Does the Bible teach the Earth is flat? with John Harris

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name. And the recording is going to share the screen or wait until you're done.

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Yeah, let's wait until I'm done. I just want to make sure it seems like maybe. All right, here we go.

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So I'm Terry cameras on I'm here on behalf of creation fellowship Santee. We're a group of friends bound by our common agreement that the creation account as told in Genesis is a true depiction of how

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God created the world and all life in just six days, just a matter of about 6000 years ago.

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We've been meeting on this online platform since May of 2020. And we've been blessed by a wide range of speakers, doctors, apologists, scientists, pastors, all sorts of people who love the

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Lord and have a message to share. You can find links to most of our past presentations by typing in tiny url .com

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forward slash cfs archives that see like creation f like fellowship s like Santee archives.

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And you can also email us at creation fellowship Santee at gmail .com

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so that you can get on our email list and we'll we won't spam you but we will send you invitations to all of our upcoming speakers so you won't miss any.

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Tonight we're blessed to welcome back our friend john Harris. He's the director of Living Waters Europe.

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And he is coming to us from across the pond he he gets up very late or early to do this when he visits us and you can find his past two presentations on our site.

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But tonight he's with us for pretty much the most controversial issue that we cover, which is whether what which is the shape of the earth.

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So john, just so that you know, he has a he trains a large team of believers to go out and share the gospel with people in Europe.

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He's also the founder and CEO of creation science UK. He also hosts a monthly

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Apollo apologist forum, I guess maybe you would call it he he studies the

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Bible very thoroughly and thoughtfully and he and he equips other believers with with God's truth.

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So we're happy to have him here with us. And if you have any questions or comments during the presentation, whether you're here with us on zoom or watching along on Facebook, you can go ahead and post them and we'll see if we have time to answer them all tonight.

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All right, john, go ahead. Hello, good evening, and good morning, depending on where you're from.

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It's great to be with you guys. I'm going to go ahead and share my screen. Make sure

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I find my right screen. And here it is. And I'm going to run my PowerPoint. And hopefully you guys are seeing

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Are you seeing does the Bible teach the earth is flat big screen with a square circle?

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Yes, we do. Yep. Alrighty. So this is fantastic. Thank you very much for having me back again.

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It's a pleasure to be with you guys. Today's topic is about whether the Bible teaches the earth is flat.

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I don't intend to get into scientific evidence today. Because today

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I'm focusing on what the Bible says. We've done that I've got videos that shows that kind of information.

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If you're interested, go on our website and our YouTube channel, you'll find them there. So why am I focusing on the

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Bible? Because most people who believe the earth is flat say that they started believing the earth is flat, because the

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Bible teaches it. The truth is that there are plenty of verses in the Bible that refers to the ends of the earth, or the four corners of the earth, or the foundation of the earth, and so on.

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So the flat earther would say, well, how could a globe earth have ends or corners or foundation?

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So they would say, look, Christians, the plain reading of the Bible clearly points to the earth being flat, in the same way as the plain reading of the

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Bible tells us that the earth is relatively young, and that evolution is false, it also says it's flat.

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Why don't you accept that? That's why I put a lot of effort and research into this study.

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In fact, as part of my research, I joined the Flat Earth Society Facebook page in America, and the

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Flat Earth Society Facebook page in the UK, and even the Kent Flat Earth Society Facebook page in England.

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All these have thousands of subscribers. I even joined a Facebook page that's local to where I live, so that I could find someone who's willing to be interviewed for flat earth research and video that I was making.

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I posted an advert in each one of these asking to interview a flat earther on camera for our documentary.

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Eventually someone from our local town called me, and I interviewed him. He was very nice guy.

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He considered himself a flat earth evangelist, if there's such a thing. He was very knowledgeable and very actively promoting and converting people to believe in flat earth.

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One of the frustrating things for him was that people often made derogatory comments about flat earth believers without investigating the evidence, as he called it.

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In case you're interested, I've released this interview on YouTube already if you want to watch it. In this one and a half hours interview, he probably brought up just about every verse in the

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Bible that he believed proves the Bible, the earth is flat. So he would say things like, look,

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I don't know why you don't believe in flat earth if you're a Christian. The Bible talks about flat earth everywhere.

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These are the verses I'll be bringing up today and a few more. He was so convinced that flat earth is truth, he left saying he can't imagine life existing for him with a globe earth.

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He just couldn't imagine it. Once you go flat, you can't go back. That's kind of their phrases.

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I can't turn back now, literally, just like that. He was so passionate about this. For those who don't know, there is even a flat earth society set up specially to promote this belief, and they put a lot of effort into giving answers to every possible objection people may have against flat earth.

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I think it's written very well. Having said that, not all flat earthers agree with this flat earth society.

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Some say they do more harm than good. That's their words, not mine. Some call them a controlled opposition, whatever that means.

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There are now celebrities joining in, like Bobby Ray Simmons Jr., known as B .O

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.B., and Tila Tequila, and many other celebrities. This list only had 23 celebrities in 2020.

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It's now 36. It's gone up by more than 50 % within three years. I personally find at least one flat earth believer in nearly every talk

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I do, if there are more than 30 or 40 people. It's trending. I think our churches are full of flat earth believers, and we don't know about it.

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According to a survey done by YouGov in April 2018, 2 % of Americans absolutely believe that the earth is flat.

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That's over 6 .5 million people who believe the earth is flat. Not only that, but at least 5 % say that they used to believe that the world is spherical but now have doubts.

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That's about 16 .5 million people beginning to think the earth could be flat, and this survey says that most of the

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Americans who believe the earth is flat are millennials. And on top of that, most say they are very religious because it's written in their scripture.

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There you have it. For some reason, it looks like there is some link between being very religious and accepting the flat earth conspiracy.

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Please bear in mind, these figures are probably at least 50 % higher since 2018.

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Now, what about Britain? Or in Britain, what's the view in the UK? Well, in a survey made a year later by the same organization,

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YouGov in 2019, they found that 1 % of Britons say that the earth is definitely flat, 2 % think it's probably flat, and 4 % just don't know.

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That means more than half a million of the British population believe that the earth is definitely flat, and 1 .3

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million believe the could be flat, and over 2 .5 million people just don't know.

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This is huge. When we went out doing a recording for our flat earth video, I randomly stopped people and said, what do you think?

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They said they don't know. Since when do we say we don't know? Now, in case you're interested, none of the

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British young generations actually say the earth is definitely flat, but they are more likely to say that they didn't know if it is flat than the older generations.

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But why would anyone want to hide this shape of the earth? If you ask, they say, well, the whole flat earth secrecy is to hide the fact that God exists, or it's because they want to control people.

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I'm not sure how deceiving people into thinking the earth is a globe controls people, but it's their words, not mine, and they say it's because people want to make money.

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Again, I'm not sure how this would help people make money, because to me it sounds like it would cost a lot more money to hide something like this than making money keeping it hidden.

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Also, people are trying to hide God. It's probably easier and less work for them to go out and find every possible manuscript that ever existed and destroy it.

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I think that might be easier to do than to keep hiding the shape of the earth from everyone. Anyway, whatever the reason, there are a lot of flat earth believers out there today, and most believe it for religious reasons.

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Okay, so what do flat earthers believe? They believe the earth is circular with the

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North Pole in the middle and the South Pole goes around the edges with a high ice wall surrounding it, and it has a dome -like cover on top.

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You can't get to the edges because there's a high ice wall which is heavily guarded to stop people going there and exposing the truth about the earth's shape.

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They say the sun and moon are about 2 ,000 miles high, but it depends on who you talk to. It could be 3 ,000, it could be 4 ,000.

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Both the sun and the moon are only 32 miles in diameter.

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The stars are higher than the sun and the moon, and they are embedded in this dome. The stars move in one direction with the dome at roughly the same speed as the sun and the moon.

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Not only the earth is a flat disk, but also the sun and the moon, but of course you hear different stories depending on who you talk to.

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I sometimes feel that things are being made up as they go along. They say the moon landing is fake. All the photographs we've ever taken of the earth is photoshopped.

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Every pilot government, whether of a country or a tiny village, whether they are enemies or friends, they're all united in this one thing to hide the real shape of the earth.

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They say that this flat earth is kept a secret by every organization that has anything to do with space or air travel.

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It's kept a secret by the space agencies, NASA, military, all shipping companies, all airlines, including transnational companies that move goods around the world, odometer manufacturers, the navigation industry, every astronomer, whether amateur or professional physicist, and satellite

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TV providers, and so on. Not just for now, but for as long as these industries ever existed.

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They would happily admit that not all employees of these companies are necessarily in on this global conspiracy, but they would say that some of these employees have been simply fooled or made to believe that they're working on projects to do with globe earth when there is no such thing.

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That means their jobs are simply fake jobs, or they simply don't know that their projects are being applied to flat earth without their knowledge.

