Debate Man is justified through Faith Alone by the Imputed Righteousness of Christ, 8/7/2021

Debate Format, Introductions, and Opening Banter

Hey guys Sorry guys, it's just because I'm an idiot I'm very stupid. You know, I got mental issues. I actually went on the long wrong live stream. Hold on guys. I Gotta invite everyone back. I went on the wrong live stream guys Actually, sorry because I'm an idiot guys.

I'm very stupid being stupid. I Went on the long rights along Wrong live stream a little sorry what an idiot I am boy, man. I make stupid look smart. Hold on I gotta send them the links again. Oh boy.

I'm such an idiot, man. Why am I was I like was I born stupid or did I have to work on it? There you go. Hold on. I Just want to jump figuring out. Am I was I born stupid? Was it just. Okay, what do you think you guys think I was born stupid or do you think maybe I had to work out it or Combination of both.

I was born stupid. But then throughout time I became even stupider and stupidity became encrusted in my DNA. All right, yeah, hey now we're at the right channel man, what's up, man? Sorry, sorry about that sir.

Sorry folks invite folks we got about 15 second delay. By the time you hear some we're just waiting for Matt to show up and we're waiting for everyone else. I really suspect I was telling them sir. I Was you know, I was telling them.

I'm I think I was born stupid and in throughout time. I become encrusted in me. All right Prophet Google, I'm gonna put you in the background and I'm gonna bring you up when we're beginning ready to begin now folks I'm gonna let the debaters introduce themselves.

I'm assuming Did you guys agree since it's man is justified through faith alone. Matt is taking the affirmative so he goes first works. You there? Okay. All right now Matt if you want, can you give yourself a minute or two to introduce what you do?

So you're gonna do me intro him intro then me open.

Yes, you can do intro and then intro and then we begin and I'll give the format. All right, sounds good.

All right, my name is Matt slick it's my real name born with it learn to run as a kid and was quite skinny so I have a good heart from all that exercise and I'm a Christian apologist and the Protestant Calvinist persuasion.

I've been working on the karm website For almost 26 years. It's had over 147 million visitors. I've written Nine books including one humor book and a sci-fi novel and some other stuff and I've been doing radio for over 16 years five days a week and We got a newsletter.

We got a lot of stuff and I love talking theology and I love discussing things particularly with atheists. That's that's where I really love doing is talking and debating atheists and I'll be debating on the Trinity with oneness next week and the week after and stuff like that, so I live in Idaho and.

That's where I'm at. There you go, I can't wait for that debate to see you debate the oneness now our brother Seraphim if you can introduce yourself and If you have a website or a YouTube channel that you want to announce and we'll put all the links to your sites in Description box the Lord willing as soon as.

This is not good brother.

Yes, so my youtube name is cabane. The URL is youtube .com slash cabane the Christian. For a long time at least what seems like a long time for me. My main interest has been Theology and coming to a unified interpretation of the world through the lens of Jesus Christ because when I was 13 or 14 I went through a major crisis of faith where it seemed to me like Christianity might not actually be true and since that time I have step-by-step journeyed back into the faith and Into the position where everything in the creation Seems more beautiful more rich through the lens of the glory of Jesus Christ and especially important to me is the unity of the scriptures.

Because it was apprehending the absolute unity which pervades the whole Bible from Genesis to Revelation. Which really at a deep level made me see that everything bears witness to the glory of God in Jesus Christ.

So I also have an interest in engaging with atheists naturalists in showing how? Christianity makes sense of the world but within that biblical Framework, I'm interested in debating and dialoguing with Protestants and trying to argue that the tradition as it is understood by the Orthodox Church really does play a clarifying role in making sense of scripture even on its own terms.

So that's what I'm into. I also have a blog on tumblr of all places. That's cabane 1552. .tumblr .com and cabane means absolutely nothing. It was I invented it as a lego .com username when I was in fourth grade.

