you might not have expected. And I'm more of a,

28:35

I don't seem like it, but I'm more of like an introverted, philosophical kind of person. You would love our buddy

28:42

Andrew. Really? He's super philosophical sort of guy. That's awesome. Hey, I go through an issue, and then

28:49

I'm like, but what if, what if, what if, what if, and I go through all, like, you know, deductions of possibilities.

28:56

So I would definitely keep those in mind. But, yeah, for sure. What you might want to do is just stay in contact with Wade for a little bit.

29:05

Oh, actually, I don't have my card on me. But on the back, this number, which you have.

29:11

This one? Yeah. Whoops. Someone else gave me one of these earlier. That phone number goes straight to my phone.

29:21

That's you. And we're PO Boxes in Sandy, but our church is in South Jordan.

29:27

But you're in Idaho, you said? Yeah, I used to live in Provo, so I know the area, though. So I'm serious. I'm dead serious.

29:34

If you ever had questions or just wanted to chat, you text that number.

29:39

We'll be available. We'll do video chat. We'll do whatever. We would not give up on you.

29:45

We'll be praying for you, because it seems like, I don't know, there's something about you that's different than people we've met here.

29:52

Wouldn't you say? The fact that most of, pretty much all the references that you've given us today are either

29:58

Christians or Bible references. Bonhoeffer.

30:04

Yeah. I love. I wrote my senior research paper on him. Yeah. I've described him so much. Man. Normally, a person isn't saved for them on the basis of what organization that they're a part of.

30:16

Sure. We believe, yeah, it's possible. If we're all speaking the same language here and what you've said is true, then

30:22

I think you're in a dangerous position by remaining there in the church, because what they're going to try to do, if you are born again, what this will do is to stifle your faith.

30:34

Yes. If you're not, then they're going to keep you from being born again.

30:40

I mean, obviously, God has the power to save you when he wants, but they are not going to be helpful to you, other than maybe superficial things, like making you nicer to your neighbors and things like that.

30:52

But what they are teaching, and we made it a point when we made these tracts to show what is the official doctrine according to their sources.

31:02

Sure. We don't want to misrepresent anybody. We don't want to put anybody on a blaster. Do you have the Children of God one?

31:08

I don't think so. Read that one, too. Yeah. And it's what we were hoping.

31:15

First of all is that what you said is true, that your faith is placed in Christ alone, and we're going to be praying for you as well as anyone else, but that God will lead you by his

31:31

Spirit away from this organization of falsehoods about who he is, and who you are, and what the gospel is, and towards somebody that's going to be able to cultivate you.

31:42

I know there's got to be lots of good churches out there in Idaho. Oh, yeah, I know several good churches out there.

31:47

There's got to be somebody out there that can kind of coach you and can be on your level, because I know what it's like sometimes to have that kind of intellectual side of the brain and be in a place where people are just like telling inspirational stories.

32:00

Sure, yeah. I need meat. We just want to, and even whoever that would be, whether it be the

32:08

LDS organization or a Christian, even what we're saying, we want you to test all that we're saying to Scripture.

32:14

You see, there is an objective standard, a truth, the truth, that stands transcendent outside of anyone's feelings or spiritual experiences, right?

32:30

Because today there's this moral relativism that says we all have truth, I have truth,

32:35

I have truth, but if your truth contradicts my truth, then whose is actually truth?

32:40

Because then it no longer remains objective and solid. It's permeable and subjective.

32:46

So there's got to be something out there that is fact and true. And so mankind is seeking that, and I would submit to all people that that's in the

32:58

Word of God, the Bible in the Old and New Testaments of that Bible. And so I think if you were to,

33:07

Braxton, maybe even you already seem knowledgeable in the Scriptures, but if you were just to once again, you're probably already reading it.

33:16

But if you just read the whole New Testament and just started looking at things that Joseph, Brigham, all the

33:22

Presidents, Heber C. Kimball, all of them, if you started weighing what they're saying against what you read in the

33:28

New Testament, I'd be interested to see what you say. And that's where I'll leave it, is I challenge you to read the

33:33

New Testament with fresh eyes. See what we're talking about, this grace. I mean, goodness,

33:40

Romans 3, 4, and 5, he says this was even before Abraham worked. He didn't do a single work. He did nothing.

33:46

A worker is owed wages, but a man who doesn't work, nothing's owed to him.

33:53

And so when nothing's owed to you, it's full grace. Grace is unmerited favor, freely given. So just check out the

33:59

New Testament. You got our number. You got my email there, too. We'd love to catch up sometime if you ever have questions.

34:06

For sure. Well, sweet. Your Nana's been calling you all the time. Yes, she has. Yeah, she has. Thank you so much.