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So they're either in on this conspiracy, or they are fooled into thinking that they are working with globe earth.

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So there you have it. Now, before I tell you what the Bible says on the topic, there are some things

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I would like to clarify or avoid. These are things I'm not going to focus on because of lack of time, and because I don't think they're necessary or irrelevant.

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I have to admit to you, I actually don't know if I'm going to get through my talk entirely, so I'll stop early so that I can take some questions if necessary.

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Now, for example, I'm going to avoid talking about the firmament. I notice that a lot of flat earthers use the firmament that the

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Bible talks about as proof that the Bible teaches the earth is flat. That's a misunderstanding.

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You can believe in globe earth and still have a dome -like shape above the earth. These are not mutually exclusive, but please ask me later during Q &A so I can give you more details if you're interested.

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I also notice that some flat earthers confuse geocentrism with heliocentrism with flat earth.

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They say that geocentrism proves that the Bible teaches the earth is flat.

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Again, this is another misunderstanding. These are not connected. You can believe in either one and still believe the earth is a globe.

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Again, ask me later on for more information during Q &A. Here's an interesting one, the fake moon landing conspiracy.

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This really is irrelevant to whether the Bible teaches the earth is flat, because both sides, whether you believe in flat earth or an earth that looks like a globe, they can both have this problem.

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They both are denying—there are people in both sides are denying the moon landing.

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But if you want to ask me later on, I'll be happy to give you some information at the end during Q &A.

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Here's another conspiracy. NASA means to deceive in Hebrew. Therefore, the earth is flat.

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I find this particularly interesting, but has nothing to do with whether the Bible teaches the earth is flat.

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But if you want to know more about this and where they get the idea from, again, ask me during Q &A.

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There is also a conspiracy about how numbers prove that NASA and the astronauts like Neil Armstrong are evil.

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Again, nothing to do with what the Bible says. Ask me later, and I will tell you where they're coming from and so on.

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I think I've done my introduction here. Okay, so let's start. The first question we want all answering is this.

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Are there any Bible verses that support the idea that the earth is flat? Well, according to flat earthers, there are a few of them.

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And you'll be pleased to know that in the next four hours allocated to me, I will be going through each one of these in great detail.

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All right, that was like a joke. Okay, I immediately heard the background there.

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But let's go through a few of those good ones first and show you how they're used. As I go through these verses, think for yourself.

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I want you to think for yourselves how you would respond to them. Okay, you'll see in a minute how difficult they sound.

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Some Christians find it hard to argue against them because they really sound very convicting, actually, or convincing.

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For example, in Job 28 24, for he looks to the ends of the earth and sees everything under the heavens.

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How can the earth be a globe and have ends? The ends of the earth can only make sense if the earth is flat.

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We have plenty of verses like that. Like, for example, this one, ask me and I will make the nations your heritage and the ends of the earth your possession.

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God shall bless us. Let all the ends of the earth fear him. Turn to me, be saved, all the ends of the earth, for I am

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God and there is no other. The Lord will bring a nation against you from far away from the end of the earth.

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These are plenty, or there are plenty of verses in the Bible in both

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Old and New Testament. For example, New Testament, Mark 13 27, where it says, and then he will send out the angels and gather his elect from the four winds from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven.

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How can the ends of the earth be true if the earth is a globe? Think about it,

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Christians. The earth can only have ends if it's a round or square shape.

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You see the problem? What would you say to someone who uses these verses to tell you the earth is flat? Now, do you remember in Matthew 4 8, also in 4 5, where the devil took

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Jesus on a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world? Now think about it. How could the devil show

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Jesus all the kingdoms of the world if the earth is a globe? That's impossible. The fact that Jesus could see all the kingdoms from that mountain must mean the earth has to be flat.

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Are you with me? Okay, how about this one? Job 38 14, talking about the earth, it says, and it's chained like a clay under the seal, and its features stand out like a garment.

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This seal is like a special ring that acts like a stamp. When you press it, it makes a round flat surface with edges.

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The God created the earth like pressing a seal and creates a border around it.

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The border represents the edges of the earth. The high edges are the high ice walls around the edges of the earth.

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Now, get that. It certainly doesn't work with the spherical earth, does it? If none of these verses challenge you yet, how about this one?

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1 Samuel 2 8, it says, he raises up the poor from the dust. He lifts the needy from the ash heap to make him sit with princes and inherit the seat of honor.

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For the pillars of the earth are the Lord's, and on them he has set the world. He says it again in Psalms 35 3, where the earth tutters and all its inhabitants, it is

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I who keeps steady its pillars. How can there be pillars on a spherical earth?

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Obviously, the earth would have to be flat with pillars. Not only pillars, but the earth has also foundations that prove the earth is flat.

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And Micah 6 2, it says, here you mount the indictment of the Lord and you enduring foundations of the earth.

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For the Lord has indictment against his people, and he will contend with Israel.

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And again, Isaiah 51 16, and I have put my words in your mouth and covered you in the shadow of my hand, establishing the heavens and laying the foundations of the earth and saying to Zion, you are my people.

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You have more verses like that. Job 34 46, where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth or the foundation of the earth?

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Tell me if you have understanding, who determined its measurements? Surely you know, or who stretched the line upon it, and what were its bases sunk, or who laid its corners cornerstone?

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This is God challenging Job, putting him in his place after he complained. God said, two things,

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I laid the foundation of the earth and who laid its corners. Flat earthers would say, there is foundation and there is a cornerstone.

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A globe earth doesn't have these things. Come on now. How can a globe earth have a foundation?

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How can you have corners in a globe earth? See, a flat earther would say the flat earth model fits better.

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I'll show you more verses to do with the corners later on, but the Christian who believes the earth is a globe would bring up Isaiah 40 22, where it says, it is he who sits upon this, above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, who stretches out the heavens like a curtain and spread out like a stand to dwell in.

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So those who believe in the globe earth would say, see, the Bible does say the earth is a circle, so it has to be a sphere, and obviously flat surfaces cannot, are not circles.

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But the flat earther would say, not so quick, my dear globe earther.

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The word circle here is round, not sphere. In Hebrew, it's the word hog.

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If God wanted to use the word sphere, he could have used the word door, as he did in Isaiah 22 18, and which it says, and will you round and round, and throw you like a ball, which is door, in a wide land.

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There you shall die, and there shall be your glorious chariots. You shame of your master's house.

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So in Hebrew, we have a word for a globe shape, but it wasn't used in Isaiah 40 22 to describe the earth.

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Instead, he used the word that means circle. So clearly God wanted us, wanted to use the word round to tell us the earth is flat.

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Got it? Are you seeing how, why some Christians are getting confused about this? And finally, in Daniel 4 11 and 20, it says, the tree grew and became strong, and its top reached to heaven, and it was visible to the end, to the end of the whole earth.

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The tree you saw, which grew and became strong, so that its top reached the heaven, and it was visible to the end of the whole earth.

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Now come on, how can you see the tree from the end of the whole earth, if the earth is a sphere?

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Clearly that's impossible. Also in Revelation 1 7, it says, look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him.

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Again, how would every eye see Jesus coming, if the earth is a sphere? Based on what we've seen so far, the flat earther would say, well, frankly, this is checkmate.

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The earth is obviously as fat as a pancake. Okay, the flat pancake idea was my idea.

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They don't say that. I was hungry when I did this slide, so pancake came up. Now just so you know, flat earthers who say they're

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Christians are happy to ignore all the scientific evidence, because as far as they're concerned, if the

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Bible says the earth is flat, then the earth is flat, which I do understand. They say, look, my authority is

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God's word, not man's fallible and false science that can change tomorrow.

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They say, you trust man, and I trust God's word. Look, stop being a heretical

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Christian, reject the lies of the devil, and accept what the Bible teaches. The earth is flat.

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Is that sounding familiar? Okay, these are just a few of the verses they bring.

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I'll be covering more than these, if time allows. I think I prepared the scene for you nicely,

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I believe. I think I made a fair case for the flat earther. I don't think the flat earther is going to complain about my presentation so far.

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I hope it all made sense, so let's go ahead and see what these verses are really saying. Let's start with Psalm 67, verse 7.

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God shall bless us, let all the ends of the earth fear him. Is this teaching the earth is flat?

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Well, the first problem we have here is that if we are supposed to take this verse literally, as flat earthers tell us we should, then look at what this verse is saying.

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The verse is commanding the very ground that exists at the ends of the earth to fear

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God. How could geography fear God? How can the physical earth fear anything?

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It doesn't make sense. The flat earther would say, but no, no, the people who live there should fear

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God. Ah, but that's not what it says. If we're supposed to take this verse literally to prove the earth has ends, then the whole sentence should be taken literally.

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If it means people, it should be saying, let all the people in the ends of the earth fear him. Anyway, let's assume this is talking about people.