So it means nothing it was based on kaboom because I thought explosions were cool. So I just wanted to throw that out there because it is a bit of an odd username.

Okay. Now that said just to give you the format and even before I do that There's about a 15 second delay From when they say something and it reaches you on the live stream. So be that as it may we're gonna start up start up with 10 minute opening statements followed up by 10 minute rebuttals and then there's going to be a free-for-all from anywhere from 45 minutes to an hour the debaters can decide the exact time and.

Then we're gonna have five minute closing statements and then Lord willing Q &A but the questions must be related to the topic and one thing I want to advise all the Christians in the channel. No ad hominems.

No attacks. No insults. You can have a passionate debate in the comment section. But keep it respectful and do not insult any of the debaters or mock any of the debate debaters. Respect them for the sake of the Lord Jesus Christ, and we're gonna have profit Google timing the Opening statements rebuttals and Closing statements.

So profit Google. I'm gonna bring you up and when he gets to the five-minute mark announced in five minutes and then one minute and then time and They said that even if they go over time by 30 seconds, no biggie.

So with that said may the triune God be glorified. I'm gonna bring profit Google. Here you go, and me and Cobain will be in the background.

All right, I guess I'm on as soon as he hits the go I.

Guess I'll just go. Proper Google let him know what he can go say go and start timing. Oh ready.

I'm ready and let's go. All right. Well, first of all, thank you for having me on and I hope to be able to represent what I believe the biblical position on justification imputation and we'll see so. It is either the case that the Christian is justified through faith alone in the imputed righteousness of Christ.

Or it is not the case. I Affirm that it is the case and I will show it from Scripture. My opponent will have to demonstrate from Scripture that we are not justified through faith alone by the imputed righteousness of Christ.

Logically, if it is not by faith alone in Christ's work Then it must be be must be by faith and something that we do. Now according to Eastern Orthodox sources justification deals with quote Man's communion in the risen body of Christ in the divine life that is on deification by grace close quote.

I have the documentation where I got these from the different sources and That justification open quote deals with how a person comes into and maintains a right relationship with God. Justification is accomplished at baptism and maintained through a life of obedience to God and confession of sins close quote.

I America website that quote not only loving deeds. But also the sacraments of baptism and the Eucharist are decisive to salvation close quote. So in EEO Eastern Orthodox justification is obtained through communion with Jesus and baptism and is maintained through a life of obedience and Participation of the Eucharist.

Now, it's not quite this simple. But for this this debate, that's where I'm going to be working from and attacking. So I searched about 20 Eastern Orthodox sources for information on imputation. The best I found was in the Orthodox study Bible prepared under the auspices of the academic community of st. Athanasius Academy of Orthodox theology.

Jack Norman sparks PhD. In its commentary on Romans 4 11 through 12 found on page 15 49. It says that impute means reckoned or rendered. That's good. Now that is the Greek word legitimacy which occurs many times in the Greek New Testament.

Other translations render it as counted credited imputed a. Particular interest in our discussion is Romans 4 1 through 6 where the word occurs several times in another Eastern Orthodox Bible called the Eastern Orthodox Bible of the New Testament.

Romans 4 1 through 6 says this. What then shall we say that Abraham our father according to the flesh has found? Certainly if Abraham was justified by works. He has something to boast about although not before God.

For what does the scripture say. Abraham believed God and was accounted. Its note here says reckoned or credited. Accounted to him as righteousness. Now to the one who works the reward is not considered as legitimate as a grace.

But as something owed. But to the one who does not work but believes in the one who justifies in godly. It is faith that is accounted for righteousness. Even as David also pronounces blessing on the man to whom God attributes righteousness apart from works.

Due to time time constraints. I can't focus on a whole bunch of stuff out of that. But I'll be focusing mainly on verse 5 the EOB. Eastern Orthodox Bible says. But to the one who does not work but believes in the one who justifies the ungodly it is faith that is accounted for righteousness.