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Then we have another problem. It means that the people are actually living there right now. But according to the flat earth model, no one lives there.

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In fact, it's an uninhabited ice world that you can't get to. But even if that's not the case, we have another problem.

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If we're supposed to take this literally, then it's also saying that only those people who live around the ends of the earth should fear him.

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No one else. Because it's saying that God shall bless us, but let the ends of the earth fear him.

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That's what happens when you take verses literally. You mess up the true meaning of the verse.

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So what is this really saying? What is this verse all about? Well, this is poetry.

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Proper hermeneutics will lead us to understand that this is saying that everyone in the entire world, including us, should fear him.

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In fact, the proper interpretation can only be that everyone, everywhere, ought to fear the

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Lord. This verse is not trying to describe the shape of the earth. It's trying to tell us how far and how wide and how deep this truth should apply.

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What about next verse, Isaiah 45, 22? Turn to me, be saved, and all the ends of the earth, for I am

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God, and there is no other. Again, if this phrase is supposed to be taken literally, then

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Isaiah is talking to the earth itself. It's telling the earth itself, especially just the ends of the earth, to turn to God and be saved.

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Is that what it's saying? Well, of course not. At this point, the flat earther will not admit to that, that this is not meant literally.

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If that's the case, then how come they are taking it literally and assume it's talking about the shape of the earth?

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Okay, but of course they could say that this is talking about the people who are literally living around the edges of the earth.

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If that's the case, then they are admitting that there are people who always live there. That means there are people who live there now.

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Otherwise, this offer wouldn't make sense. How did they get there past the alleged giant wall, which is supposed to be 150 foot tall, of ice that's being guarded?

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This is what happens when you have a messed -up hermeneutics for interpreting the Bible and take a verse that's meant figuratively interpreted literally.

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What this verse is trying to teach us is that people who live far away, who live outside Israel, are told to turn to God to be saved no matter where they live.

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It's not literally telling us about the shape of the earth. It's talking about the offer of salvation. But now it gets more interesting.

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In Deuteronomy 24, 49, it says, the Lord will bring a nation against you from far away from the end of the earth, swooping down like the eagle, a nation whose language you do not understand.

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Now, who is this nation, and where are they coming from? Well, first of all, according to the flat earther, this would be people coming from the ends of the earth.

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That, of course, proves again that there are people living there, which they don't admit to. But let's ignore that for a moment.

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In this verse, God is telling the nation of Israel that what will happen to them if they disobey

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Him. He's saying that He will bring a nation whose language they don't understand. And those or these foreigners will attack

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Israel. It just happens we know who these people are. It's when Babylon and Assyria attacked

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Israel and Jerusalem. So are the flat earthers willing to admit that the Babylonians and Assyrians literally came from the ends of the earth and took the

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Israelites back to the ends of the earth as exiles? Is that what happened? How many boats did they use to take millions of Jews and millions of Babylonians and millions of Assyrians back to the ends of the earth by sea?

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How come there is no mention of the thousands or millions of boats that would be needed for this?

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How did the Jews get back from exile? Did they steal millions of boats? That's what happens when you have bad hermeneutics.

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You are forced to butcher history and God's Word to fit with your belief. Basically, what really happened is that God was warning the

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Israelites about the enemies that will invade them because of their disobedience from outside Israel, somewhere far away, and they'll be taken into exile and be scattered all over the place.

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How do I know this? Because of Deuteronomy 24 -64. And the Lord will scatter you among all peoples from one end of the earth to the other.

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Well, if we're going to take this literally again, wouldn't that mean that the Jews were taken and were scattered literally around the surrounding edges of the earth where the invaders came from and lived there with them?

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Does that mean there was an entire generation of Israelites who knew about this literal dangerous edge and never bothered to tell anyone or write about it?

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What about Nehemiah when he spoke about this exile during the time and then escaped with the

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Jews? In Nehemiah 1, verses 1 and 2, it says, Now it happened in the month of Shislef.

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That's the ninth month of the Jewish calendar, which is our November and December, by the way. In the 20th year,

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I was in Susa, the citadel, that Hanani, one of my brothers, came with certain men from Judah, and I asked them concerning the

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Jews who escaped, who had survived the exile, and concerning Jerusalem.

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How come there is no mention of the sea or boats or edges when they escaped from exile?

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It sounds like a pretty dramatic thing to mention. But more interestingly, Nehemiah is talking about being at Susa, the citadel, which is in Iran.

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That's just over a thousand miles from Jerusalem. Last time I checked, that's nowhere near the edge or the ends of the earth.

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It goes on to say, Remember the word that you commanded your servant Moses, saying,

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If you are unfaithful, I will scatter you among the peoples. But if you return to me and keep my commandments and do them, though your outcasts are in the uttermost parts of heaven, for there

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I will gather them and bring them to the place that I have chosen, to make my name dwell there.

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Now I want you to look at this verse in front of you. Look at it carefully. Is this now talking about the

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Israelites being outcasts in the uttermost parts of heaven? Is this literally talking about the

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Israelites being beyond the edge of the dome, beyond it? Because now we're talking about heaven, and that's literal.

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Of course not. But that's exactly what I would have to conclude if we're taking everything literally, right?

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Clearly, these passages don't mean that the earth has edges, or that the Israelites were being attacked by people who live there, or that the

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Israelites were scattered outside this imaginary dome. It's not even trying to imply these things.

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It just means that God was warning them. If they disobey Him, God will send them a nation from far away, outside Israel's borders, whose language they don't recognize or understand, who will invade them and take them as exiles to a far land.

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That's it. These verses are not trying to describe the shape of the earth at all. But what about the words of Jesus when

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He said, and then He, the Son of Man, will send out the angels and gather His elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven?

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What is that saying? Surely this proves the earth is flat. How else can you gather the elect from the ends of the earth on globe earth?

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Well, okay, but if this is about the shape of the earth, then we have a problem.

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First of all, it means that people do definitely live around the ends of the earth right now, even though flat earthers insist that no one lives there or can go there.

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But worse still, if people live there, but you can't go there, then these people could never hear the gospel, and therefore no one would ever repent, nor would they trust in Jesus.

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Well, if that's the case, then how is Jesus going to gather His elect from there? There's going to be no elect.

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More interestingly, if everything is literal, then who are those living at the ends of heaven?

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Do you hear that? It says, ends of heaven, to the ends of heaven. Are we now talking about people living literally next to the dome or on the other side of the dome?

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That doesn't make sense. So what's happening here? Well, if we do a proper hermeneutics on this verse, then we find that all this is saying is that there are people beyond Israel who are saved.

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People from everywhere will all be gathered from outside Israel, just as people will be from inside Israel.

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It's certainly not a lesson about the shape of the earth. It's a lesson about people's salvation. Otherwise, it wouldn't make sense.

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Okay, now we come to a passage that flat earthers love to bring up. This is probably the most interesting one, in my eyes.

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In fact, I like this one. Matthew 4, verses 8 to 10. Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory.

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And he said to him, all these I will give you if you will fall down and worship me. Then Jesus said to him, be gone,

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Satan. So, according to flat earthers, this passage is saying that Satan took him to a high mountain, and because of that,

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Jesus was able to see all the kingdoms of the world, or every nation of the world. And the fact that he can see the whole kingdom means that the earth is flat.

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Otherwise, how else could Jesus see all the kingdoms of all the earth on a globe earth? Think about it.

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You see, you Christians, this is 100 % proof the Bible says the earth is flat.

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Why can't you see it? All right, I'm going to do something very special with this one.

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I'm going to assume the earth is flat. You can't get fairer than that. Let's agree that this passage teaches the earth is flat.

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Okay, now what's interesting about this passage is that there are some things we do know.

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First of all, we do know that the entire event took 40 days, because that's how long

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Jesus was in the wilderness. If you want, we can add more days, but I don't think that's going to help much.

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Secondly, the closest and the highest mountain to Jerusalem is Mount Scopus. It's about 2 ,710 feet high.

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That's not very high, but Jesus would still have to get there and back within 40 days, or within a few days at least.

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When Jesus gets there, he will find out that it's not high enough to see the whole world from there.

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Why? Because there are plenty more higher mountains on earth that would get in his line of sight.

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That means he still wouldn't be able to see all the kingdoms of the world, even if the world is flat. In fact, here is an aerial view of the area for Mount Scopus today.

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Does it look like you can see the entire world from here? I don't think so. In fact, this view is even higher than the mountain itself, because this is using some kind of mast or drone to elevate the view even higher from that mountain.

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So, assuming the earth is flat, to solve this problem for the line of sight, Jesus would need to go to the highest mountain on earth,

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Mount Everest. But that would be about 3 ,000 miles away as the crow flies. It takes over 17 hours with the plane to get there from Jerusalem, and another 17 hours to get back.

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I don't think the option of booking a flight with booking .com was available in those days. Now, having said that, even if he did manage to go to Mount Everest in some miraculous speedy way within 40 days and then back, there are still other high mountains in the way.

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That would block his view. He'd block his view. He won't be able to see the other nations from there.

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But even if I ignore this, then Jesus still couldn't have seen all the nations of the world, because it's impossible to see that far with your naked eye.

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The atmosphere doesn't allow you to see that kind of distance even on the clearest day. Having said that, to be extra generous, not only am

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I going to assume the earth is flat, I'm going to ignore the mountains. I'm going to ignore the line of sight problem.

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I'm going to ignore the visibility issue with the atmosphere, ignore the 40 days limit we have, and still find myself having problems.

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That's because from that kind of distance, some nations or their glorious cities would be too small to see in any meaningful, impressive way, unless Jesus somehow owned a very powerful telescope that he happened to take with him for a special occasion like this, you know, in case he's taken up to the mountain to see the kingdoms of the world.

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But even if he had the telescope, it wouldn't work, because Jesus needs to see these nations from the top.

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He would need a drone flying over them. I'm reasonably confident that wasn't available during those days.

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So even if the earth is flat, reading this literally just wouldn't work or make sense.

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It's totally messed up. That's because this verse is not meant to be read literally, and it's not trying to tell us anything about the shape of the earth.

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What really must have happened is this. Satan was showing

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Jesus all the nations of the world somehow supernaturally. There is no other explanation. But why did

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Satan have to take Jesus on the high mountain to see the kingdom of all the nations, even though it wasn't that high in the first place?

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Well, we have to assume it's for theological reasons. We know that Israel had many kings and rulers.

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Some honored God and others didn't, but somehow they kept the altars to sacrifice to false gods in these high places.

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Some of those used to be on mountaintops around Israel. So Satan probably took

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Jesus to one of these places and tried to tempt Jesus to ultimately worship him. He probably thought he could deceive

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Jesus in the same way and on the same mountain where he deceived the

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Israelites over many generations. But of course, Satan failed. It all makes sense when you practice proper hermeneutics, which is the science of interpreting the

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Bible. If you don't exercise proper hermeneutics, you can butcher Bible passages and come out with a completely different, meaningless answer to the text.

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I'm dreading the fact that there are many flat earthers who are pastors out there. With that kind of hermeneutics, they will seriously change the meaning of God's Word and mislead people deliberately or by accident.

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For example, this is what a pastor called Pastor Dean Odell said. He even said the original

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Greek language, or he used the original Greek language. He says that in Job 38, 14, where it says, it is changed as clay under the seal and all things stand forth as a garment.

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He says, see, God created the world like pressing a ring seal and creates a border around it.

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The border is the edges of the earth. The Bible says the earth is flat, just like if it's pressed by a special signet ring.

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So it has to be flat. This is what they say. This is the signet ring on the book that he wrote.

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That's his book. Unfortunately, there are many problems with this. The first problem is that according to the Strong's number 2368, which is the

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Greek word that's being used here for the ring, it says it's usually a cylinder seal design, though if on the hand, then a signet ring.

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So it's saying it's like a cylinder, except when talking about wearing it on your hand. But this reference doesn't tell you which one should be used for which verse.

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It's just saying that if it is in the hand, it will be a ring. Otherwise, it's a cylinder. This is what a cylinder looks like.

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You guys have seen it. It's not very big. They use it for identification by rolling over the clay or wax.

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This leaves an imprint that acts like a signature telling you where it came from. All right, as far as I can see, there's only one translation that translates this word seal to a signet ring, which is the

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ISV, which is International Standard Version. Every other translation calls it just a seal, not a signet ring.

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You'll see in a minute why that's significant. But Job 38 .14 also says it is change.

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What does this mean? When is the earth changed? It becomes more obvious when you read two verses before,

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Job 38 .12 -13, to get the context. It says, Have you commanded the morning since your days begun and caused the dawn to know its place, that it—it's talking about the dawn and the morning—might take hold of the skirts of the earth and the wicked will be shaken out of it?

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So, as you can see, this change that it's talking about is not something that happened during creation.

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It's not talking about the shape of the earth that took place in the beginning.

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This is describing what happens to the earth at sunrise, just as the real seal brings out the pattern and the contour when pressed against a clay or wax, the sun also brings out the patterns and contours and the depth when it rises.

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This happens especially in the morning with all the shadows that show up on earth. That's why it says it is changed as clay under the seal.

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It's talking about something that happens every single day, which is in contrast with night or the nighttime.

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You don't get this depth or pattern or shapes during the night when it's dark, obviously. This has nothing to do with the shape of the earth and the edges that a signet ring leaves when pressed against the clay or wax.

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It's not talking about the edge of the earth and the ice wall. It's not doing any of those things.

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What also happens when the sun comes out is that the wicked is shaken out. It's because the light exposes the wicked.

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So what is that talking about? Well, this explains it better. Just a few chapters earlier, it says, the murderer rises before it is light that he may kill the poor and needy, and in the night he is like a thief.

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The eye of the adulterer also waits for the twilight, saying,

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No eye will see me, and he veils his face. In the dark they dig through houses.

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By day they shut themselves up. They do not know the light. Okay, so in the morning the earth starts showing all its patterns and contours as the sun rises, and the wicked are shaken and hide because they are being exposed.

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They wait until the night before they do their wicked works again. This happens every single day.

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Now tell me, how could this have anything to do with the shape of the earth? But even if this verse was talking about the shape of the earth, then since the stamp is likely to be in the shape of a cylinder, then when it presses on the clay or the wax, it comes out looking like a rectangle with edges sticking out.

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But the only edges sticking out is above and below this rectangle, but no edges at the ends of it, which when translated to mean flat earth, like Dean Odell is saying, it means that the ice wall which these edges represent wouldn't exist everywhere, and you fall off the edge because parts of it will be missing.

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None of it would make sense. That's the problem with believing the earth is flat. It changes the focus and meaning of the verses.

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In this case, instead of focusing on what happens to the light that reflects off the surface of the land every time, and every time the sun comes out, and how the wicked is exposed, it assumes the verse is talking about the shape of the earth instead, missing the whole point completely.

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All right, let's move on. This is not the only time, by the way, Pastor Dean Odell used the Greek to say that the

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Bible teaches the earth is flat. For example, he's done it with Revelation 20, verses 7 to 9. It talks about the four corners of the earth, which

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I'm going to talk about in a minute, but this verse also talks about the breadth of the earth. Let's read it.

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It says, "'Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea, they went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city.

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And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.'" According to Pastor Dean Odell, even though he agrees that the word breadth means width or breadth, as it's translated in the

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Bible, he says the original root of that word, which is platous, means spread out flat.

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And of course, what does spread out flat mean? That means God is trying to tell us in this verse that the earth is flat.

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Apparently this knowledge came to him through the Holy Spirit as a special revelation directly from God.

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Okay, so let's look at the original Greek lexicon to see if that's true. Although it does say the word means breadth or suggesting great extent, just as it's translated in the

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Bible, but the word doesn't mean flat out, or the root word doesn't mean flat out or spread out like Pastor Odell saying.

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It just says broad or wide. That's it. Nowhere does it say flat out in the

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Even if the Bible wanted to tell us that the earth is flat, this is a real strange way of saying it.

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This verse is just talking about the ground that the army was marching on. The Bible is saying there is going to be such a big army that it will need a wide and broad plain space to walk on.

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The army is not covering the entire planet. But even if it did, it still doesn't mean the earth is flat.

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It just means that there is going to be a flat bit of land that they are going to walk on.

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That's it. In fact, the area will probably have many mountains around them. But the point is they are going to march on the flat bit.

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That's it. Probably around the valley. This is why I worry if a pastor gets caught up in this flat earth conspiracy.

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It affects their hermeneutics. It affects their teaching. You see, the reason why flat earthers are getting confused with the word earth is because earth doesn't always mean earth, as in the entire planet.

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Sometimes the word earth is talking about something subtly different. Here is the word for earth in the original

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Greek language. It's arets. The Hebrew lexicon Strong's number is H776.

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Check out all the meanings this word can have in the Bible. It can be the whole planet earth, country.

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It could mean ground, world. It could mean the way, common field. It could mean nations.

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It could mean wilderness, people of the land, land of the living, distant country, and so on.

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It could even mean shaol or the underworld. So it would be wrong to take verses that have the word arets in them and start assuming it's telling us about the shape of the world or the shape of the planet.

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Sometimes it could just mean people, nothing to do with the earth. But when it does mean the planet, then it's usually obvious.

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For example, in Genesis 1 .1, it says in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. Arets is used.

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This is talking about creating the earth. So it should include the whole planet. But because it has the phrase the heavens and the earth, then it should be understood as a universal term of creation to include the whole universe.

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But even after this verse, the word earth is used, but it doesn't mean the whole planet.