All right, I'm notice that Romans 4 5 teaches justification by faith alone. In that verse Paul mentions faith and works. He negates works when you have two things and one is removed the other ones by itself.

He says to the one who does not work but believes his faith is credited as righteousness. Since works is removed. We have faith that's left by itself. It is alone. It is that faith that is counted for righteousness now incidentally.

When James says that we're not justified by faith alone. The context that he's speaking of is justification before people and just and I've gone over this hundreds of times. I can discuss that at length.

James 2 18 you show me your works. I'll show you mine by or she your faith. I'll show you mine by my works and that's what is going on there now. Furthermore this faith which we are justified by is the faith that God grants us.

The Eastern Orthodox Bible says in Philippians 1 29 for the sake of Christ. You have been granted the privilege not only to believe in him But also to suffer on his behalf. The phrase have been granted is the aorist passive indicative.

The aorist deals with past tense. Passive means they receive the action. Indicative means that the action is a fact. Therefore our believing is granted to us by God. Now I ask is this faith that is granted to us by God sufficient for justification.

Of course it is it comes from God. That's why the Bible says in Romans 5 1 and it's remaining having therefore been justified by faith. If it is by faith that is not based on works that we've done in righteousness as Titus 3 5 clarifies.

But EO resources tell me that justification is accomplished at baptism and maintained through a life of obedience and confession of sins. The aorist in Romans 5 19 we have something that's really interesting because again the aorist passive Indicative occurs.

It says there Romans 5 19 indeed as through one man's disobedience the many were made sinners. The Greek phrase were made sinners is also the aorist passive indicative. Which means that God is the one or it's me.

The action is performed by somebody else upon someone else and This is what's happening here. So the aorist means that the many were made sinners by Adam's action by Adam's sin. This is the imputation of Adam's sin to us who are the many.

The Greek Orthodox Bible says Romans 5 15. It says by the sin of the one the many died. And in verse 18. It says By the sin of the one the many died. That was that was it. Oh and through verse 18 as through one sin all men were condemned.

So this is exactly what the imputation of Adam's sin to us means. Therefore the imputation of sin is biblical. Sin is a transgression of the law of God first. John 3 4 says sin is lawlessness. Law deals with legality and sin is a legal problem, though.

It's not only a legal problem, but we're only talking with the legal aspect imputation right now. Furthermore Jesus equates sin with legal debt and he says our Father who art in heaven Hallowed be thy name in Matthew 6 9 when he starts that Perry goes to verse 12.

But he says forgive us our debts. Ophelia ma in the parallel of a Luke 11 for he says forgive us our sins. So Jesus equates sin with legal debt in Colossians 2 14 in the Eastern Orthodox Bible says wiping out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us.

He has set it aside. Nailing it to the cross now the NASB. I love because it says having canceled out the certificate of debt. Now what is that certificate of debt? It's the Greek word Chiragra fun. It means a handwritten statement, especially a record of financial accounts.

It's a handwritten IOU of legal indebtedness. I have several lexical quotes I can give you if you want to see this later on. That's what it means. So Jesus equated sin with legal debt. Remember he said our Father heart and women weren't in heaven.

He said Forgive us our debts in Matthew 6 12, but in Luke 11 for he says forgive us our sins. Jesus equates sin with legal debt. The sin debt is what he is. He bore in his body in the cross. After all sin is breaking the law of God.

1st John 3 4. So when you break the law of God you have incurred a legal sin debt. Furthermore in 1st Peter 2 24 the Greek Orthodox Bible says in his body in His body he bore in himself our sins on the tree so he bore our sins in his body.

How is it? That Jesus bore our sins in his body on the cross if it is not by legal imputation. Where our sins becomes his sins remember this is important sin is breaking the law of God. 1st John 3 4. Jesus equates sin with legal debt.

In fact on the cross when he was sacrificed. He says in John 19 30 It is finished which means that it's a legal statement of completed legal transaction. Because it's the Greek word to tell us die and it's been found on some ancient tax receipts signifying a legal debt has been paid in full.