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For example, Genesis 1 .10, it says that still in the same chapter, God called the dry land earth, arets.

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So even in the same chapter, the word earth is used in a different way. It's used as dry land, nothing to do with the planet.

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It's just part of the land that has no water. That's what earth means in this case. It can also mean people.

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Genesis 11 .1, now the whole earth, arets, had one language and the same word.

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Now, does this mean that the planet talks? No, of course not. It's using the phrase the whole earth to mean people.

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It's saying that everyone on the planet spoke the same language, nothing to do with the earth itself.

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It's using the word earth but talking about the people. Sometimes the word earth is used to describe a land, for example,

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Genesis 13 .6, so that the land, arets, could not support both of them dwelling together, for their possessions were so great that they could not dwell together.

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As you can see, the word earth here is translated as land. If we wanted to do what flat earthers do and translate this verse literally, we could say that the earth was not big enough for both of these people groups.

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That would be Abraham and Lot. It would then be saying the earth is basically too small, and one of them has to go to another planet.

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Would that make sense? Well, of course not. You would never translate it that way, even if the word earth is used instead of the word land.

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I hope that made sense. All right. Okay, let's see if the earth has corners.

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Well, according to Job—I'm trying to keep an eye on the time. I think

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I'm okay. Well, according to Job 37 .3, under the whole heaven, he lets it go, and his lightning to the corner of the earth.

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And Revelation 7 .1, it says, after this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth.

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As you can see, this made some flat earthers create four corners around flat earths with angels in each corner.

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That's what happens when you take everything literally. But I have to say, this is very creative.

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You made a square circle. I mean, that's not bad. Well, but the flat earthers don't believe in square circles.

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In that case, they have the same problem with referring to corners on a round disk, as we do on globe earth.

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So they want to tell us that unless you believe in flat earth, you can't make sense of four corners.

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Well, it turns out they have the same problem. But the question is, is that what the Bible means?

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First of all, check out how earth here doesn't mean the planet, because it's saying earth or the sea, earth or the sea.

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Obviously, the word earth here means dry land, not the planet itself. Otherwise, it would just say earth.

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But if you keep translating these verses literally, it starts becoming a problem. Have a look at Isaiah 11 .12.

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He will raise a signal for the nations and will assemble the banished of Israel and gather the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

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Where is God going to gather his people from? It's from the four corners of the earth.

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Where is that on a round disk? Not only is this a confusing verse, but apparently there are people living there with four angels standing up in the corners.

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But it gets worse. Jeremiah 49 .36 talks about the four corners of heaven. I will bring against Elam the four winds from the corners of heaven.

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I will scatter them to the four winds, and there will not be a nation where Elam's exiles do not go.

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Now, it sounds like the dome looks like a cube now, because it's talking about the four corners of heaven, and heaven for the flat earther is where the dome is.

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This is what happens if you take everything literally. You see, a proper understanding of hermeneutics is important to know what's going on, because when the

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Bible talks about the four corners of the earth and the blowing or holding back the winds, it's talking about judgment on the nation.

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It's talking about dreadful and general destruction. It's not trying to describe the planet for you, nor is it trying to warn them of bad weather.

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This should be obvious. Not only that, but the four corners of the earth also means quadrants.

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It's talking about the four directions—north, south, east, and west. Jesus talks about this in Matthew 24 -31, and He will send out

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His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to another.

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That means God will send the angels to collect the elect from everywhere. But if we do what flat earthers do and take this verse literally, then look what it says.

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It says heaven has two ends, because it says from one end of heaven to the other end.

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So that's what happens when you take things literally.

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Is that what heaven looks like, with two ends? Jesus is obviously not giving us a cosmological lesson here.

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He's just saying He'll get people from all over the place. Bad hermeneutics leads to bad

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Bible study. What about the pillars of the earth? I'm going to have to go much faster.

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Does the earth have pillars? Well, according to Samuel 2 -8, it says the pillars of the earth are the

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Lord's, and on them He has set the world. The flat earther says, well, how can a sphere have pillars?

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Clearly it can. So this must be saying that the earth is flat. But if this verse is literally saying that, then what do these pillars rest on?

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Especially in view of some other Bible verses that say the earth hangs on nothing. But in this case, it hangs on pillars.

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It doesn't make sense. Even more interestingly, you don't have to be a flat earther to believe that the earth has pillars.

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Some creationists who do believe the earth is a sphere believe the earth has pillars under the crust of the earth.

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For example, Dr. Walt Brown believes half of the water is on the surface, while the other half is within the subterranean chamber, supported by thousands of pillars of granite resting on basalt.

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So having pillars doesn't mean that the earth is flat. Besides all that, it's unlikely that 1

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Samuel 2 -8 is trying to give us a lesson about geology. And it's unlikely that it's talking about literal and physical pillars here.

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God is saying that He will raise up the poor and lift up the needy, and that they will inherit a seat of honor.

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The pillars speak of leaders in the world in high places. God is saying He will exalt whoever

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He wants to rule in these places. It gets more interesting. Compare the pillars with Job 26 -11, where it says the pillars of heaven tremble and are astounded at His rebuke.

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Does that mean heaven has pillars now, and that these pillars tremble?

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Or are these all poetic statements? If we are going to take 1 Samuel 2 -8 literally, then why not do the same here with Job 26 -11?

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Guys, this is just poetic language by nature. Usually when pillars are mentioned in the

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Bible, it's normally poetic or figurative. This phrase is also used in Psalm 75 -3, when the earth totters and all its inhabitants, it is

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I who keep steady its pillars. So what does it all mean? This probably is talking about leadership, that we will hold them up as they are going through pain and suffering.

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Not us, but He will hold them up as we're going through pain and suffering. But if it's talking about literal pillars, then why are pillars trembling?

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And why are they astounded at God's rebuke? It doesn't make sense. This is not a science lesson. It's lesson on how

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God is looking after His leaders. It makes more sense this way. I'm running out of time.

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So, does the earth have foundation? I do want to talk about that, but I am not sure

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I'm going to get through it all. So let me just see. I am definitely not going to get through it all.

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Does the earth have foundation? I'd like to hear it. Can you hear me? Yes, I said

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I'd like to hear this. You want to hear all of it? Okay, all right. Well, the foundations thing. Sure, let's do the foundation thing.

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Let's do two more. Okay, just two more. Does the earth have foundations? And does this prove the earth is flat?

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Well, the Bible says in Micah 6 .2, here you mount the indictment, which means accusation or charge of the

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Lord, and you enduring foundations of the earth. For the Lord has an indictment against His people, and He will contend with Israel.

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Also in Isaiah 51 .16, and I have put my words in your mouth and covered you in the shadow of my hand, establishing the heavens and laying the foundations of the earth and saying to Zion, you are my people.

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All right, so in Job 38 .4 -6, it also goes on to say, where were you when

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I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me if you have understanding. Who determined its measurements?

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Surely you know. Or who stretched the line upon it? On what were its bases sunk?

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Or who laid its cornerstone? Okay, I'm going to be honest with you here. I have no idea what foundation of flat earth is or what it would look like.

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Is there something under the flat earth that's necessary to keep flat earth stable? What is that?

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Nothing about this verse can possibly be literal. For example, verse 5 says

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God uses a long measuring line that was stretched out. Does that mean that God stretched out a line like a literal measuring tape, like an architect when he created the earth?

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Is that how God created the earth? I mean, last time I checked, He spoke the earth into existence. But if we're going to take this verse literally, then why not say that He used an actual measuring tape?

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Now clearly this verse is not talking about the shape of the planet. This is figurative language. This verse is making a theological point.

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But if you want to take those three verses literally, then why not take the rest of the chapter, all of the chapter 38 literally too?

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And if you did, this is what it's going to look like. But I'm not going to be able to read through all of it, but I'll do just a couple so you can see it, and then it's recorded.

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You can watch it later on. When the morning star sings together—this is the same chapter—and all the sons of God shouted for joy, does that mean that the stars literally sing with actual voices?

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Does God literally have sons like the Mormon gods? I should have put

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Mormon gods in small g. Sorry about that. Who shut in the sea? This is verse 8.

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Who shut in the sea with doors? It burst out from the womb. Now what does that mean?

01:00:05

Does that mean the sea literally have doors? Do the seas have real wombs?

01:00:11

When I made clouds its garments, and thick darkness its swaddling band, does the

01:00:18

Bible mean to tell us that clouds are actual blankets? Okay, so I'm gonna skip through all of that.

01:00:24

There are loads of them. This is the entire chapter. This is the entire chapter, all figurative, and if you took it all literally, you'll come up with any doctrine you possibly want.

01:00:34

If interpreting these verses literally is not reasonable, then why assume it's reasonable to translate the other two verses like that in the middle of the same chapter?

01:00:43

So what does Job mean when he's talking about the foundation of the earth?

01:00:48

Well, with proper hermeneutics, you can see that a solid foundation means that the earth is safe and secure.