He said it is finished. It's paid. It's to tell us die. This is legal talk. Justification is legal imputation is legal propitiation is legal so as The Bible's minute he bore our sins. 2nd Corinthians 521 says that he was made sin on our behalf.

So our sins were imputed to him and he died with them if my opponent disagrees and please explain how sin which is a legal debt according to Jesus. How it's not born in his body in the cross, which is exactly what first Peter 2 24 says.

That's exactly what we believe about imputation. For the more for the more when God grants that we believe like is 129 were justified by faith. Romans 5 1 we have a righteousness. That's not our own is Not wrought through baptism sacraments theosis or obedience.

Instead is a righteousness that comes from God. Philippians 3 9 says in the Eastern Orthodox Bible and be found in him. Not having a righteousness of my own from the law, but through faith in Christ. The righteousness was just from God by faith.

So the Bible teaches justification by faith alone through the righteousness that comes from God that is granted to us by faith alone. Amen.

Beautiful job Prophet Google, I'm impressed. And Matt phenomenal opening same time allotted to our brother combined. I used to pronounce it cabani. So forgive me like Coco Cabana. So it's cabane. All right now Prophet Google is gonna time you for 10 minutes.

You're doing excellent John, by the way prophet I just want to say some. Your voice is splendid. You are meant for videos, honestly. So glory to Jesus may God bless you. So you can your voice. I'm gonna have to bring you more more often with me now I'm gonna recede and then when he tells you begin you begin.

All right, I want to thank Matt for agreeing to engage in this all-important discussion and I want to thank Sam for hosting it. I want to begin my argument tonight by quoting two passages from the letters of the Romans.

The first is Romans 8 13 for if you live according to the flesh you will die. But if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live. And next I'm gonna quote Romans 6 21 to 2. But what fruit were you getting at that time?

But from the things of which you are now ashamed the end of those things is death. But now that you have been set free from sin and it becomes slaves of God the fruit that you get leads to Sanctification and its end eternal life.

The Spirit thus joins us with Christ and it is in Christ whom we have new life and it's the life that is lived in Christ which leads intrinsically by its very character to Justification. On the final day my argument tonight will turn entirely on the exegesis of Scripture.

Well, I don't affirm sola scriptura for the sake of argument. I will practice exegesis as if I did and I want to show by that principle that tradition genuinely is a clarifying Instrument in the hand of God for helping us to see what the scriptures really say.

Now foundational to my argument here is The emphasis that my argument and my contest is not with a forensic or legal doctrine of justification. Forensic language after all is all over the Bible and it's especially present in reference to the doctrine of justification.

But forensic language isn't self-interpreting. It is with a particular interpretation of what forensic language entails and the context within which it nests that I have a dispute. There are many different legal traditions and we cannot simply state that justification is legal.

And assume that that explains itself. Now crucial to my point here is the idea that justification and sanctification are coextensive with one another. First Corinthians 611 says thou Art justified thou art washed thou art sanctified.

Into the name of our Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God now is sanctified and washed are coextensive by implication. The same must be true of justification. But why is this the case? Well sanctification is language which is used with reference to holiness specifically ritual holiness.

That's why in the letter to the Hebrews the word is used all the time because sanctification deals with Consecration in the house of God. And what is the law court of God? Well, the law court of God is nested it is situated within his throne room.

And that throne room is the inner sanctuary of the temple. That's why when Isaiah is called as a prophet he sees God sitting on his throne. Surrounded by his counselors. This is the law court that we meet in the scriptures.

The law court is that which is situated in the temple. But why does faith justify. It's my contention that Matt's position is actually not that we are justified by faith alone. In fact, his position is that we are not justified by faith at all.

The actual base for our justification according to Matt as I understand it is the imputed righteousness of Christ. It is Christ's active obedience which is counted as ours. And so God behaves with respect to us as if we had lived the life that Christ lived.

Faith does not justify. But it is an instrument by which that imputed righteousness is counted to us. But hebrews 11 6 provides a very different picture of why faith justifies. Hebrews 11 6 says this without faith.

It is impossible to please God for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists. And that he rewards those who seek him. Now the word reward here is the same word group as reward in romans 4 and it comes from genesis chapter 15.

In the septuagint that word is mystos. And so we have here a different perspective on the same subject that is discussed in romans chapter 4. Paul refers to creation ex nihilo in hebrews 11 just as he does in romans 4 and abraham is again Central in hebrews 11 just as it is in romans 4.

A reward is not something that God is obligated to provide to us, but it is likewise not something which is disconnected from the life. Which we actually live. Rather the reward is given in response to a life that is lived.

Well, but it is not an obligatory response. It is a gift. Nevertheless, you might imagine if you do a good job cleaning your room your parents might take you to dinner. But that doesn't mean that they were obligated to do so it is a gift and yet it is connected With a life of good deeds good deeds, which are empowered by the spirit and proceed from faith.

Now that's a very important point as well because uh, matt said That if there are faith and works and works are excluded then by implication. We must be justified by faith alone. Now. The phrase faith alone is can be interpreted in a legitimate way.

But matt also believes that we are justified by grace alone. So someone who wanted to be difficult might say well, are we justified by five minutes remaining? Are we justified by grace or are we justified by faith if they're both alone?

The answer to that would be that they occupy a different position in the structure of justification. And I would say the same thing with respect to faith works are not simply placed beside faith as if they both are in the same Category rather faith is like the muscle which is empowered to lift the weight of salvation.

Now works cannot be placed in the same place that faith is. Faith is the empowering principle behind it and works perfect and complete. Faith according to the power of the spirit. Now very importantly for the new testament christ is the paradigm of justification.

He is the justified one. In order to demonstrate this take a look at first timothy 3 verse 16. Great indeed we confess is the mystery of godliness. He was manifest in the flesh Justified by the spirit seen by angels proclaimed among the nations believed on in the world taken up in glory.

Similarly romans 1 3 to 4 concerning his son who is descended from david according to the flesh. And was declared to be the son of god and that has parallel with the justified by the spirit in power. According to the spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead jesus christ our lord.

And so jesus's justification Is a legal reality. This is where god declares jesus to have lived faithfully. Nevertheless that declaration occurs in and through an ontological transfiguration of his body.

Such that because we are justified by union with christ our forensic justification takes place by that very same ontological principle. Now matt pointed out. I think accurately that sin is very often described in terms of debt.

But what is debt like the question of legal or forensic language? It's not self-explanatory. And my argument is that legal forensic and financial language does not have its own existence independent of the ontological.

That is the actual uncreated life of god, which is communicated to us rather. It is a way of explaining and exegeting the nature of that ontological reality. If you read the new testament, you will find over and over again language of the riches of god's glory.

In the book of revelation jesus says I advise you to buy from me gold refined by fire. And that's the basis for that language of buying and selling which is used throughout the rest of the book. Isaiah 55 does the same sort of thing speaks of buying bread without money.

Well, but what are the riches of god's glory and how do they make up debt? Romans 1 22 to 23 says the following claiming to be wise they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal god. For images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles you become what you worship.

The israel when they worship the golden calf. They become stiff-necked like the golden calf. And when you worship that which does not have life in itself. You enter into the state of death you pass into that ontological state of corruption.

In order to repair that rupture that separation from god We must be joined to jesus christ who is the incarnate god and therefore has the glory of god intrinsically radiant from his person. And thus romans 2 6 to 7 says he will render to each man according to his works to those who are Impatient and well-doing seek for glory and honor that's psalm 8 and immortality.

He will give eternal life. Now some might say that this is just a hypothetical which is fulfilled by no man. But the problem with that is that in many texts throughout the new testament we are given examples of those who are Justified on the final day one of them in romans 2 13 and following itself.