01:00:55

You can stand on it. God is getting the credit for the things you take for granted. The language is obviously just poetry.

01:01:03

But that's what happens when you take poetry and interpret it literally. It doesn't do a good

01:01:08

Bible study. That's what worries me when someone is a flat earther. They can't tell poetry from literal language.

01:01:15

That's why we should use sound hermeneutics to avoid making silly and dangerous interpretations.

01:01:22

Okay, this is to do with the circle of the earth. I am going to skip that one. Otherwise, we're not going to get through it.

01:01:31

I've got a lot to say about that. And this came up during my interview as well when I was talking to a flat earther.

01:01:37

He brought this particular point up saying, why don't you believe the earth is flat when the circle means round just like flat earth?

01:01:46

Okay, so I'm going to skip through all of that. And then we're going to go straight to this one.

01:01:52

I'm going to do this one as my last one, I think. Okay, I'll be quick.

01:01:58

In Daniel 14, verses 11 and 20, the tree grew and became strong and its top reached to heaven and it was visible to the end of the whole earth.

01:02:06

The tree you saw which grew and became strong so that its top reached to heaven and it was visible to the end of the whole earth.

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So how can a tree grow so high that it's visible from the end of the whole earth if the earth is not flat, by the way?

01:02:22

Also, how can the top reach the heaven if there is no dome? Without the dome, heaven is indefinitely high, right?

01:02:30

All right, so what is the answer? Well, only one verse earlier gives the answer.

01:02:36

It says, the vision of my head as I lay in bed were these. I saw and behold a tree in the midst of the earth and its height was great.

01:02:45

This is Nebuchadnezzar talking, not Daniel. What is he saying? Do you get it yet?

01:02:51

It's a vision. It's just a dream. That's it. It's not a real tree. It didn't really happen. It wasn't a revelation about the cosmology of the earth.

01:02:58

It's not a flat earth verse. It surprises me when flat earthers bring this. When it said it was visible to the end of the whole earth, it just meant that it was visible everywhere, far away, as in far away.

01:03:12

When it said its top reached the heaven, it just meant that it was very tall. That's it.

01:03:18

But either way, it was a dream. It was not something someone was actually seeing or able to see.

01:03:25

In the same chapter, Daniel interprets the meaning of this vision for Nebuchadnezzar. He said to him that the tree is

01:03:32

Nebuchadnezzar who will be driven away from his people and live with the wild animals.

01:03:38

That's Nebuchadnezzar. It's talking about Nebuchadnezzar himself. But Nebuchadnezzar will get his kingdom back when he acknowledges the

01:03:44

Most High and acknowledges that he, God, is sovereign over everything.

01:03:51

Now tell me something. If the tree is literally true and the tree is literally so tall that everyone can see it from everywhere in the world, which can also reach to the top of the dome, then the flat earther will also have to accept that the tree is literally

01:04:05

Nebuchadnezzar himself, right? It will be him himself, because that's what Daniel said. He said the tree is

01:04:11

Nebuchadnezzar. Would the flat earther accept that? No. Not only that, but if this is true, wouldn't a tall tree like that, which reaches the dome, run into trouble by crashing into the sun and moon as they orbit around the earth below the dome?

01:04:26

It doesn't make sense. I think this is worth doing. It's a very quick one.

01:04:32

Revelation 1 -7. Look, he is coming with the clouds and every eye will see him. The flat earther would say this proves the earth is flat.

01:04:39

Otherwise, how else could everyone see him? So what is the answer? Well, all you need to get the answer is to read the rest of the verse.

01:04:47

Just read the whole verse. It says, even those who pierce them. So everyone will see him, including those who pierce them who are dead, or who are dead here.

01:04:57

Do you get it? So this is obviously a supernatural event. Not only that, but Revelation 11 -9 talks about the two witnesses who are killed.

01:05:05

It says, then those from the people, tribes, tongues, and nations will see their dead bodies three and a half days and not allow their dead bodies to be put into graves.

01:05:17

Okay, so these dead bodies are on the ground. They are not floating in the clouds. How can everyone see those bodies on the ground?

01:05:26

Right? I'm talking about if the earth is flat, how are they going to solve this problem? There are going to be hills in the way, mountains, houses, cars, people, and trees.

01:05:35

You're not going to see somebody on the ground that far away. How can somebody in India ever be able to see the anyone in Jerusalem on the floor, even if the earth is flat?

01:05:45

How do you think the flat earthers will answer this? They'll say, well, this is probably—maybe we'll see them all on TV. You know, if that's the case, then why couldn't that be the answer for Revelation 1 -7 earlier that we saw, too?

01:05:58

So it doesn't have to be flat earth for it to be true. Okay, this is—my final thoughts is that—I'm not going to go through this.

01:06:08

I'm going to go through this very quickly. Basically, if you want flat earth, if you can interpret every verse literally to come up with flat earth, you're going to be able to interpret these verses to mean whatever you want them to mean.

01:06:20

For example, when the Lord, you are the portion of my inheritance and my cup, that means God is a utensil.

01:06:27

Or if you shall cover you with his feathers and under his wings you shall take refuge, then you take it literally, and that means

01:06:35

God is a bird with feathers, and so on. And then also, of course, if he's a door, then he's made of wood and a handle, and if he's a shepherd, then he's a shepherd, and we are literal sheep.

01:06:45

And if it—he said I'm the vine, in which case he's made of a tree with roots and trunk and real branches.

01:06:53

All right, so we're going to finish this off and say this. Does the Bible teach the earth is flat?

01:06:59

I don't think so. I hope you found this helpful. If you have any questions, this is what I'm here for, so I hope to hear from you.

01:07:05

I will stop sharing, and then you tell me if you have any questions. Well, that was really good.

01:07:11

Thank you. I wish we had more time. I know it's very late for you, but it's late for me, too.

01:07:18

It's like— I would happily go through this through the night, but I wanted to respect timing, which

01:07:24

I don't do very well. Well, I'm—I told

01:07:29

Terry in a message that I am—I'm usually in bed by 10 o 'clock.

01:07:35

I said, but I am doing my best to stay awake, a little caffeine, so I can hear it. So, okay,

01:07:41

Terry, go ahead. All right, so we have some questions. Now, I know that your presentation was focused on the—on what the

01:07:51

Bible has to say about the shape of the earth, and just as a reminder for those of—of our—of those in our audience, either live or—or watching after the fact, we did have, three years ago,

01:08:04

Pat Roy came and talked to us about the science of it, and I know that you also, John, know about some of the science.

01:08:10

In fact, you were there that evening, and you asked him some questions, too, so—so we do have some science -y questions that we're hoping that you'll tackle with us.

01:08:20

So—but to start off with, so we know that the Bible says that when— when two or more witnesses give an account, then we can trust them.

01:08:28

So we have a lot of Christian astronauts who have been to the moon, or they've been in space, and so that's one of the things that we want to address.

01:08:40

Like, one of the questions is, how do you deal with people who believe that no one ever landed on the moon?

01:08:46

And specifically, what about people who actually work in the aeronautic field?

01:08:53

Well, I actually had this prepared earlier, and I do want to share it with you, because I think this is going to be helpful to you guys.

01:09:01

I didn't have time to include it, because there's just lack of time. So let me share—let me share the screen, and then

01:09:09

I'll show you what I'm thinking about. So I'm sharing this one.

01:09:17

Okay. All right. You guys see fake moon landing conspiracy at the top?

01:09:24

Yes. Okay. So the flat earthers are heavily invested in promoting the idea that the moon landing is fake, and they use it to prove that the earth is flat.

01:09:36

For some reason, they think this conspiracy is unique to the flat earth belief. Surprisingly, it isn't.

01:09:42

It was introduced more than 46 years ago, in 1976, by a guy called

01:09:47

Billy Kaysing. Here's the information. An early and influential book about the subject of a moon landing conspiracy—we never went to the moon,

01:09:58

America's $30 billion swindle—was self -published in 1976 by this guy,

01:10:03

Bill Kaysing, a former US Navy officer with a Bachelor of Arts in English.

01:10:10

Despite having no knowledge of rockets or technical writing, Kaysing was hired as a senior technical writer in 1956 by Rocketdyne, the company that built the

01:10:21

F -1 engine used on the Saturn V rocket. So this guy was not an expert.

01:10:28

He just wrote this thing and became famous. He served as head of the technical publication unit at the company propulsion field laboratory until 1963.

01:10:42

The many allegations in Kaysing's book effectively began discussion of the moon landing being faked.

01:10:49

The book claimed that the chance of a successful crew landing on the moon was calculated to be 0 .0017%,

01:10:56

and that despite close monitoring of the USSR, it would have been easier for NASA to fake the moon landing than to really go there.

01:11:06

All right, so the Flat Earthers jumped on the bandwagon four years later. So this is how it started.

01:11:12

In 1980—by the way, that guy wasn't a Flat Earther—in 1980, the

01:11:17

Flat Earth Society accused NASA of faking the landing, arguing that they were staged by Hollywood with Walt Disney sponsorship, based on a script by Arthur C.

01:11:29

Clarke and directed by Stanley Kubrick. So the history is interesting, but whether the moon landing was fake or not does not make a difference to whether the

01:11:40

Earth is flat. Let's just start with that, because the focus on today is whether the

01:11:45

Earth is flat. Some people who believe in a globe Earth also think the moon landing is fake.

01:11:51

I mean, I've met loads of these people. In case you're interested, one of the reasons why Flat Earthers say the moon landing is fake is because the moon is some sort of projection.

01:11:59

You can't land on the projection, so clearly it's a fake. Other Flat Earthers say no one could go to the moon because of the

01:12:09

Van Allen Belt that surrounds the Earth on the path to the moon, because it would give a high dosage of radiation that astronauts would not survive.

01:12:19

But NASA released a paper saying, according to the radiation dosimeters carried by Apollo astronauts, their total dosage for the entire trip to the moon and return was not more than two rads over six days.

01:12:36

That's very little, but how much would kill you? Well, a lethal radiation dosage is 300 rads in one hour.

01:12:44

So unless they're lying, then there is no danger to the astronauts. That should basically cause any problems, so that should really settle it.

01:12:53

But what does fascinate me is this. This really fascinates me. If the Earth is flat, then there would be no

01:13:00

Van Allen Belt. I want you to hear me right here. The Van Allen Belt can only exist if the

01:13:08

Earth is a globe. So to use the Van Allen Belt as a reason why they couldn't have gone to the moon is strange, because by using it and proving it, they admit that the

01:13:20

Van Allen Belt exists. But if the Van Allen Belt exists, then Flat Earth is false.

01:13:25

That's mind -boggling for me. I just don't know why they do this. Now think about this. For example,

01:13:31

I don't believe the ice wall at the edges of the Earth exists, like the Flat Earthers tell us, any more than the

01:13:37

Flat Earther believes that you can't go to the moon, right? Same thing.

01:13:43

But imagine if I tried to prove that I can't go to the ice wall because of the army that's guarding it, which the

01:13:50

Flat Earther keeps telling me about. Wouldn't that be an admission that Flat Earth is right, because there's an army guarding it?

01:13:57

It doesn't make sense. And this is the same here. Here's a Christian who I met in church personally, giving his testimony, going around churches, giving his testimony about Jesus when

01:14:07

I lived in Germany for two or three years. He spoke in English and they translated to German.

01:14:13

He spoke about his experience going to the moon. I think it was around about the mid -1980s.

01:14:19

I need to ask my wife to confirm the time. Wikipedia says Charles Moss Duke Jr.,

01:14:25

this guy, is an American former astronaut, United States Air Force, officer, and test pilot.

01:14:32

As lunar module pilot of Apollo 16 in 1972, he became the 10th and youngest person to walk on the moon at the age of 36 years and 201 days.

01:14:45

Now, since he's a Christian, I am inclined to believe his testimony, unless I'm going to call him a liar.

01:14:50

Even Wikipedia admits that he's a born -again Christian, and he and his wife, Dorothy, speak to audiences regarding their faith and its effect on their marriage.

01:15:01

So, I mean, it's unlikely that this guy is going around churches and being a deceitful liar, and to be a

01:15:09

Christian. Now, having said that, even if the moon landing is fake, it doesn't make a difference.

01:15:14

Both flat earthers and some globe earthers say the moon landing is fake. I believe they're both wrong.

01:15:20

I don't think it's a fake, but obviously everybody's entitled to their opinion.

01:15:26

Now, did that help for now? Because that's my first go -to place is, you're calling

01:15:32

Christian astronauts liars now, and that's beyond acceptable. Our ministry has, an astronaut has spoken to us several times,

01:15:43

Colonel Jeffrey Williams. Isn't that who that is, Joyce, Diane, Jeffrey Williams?

01:15:49

I think so. I'll be at the museum on Saturday, so I'll check and see. Okay. Yeah, he came to the museum before and spoke for us.

01:15:59

And he published a book with a lot of photos from the International Space Station, and he did not come off as a liar to me.

01:16:07

Yeah. Yeah, because I asked that question because my mom, growing up, she always believed in God, always believed, you know, talked about Israel, always talked about the end times, and she worked in the aerospace.

01:16:22

And now she's like, oh, well, I think it could be true that the earth could be flat, and maybe we didn't go to the moon.

01:16:29

And I'm like, unless she's going senile or something else, I mean, that's the only, you know,

01:16:35

I just wondered, how do you deal with somebody that has changed their beliefs like that, you know?

01:16:42

I think personally, it's really hard to change somebody's belief like that. But normally, my go -to place when they deny the moon landing is to say,

01:16:51

I want to hear you say this. I believe that all these Christians who have been to the moon or to space are actually liars.

01:16:58

I want to hear you say this, because if you're going to call everybody and everything a lie, then there is no basis for our conversation.

01:17:05

I cannot have a conversation with someone who's going to claim that every point

01:17:13

I make couldn't possibly be true, because then we can't arrive to truth that way. And apparently one of the things that compounds it is that supposedly we've heard that some astronauts are coming out and saying, oh yeah, we made it up.

01:17:31

But I mean, I don't know if you've seen any reports to corroborate their claims.

01:17:37

I've only seen a viral video that made a big claim saying that here is this astronaut who's hiding the truth.

01:17:44

And when I watched it, it didn't look like he was hiding the truth. What looked like happened is this guy came to interview him saying it's fake, it's fake, and he wound him up so much the guy punched him, which

01:17:55

I didn't see coming. But they took that punch as he's trying to hide something.

01:18:01

And that went viral as if it supported the idea that the whole landing was fake.

01:18:07

But I've not seen any other where that actually an astronaut coming all out.

01:18:12

I heard one flat earther say that an ex -employee of NASA admitted that he was employed for the of painting the dome.

01:18:26

So I mean, people can say anything. And that is something that would get them lots of attention.

01:18:34

Oh, look, I painted the earth. Honest. How long would that taken him?

01:18:41

It's bigger, wider than the actual surface of the earth, the dome is covering the whole earth, it's doing it in a dome shape.

01:18:51

So it's got more space. I mean, I don't know. Pretty fancy scaffolding too.

01:19:00

Okay. Okay, John, we're gonna do two more questions. Actually, I think we have three more questions if Robin will let us in if you're willing to keep staying up with us.

01:19:12

So you've studied a lot of the positions of the Flat Earth Society and people.

01:19:20

So you're gonna be the flat earth believer and I'm gonna ask you some challenging questions.

01:19:27

I'm the flat earth believer, am I? Yes. Okay. All right. So how thick is the earth?

01:19:36

Right. I can answer that question for you because that came as part of my interview with the flat earther that I asked.

01:19:41

I said, how thick is the earth and what's underneath it? And he said, John, one of the problems we have as flat earthers is that we have no money to go out there and investigate or spend money investigating all these things.

01:19:56

All the money belongs with all the liars at NASA who are rich and they have all the finances to do what they have to do.

01:20:02

We don't have anything, therefore we don't know. But we know it's there. The evidence is that they know it's there or they don't know what's there.

01:20:15

All right. Well, I mean, I can't argue with that. I mean, that's like the argument of ignorance.

01:20:24

All right. So the fallacy of ignorance. Okay. Next question,

01:20:30

John. Yes. How do you account for the fact that the ancient Greeks knew that the earth is a sphere and they measured it with a high degree of accuracy based on the shadows of wells hundreds of miles from each other?

01:20:45

Yeah. But you see, despite their calculation, which we obviously don't accept as flat earthers, there were loads of people that came afterwards that didn't believe that the earth was a globe.

01:20:56

So clearly they weren't convinced by these arguments themselves. Isn't that the straw man argument that Jason Lyle talks about?

01:21:08

Yes. Don't push me too hard because I'll collapse very quickly. Because I'm sold that idea.

01:21:16

It's kind of like saying I don't believe a single photo and then you turn around and say, well, isn't that unreasonable?

01:21:22

And now I don't know what to say to that. But of course it is unreasonable. In fact,

01:21:30

I actually went around doing those tests with a stick and shadow and everything. I mean, it's irrefutable.

01:21:38

You get the shadows you expect to get exactly as per our conventional ideas of how far the sun is and how big it is.

01:21:47

The results always match what we know. But the flat earthers apparently don't do it. I mean, think about it.

01:21:54

The sun is only 32 miles and 2 ,000 miles high, only 32 miles in diameter.

01:22:00

So if you are 3 ,000 miles away from the sun, it should be half the size. But when you look at the sun, it's never half the size.