Maybe we'll talk about that a bit later. Glory is riches. That is how the language of god's uncreated life is described. Debt is a way of signifying our rupture from the divine life. We are supposed to be one thing in relation to one minute.

But we are actually something else in relation to god that difference is described as debt. In being joined to christ by the spirit The divine son who has all of the riches of divine glory intrinsically and from eternity.

Everything that is lacking is made up. It is no longer I who live paul says but christ who lives in me. In galatians 2 and in first corinthians 15 not I but the grace of god which is in me. There is not an intrinsic conflict between god and his creature because god is the intrinsic Power behind every act of the creature and it is this rupture Which is described as the record of debt and that is why the record of debt is cancelled by union with he who is infinitely rich.

All our good works through the spirit are transmitted to god through the perfection of jesus who lives in us such that we are not in the flesh. But in the spirit. Thank you Time.

Wow, man phenomenal job. Prophet google and you debaters are doing great. Now i'm going to bring up matt slick. And he's got a 10 minute rebuttal but before I do that for the genius the einstein who said.

Let's spam the comment section. Please if you spam the comment section Then that means people can engage in serious discussion in the comment section. No, please do not spam the comment section. No personal attacks.

No insults. Do not take any shots at the debaters. They are christians who love to try on god and they discreet passionately. Let them do the debate you guys can debate passionately in the comment section.

No spamming and no personal attacks, please. I already lost all my hair. I don't need to lose hair from my nostrils now that said. My brother matt you coming up i'm going in the back and prophet let him know when he begins.

He's got 10 minutes. Let's go. Matt you're muted. You're muted.

No, I was going to say I think you can mute people in the discussion if they become obstreperous. All right. Uh, okay. So here we go um I'm glad that uh cabane admitted. There's a lot of forensic terminology dealing with salvation.

Um, no disrespect meant seriously, I know a lot of people will say no disrespect month and they are disrespectful. But I think that what's happening is that uh, you're not properly dealing with the issue of that forensic terminology.

You're seeing it through a lens of of your tradition. When we talk about the issue of debt jesus himself as I quoted in matthew 6 12 forgive us our debts in Luke 11 4 forgive us our sins jesus specifically equates him with legal debt.

Now the word debt there is ophelia and the word sin is her marty on Ophelia means a legal debt. A legal debt. That's what it means. And so you can look it up. Please do so sin because sin is breaking the law of god.

First john 3 4 we have a legal problem. And again, i'm not saying it's only a legal problem, but we're only focusing on that Aspect right now because of the issue of imputation justification so When we understand that sin is breaking the law of god and jesus was made under the law galatians 4 4 made for a little while lord in the angels hebrews 2 9 and he never sinned first peter 2 24 because First peter 2 22 because he kept the law perfectly.

All right. Yet our sin Became his sin. Now. This is what it says in first peter 2 24. He himself bore our sin In his body on the cross, how is it possible for someone jesus to bear someone else's sin In his body if it's not imputed.

What does it mean specifically to bear his sin in his body? Now if uh Cabane and I go out to dinner. I say cabane. Look, I want to buy you dinner and uh, you know, we go out to a restaurant and I forget my wallet and he's cool guy.

He goes hey here i'll pay for it. My debt is paid for by him. It's transferred to him and in so doing that debt is canceled and it's removed the manager. The restaurant can't come up to me and go you owe the money.

I know he paid it. Legal debts are transferable. Now jesus, excuse me. Paul the apostle says in colossians 2 13 having forgiven us all our transgressions. Verse 14 Having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees which was hostile to us.

He took it out of the way having nailed it to the cross. Certificate of debt is the greek word Chiragraphon it only occurs right there in the entire bible and it means a handwritten iou of legal indebtedness.

Jesus canceled out that legal debt on the cross. How. By bearing our sin in sin imputed to him On the cross and thereby doing that he died with sin the wages in his death. He became sin satan. Corinthians 5 21.