01:22:08

It's always the same size, no matter where it is in the sky. But if the flat earth is right, then the sun should be changing size and changing speed, because when it's further away, it should appear slow, and it's close by, it should go really fast.

01:22:22

When you present the flat earther with all these facts, they just dismiss it. I mean,

01:22:28

I gave the flat earther, the guy I interviewed, some real good questions for him to deal with, and he said, well,

01:22:33

I don't know. I don't know the answers to those. I'll go and check, but I won't change my mind no matter what.

01:22:40

So it's a really hard conversation, and once you're in it, there is nothing you can do to convince them.

01:22:47

Yeah. Okay. All right, flat earther John, one more question. Well, maybe a couple more if we can.

01:22:54

All right, so how do you account for the measured difference of gravity at sea level versus at high elevations?

01:23:05

Look, you don't understand how buoyancy and density works. That's your problem, see, because at high elevation, you have less air.

01:23:14

So clearly, buoyancy and density kicks in, and you get different weights depending on where you're standing, you uneducated

01:23:20

Christian. Okay. I'm trying to see which argument

01:23:26

Dr. Jason Lyle would say that is. Yeah, this is definitely a good, and we know that you follow him as well, and his logic curriculum.

01:23:35

So this could be a very good exercise for logic students.

01:23:40

So we're not focused on that tonight, so we don't have a whole lot of time, but we just, as people who don't believe that the earth is flat, we would like to know where they're coming from.

01:23:51

So these are just some questions that we're throwing at you, and then we can take them from there.

01:23:57

Yeah, I want to ask you a question. I want to ask you a question as a flat earther. I want to see what you're going to do with that. Okay. The Bible says the earth shall not be moved.

01:24:06

Do you believe the earth goes around and moving around in a cycle around the sun? I do believe that the earth goes around the sun.

01:24:15

What about the Bible when it says the earth does not move? What are you going to do now? Well, I would have to read it.

01:24:23

I am stumped. You can change.

01:24:29

It also says the psalmist shall not be moved. She said it also says that the psalmist shall not be moved.

01:24:39

That's right. He does say I shall not be moved. So clearly moved is not in the same sense of physically moving places.

01:24:46

It must mean it in a different sense. Well done. You mean it's not cemented to the flat earth?

01:24:52

The psalmist is not cemented to the flat earth. So it can't be moved. Everything rotates around the psalmist.

01:25:00

So that's the equivocation fallacy. I did spot that one. Nice one. Well done. All right.

01:25:06

And then I was just thinking of the song I shall not be moved. But okay. Next, John, my flat earth friend.

01:25:14

You are in Europe, and we're in the United States. And for you, the sun is going to come up much sooner.

01:25:21

So that means that it'll be light for you, but dark for us. But in a flat earth, wouldn't it be all the same?

01:25:28

No, mainly because you uneducated Christians don't know how flat earth works.

01:25:35

What you have is like a torch, which is the sun, and it's pointing literally in the space that it's pointing at.

01:25:43

And therefore, anything outside that area is dark, and everything inside that area is light.

01:25:49

I hope you got educated. Okay. I have a question for the flat earther.

01:25:58

Bring it on. How do the eclipses work on a flat earth? Why do we always see a round shadow of the earth from any angle?

01:26:08

You guys think you know much about the moon. You know nothing about the moon. The truth is, the moon is just a projection.

01:26:14

It's its own light. And clearly, as it goes through the cycle, it has the different shapes that it comes into, and then it goes in and out of it.

01:26:26

And clearly, that's how the moon works. But you Christians think the moon lights up from the sun and all that nonsense.

01:26:34

Because sometimes we can see the sun, we can see the moon and the sun at the same time in the sky.

01:26:40

See? You guys are all confused. I just saw that a few weekends ago.

01:26:45

I bought those glasses and I looked at the moon in front of the sun and it was amazing. And they both looked round to me.

01:26:52

Yeah, not only that, but sometimes when you look at the moon, it looks huge. How is the moon changing shape so much?

01:26:59

You look at it, it looks huge. And sometimes it looks small. How on earth is it changing shape and that dramatically if it is hundreds of thousands of miles away?

01:27:11

They have good projection equipment there at the edge of the earth where the army is protecting the end of the earth from the cats.

01:27:19

Right. Wait a minute. Did I have no impact on the moon thing?

01:27:26

Have I? Anybody? I'm just thinking about cats pushing everything off the edge of a table.

01:27:34

Wouldn't they do that if it was a flat earth? Get all the lions out there trying to get everything? OK, I'm done.

01:27:40

No, no, there's there are armies around the edges that stops people coming there and there are big high ice walls to prevent it from causing any kind of disaster like that.

01:27:53

Clearly, whoever put it together knew what it was doing. Jimbo's coming up. Wait, they have they have trips to take you to Antarctica.

01:28:05

You go there and see for yourself. And if you're right, I'll reimburse your trip. I can solve

01:28:11

I can solve the problem without that, I'll be honest with you. But yes, I would like to take you on that offer.

01:28:18

OK, so we are. Yeah, sorry. We should probably stop recording.

01:28:24

Yeah. Well, everybody, please go ahead and mute yourselves at this time.

01:28:30

Normally, we don't we don't have our audience participate on the public. So I want to remind everybody that we are public.

01:28:37

And if you could go ahead and mute yourselves at this time, we're going to wrap things up. And then I think we might be able to convince

01:28:43

John, since he got an extra hour before we did to stay up a little bit longer with us back in the

01:28:50

Zoom room. But let's go ahead and finish things out. And and in all seriousness, we've had a lot of fun and lightheartedness, but we do want to we do want to be mindful of the fact that a lot of people who have chosen to believe this flat earth theory are our brothers and sisters in Christ.

01:29:09

And and it is true that there are things that happen in this world because of Satan and because the enemy that that we know that we're not always told the truth by our governments and and by other agencies.

01:29:24

So it is right that as Christians, we should be discerning and that sometimes we should question some things.

01:29:33

But in some cases, maybe some Christians have gone too far or maybe they're misinterpreting some things.

01:29:41

So with compassion, we want to point out. And John, you did a great job of this tonight from the lens of God's word, what

01:29:49

God what the Bible says and why some of those verses could be misunderstood, but but how we view them differently.

01:29:57

So we do appreciate that. And I know that you've also recorded a video about the science of it.

01:30:03

So can you remind everybody how they can find more information about about you in general and your ministry and also specifically the flat earth material that you have available?

01:30:16

All right. First of all, I also want to say that all all the lightheartedness was meant in love.

01:30:23

We were having fun. And for those people who don't know, I have a sister who's a flat earther. So I do love her.

01:30:29

And I love all our brothers and sisters who obviously are subscribing to this.

01:30:34

But we want that God will open up your eyes and for you to have an open mind to check it out properly so that you remain in truth.

01:30:44

So, yes, you will find information about our ministry by going to YouTube.

01:30:50

You type Living Waters Europe in the search bar in YouTube. You can type Living Waters Europe if you're in a browser that will come up as well.

01:31:00

If you don't type Europe, you're going to get Living Waters in America. So you might not end up on our website. If you want to know more about the videos that we make, obviously,

01:31:09

YouTube is the best place to go for that. And all you got to do is put Living Waters Europe and Flat Earth after that or go into Living Waters Europe channel and type in the search bar within that Flat Earth and that should come up.

01:31:22

So if you have and there's at least two videos, one of them is the interview I had with a flat earther, which was very nice, very amicable, very nicely done.

01:31:32

And then also we have the normal documentary style that we did for people to get more information.

01:31:38

And if they want more than that, they can email us to admin at LivingWatersEU .com.

01:31:49

LivingWatersEU .com. Admin at. Perfect. And just to clarify, Living Waters, this is the same ministry as Ray Comfort.

01:31:57

Ray Comfort is the president or founder of Living Waters and he has his team and we're big fans and supporters of them as well.

01:32:06

And we've been blessed to be able to meet John, who is part of the, who oversees the

01:32:13

Europe branch of the same ministry. So that's been a blessing. And again, you can find our other

01:32:22

Flat Earth presentation from three years ago that was done by Pat Roy by visiting our webpage.

01:32:29

You can go to tinyurl .com forward slash CF Santee.

01:32:36

That's C like creation, F like fellowship. Santee is spelled S -A -N -T -E -E.

01:32:41

And you can find there a list of our upcoming speakers and then also a list, a link to our archives.

01:32:48

And speaking of upcoming speakers, next week, we're going to have Nate Loper returned to speak to us.

01:32:53

He was here with us last year. This year, he's going to come and talk to us about geology and the coastal formation.

01:33:01

So if you travel up the coast, probably just about any coast,

01:33:06

I've traveled up the West coast and we saw lots of rocks out in the water. And it's interesting to wonder how they came to be.

01:33:14

So he's going to explain that to us next week. So we invite you all to come. And with that, we're going to go ahead and sign off the public stream for tonight.