All this legality all this forensic terminology is perfect. Just as it says in romans 4 1 Through 5 it says what shall we say? Then that our father abraham according to the flesh is found. For if abraham was justified by works He has something to boast about but not before god.

For what does this scripture say? Abraham believed god and it was credited to him as righteousness. His belief is what was credited as righteousness not his Theosis. Maintaining positions participation in the sacraments through many years hoping to make it.

No, his faith was credited as righteousness. And then in verse 4 to the one who does it says if you work your wage is not credited as a favor. But what is due. So paul says that works and uh, what's credited.

They're due they're due to each other. But then he goes on he says. But to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly. His faith is credited as righteousness and there it is now in verse 3 of romans 4 Paul says abraham was justified by faith was credited to him as righteousness and he says the same thing.

It's past tense with abraham and present tense with us. Having therefore been justified by faith is why he goes on in romans 5 1 to say having therefore been justified by faith. Because we are justified by faith apart from works now I'm, not saying it's okay to be antinomian and.

And um say we're justified by faith and then we can go sin. That's not the my position. It's not the reformed perspective. Anyone who says that just doesn't understand our relationship with regeneration sanctification.

Justification imputation we could you know, I can clarify that if you're interested sometime in the future. So we are changed creatures who seek to honor god, but our sin is removed by christ at the cross.

It's canceled at the cross not when you believe five minutes remaining. Thank you. Not when you believe. Not when you get baptized. Not when you take Communion not when you do good works notice what it says.

He himself, excuse me, uh, he canceled the certificate of debt. Consisting of decrees which was hostile to us. He took it out of the way having nailed it to the cross. That's what it says. That he took it out of the way having nailed it to the cross now in the e o the eib eib the uh eastern orthodox bible it says uh wiping out the handwriting of ordinances wiping out cancel getting rid of it the handwriting of ordinances handwriting.

Kairagraphon is the greek word care means hand and graphe means writing kairagraphon the handwriting of ordinances the. The uh, uh the debt certificate that we have by breaking the sin. He took care of that at the cross and folks.

It's not removed when you believe you're justified. When you believe it's different than the propitiatory sacrifice that cancels a sin debt. We're justified by faith romans 5 1 and we're justified by the faith that god grants to us philippians 129 now remember I said in Romans 5 19 That it says that the many were made sinners by adam's sin.

Were made is the aorist passive indicative and what that clearly says if you study greek is that the action of adam's sin? Resulted or was taken to or moved upon. The people who were in him his descendants.

That they were made sinners, which means we're born with sinful natures, which I know is something eo denies. But that's what it's saying. It says ephesians 2 3. We're by nature children of wrath. So the aorist passive indicative means that the action of adam's sin is reckoned to us.

It happened to us. That's what it means is what exactly means. The same aorist passive indicative structure is used in philippians 1 29 when it says you have been granted belief. God grants it to you.

Our believing is the work of god. John 6 28 29. We're born again. Not of our own. Will john 1 13 god does this? Now. If this is true. And it is and if it's the case that jesus is the one who bore our sin in his body in the cross.

First peter 2 24 and he canceled the sin that at the cross then the eastern orthodox position has got to deal with the text of scripture. Not tradition and church fathers and all of that. We're not talking about that stuff here.

It's got to go with the word of god. What about romans 4 5 that says it says. To the one who does not work but believes his faith is credited as righteous now. Cobain said, you know faith is not some something that it alone.

Like some substance, of course not. It's used as a word to represent other things. But faith is only as good as who we put it in. We say we're justified by faith. We're not saying it's a material substance.

Now he mentioned something about ontological essence. I would love to have a discussion on the ontological essence relationship of the properties to the ontos. I would love that discussion. I mean get into that very deeply.

I have no problem with that and the issue of regularity. And the transcendentals and all that that undergird it but for now. We say that we're justified by god's grace his unmerited favor. That's not owed us in any way shape or form but by his kindness.